Im not saying anyone specific and not defending anyone but now people are getting banned for suscipious trades?
Since when has it been a bannable offense? Was there a policy change that the community wasnt notified about? No im scared out of my mind about trading gear weapons and adena between accounts or even my friends.
Can we get a clarfiraction on this new bannable offense because I think you are going over the top with suspcious trades ive traded over 100 - 200 million between my dwarf accounts and sale shops and i not above traded armour jewel or weapons to friends to help them level etc.
So please can mistryl or hgmspam explain exactly what constitutes a suspcious trade and how we can avoid getting banned for ummm doing nothing wrong?
Eh i just didnt want to post specifics and get the thread locked. I just want to know when suspcious trades has become a bannable offense and why wasnt the community notified of this change and how do we prevent being falsely banned for it because i think something like this leaves the door open for a lot of false bans and there no appeals policy with it makes it a bad idea.
Well.. This cannot be real. Who told you a 'suspicious trade' will get you banned?? Until they outlaw scamming, no trade will get you banned, since all scams are 'suspicious trades.'
(GM: We're banning you because you sold a stem for 100 million adena.
(MrScammer: Yeah, but I told him it was a draconic bow shaft.
(GM: Oh.. That's okay then. Never mind.)
Did someone give you this as a reason why they got banned? If so, I suspect that person is hiding the real reason they got banned.
I wish folks who violate the EULA and get banned would just fess up.. We don't need all this panic and concern when they make up reasons why their ban was 'unjustified.'
"Suspicious trades" probably means "sold a stem for 10 million adena to a known farmer/adena seller".
I'm pretty sure they're only banning people for whom the trade just happened to be with one of our automated friends or their associates.
I mean it's pretty obvious what's up when PlayerJoe is selling a single bone arrow at the monster track for 10,000,000 and all of a sudden XiaoQwertyuiop walks up next to them and the store disappears without him standing up.
I set up shop selling a piece of crap book for 100 mil sometimes. It lets me stay in shop mode even if i sell out everything else im selling.
Now if some fool buys that does that mean im making a suspcious trade?
There is too much speculation to make with something called a suspcious trade. Its like well you were standing next to a bot you must be a bot too so we going to just ban you in case.
I set up shop selling a piece of crap book for 100 mil sometimes. It lets me stay in shop mode even if i sell out everything else im selling.
Now if some fool buys that does that mean im making a suspcious trade?
There is too much speculation to make with something called a suspcious trade. Its like well you were standing next to a bot you must be a bot too so we going to just ban you in case.
I'm pretty sure they'll only ban you for taking money from an adena farmer. I don't think it's the amount of cash as much as your trading partner -- when they ban the farmer it seems they're looking at who the farmer sold his adena to. About time. Only banning the buyers can you ever hope to get the adena farming problem under control.
Ah but how you know who an adena farmer is? If im afk and farmer buys something from my store really nothing you can do right?
Like i said way too much speculation and assuming to ban people.
And what if a friend buys the adena then gives you 100 mil? Should get banned from a friend ebaying? How you know they exactly where the money came from?
See what i mean way too much to go on. Trust me ive been there i been banned on a bad judgment call and took me weeks to get my account back.
I read on some forums that third party program users got not only their crew banned, but also "mules" or "safe characters" they store their hard earned loot in. Could this be it?
just click on the trade window and scroll up (took me a year before i figured it out :/)
Wow never figured that out too :( Thanks for tip, I try it.
Trade bug usually appears when one has very few things in inventory. I usually do it that I unequip all I have on character so inventory fills up and trade then.
Eh i just didnt want to post specifics and get the thread locked. I just want to know when suspcious trades has become a bannable offense and why wasnt the community notified of this change and how do we prevent being falsely banned for it because i think something like this leaves the door open for a lot of false bans and there no appeals policy with it makes it a bad idea.
It's been happening since C1. Seems to be on rare occasions but it's been happening ever since and is done to prevent ebay/account hacking incidents.
just click on the trade window and scroll up (took me a year before i figured it out :/)
Wow never figured that out too :( Thanks for tip, I try it.
Trade bug usually appears when one has very few things in inventory. I usually do it that I unequip all I have on character so inventory fills up and trade then.
oh wow, even if done right (which considering their history is doubtful), it won't help anything at all, if anything it will just make things worse. Its one of those "a day late and a dollar short" things.
Would have been great years ago, but now, its not.
oh wow, even if done right (which considering their history is doubtful), it won't help anything at all, if anything it will just make things worse. Its one of those "a day late and a dollar short" things.
Would have been great years ago, but now, its not.
So ... what would you advise NCSoft to do with e-bayers caught this way?
oh wow, even if done right (which considering their history is doubtful), it won't help anything at all, if anything it will just make things worse. Its one of those "a day late and a dollar short" things.
Would have been great years ago, but now, its not.
So ... what would you advise NCSoft to do with e-bayers caught this way?
Ah but how you know who an adena farmer is? If im afk and farmer buys something from my store really nothing you can do right?
Like i said way too much speculation and assuming to ban people.
And what if a friend buys the adena then gives you 100 mil? Should get banned from a friend ebaying? How you know they exactly where the money came from?
See what i mean way too much to go on. Trust me ive been there i been banned on a bad judgment call and took me weeks to get my account back.
Theres a difference between a normal player buying stem for 500 mil and a known adena seller buying buying stem for 500 mil. If it is a known adena seller that buys from your shop then its going to be suspicious. The people that sell adena probably dont go around towns buying stuff unless its from people that they have sold adena too, especially if its a completely over the top price for a item. Although it is of course possible that they buy from the wrong person, it would be hard to prove your innocence and probably very rare that they do it.
Well whatever may have changed I surely hope they keep a clear line on things.
I myself have 2 accounts and whatever I get in mats/adena and stuff I transfer it around to my various toons to keep it somewhat organized. (I rarely set up a sell-shop as I lack the will, resources or oppertunity.)
Toon 1 base-mats/bulk of adena I have, toon 2 a-grade key mats, toon 3 b-grade keymats etc etc.
When ever I transfer stuff no adena is transfered between the toons of my accounts unless I need it for porting etc.
I have no space to put what I have on 1 toons\ as a warehouse since lacks space for that.
Heck, several people who's been argueing for this lately has been people who simply want to see adena prices to go up so they themselves can sell their adena for better rl dollars when they leave. (and of course, since they wouldn't be tagged as farmers, they wouldn't be caught by this system). It also has the added disadvantage of making regular player botting on the side more profitable and make larger alliance adena sales more popular.
Do I get it right ... You're advocating against more efficient methods at finding and punishing EULA breakers?
Why? You (not you LordChaos666 specifically, but any "you") don't have anything to lose unless you're using the secondary market yourself.
Heck, several people who's been argueing for this lately has been people who simply want to see adena prices to go up so they themselves can sell their adena for better rl dollars when they leave. (and of course, since they wouldn't be tagged as farmers, they wouldn't be caught by this system). It also has the added disadvantage of making regular player botting on the side more profitable and make larger alliance adena sales more popular.
None of which is particularly desirable.
- Secondary market prices are of no concern whatsoever to the legit player. It's neither desirable nor not desirable for the adena prices in dollars to raise, it's totally irrelevant. I don't know why you even bring up this point.
- "Regular player botting on the side" are a problem with or without stronger anti-e-baying measures, and are dealt with (or not dealt with, depending on your outlook) appropriately already. This problem doesn't get any worse when some adena buyers disappear together with their illicit gains.
- What are those "large alliance adena sales" you're speaking about? The issues I know about usually deal with someone buying adena for a personal gain (in which case it doesn't matter if they're in an alliance or not, and in fact as often as not are un-clanned). Buying adena for your clan or alliance happens and I personally feel not enough is being done about it (in particular, the punishments are too mild - dissolving the clan/alliance and removing its assets should be the norm, not the exception), but this doesn't have anything to do with banning those scumbags who buy adena for themselves.
Why? You (not you LordChaos666 specifically, but any "you") don't have anything to lose unless you're using the secondary market yourself.
Anything that increases incentives for bad play and makes the game worse overall does give us something to lose. Even worse, unless you retroactively take out those who cheated in the past to gain solid positions, it only rewards them even more. Especially when it has almost no tangiable benefits.
- Secondary market prices are of no concern whatsoever to the legit player. It's neither desirable nor not desirable for the adena prices in dollars to raise, it's totally irrelevant. I don't know why you even bring up this point.
Actually its very important in a competitive game. The more value it has, the more incentive there is to get it or cheat for it.
- "Regular player botting on the side" are a problem with or without stronger anti-e-baying measures, and are dealt with (or not dealt with, depending on your outlook) appropriately already. This problem doesn't get any worse when some adena buyers disappear together with their illicit gains.
I see no reason to increase it and eventually dwindling the playerbase even more.
- What are those "large alliance adena sales" you're speaking about?
Large alliances makes lots of money from castles, raidbosses, crystals, etc. then sells the adena for RL cash. Its uncommon these days because adena prices are low.
Buying adena for your clan or alliance happens and I personally feel not enough is being done about it
So ok, we do this...what, we'll have 2-3 clans left per server? (and no, I am not even kidding about this) Thats not a terribly good way to continue the game.
While I for a long time advocated something to be done, the ball has simply been dropped for too long now, I see very few benefits vs. a heck of alot of drawbacks at this point.
Anything that increases incentives for bad play and makes the game worse overall does give us something to lose.
Making sure those who cheat gets punished more often and harder is an incentive for "bad play" ... how exactly?
If anything, it's an incentive to play by the rules, or only cheat a little bit so as to not get caught.
Even worse, unless you retroactively take out those who cheated in the past to gain solid positions, it only rewards them even more. Especially when it has almost no tangiable benefits.
You're advocating letting criminals - and in the context of the game, they're just that - get free, just because others got free in the past?
That's not a country I'd like to live in, and that's equally not a game I'd play. Thankfully, buying adena in the game is still a punishable offence no matter how many scumbags got away with it in the past - and I like it that way.
- Secondary market prices are of no concern whatsoever to the legit player. It's neither desirable nor not desirable for the adena prices in dollars to raise, it's totally irrelevant. I don't know why you even bring up this point.
Actually its very important in a competitive game. The more value it has, the more incentive there is to get it or cheat for it.
... and the higher chances are there to get caught and removed from the game, while at the same time less adena gets bought since it's so expensive.
Sounds good to me.
I see no reason to increase it and eventually dwindling the playerbase even more.
So ok, we do this...what, we'll have 2-3 clans left per server? (and no, I am not even kidding about this) Thats not a terribly good way to continue the game.
Cheaters are players I can live without. Hang 'em higher, I say! And if it takes a ***** and Gomorra to cleanse the servers of that filth, I'm all for it.
While I for a long time advocated something to be done, the ball has simply been dropped for too long now, I see very few benefits vs. a heck of alot of drawbacks at this point.
Basically, you've given up.
Just like the cheaters would like all of us to do.
Why? You (not you LordChaos666 specifically, but any "you") don't have anything to lose unless you're using the secondary market yourself.
Anything that increases incentives for bad play and makes the game worse overall does give us something to lose.
It's not that buying adena is good play, though.
Even worse, unless you retroactively take out those who cheated in the past to gain solid positions, it only rewards them even more.
It's not that they don't continue to cheat now. If we hurt illegit money transfers, we will give more power to legit means of making wealth in the game, hurting the cheaters and diluting their cheated assets. Isn't it a good thing?
- Secondary market prices are of no concern whatsoever to the legit player. It's neither desirable nor not desirable for the adena prices in dollars to raise, it's totally irrelevant. I don't know why you even bring up this point.
Actually its very important in a competitive game. The more value it has, the more incentive there is to get it or cheat for it.
It has the same ingame value as before. Maybe even becomes cheaper. If we are legit, why should it hurt us?
- "Regular player botting on the side" are a problem with or without stronger anti-e-baying measures, and are dealt with (or not dealt with, depending on your outlook) appropriately already. This problem doesn't get any worse when some adena buyers disappear together with their illicit gains.
I see no reason to increase it and eventually dwindling the playerbase even more.
I see no problem if playerbase start playing actual Lineage 2 instead of RL money soaking shooter. It's quite rich and interesting game, after all.
- What are those "large alliance adena sales" you're speaking about?
Large alliances makes lots of money from castles, raidbosses, crystals, etc. then sells the adena for RL cash. Its uncommon these days because adena prices are low.
It's less bad for the game when these clans are selling adena compared to when these clans are buying adena.
Buying adena for your clan or alliance happens and I personally feel not enough is being done about it
So ok, we do this...what, we'll have 2-3 clans left per server? (and no, I am not even kidding about this) Thats not a terribly good way to continue the game.
Even if it were true... creating a new clan is not a big deal anyway.
1) I can appreciate the concern that legit players may have. There can often be legit reaons for large sum adena transfers. For example, we do some item selling on untagged alts so as to avoid political issues and keep our financial status private. Profits from these toons which are low level are passed on to tagged players to be added to the clan warehouse or to purchase crystals, spirit ore, crafting materials and the like.
It is a perfectly reasonable question to ask if there is a change to the EULA so that legit, law-abiding players aren't doing something that unbeknownst to them, has recently become a bannable offense.
2) That said, it is good to see NCS doing something about the "bad players" we see on our petition screens. I would never accuse anyone of doing anything untoward, but there does seem to be a bit of... desperation?.. in some of the posts, but I'll chalk it up to my first point.
That said, I don't think NCS should just turn a blind eye. The adena farmers create inflation, which helps to drive the prices of mats and gear upward. If there are less adenas on the server, the value of each adena is justifiably increased. Remember, Adena's aren't used as a material in any craft. If the mats/items market remains somewhat constant and the number of adenas on the server with which to buy those mats diminishes, items at currentr costs won't be able to move, thus prices lower.
But whatever.
If NCS has a way of PROVING that a player willfully and knowingly obtained adena via EULA violation, they should be taking the necessary steps.
I would like to say that too, but its really hard for me to judge the vast vast majority of players as "bad play", even if I do not at all agree with it and do not participate in it.
It's not that they don't continue to cheat now. If we hurt illegit money transfers, we will give more power to legit means of making wealth in the game, hurting the cheaters and diluting their cheated assets. Isn't it a good thing?
Increasing their value doesn't dilute their assets, just take a look at Franz...mass bannings, lots of Adena sellers taken out, Adena at thousands of dollars, yet it still made more than enough money to make it profitable to totally infest Franz.
It has the same ingame value as before. Maybe even becomes cheaper. If we are legit, why should it hurt us?
That wasn't quite my point, though I do agree with you. Some lower end items would drop a little in value. Higher end value items wouldn't because cheated gold and powerplaying has already created a top in the game with more than enough money to buy anything at redicilously high prices. Which in turn would nullify the saved money for the lower level gear, because the higher level gear would be a little harder to get.
I see no problem if playerbase start playing actual Lineage 2 instead of RL money soaking shooter.
Regardless of how you turn it, its utterly unrealistic to think this makes the problem go away. So we would have so low server populations that there would be almost noone to play with, nothing happening, basically the game dying.
I was all in favor of it some time ago, heck, even a huge advocate of it, but at this point its just too late, its been allowed to run for too long. Games aren't like real life, you can't leave real life, things adapt.
It's less bad for the game when these clans are selling adena compared to when these clans are buying adena.
Actually as long as there's sellers there will always be buyers, there would be little way to prove that a transaction of that nature wouldn't be legal. (other than blanket banning where you'd get alot of innocent players too) And the alliances/clans that generate the money are usually doing more harm than anything else.
Even if it were true... creating a new clan is not a big deal anyway.
I doubt it would simply stop with a disbanding of a clan, or it wouldn't be an incentive to stop.
Besides, lets say we do punish clans, then all one would have to do is to make a new account (or take a discarded one), join a clan, act like you're ebaying, report yourself and viola.
Ok all, I see so many posts with the /signed on it. I assume this is ment so signify your support of a petition to NCSOFT to fix the farmer/bot problem. Here they are actually doing something about it and the wines start. Either you want the problem fixed or you don't.
In truth its pretty easy to tell legit trades verses bought gold. All you need to do is look for the guy who in multiple times in a day or over several days buys a stem/arrow/coal piece etc for 50 million Adena. Then you go after everyone he bought from.
Maybe you will get a legit play by mistake but I doubt it. Either way I am willing to take the small risk that I might get flagged incorrectly then do nothing about this problem.
Ok all, I see so many posts with the /signed on it. I assume this is ment so signify your support of a petition to NCSOFT to fix the farmer/bot problem.
What is funny (and not terribly surprising) is that a lot of the /signed people are botters; admittedly so.
- Secondary market prices are of no concern whatsoever to the legit player. It's neither desirable nor not desirable for the adena prices in dollars to raise, it's totally irrelevant. I don't know why you even bring up this point.
Sorry but this is wrong.When outgame adena prices go down all item/mats prices ingame go up.Farmers dont want to loose money.
Well, the line cannot be buying items from "suspicious people" or the trade itself would be suspicious.
Besides, the EULA varies by territory... in Korea, Japan, and China, if I am not mistaken, NCSoft offers items to players for aditional cash on their account billing... (not 100% sure of this sinse my Korean is a bit rusty, but that is what the site looked like it was advertising...)
and if NCSoft can place a +4 Damascus*Damascus in your warehouse for an additional 15.99$ on your statement, how is that less suspicious fomr someone who had no money one day and had a full set of top gear and millions of adena the next...
I would like to know how they plan on approaching this sinse in one way or another, it affects everyones (those silly fools who ebay and those of us who don't...).
Sorry but this is wrong.When outgame adena prices go down all item/mats prices ingame go up.Farmers dont want to loose money.
Farmers might try to influence the market, but they don't control it. If they did, the prices for the materials would be always high. And players have the possibility to just ignore them, too. You have the same spoil skill them do, and you can use the same manor (... and don't tell me you can't beat them to the buyback, because I do it nearly every time I try).
They only control the market if you let them. Of course, ignoring them requires actual work, and many are just too lazy ...
I would like to say that too, but its really hard for me to judge the vast vast majority of players as "bad play", even if I do not at all agree with it and do not participate in it.
I wouldn't judge the players, but I still can judde their actions. What they do is bad for the game, bad for themselves, and they are better to stop cheating. Which we should help them to achieve.
It's not that they don't continue to cheat now. If we hurt illegit money transfers, we will give more power to legit means of making wealth in the game, hurting the cheaters and diluting their cheated assets. Isn't it a good thing?
Increasing their value doesn't dilute their assets, just take a look at Franz...mass bannings, lots of Adena sellers taken out, Adena at thousands of dollars, yet it still made more than enough money to make it profitable to totally infest Franz.
We were speaking about adena buyers.
It has the same ingame value as before. Maybe even becomes cheaper. If we are legit, why should it hurt us?
That wasn't quite my point, though I do agree with you. Some lower end items would drop a little in value. Higher end value items wouldn't because cheated gold and powerplaying has already created a top in the game with more than enough money to buy anything at redicilously high prices. Which in turn would nullify the saved money for the lower level gear, because the higher level gear would be a little harder to get.
After the top players burn their ebayed money on CP pots?
The main problem for petty cheaters is not "top players" anyway. It's a buddy from their friendlist that levels faster than them, because he ebays. Then comes XP grind instead of efforts to actually play midlevel Lineage in the way that could provide higher level gear in about time.
I see no problem if playerbase start playing actual Lineage 2 instead of RL money soaking shooter.
Regardless of how you turn it, its utterly unrealistic to think this makes the problem go away. So we would have so low server populations that there would be almost noone to play with, nothing happening, basically the game dying.
I don't see why you think noone will play true Lineage 2. Well, I don't even see why anyone would quit, unless being banned.
It's less bad for the game when these clans are selling adena compared to when these clans are buying adena.
Actually as long as there's sellers there will always be buyers, there would be little way to prove that a transaction of that nature wouldn't be legal. (other than blanket banning where you'd get alot of innocent players too) And the alliances/clans that generate the money are usually doing more harm than anything else.
The clan that sells ingame resources out-of-game to ingame competitors becomes weaker ingame.
Even if it were true... creating a new clan is not a big deal anyway.
I doubt it would simply stop with a disbanding of a clan, or it wouldn't be an incentive to stop.
Besides, lets say we do punish clans, then all one would have to do is to make a new account (or take a discarded one), join a clan, act like you're ebaying, report yourself and viola.
I have never said that fixing Lineage 2 problems is easy, just the opposite. But I am saying that it can be done.
One decent mass banning, followed up by a few here and there would be enough to change the attitude of the player base that NCSoft doesn't care, and that you can do as you wish without penalty.
Make some examples of people and the problem will quickly diminish. No need to hammer an entire server.
As for innocent people getting caught by this, I see it as very unlikely. I seriously doubt that they just scan for large transactions and swing the banhammer. My guess is that they are following the money trail from the actual farmer party on back to the end user.
As I said before. Don't ebay, you won't get banned. If you are mistakenly banned, there is an appeals process that has been proven to work.
A point... the main reason NCSoft allows so much freedom in game is becouse the probably expect players to go for what they want... and get it themselves...
this applies meta-game as well... just as you might decide that you want a specific weapon and hunt the right mobs and gather the mats and craft it... you have to go after the other things as well; you want few bots, fight them... not pvping, but don't let them exp in the catas and necros... start being more forceful... petition a GM EVERY TIME you see a bot... if thousands of players across the servers took action against the bots than they WILL start to dispate... and the GMs want the players to enjoy the product... that keeps them in bussiness... remember guys, the GMs are on our side...
I am suspicious of the new policy change if it is true only becouse it is a very blurred line... some specifics would be nice on what the official policy is now.
Everyone wants the very best; top armor, top weapons, jewels, ect... no one can blame them... but it is always clear who has earned it and who has acquired them as ill-gotten-gains... only we as the players can shape Lineage II to be what it should be... stop buying the top stuff and go out and friggen earn it... it is SO much more respectable to go out and earm what you have than buy it from an automated program that hunts it for you...
for example if someone sells stem for 5kk - ebayer :) thats is the reason to ban :) lol not because scam or anything else. Or if you can prove that you sold it to your friend, not to adena seller they will surely unban your account.
One decent mass banning, followed up by a few here and there would be enough to change the attitude of the player base that NCSoft doesn't care, and that you can do as you wish without penalty.
You mean like it happened with certain arhemm players? We still have people going NCSoft don't care and reviews going "omg, infested" after how many mass bannings?
for example if someone sells stem for 5kk - ebayer :) thats is the reason to ban :) lol not because scam or anything else. Or if you can prove that you sold it to your friend, not to adena seller they will surely unban your account.
Read what Spam just said. They won't ban for this.
my question to the GM team is why is it legal to buy/ sell items from NCSoft directly in Korea/Japan but not here? If so, will that ever filter over here? Or rather, why did it not already filter over here? Some sort of territorial inconsistancy?
BTW if I am wrong and misread the site, and you can't buy items from NCSoft in Korea/Japan... feel free to just tell me to shut up, I will try, but no promises :eek: