Warlocks are very good at PvP, at a rare chance. ONLY if binding cubic lands do they stand any real chance against anything but tanks and heavy armor DDs.
well according to the developers, summoners are very strong and do tons and tons of dmg (like more then nukers and archers) so they had to lower their attack power of their summons. So according to this, warlocks were very strong in pvp. Now though, with the way NCsoft nerfs things, they might get beat by spoilers that are 50 lvls lower then them.
well according to the developers, summoners are very strong and do tons and tons of dmg (like more then nukers and archers) so they had to lower their attack power of their summons. So according to this, warlocks were very strong in pvp. Now though, with the way NCsoft nerfs things, they might get beat by spoilers that are 50 lvls lower then them.
Where is my violin pic when I need it....and yes you did do too much damage.
In C4 warlocks utterly destroyed just about every class in the Olympiad, though to nerf a class just on that is pretty stupid IMO. You should try l2pets.com, Emina, an arcana lord (warlock) hero on Kain posts there about the class.
You all seem to bash summoners for crying because their power (which I agree was very high, rightly so in my honest opinion) was nerfed. Do you think that would be any different if say, a Paladin's Heavy Armor masteries power was cut by 30%? Or if stacked crit buffs no longer stacked? Or if Acumen SA's were cut out of the picture, much like Might Mortal was?
Second, summoners were overpowered. No dagger can cry about the removal of MM, it was absurdly overpowered. Summoners still do very well in pvp, its not like they have been nerfed to insubstantial levels. If my pdef was absurdly overpowered, which it isn't even close to, a 30% nerf to my masteries would make sense. This was a logical change, though the introduction of erase makes many summoners scared. The summoner shouldnt be as powerful as a real dd, nor as effective as a real healer or buffer. They get a mix of many worlds. This is why the necro, for instance, is considered a broken class.
Whoever had the quote first makes no difference. It's in my sig, and it's not leaving.
Summoners were very powerful. A combination of Bishop level heals mixed in with a high HP high P Atk summon, Transfer Pain, plus Ultimate Defense, mana recharges, level 3 Shield. Magic Barrier, and level 2 haste make for one hell of a character, don't you think?
But what of the costs and pitfalls of summoners? They are expensive to level and keep. They, like all mystic classes, suffer from very low CON/DEX/STR, making them vulverable to high damage ranged attacks. Hey have little to NO crowd control. The summoner himself becomes more and more just a buffer/healer into the 60's. A summoner is his summon. Without it they have to means of damage mitigation, they cannot deal any reliable damage, they are nothing.
With C5 came Erase, and every summoner should be weary of Erase. However the various damage reductions, con-able summons, not able to unsummon in combat (No more training bots), and the overshadowing of other, more popular and more powerful classes is just overkill.
The only thing a summoner can be is a DD, possibly an assisting buffer. What good is a buffer with only two buffs? In solo play a summoner is a pure DD. In party play a summoner has the /option/ of becoming a DD or a buffer. Possibly both.
But it comes with a free party member healer with 2 buffs, debuff removal, and mass cubics. The summoner pays a monetary penalty (boo hoo like money is hard to comeby in L2? LOL yeah right) and an exp penalty. So if you have an alt WS and are willing to put in more time, the summoner is basically just a better character? The class has to be balanced. The exp penalty balances the never needing to look for a party. You can't suggest that this should balance the pvp skillset? Skill sets don't take such things into account...because they will all eventually be earned. You balance a class around what a lvl 78 in pure S grade can do with it...you balance the destination, you don't suggest that because it levels slower or tougher it should be all powerful. That's just foolish. It levels slower or costs more because it is independent.
That is true, but to justify lowering the P Atk/M Atk in PvP just because what it will become at the end of a long and ardous journey, one that you yourself have yet to complete, is rediculous. It's like reading only the prologue and epilogue of a book because the actual body of the story is too entertaining.
I have no problems with the costs of leveling a summoner, I think they are justified easily by the complexity of the class and are easily taken care of by a level 40 Warsmith. I also agree that the exp penalty is nescesary and I deal with that. It's not like the leveling slower is much of a problem, it adds mysteriousness to the class, as well as a proud sense of accomplishment. What other class has an entire website devoted to them?
Why a class who was already so few in number was pushed upon harshly is beyond me. People were amazed when the first summoner Hero appeared, yet not many cared when there was a Soultaker, or even a Cardinal Hero. Everytime I see a summoner class on Lionna I give them a rec, just for being there. Sometimes I wish that wasn't so symbolic.
we exist, just few in number. and we don't level but so slowly. i can push about 18% an hour at lvl 50 solo, perhaps 25% in a small party or when I have my SE clan leader OOP buffing me and the cat with VR.
the biggest weakness we summoners have in PvE is lack of crowd control and lack of crit power. our cats have the crit rate of a blunt weapon, so even though the raw numbers look impressive, we don't do quite as much damage as might be expected.
actually, lack of the ability to modify our summons stats is perhaps the biggest problem we face. every other class can use tattoos to shore up weak areas, or reinforce strengths, with us, we really can't.
pvp we can still hold our own fairly well solo against most classes, 'cept healers now. the nerfing of sleep has even made it possible for us to chase down and beat up nukers. mass pvp is another story, but it always has been. summon pdef and mdef is a joke for the most part, less than robes, and even without considering erase, a summon won't last long if targeted. our heals are powerful, but slow, especially if the summoner is in light armor.
The only reason people think Summoners are good in PvP is because of Olympaid. Summoners are only strong in self buff 1v1 pvp with no bsps.
Hero competition:
-No bsps = Erase/Fear hardly land
-No support buff focus/deadly whisper/dance/ = Low melee damage
-No acumen/empower/bsps = Nuke only do 1/4 of the normal damage, and alot slower.
-Healer/buffer has buffs, but they has no attack
-Warcyer/Overlord has mana management problem against summoner with nearly infinite mana.
-Mental Aegis SA, with this, sleep/trance hardly hand, and because you cannot use bsps.... you'll be lucky to land sleep on the summoner
Only people that can beat summoner in 1v1 self buff no bsps are DA (chain stun + kitty) and WC (self buff + nuke).
Now look at real pvp, how often you see people pvp outside w/o buffs?
-Archer of the same level with prophet buff+ dance can 1 criti a unicorn to 1/4 health, so in average it will only take 2 hit for an archer to kill a summons. With Haste and 500+ critical rate that made archer critical almost 2/3, your summon will die before it reach the archer.
-Dagger fully buffed, no common here, since summoner cannot deal fast damage like most DD, they have more than enough time to get close and 2 shot bypass your CP.
-Mage, with summons low mdef(half of TH's mdef), bsps/empower = sleep/fear lands 50%+ unlike in hero competitoin where only sps are allow. Summoner has almost no chance against a mage.
-Healer/buffer, HAH , erase land 1/2 of the time with bsps. GG
-Now look at a summoner fully buffed. Summons had very attack speed, with haste 2, their attack speed is only as fast as a wolf with haste 1(and wolfs are slow). Let's put this in a more simple way, a dagger with haste 2 will hit twices as fast as a summon with the same buffs.
-Max critical rate for summon with song of hunter is 100, with focus 3 is 50. The only criti like 1/20, while dagger/archer/even dorf critical rate are are a lot higher. Dagger/archer can critical 1/3 at least, with hunter 2/3. Critical is the most important factor in PVP, because it allow you to do 6x of the normal damage with dw and dance.
-Cast speed, without acumen, summon's nuke cast as fast as a heavy armor DA trying to use drain, while nuker can shoot like a machine gun.
-C5 pvp damage nerf(estimate to be 15-30%).
-With BSPS/Acumen 3/Acumen SA/Robe, it take 8second to resummon (including the time it take for the summons corpse to disapear. you cannot resummon until its corpses are gone)
-Summons has lower pdef than robe user
-Summonres heal COST ALOT OF MANA, in fully buffs pvp you will not have enough time to ask your summon to recharge you. -Combine with low pdef/mdef +transfer pain= mana problem
In real pvp, summoner just don't get the same benefit from buff as other class do. There are no such thing as self buff pvp, since buffs are so easy to access everywhere, and no one will ever fight without buffs.
That's why summonres are not overpowered. If a fully buffed unicorn can get 2 hit by an archer, the summoner is just useless in open pvp.
Ah, summoners were overpowered only in specific PvP situations though - namely self-buffed, where all the usual powerhouses were suddenly weak.
And no, you can't DD and buff/heal at the same time - the Queen's, Seraphim's and Nightshade's PAtk is simply too shabby for that. We would indeed have been overpowered in party play if these summons had been left as is (and they would have gotten used for solo play, too, in all likelihood), and their power was cut by about 2/3rds - no problem.
kiunch has the crux of it - summoners own so much in 1v1 because they're so very mediochre at group PvP (the main reason servitors manage to close in on people is them being too lazy to shoot at them - same reason +CON dwarves make it, who wants to shoot that?). That was (and still is, NCSoft fixed very little, as far as the olympiad is concerned) the balance.
Now look at real pvp, how often you see people pvp outside w/o buffs?
-Archer of the same level with prophet buff+ dance can 1 criti a unicorn to 1/4 health, so in average it will only take 2 hit for an archer to kill a summons. With Haste and 500+ critical rate that made archer critical almost 2/3, your summon will die before it reach the archer.
-Dagger fully buffed, no common here, since summoner cannot deal fast damage like most DD, they have more than enough time to get close and 2 shot bypass your CP.
-Mage, with summons low mdef(half of TH's mdef), bsps/empower = sleep/fear lands 50%+ unlike in hero competitoin where only sps are allow. Summoner has almost no chance against a mage.
Which classes do these NOT apply to? Mages and archers have been overpowered for 5 chronicles and you think that justifies breaking your class too?
And there is a solution to erase in pt vs pt pvp. Everyone attacks the healers first to stop rezzing, and any healer trying to erase goes down fast. Sure he may get it off, but you can definately resummon then, as nobody will be targetting you ... like a slept character.
So it's fine for archers to be overpowered, since they're priority targets and everyone takes them down first anyway? (Not that I'm saying that healers are overpowered ... buffers are. ;) )
It's not just archers and mages that can rip a servitor apart faster than even a buffed summoner can try to heal it - any class that is smart enough to focus first on the servitor (then moving on to a different target when it gets UDed, so it can do maybe 3 or 4 nukes safely, and come back to finish it off when it really is defenseless) and then on the summoner will do the trick once buffs are involved.
And no, archers and nukers are broken classes that do way too much damage when buffed. As I stated, the fact that they are broken and can kill a summoner does not justify increasing summoner's strength.
The only reason people think Summoners are good in PvP is because of Olympaid. Summoners are only strong in self buff 1v1 pvp with no bsps.
Hero competition:
-No bsps = Erase/Fear hardly land
-No support buff focus/deadly whisper/dance/ = Low melee damage
-No acumen/empower/bsps = Nuke only do 1/4 of the normal damage, and alot slower.
-Healer/buffer has buffs, but they has no attack
-Warcyer/Overlord has mana management problem against summoner with nearly infinite mana.
-Mental Aegis SA, with this, sleep/trance hardly hand, and because you cannot use bsps.... you'll be lucky to land sleep on the summoner
Only people that can beat summoner in 1v1 self buff no bsps are DA (chain stun + kitty) and WC (self buff + nuke).
Now look at real pvp, how often you see people pvp outside w/o buffs?
-Archer of the same level with prophet buff+ dance can 1 criti a unicorn to 1/4 health, so in average it will only take 2 hit for an archer to kill a summons. With Haste and 500+ critical rate that made archer critical almost 2/3, your summon will die before it reach the archer.
-Dagger fully buffed, no common here, since summoner cannot deal fast damage like most DD, they have more than enough time to get close and 2 shot bypass your CP.
-Mage, with summons low mdef(half of TH's mdef), bsps/empower = sleep/fear lands 50%+ unlike in hero competitoin where only sps are allow. Summoner has almost no chance against a mage.
-Healer/buffer, HAH , erase land 1/2 of the time with bsps. GG
-Now look at a summoner fully buffed. Summons had very attack speed, with haste 2, their attack speed is only as fast as a wolf with haste 1(and wolfs are slow). Let's put this in a more simple way, a dagger with haste 2 will hit twices as fast as a summon with the same buffs.
-Max critical rate for summon with song of hunter is 100, with focus 3 is 50. The only criti like 1/20, while dagger/archer/even dorf critical rate are are a lot higher. Dagger/archer can critical 1/3 at least, with hunter 2/3. Critical is the most important factor in PVP, because it allow you to do 6x of the normal damage with dw and dance.
-Cast speed, without acumen, summon's nuke cast as fast as a heavy armor DA trying to use drain, while nuker can shoot like a machine gun.
-C5 pvp damage nerf(estimate to be 15-30%).
-With BSPS/Acumen 3/Acumen SA/Robe, it take 8second to resummon (including the time it take for the summons corpse to disapear. you cannot resummon until its corpses are gone)
-Summons has lower pdef than robe user
-Summonres heal COST ALOT OF MANA, in fully buffs pvp you will not have enough time to ask your summon to recharge you. -Combine with low pdef/mdef +transfer pain= mana problem
In real pvp, summoner just don't get the same benefit from buff as other class do. There are no such thing as self buff pvp, since buffs are so easy to access everywhere, and no one will ever fight without buffs.
That's why summonres are not overpowered. If a fully buffed unicorn can get 2 hit by an archer, the summoner is just useless in open pvp.
A very well informned post, nice summary.
Just don't forget the cheaters and now the in-game herbs into account who also managed to break one of our main strengh: solo ability. This was one of the primary feature we could offer when a player had to consider a 2nd class change: our nuker cousin weren't as "independant".
Unitl I quit, I saw so many nukers "soloing": 1 SE and 1 PP out of party to buff and recharge.. that's all they needed to overcome our "no downtime" abilities and with C5.. they only need some herbs from time to time.
lol, what a joke.. good luck to my fellow summoner friends.
For all your summoner info on Warlocks, ES, and PS go to L2Pets.com. Great bunch of people there!
I can only speak for Warlocks, but I find that playing the class is fun, and that from a PvP standpoint can do some damage if left un-checked.
MassPvP; Queen Cat for Crit buff is a must have for any archer group. You will be more effective if you hang with an archer group. Also Mass Storm Cubic for that extra damage added to each of your group members can go a long way.
1v1 PVP; Depends on the class but if you are fully buffed, you can hold your own and deal some nice damage! Stay away from the healers with erase.... that skill is evil and should never been put in game! TP is your life line to lasting a long time in a fight!
PvE; Greatest solo class in the game. You don't need outside buffers to level non-stop (but they do help).
The single most troubleing thing that NCsoft did to us summons that I feel should be changed was the ability for anyone to target our summon and be able to see its HP and Level(red,light red, yello, white, light blue, blue) by seeing this puts summoners at a HUGE disadvantage. This reason along with some other summoner spicific changes NCsoft made to our class has seen a drop off of summoner classes. Again hop over to L2pets.com and visit their forums and find out more how summoners feel about the changes of C5. Personally my sig says it all! :P
Reducing our power in PvP was adding insult to injury! Didn't they do enough by introduing Betray/Erase/Mana Burn? I love my Warlock, but now I stay away from PvP. Instead of Fear the Cat! It's more like Fear the SE/PP/EE/Bish!