What are the different? I've read, in unofficial forum, the blunt have a medium damage more high then sword, but have a critical % lesser then sword. It's true? There are other reason?
Thanks :)
blunt is better for orc,dwarfs
swords well you know
Nope, for orc destroyers it's 2handed sword or a polearm. For tyrants it's a fists.
For dwarf with good buffs it's also pole or [some mele wearpon with better crit rate and focus SA] if they want a damage output.
In this game damage comes mainly crom critical hits - fully buffed, a critical hit does, I believe, around five to six times normal damage - i.e. three complete misses are less of a problem than one missed crit.
Consequently, blunts as weapons sort of suck, with only blunts that have a Focus SA (which pushes them up into no longer 'pitiful' but merely 'poor' crit ranges) being a serious competitor when it's a matter of damage dealt over time.
The main reason now to wear a blunt is to stun with it, and none of the classes that have a blunt stun suffer from weight problems so much that they could not simply take a low grade blunt with them to swap to when stunning. =)
blunt is better for orc,dwarfs
swords well you know
Nope, for orc destroyers it's 2handed sword or a polearm. For tyrants it's a fists.
For dwarf with good buffs it's also pole or [some mele wearpon with better crit rate and focus SA] if they want a damage output.
As a WS, I can somewhat agree with a pole, but I use a Meteor Shower (with focus). Don't forgret, while another weapon may have better crit rate, dwarves get blunt masteries, not sword-blunt masteries., and polearm masteries. The damage throughput for any class with a weapon they are proficient with is always going to be higher than for one without proficiency.
BTW, I also used the Met shower on my SK with no problems(outside the inability to use sting).
Blunts have their place, and saying a different melee weapon with higher crit rate is better for a dwarf is not correct. There is much more to take into account when dealing with equipping a dwarf properly than with other classes. While a higher crit rate does help, dwarves are notorious for missing mobs. Repeatedly. And while a higher crit rate may seem like more damage output, you will miss a lot more than you will with a blunt. My damage throughput on my WS is much higher with a blunt than with any other equal weapon (ie, same enchant, roughly the same sa)
And with the addition of better melee-based two handed blunts, the pot gets even worse. Destroyers can use the 2H blunts now, just as effectively as the 2H swords. And they get to stun with them, in addition to using their other skills. Here is a little breakdown :
1H Sword== (good attack speed | very high crit rate | decent damage | good accuracy}
1H Blunt== { very good attack speed | low crit rate | decent damage | high accuracy}
2H Sword== (low attack speed | good crit rate | very good damage | low accuracy}
2H Blunt== ( low attack speed | low crit rate | very good damage | good accuracy)
(* Weapons in parentheses have similar stats. Weapons go from best to worst. *)
If you have any other questions on the breakdown, please let me know. I have used all of the above weapons on mulitple classes, so this is not just me pulling numbers out of my ***, especially since I don't know the actual numbers. However, it does reflect full buffs.
And don't forget, skills also effect what weapon is better for a given class. Sting, Stun, and Weapon Masteries make a huge difference in PvE and PvP.
In reality, swords > blunts in terms of damage output assuming you have masteries for both, plus buffs.
If you have SwS/BD buffs I'm fairly certain swords pull ahead in DPS even if you do have blunt masteries, since blunt crit rate (even with focus SA) is pretty much impossible to pull up past mediochre.
Also remember that hunter doubles your base crit rate, which is just weapon crit+dex bonus so with an SwS it is daggers>swords>blunts.
DW (not to mention dance of fire) makes each crit do so much more damage that even a dwarf (with their low dex and blunt masteries) does much better dps with a sword over a blunt.
If you have masteries for both, swords are better for damage output over time. However, if you don't have sword masteries (Warsmith comes to mind, maybe because I play one as my main), blunts rule the day.
Dwarves, in general, have low dex to start off with. Add a weapon that is less azccurate, and you miss more often. That being said:
Miss more + crit more = hit more + crit less over a long period of time.
If you add in blunt masteries, and the ability to stun, a dwarf with a sword gets to be a bad idea.
Now, before you go and flame me for saying this, remember the fact that I have played a Warsmith for nearly two years. I have tried every possible combination of weapons and armor, including using two handed blunt mage weapons. The best weapon for a dwarf is either a polearm or a blunt with focus. Although with the addition of 2H blunt melee weapons, that may change. However, a focused blunt > focused sword for a high level dwarf any day of the week.
The dwarf blunt mastery adds 129.3 patk after buffs (skill level 45, learned at 74). This is about the same amount as would be added by dance of warrior (+12%). The difference in crit. rate between sword and blunt is the same as would be given by song of hunter (2x).
I think most people believe song of hunter adds much more dps than the dance of warrior.
If the dwarf hunts buffed swords offer better dps unless accuracy is a problem (ie yellow/red mobs).
The focus buff also adds to critical rate based off of weapon crit. rate: 0.3*(DEX Modifier*Weapon Critical Modifier). The Weapon Critical Modifier is 40 for blunts, 80 for swords, and 120 for daggers. The Dex Modifier goes from 1.01 at 21 dex to 1.24 at 43 dex.
Like Arigato said the dev's apparently balanced blunts for hunting unbuffed. :p
Not if you crit for 4.5 times regular damage even with just prophet and BD buffs..
Maybe from your point of view.
But, honestly, how many people party a warsmith?
That's what I thought....
And to Larena:
While you are correct that the hunter and warrior would increase the crit for a sword, you are forgetting a part of the equation, although you almost have it. It does increase by 12%, but it stacks with masteries as follows:
For instance...
1H Blunt with patk of 200 and blunt masteries adding 129,3 patk = 329.3 patk
1H Sword with patk of 200 and no masteries adding 0patk = 200 patk
add in warrior and you get 12%
200 * 12 % = 24
so with 1H blunt and masteries this equals 353.3
with 1h sword and no masteries this equals 224.
And yes, this is just an example and I know it is not the corect figures for patks, but it does show the point.
Still a gaping difference. and while crit rate for a blunt is considerably lower than for a sword (base of 40 points compared to 80 points), the increase in crits is going to equalize the misses for a class with average dex. For a dwarf on the other hand, who has a low dex value, the misses get proportionally larger. This means that a lower accuuracy will reflect on the number of crits attained while using a sword. In the end, the blunt masteries more than make up for the loss of crit values on a dwarf.
This is not to say that any other class should use a blunt. For any class that gets sword and blunt masteries, the sword is the obvious choice for any type of combat. But only because the masteries add that much more value to the weapons compared to masteries in blunt.
So...
If you are a dwarf, pole and blunt are the way to go.
If you are any other class with blunt and sword masteries, then blunt is the way to go.
The only exception to the second rule would be destroyers using 2H melee blunts, as I personally have not had enough experience with the new weapons to disprove whether they have an impact on DPS over long periods of time. However, being able to add stun seems like it might be of use to a destroyer in certain PvP situations, and a 2H blunt gives the masteries the same as a 2H sword does.
And yes, this is just an example and I know it is not the corect figures for patks, but it does show the point.
It doesn't show the point, because masteries are a considerably smaller percentage of the total PAtk than that - unless you've got -STR, in which case, to be honest, no weapon will make you do much damage.
1H Blunt with patk of 200 and blunt masteries adding 129,3 patk = 329.3 patk
1H Sword with patk of 200 and no masteries adding 0patk = 200 patk
It doesn't work like that though. The mastery doesn't add the patk to the weapon it adds the patk to your patk after everything else has been calculated. Swapping between a sword and blunt will change your patk by the same amount weather or not you have might/warrior or +/- Str tattoos (if the weapons have the same patk, obviously).
If -4.75 Acc changes your miss-rate by enough to counteract doubling your crit rate than a blunt would be better but I have never noticed much of a miss problem even on a prophet with a dagger fighting whites and yellows.
When fighting pink and red mobs it might be different. However, with DW and dance of fire I very much doubt there is ever a time when a blunt will out damage a sword on a 75 WS/BH; 4.75 acc will never change your miss rate by that much.
:mad:
I was just using it as a point about which weapon was better for a dwarf with blunt mastery. The dwarf's blunt mastery adds simmilar amounts of patk to dance of warrior and the sword is double the crit rate much like having song of hunter.
If you could only have hunter or warrior which would you pick?
Have any of you people ever SEEN dwarf hit with a sword, then with a blunt?
The attack speed with a sword is ABSOLUTELY HIDEOUS.
Atk speed is the same between swords and blunts, what is it that your trying to say?
Check the attack speed on your dwarf. Actually equip the weapon. Depending on which level dwarf I equip the sword onto, I lose between 50-75 attack speed. That was with the aoba with haste ---> which doesn't add 50-75 attack speed.
Check the attack speed on your dwarf. Actually equip the weapon. Depending on which level dwarf I equip the sword onto, I lose between 50-75 attack speed. That was with the aoba with haste ---> which doesn't add 50-75 attack speed.
i dont think so
were you equiping the aoba out of grade?
Check the attack speed on your dwarf. Actually equip the weapon. Depending on which level dwarf I equip the sword onto, I lose between 50-75 attack speed. That was with the aoba with haste ---> which doesn't add 50-75 attack speed.
I have played a dwarf since DAY ONE, I fully know how the game works, I fully know the atk speed between 1 handed swords and 1 handed blunt.
Are you calculating in duals here? Duals have NORMAL attack speed, blunt and swords got FAST attack speed, and daggers really fast. Sure 2 handed blunts is normal attack speed as well.
In any event, if what I'm trying to get what your saying here is that your comparing 2 different grades of weapon where one of them is to high for you? LOL go back and compare when your dwarf is within that lv, and compare a AOBA with haste with a sword without haste is dumb to... seriously.
Swords and blunts got BOTH IDENTICAL atk speed. 2 handed swords and 2 handed blunts got as well IDENTICAL attack speed. This apply for ANY class ( not between classes of course )
Of course you had lower P.Atk with a bottom B sword and no masteries than you did with a top C blunt and masteries. The sword DID crit more, thats what swords do. Blunts also are more accurate. One thing they are NOT is faster. Swords and Blunts are identical except for one crits and one is accurate. You can't compare a haste weapon to a weapon without haste, and come to any sort of conclusion about the attack speed.
Why on earth would you go for Haste duals though, they are amongst the worst in the game. Focus all the way, much more damage.
For some reason I thought that weapon masteries stacked with dances/songs.
I could be wrong about this, however, as I never party a BD or SWS. It's the whole "getting a party on a dwarf" deal again.
If they don't stack, then they are useless for any class using a weapon they have masteries in. Since everyone seems to want them in parties, it leads me to believe that they do stack. In which case a dwarf with a blunt is better than a dwarf with a sword. Blunt + blunt masteries + dances/songs > sword + dances/songs - masteries.
Case in point, for those of you who don't have a high level dwarf, a dwarf with a blunt misses about once in 20 attacks while a dwarf with a sword misses about once in 4 attacks. While a sword does crit more due to higher base crit rate, a dwarf's dex hurts it to the point where critting doesn't even apply.
In the end, a dwarf with a blunt with focus crits the same as a sword without focus, that is to say NEVER. While a sword with focus might increase that, it still means a dwarf using a sword with focus crits ALMOST NEVER and misses a whole lot more. The DPS of a dwarf using a blunt vs a dwarf using a sword clearly goes to the blunt.
And if any of you still disagree with that, go make yourselves an a grade dwarf, but don't cry when you can't get a party after level 40.
The weapon experiments were while my B grade BH didn't have her own weapon. (I was borrowing whatever one of my friend's wasn't using at the time.) My WS had gotten to A grade and wasn't happy with B weapons.. she felt the need to craft some A grade ones. (Or try to, rather. ++fail.)
Speaking of playing, my highest WS & BH now share a tallum heavy set, destroyer hammer with haste, Meteor Shower with focus, and Tallum Glaive with wide blow.
The MS is nice, my WarSmith seems to land more spoils with it (hmm... does that mean a landed spoil is a critical?), but the increase in crit rate doesn't really equate out to many more crits. The larger patk on the 2 handed blunt is pretty nice tho. And nothing beats wide blow for hitting a thousand mobs at once.
While a sword with focus might increase that, it still means a dwarf using a sword with focus crits ALMOST NEVER and misses a whole lot more.
My Bounty Hunter with +7 SLS*TSU crits plenty, not as much as my BD obviously, but more than enough to make a big difference. I know they aren't a single sword, but similar principle.
If you have masteries for both, swords are better for damage output over time. However, if you don't have sword masteries (Warsmith comes to mind, maybe because I play one as my main), blunts rule the day.
Dwarves, in general, have low dex to start off with. Add a weapon that is less azccurate, and you miss more often. That being said:
Miss more + crit more = hit more + crit less over a long period of time.
If you add in blunt masteries, and the ability to stun, a dwarf with a sword gets to be a bad idea.
Now, before you go and flame me for saying this, remember the fact that I have played a Warsmith for nearly two years. I have tried every possible combination of weapons and armor, including using two handed blunt mage weapons. The best weapon for a dwarf is either a polearm or a blunt with focus. Although with the addition of 2H blunt melee weapons, that may change. However, a focused blunt > focused sword for a high level dwarf any day of the week.
This is a very simplistic answer that is misleading. The best weapon depends on the situation. My 76+ WS is my main, played since OB. The very best damage I every did (for my level) was with +4 tsurugi*samurai. With crit buffs it easily outdamaged my AoBA. The only problem I had was when I pulled agro from the tank. Then I missed my shield.
Right now I use a soul bow for raids. The damage is much better than my elysian axe, and I don't have to deal with the AOE attacks.
The higher crit rate of the polearm is also very nice, so I often use that.
I have not played with tatoos, but I know of dwarves who plus their strength and dex and go with a dagger.
You do realize your comparing a 2 handed sword ( aka NORMAL ATTACK SPEED ) vs a 1 handed weapon with fast atk speed ( same atk speed 1 handed swords have ) plus it got haste SA? Is it just me who see something wrong here?
There you got the damage and how much damage some weapons do in this game. Got no 1 handed sword in here but you can see how it works.
100% damage = Elysian Axe +0. the Crit 1x = Damage if you never crit, 2x = if you just crit normally, 3x = with DW and 4xwith an BH as well.
the guy who asked above, no masteries does not count in on buffs, it's just an addition to the final P.atk in the end, all warrior classes got 129 P.atk from there masteries at lv 74.
Anyhow if you look at the pic above, fully buffed an Tsurugi*SLS +4 got as much damage output as top A grade weapon fully buffed.
And PS for the poster above, bows is darn sucky damage for a dwarf, believe it or not. You see the stats of an Carnage bow in the pic. Sure Soul bow will be bit more damage but not enough.
You do realize your comparing a 2 handed sword ( aka NORMAL ATTACK SPEED ) vs a 1 handed weapon with fast atk speed ( same atk speed 1 handed swords have ) plus it got haste SA? Is it just me who see something wrong here?
PleChan, you just lost ALL credibility as a player of Lineage 2.
Since when is a Kesh w/ Focus a 2H sword? Last I checked my SK was able to use it and have a shield equipped. But that's just me.
See? When you do your best to sound condescending, you screw EVERYTHING UP?
You do realize your comparing a 2 handed sword ( aka NORMAL ATTACK SPEED ) vs a 1 handed weapon with fast atk speed ( same atk speed 1 handed swords have ) plus it got haste SA? Is it just me who see something wrong here?
OK Class, how many hands does it take to hold a Kesh?
Oh, and by the way. I'm more than willing to admit when I'm wrong.
Unbuffed 68 WS has atk speed 428 w/ Tallum Blade/no SA, and Meteor Shower/focus. Apparently haste on the AOBA played a bigger part than I realized. (After all, it isn't really a noticable "hitting faster" effect. Didn't realize that was that much atk speed ^^)
I apologize for calling you condescending. But a Kesh is still a one handed sword...
I still stand by blunts > any other weapon on a class without masteries in the "any other weapon" category, AFTER a certain level. ..At least with the mastered weapon, I can hit things..
When I notice this actually seeming to make a difference is at around level 55.
Now, if you disagree with me, great. Just don't treat me like a naughty first grader, I'll think you're perverted.
For those of you who still think that masteries do not do anything when it comes to DPS, especially on a dwarf, answer me this, why do each and every one of you have maxed out weapon masteries?
I'll tell you the reason.
BECAUSE IT ADDS DAMAGE!!!!!! An additional 129 Patk is nothing to sneeze at. And while a sword is going to crit more, you still lose out on the additional Patk from having masteries. Don't forget, less Patk also means less dmg on crits. Again, it comes down to all the combinations and formulae that go into the damage calculations.
A Blunt on a Dwarf with blunt masteries > a Sword on a dwarf without sword masteries. You can spin it however you like, but in the end the numbers DO NOT LIE.
Higher Patk = more DPS
Higher Accuracy = more DPS
Higher Crit rate = more DPS
Lower Patk = less DPS
Lower Accuracy = Less DPS
Lower Crit Rate = Less DPS
This is using two equal value weapons, ie. AOBA and Damascus, with no SA to tamper and spoil the findings.
So, for a dwarf we shall compare the two. And while I know someone is going to say that 4.5% accuracy difference doesn't mean anything and that lower DEX does nothing, I beg to differ. The accuracy bonus for a dwarf far outwieghs the crit rate increase of a sword.
Do the math, the DPS over long periods of time on a dwarf with a blunt far outweigh a dwarf with a sword. And I'm not talking about a week's use. I'm talking about months of use. I have used every weapon possible on my warsmith, for every grade except S Grade (it's too **** expensive) and I have come to the conclusion that a good blunt with focus > any sword in existance.
Granted, blunts are not the weapon of choice for any other class, unless they are interested in carrying an extra for the stun capabilities.
Oh yeah, and to the prophet who says that swords and daggers are better for him, do more DPS, and are better then for all other classes: just remember, you have Generic Weapon Masteries. This means that no matter what weapon you use, you will get the extra Patk and Matk with that weapon. So, in your case a dagger > a sword > a blunt. Dwarves do not get generic masteries after level 15, only Polearm and Blunt masteries. This makes a huge difference in play styles and ability to deal damage consistently to mobs and players.
Sure weapon masteries add damage, just not as much as crit rate does.
Masteries are added after everything else, dance of warrior included. This doesn't mean that it doesn't stack with masteries just that having masteries doesn't increase the amount of patk the dance adds.
Blue6, you say you have tried every weapon you could and do more dps with blunts - did you always have at least SE buffs? I assume your tests never included a BD?
I am very sure that with SE buffs + Hunter + Fire a dwarf with a sword far out damages a dwarf with a blunt. I sadly don't have a 70+ dwarf to try a controlled test with.
A Blunt on a Dwarf with blunt masteries > a Sword on a dwarf without sword masteries. You can spin it however you like, but in the end the numbers DO NOT LIE.
What numbers? Two stats go up one down on one side and one up two down on the other isn't exactly convincing dps numbers. :p
Case in point, for those of you who don't have a high level dwarf, a dwarf with a blunt misses about once in 20 attacks while a dwarf with a sword misses about once in 4 attacks. While a sword does crit more due to higher base crit rate, a dwarf's dex hurts it to the point where critting doesn't even apply.
thats total bs i actually changed out my bw gloves for a set of dc once just to raise my dex enough to lower my misses
the miss rate with guidance is barely any better with a blunt than with a sword at higher lvls while the crit rate is a huuuuge difference
try and argue this anyway you want i done 3 weeks worth of xp trials useing duels, a 1 hander, a 2 handed sword and a meteor with focus every single one of those weapons got me more xp per day than the blunt did (it was the only weapon sa'd)
the only reason i'd call the bow gimp was because it used mp and i couldnt regen hp useing vr
keep in mind this is useing nothing but se buffs, start adding in bd/sws/prophet/queen buffs and blunts dont even come close
At lower levels, weapon masteries count less, as there are fewer levels of the masteries. And while crit rate does affect DPS, adding more damage to regular hits and crits also affects DPS, and affects it on a much larger scale than crits will.
With no SA, the sword is not going to be as effective on a dwarf as a blunt will, especially post 61. In addition, having a blunt with focus is an even better weapon for a dwarf. I use a Meteor shower with focus, and I crit more than I did with a Kesh w/ focus. Mainly because I don't miss nearly as often. A higher miss rate will mean fewer crits long term, and while a blunt has a lower crit rate, I almost never miss while using one. In addition to not missing, my crits deal more damage because of the weapon masteries.
In the end, it really doesn't matter for dwarves what their DPS is. Bounty Hunters are there only for spoils, and Warsmiths rely on their golems for dealing damage. (My Mech Golem out damages me 1.3 to 1 without pet shots or buffs and 4 to 1 with pet shots and buffs. I can never keep aggro from the **** thing, but it does kill mighty fast.)
Swords are better than blunts for any class who has either sword masteries or generic masteries, in addition to characters with neither sword nor blunt masteries. Also, characters with the Sword/Blunt mastery will also benefit from using a sword over a blunt. The only exception being the reliance on stun attacks.
If my warsmith suddenly found himself with sword masteries, I would switch to a sword in a heartbeat because I would be adding significantly more DPS with the masteries than without. I would probably have to get a DEX tat also in order to maximize my ability to hit, but that is another topic entirely.
I prefer blunts. Although duals are irresistably cute on a girl dorfie.
Call me an idiot if you like. Just please don't call a kesh a two handed sword.
Edit: Both of my high level dorfies are +4 dex, +7 Str, -4000000000000000000000002 con. For all of you detractors, the extra 2 str comes from tallum. Yes, I KNOW tats can only affect to 5.
In the end, it really doesn't matter for dwarves what their DPS is. Bounty Hunters are there only for spoils, and Warsmiths rely on their golems for dealing damage. (My Mech Golem out damages me 1.3 to 1 without pet shots or buffs and 4 to 1 with pet shots and buffs. I can never keep aggro from the **** thing, but it does kill mighty fast.)
In the end, it really doesn't matter for dwarves what their DPS is. Bounty Hunters are there only for spoils, and Warsmiths rely on their golems for dealing damage. (My Mech Golem out damages me 1.3 to 1 without pet shots or buffs and 4 to 1 with pet shots and buffs. I can never keep aggro from the **** thing, but it does kill mighty fast.)
thats abit exagerated :P
It's all about what it feels like until NC gives us a way to tell our summon's damage, rather than to have them hit US.
only way i know is to check my xp with and without the golem
-15% for xp penalty and try and account for the monster hp regen
golem seems to do about 60% of the total damage
Thats with both unbuffed and me using a met shower with focus. I do have a slightly higher accuracy than my golem, and golem is only level 6 (ie level 62 i think) It only does slightly more damage than I do over longer periods of time, thus where I get my 1.3 to 1 figure. However, once you add in pet shots and buffs, the Golem truly becomes a killing machine. With Might 3/Emp 3, it's patk and matk are both over 1k. Thus the reason it becomes a 4:1 ratio of damage. In the back of GC I was able to spawn kill with SE buffs and my golem out. Without golem, I can't even kill mobs back there, at least not in any kind of timely fashion.
Still tho, BH is only around for spoil, and WS is only around to make shots. I've got both, and I know just how hard it is to play a dwarf, especially considering the fact that both are gimp DD's compared to other melee classes. And no one wants to pt a WS outside of clan/ally, and then only with prodding.
Scrap the blunts, grab a pole and do AoE.. can't beat a good AoE party :)
Other than that, a sword WILL outdamage a blunt no matter what masteries you got, once you're properly buffed. Luckily more blunts have focus SA's now, so that evens them out a little... UNTIL you get a SWS in group, then it's back to normal.. lalala . <-- full stop. EOD. K.
BTW, crit buffs stack like this:
2x dmg normal crit
3x dmg +death whisper
4.5x dmg +dance of fire
Ah crap, I'm sure I did read that name as a dual, specially the way you wrote it. My fault there, thought I still stand for what I wrote on other hand. 1 handed sword = 1 handed blunt atk speed, as much as 2 handed sword = 2 handed blunt in atk speed.
Also I think you all missed the DPS figure I posted before: http://lineage2.mugimugi.org/Stats3.png
( This figure is calculated from an dwarf with maxed masteries to btw )
Also I can say this much at least, I usually rarely miss, maybe miss once on every 3-4 mob or so, sure there is areas you miss a ton, but those mobs you miss a ton with blunt or sword so doesn't truthfully mater to much.
I've once did a test on how much evasion played a roll. I can say this much 8 in evasion difference resulted in about 5% miss rate. The hit rate between sword & blunt is just 5 so, it's not gonna translate to that high miss rate to reflect the extra damage.
Anyhow Blue6 I can tell you how you can calculate the difference above it's not that hard, to calculate the DPS is quite easy, since both P.atk and Atk speed is linear, just do this. Btw this is excluding crits of course, to add crits you need to do a bit more work :).
P.atk * Atk speed = DPS, In your case.
Dwarf: 185850 (Massive Gimped P.atk for you thought, have myself about 700 P.atk unbuffered with an +0 meteor shower )
Golem: 262432
The difference is that the golem got 46% higher damage, of course the real difference is not exactly that high due you will crit a LOT more.
On other hand to gain using golem for XP speed is even easier calculation thought, since the golem takes 15% XP. in other words, if a mob gave 1k XP you get 850 xp.
So to gain on it the golem need to increase your damage with a total of 1000/850 = 17,6% damage.
We already showed that your golem got 146% of your damage excluding crits so :P quite easily done here to show that the golem will increase your total XP gain massively. Of course this only when you solo, in parties you need to count in everyones DPS and the fort to see if the 15% XP loss is worth it.
Well, that last part is easy. I never get a party outside of my alliance on my Warsmith, so having my golem out is always better for me. Just wish I did more damage.
Oh yeah, and btw, just for everyone's info:
WS using Met Shower(focus) Patk: 450, Acc: 98, Crit: 105, Spd: 413
WS using Tallum Blade (no SA) Patk: 364, Acc: 93, Crit: 87, Spd: 413
WS Using Infernal Master(focus) Patk: 442, Acc: 93, Crit: 148, Spd: 354
Anyone wanna argue that using a sword is still more effective? On a Dwarf, using a blunt is always going to be more effecitve if you have maxed blunt masteries.Granted, the Tallum Blade does not have an SA, but it doesn't give focus anyways. My point is that a Blunt with Focus on a dwarf will ALWAYS be more effective than a Sword without focus.
I no longer have any b grade gear to test this out with on weapons of even stature. Although, the 2H Infernal Master w/ Focus will still not out damage a Meteor Shower w/ Focus long term, it may come close to even, but will not outdo the Blunt because of the much lower attack speed, combined with the lower accuracy.
Not always, with enough crit damage buffs a sword will outdamage a blunt. Period.
To Ple.. I didn't get what you tried to show in that stat-image.. what does it show!? A bow will FAAAAAR outdamage a blunt with proper buffs, just because the critrate is 3 times as high..
Info taken from L2Calc: L2Calc (http://www.l2guru.com/l2calc/)
Comparison of weapons without and with following buffs on WS lvl62.
Following buffs are applied:
Might3
Dance of Warrior
Greater Might3
Guidance3
Dance of Inspiration
Focus3
Song of Hunter
Haste2
Dance of Fury
Blessing of Queen3
Chant of Victory
Conclusion:
Fully buffed blunt has 13,5% PATK more than sword. Difference also gets smaller with every enchant.
Fully buffed sword has 66% more crit chance than blunt (both with Focus SA).
Attack speed is the same for 1-handed blunt and sword.
Accuracy is almost the same.
Fully buffed sword is better for dwarves than blunt.
I didn't even consider crit power buffs which obviously benefit swords more than blunts.
Not always, with enough crit damage buffs a sword will outdamage a blunt. Period.
To Ple.. I didn't get what you tried to show in that stat-image.. what does it show!? A bow will FAAAAAR outdamage a blunt with proper buffs, just because the critrate is 3 times as high..
It will far out damage a blunt per HIT not OVER TIME. You do realize that a bow is more then half as slow as a melee blunt right? First off how to calculate atk speed with a bow is basically halve the speed you see on the screen, eg 400/2 = 200 atk speed compared to a blunt.
So a blunt normally would have around 420 or so and a bow 340 or so but in reality the blunt got 420 and the bow 340/2 = 170 at speed compared to blunt.
The blunt will hit harder in the long run then a bow, archers on other hand get passive to increase the atk speed to lesser the difference & there P.atk masteries add 700 P.atk in the end, compared to 129 P.atk for other warrior classes. Thats why they hit sooo much harder and actually get use for there bow.
Anyhow the pic you saw basically show the DPS difference with the different crit buffs over time.
Anyhow the bows, there is very slow and slow, very slow = slow first attack, but fast recharge, 1,2s attack 0,8 recharge. slow bows is 0,8 sec attack and 1,2sec recharge. This make slow bows better to kite with. Also the time I wrote here is base atk speed, if I recall 200. If you got 400 atk speed the above figure get halved, 0,6s atk, 0,4s recharge example.
To Ple.. I didn't get what you tried to show in that stat-image.. what does it show!? A bow will FAAAAAR outdamage a blunt with proper buffs, just because the critrate is 3 times as high..
Shows the relative DPS of a variety of weapons on a level 73 dwarf... and yes it takes the bow's crit rate into account (those stats were with Focus but not Song of Hunter).
With Focus3 the difference on a dwarf is 170 crit instead of 118 on the meteor shower w/focus, or a 17% overall crit rate instead of an 11.8%, so it's not a threefold increase.
You do get a threefold increase between a blunt w/o focus and a bow (30% vs 10%) if you have both Focus3 and Song of Hunter. It's 30% versus 16% with SoH and the Meteor Shower w/ Focus, so not quite double.
Anyone wanna argue that using a sword is still more effective? On a Dwarf, using a blunt is always going to be more effecitve if you have maxed blunt masteries.
You keep harping on 1-handed swords vs blunts. It is dual swords with focus SA that is the winner. Not only do you get better crits, but your patk will be higher, at least until the mid 60s. Blunt masteries can't make up for the advantage in patk you get from duals, until your well into A grade.
You keep harping on 1-handed swords vs blunts. It is dual swords with focus SA that is the winner. Not only do you get better crits, but your patk will be higher, at least until the mid 60s. Blunt masteries can't make up for the advantage in patk you get from duals, until your well into A grade.
There's no duals with crit beyond Tsuru*SLS (second top B), and you need to overenchant it quite a lot before the patk pushes it to better than A grade. Further, while its PATK is comparable to a meteor shower, it's a slower attack speed. A 2H blunt like doom crusher will have 30% more PATK.
Full prophet buff with BD dances, the tsuru*SLS +4 is about the same DPS as a clean Elysian, and quite a lot less than a Meteor Shower w/ Focus (a Meteor Shower +3 w/ Focus is quite a lot better than the Tsurugi*SLS +4).
Oh I should also add one further caveat on those numbers that PleChan and I did. They do not take accuracy or missing into account -- the numbers are the relative DPS of various weapons assuming 100% hit rate. This is because the hit rate varies based on the target's evasion and specific formulas for that are not known.
So the overall effect of this assumption is that in reality, blunts perform slightly better compared to sword/bow than our numbers suggest.
Oh I should also add one further caveat on those numbers that PleChan and I did. They do not take accuracy or missing into account -- the numbers are the relative DPS of various weapons assuming 100% hit rate. This is because it's the hit rate varies based on the target's evasion and specific formulas for that are not known.
So the overall effect of this assumption is that in reality, blunts perform slightly better compared to sword/bow than our numbers suggest.
Please don't forget that dwarves also get two stun attacks, both of which work post-40. While the d grade stun attack doesn't do nearly as much damage, it still lands stun quite frequently.
And I also realize that everyone thinks that DEX plays a nominal role in attacking, both with crit rates and accuracy. However, having played an SK with a lot higher DEX, you can rest assured that my SK hit much more frequently than my WS ever did. Not that that says much, since dwarves miss a lot anyways.
And to Tsili:
This discussion has nothing to do with duals. It is about whether a sword is better than a blunt. Dual swords are in a completely different category, as they have completely different masteries, and I still prefer a blunt to a sword to duals.
And on a complete side note: I land stun more often with my Guild Member's Club than I do with my Meteor Shower. I have landed stun on a Destro using Lionheart 2 with that thing when I couldn't stun with the Shower to save my life. Anyone have any idea why this is?
Please don't forget that dwarves also get two stun attacks, both of which work post-40. While the d grade stun attack doesn't do nearly as much damage, it still lands stun quite frequently.
Yes, and that is not a reason to use a blunt as your main weapon - guild members club.
And I also realize that everyone thinks that DEX plays a nominal role in attacking, both with crit rates and accuracy. However, having played an SK with a lot higher DEX, you can rest assured that my SK hit much more frequently than my WS ever did. Not that that says much, since dwarves miss a lot anyways.
Dex does play a nominal role in crit rate and a fairly nominal one in accuracy. One gets +0.01*(weapon base crit rate) added to crit rate for each point of dex over 20. Accuracy is based off of the square root of dex times six. This gives the accuracy difference between a dex of 35 (LE) and a dex of 29 (dwarf) as 3.19.
Edit: The crit. rate added by dex is muliplied by buffs but the accuracy isn't.
A focused blunt (unavailable for seroius hunting before A Grade) is nice if no or only limited (standard type) buffs are available. With every layer of other buffs you stack on (kitty, prophecies, jewellery), the other weapon types move out of being 'pretty much almost even' and well into 'vastly superior' DPS.
Duals are not a good option since they don't get focus at higher levels - swords and daggers are nice, or, since you don't get the mastery translation which makes one hand swords so good for mystics, use the new A Grade two-handed sword (it's focus-able).
And please, stop talking about stuns - it's not that difficult to swap weapons to stun, and any dwarf worth their mettle who's using a non-blunt weapon for doing their damage still carries a cheap back-up blunt to stun with.
If a blunt doesn't have focus or looks really good, or you have a problem with not enough buffers in clan, it's not worth your attention for PvE.
ETA: Larena, the only really big influences on crit rates are buffs, weapon type and SAs. DEX does change a little, but certainly not much - and three accuracy can make a huge difference (I notice the misses dropping when I ding).
Yes of course.. over time, who cares about one hits, except for massive patk chars like archers..
Three times as high crit rate is based on BASE weapon critical.
Blunt = 40
Swords = 80
Daggers/bows = 120
Then there is all the focus stuff and such. I give up on this discussion.. all I see is numbers without real weight behind them. Pure DPS, a high critical weapon will always outdamage a lower critical rate weapon over time. Only prophet/SE buffs won't make them do more damage, but once we add BD and more, you really start to notice the difference. Bows may be slow, but they have massive patk, and archers only get a +12% atk speed self buff, not a tremendous difference, but noticable. Archer masteries only add around 800patk or so, and buffs doesn't increase masteries, so it's gimp anyways >.< Accuracy isn't that big of a deal in most cases, but don't try to use it against an evasion class :p
Then there is all the focus stuff and such. I give up on this discussion.. all I see is numbers without real weight behind them.
The numbers were calculated taking into account crit rate, full buffs from a 74 prophet +bladedancer. PATK and Atk Speed are important, too. A weapon with a lower critical but a better attack speed or patk can do more damage, depending on how high the patk/aspd difference is.
Bows may be slow, but they have massive patk, and archers only get a +12% atk speed self buff, not a tremendous difference, but noticable. Archer masteries only add around 800patk or so, and buffs doesn't increase masteries, so it's gimp anyways >.<
Yeah, in that table PleChan showed, it was for a 73 (or was it 72, I forget) dwarf. The archer skills would change the numbers pretty drastically. Of course nobody will say blunt > bow in general, but in specific cases it can be.
For some reason, I could have sworn that critical damage is based on Patk. If that's the case, then over 100 Patk difference between swords and blunts on a dwarf makes a huge impact. Increasing damage potential from songs, dances, and buffs only adds to this.
On a high level dwarf, a blunt is better than a sword. While the sword does have a higher crit rate, the blunt still does more consistent damage due to higher patk, and also hits more often. A couple points difference in Accuracy may not seem like much, but it does make a difference long term. With 100% hit rate, a sword and blunt will be nearly evenly matched outside of crit rate, due to modifier to base Patk. When you factor in missing, then a blunt gets better with each swing. With each miss, you lose a potential crit with a sword. And again, I rarely miss with a blunt on my Warsmith.
For some reason, I could have sworn that critical damage is based on Patk.
It is. A crit means your normal damage is multiplied by a modifier which I rather unimaginatively call the critical damage modifier. The base modifier is 2 but buffs can raise that. So increasing patk increases crit damage too.
Critting TWICE as often for less with a sword, is better than critting half as often for 10-15% more damage, imo. Daggers give you even a little less accuracy/patk, but quite a bit more atk speed/critical.
And focus blunts are rare (i think only meteor shower) so you cant generally have both the crit rate and masteries. Swords/daggers also have a better range of SAs, there are options to get focus for every grade.
I'm not a dwarf, but with all the experience I have with the game mechanics, if I did reroll a dwarf I would use either a sword or a dagger. Actually, I did sub BH for a while, I used a dark screamer and it worked out quite well... Stun is a waste of mana in PvE anyway ++spoil... even a WS's spoil's lowered land rate is better than wasting MP to stun.
Best weapon to level fast for a dwarf is unarguably a polearm... If you have the support to do AoE, there is no single-mob xp at that level to come near to what you can get AoE.
Yes, using my equations you can get the best damage out of a soul separator with crit damage (between 6 and 20% more DPS depending on how good of buffs you have). The only issue there is a loss of 9 accuracy (recall my formula doesn't factor in missing). 9 accuracy is like being 9 levels lower than you are; so a 75 Bounty Hunter w/ dagger would have the accuracy of a level 66 Bounty Hunter w/ blunt.
Without being able to factor missing into account it's difficult to say just how much better the damage would be with the soul separator in reality. It would be a pretty bad weapon for fighting pink/red monsters, though. Probably works good on greens. I know a dwarf with a bow misses pretty commonly on whites, though, so even there the accuracy penalty might significantly reduce that DPS.
Id think that a bloody orchid with focus should do more O.O
Also, if accuracy is a huge issue that you would prefer a sword, Soul Sep can also get a guidance of 4. That would bring it to more accuracy than a sword and if you would like to use a sheild, the only A focus sword is a 2 hander... I would usually regard guidance as a horrid SA for a dagger (to be used by a real dagger user), but if you are on the borderline of being able to hit mobs it could be a nice substitute for a sword (still get higher critical/attack speed bonuses)