The EE is a unique hybrid that is confuzzles the crap out of me. It's a semi-buffer until 56 and then it becomes an undead nuker. Also more of a healer. It's hard to categorize and even harder to level unless you do it yourself.
So what do people think if EE gets focus, guidance, deathwhisper? At least it would help get EEs into more duos/trios when there's no PP or SE available. I like EEs and feel sorry for them but because of their lack of buffs I think twice before adding one to a party.
Elves are a defensive race, Dark elves are offensive. The problem is that the game revolves mostly around offense. You don't see many people running around in +12 armor or +8 con.
What puzzles me is why SE's get purify and EE's don't. EE's should get party purify or something.
It would be against their nature to give them crit buffs, but I think a crit protecting buff ("Reduces damage taken from critical hits") would be neat.
Heck I could sit all day and dream up new buffs for them. What about a damage absorbtion shield that reduced damage by a fixed amount? Not a whole lot, but something that adds up, like 5-10 points. Or a buff that increases the chance to resist a spell, like a reverse WM.
I've always felt a little bit of pity towards the EE's for their buffs. Resist stun and agility is nice but.. it's nothing to VR+Focus+DW.
Offensive buffs have higher % modifiers than defense. Weapons and their masteries on dds stack for higher offense than armors and their masteries on tanks. Buffs in general are broken.
But EE's definately don't need more buffs. They are a healer oriented recharger for large parties. That's the class design.
All they need to do is boost offense to feature twice, or maybe three times, the value of equivalent offensive buffs - defense, after all, doesn't help you exp considerably faster.
EEs do need more buffs - just defensive ones, en par with Mental Aegis rather than Resist Poison. :p
The EE is a hybrid, not a full healer at all. They don't have GBH, they don't even have GGH - an SE is preferable to a prophet as a buffer in many situations (but not in all), but when would you pick an EE over a bishop as a healer?
Depends on the party. They pick up mana usage buffs, evasion, and shield. They make excellent raid buffers. They make excellent siege support. The best party in game IMO is EE/Prophet/BD/SWS/Warlock/4Hawkeyes. It's the right balance for POF, and choosing the correct buffs make the party more or less invincible. You just have to remember not to buff uselss things...like regen :p
Mostly im wondering that why EE doesn't have GGH even SE has? SE is more like offensive buffer than defensive.
Kinda odd that EE as being Healer doesn't have Group Heals...
Offensive buffs have higher % modifiers than defense. Weapons and their masteries on dds stack for higher offense than armors and their masteries on tanks. Buffs in general are broken.
But EE's definately don't need more buffs. They are a healer oriented recharger for large parties. That's the class design.
actually defense buffs are usually fairly strong, its the critical attack buffs that ruin it. Dance of Fire is just ridiculously strong and so is Zealot on Tyrant (GOOD LORD is it ever strong). Archers, or really any physical-oriented attacker, really aren't that powerful without Dance of Fire. Once Dance of Fire is introduced damage just shoots through the roof, add Song of Hunter and its insane.
As for magic defense (mainly songs) they really do fizzle out some damage from nukers, proof of this is me (not a true DD) will hit nukers for more damage than they hit me for, on average. Take out Dance of Fire and this is totally not the case.
Personally I think Dance of Fire is broken, however without this dance then physical DDs damage shoots much lower than what people are used to and obviously will make nukers superior and would force DDs to use skills to do real damage. In which case NC Soft REALLY needs t lower the MP use on physical skills because as it stands physical skill MP use is ridiculous.
Depends on the party. They pick up mana usage buffs, evasion, and shield. They make excellent raid buffers. They make excellent siege support. The best party in game IMO is EE/Prophet/BD/SWS/Warlock/4Hawkeyes. It's the right balance for POF, and choosing the correct buffs make the party more or less invincible. You just have to remember not to buff uselss things...like regen :p
Hehe Luke likes to maintain the status quo while I prefer to turn it upside down. Anway, you keep looking at end game, siege, and raids. I'm asking for help to make EEs more desirable for everyday grind. Something to help level an EE faster from the start. Maybe some sort of new buff. I'd love to see more EEs running around.
Hehe Luke likes to maintain the status quo while I prefer to turn it upside down. Anway, you keep looking at end game, siege, and raids. I'm asking for help to make EEs more desirable for everyday grind. Something to help level an EE faster from the start. Maybe some sort of new buff. I'd love to see more EEs running around.
I don't like it. I like the exclusivity of a class. If you are nice to others, if you are good in what you are expected to do, you will be able to level. I don't like EE to be just another buffpet, like most Prophets ans SEs are (including a lot of nonboxed ones).
heh so many here are fighting for the RACE specific deal and yet the Offensive Dark Elf gets 2 heal spells that are better then the EE's and they get purify ...
so unless you start yapping to get rid of those from the SE I say the EE should be given a fair amount of offensive buffs too.
I think to be fair the SE should have the same crappy heals as a prophet .. they are still usable in a pinch but their is no reason for them to get the Greater Heals at all if you go by the race standard ...
Magic Barrier and Greater Shield should most definitly belong to the EE IMO, as they are truly defensive buffs, but it shouldn't be getting focus, dw etc.. because having greater crit rate and power isn't really gonna stop an archer critting you for 3k
BS about "defensive buffers", sorry. How do you expect a defensive buffer to have zero buffs against magic damage (except for unholy magic in C5)?
I didnt say they were the ultimate defensive buffers with full array of defensive buffs. I said they are defensive buffers meaning their buffs are primarily defensive or heal based...which they are and will continue to be. They arent getting crit buffs end of story.
heh so many here are fighting for the RACE specific deal and yet the Offensive Dark Elf gets 2 heal spells that are better then the EE's and they get purify ...
so unless you start yapping to get rid of those from the SE I say the EE should be given a fair amount of offensive buffs too.
I think to be fair the SE should have the same crappy heals as a prophet .. they are still usable in a pinch but their is no reason for them to get the Greater Heals at all if you go by the race standard ...
Major Heal on a EE isnt as good as any SE's heals? Mind you, you guys get Vitalise, Bishops also get Purify and Vitalise.
Unless raiding, how many times do you need to use group heals? Easy answer is never.
Yeah EE >> SE as far as healing goes..... no doubt really about that one.
All EEs lack I feel is a paralyze cure, which isnt such an issue anymore now it only lasts a short period of time. Id like to see EEs get a paralyze resistance buff instead.
The healer class' got pretty balanced now, EE definatly is good as it is atm. SE suck at healing now..but they got some buffs..EE heal very nice..but dun have the same buffs..sounds pretty balanced IMO.
IF EE gets the SE buffs and purify...why would u need a SE? That doesn make sense to me. And most of the nuker i kno got SE 2 box to get emp alredy and buff scrolls or CH buffs, so SE would be totally useless then.
C5 was a big nerf for SE's imo, making EE now even betta would mean the death of non 2 boxed real SE's.
So if u decided to play EE stop asking for and more..c5 gave u a lot and took a lot from SE alredy....
So if u decided to play EE stop asking for and more..c5 gave u a lot and took a lot from SE alredy....
Yes, it is really time for the "the EE needs to get better skills!" crowd to finally realize that they now got what they always wanted and that they will just look foolish and greedy if they ask for even more. It may not be what they thought they should get (I mean, they play a healer class and ask for more offensive buffs?), but they have received amazing new skills and they have a definite role in high level pve/clan pvp/sieges/raids, unlike buffbot SE.
There is still no comparing the two classes as far as PvE performance goes, if only because EEs fill a different role in groups than SEs - the SE is a small group single support character, the EE is a secondary support character, much as the bishop.
Giving them more defensive buffs would be good for the game as a whole (PvP is too fast-paced, and PvE can always be adjusted to become more dangerous if defensive buffs become too powerful), but giving them defensive buffs from the prophet (they already have to share way too much with WCs) seems odd.
As for SEs - something needs to be done for them. I still think making it so they can't both heal and buff better than an EE was a good idea, but I also think it was hella ******ed not to move them up in their own weak area (PvP) at the same time.
A few ideas that come to mind are giving them some sort of direct CP heal (so that while they might not be the first choice once the CP is down, they're only in competitions with OLs while it's up), or more unique buffs that don't become instantly essential in PvE but find utility in PvP - anti-crit buffs or maybe more cures (silence or root cures, currently only on the ES, with the same percentages of success as for the ES, might be an idea).
Wild magic is a Chance buff, not directly linked to offense, i can say shield is offensive...u take less dmg so u can deal more, whatever.
Do i have to give you the evidence again?
Plains Walker (LE) - Critical Chance Passives, No Crit Power
Sword Singer (LE) - Critical Chance Song, No Crit Power
Elven Elder (LE) - No Critical Chance Buff, No Crit Power
-----
Abyss Walker (DE) - Critical Power Passives, No Crit Chance
Blade Dancer (DE) - Critical Power Dance, No Crit Chance
Shillen Elder (DE) - Critical Power Buff, Critical Chance buff.
This proves LE's are about Crit Chance and DE's Crit Power, yet the EE gets neither and the SE gets both. Theres no reasoning for it.
BTW im not ranting about it, just dont see why people cant see whats infront of them.
If you want to play the 'Defensive Buffer' game. Give EE Magic Barrier & Greater Shield, Give SE Greater Might, Take away SE's Mental Shield. There, offense and defense. Get over it.
After looking at things a bit more the SE should have received all those reflect damage buffs that mages get and VR should have gone to the EE.
yea, i think SE doesn need any buffs at all, why not take focus dw ad guidance and give EE? Oh wait...SE still has Emp...no thats too much for SE, lets say we give emp to Bishops...
Ok...what else can we nerf...let me think..ah right..i think SE's got greater group heal...wth? they dont need, take it from SE and give EE imo.
Oh and since we are so far..lets just leave SE out of Game..i mean, hey, EE got everything u need now, pvp and pve skills, why would u need a SE now?
After looking at things a bit more the SE should have received all those reflect damage buffs that mages get and VR should have gone to the EE.
yea, i think SE doesn need any buffs at all, why not take focus dw ad guidance and give EE? Oh wait...SE still has Emp...no thats too much for SE, lets say we give emp to Bishops...
Ok...what else can we nerf...let me think..ah right..i think SE's got greater group heal...wth? they dont need, take it from SE and give EE imo.
Oh and since we are so far..lets just leave SE out of Game..i mean, hey, EE got everything u need now, pvp and pve skills, why would u need a SE now?
Someone always takes it too far. /sigh
Im not voting for DW/Guidence/VR/Emp w/e. Im voting for just Focus, again, ive given evidence, live with it.
I failed my logic exam, so don't listen to it too closely... :)
But really, Focus by itself is not worth making a fuss about, since it's available as an SA. Sure that's expensive - but then, healers have had it fairly cheap for a long time anyway.
As an EE, I can honestly say that I would be happy just getting Purify. Since I'm the only active healer in my clan (and almost my alliance, w/ another EE) atm, I can honestly say DVC parties can get occassionally hampered without it. Otherwise? I don't need any buffs. Although I do like the suggestion that someone had about a "Resist Paralysis" type of buff, if EE's can't get Purify outright. :)
As an EE, I can honestly say that I would be happy just getting Purify. Since I'm the only active healer in my clan (and almost my alliance, w/ another EE) atm, I can honestly say DVC parties can get occassionally hampered without it. Otherwise? I don't need any buffs. Although I do like the suggestion that someone had about a "Resist Paralysis" type of buff, if EE's can't get Purify outright. :)
I think a group-purify (same as the unicorns group cure) is on the cards for EEs to get eventually.
As an EE, I can honestly say that I would be happy just getting Purify. Since I'm the only active healer in my clan (and almost my alliance, w/ another EE) atm, I can honestly say DVC parties can get occassionally hampered without it. Otherwise? I don't need any buffs. Although I do like the suggestion that someone had about a "Resist Paralysis" type of buff, if EE's can't get Purify outright. :)
I think a group-purify (same as the unicorns group cure) is on the cards for EEs to get eventually.
If bishops dont get it, you can bet that EE's wont get it.....
My point is, bishops are the best healing and curing class there is, thats why they sacrafice all group utility to be the best at it.........
Sooooo, my point being, if Bishops dont get a group cure of some description, which by the way no class in the game has a group cure of any kind, then i doubt EE's will see it before them.
Seeing as EE's get Resist Shock, ill aggree and say Resist Paraylis would also be something along their line.
Uhm, for the slow ones: Prophets are supposed to be the best buffer there is. They're specialised in it, they get no heals, they get no attacks. Logic dictates that their buffs should kick buffs from other classes to the curb in the exactly same way bishop heals kick down others.
Now, if you lookat it though, the prophet is actually a very limited buffer, missing two vital essentials (empower, VR). Why should EEs not get something unique over bishops, in the same way in which SEs get uniques over prophets?
The two most powerful cures in the game are group based by the way - but nice try.
My point is, bishops are the best healing and curing class there is,
They aren't.
Yes, they are.
They cannot cure Root, for example.
theyre not supposed to be able to, no one is you nab!
The ESs do have a party cure, and all though i do agree LEs are Crit Chance buffers they are not focus buffers thats a Dark Magic skill and we all know LEs are supposed to use light magic not dark. They have a crit chance buff, which im sure you know, its called wild magic. Since focus was already taken they gave a better skill to LEs, and then decided to give it to SEs... Remove WM from the SE skill list thats all i can agree to.
Bishops SHOULD and WOULD get a party cure the same time an EE does. Bishops get all the heals, cures. They just dont get all the Buffs (which i do agree EEs need a boost in) I just dont see the EEs getting a boost from any of the current buffs. Theyd need a new buff (like NC did with clarity) It seems to me EEs are going from the Tank class buffer to the Mage class buffer. PoW, Clarity, WM... Slowly but surely (not to mention the fact any mage can use all those tank buffs EEs have.
Also Bishops need a lil more boost in effiencecy (Im sure NC agrees) just a small one, other then that c5 has done awsome! ALMOST totally levels the playing field (in terms of pvp) and gets even closer at PVE.
To expand on my effiencency comment well, with the new major heal using even less mp it makes greater battle heal seem like a waste. I havent tested it 100% but it seems apparent that not only is major heal faster the greater heal (the cool down obviousely is, but it might even be more powerful then Greater battle heal... The balance was perefect before in terms of EE vs Bishop - I understand its getting a lil more complex with the new heals, but GBH either needs to be more effiecent or more powerful.
My point is, bishops are the best healing and curing class there is,
They aren't.
Yes, they are.
Life is nonlinear, sorry. There is no "the best" healer class in the game.
They cannot cure Root, for example.
theyre not supposed to be able to, no one is you nab!
There is a class that can cure Root and Silence. There is a class that can cure Stun and Slow. Both classes have some heals useful to other players, too... not as good as Bishops' ones, but still better than heals of baby pets.
Bishops SHOULD and WOULD get a party cure the same time an EE does.
Considering that NCsoft is involved, I would not be surprised if it weren't the case.
Bishops get all the heals, cures.
Not all the heals, not all the cures.
They just dont get all the Buffs
They still get some.
(which i do agree EEs need a boost in)
NO, THANKS.
To expand on my effiencency comment well, with the new major heal using even less mp it makes greater battle heal seem like a waste.
Greater Battle Heal lands faster.
I havent tested it 100% but it seems apparent that not only is major heal faster the greater heal (the cool down obviousely is, but it might even be more powerful then Greater battle heal...
PR2 is both faster and more powerful. But the ultimate power of healing in C5 is Mass Resurrect :D
Its mind blowing how people take things so out of context it just inst funny.....
Life sure as hell is linear i hate to say it because things are balanced over given amounts of time, for example, if you were to give a certain period of time, say for example, 1 hour for each healing class to do their job that NCsoft intend it to be done, i can bet that there would be a ladder as to who can heal the best over any given amount of time.
The exact same can be said about DD classes, if you were able to see a parser in game of what each class offers the most, i can almost asure you that there is a stepping stone effect to who is the most qualified for the job and who isnt and the ups and downsides to each class go with that qualification to do and perform said job.
Now you can also run that same test and see which healer is also the most effcient, but to be fair you would have to do different sceanrios so that it plays fairly into each characters roll, therefore, its linear.
Now when someone says Bishops are the "best" at healing, they mean they have the strongest heals and the most at their disposal.
Seeing as this is revolving around Bishops, EE's and SE's, then those who refer to Bishops as being the "best" at curing are able to cure everything a EE and SE can, which is Vitalise and Purify.
People say, " Why cant EE's have something thats unquie to their class? ", to that i say, sure they can, but its going to have to fall in line with the direction that NCsoft is taking them, like the EE is starting to turn out as a Healer / minor group utility including Mana effciency direction the same way a SE is a HP up keeper with VR / minor group utility including Empower. Bishops on the other hand offer what to a group besides Heals, Prayer and Body of Avatar? Nothing, thats why they not only get heals before every other healing class which not only makes them stronger at healing, but alot less desireable because they dont add anything else to the group except for that.
See where im going, the things i put here speak for itself if you know what these skills do, and to those who want unquie abilities, there also unquie to those classes.
The thing people need to learn is that its ok for a EE and SE to group together, its ok for a Bishop and SE to group together, its ok for a Bishop and EE to group together and its ok for any class to group with who ever they want.
That is what NCsoft is trying to break here and by giving EE's Focus is going to what? Make them all of a sudden more desireable? Because of 50 or so more crit attack rate?
All i know is i have been picking up a EE at every chance i get and i did this even before C5, but know that they get Major Heal plus a variety of other buffs which has all been mentioned here in this thread, a SE + EE is a **** good healing combo for any group.
Only class i still feel sorry for is Bishops, while they are the "best" healer / curer in game in reguards to EE's and SE's for those who like to take things way out of context, they still lack alot of fun spells which EE's and SE's get, something to keep in mind for those who think they are hard done by from C5.
My hat is off to those who play Bishops as there mains.
that there would be a ladder as to who can heal the best over any given amount of time
Except then it would split up into the ladders of different situations - and "across one hour" is already a statement that reeks of not understanding why there is no one best healer class.
You can't say "they're the best curing class" is out of context - that's like saying "SEs are the best buffers... if you don't consider WCs and prophets," just stupid.
An EE as a secondary healer is certainly excellent, but I would argue that out of all the clerical buffer classes (including WCs) you could combine them with, the SE is probably the worst. Mixed healers are good, yes.
Claiming bishops to be the best curers when they don't get group cures and can only cure paralyse and DoTs, however, is a bit far-fetched.
Bishops have their own place - and they can do a very good job as PvE healers, provided, of course, there's an actual buffer in the group. But that's the same thing with EEs, and not really a problem at all.
that there would be a ladder as to who can heal the best over any given amount of time
Except then it would split up into the ladders of different situations - and "across one hour" is already a statement that reeks of not understanding why there is no one best healer class.
You could run it indefiently and it would still show the same results.....
You can't say "they're the best curing class" is out of context - that's like saying "SEs are the best buffers... if you don't consider WCs and prophets," just stupid.
More taking it out of context i see? Again, this thread has been revolving mainly around Bishops, SE's and EE's, so in that reguard, understand here, R E G U A R D, they are better then these two classes at curing because they get both, trying to compaire other classes to anything other then who in the game gets Bleed, Posion and Paraylsis cures is just showing your ability to comprehend where this topic is going, which for you is off road because your running out of road to travel on.
An EE as a secondary healer is certainly excellent, but I would argue that out of all the clerical buffer classes (including WCs) you could combine them with, the SE is probably the worst. Mixed healers are good, yes.
Thats pretty much why i said you can group with who ever you want or i could of made the post 10 times as long making up all the group sceanrios know to man in R E G U A R D S to Lineage 2 of course, caps for reading comprehension ease.
Claiming bishops to be the best curers when they don't get group cures and can only cure paralyse and DoTs, however, is a bit far-fetched.
Not repeating myself, look where i first mentioned what this post was in R E G U A R D S too.
Bishops have their own place - and they can do a very good job as PvE healers, provided, of course, there's an actual buffer in the group. But that's the same thing with EEs, and not really a problem at all.
So if there is no problem, whats the problem?
By the way, if you follow TailChaser post history, he dual boxes his EE with his TH, so at first glance i would of said that he would of been better off rolling a SE to go with it, but he asked for advice about EE class, which obviously will never happen, i mean lets think realistically here:
How many classes can already buff Focus, Death Whisper and Guidance? 4 or is it 5?
Anyway, i think its quite clear the direction NCsoft are taking EE's from this point, similar to a SE who's healing potential for said buffs has dropped because of having said buffs.
Now, if NCsoft were to take away Major Heal and give EE's Focus, Death Whisper and Guidance, sure, im all for it, but personally, i dont want to see another buffer on the block, id rather see the EE fill a more unquie playstyle which is looking to be a mana usage reducer, next Expasion might just stamp that home for some people and increase their mana usage effciency.
Final note, im all for the EE's getting more unquie resist style buffs that no other class has ie: Paralysis.
What exactly are you trying to get at with all the capitalised reguards? Did I make a typo somewhere? That's an idiotic way to criticise it.
You could run it indefiently and it would still show the same results.....
For timespans of more than an hour, certainly. But sometimes, people are interested just how much someone can heal in ten seconds (bishops dominate), or in two minutes (EEs dominate).
More taking it out of context i see? Again, this thread has been revolving mainly around Bishops, SE's and EE's, so in that reguard, understand here, R E G U A R D, they are better then these two classes at curing because they get both, trying to compaire other classes to anything other then who in the game gets Bleed, Posion and Paraylsis cures is just showing your ability to comprehend where this topic is going, which for you is off road because your running out of road to travel on.
Rather than saying "the bishops are the best curers in the game," a simple "EEs can't cure paralysis" is much more to the point and doesn't allow for confusion. If you're trying to say that the bishop is the only class that can cure bleeding, poison and paralysis, I'm not quite sure whether it's true that you frequently party with an SE...
So if there is no problem, whats the problem?
I'm not in favour for Focus/DW for EEs (if you actually followed the thread). Just because we agree on that, however, the rest of what you write doesn't start making more sense.
By the way, if you follow TailChaser post history, he dual boxes his EE with his TH, so at first glance i would of said that he would of been better off rolling a SE to go with it
And if you had half a head on your shoulder, you would realise that it's probably either an equal-weight box, or the TH who is boxed. But oh well.
How many classes can already buff Focus, Death Whisper and Guidance? 4 or is it 5?
I count prophets, SEs and warcriers for death whisper (I'm not sure about OLs), 31 classes for Focus 3 (although not all of them can buff it on others), and OLs/WCs/PPs/SEs for Guidance.
Defining a playstyle as "mana usage reducer" off a single buff is more than just far-fetching. The EE is a secondary everything. Period.
a SE + EE is a **** good healing combo for any group.
A EE can easily heal a party on their own so why take a SE too when there is 2 better options, It would be the same as saying. Prophet and WS would make a perfect duo (WS is a warrior class) but everyone know Tyrants and Destroyers etc. are better dd's.
I count prophets, SEs and warcriers for death whisper (I'm not sure about OLs), 31 classes for Focus 3 (although not all of them can buff it on others), and OLs/WCs/PPs/SEs for Guidance.
Dominator at 77, but then people dont really mention them when you talk about Empower, and they also miss out on some other important buffs.
What exactly are you trying to get at with all the capitalised reguards? Did I make a typo somewhere? That's an idiotic way to criticise it.
The point is that its in reguards to something while you on the other hand and a few others drag multiple classes into the argument / debate, what ever you wanna call this, wish list? Which then causes a out of context lemming effect.
You could run it indefiently and it would still show the same results.....
For timespans of more than an hour, certainly. But sometimes, people are interested just how much someone can heal in ten seconds (bishops dominate), or in two minutes (EEs dominate).
Then we are talking about a whole different kettle of fish, which hands down belongs to Bishops because of the sheer amount of burst healing they can do in a very extreme small amount of time.
More taking it out of context i see? Again, this thread has been revolving mainly around Bishops, SE's and EE's, so in that reguard, understand here, R E G U A R D, they are better then these two classes at curing because they get both, trying to compaire other classes to anything other then who in the game gets Bleed, Posion and Paraylsis cures is just showing your ability to comprehend where this topic is going, which for you is off road because your running out of road to travel on.
Rather than saying "the bishops are the best curers in the game," a simple "EEs can't cure paralysis" is much more to the point and doesn't allow for confusion. If you're trying to say that the bishop is the only class that can cure bleeding, poison and paralysis, I'm not quite sure whether it's true that you frequently party with an SE...
Your aware of how Vitalise and Purify work right? If so i dont need to say a thing and if you have any knowledge on how to play a healer effciently, then i dont need to say anything more about this subject period.
In the event you dont know how, then you should check the differences.
So if there is no problem, whats the problem?
I'm not in favour for Focus/DW for EEs (if you actually followed the thread). Just because we agree on that, however, the rest of what you write doesn't start making more sense.
No, no, dont double back, you were speaking from a healing point of view, not buffs, there is no problem in terms of healing between a EE and Bishop remember? So if there is no problem, where is the problem?
Bishops gets the biggest healing utility in the game, group HP buff, group buff to make heals more powerful, higher percent rez, some undead nukes and percentage heal, cures in a variety of ways that increase HP / cure or just cure straight out.
EE gets group utility buffs, average healing ability, unquie class only buffs / group abilities and cures that in a variety of ways increase HP / Cure or cure straight out.
SE gets strong group utility buffs, minor healing ability, cures that can only be used to cure and nothing else and of course we cant forget their class only unquie abilities now can we.
By the way, if you follow TailChaser post history, he dual boxes his EE with his TH, so at first glance i would of said that he would of been better off rolling a SE to go with it
And if you had half a head on your shoulder, you would realise that it's probably either an equal-weight box, or the TH who is boxed. But oh well.
Ah, but your missing the point, that he is only just discovering what a EE really is......reguardless of wether he boxes or not, if he didnt have a TH and lets say hyperthectically he didnt realize the difference his TH was criting with and without Focus, would he have mentioned this to begin with?
No pun to you of course Tail, just pointing out a obvious fact.
How many classes can already buff Focus, Death Whisper and Guidance? 4 or is it 5?
I count prophets, SEs and warcriers for death whisper (I'm not sure about OLs), 31 classes for Focus 3 (although not all of them can buff it on others), and OLs/WCs/PPs/SEs for Guidance.
Right, now how many classes get Major Heal, Major Group Heal, Clarity?
Defining a playstyle as "mana usage reducer" off a single buff is more than just far-fetching. The EE is a secondary everything. Period.
So is a SE, because his / her healing potential is lower then a EE's, so where is the problem?
Its really a simple concept when you wrap your head around it:
Bishops sacrafices group utility for the most advantage in healing.
EE is more or less a hybrid, buffer healer, not the best at anything really, but has alot up their sleeve.
SE is more buffer orientated, with a minor helping hand in healing ability.
a SE + EE is a **** good healing combo for any group.
A EE can easily heal a party on their own so why take a SE too when there is 2 better options, It would be the same as saying. Prophet and WS would make a perfect duo (WS is a warrior class) but everyone know Tyrants and Destroyers etc. are better dd's.
Yep i wasnt saying EE's couldnt do that, i was meerly pointing out that they can group with who ever they want, i was how ever using a SE in place of a WC if one wasnt to be found, but im not going to go into group configs, this isnt about that.
Then we are talking about a whole different kettle of fish, which hands down belongs to Bishops because of the sheer amount of burst healing they can do in a very extreme small amount of time.
And then you look at "more than the few moments it takes to empty a bar into GBHs," and suddenly prophecy of water and major heal are starting to look ****. It's not as simple as a ladder. It's situational.
Yes, vitalise is more MP efficient for curing a DoT than purify is, both are equally capable of doing so though - and in a situation where you need a cure, you're not worried about how much it costs, but whether or not it's possible.
No, no, dont double back,
I'm not doubling back. You are, however, confusing me. What was the statement I replied to talking about, if not the original suggestion?
Also, what's this EE ability to cure straight out? Cure poison? ¬_¬;
No, he's not just realising what an EE is - TailChaser has, I believe, a relatively solid knowledge of what all the classes do, and it's not a secret that an EE is the "pefect secondary" all around.
Clarity reduces MP consumption by less than 10%, and costs spirit ore - it can't weigh up against VR or Emp. Two classes get major heals - but did you also complain when they gave OLs CP heals?
No, the SE is not a secondary anything - the EE has a good but incomplete collection of skills, the SE has a bad but complete collection of skills. The SE is the primary girl-for-everything, that's pretty much the exact opposite of what the EE does.
Seriously, if you think "the best replacement if you can not have two classes" and "the one that shines most if another class is already present" are somehow the same... who can still help you?
Clarity reduces MP consumption by less than 10%, and costs spirit ore - it can't weigh up against VR or Emp.
I think clarity could actually weigh up against EMP pretty well, depending on circumstance for nuker+EE vs nuker+SE :
IF the nuker can 2 shot the mob without emp, then the % mp reduce could become more useful then emp unless you are using over-hits....the key would be to find the ideal mobs however and things currently do seem swayed in favour of emp but this may change.
No, the SE is not a secondary anything - the EE has a good but incomplete collection of skills, the SE has a bad but complete collection of skills. The SE is the primary girl-for-everything, that's pretty much the exact opposite of what the EE does.
That there is the perfect definition of hybrid, couldnt of said it better myself.
Jack of all trades, master of none.
But of course, NCsoft has come to realize that yeah EE's did need a little tweaking so they gave them Major Heal, Clarity and a few other quite nice buffs / heals.
By the way, a SE is secondary in healing, thats the trade off for the buffs, less healing ability more buffs, didnt we go through this already?
They really arent as bad as people make them out to be.
Seriously, if you think "the best replacement if you can not have two classes" and "the one that shines most if another class is already present" are somehow the same... who can still help you?
Loaded question which can lead to many roads, you know too well that there is more then this when factoring in group formations etc.
Answer it i will though, depends on group formation it does.
Its mind blowing how people take things so out of context it just inst funny.....
Seeing people not being able to keep the whole context in their head is not fun, though.
Life sure as hell is linear i hate to say it because things are balanced over given amounts of time, for example, if you were to give a certain period of time, say for example, 1 hour for each healing class to do their job that NCsoft intend it to be done, i can bet that there would be a ladder as to who can heal the best over any given amount of time.
The exact same can be said about DD classes, if you were able to see a parser in game of what each class offers the most, i can almost asure you that there is a stepping stone effect to who is the most qualified for the job and who isnt and the ups and downsides to each class go with that qualification to do and perform said job.
Trying to introduce a vector with the nearly-infinite amount of components that you cannot properly orthogonalize (let alone normalize) is not a good way to define an utility function, sorry.
Now when someone says Bishops are the "best" at healing, they mean they have the strongest heals and the most at their disposal.
Seeing as this is revolving around Bishops, EE's and SE's, then those who refer to Bishops as being the "best" at curing are able to cure everything a EE and SE can, which is Vitalise and Purify.
Seeing the complaint that EEs lack a cure that both SE and ES have... seeing it as revolving around Bishops is indeed a blessing.
like the EE is starting to turn out as a Healer / minor group utility including Mana effciency direction the same way a SE is a HP up keeper with VR / minor group utility including Empower.
VR and Empower are currently the best mana efficiency tools in the game, sorry.
Bishops on the other hand offer what to a group besides Heals, Prayer and Body of Avatar? Nothing,
No crowd control? No cures? No rezzes?
The thing people need to learn is that its ok for a EE and SE to group together, its ok for a Bishop and SE to group together, its ok for a Bishop and EE to group together and its ok for any class to group with who ever they want.
And if they don't want to group a healer?
That is what NCsoft is trying to break here and by giving EE's Focus is going to what?
As an EE, I don't really need focus.
All i know is i have been picking up a EE at every chance i get and i did this even before C5, but know that they get Major Heal plus a variety of other buffs which has all been mentioned here in this thread, a SE + EE is a **** good healing combo for any group.
The combo is indeed good. The problem is that people prefer to pick Warcryer over EE in such groups. Then SE alone has enough MP for heals and recharges, and WC provides crowd control.
4 pages and Wildrain still can't convince anyone but himself eh?
My thoughts exactly Luke. Each point made comparing EE's and SE's he posts are bias, the EE's is positive, mentioning none of their down sides, the SE's is negatives, mentioning none of the very many up sides.
Spose ill just do what mal said and get a Wep with Focus Buff SA if i want it so much.
And to Krissa: I believe people take a WC & EE over a WC & SE, why would you need 2 classes with DW/Focus/Guidence/VR in the same party? The EE can offer alot more if the group already has a WC.
Wildrain: Post on the last page you said how many classes get Major Heal, Major Grp Heal and Clarity. I can tell you, no class gets all of those togeather. No Major Grp Heal for EE, no Clarity for Bishop. Stop saying EE's have Group Heals past 35.
They won't take the EE because they will want Purify. They will take a bishop and the EE will still sit at home. AOE para on 9 players...for 30 seconds...is still death.
They won't take the EE because they will want Purify. They will take a bishop and the EE will still sit at home. AOE para on 9 players...for 30 seconds...is still death.
Oh ok, sry then, I just havent encountered a grp with both a WC & SE in it before, those classes tend to take their seperate groups. But hey, look at that, another reason why SE's are nice ^^
4 pages and Wildrain still can't convince anyone but himself eh?
Who exactally am i trying to convince? You lost me with that one. Happen to notice its the same people going on and on about EE's at this stage? Your a bit of a hypocrit Luke, seriously, especially when going back and reading your posts in this very thread, when what im saying is along the same lines as you Luke, EE's are a healing class.........but a hybrid healing class where they get a mix of buffs, heals and rezzes.
Point is this, EE's whined and whined about their group utility and rightfully so, now NCsoft has given to them and taken away from SE's to make you a more desire'd class, if you cant handle the direction that NCsoft is taking the EE class maybe i suggest you reroll?
I dont like the way NCsoft made SE's heal over time healers, but hey, thats their choice not mine, ill have to deal with it.
Like i said, id hate for EE's to become just another buffer on the block and if you ask any other EE besides Mortova, id be guessing they would strongly agree with me. The game has 4 to 5 buff classes in the game, it doesnt need another.
Oh, Kirssa, its already been pointed out that Clarity sure as hell does weigh up against Empower i hate to say it, pity you probally havent been able to try it though, and who says you cant have a SE in the group for VR + Empower and a EE for Clarity + Major Heal? Oh thats right, forgive me, how could i forget, you HAVE to have a PP present, i did a cardinal sin, forgot about the rules of the game where it says PP have to be present or no group exsists........
People still have the mentaility of only one healer needed for groups? Pity, thought by now that people were over the butt hurt from being forced to group......obviously not.
Wildrain: Post on the last page you said how many classes get Major Heal, Major Grp Heal and Clarity. I can tell you, no class gets all of those togeather. No Major Grp Heal for EE, no Clarity for Bishop. Stop saying EE's have Group Heals past 35.
I bet you would be good at playing dodge ball, thats not what i asked.
How many classes in the game get Major Heal, Major Group Heal and Clarity, simple question which requires a ever so simple answer.
Now as pointed out there is already 4 to 5 buff classes in the game, how many classes get Major Heal, Major Group Heal and Clarity again did you say Mortova? i must of missed it.
They won't take the EE because they will want Purify. They will take a bishop and the EE will still sit at home. AOE para on 9 players...for 30 seconds...is still death.
Which is not so bright, if you think about it. You cannot cure your own Paralysis, and EE has better resistance, and Trance is cheap anyway.
Mobs that cancel are tough for a WC, though, without a backup buffer.
Neither healer has any reason to be in range of AOE paralysis and cancel only drops 5 buffs...and isn't so frequent as para is in party areas. People will also prefer the SE for emp on the few toons that mix and match magic in their fighting...like an SK hexing.
And again, Im discussing the same things most people agree on, wild you're just talking crap that most everyone shakes their head at and you seem to think you have a clue...which you don't. But keep posting, it's getting to the point where most everyone just skips you.
Oh, Kirssa, its already been pointed out that Clarity sure as hell does weigh up against Empower
Not really. Clarity is a "nice to have" buff, while Empower is a "must have" one.
i hate to say it, pity you probally havent been able to try it though, and who says you cant have a SE in the group for VR + Empower and a EE for Clarity + Major Heal?
I'm sorry, but it is you who shows a complete lack of experience in the topic. When I am in a PvE party with an SE, the party doesn't need Major Heal and only rarely needs Clarity.
Oh thats right, forgive me, how could i forget, you HAVE to have a PP present, i did a cardinal sin, forgot about the rules of the game where it says PP have to be present or no group exsists........
People think purify is so important - but most EEs or Bishops that are actually there and paying attention will disrupt a mob casting cancel or paralysis before it can finish. ;)
Oh, Kirssa, its already been pointed out that Clarity sure as hell does weigh up against Empower
Not really. Clarity is a "nice to have" buff, while Empower is a "must have" one.
While i agree its a nice to have buff, its also not situational and benefits any group set up, Empower how ever only effects casters, situational.
i hate to say it, pity you probally havent been able to try it though, and who says you cant have a SE in the group for VR + Empower and a EE for Clarity + Major Heal?
I'm sorry, but it is you who shows a complete lack of experience in the topic. When I am in a PvE party with an SE, the party doesn't need Major Heal and only rarely needs Clarity.
Why wouldnt it need Major Heal? SE dont get Major heal and if the SE was for some reason paraylsised or stunned, which a EE cannot cure, then who would be healing? Now if for some unforseen reason that the EE and SE were paraylized, then the EE could use Major Heal to quickly and more effciently top up the tank by the time it wears off.
If for some unforseen reason the group was taking a aoe damage abilitiy, the SE is there for Greater Group Heal, so yeah its works out ok, obviously not the best combo, but works alot better then most might think.
Oh, Kirssa, its already been pointed out that Clarity sure as hell does weigh up against Empower
Not really. Clarity is a "nice to have" buff, while Empower is a "must have" one.
While i agree its a nice to have buff, its also not situational and benefits any group set up, Empower how ever only effects casters, situational.
Clarity benefits noone if the group's MP pool is not strained, and usually does not give sufficient benefits for the group to consider changing the levelling area. Empower directly affects the choice of levelling areas for nukers.
i hate to say it, pity you probally havent been able to try it though, and who says you cant have a SE in the group for VR + Empower and a EE for Clarity + Major Heal?
I'm sorry, but it is you who shows a complete lack of experience in the topic. When I am in a PvE party with an SE, the party doesn't need Major Heal and only rarely needs Clarity.
Why wouldnt it need Major Heal?
Because Greater Heal and occasional Vitalize are enough in these groups.
SE dont get Major heal and if the SE was for some reason paraylsised or stunned, which a EE cannot cure, then who would be healing?
SE doesn't heal in these groups anyway. SE buffs and recharges, EE heals and provides crowd control.
Now if for some unforseen reason that the EE and SE were paraylized, then the EE could use Major Heal to quickly and more effciently top up the tank by the time it wears off.
Sorry?
If for some unforseen reason the group was taking a aoe damage abilitiy, the SE is there for Greater Group Heal, so yeah its works out ok, obviously not the best combo, but works alot better then most might think.
SE usually does not have enough cast speed for its GGH to be useful in groups with an EE.
Neither healer has any reason to be in range of AOE paralysis
Then how come that 9 people are paralysed?
The point is that the lack of Purify is not so big reason not to party an EEs as people think. The lack of buffs is.
The point is that groups need to be made to make them fit into the group, obviously you dont get a EE when you have a SE, you would be better off with a PP.
There is way too many group sceanrios to list here one by one, the point is EE's are hybrid healers / buffers, they dont get the best heals and they dont get the best buffs, they get the best of both worlds.
Obviously everyone wants to bet around the bush and name call and act like chidlren *cough* Luke *cough*, so ill come out with it myself.
1 class gets Clarity ( EE )
1 class gets Major Group Heal ( Bishop )
2 classes gets Major Heal ( Bishop + EE )
Soooo, how many classes get Focus, Death Whisper and Guidance again? 4 to 5?
EE's do not need to be turned into another buffer class, really. What they need is more class only abilities like Clarity. I noticed they have updated the lineage2.com site for skills and abilities, so when you see what a EE gets, it seems there going more along the lines of crowd controller, healer, partial buffer and mana effciency.
I mean put some honest thought into it now, EE's got 6 new buffs / abilities in C5, SE's got 2 which EE's also got, Bishops got 6 new buffs / abilities also, some of which both a SE and EE recieved, but some for them only.
Trying for more buffs is a slap in the face to classes like Dwarves who have been basically left to rot, you got more, be happy with it and make your place known instead of trying to get even more again......
The point is that groups need to be made to make them fit into the group, obviously you dont get a EE when you have a SE, you would be better off with a PP.
Why would you want both an SE and a PP?
There is way too many group sceanrios to list here one by one, the point is EE's are hybrid healers / buffers, they dont get the best heals and they dont get the best buffs, they get the best of both worlds.
Oxymoron much?
1 class gets Clarity ( EE )
1 class gets Major Group Heal ( Bishop )
2 classes gets Major Heal ( Bishop + EE )
One class gets Empower, VR, the essential melee buffs and rechargers (I'm not going to mention the heals, because they are not really a necessity in most scenarios).
Are archers somehow gimp because daggers also get high crit values?
Yes, plenty of people are agreeing that EEs don't need Focus.
But trying to argue this by saying they're like SEs somehow, when they're the polar opposite, isn't exactly an easily understandable line of arguementation.
As a little thought-inspiration: Summoners got rhee new skills in C5, all of them exceptionally useful, but only a fool would argue that they didn't get nerfed.
Skill count has never been a good indication for power.
Oh, Kirssa, its already been pointed out that Clarity sure as hell does weigh up against Empower
Not really. Clarity is a "nice to have" buff, while Empower is a "must have" one.
While i agree its a nice to have buff, its also not situational and benefits any group set up, Empower how ever only effects casters, situational.
Clarity benefits noone if the group's MP pool is not strained, and usually does not give sufficient benefits for the group to consider changing the levelling area. Empower directly affects the choice of levelling areas for nukers.
Exactaly, Empower ONLY effects Nukers meaning situational. Clarity still effects everyones MP usage and i dont know about you, but i know of alot of classes that strain their Mana pools consistantly....before you try this which is the direction i can see you going, you also cannot look at it from what you save per cast, rather you have to look at it from how much mana you save from a session grinding, which could easily break into the thousands, obviously depending on how long you play for, which obviously results in alot less recharging.
i hate to say it, pity you probally havent been able to try it though, and who says you cant have a SE in the group for VR + Empower and a EE for Clarity + Major Heal?
I'm sorry, but it is you who shows a complete lack of experience in the topic. When I am in a PvE party with an SE, the party doesn't need Major Heal and only rarely needs Clarity.
Why wouldnt it need Major Heal?
Because Greater Heal and occasional Vitalize are enough in these groups.
Of course it is, when everything is going ok that is.....put some adds in there or a train runs past or PvP eventuates while in the middle of already fighting PvE, etc etc.
SE dont get Major heal and if the SE was for some reason paraylsised or stunned, which a EE cannot cure, then who would be healing?
SE doesn't heal in these groups anyway. SE buffs and recharges, EE heals and provides crowd control.
So where is the problem again?
Now if for some unforseen reason that the EE and SE were paraylized, then the EE could use Major Heal to quickly and more effciently top up the tank by the time it wears off.
Sorry?
Sorry? Sorry for what? Sorry for not understanding who would heal if both healers were stunned or paralyzied?
If for some unforseen reason the group was taking a aoe damage abilitiy, the SE is there for Greater Group Heal, so yeah its works out ok, obviously not the best combo, but works alot better then most might think.
SE usually does not have enough cast speed for its GGH to be useful in groups with an EE.
You must be kidding right? Thats a pretty bold statement, saying a EE can heal a 9 person group not only more effceintly single target healing, but also faster then 1 person can casting once with one single heal that effects 9 people at once.......
I dont know about you, but a Bsps Group Heal is pretty fast, and if you can effciently and faster heal 9 people with single target heals then 1 group heal can, then my hat is off to you........
Now if for some unforseen reason that the EE and SE were paraylized, then the EE could use Major Heal to quickly and more effciently top up the tank by the time it wears off.
Sorry?
Sorry? Sorry for what? Sorry for not understanding who would heal if both healers were stunned or paralyzied?
I'll cover that one.
And again, more than nukers use empower. Any melee class with magic also utilizes it for debuffs etc. Empower increases the land rate on my lethal strike (or appears to by my current statistics) so far as well.
Empower only benefits nukers...funny statement. Even though it's not true, you just stated that it is a rare buff, most important to the most common DD in L2. Nice work defending your argument. Do you even read the stuff you write?
Empower affects nukers, healers, dark elves, and summoners. Those are 4+4+4+3 = 15 of 31 classes. Not all that shabby, is it?
Clarity helps everyone, but it helps everyone minimally. That's cool, but it doesn't mean you can compare it to an essential buff like emp.
If PvP comes up while you're with an SE, what you need isn't Major Heal but Party Return 2.
Sorry? Sorry for what? Sorry for not understanding who would heal if both healers were stunned or paralyzied?
Sorry for you not making sense maybe? A paralysed EE can't major heal... just as a thought.
How many times do you actually need GGH? The answer is rarely - most of the time, one character is getting hit at the time. When there's an AoE, the level 35 group heal from an EE can usually solve it - in combination with some single-target heals.
The situation that 9 people are actually hurt is rare. The situation that 9 people are actually hurt and need help straight away is even rarer. It pretty much stops existing with an attentive EE disrupting critical skills with trance.
The point is that groups need to be made to make them fit into the group, obviously you dont get a EE when you have a SE, you would be better off with a PP.
Why would you want both an SE and a PP?
Why wouldnt you?
There is way too many group sceanrios to list here one by one, the point is EE's are hybrid healers / buffers, they dont get the best heals and they dont get the best buffs, they get the best of both worlds.
Oxymoron much?
Oxymoron? Because of the best of both worlds? its acually a metaphor for having the ability to do two things and not hindered to doing one job at max and the other job mediocre at best.
1 class gets Clarity ( EE )
1 class gets Major Group Heal ( Bishop )
2 classes gets Major Heal ( Bishop + EE )
One class gets Empower, VR, the essential melee buffs and rechargers (I'm not going to mention the heals, because they are not really a necessity in most scenarios).
1 class gets Empower ( SE )
3 classes get Vampric Rage ( SE + WC + BD )
Are archers somehow gimp because daggers also get high crit values?
This is relevant how? If lets say the the dagger was to get close to the archer, then yeah he would be gimp, but range is your friend in this game, besides that, moot point, no relevance what so ever.
Yes, plenty of people are agreeing that EEs don't need Focus.
But trying to argue this by saying they're like SEs somehow, when they're the polar opposite, isn't exactly an easily understandable line of arguementation.
Huh? Where the hell has anyone said that EE's and SE's are similar? No one has, who cares about EE's and SE's , period. The point here is there is upsides and downsides to both classes, you need to weigh those into effect PLUS those of other classes before saying " give EE's more more more...."
As a little thought-inspiration: Summoners got rhee new skills in C5, all of them exceptionally useful, but only a fool would argue that they didn't get nerfed.
Now your going out of context yet again, something certain people are really good at, keep it with in the healer classes, which would be Bishop, EE and SE, which is exactaly what i have been doing.
Skill count has never been a good indication for power.
Depends how people see those skills or how people make them percieved, Krissa for example likes to say Clarity isnt worth a pinch of salt and Empower outweighs it, how exactaly does Empower outweigh Clarity for example on a Bounty Hunter? or ANY Dagger class for that matter if you have played one, you will know how fast they can burn through mana, or archers for that fact, gotta remember, without mana, they cant shoot their arrows.......
I party with a large number of spellhowlers. Many parties consist of myself, a BD, a pair of SE, and SHs galore. I throw a zerk from my prophet and then get put back in group and we goto work. With 5 SHs BTM constantly, group heals are a must. The new heals over time actually help all the more, as anyone who was late on his cast can still catchup and bring his hp down before the heal finishes effect. Small group heals can take the place of this quite well, as my prophet tends to fill in if an SE has to leave. We'd take an EE with us instead of an SE...but it's better to have multiple sources of Empower for when the party breaks up...because without emp the party is dead in the water. All the EE's skills are irrelevant to the need for more damage. Who needs heals with VR4 and vamp dance?
In melee parties, you bring a WC and a Bishop. You can't afford the EE...the buffs are pretty...and nice, but the SWS and BD buffs are better. There are only 20 buff slots. All defensive buffs with rare exceptions are sacrificed for space to include more damage. The party doesn't run out of mana...it just wants to kill faster and faster. With BD dances and SWS songs, the EE is simply useless. It doesn't have the bishops heals and there is no space for excess buffs. It has PR2...to save me 400 adena when I port to town at the end of the party. Big woop. Interesting class, nice rez, different skills, fun, but not nearly balanced.
Because there is no need for the PP if you have an SE - and conversely, if you're going to have two classes, there's no need for the SE if you have a PP, either.
No, because you say "they can't do either well, but they get the best of both worlds". If you want to see "the best of both worlds," have a look at the necromancer. That's what the phrase actually refers to.
1 class gets Empower ( SE )
3 classes get Vampric Rage ( SE + WC + BD )
Do I need to bold the "and" in the quote for you?
This is relevant how? If lets say the the dagger was to get close to the archer, then yeah he would be gimp, but range is your friend in this game, besides that, moot point, no relevance what so ever.
Let's spell it out... "Other classes get some form of your buffs. That does not mean they're suddenly worth less than the (sorry) gimpy EE buffs." Whether or not PPs and WCs also have your buffs doesn't matter one bit in regards to how useful they are.
Where the hell has anyone said that EE's and SE's are similar?
Let me grab the quote...
No, the SE is not a secondary anything - the EE has a good but incomplete collection of skills, the SE has a bad but complete collection of skills. The SE is the primary girl-for-everything, that's pretty much the exact opposite of what the EE does.
That there is the perfect definition of hybrid, couldnt of said it better myself.
Now your going out of context yet again, something certain people are really good at, keep it with in the healer classes, which would be Bishop, EE and SE, which is exactaly what i have been doing.
Bishop and EEs got new skills, and you said that somehow made them ubber - but saying "whaa they got six and I got two," as demonstrated with examples from another skill tree, is not indicative of the actual usefulness of those skills. Yay, turn undead! (Of course, the major heals are actually useful - but, for example, trance is "only half a sleep nerf"). Please don't keep asking people to stay on topic when they are right in the topic, and you just can't make the connection.
Depends how people see those skills or how people make them percieved, Krissa for example likes to say Clarity isnt worth a pinch of salt and Empower outweighs it, how exactaly does Empower outweigh Clarity for example on a Bounty Hunter? or ANY Dagger class for that matter if you have played one, you will know how fast they can burn through mana, or archers for that fact, gotta remember, without mana, they cant shoot their arrows.......
Clarity doesn't actually affect bowshots, but I'm sure you knew that... Yes, daggers burn through their MP faster. With clarity, they can do 10% extra damage or so - that's less than might level 3.
==============
Luke: The EE isn't just there for buffs - and they can be done selectively, if the WC can learn to buff might/shield first - but also for recharges. Recharge + Heal > Heal & Group Heal, IMHO. For killspeed, that is.
And again, more than nukers use empower. Any melee class with magic also utilizes it for debuffs etc. Empower increases the land rate on my lethal strike (or appears to by my current statistics) so far as well.
Wrong, INT effects your landing rate of curse type spells which are generaly debuffs anyway.
Now if lethal strike has a debuff in it thats curse based, then INT would increase the chances of it landing and if its classes as a castable spell like DE's life tap for example, then yeah, Empower is going to effect it.
Unfortunately, this isnt how lethal strike works at all, its totally percent chance based wether you succed or not.
Empower only benefits nukers...funny statement. Even though it's not true, you just stated that it is a rare buff, most important to the most common DD in L2. Nice work defending your argument. Do you even read the stuff you write?
Your too much for me Luke, your context breaking reading comprehension ability is way beyond anything i can imagine........
I mean, do i have to say much when you think Empower helps you land Lethal Strike? I think i dont have to waste my time with you at all after that statement, which of course was your own statistics, but knowing you, you swear by them....
Yes... INT affects them because - dududun - it affects MAtk. Just like STR affects your damage, but you won't stop buffing might because of that, will you?
Yeah...my lethal strike is a fear spell which lands based on INT and matk. The land rate in a 100 cast test is about 20% better (relative statistic...that means 10 > 12 or 20 > 24 btw) for fear with empower3 than without. The lethal strike rate was boosted by approximately the same (17%). So yes...its pretty obvious an matk skill is boosted by empower...just like Hex land rate increases with emp. Skills that do damage, don't tend to take into account matk or patk for skill effects (ice bolt doesn't care if you hit for 1 damage, it can still debuff run speed) IMO, but most statistics say otherwise. Either way fear spells don't do damage, but the lethal effect does when it lands...at a higher rate with empower.
So...we end up with all Hex classes taking emp...my tank takes emp for these skills. So once again...you show a complete lack of understanding whatsoever. Surprise right? Hehe, not to me. Do you have any clue how L2 even works? Are you playing this game even?
Because there is no need for the PP if you have an SE - and conversely, if you're going to have two classes, there's no need for the SE if you have a PP, either.
Yeah i suppose, if you look at it that way MalineII, Zerk, Haste, Body of Soul and Body of Mind, Holy Weapon, more resists at higher levels, Greater Shield, Greater Might........all totally useless for a SE + PP combo in a group. :confused:
No, because you say "they can't do either well, but they get the best of both worlds". If you want to see "the best of both worlds," have a look at the necromancer. That's what the phrase actually refers to.
Thats exactaly my point, EE's cant buff as good as SE's, PP's, WC's, OL's but they can still buff.
They cant heal as well as a Bishop, but can heal better then a SE, PP, WC and OL.
1 class gets Empower ( SE )
3 classes get Vampric Rage ( SE + WC + BD )
Do I need to bold the "and" in the quote for you?
Are you sure i dont need to bold for you? If you feel the need to bold, go right ahead.
This is relevant how? If lets say the the dagger was to get close to the archer, then yeah he would be gimp, but range is your friend in this game, besides that, moot point, no relevance what so ever.
Let's spell it out... "Other classes get some form of your buffs. That does not mean they're suddenly worth less than the (sorry) gimpy EE buffs." Whether or not PPs and WCs also have your buffs doesn't matter one bit in regards to how useful they are.
Mmm hmmm, you keep telling yourself that, still dodging though, good stuff.
Where the hell has anyone said that EE's and SE's are similar?
Let me grab the quote...
No, the SE is not a secondary anything - the EE has a good but incomplete collection of skills, the SE has a bad but complete collection of skills. The SE is the primary girl-for-everything, that's pretty much the exact opposite of what the EE does.
That there is the perfect definition of hybrid, couldnt of said it better myself.
Now your going out of context yet again, something certain people are really good at, keep it with in the healer classes, which would be Bishop, EE and SE, which is exactaly what i have been doing.
Bishop and EEs got new skills, and you said that somehow made them ubber - but saying "whaa they got six and I got two," as demonstrated with examples from another skill tree, is not indicative of the actual usefulness of those skills. Yay, turn undead! (Of course, the major heals are actually useful - but, for example, trance is "only half a sleep nerf"). Please don't keep asking people to stay on topic when they are right in the topic, and you just can't make the connection.
Context disability 101.
On the contrary, i was pointing out that Bishops and EE's got those new abilities and skills to balance them out with a SE and make them more desireable for groups, if you had any level of reading comprehension, you would of seen that, but nope, here you are again assuming away, by the way, do point out where it made them all uber, i like that one, assumption is the mother of all [censored] ups.
Depends how people see those skills or how people make them percieved, Krissa for example likes to say Clarity isnt worth a pinch of salt and Empower outweighs it, how exactaly does Empower outweigh Clarity for example on a Bounty Hunter? or ANY Dagger class for that matter if you have played one, you will know how fast they can burn through mana, or archers for that fact, gotta remember, without mana, they cant shoot their arrows.......
Clarity doesn't actually affect bowshots, but I'm sure you knew that... Yes, daggers burn through their MP faster. With clarity, they can do 10% extra damage or so - that's less than might level 3.
Again, people always try to justify there arguments based of a point base, i mean, how many times you go upto a mob, kill it once and log out?
I dont know about you, but i play for hours on end before i log out and try to kill as many mobs as i can with in those playign hours, which over a period of time, adds up greatly.
10% more is 10% more and it stacks with Might 3 + Greater Might 3, so where is the problem? 10% more damage works out to be alot if you put it into how many hours you played and how much damage you put out over that session played....
As for clarity not effecting bow shots? Whats 10% of 3 MalineII? The differnce it makes on such a small number is not nopticeable is the reason why it would seem that it doesnt effect it. Now let me help you understand how game mechanics work:
3 - 10% = 2.7 seconds.
Now in a world where the UI in this game doesnt display point form, except for experience, id say that Clarity acually does effect bow shots and mana usage, but the effect is so small that its rounded back up to 3 again, if it was 2.3, id be willing to bet that bow shots would be rounded down to 2 mana per shot instead of 3.
So 3 - 0.3 rounded is still 3...meaning it has no effect. Since when did archers run out of mana anyways? PRs and HEs both picked up body to mind, SRs have great mana regen, and one recharge lets them shoot another 15 shots. Clarity is a fun buff, but with a BD/SWS in an archer group, you ask the EE not to put it up.
The EE is still the least desired party member. Strong party layouts include:
Melee
WC/Bishop
WC/SE
WC/EE
Nuker
SE/SE
SE/Bishop (party has zerk 1)
SE/EE
Mix
Prophet/SE
Prophet/EE
Prophet/Bishop
Any of those parties can take DDs and go exp...but the top of the list is the best party possible for each base. The EE is never the most desired class.
Finally since you love Clarity so much...
A 10% reduction in MP cost lets a nuker deal 10% more damage per mana.
Empower, a 75% matk boost, adds 75% more matk to your weapon base ... or a solid 50% more damage per mana.
Which would you prefer? There is always something you wish you had instead of the EE, this is not the case for all the other healers.
Clarity most definatly does not affect bow shots. It affects active skills and spells only, not bow shots and not crafting.
Why do these topics always turn into SE vs EE threads? It's getting a bit old. In PvE the SE heals well enough, compared to an EE to handle most groups (and better in some cases), and can be the sole buffer in most groups also (not at the same time). However the EE can't be the only buffer, and as soon as a group has a buffer (SE/WC/PP) and BD+SwS the EE doesn't get to buff at all.
So an EE can be a healer, or recharger (rarely buffing unique buffs), the SE can be healer, buffer, or recharger (usually buffing unique buffs).
The new skills/buffs didn't make it easier for an EE to find random pickup groups. Almost all EE buffs are situational, and not "required" for levelling.
To be honest though, I doubt the balance in this game will ever be fixed (for EE in PvE or SE in PvP). What I'd like to see happen in PvE at least, is mob HP reduced a lot, but mob damage increased (at least for multi-hp mobs), and more worthwhile defensive buffs, that can really take that damage down.
Then at least people might have to think about whtether they want offensive of defensive buffs, or include an extra healer. Offensive buffs if they want to kill fast, but without an extra healer, they'll have downtime. Defensive buffs would have slower killspeed, but be safer and have less downtime.
Well, maybe not a very well thought out idea. But it would be nice if people had to at least think about which buffs they wanted.
I'm happy with my EE, sure it can be hard to find pickup groups, but I enjoy playing her. Oh, and no thanks to Focus, Guidance and Death Whisper. Giving classes other classes skills is silly, I'd much prefer new skills.
Yeah...my lethal strike is a fear spell which lands based on INT and matk. The land rate in a 100 cast test is about 20% better (relative statistic...that means 10 > 12 or 20 > 24 btw) for fear with empower3 than without. The lethal strike rate was boosted by approximately the same (17%). So yes...its pretty obvious an matk skill is boosted by empower...just like Hex land rate increases with emp. Skills that do damage, don't tend to take into account matk or patk for skill effects (ice bolt doesn't care if you hit for 1 damage, it can still debuff run speed) IMO, but most statistics say otherwise. Either way fear spells don't do damage, but the lethal effect does when it lands...at a higher rate with empower.
So...we end up with all Hex classes taking emp...my tank takes emp for these skills. So once again...you show a complete lack of understanding whatsoever. Surprise right? Hehe, not to me. Do you have any clue how L2 even works? Are you playing this game even?
No Luke, your running of hear say that people seem to have created this Matk notion effects your land rate on curse effects........not to mention you cant see how much Mentaility a monster has, which is used to resist curse based spells / abilities.
I think if you do a search here in the forums there was a thread that displayed that Matk does nothing but increase the amount of damage done by direct damage spells.
Matk and Patk are one in the same, just one effects magic, the other effects melee, nothing else. There is no hidden mechanic in Matk, i mean why would they put a hidden mechanic in just Matk alone and none of the others? Just doesnt make any sense what so ever. Its the same as Pdef and Evasion, Pdef means how much damage you absorb and Evasion is your chance to dodge, there is no hidden mechanic in Pdef offering you more chances to evade then what Evasion does for you.
It would be like saying the higher my Patk the more chance i have of landing Back Stab......... :) Or the higher my Patk the more chances i have of hitting the mob when using a melee weapon. :D We can only wish...... ;)
I just happened to mention that Hex quote to a 72 BD, and he politely laughed and said " where did you read that? L2 blah? " I had to have a snicker......he went on to tell me to say that the only reason he asks for Empower is for Drain Life for PvP.
But what ever Luke, if you think or if it feels like it helps you land your lethal strike, go right ahead, knock yourself out.
For me the only thing i believe increases my chances at landing curse based effects is a Bsps, and thats been done over thousands of mobs, not 100.....
Clarity most definatly does not affect bow shots. It affects active skills and spells only, not bow shots and not crafting.
Yes at the current moment it does not effect bow shots as already pointed out because it rounds it off to the nearest decimal which in this case is 3, so no effect, but if the Clarity spell raises in levels in future expasions, then the possibility for it to effect them does exsist.
Why do these topics always turn into SE vs EE threads? It's getting a bit old. In PvE the SE heals well enough, compared to an EE to handle most groups (and better in some cases), and can be the sole buffer in most groups also (not at the same time). However the EE can't be the only buffer, and as soon as a group has a buffer (SE/WC/PP) and BD+SwS the EE doesn't get to buff at all.
Honestly i have no clue how or why these posts and threads get munipliated into becoming something there not intended to be, but it usually comes down to peoples reading abilities.
Ill aggree with you though to a extent, if you put a WC, OL, PP or SE in a group with a EE, they still get to buff, just not as much, so you have them concentrate more on healing less on buffing, so its still all balanced anyways, and every group needs a Buffer + Healer, now the vareity is just a little more wider after C5.
So an EE can be a healer, or recharger (rarely buffing unique buffs), the SE can be healer, buffer, or recharger (usually buffing unique buffs).
Sure, a PP could heal, a WC can heal, they can all heal to a extent, but a EE shines a tad bit more in healing then most classes because it obviously gets more orientated healing skills.
The new skills/buffs didn't make it easier for an EE to find random pickup groups. Almost all EE buffs are situational, and not "required" for levelling.
I still get a EE in our group when ever i can, so what do i have in the group, i have a PP, SE and EE in the group, big deal, ive got no problem with it, nor do the people im grouping with as long as the xp is at a consistant flow and everyone is having fun, it really doesnt matter.
Not directed at you this part, just people will misread this as usual and start saying " but why do you need them there blah blah.... ", which to my asnwer is i dont care who i group with, im not a min / max player, well i am, but not when it comes to groups, if we cant get a BD or SwS we work around it, if we cant get a EE, we work around it, if we cant get a Bishop, we work around it, its all good.
To be honest though, I doubt the balance in this game will ever be fixed (for EE in PvE or SE in PvP). What I'd like to see happen in PvE at least, is mob HP reduced a lot, but mob damage increased (at least for multi-hp mobs), and more worthwhile defensive buffs, that can really take that damage down.
It would seem there already going that direction, ask some lower level players around 40+ that have gone to the new lower level areas around Shuttgart, there tough mobs, even for solo mobs, nothing like pre C5 mobs thats for sure.
With the introduction of the new +6 armor bonuses and Greater Shield etc, Clarity also, i can see more tougher group content coming out to the extent where burst healing is a must have.
Then at least people might have to think about whtether they want offensive of defensive buffs, or include an extra healer. Offensive buffs if they want to kill fast, but without an extra healer, they'll have downtime. Defensive buffs would have slower killspeed, but be safer and have less downtime.
Well, maybe not a very well thought out idea. But it would be nice if people had to at least think about which buffs they wanted.
Totally agree.
I'm happy with my EE, sure it can be hard to find pickup groups, but I enjoy playing her. Oh, and no thanks to Focus, Guidance and Death Whisper. Giving classes other classes skills is silly, I'd much prefer new skills.
Im glad there is some level headed Eleven Elders around still, makes me feel much safer at night when im sleeping. :)
Yes at the current moment it does not effect bow shots as already pointed out because it rounds it off to the nearest decimal which in this case is 3, so no effect, but if the Clarity spell raises in levels in future expasions, then the possibility for it to effect them does exsist.
Crafting already costs more than ample enough MP to see an effect if it existed. It doesn't.
I'm not a min/max player either, but your constant claims that somehow EEs and SEs are balanced for PvE are just ridiculous.
I'm not a min/max player either, but your constant claims that somehow EEs and SEs are balanced for PvE are just ridiculous.
Like i said, show me where i have said they are balanced and ill help you learn some more reading english abilities.
If i recall, i said that the reason behind the skills they got in C5 over the top of a SE was to make them more desireable to group with, in other words was a NCsoft attempt at balancing them out, now of course at the same time, i wasnt happy with the way they nerfed SE's in the process and i have over come the anger and moved on.
Yes at the current moment it does not effect bow shots as already pointed out because it rounds it off to the nearest decimal which in this case is 3, so no effect, but if the Clarity spell raises in levels in future expasions, then the possibility for it to effect them does exsist.
Nope, bow attacks work in a different manner to skills. Unless Clarity is changed to specifically affect bow attacks, then even if it saved 50% mp you wouldn't see any change. The only thing I'm not sure about with Clarity is whether it affects toggle costs, both the initial and then the extra cost per tick (I'd guess not).
Ill aggree with you though to a extent, if you put a WC, OL, PP or SE in a group with a EE, they still get to buff, just not as much, so you have them concentrate more on healing less on buffing, so its still all balanced anyways, and every group needs a Buffer + Healer, now the vareity is just a little more wider after C5.
It's true, you need a buffer or a healer. But SE is the only class that can take either role and do them well enough for decent exp groups, EE and Bishops have to be taken as a healer, Prophets/WCs as buffers.
I still get a EE in our group when ever i can, so what do i have in the group, i have a PP, SE and EE in the group, big deal, ive got no problem with it, nor do the people im grouping with as long as the xp is at a consistant flow and everyone is having fun, it really doesnt matter.
Our groups sometimes have a Prophet, EE and two Bishops :). A lot of people though, do want to build the perfect group, and an EE doesn't fit into the majority of these.
LOL and you called me immature. You don't have a leg to stand on (not to mention a brain to think with). Go test your "hex theory." Take off all your jewelry and see if it lands more frequently. Your posts are as ******ed as ever. Just quit posting and save us all the pain of reading this stupidity.
LOL and you called me immature. You don't have a leg to stand on (not to mention a brain to think with). Go test your "hex theory." Take off all your jewelry and see if it lands more frequently. Your posts are as ******ed as ever. Just quit posting and save us all the pain of reading this stupidity.
Do i have to mention anything here? I mean the part where you say take of all your jewelry and see if it lands more often.... :p
Yes at the current moment it does not effect bow shots as already pointed out because it rounds it off to the nearest decimal which in this case is 3, so no effect, but if the Clarity spell raises in levels in future expasions, then the possibility for it to effect them does exsist.
Nope, bow attacks work in a different manner to skills. Unless Clarity is changed to specifically affect bow attacks, then even if it saved 50% mp you wouldn't see any change. The only thing I'm not sure about with Clarity is whether it affects toggle costs, both the initial and then the extra cost per tick (I'd guess not).
Well your probally right, but for now there is no real way to test it until the point becomes where there is a 100% chance to see if it does effect it or not.
Ill aggree with you though to a extent, if you put a WC, OL, PP or SE in a group with a EE, they still get to buff, just not as much, so you have them concentrate more on healing less on buffing, so its still all balanced anyways, and every group needs a Buffer + Healer, now the vareity is just a little more wider after C5.
It's true, you need a buffer or a healer. But SE is the only class that can take either role and do them well enough for decent exp groups, EE and Bishops have to be taken as a healer, Prophets/WCs as buffers.
SE's healing potential has taken a pretty big whack, more then what alot of people make it out to be, but im not here to debate that because im quite happy sacraficing healing potential for buffs, sort of the reverse for EE's who sacarifice buffs for healing, although i will agree, EE's need more unquie abilities.
I been thinking about this for awhile and im really not sure if this has ever been mentioned but alot of people talk about how mana ineffcient certain classes are compaired to others and its true, some can burn through mana in less then 3 mobs, and then you have others who can go a long sustained period of time without even needed a recharge.
SE's deal in the dark arts and VR is a Dark Magic ability and light elves in Light Magic, so what about some sort of Mana regen type skill based on the same principal as VR, only being able to be used my Melee, acually i shouldnt say only used by melee, but more or less put to use the most by melee and regens their mana as they do damage to the mob, would be a perfect tool for say BH's, Daggers, WS's who want to craft on the go, classes who really burn through their mana quickly. Obviously its not going to work on casters, but thats where recharge still stays in gameplay.
I still get a EE in our group when ever i can, so what do i have in the group, i have a PP, SE and EE in the group, big deal, ive got no problem with it, nor do the people im grouping with as long as the xp is at a consistant flow and everyone is having fun, it really doesnt matter.
Our groups sometimes have a Prophet, EE and two Bishops :). A lot of people though, do want to build the perfect group, and an EE doesn't fit into the majority of these.
I suppose it wouldnt be fair to say they dont fit, they just dont have a very active role to play when in it, they ethier heal and crowd control and lets be honest, how often do we ever need crowd control anyway? Hardly ever, so thats why i suggested the Mana regen ability for melee characters in the same style or form as VR seeing they get Clarity, NCsoft may as well countine down this mana effcient type of class.
Oh, Kirssa, its already been pointed out that Clarity sure as hell does weigh up against Empower
Not really. Clarity is a "nice to have" buff, while Empower is a "must have" one.
While i agree its a nice to have buff, its also not situational and benefits any group set up, Empower how ever only effects casters, situational.
Clarity benefits noone if the group's MP pool is not strained, and usually does not give sufficient benefits for the group to consider changing the levelling area. Empower directly affects the choice of levelling areas for nukers.
Exactaly, Empower ONLY effects Nukers meaning situational.
Every buff is "situational". Empower is essential for a good half of the server population, Clarity is not.
Clarity still effects everyones MP usage and i dont know about you, but i know of alot of classes that strain their Mana pools consistantly....
It does not mean that they could actually notice these extra 10% of MP in their PvE.
before you try this which is the direction i can see you going, you also cannot look at it from what you save per cast, rather you have to look at it from how much mana you save from a session grinding, which could easily break into the thousands, obviously depending on how long you play for, which obviously results in alot less recharging.
Meaningless. You don't grind to with the goal to save MP. You don't grind with the goal to do more recharging. You grind to get more XP.
i hate to say it, pity you probally havent been able to try it though, and who says you cant have a SE in the group for VR + Empower and a EE for Clarity + Major Heal?
I'm sorry, but it is you who shows a complete lack of experience in the topic. When I am in a PvE party with an SE, the party doesn't need Major Heal and only rarely needs Clarity.
Why wouldnt it need Major Heal?
Because Greater Heal and occasional Vitalize are enough in these groups.
Of course it is, when everything is going ok that is.....put some adds in there or a train runs past or PvP eventuates while in the middle of already fighting PvE, etc etc.
Trance and/or PR.
Major Heal won't save you if Vitalize is not enough. It will only make you die first.
SE dont get Major heal and if the SE was for some reason paraylsised or stunned, which a EE cannot cure, then who would be healing?
SE doesn't heal in these groups anyway. SE buffs and recharges, EE heals and provides crowd control.
So where is the problem again?
Dunno. What is the problem of a stunned SE? Buffs expiring, or what?
Now if for some unforseen reason that the EE and SE were paraylized, then the EE could use Major Heal to quickly and more effciently top up the tank by the time it wears off.
Sorry?
Sorry? Sorry for what? Sorry for not understanding who would heal if both healers were stunned or paralyzied?
EE and SE are the highest Mdef and the highest Men toons in the party. If they are both paralysed, there is nothing to heal when paralysis wears off.
And a single stun is not a problem at all.
If for some unforseen reason the group was taking a aoe damage abilitiy, the SE is there for Greater Group Heal, so yeah its works out ok, obviously not the best combo, but works alot better then most might think.
SE usually does not have enough cast speed for its GGH to be useful in groups with an EE.
You must be kidding right? Thats a pretty bold statement, saying a EE can heal a 9 person group not only more effceintly single target healing, but also faster then 1 person can casting once with one single heal that effects 9 people at once.......
If an AoE nuke hits me or another high-mdef class, the damage is not so big to be bothered with heals. If there are some toons with too low Mdef or who are critted, they will be healed by single-target battleheals (yes, it is faster than group heal, and safer for all the players involved). VR will heal the rest.
I dont know about you, but a Bsps Group Heal is pretty fast, and if you can effciently and faster heal 9 people with single target heals then 1 group heal can, then my hat is off to you........
I play a healer, not a buffpet. Fast and efficient healing is my main job in the game.
Wow this thread has grown....
Im lovin my EE sub :) I subbed an EE because I wanted a PvP healer.. I wanted a class that was more of a healer than a buffer, and I wanted a class thats versitile and able to do more than just regenerate HP. Cant say I miss offensive buffs.... havent even got my 48 heals yet.. but for the moment, Im not missing DW/Focus/Guidance.
I dont think either Elder should be getting any new offensive buffs , what the game really needs is more PVP defense buffs.
Basically, if a DD can multiply his dmg output by x6 times , due to offensive buff stacking......there should be the ability to do the same for defense via buffs....currently overall defense can be increased by about 50% with buffs....this is a 12:1 ratio in favor of attack.............and is the main reason why PvP is so broken to the extent it lasts an average of 3-5 seconds.
We need some seriously enhanced defensive buffs for all support classes.....but SE/EE are probably the best candidates to get some new defense specific buffs (holy/unholy resist was a start, but there are tons more needed...resist arrow,resist dagger,resist critical, etc)
#
Critical hits need to be changed utterly, all players should have an automatic crit-avoidance stat -- which should be defensively buffable up to a 50% cap same as the attacks are , and any successful crits should have to make a second check vs the defenders crit-avoidance, thus a fully buffed defender can resist 50% of the crits thrown at him....This would mean attackers fully buffed to crit 50% of their shots would only actually land these crits 25% of the time vs a fully buffed defender....etc.
Now this actually only equalises things vs crit rate (focus/hunter) , we still need to equalise vs crit-dmg (death-whisper/dance) so crit-dmg received should also be reducable via buffs , again to the same extent as they can be multiplied......
I'd think, we could give EEs the crit-avoidance buff(a reverse focus), and give SE the crit-dmg reduction buff(reverse deathwhisper) , SWS should also get crit-avoidance song and BD get crit-dmg-reduction dance, etc....
Voila Archers are balanced.........
TBH we probably need to wait for L3 before this extent of fixing ever happens though.
I dont think either Elder should be getting any new offensive buffs , what the game really needs is more PVP defense buffs.
Basically, if a DD can multiply his dmg output by x6 times , due to offensive buff stacking......there should be the ability to do the same for defense via buffs....currently overall defense can be increased by about 50% with buffs....this is a 12:1 ratio in favor of attack.............and is the main reason why PvP is so broken to the extent it lasts an average of 3-5 seconds.
We need some seriously enhanced defensive buffs for all support classes.....but SE/EE are probably the best candidates to get some new defense specific buffs (holy/unholy resist was a start, but there are tons more needed...resist arrow,resist dagger,resist critical, etc)
#
Critical hits need to be changed utterly, all players should have an automatic crit-avoidance stat -- which should be defensively buffable up to a 50% cap same as the attacks are , and any successful crits should have to make a second check vs the defenders crit-avoidance, thus a fully buffed defender can resist 50% of the crits thrown at him....This would mean attackers fully buffed to crit 50% of their shots would only actually land these crits 25% of the time vs a fully buffed defender....etc.
Now this actually only equalises things vs crit rate (focus/hunter) , we still need to equalise vs crit-dmg (death-whisper/dance) so crit-dmg received should also be reducable via buffs , again to the same extent as they can be multiplied......
I'd think, we could give EEs the crit-avoidance buff(a reverse focus), and give SE the crit-dmg reduction buff(reverse deathwhisper) , SWS should also get crit-avoidance song and BD get crit-dmg-reduction dance, etc....
Voila Archers are balanced.........
TBH we probably need to wait for L3 before this extent of fixing ever happens though.
Well susgested wasterx, totally agree 100%, also like i point out in the previous thread, something to help EE's along this line is a Mana regen buff in VR form for Melee that chew through mana like no tomorrow.
SE's deal in the dark arts and VR is a Dark Magic ability and light elves in Light Magic, so what about some sort of Mana regen type skill based on the same principal as VR, only being able to be used my Melee, acually i shouldnt say only used by melee, but more or less put to use the most by melee and regens their mana as they do damage to the mob, would be a perfect tool for say BH's, Daggers, WS's who want to craft on the go, classes who really burn through their mana quickly. Obviously its not going to work on casters, but thats where recharge still stays in gameplay.
What wasterx has suggested and this could just tip the scales in favour of balance, the only other thing is, will it ever happen? Like he also pointedo ut, yeah most likely Lineage 3, i tend to agree with him.
"As long as we get emp.. we dont care who heals..."
I've been in many parties where I or someone else has to drag a pocket SE along with us as we have an EE or bish for healer.
I will however state that I lothe the ppl that tell me I do enough damage w/o emp. Sure, me w/o emp is the same as you w/o guidance, haste, focus and might.
The only thing I'm not sure about with Clarity is whether it affects toggle costs, both the initial and then the extra cost per tick (I'd guess not).
If it affected toggles and had a higher %age, it would totally rock - would make a nice boost for TKs also: Being able to level with GS on would rock (SKs can't really because they need the MP to hex).
PS: Actually, emp makes, in sheer numbers, about as much of a difference as haste and might - 75% extra MAtk plays out to somewhere around 40% (I know, really rough estimate - it depends on the total MAtk after all) extra damage, might does somewhere between 8 and 15% (it depends on your masteries) and haste 33% - since they multiply into each other, you reach similar boost values.
This reply is for the thread but this is just to reiterate and clarify why I asked for those buffs. When the EE hits level 40 it really has nothing unique to offer to a party and very difficult to level. The upgrade to C grade also makes any unique buffs from the EE negligible or even irrelevant. At 48 the EE gets greater heal but the level 35 heals works just fine or even better especially if there's a need to spam it. It's fast and cheap and returns more hp. At level 56 the EE gets trance. Woop de doo, nice crowd control but lasts for 10 seconds. Which means you can't sleep a mob and run off because when it wakes up it can still target you. Sure there's mana burn, erase, turn undead, oh and MAJOR heal.
So let's say major heal is a great milestone and EE should be happy with it. Now how do you get the EE to 56 and not have it shout in town for a whole week for a party that might last only 1 hour. It's true that good friends and a good clan can help.
Anyway this was not about taking something away from someone although I might have mentioned something about VR. It's more about adding something so a class becomes more desirable for everyday xping expecially at the lower levels. Maybe EEs should just 2box an SE and go undead nuking.
So let's say major heal is a great milestone and EE should be happy with it. Now how do you get the EE to 56 and not have it shout in town for a whole week for a party that might last only 1 hour. It's true that good friends and a good clan can help.
Purchase Theca (or Drake if you're a girl, or PLeather if you're a visual masochist). Purchase SLS/Focus.
Whack away.
Realise you're not gimp enough and two-box a prophet for the most awesomest melee duo of all time.
When the EE hits level 40 it really has nothing unique to offer to a party and very difficult to level.
Indeed. It was difficult in C4 (unless you had a stable raid team), it is even worse in C5.
The best solution here is to find a good clan. If it is impossible, then try finding groups in EV or DV, spellsinger duos around Heine or duos with Bounty Hunter alts of A-grade dual users wherever a good spoil is.
As a last resort, solo meleeing Windsus, then switching to nuking Shackles could work, too.
At 48 the EE gets greater heal but the level 35 heals works just fine or even better especially if there's a need to spam it. It's fast and cheap and returns more hp.
At 48 EE gets two heals: fast but not so cheap (Vitalize) and slow-working but quite cheap (GH). At this level EE becomes slightly better routine-spam healer (say, for large polearm trains where VR is not enough) than Bishop.
EE with focus, guidance and deathwhisper would be nice but as high as level 2. Also vr1 and 2 but no higher.
If EE should have been the defensive buffer then there are a few buffs that should be stripped from the other buffers and given to the EE. Otherwise give the EE some real buffs.
I don't think adding these buffs will really help, why even with these would any group take an EE over an SE? If they already have a Prophet in group then they don't even need these buffs from the healer anyway. Empower and Vampiric Rage, are what makes it hard for an EE to find a group over an SE, adding the other buffs won't change this I think.
The problem is, even if an EE can be a good enough healer for a certain group, there are always those people that can't be without Vampiric Rage. Finding groups is hard, not because the EE couldn't be a healer (but not a buffer) in group, but because some people want what they perceive as the "perfect" group.
It'd be much better to make the EEs current buffs more usefull, so people can see a difference in levelling when they have them.
At level 56 the EE gets trance. Woop de doo, nice crowd control but lasts for 10 seconds. Which means you can't sleep a mob and run off because when it wakes up it can still target you
If you realy want to run away from a mob, and not just disable it until your group wants to kill it. Then you should either Return, or Serenade of Eva. Serenade of Eva is one of the EEs most underrated skills, and since the changes to sleep I've been using it a lot more.
Crafting already costs more than ample enough MP to see an effect if it existed. It doesn't.
Clarity does not affect crafting in any way. Crafting is not implemented in the same way as other skills/attacks (e.g. you can do it while sitting, no cooldown, etc), and they didn't choose to make the Clarity effect alter it (or if they did, they added it later than the original C5 release, when I tested that).
As to whether or not it would affect archery shots -- who knows. Archery shots are *probably* implemented the same way as skills, so you might see a clarity effect if it were at least 33%, but we won't really know.
The only thing I'm not sure about with Clarity is whether it affects toggle costs, both the initial and then the extra cost per tick (I'd guess not).
It affects both.
Major Heal won't save you if Vitalize is not enough. It will only make you die first.
Tested on a level 60. With bsps and Clarity, Vitalize heals 812 HP for a cost of 114 MP. Net healing is 7.1 HP per MP.
With bsps and Clarity, Major Heal heals 938 HP for a cost of 63 MP. Net healing is 14.8 HP per MP, in other words more than double as MP efficient as Vitalize. That means you can cast twice as many Major Heals than you can Vitalizes before your mana runs out. Vitalize is very useful when you also need to cure bleed/poison but it's by far the least MP efficient heal in the EE's arsenal.
Further, Major Heal is spammable (cooldown < cast time), Vitalize has a cooldown longer than cast time. Cast times are the same. That means not only does major heal 15% more HP, you can recast it faster (approximately 1.2 major heals per vitalize). Overall you can heal approximately 38% more per unit time with Major Heal, and you consume less MP doing it.
Overall, my usual melee group runs with an EE for clarity, holy weapon, and resist unholy, and a warcryer for the DD buffs. We fight pdef-weak holy-weak monsters who use dark attacks. The combination of the buffer and healer is crazy good. Clarity also really helps our bounty hunter; it not only increases the effective MP pool by but also shortens the time needed to regenerate the MP from a particular skill use (because the skill takes less MP, it takes less time to regenerate the MP spent). In the case of our bounty hunter it equates to more spoils.
cant believe ppl still talking here..dont get it..the class' are balanced as they are now.
The only thing that could need a change could be what Larielle already mentioned, to make the EE buffs more effective. Giving SE buffs to EE or Bishops is TOTALLY ridiculous, it would make SE completly useless, since they cant heal anymore. SE as main healer alone in full party c5 is pretty hard to play now. Always needs EE or Bishop.
So stop crying and play ur chars as they are meant to be playd, if u cant then reroll, who cares. Cant hear all this bs anymore.
Major Heal won't save you if Vitalize is not enough. It will only make you die first.
Tested on a level 60. With bsps and Clarity, Vitalize heals 812 HP for a cost of 114 MP. Net healing is 7.1 HP per MP.
With bsps and Clarity, Major Heal heals 938 HP for a cost of 63 MP. Net healing is 14.8 HP per MP, in other words more than double as MP efficient as Vitalize. That means you can cast twice as many Major Heals than you can Vitalizes before your mana runs out.
Mana efficiency is not an issue in the case given: both EE and SE are in the group, and something unforeseen happens. The only concern here is whether the tanking toon can outaggro EE spamming heals.
ill manage with just btb might focus shield though
woo hoo 60 million in staves, but it works lol
horray can team with a BD :P
it's not entirely true about offensive buffs > defensive. Prophecy of fire gives much more pdef than patk, and same with gr shield/might
they do need to fix the elves and give EE (and proph) reflect dmg, critical reduction buff ( really like this one) and resist aqua (why the hell does the sps get it?) freezing skin should slow movement by like 5%, and blazing skin should have chance to produce "flame" effect on melee. I realize this could make nukers/archers even better, but other areas could compensate.