All daggers in c5 are OVERpowered... I let a dagger lvl 63(hmm i think he was AW though) to bstab me(i have a sorcy 61) and he 1shot me down.. My prominence without surrender did to him almost 1k dmg getting rid of his cp.
I mean this is ridiculous...I am supposed to be the nuker and he did 2x dmg ??Plus the ultra ridiculous c5 addition that overpasses CP
For some reason, on any forums I've ever been on, threads that starts with simply a title and "Discuss" as the sole word in the body of the opening post always irritate the hell out of me.
For some reason, on any forums I've ever been on, threads that starts with simply a title and "Discuss" as the sole word in the body of the opening post always irritate the hell out of me.
I let a dagger lvl 63(hmm i think he was AW though) to bstab me(i have a sorcy 61) and he 1shot me down.
There's your mistake there, how often in PvP will you be leaving your back open to a dagger while they get to point blank range?
Your nukes do 1k damage, from 900 range. With the casting speed that nukers have these days that's more time than is needed to throw out 3 nukes (which also means a dead dagger in most cases).
I let a dagger lvl 63(hmm i think he was AW though) to bstab me(i have a sorcy 61) and he 1shot me down.
There's your mistake there, how often in PvP will you be leaving your back open to a dagger while they get to point blank range?
Your nukes do 1k damage, from 900 range. With the casting speed that nukers have these days that's more time than is needed to throw out 3 nukes (which also means a dead dagger in most cases).
Exactly. I'm still in Dark Crystal heavy (+3) and none of the daggers break 1k on my tank...boy do they root easy though, and gotta love the crit rate debuff that makes them hit for 30 damage over and over and over. Hilarious.
Well in 1v1 if you are in a mutual war ur prolly(85+%) of the time as a nuker you have enough time to kill the dagger..
But in mass pvp it's so easy to turn your back in a dagger...
:)
I saw a level 75 BD, fully buffed, killed in one shot by a level 77 dagger in the arena. He completely bypassed the CP and did massive damage. The skill that bypasses the CP is plain stupid. Why should one class only get this skill?
1 skill that requires to be at melee range, behind, can do 0 damage, classes that have it got 1.3-1.9k cp (at lv 78) depending on con tats and bluff nerfed to almost useless skill vs 76+ players. I guess backstab is really overpowered indeed.
I like dagger how they are now, and i'm glad to see that they finally got some loving. The only thing I would change would be to remove skill critical from backstab and add it to deadly blow instead. If something that powerful can crit (and have a chance at lethal blow) it should probably have to go through cp as well as hp.
Other than that, I just think they've made daggers a worthwhile class in pvp again. Finally somebody for mages and archers to worry about.
Why not get a 1 shot kill. A nuker can magic crit, and result in a 1 shot kill. My BD is 75, and if a nuker = level crits him, he will die. If a TH crits him with backstab, he will probably die. A melee class can do same damage as a nuker now, that's the real problem I think. It doesnt bother me that a dagger can kill me. Ive died to a few daggers in pvp situations. Hell, a dagger dropped me and a dwarf out hunting one day (GG Redemption dagger vs Divine lol)I helped my Divine buddy and died, granted he was spamming CP pots, but it sure as hell took him alot of hits. In mass pvp, daggers should be able to odo massive damage quickly. Personally it iwll make pvp more fun. Now, its not archers an dnuker skill each other first, and let eveyrone else wait their turn. Daggers, with speed, can cause enough damage to make people wary.
MalineII is right anyone must do less damage by at least 50%
but that also request that NPC must be redused by 50%
what the fun of a pvp battle if it last 3 seconds ???
i dunno rater duel for like 5 mins then 3 second if you ask me
New Idea, don't try to kill classes when you think they are overpowered.
Tanks (probally a destroyer too cause they got like a billion HP) can kill the daggers...
Archers and daggers can kill nukers...
Nukers can kill tanks, and warrior types...
Support can well...support you duh! And maybe screw up a mage...
So yea...you will do good in pvp if you kill classes that "don't need to be nerfed" Because you only wanna nerf em so you can kill em, and then when you can kill eveyone then everyone will want you to be nerfed so that they can kill you. C'mon ppl, you can't kill everyone.
GET OVER IT!
Edit: I like fast pace pvp, either me killing someone fast or them dropping me fast. For slower pvp I will play a different game, but that is one reason why I like L2 pvp! :mad: You can't please everyone.
not only does dagger kill nukers but they 1 shot them, healers, someone even said a BD (someone w/ heavy armor) im sure daggers could come close to 1 shotting archers too(if they dont already 1 shot)
Yea I can get 1 shotted by a dagger, but my BD in Heavy armor also has -11 con. My necro can hold far more SS than my BD can as a result. Thats only bypassing CP, otherwise it would take him 2 hits ^^
Daggers should kill a mage before he can think. If a mage has time, he will simply slow and kite teh dagger. An archer can do the same. If the dagger is on top of you first, he has a chance of killing you. Sounds pretty balanced.
Well you see, if you try to run away from them the whole time, your back is always exposed. Turn and just start nuking him. And since a nuker can 3 shot a dagger before he even gets near him, I think the kill rate if he's on top of you should be about 90%.
Listen, healers are meant for healing, not killing. IF you want to actually kill stuff, pick something else. The only damage a healer/buffer can do is to use a debuff type spell or mana burn spells. If you don't like it, pick a more leathal class. A class with buffs, and heals should not also be lethal.
So a dagger can one shot you in the back as a nuker, or a Hawk Eye can one shot crit you. I know, happened to me many times. But being a nuker you can also unleash huge amounts of damage. Work as a team, be extra cautious around classes that can "one shot" you and you will do fine.
Dagger has to get to you, you are a nuker. Keep your distance. Kill him before he gets there. Who ever attacks first, always has an advantage. A nuker attacking first can keep his range, a dagger attacking first closes that range.
Every class shouldn't be just as powerful against everything else, because if that was so...there would be NO POINT for classes. Every class has their place, if you don't like it, change your class.
To comment on BD. Yes they have heavy armor, but no heavy armor masteries after they become a BD. They are support assist classes.
Who can survive a crit from a Drac Bow on a hawk eye, Tanks and Destroyers with +CON setup. Who can hurt the archer the most, probally the tank. Lets see how good he is when the tank roots him, and 2 more of his buddies kill him before he has a chance.
Like I said before! GET OVER IT!
And yes, I am a lvl 7x Spellsinger, and yes...I try to stay away from daggers and archers or drop them first.
Im to lazy to read everything, but everyone has to realize that pvp will never be totally fair... Im sorry but that is too hard to do. If you tried playing a dagger during C3 and C4, it wasnt fun business. Nukers and Archers were king, and are still amazing. Stop complaining about daggers, we just go done moaning about nukers... give it a rest.
my EE gets 1 shot non stop :(
not like i can say oh low hp return! im from full cp/hp to no hp, NO class should get a 1 shot skill
Yeah a 1 shot skill is a nono. But classes that can 1 shot on a single attack is ok. Until an archer can't just 1 shot me, I'll say daggers are overpowered, because to 1 shot you they probably have deathwhisper and dofire anyways.
Ummm daggers aren't overpowered, as a tyrant I beat them fvery easy without difficulty. I mean i beat a lvl 78 GH that was in drac armor and he had full dances and songs, I only had clan hall buffs and nightmare light and no SA on my weapon. Killed the guy with 5k hp to spare. And I even beat like 2 daggers at once, although I had songs and prophet buffs it dont matter.
Everyone whines about backstab, dudes get a hold of yourself. Backstab is good but other classes can do more dmg and don't even have to get in melee range to do it. Daggers in terms of constitution and pdef are weak as hell. Personally my skills crit al the time, force blaster and raging force, along with aoe's all crit a bunch of times from 600 range.
First and foremost let me say something...... lvl78 tyrant/destroyer way more dangerous then daggers. WHY? Because of zealot+bison, or zealot+hawk, and for destroyers zealot+frenzy. NO ONE getting with that dps NO ONE. I don't want to hear it, just let it be. Ohh wow a dagger can do 3k dmg with bs.... how about a destroyer hiting you for 5k dmg each swing at like 900+ atkspd with full stacked buffs? Or what about a tyrant hitting you for 2500 each per fist at like 1300 atkspd. And yes these can be used in mass pvp no sweat. Conversion weapon and activate at a given point and everyone dies.
So stop bashing daggers there are a lot of things in this game that is crazy and rediculous in terms of dps. All daggers got is bs really, the 1 shot instant kill was suppose to have been removed, but it wasnt, although the crap is rare. ALTHOUGH there is a way that a TH can do it all the time, but thats a secret.
Anyways in terms of dmg, AW way more powerful then a th by a long shot.
try being a Gladiator...Next to no mdef, next to no run speed, I have 3k+ cp at my lvl and thats gone before I can charge up to 7 charges from mages so having alot of cp dosent mean much. pretty good dmg on skills (only used at melee range, or 600 range for aoe/sonic blaster) takes forever to charge up, have stun skill thats only used with blunts, easily entangled, rooted, bluffed, feared, slept....BUT I still hold my own in pvp, in my 75 lvls, ive lost more in pvp to "friendly fire" than I have to enemies, so quit your complaining and play your char, or reroll, it does no good to complain about the next "overpowerd" class, since prolly 40-50% of the players end up rerolling to that class so they can "own" people.
try being a Gladiator...Next to no mdef, next to no run speed, I have 3k+ cp at my lvl and thats gone before I can charge up to 7 charges from mages so having alot of cp dosent mean much. pretty good dmg on skills (only used at melee range, or 600 range for aoe/sonic blaster) takes forever to charge up, have stun skill thats only used with blunts, easily entangled, rooted, bluffed, feared, slept....BUT I still hold my own in pvp, in my 75 lvls, ive lost more in pvp to "friendly fire" than I have to enemies, so quit your complaining and play your char, or reroll, it does no good to complain about the next "overpowerd" class, since prolly 40-50% of the players end up rerolling to that class so they can "own" people.
it does no good to complain about the next "overpowerd" class, since prolly 40-50% of the players end up rebotting to that class so they can "own" people.
Listen, healers are meant for healing, not killing. IF you want to actually kill stuff, pick something else. The only damage a healer/buffer can do is to use a debuff type spell or mana burn spells. If you don't like it, pick a more leathal class. A class with buffs, and heals should not also be lethal.
So a dagger can one shot you in the back as a nuker, or a Hawk Eye can one shot crit you. I know, happened to me many times. But being a nuker you can also unleash huge amounts of damage. Work as a team, be extra cautious around classes that can "one shot" you and you will do fine.
Dagger has to get to you, you are a nuker. Keep your distance. Kill him before he gets there. Who ever attacks first, always has an advantage. A nuker attacking first can keep his range, a dagger attacking first closes that range.
Every class shouldn't be just as powerful against everything else, because if that was so...there would be NO POINT for classes. Every class has their place, if you don't like it, change your class.
To comment on BD. Yes they have heavy armor, but no heavy armor masteries after they become a BD. They are support assist classes.
Who can survive a crit from a Drac Bow on a hawk eye, Tanks and Destroyers with +CON setup. Who can hurt the archer the most, probally the tank. Lets see how good he is when the tank roots him, and 2 more of his buddies kill him before he has a chance.
Like I said before! GET OVER IT!
And yes, I am a lvl 7x Spellsinger, and yes...I try to stay away from daggers and archers or drop them first.
Thing is though - ability to kill or not - no buffed healer can outheal any buffed DD class on a single target, and that's a problem with game balance right there - as are one-shots, since they remove the need for healers.
As long as the class you two-shot can two-shot you back...it's at least balanced. Daggers however 2-shot...when they're lucky. So does a nuker if one of his crit.
I'm talking about fun. PvP with available buffs at maybe level 40 - and although you'll have a skewed balance because everyone doesn't have their skillsets yet, it's still a lot more fun, just as far as pace is concerned - healers get to heal, melees get to close the gap, etc.
I'm talking about fun. PvP with available buffs at maybe level 40 - and although you'll have a skewed balance because everyone doesn't have their skillsets yet, it's still a lot more fun, just as far as pace is concerned - healers get to heal, melees get to close the gap, etc.
Yes, it is pretty stupid when PvP means "bring more ranged attackers", and healers are only there to give a 90% res when the pvp is over.
well a dagger that had full buffs bd dances/song of wind TH hit dash and was on me before i even got a chance to shoot an arrow. Hit me with bluff and backstab me for 5900 but i still had full cp :(
As an archer i didnt even have a chance to shoot 1 arrow against someone with close to 300 run speed so please tell me how the 900 range helps when they can close on you before you can shoot them? You cannot kite a TH so please shut up with the 900 range. I would have to crit at least 2 times to kill a th.
This thread is not for when you "Kite" "Root" "900Range" "Stun" a TH. Merely Real World PvP - Ganks. Or if Dagger wants First Strike. On a side note i've been red twice now on attacks going straight for HP instead of hitting CP first.
I dont belive everyone is complaining about daggers now..sure, I knew it would come..but.. I still dont think daggers are the best pvpers, archers/nukers still are. usualy whn a nuker hits me the first time, im never able to get to him befor im dead. daggers are still 3hits for a nuker. yes, if a dagger closes in and gets hit BS off, its most likely over, but we ahve to get there first!
and all classes are not suposed to be blanced vs eachother! some classes are good vs other classes.daggers are awesome vs nukers, and good vs archers. but what about tanks? they laugh at us!
just remove the go through cp skills and then its balance its only class in the game that disregards cp which is a huge thing. Takes no skill to hit a skill and woot game over. It similar to the power of vortexs in c4 i know they brought the power down in c5 a little. An archer has no sure attack that is guarenteed to do a lot of damage we have to land a hit and crit on it to increase our chances we need to have 20 buffs. Double shot cannot do 5k damage to someone its a pretty useless skill unless other person is ue u never will use it.
So you have to crit to hit for heavy damage? Dagger specials have to land, and daggers have to be within range to use them. Start a buffed 1v1 against a dagger at 900 range and if you dont win you should reroll. Then start the same PVP with the dagger right behind you. If he doesnt win he should reroll. I think its fairly balanced. Seems that if you let a dagger get close to you as a ranged DD you should be toast. Tyrants own daggers, as do tanks. Even a gladi with the right setup can spam skills and kill a dagger. Anyone who gets the jump on a dagger can kill him (with the exceptions of perhaps some support and healers and warlords) but if the dagger gets a jump on you you should go down hard and fast. Thats kind of the point.
TH can close 900 range before u can get a 2nd shot off so what are you talking about.
Without song of wind i got 192 run speed a th with dash 2 has 240 something run speed..... how you kite that stupid?
Sorry maybe when you level a little you realize what end game pvp is like, sure if it was 50 something a dagger was 50 something archer i should win but a 75 th vs 75 archer.... th will likely win. PS.... you do realize you have to turn your back to a dagger to kite them right?
Lol emo much? My sig is old, I'll update later. I am 67.
TH can close 900 range before u can get a 2nd shot off so what are you talking about.
Only if you gimp the hell out of your attack speed and use a "Very Slow" bow. Try again chief.
Without song of wind i got 192 run speed a th with dash 2 has 240 something run speed..... how you kite that stupid?
I will admit, dash is great. For 15 seconds no one can kite you and thats just super. After those 15 seconds are done tho anyone can. Have you perchance heard of stunshot? Lands well on low Con daggers.
PS.... you do realize you have to turn your back to a dagger to kite them right?
And you do realize that even if you do the special has a chance not to land right? How much damage do you do on a full buffed critical? Your DPS is as high or higher than a dagger using specials and you can do it from 900 range. Stop crying.
TH can close 900 range before u can get a 2nd shot off so what are you talking about.
Without song of wind i got 192 run speed a th with dash 2 has 240 something run speed..... how you kite that stupid?
Sorry maybe when you level a little you realize what end game pvp is like, sure if it was 50 something a dagger was 50 something archer i should win but a 75 th vs 75 archer.... th will likely win. PS.... you do realize you have to turn your back to a dagger to kite them right?
They might be able to close that, sure in 1v1. But think about sieges. These are all ranged fests. If a dagger tries to rush you and kill you, a couple things will happen. He may kill you, but he won't kill anyone else. I like to think of these alot like World War 1. Theres a no mans land. Anyone who ventures into it will get injured and probably won't be able to get medical treatment if they are still alive.
You can say the same about Lineage 2 sieges. Alot of times many groups won't want to make the attack, because it means losing coordination, and it's usually never perfect. So they snipe each other off with arrows and nukes. If melee try to rush they can't get rezes because they are far in enemy territory, and they won't kill too many before they are realized.
Also about Terrain. Theres alot more of this in the high level areas. A spot many people know is the port into Wall of Argos. Theres a hill camping the spawn point. If you are camping Wall of Argos and are a ranged class, you are standing there if you are smart. Melee can't take advantage of this. Say a melee ported in, he would need to run around the hill and up it to even damage the ranged class. It's not a straight line. Even another ranged class might need to do the same. Since the guy on the hill gets to choose when or if he backs off the side and gets behind the top of the hill. He chooses when to engage is what it is. As for rivers, range advantage again, castle walls? Again.
As for me, I think a melee should win 90% of the time in a open space encounter even at 900 range. To balance this I might suggest to add more terrain changes on siege grounds.
well a dagger that had full buffs bd dances/song of wind TH hit dash and was on me before i even got a chance to shoot an arrow. Hit me with bluff and backstab me for 5900 but i still had full cp :(
As an archer i didnt even have a chance to shoot 1 arrow against someone with close to 300 run speed so please tell me how the 900 range helps when they can close on you before you can shoot them? You cannot kite a TH so please shut up with the 900 range. I would have to crit at least 2 times to kill a th.
Yeah, a TH with sws and bd? A PR with SWS/BD will easily shoot twice before he runs 900 at 300 runspeed. Odds on critting look pretty good with hunter and even better with draconic. How on earth did you not shoot him before he got to you? I 1v1 a TH in arena and shoot him with my bow on my tank before equipping shield...and my attack speed with a bow is something like half yours...oh yeah and 600 range.
Umm daggers are easy to beat. I dont see the big deal. In fact I would say for me they were harder in c4 since bluff was like 100% turn away and drop target and used to stun like crazy. Anyways all they have is bs, i kill many of them before they can even make it to my range, since my nukes crit like all the time. they make it into my range i kil them quickly without difficulty. Tyrants/glads/destroyers still own daggers, worst than before imo with the bluff nerf.
But in olympaid I dunno if they going to keep daggers that way. I mean they can basically manage to 2 sho a mage. I doubt that it will continue.
daggers have been nerfed a long time. we had what? 1% chanse vs an archer? or even less. now its 50/50, or maybe a bit more for the dagger, and now they start to cry.
yes, we can bypass cp. nukers and archers have ranged attack. if you want to bypass cp, give uss dagger trowingdaggers, and its all fine. why not just make all classes exactly the same so no one can whine about it? or remove them all?
you dont need to make them the same. there is balance w/o removing every class. i have seen it in many games where there are multiple classes and its all balanced. L2 is the worse when it comes to balance.
Its the buffs, olympiad is surprisingly balanced... but the classes that can buff and/or summon stand out there as well. Archers are the deadliest classes in full buffed game, but in olympiad they are next to useless.
Its the buffs, olympiad is surprisingly balanced... but the classes that can buff and/or summon stand out there as well. Archers are the deadliest classes in full buffed game, but in olympiad they are next to useless.
I am a prelude dagger, c5 is my satisfaction of the dagger class. C2 was overpowered, c3 very underpowered, c4 extremely underpowered.
If i am at a range from an archer or mage around my level, i deserve to die MOST of the time, in which case this is happening.
If i am at close range, i deserve the kill over a mage and archer MOST of the time, in which case is happening.
Tanks and heavy armor classes take a large amount of MP to kill, which makes it extremely unefficent to go after them in pvp... but there is a possibility to kill them.
Of course... critting on a backstab or lethal blow(hitting a vital organ for example), makes the dagger much more realistic in its role.. in that the assasination success is sometimes just by chance.
Any class has a way to root/slow an archer or have way too much defense against it. Daggers have dash, blinding blow, nukers have shields and nukes, tanks have roots and hamstrings and lol an archer barely scratches them. I'm not sure about prophet though but archers don't seem to win much in olympiad anymore. But they are overpowered if they recieve buffs.
I read the first 5 threads of this but skipped till now...If I restate this point then oh well.
All you ppl shouting and complaining about a 1-shot dagger skill, GET OVER IT. ARCHERS have that TOO. Or are you all forgetting lethal shot? Archers can crit with skills too I hear. Because they used nearly the same rationale in boosts for daggers and archers ppl complain that daggers got a boost?
And yes, I know someone who was taken out by an archer in pvp in one shot ... thanks to Lethal Shot ...
And daggers *can* one-hit, they *can* do as much damage as a nuker but omg did ppl realize that the mp burns fast? Backstab eats up like 123mp and with a total of 1600 or so, think how many times that comes into play in mass pvp when used along with other skills.
Daggers can be used right, but work most effectively in a group. They can make or break in mass pvp, or group-style gank squads. TH have the advantage here with more cp/hp. Try an AW and see how long they last with 4-hits to death by a nuker.
Right here I'd complain about CP. An SH with less Con than an AW and at a lower level *has more CP than the dagger does*. Dagger is a close-up melee and the other is a range nuker ... something wrong here ...
I agree with others that there is little reason for this thread, its not overpowered, it just has power now which it was lacking in c3/c4. Other classes still can devestate much better, more effectively, more efficiently, and for a longer period of time.
And at least Bishops have a potentially devestating effect on daggers if they use mana burn ... with so little mana to start with, they can be rendered useless quite easily.
the thing is nowadays : dont let a dagger get close to u.
Ranged attacks (sorc,archer,) will always win a leather armor close combat fighter,with no m def no cp.thank u.
the thing is nowadays : dont let a dagger get close to u.
Ranged attacks (sorc,archer,) will always win a leather armor close combat fighter,with no m def no cp.thank u.
p.s im a th.
As a PP & Nuker class, I hate the backstab skill only because I don't think it should skip ver your CP, I understand, with 1 hit, takes all your CP, by it should by pass it. However If a dagger gets up close to my nuker & I haven't killed it by that time, then I deserve to die, because I'm a range class, who should kill the targets before hey get one hit on me. If I get hit in my robes, then I'm gone & thats exactly how it should be :)
If your a nuker class complaining about getting 1-shot by a dagger, it's your own fault, if you can't kill them beofre they reach you, expect the worst. :p
A dagger is an assassin. It deserves this skill. It only works if you turn your back and it's not for sure. It's a good skill and if it doesn't kill you outright theres no point since you must go through CP for all other attacks.
The go through CP skill is close range and back positional only.. gosh.. try facing the dagger and you will never have to worry about it eh? Stop playing chicken little and running away.. eg.. turning your back on the dagger. It comes down to tactics and paying attention. If you cant be bothered to do that? Then you have no right to complain. It's not overpowered at all.
And talking about fully buffed characters bieng overpowered is a different story.. Buffs are not calculated into that balance, and many types of characters get overpowered with buffs. If you realy want to fix the issue.. NERF BUFFS.
Oh nothing like Darkmotion if your infering to him.
I just got really tired and decided to tell people to stop crying about SE's, really all classes in general.
Honestly I'm tempted to start HE's Are Overpowered, next.
If root was added to DA's, but summon skills wern't changed I might hav made DA's Are Overpowered. Alot of times you play your class you'll know if your skill is overpowered or not. It doesn't make it any less fun to use. It's great look at sleep. It was overpowered I knew that the minute I got it. I used it all the time it was so great. Now thats it gone I still play just the same with a few changes here and there, but I still get by on my caster. If you have a overpowered skill on your class use it alot once the math gets checked it's going to get nerfed. Just be greatful Lineage2 isn't a game that gets patched all that often.
Seriously No one cares about SE's honestly make a poll. Not just SE's don't cry. No one likes healers in general. Damage classes get attention.
Only game were a healer might get attention is a shaman in warcraft.
Coming from playing along line of mmo games.
AO/WOW/L2/EQ/EQ2/FFXI/Planetside/RYL/RYL2/DAOC/UO/SWG/RO/DnD/ShatterdGalaxies/MxO/EQOA/Froniters/PhantasyStar Online/Fighting Legends Online/AC2/Rose/Earth N Beyond/guild wars and a few others.
Granted not all of these games have the same setup as L2. I've never seen more specialized healing roles. L2 each has own special buffs albit some are shared. Healers never get huge buffs or nerfs. C5 did not kill SE's.
Everyone must believe they just make changes without testing them. Obviously if something was overpowered it gets nerfed. My DA 6x was killing 7x people with panther out buffed. Yes Summon Dmg was high. Do I like the change of course not but I got to enjoy it for 2 years. Thats plenty. I made a tank because of reading shield stun as a 8 second not inturept stun back in prelude. Just reading that I saw it as one of the most overpowered skills in the game. Coming from other games. I aready knew what I could do in 8 seconds of stun. Of course that got nerfed in the next patch.
Honestly though TH's might be overpowered who knows. I'm not running the numbers i'm sure ncsoft is. If it's overpowered compared to other DD classes. I'm sure they will get nerfed. Although i'm a bigger fan of other classes just getting a increase. I think a nerf might be in order for l2 only because so much dps aready in the game. Games like warcraft are scaling down from to DPS to adding more armor and hp because again DPS was scaling way to fast. It did the same in Lineage. DPS is scaled way way past your chance of survivial.
Look at yourself before you call someone an attention [censored] i've made 80 posts over like 2 years. It just happend that one of them got alot of attention.
The go through CP skill is close range and back positional only.. gosh.. try facing the dagger and you will never have to worry about it eh? Stop playing chicken little and running away.. eg.. turning your back on the dagger. It comes down to tactics and paying attention. If you cant be bothered to do that? Then you have no right to complain. It's not overpowered at all.
And talking about fully buffed characters bieng overpowered is a different story.. Buffs are not calculated into that balance, and many types of characters get overpowered with buffs. If you realy want to fix the issue.. NERF BUFFS.
your reallly dumb arent you? If you kite you have to turn your back if you dont kite they kill you...... so what are you thinking with your comment?
Daggers are fine. They have high damage but they also have limits, they go out of mp fast, need to be at close range and behind the target. After 3-4 people a dagger is out of mp and can't do anything.
Compare that to a 76+ archer with drac bow and CoV, they crit people for 4k dmg, crit almost every shot, have alot more hp/cp (well atleast HE and SR), and they have mp enough to kill over 30 people.
Look at it this way, as someone else stated, daggers are assassins. Look at your cp as armor, they are quite talented at slipping the dagger in teh right spot betweena rmor joints or something ^^.
Noone will ever be happy with the balance in this game. Get over it. People whine about archers and nuker being overpowered, but they can be killed. Daggers ar ethe same way now. They catch u from behind, they have a **** good chance o fkilling you. Same way if a nuker starts a fight from far away, you will probably die. Same way if a tank starts up close, and chain stuns you. Every character has some advantages, problem is people die to a class and decide they cant be beaten. Just because you havent odne it doesnt mean it cant be done. I dropped a 75 SH in arena other day as a BD. Im not "supposed" to be able to do that. Granted, the SH never did anything except sit in same spot and use hurricaine while I ran up and slaughtered her. I won because "sleep" got nerfed. Im sure I will get flamed for it, but frankly, there really isnt that big of a problem if they get to you and drop you from behind. As peopel keep pointing out, game isnt about 1v1 pvp. After a few specials, dont daggers generally run out of mana leaving htem open to get wrecked in a few hits...?
your reallly dumb arent you? If you kite you have to turn your back if you dont kite they kill you...... so what are you thinking with your comment?
Same could be said of you, because do you know what happens if you face a dagger? ----% chance of landing a skill, of doing damage, and can't use backstab. Bluff+backstab is another thing altogether tho, but it is a *high lvl* skill.
Only reason you'll get owned by a dagger is if your dumb enough to ignore it in pvp as a non-factor.
I've seen it done, I've done it.
And you don't kite a dagger ... that's asking to die ...
Just remove that cp bypass thing that is too overpowered, there is nothing to discuss about it.
Most imba thing in this game is crit rate, archers and daggers cant do [censored] with out buffs but with buffs they have too high crit rate. Lower that and give them more power without buffs.
Or try week with setups where nukers crit rate is boosted like 20X.
I would love to see that whine uuh mages crit too often and make 10k dmg to me with every 3 hits ;(.That would be just insane eh ? so why make some class 1 shot another ?
Balance this game so that everyone have somekind of chance doing stuff. If your a SE I dont think that it should mean you can only recharge and buff ppl.
Thats an argument that drives me nuts.
"I want buffers to do more than buff"
They can root and erase in SE case. They are freaking buffers for christ' sakes. Thats what they do.
Yes crit rates are interesting as it can affect alot of aspects of gameplay. But saying daggers should have to go through cp cause other classes do is stupid, IMO
Daggers have a chance of nailing you hard from behind up close. If you are facing them, their specials dont land that often, and they can be killed. I took out a higher levle dagger 1v1 facing him. he dropped me pretty ahrd form behind when i was otherwise busy. thats what their classes do. I dont see a problem with it.
Yeah, ok daggers are overpowered because you say it is so. I guess people didn't get the memo that daggers are assassins and might have special attributes like going through CP. I guess your complaining cause you spam CP pots lol.
Why dont we have an archer skill to go through cp?
If you want to go through history archer were master marksmen and could shoot an arrow through weak places in people's armour so by your reasoning archers shouldnt have to go through cp either since WE ARE ASSASSINS. Please think before you post.
Because in this game a regular archers hits for hundreds more than a regular dagger hits for? Or because you crit all the time from 900 range and drop targets before you have to get close to them? or because you can stun them, 2x shot them and have them dead without them doing all these things. they took a class that wasnt all that great at pvp, gave them a skill that helps and people are upset cause they die. oh no, an archer and a nuker can get 1 shotted, the horror the horror.
imagine how the rest of the classes felt when they bashed on your classes in the forums
And besides, a true asassin likes to feel his target dying in his hands, archers dont have that luxury :p
You killed a buffer class. point being? It wouldnt kill a hgiher level melee character. My Necro could paralyze a level 65 char at 48. It happens, see how many times in a row you can 1 shot someone like that. I dont think its overpowered, I think people whine to much. And you are missing the point, a dagger one hits. They have to be behind and next to someone for that to happen. Archers and Nukers dont. Have your proph root them as they run at you, see how useful the dagger is then
your really stupid you know that? prophet have more hp then most except heavy armour classes.
i did 4481 damage and the prophet hit the ground. Why should someone in cgrade do 4481 damage to someone in agrade.... its a broken skill.
BTW archers dont get lethal shot to 77 daggers get 2 new daggers skills lethal blow and bluff both better then any skill archer gets 76+
Archers get crap for skills 76+ hamstring shot is only halfway decent skill but they nerfed that in c5 so its pretty useless now too.
Id like to see a level 40 archer or nuker do 4k+ damage to someone in agrade show it to me please.
Lethal shot is a level 77 skill backstab is a level 40..... something is wrong with that. BTW daggers crit too much on their skills even more then they do on the PTS 9/10 ive been attacked by daggers they have crit on their skills.
Im not all that stupid, I think you are just ****** that your archer isnt the top dog anymore. You gusy ahve done insane damage forever, and was fine because you could 3 shot someone and had ot go through cp. Now a class can do that damage in a hit avoiding cp so its broken. after all, if you can tdo it, why should anyone else
**** right daggers need to be good unbuffed. Cause more often than not daggers don't get the luxuries of other parties - most sws/bd/etc get taken to archer / nuker groups *first* and the other melees (daggers included) get the dregs.
And might I point out that to go unbuffed and try a backstab, it takes about 8% of a dagger's total MP? For an archer it would take 20 mp or so to do the same damage at range and eliminate a target. For a nuker, it would take less than 6% of the total MP to do that at 900 range.
Overpowered dagger would mean doing that damage with a throwing dagger at range.
It costs *alot* to do this kind of damage for a dagger, and makes it only viable for a short duration in pvp. If you don't kite but move ever so slightly u could easily get the dagger to waste 8% of his/her mp.
In most circumstances, a dagger wouldn't own you unless you were blind/distracted. A dagger has basically 0 chance if the initial pvp starts at 900 range with a same lvl nuker (archers its based on luck/buffs). A TH has the advantage of dash. Other daggers like a PW or AW don't have that benefit.
Maybe what you should complain about is the Dash reuse time, have it converted to a blinding blow like skill for TH.
Again, if a match starts at range with no buffs or full buffs, a dagger most likely will lose. A quick vortex+2 hits could wipe the dagger off the map so easily.
The only reason daggers would be overpowered is if people don't acknowledge that they can actually kill things now (unlike c3,c4 etc).
If Ncsoft created a mage skill that bypassed CP, took nearly 10% of their mp for a skill, and *only* worked from the right side, I doubt i'd complain.
hmm i personaly find if a dagger dude manage to get close to a range guy like a wizard,archer they sud die why?
well to get close enough is already with 1 leg in the grave
"guess people didn't get the memo that daggers are assassins and might have special attributes like going through CP." thats just bull (you know what).
How many class is trained in art of killing in this game ? why dont orcs get bypass cp skills ? Or why dont mages get instant kill skill ? they have "trained" lot to master magic skills that are more powerful that just some guy hitting with dagger.
I think its wrong to talk that TH are overpowered, they just have skill that is imbalanced.
Why did sps/sorcs get nerf in they aure flare ? **** hmm let me see why would something like that happen, maybe because you could flare everyone into oblivion in 2 secs.
I think that if this kind of skill exist it should be *very* rare that it bypasses cp like 1/15 or even less.
Hey sly, stop calling people stupid. "You really are stupid" does not apply to people who post well thought out critiques of your opinion. Just because people do not agree with you does not make them wrong. Full buffed archer with drac bow (Focus) is the most broken class in the game. Unbuffed, a nuker is the most powerful. If a ranged DD class allows a dagger (whose specials are % based landrate and damage) to close to melee range AND get behind them, they deserve to drop for being careless. If you spot a dagger at 900 range Stun him! Or just 1-2 shot if he isnt UE'd. Daggers have extremely low hp/cp, especially if they get -con tats. Daggers also gimp themselves if they use stun resistant armor, whereas you get a + to patk (as if you needed it lol). Again, stop crying because your melee counterpart can beat you every now and then.
unbuffed nuker fails most of the magical attacks most dangerous unbuffed is a dagger now or maybe tryant.
Daggers dont - con they - str since str has nothing to do with the damage their skills do. +con +dex is what most daggers go.
being a fully buffed archer with a draconic focus is a lot harder to pull off then an unbuffed dagger at 40 with a dark screamer. Play the % its an unbalanced skill and needs to be removed. You keep talking about level 76 Archers fully buffed but a level 40 dagger can kill people 20 - 30 levels higher then them with a crit on their skill.
Stop comparing apples to oranges compare a level 40 archer then talk.
No they cant. There was a red TH outside of Dion other day. I chased him down an dkilled him, as melee. My cp barel ymoved. granted, I didnt turn around and let him whack at my back. Unbuffed nukers do NOT fail attacks against people their own level, it sonyl much higher levels. You want ot talk about broken, a dagger misses that attack, he is screwed, because you should be smart enough to turn around and kill him. My necro will just paralyze people 20 levels higher, and then kil him with his sword, because he can. Course if that happens and I get dropped by a backstab I wont complain. It's seriosuly cracking me up to see a 70+ PR complaining he can get killed. Unbuffed nukers, will kill a dagger btw, its possible to play unbuffed. Most people just arent used to it anymore. You have ot LET a dagger get close, they can kill yo up close, so dont let him. What is wrong with that concept. He has 1 chance ot kill you, if he fails, you win. My BD can get close, and take more hits to drop you. But if hes in your face, he has one hell of alot better chance of killing you. Is it unbalanced if I walk up to you and sting you, then crit the hell out of oyu befor eoyu can move and you die? Is it any different if it takes me 20 hits, whereas the Dagger only has 1 chance?
Im done arguing with you. I disagree because I think they deserve some sort of ability in pvp beside shand to hand fighing since they rarely ever evade when I attack them. If they kill me from behind, so be it, Im not going to whine about it. I think I think I'll just make a mental note to try and not let myself get backstabbed when I am pvping one of them.
If a ranged DD class allows a dagger (whose specials are % based landrate and damage) to close to melee range AND get behind them, they deserve to drop for being careless.
Does this mean that if dagger lets mage or archer to get 900 to him, he deserve to die ? well dident think so too, so thats a poor argument.
Just lower the dmg or landrate and remove that rediculous bypass cp thing. And fix that crit rate/normal dmg ration. So that daggers and archer do moderate dmg without buffs, and with buffs do better dmg and crit sometimes. not like now when +70 dmg does 160dmg to +60 mage and has to depend on his skills/crit too much.
hmm i fighted a Dagger dude at DMT we both where same level +- i did not ask him i whas a SPS i killed him 3 times he killed me 1 time it means on open field most of them dont stand a change but odds get a lot better in Necro's/Cata or places with a lot of tree's/rocks i say eye's open or die witch i find good
i realy dont like that Archers,Mages are the head light in PVP even if i am my self a mage what's the use or fun of the other class's then???? so when a dagger dude get close to a range class's i find that logical i die sinds i made a mistake getting him close to me so stop crying about dagger dudes
Not unless they are fighting v. people 2 grades above them.
Daggers dont - con they - str since str has nothing to do with the damage their skills do. +con +dex is what most daggers go.
Er...if you say so. Skills use a dagger's MP which comes from a very limited pool. If you want to do damage from attacks and normal criticals you kinda need that str.
being a fully buffed archer with a draconic focus is a lot harder to pull off then an unbuffed dagger at 40 with a dark screamer.
Yes, an unbuffed lvl 40 dagger can waste 7x tanks in 2 hits. What game are you playing ffs?
a level 40 dagger can kill people 20 - 30 levels higher then them with a crit on their skill.
You have seen a level 40 dagger kill a level 60-70 toon (any class) with a critical backstab? Was the A grade naked? As we are so fond of saying, SS or it didnt happen. Again, what game are you playing?
Stop comparing apples to oranges compare a level 40 archer then talk.
I believe it was you who said that I was a lowbie and had no idea about endgame PVP. Who is talking about low lvl PVP now? Oh wait, you failed to argue the case for end game PVP so you are moving on to low levels? Sure, I'll bite. A lvl 40 archer still has fairly high damage specials AND the range advantage and a stun attack. Daggers still have low CP/HP and pdef. I would say if you are a lvl 40 archer and the fight looks like this
At 900 range: you can stun, you can hit, you can miss, or you can crit.
If you crit, you will probably win the fight. If you hit, that is good. If you miss, that is bad. If stun lands you win the fight.
Second shot: You can crit, you can hit, or you can miss.
If you crit, you will probably win. If you hit for the second time you will probably win. If you hit for the first time you have a chance. If you miss for the second time you might be in trouble.
If the dagger survives to melee range: You can kite or you can keep shooting.
If you kite, the dagger will use BS. When he does this, one of four things will happen.
1. it will miss (archer lives)
2. it will land (archer probably lives if he is wearing armor)
3. it will land AND crit (archer dies)
4. the dagger will get the "Target is too far" message (archer lives)
If, instead of kiting, you keep shooting, then the dagger must use his less powerful special that has a lower landrate and does not bypass CP. You will probably win unless you get a string of misses or the dagger gets a string of (buffed) crits.
Overall, I'd say a lvl 40 dagger is pretty much on par with a lvl 40 archer. Any other thoughts?
We play a game where PVP is all about range. Have you been in a siege or gank-fest? There is a gap in between the 2 forces of approx 900 range and the 2 forces shoot at each other. Any melee that runs into the gap gets focus fired by the other side and drops.
yeah but do you know you can pvp even without being in siege or gank-fest ? and your not always in full 9 ppl partys with full buffs and stuff. maybe your exping and dagger comes to pick fight and one shots you hmm...
Just admit to yourself that daggers skill/critrate/normaldmg is imba. And lets hope they fix that.
no Daggers are good now
bypass CP is not a real big thing sinds only 1 skill bypass it
and btw range is the most inportent tatical concept in this game even a dwarf can destroy a mage but you know the probleem is range :)
no Daggers are good now
bypass CP is not a real big thing sinds only 1 skill bypass it
and btw range is the most inportent tatical concept in this game even a dwarf can destroy a mage but you know the probleem is range :)
Why having CP when even 1 skill bypasses it? No this is a big issue.
Well i can tell you =D
CP whas never intented for PvP
i readed somewhere in Library why they given all class's CP but normaaly it whas never ment to exist
CP was the single biggest nerf in C2 beyond pdef effecting crit damage. Made every class much much harder for us to kill which means more time on target, much less mana efficency, a higher likelyhood of getting targeted, and resulted mainly in getting dead.
C5 made daggers the anti CP class. 4/5 of our stabs can 1 shot CP. 1 stab directly goes to HP. We're better now because of it. Still not the most powerful but certainly not LOLdagger anymore. Live (or die) with it.
no Daggers are good now
bypass CP is not a real big thing sinds only 1 skill bypass it
and btw range is the most inportent tatical concept in this game even a dwarf can destroy a mage but you know the probleem is range :)
No they are not good now, or do you say me that your trained assasin that can do only low dmg without skills good ?
No there is something wrong and I am not saying that daggers has to be bad. I have played one my self.
But keyword is balancing and giving then one skill that rocks is not that, its just delay inevitable that is nerfing.
And that is never good think. No one likes to have some skill nerfed from theyr char. even if its imba.
why not adjust it still, keeping it still usefull (something they dident do with sleep) and balance other things in daggers.
Almost all of you people must never pvp for a spot, do you trash talk from 900 range? How does the archer get the dagger to flag for a real pvp? How does the nuker do the same?
"We can pvp Mr. TH, just flag and take ten steps west, then we turn and fight."
Conditions for this "1 shot"
1. Class must be wearing Light Armor or Robes (Heavy Armor classes can't be 1 shot unless extremely low level).
2. Player must have his back turned.
3. Dagger must do an uncommon crit on a landed Backstab.
Note: If player isn't 1 shot by Backstab, the dagger will go through CP anyway with his next couple blows so in reality it doesn't really matter.
If you don't want to lose your CP, don't kite. Dagger skills land less from the front anyway. My first skill to use is Blinding Blow unless he's showing his back, so you probably won't be better off kiting.
C2 dagger was overpowered. P.Def barely mattered. You could pvp very efficiently with even 5 P.Atk dagger. The skill that was broken was Vicious Stance, ask any Gladiator if they used their level 9 Mortal Blow with Vicious Stance in pvp with a NG dagger in C2. If MM SA was reintroduced as an SA for a new dagger down the line it wouldn't be overpowered, for the real problem was buff stacking land rate. I was better off with a Kris Focus in C2 and put down my CD with MM for it halfway through the Chronicle. Might Mortal became more important when it was taken out... in C3.
hmm i most say i not PvP a lot still i know that at war people are flaged :) so range still going to apply or do you think so guy just turn around the conor and gonna stab you ????
i dont mind if someone stab me and PK me after all he is red
so i dont follow your logic what you trying to say :)
I am saying you have a choice against daggers in non war situations, pk or most likely die. I entirely mind if someone pk's me.
I don't support the art of brezzing as even after 2+ years of playing, I just can't seem to swallow paying 1m for them, and prefer to not wait around for a bishop to come rez me.
The situations you are focussed on are warred or sieges or the stupid arena. Not every pvp zone is in a nice flat field full of roses waiting for the evil th to come grief you. Bot protectors are mainly classed as th's, and most often you fight them in catacmobs. Tell me how your ranged skills affect the pvp situation then?
hmm if a guy PK your whatever level he is suprime higher then you yeah you loss 4% xp's but what do he lost :P
sure in a remote area he might get away with it but i dont think in a place with many people he survive long and he gonna die 2 times
Conditions for this "1 shot"
1. Class must be wearing Light Armor or Robes (Heavy Armor classes can't be 1 shot unless extremely low level).
2. Player must have his back turned.
3. Dagger must do an uncommon crit on a landed Backstab.
Note: If player isn't 1 shot by Backstab, the dagger will go through CP anyway with his next couple blows so in reality it doesn't really matter.
If you don't want to lose your CP, don't kite. Dagger skills land less from the front anyway. My first skill to use is Blinding Blow unless he's showing his back, so you probably won't be better off kiting.
C2 dagger was overpowered. P.Def barely mattered. You could pvp very efficiently with even 5 P.Atk dagger. The skill that was broken was Vicious Stance, ask any Gladiator if they used their level 9 Mortal Blow with Vicious Stance in pvp with a NG dagger in C2. If MM SA was reintroduced as an SA for a new dagger down the line it wouldn't be overpowered, for the real problem was buff stacking land rate. I was better off with a Kris Focus in C2 and put down my CD with MM for it halfway through the Chronicle. Might Mortal became more important when it was taken out... in C3.
2 problems backstab can land from any direction, just has a higher landing rate from behind.
2nd Its not a very low crit rate thats part of the problem on the pts it was a lowo crit rate when it was updated on live its very common for a dagger to crit on their skills ask them, ive so far crit 1 time with my doubleshot 1 time in almost a month.... dagger crit easily 1 out 3 skills as ive can tell so far.
Might Mortal SA. I dont reember exactly what it does but daggers loved em ^^
Gave like 60 - 70% chance of Specials landing, lowered to 40% after it was removed.
And no, Backstab doesnt work from Front/Sides, my PW has never landed Backstab from the front or sides (PvP OR PvE), the skill even says u MUST be behind the target.
Dagger hits you for 4000+ Dmg, from behind, theres a LOW chance of going through CP, and they have to be next to you.
69 EE (Me) with Shield buffs, Blocks an Arrow launched by a C-Grade Archer, the Arrow hits for 1000 ish Dmg, through a shield block, from 900 Range. If I remove the shield, I get 3 shotted in 5 seconds. (Haste 2 / Zerk 2 on them, not many ppl PvP unbuffed so dont try that arguement)
2nd Its not a very low crit rate thats part of the problem on the pts it was a lowo crit rate when it was updated on live its very common for a dagger to crit on their skills ask them, ive so far crit 1 time with my doubleshot 1 time in almost a month.... dagger crit easily 1 out 3 skills as ive can tell so far.
hmm, i think Daggers are good now, i mean they sucked bad before lol, when they got nerfed. The only thing that could need a fix is that they ignore cp or wuteva that skill is. That doesn make sense to me. Why did ncsoft implement CP if they are going to let some "special" class' just ignore it anyway.
Anyway, i think Dagger vs Archer is an interesting pvp situation now, 50% chance for both i would say to win/lose a 1vs1. Also depends if stun lands. When stun lands once the dagger is most likely dead, if not Dagger will at least hit Archer 1-2 times, and thats enuff in c5 to kill u.
Ive seen 2 Daggers owning a whole pty some days ago, not arena. That reminds me a lil c2 tho...we will see if ncsoft will fix them or not. I dun care actually.
Ive seen 2 Daggers owning a whole pty some days ago, not arena. That reminds me a lil c2 tho...we will see if ncsoft will fix them or not. I dun care actually.
There are far too many differences in level/buffs/equip/jewels/enchants to make a blanket judgement on an entire class based on one single PvP. In C2 sure, because everywhere you looked daggers were tearing up people far above them.
Personally I find them balanced right now. If you don't get them before they get close you've got a really tough job trying to fend them off.
I am a prelude dagger, c5 is my satisfaction of the dagger class. C2 was overpowered, c3 very underpowered, c4 extremely underpowered.
If i am at a range from an archer or mage around my level, i deserve to die MOST of the time, in which case this is happening.
If i am at close range, i deserve the kill over a mage and archer MOST of the time, in which case is happening.
Tanks and heavy armor classes take a large amount of MP to kill, which makes it extremely unefficent to go after them in pvp... but there is a possibility to kill them.
Of course... critting on a backstab or lethal blow(hitting a vital organ for example), makes the dagger much more realistic in its role.. in that the assasination success is sometimes just by chance.
everyone just seems to think that all pvp starts at 900+ range and if dagger gets close to mage he deserves to die.
So black and white.
From months of wars and sieging since C2, I've yet to see mass pvp where both sides willingly charge at eachother. I've been in deadlocks lasting for near hours where either side just stands at ~1k range and picks off whoever runs at them.
What really baffles me. Is the fact that other classes are complaining that daggers have an overpowered benefit of bypassing CP. When they themselves probably have way more CP than a dagger would. The topic is "Th's are Overpowered". Ok, TH have a higher CP. Try playing an AW. Basically a glass cannon with no effective range.
From practical experience, most on-the-field encounters start at range. Approx distance ~1500 range. Time enough for people to bsoe/prepare/target/equip pvp weapons and 'charge' or standoff. In closed spaces, a dagger can really be effective. Such as if people think to take advantages of halls in a cata or corners ... dagger can make use of the close range. In open field, its a dagger's doom. Most necro's do the "Gloom-DVortex-DS-DS" = their opponent is dead if they're a dmg output class. This is true of many classes. And try an overpowered necro who uses Curse of Doom. Then has time to 3-shot or ignore the melee dagger desperately trying to run away ...
For myself, I know that if a dagger is coming, I'll not run but fire and they normally die. When I ignore the dagger as first target and get a necro/archer/sps/etc first, I get owned by the dagger.
The problem is people seem to have trouble accepting that a dagger is a real threat again. Like an archer. Or a nuker. For a long time they were low cp low hp and low % chance dmg output class = not very useful. They were at great disadvantage and so 'perks' in the game have been used to try and put them back at a competitive level. As a dagger, I don't often get the luxury of buffs. In that state I will get owned by a nuker quickly if they target me first (3-4 hits and dead). Even if the nuker is a number of levels below.
And if your a healing char and complaining about daggers getting behind you, you should be complaining to your group members who should be dealing with the threat.
Oh, and for mass pvp, if you play a dagger class you will die. Die and die many times. And keep trying because one of those times (before their mp runs out) they'll get turned back and take one out before going down again.
Some hp/cp lists with btb6, some common offensive and defensive tattoo setups at level 78.
Lv 78 Ghost Hunter.
default 32 con has 4986 hp and 1477 cp.
+4 str +4 dex -8 con, Draconic set has 3718 hp and 1101 cp.
+4 con +4 dex -8 str, Draconic set has 5293 hp and 1568 cp.
Lv 78 Adventurer.
default 43 con has 5823 hp and 1725 cp.
+4 str +4 dex -8 con, Draconic set has 4312 hp and 1277 cp.
+4 con +4 dex -8 str, Draconic set has 6155 hp and 1823 cp.
Lv 78 Soultaker.
+4 wit +4 int +4 con, DC robes or Arcana has 4449 hp and 1648 cp.
+4 wit +4 int +4 con, DC robes or Arcana, Infinity Rod has 4449 hp and 2472 cp.
Lv 78 Sagittarius.
default 43 con has 6046 hp and 3144 cp.
+4 str +4 dex -8 con, Draconic set has 4490 hp and 2328 cp.
+4 dex or str -4 con, Draconic set has 5066 hp and 2627 cp.
+4 str +4 dex -8 con, Draconic set, Infinity Bow has 4490 hp and 3492 cp.
+4 dex or str -4 con, Draconic set, Infinity Bow has 5066 hp and 3940 cp.
Lv 78 Duelist.
default 43 con has 6800 hp and 4533 cp.
+4 str +4 dex -8 con, Imperial Crusader has 5782 hp and 3558 cp.
+4 con +4 dex -8 str, Imperial Crusader, Health SA has 9968 hp and 5079 cp.
+4 str +4 dex -8 con, Imperial Crusader, Infinity Wings has 7116 hp and 5337 cp.
+5 con +4 dex -9 str, Imperial Crusader, Infinity Wings has 10290 hp and 7876 cp.
I don't really see it being big issue that only backstab with lot of restrictions ignores cp
if you compare dagger cp with other classes. Backstab only works from behind, if you seem to get
backstabed from in front then you have desync issues with server, dagger was actually behind you.
Personally I'd rather have Sagittarius cp on my Adventurer than backstab ignoring cp with bluff being
nerfed to almost useless skill in C5.