This group in particular was downloading our version of the Lineage II software from our servers, costing us close to a million dollars in realized bandwidth costs during the period it was operational.
Makes clear why the lineage ftp server was always full 24/7 and why they made the move to fileplanet.
Ah haha sweet. Way to go guys. I hope some of the population finally starts to carry over here. You guys are doing a wonderful job improving the game at this point in time. Keep it up
Im just curious as to why this wasn't done back in C1 when the server files were originally stolen and again when the C4 server files were stolen? Now it's gotten to a point that even if L2X is closed there are sooooo many more servers to take it's place it makes no difference in the world if only 1 is shut down.
Maybe this will pave the way for the rest to be shut down but im willing to bet that it wont.
Sorry for the delay in official confirmation. We didn't want to step on the FBI's toes. :cool:
Yeah, I understand they have guns. :)
Nice job. I'm sure this will lead to other sites closing down. Of course, it is sort of like a many headed hydra. Cut off one head and several more will appear. Still, the fines are stiff and jail time is nothing to laugh at.
I'm all for prosecuting them to the fullest extant of the law. :mad:
Perhaps your complaint should go towards the FBI's speed at law enforcement rather then to NCSoft? Of course, perhaps the FBI also had other things to deal with after 9/11 so this wasn't their top priority?
Perhaps your complaint should go towards the FBI's speed at law enforcement rather then to NCSoft? Of course, perhaps the FBI also had other things to deal with after 9/11 so this wasn't their top priority?
Everyone says that, but, they are completely diffrent departments i would imagine.
On the plus side, because the C4 official server files were stolen we could actually find out how every single C4 skill works instead of a stupid description like:
"The spirits of ancient heroes temporarily possess one's party members. Consumes 40 spirit ores." (This is for Chant of Victory)
I was gonna paste in the actual code that the server uses in the skill but i thought best of it lol. But it basicly says what the skill does to increase and decrease stats (did u know CoV makes u more vulnerable to de buffs :P), that it's range is 1000, if it can be used on a stryder, how many people it buffs at once, if you have to target someone to buff it ect.
It pains me to think that NC will never actually release this info and give a dodgy explanation like the one above :/ I was sent the skill list by a friend, i didn't steal em or anything before anyone asks :S
Its the same department that also deals with child pornography and online child abuse, I doubt they'd downprioritize them to go after a breach of IP. They probably did it when they could. Would have been nice if these things could have been done a long time ago, but the world just isn't perfect like that.
Im just curious as to why this wasn't done back in C1 when the server files were originally stolen and again when the C4 server files were stolen? Now it's gotten to a point that even if L2X is closed there are sooooo many more servers to take it's place it makes no difference in the world if only 1 is shut down.
Maybe this will pave the way for the rest to be shut down but im willing to bet that it wont.
Profits I imagine. Read the first paragraph.
successfully closed down a computer game operation alleged to be reaping profits by providing
It would take considerable time to collect the needed data to take this to court incase the accused insist on innocence.
So basicly, if a private server is making profits they can shut it down but if the private server takes money to keep the server running they can't be shut down. This is basicly saying there is nothing NC can do to private servers untill they start to make money. lol, how dumb
This does not seem to go far enough. There should be fines for the customers. Say $100 for every month of play. The truth is that the customers are just as guilty.
This is not just an L2 issue, it is an interlectual property issue. It is also a very serious social issue when the people in our society no longer respect the hard work of others, because they can steal it with no consequence.
Sorry for the delay in official confirmation. We didn't want to step on the FBI's toes. :cool:
Yeah - plus there are several Canadian illegal servers - those should represent no problem with shutting down and taking their operators to the justice! (Do you hear me Aoshi?)
or people who re-write the stolen server code and implement it into illegal server software and distribute it to other servers for profit (Do you hear me, Elayhim?).
FBI do greatly co-op with Canadian authorities - an example - a recent bust of satellite black market and media (dvd, cd) busts.
All under the Copyright infringement (or copyright violation) law.
Way to go NCSoft... Lets get all those roaches who purposely hurts our servers so they could profit from it. Look up to the North border as well.
So basicly, if a private server is making profits they can shut it down but if the private server takes money to keep the server running they can't be shut down. This is basicly saying there is nothing NC can do to private servers untill they start to make money. lol, how dumb
Well I'm guessing here, copyright laws are hard to follow and constantly changing, but it's far easier to fine and/or jail someone when money is involved.
I mean what's the FBI gonna do, throw the whole country in jail for 5 years? Doubt there's a person around that hasn't made some sort of copyright violation.
This is not just an L2 issue, it is an interlectual property issue. It is also a very serious social issue when the people in our society no longer respect the hard work of others, because they can steal it with no consequence.
This is so true, and I do agree that the users should be punished in some way.
This does not seem to go far enough. There should be fines for the customers. Say $100 for every month of play. The truth is that the customers are just as guilty.
This is not just an L2 issue, it is an interlectual property issue. It is also a very serious social issue when the people in our society no longer respect the hard work of others, because they can steal it with no consequence.
im sure if there was a risk of a $1000 fine for hosting any sort of server that can interact with the lineage 2 client that is un authorised then im sure it would put most of the people off. I dont know what the american laws on this issue are.
im sure if there was a risk of a $1000 fine for hosting any sort of server that can interact with the lineage 2 client that is un authorised then im sure it would put most of the people off. I dont know what the american laws on this issue are.
im sure if there was a risk of a $1000 fine for hosting any sort of server that can interact with the lineage 2 client that is un authorised then im sure it would put most of the people off. I dont know what the american laws on this issue are.
There is no need to put a whole country to the jail - just the server operators ;) It will create a causus which will make new potential operators of illegal servers chance to think if it is worth to so do - the best way to combat the crime ;)
Of couse - it is clear - even if server operators collects the donations only to cover the operational cost - it is still a profit as they personally profitted by gaining free access to internet for their server, free computer hardware (bought with donation money), free hosting etc etc...
Donations based server is not a lesser guild at all! Unfortunately, there are lots of them in US/Canada - but fortunately only very few get the largest share. Keep on the fight, NCSoft.... Don't forget about Canadian illegal servers - their operators laugh at you in opinion that they are invicible - prove them wrong ;)
I want more people on our servers so we can see more updates coming!
Well I'm guessing here, copyright laws are hard to follow and constantly changing, but it's far easier to fine and/or jail someone when money is involved.
I mean what's the FBI gonna do, throw the whole country in jail for 5 years? Doubt there's a person around that hasn't made some sort of copyright violation.
All that needs to happen is that Schmee gets a nice lil jail cell partner for a while.
Like I said in the other thread, I seriously doubt any of them will see the inside of a prison. Just doesn't happen too often in white-collar (first offense) crimes. Tons of fines, tons of legal fees (guilty or innocent), confiscation of equipment.
Very true and it really boils my blood seeing announcements like quoted below posted on illegal Canadian servers:
They all should be shut down as soon as possible before the C5 'update' spreads out.
QUOTE:
"After the closing of two of the biggest private L2 server communities, we are sure a lot of players will come here looking for a new server to call home. We are sorry for your loss, but we hope you will continue to play Lineage II and consider us as a new home. We're famous for having a close-knit community that really gets along. xxxxxx xxxxxx has a track record of being stable, corruption-free, and ran by our beloved xxxx for over 2 years now. We hope you will join xxxxx to play Lineage II C4"
"What About Chronicle 5?
xxxxxx, our official C4 server, has had a lot of work going on behind the scenes. My development team and I, a worldwide group of friends who develop for Lineage II private servers, have been working hard on creating a C5 update that only two servers are planned to recieve. xxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxxxx is one of them. Since there has been no official news update on it, let me explain the timeframe for C5, and what you can expect.
When will we get it?
In another 4-6 weeks xxxxxxx is expected to be upgraded to C5, along with the C5 client."
END OF QUOTE
NCSoft and FBI should rush up with Canadian authorities to stop it ASAP.
All that needs to happen is that Schmee gets a nice lil jail cell partner for a while.
You dont need to attack the other GM's of the server, just the main one.
Just a few points of clarification, as we’ve seen some recurring questions and subsequently inaccurate statements, both here and within other communities. We will continue to police our intellectual properties and we are already in process of investigating additional servers/services that violate our intellectual property rights. NCSoft has never officially released our Lineage II server code, Chronicle 1 or otherwise. While we cannot comment on the ongoing investigation, any use of Lineage II code outside of the official Lineage II service offered by NCsoft or its affiliates or partners is strictly prohibited. This includes “free” servers/services.
Just so everybody knows, only servers like l2extreme can be taken down. The servers that use the stolen code.
Most of the private servers use a server that was written from scratch. Sadly, this means that those servers are not infringing on copyright legally (because something is similar to another product, or it can work in conjunction with it, does not a derivative work make. Otherwise, xwindows would sue Microsoft, or Apple would sue all the Apple Ipod Accessories manufacturers.)
Therefore, anybody can make a private server legally. Now playing on it is a different bird altogether. If you have purchased the game legally, you have a license, which is revoked when you play on a private server. Nothing else can come from this if you do not use the private server again because you used a validly licensed copy of Lineage 2. You would, in a legal sense, have to buy a new license every time you play on the private server to be legally indemnified. If you haven't purchased said license (or additional licenses after your license expired), and you played on a private server you can be charged with "Theft of Service" for the bandwidth fees for downloading it from the official L2 website as it was downloaded in good faith that you had a right to download it. I don't know if this applies any longer due to fileplanet. You would also be considered guilty of software piracy because, again, you're using it without a valid license.
In conclusion, as long as the server is written from scratch, NCSoft really can't do anything about the server itself. Which saddens me... :(
Just so everybody knows, only servers like l2extreme can be taken down. The servers that use the stolen code.
Most of the private servers use a server that was written from scratch. Sadly, this means that those servers are not infringing on copyright legally (because something is similar to another product, or it can work in conjunction with it, does not a derivative work make. Otherwise, xwindows would sue Microsoft, or Apple would sue all the Apple Ipod Accessories manufacturers.)
Therefore, anybody can make a private server legally. Now playing on it is a different bird altogether. If you have purchased the game legally, you have a license, which is revoked when you play on a private server. Nothing else can come from this if you do not use the private server again because you used a validly licensed copy of Lineage 2. You would, in a legal sense, have to buy a new license every time you play on the private server to be legally indemnified. If you haven't purchased said license (or additional licenses after your license expired), and you played on a private server you can be charged with "Theft of Service" for the bandwidth fees for downloading it from the official L2 website as it was downloaded in good faith that you had a right to download it. I don't know if this applies any longer due to fileplanet. You would also be considered guilty of software piracy because, again, you're using it without a valid license.
In conclusion, as long as the server is written from scratch, NCSoft really can't do anything about the server itself. Which saddens me... :(
I don't think that is exactly true as those private servers are using the artistic content, story, etc of NC Soft and its developers.
So though the server info might be different I still think they are breaching copyright by using the intellectual property of NC Soft.
An example would be if someone were to create their own type of music player that uses their own type of music file and record all of sting's songs to include in the player.
The music is still owned by someone even if the player and file format is made by someone else.
I don't think that is exactly true as those private servers are using the artistic content, story, etc of NC Soft and its developers.
So though the server info might be different I still think they are breaching copyright by using the intellectual property of NC Soft.
An example would be if someone were to create their own type of music player that uses their own type of music file and record all of sting's songs to include in the player.
The music is still owned by someone even if the player and file format is made by someone else.
The music is still Lineage 2.
At least if I am understanding you correctly.
That would actually be a different instance.
what you're referring to would require:
An exact copy of the copyrighted item in question (a rip from one format to the other, a copy of the original code, or a conversion of it. If it's designed to act like another program yet in a different way, it's excluded in the copyright law)
Or an attempt to imply that your the official representative of the copyright you're trying to imply.
Since the server is created by scratch, not by comparing code or converting it, and since they advertise that they're private servers and unofficial, both cases wouldn't apply in this manner.
who cares, this is a tiny dent...go go take down all 1000+ of the other servers maybe?
What might happen is that some of those servers will cease their activities if they know that the FBI is getting involved. Not all of course, but some.
o, and as mistryl claims that these servers are taking millions of dollars away from NCSoft a year? TOTALLY WRONG! people play these servers, not because they cant afford $15 a month, but because they are tired of how NCSoft runs their servers and their services...so i highly doubt that shutting down these servers is going to attract any business to real servers
Well look at it this way guys:
I dont know why people are hating on private server so much, as it doesnt really harm YOU as a player (you could always use the old 'but thers less players on official' argument). From my experience the majority of the people who play on private server are from 3rd world countries, thus they cannot, even if they wanted to, afford to play on official. Then there are people who dont have the time to deal with the tremendous grind (and dont give me the 'the grind is what L2 is about' argument either, because L2 is about PvP), so they play on accelerated rate private server. My friend being one of them, having 2 jobs and a kid to take care of is enough work, so finding some time to enjoy a game is hard enough. For alot people private servers is the only way to play the game (and enjoy it).
I dont know why people are hating on private server so much, as it doesnt really harm YOU as a player
When you become an adult you realize that, just because some injustice doesn't directly affect you, it is still wrong. See, why would you care that your neighbor's house was broken into? They didn't steal your stuff, after all.
Theft is wrong. Using stolen property is wrong. Every player that might have paid to play official servers does indeed affect us.
I dont know why people are hating on private server so much, as it doesnt really harm YOU as a player
When you become an adult you realize that, just because some injustice doesn't directly affect you, it is still wrong. See, why would you care that your neighbor's house was broken into? They didn't steal your stuff, after all.
Theft is wrong. Using stolen property is wrong. Every player that might have paid to play official servers does indeed affect us.
i feel private servers were just doing us good things. most people who play private servers are lazy ******bags, so in reality 9/10 of them (if they played retail) would have just botted up anyways...who needs more bots?
I dont know why people are hating on private server so much, as it doesnt really harm YOU as a player
When you become an adult you realize that, just because some injustice doesn't directly affect you, it is still wrong. See, why would you care that your neighbor's house was broken into? They didn't steal your stuff, after all.
Theft is wrong. Using stolen property is wrong. Every player that might have paid to play official servers does indeed affect us.
i feel private servers were just doing us good things. most people who play private servers are lazy ******bags, so in reality 9/10 of them (if they played retail) would have just botted up anyways...who needs more bots?
They get banned, NCSoft makes money. That's all good for us.
I dont know why people are hating on private server so much, as it doesnt really harm YOU as a player
When you become an adult you realize that, just because some injustice doesn't directly affect you, it is still wrong. See, why would you care that your neighbor's house was broken into? They didn't steal your stuff, after all.
Theft is wrong. Using stolen property is wrong. Every player that might have paid to play official servers does indeed affect us.
I have seen enough injustice on the part of adults to know that reaching a certain age, or maturity, doesnt make you a better person
Now of you could just answer the rest of my argument (and my main point) ..
as it doesnt really harm YOU as a player (you could always use the old 'but thers less players on official' argument). From my experience the majority of the people who play on private server are from 3rd world countries, thus they cannot, even if they wanted to, afford to play on official. Then there are people who dont have the time to deal with the tremendous grind (and dont give me the 'the grind is what L2 is about' argument either, because L2 is about PvP), so they play on accelerated rate private server. My friend being one of them, having 2 jobs and a kid to take care of is enough work, so finding some time to enjoy a game is hard enough. For alot people private servers is the only way to play the game (and enjoy it).
Well look at it this way guys:
I dont know why people are hating on private server so much, as it doesnt really harm YOU as a player (you could always use the old 'but thers less players on official' argument). From my experience the majority of the people who play on private server are from 3rd world countries, thus they cannot, even if they wanted to, afford to play on official. Then there are people who dont have the time to deal with the tremendous grind (and dont give me the 'the grind is what L2 is about' argument either, because L2 is about PvP), so they play on accelerated rate private server. My friend being one of them, having 2 jobs and a kid to take care of is enough work, so finding some time to enjoy a game is hard enough. For alot people private servers is the only way to play the game (and enjoy it).
Hmmm, I'm not sure I can accept that argument about people in 3rd world countries because how are they paying for the computer, the game, the internet service (as Nos also points out).
As far as not being able to afford the time it takes to play this game, that is a very legit reason to lobby the game maker to create alternate rules servers.
But that is not an excuse for stealing. I just don't believe in stealing. Sorry. I bet that any of the players on these private servers would be the first to yell and scream if they found out that the fruits of their labor were being used by others and they were not being compensated.
Hmmm, I'm not sure I can accept that argument about people in 3rd world countries because how are they paying for the computer, the game, the internet service (as Nos also points out).
Mind you, it may be a poor country but there is still enterprise there, and computers are not as expensive as they are here in more developed countries (You can get a relatively good model for under $100)
Financial struggles and a lack free time do not make someone exempt from following the law, or supporting an organization that breaks the law. If you can afford high speed internet, I think you can pony up for monthly fees.
Hmmm, I'm not sure I can accept that argument about people in 3rd world countries because how are they paying for the computer, the game, the internet service (as Nos also points out).
Mind you, it may be a poor country but there is still enterprise there, and computers are not as expensive as they are here in more developed countries (You can get a relatively good model for under $100)
Well, that's fair enough, but still, they need to pay for internet connectivity and even the game. Though it is possible that the payment model might be different in those countries.
It still does not excuse stealing.
To give an example. I live in the U.S. a reasonably well off country (with our own problems of course) and there are many things that I would like to be doing that I can't always do because I can't always afford it (eating out every night, going to Theater EVERY weekend, etc) but that doesn't mean I have the right to circumvent paying for these activities.
People make video games, make music, movies, books, clothing, computers, etc because in the end they would like to make a living at these activities. To some extent it makes sense to turn a blind eye (like the up and coming band who doesn't mind if their music is shared because it will reach more people) but in the end most of these people want to be paid because they would rather spend their time making more games, movies, music, books, clothing etc.
If they don't care if they are paid then great. What a boon to society. But that should be their choice. Not the choice of someone who essentially finds their own reasons to circumvent payment.
I dont know why people are hating on private server so much, as it doesnt really harm YOU as a player
When you become an adult you realize that, just because some injustice doesn't directly affect you, it is still wrong. See, why would you care that your neighbor's house was broken into? They didn't steal your stuff, after all.
Theft is wrong. Using stolen property is wrong. Every player that might have paid to play official servers does indeed affect us.
I have seen enough injustice on the part of adults to know that reaching a certain age, or maturity, doesnt make you a better person
Now of you could just answer the rest of my argument (and my main point) ..
as it doesnt really harm YOU as a player (you could always use the old 'but thers less players on official' argument). From my experience the majority of the people who play on private server are from 3rd world countries, thus they cannot, even if they wanted to, afford to play on official. Then there are people who dont have the time to deal with the tremendous grind (and dont give me the 'the grind is what L2 is about' argument either, because L2 is about PvP), so they play on accelerated rate private server. My friend being one of them, having 2 jobs and a kid to take care of is enough work, so finding some time to enjoy a game is hard enough. For alot people private servers is the only way to play the game (and enjoy it).
If you cannot afford the game, don't play.
If you don't like the rules of the Official Servers, don't play.
I dont know why people are hating on private server so much, as it doesnt really harm YOU as a player
When you become an adult you realize that, just because some injustice doesn't directly affect you, it is still wrong. See, why would you care that your neighbor's house was broken into? They didn't steal your stuff, after all.
Theft is wrong. Using stolen property is wrong. Every player that might have paid to play official servers does indeed affect us.
Maybe the forum is faulty, because this is what I see.
It's not the forum, it's a moronic reader. Here's the full quote to which I was responding:
I have seen enough injustice on the part of adults to know that reaching a certain age, or maturity, doesnt make you a better person
Now of you could just answer the rest of my argument (and my main point) ..
Quote:
as it doesnt really harm YOU as a player (you could always use the old 'but thers less players on official' argument). From my experience the majority of the people who play on private server are from 3rd world countries, thus they cannot, even if they wanted to, afford to play on official. Then there are people who dont have the time to deal with the tremendous grind (and dont give me the 'the grind is what L2 is about' argument either, because L2 is about PvP), so they play on accelerated rate private server. My friend being one of them, having 2 jobs and a kid to take care of is enough work, so finding some time to enjoy a game is hard enough. For alot people private servers is the only way to play the game (and enjoy it).
If you cannot afford the game, don't play.
If you don't like the rules of the Official Servers, don't play.
Sovrath, first i just want you to know that i don't play private servers, but i have been reading about them. (web sites, forums etc.)
To answer your question about 3rd world and computers: They go to internet cafes to play the game.
That's good to know and kind of what I expected.
And I'm not a really big believer in finger pointing or feeling that people who play on private servers are lesser human beings.
Quite frankly there are greater crimes out there.
But it isn't right or fair or legal for any company or group of individuals to have others use their property (intellectual or otherwise) without compensation. Not saying that you would argue this but just reiterating my point.
Ok...so they got a private server...gratz...so they ban a few bots selectively here and there...big whoop...It's kind of like leaf blowing leaves away from your house when you have 200mph winds coming towards you...(fun for awhile but..it kind of gets old) ;) Of course it does make me(and probably the other legit players out there) feel better for the time being. Long-term however those people that played on private servers will still refuse to pay for the game either by quitting, starting their own servers, or going to other servers. That feeling of glory for shutting down a priv. server will eventually fade and people will wonder when the next one will go down...or when the whole dwarven village will get banned for using 3rd party programs. :eek:
Seriously do some of you wallow in your own filth day in and day out? Why take a shower, I'll only get dirty again. Why clean the dishes, I'll only need to eat on them again in a few hours.. etc etc. Good god.
And having a job (like I do), and not a lot of time to play (like me) does not excuse you from stealing. If you can't afford it, don't have the time, don't play.
Theft is wrong. Using stolen property is wrong. Every player that might have paid to play official servers does indeed affect us.
Don't change the subject. Theft ("unauthorised taking, keeping or using of another's property which must be accompanied by a mens rea of dishonesty and/or the intent to permanently deprive the owner or the person with rightful possession of that property or its use", as defined by the US law) isn't the same as what happened here. NCSoft wasn't deprived of their property or its use in any way.
"Copyright infringement", what it instead was, is something completely different. Among other things, it isn't a criminal act (theft is), unless it is accompanied by other circumstances, like trying to earn money with the unauthorized copy.
The feeling that I have, while your statement could be true, that this is just the beginning. That NCSoft will continue to strive to improve their customer service, GM response, third-party program control and also stop those that abuse their software or in the very least drive them underground. This is something that I had never seen happen before and I think that it most likely will be a change overall. It shows that you cannot use the code that does not belong to you, without permission of the person/company who owns it and if you do, there will be consequences and there will be someone who is watching. While we can site that Microsoft has sued for copyright infringement, or Symantec for that case, this is more specific into the realm of games.
As a soon to be software engineer, who is already starting to code his own full fledged programs that actually DO something and has full interactivity, it is something that makes me extremely happy that those who try to rip off software companies and fellow programmers will be dealt with properly. When you put your heart, soul and time into a program, it (to the programmer because everything in life is about perspective) is just as amazing as a classical painting or concerto.
Maybe I'm an idealist, but this could possibly be a U-turn for many things.
Theft is wrong. Using stolen property is wrong. Every player that might have paid to play official servers does indeed affect us.
Don't change the subject. Theft ("unauthorised taking, keeping or using of another's property which must be accompanied by a mens rea of dishonesty and/or the intent to permanently deprive the owner or the person with rightful possession of that property or its use", as defined by the US law) isn't the same as what happened here. NCSoft wasn't deprived of their property or its use in any way.
"Copyright infringement", what it instead was, is something completely different. Among other things, it isn't a criminal act (theft is), unless it is accompanied by other circumstances, like trying to earn money with the unauthorized copy.
Well, I guess it's okay then. Load up them private servers, people!
This talk of not stealing NCSoft property is garbage. Let's break this down for everyone.
How do MMOs make money?
Most, if not all (any P2P MMORPGs out there?), MMORPG are based on the client/server model, where each user has a client that talks to a centralized server. The client programs are either sold for a one-time fee or given away. The business model is based on charging subscriptions for the client programs to have access to the server.
Still with me?
Why is it called stealing, theft, or even copyright infringement?
The issue of rogue servers arises when hackers reverse-engineer or obtain by other means the server software and begin running their own servers.
They steal NCSoft property and it doesn't matter if they're making money or not. The whole Donations thing is for a judge to decide. They still stole NCSoft's server software through illegal means. Nobody here, on this forum or any private server forum, is going to be able to brain storm a way to beat the FBI and NCSoft's legal team's decision that, yes, private servers are illegal.
Ok. You're all right. 1 PvP score for you. Now keep on banning bots, or don't complain soon if you'll experience another low-interrest in game issue. Being unable to get any d-grade before 40, while fighting with the bots for a quest monster, really makes me angry!
They steal NCSoft property and it doesn't matter if they're making money or not.
No, they're not. If they would steal NCSoft's property, NCSoft wouldn't have acces to it. Instead, they're infringe on NCSoft's copyrights as well trademarks, potentially reducing NCSoft's profits in the process.
It's still not "stealing" (criminal law), it's - possibly, that's for the courts to decide - "copyright infringement", "trademark violation" (civil law) and "tax evasion" (criminal law, and probably the main reason why FBI got involved at all). Which are wholy different legal concepts.
I have no idea why the difference seems so hard to grasp to a lot of people:
* stealing/theft: I take something from the original owner, and he can't access or use it anymore. Criminal offence.
* copyright violation: I copy and/or distribute something without the copyright holder giving me permission to do it. Every current owner of the copy, including the copyright holder, still has full access to his copy. Civil offence.
You can give it a Webster spin like that and say it's not stealing but piracy is still piracy.
Like I said, it's for a judge to decide if NCSoft did lose profits to these rogue servers with their "donations". Pretty sure that will be just as good as theft if these guys are brought up on charges.
From Wikipedia:
In the criminal law, theft (also known as stealing) is the illegal taking of someone else's property without that person's freely-given consent. As a term, it is used as shorthand for all major crimes against property, encompassing offences such as burglary, embezzlement, larceny, looting, robbery, trespassing, shoplifting, intrusion, fraud (theft by deception) and sometimes criminal conversion. In some jurisdictions, theft is considered to be synonymous with larceny; in others, theft has replaced larceny.
One cannot commit the act of stealing without knowingly depriving someone of something for their own use.
This is per say not stealing, but it is an illegal act and can be concidered stealing since what they do is "take" code. What they have done to be able to start their own servers is take the software code from NCSOFT and used it to earn money. This could be concidered stealing in the public eyes, but since you cannot steal code in the same way you can steal lets say a car, there are other laws that regulate this (of course stealing a CD containing all the code for l3 servers would be concidered stealing if it would deprive NCSOFT of l3 servers sofware).
I think that is what most people are trying to get at here. No less i am happy they did this, and i would not be happy if someone tried to steal for example my code for something if i in the future created commercial software.
Why dont you get rid o f the bots. The players on the free servers are there because they dont want to pay you free adn fun for PVP cause you loose nothing and its easy XP. Get real. YOur just a bunch of vendictives punks like the ones you support in the game. Get a life
You can give it a Webster spin like that and say it's not stealing but piracy is still piracy.
Piracy! Arr, matey, now you're talking!
Seriously, how did we end up at theft, murder and kidnapping at high seas suddenly?
Like I said, it's for a judge to decide if NCSoft did lose profits to these rogue servers with their "donations". Pretty sure that will be just as good as theft if these guys are brought up on charges.
Well, "... as good as theft" isn't the same as "theft". The difference being who'd bring up the charges here: the US government (if it is theft), or NCSoft (if it is a copyright violation). And the "donations" themselves won't bring them any charges based on stealing, either; at most, they'll be found guilty of tax evasion.
YOur just a bunch of vendictives punks like the ones you support in the game.
Cry more please.
Nothing vindictive about NCSoft protecting their assets from some punk that thinks he can host a rogue server using their software and get rich on PayPal donations.
3 biggest counties that use private servers are Brazil Russia and Greece.
I hardly call any of those 3rd world countries. Sure all countries have poor and rich people in them thats how the world works. And same the internet cafe crap because most accounts in Korea China and Japan play from internet cafe's and look at their server populations.
Reason the people play private servers is simple they can cheat and there is no penalty for it. They can bot "donate" to get super enchanted weapons buy already leveled toons etc. and there are no penalities.
Oh ya and no $100 dollar computer is ever going to play l2 nevermind even run even the videos from this site lol Those $100 dollar computers you buy can do little more then Word Process and surf the internet (barely) maybe play solitare lol.
Ask people in countries where they play in a majority of intenet cafe's why the bot ebay or buy toons? Number 1 answer cost more to play the game an hour then just buy the adena or toons.
$5 dollars an hour to set up a sale shop over night (8 hours) = $40 bucks 1 night do that 7 nights a week yea its going to get expensive. play 100 hours a week at $5 dollars a pop = $500 bucks why dont you just buy a toon for that?
I think ncsoft might look into a putting in place 2 more servers 1 NA and 1 Euro relaxed maxium of 6 hours of a play time a day geared exactly towards these customers so they have no excuse to bot or ebay. Also put trading posts to sell offline on these servers only. So people cannot complain it will kill the market because those servers are design for people that pay hourly to play the game.
Trust me a lot more people would flood those servers even from private servers. Sure the people who can play from home will still prefer the traditonal servers.
OK...a private server was shut...but SO WHAT????
I read all the posts till now,and have a some things to point out...
1) They DIDN'T steal the game or it's code cos simply ANYONE can download it for free from the official L2 site...what they did after getting it is a completely different story,which has nothing to do with stealing...
2) Most players I know using private servers are minors,who DON'T work,DON'T get ANY money (but the pocket money their parents give 'em),and can easily have a computer and a fast internet connection at home,as they didn't pay for it---their parents did.
3) Bringing those people in the official (I doubt if 1/100 of them WILL turn to the official instead of going to another private server) will bring MORE trouble to us...we have enough bots already,with NC Soft trying (but not hard enough imo) to track down-ban those accounts...MOST of those "players" learnt to play on an "easy" playstyle...so...let me guess what their first move will be in the official game...
EITHER use of 3rd party programs OR buying adena/accounts from any site out there providing them those things...(in this case minors won't have a chance...but adults is another chapter)
4) Most private servers are NOT in the US...which means that they're not under the same law system...in many countries there are MAJOR differences when it comes to internet related laws...that said you can easily understand why many private servers will go unharmed in other countries...cos simply law enforcement does not have a stand against them...
What NC Soft should FIRST consider...is fixing the "inside" problems...what I mean by that,is 1st try to find a WORKING way to deal with the non-legit official players,and then move to a larger scale action against ALL non-official/law breaking servers...
1) The server software is not freely available to download, in fact NCSoft does not offer any type of licence for private use. So, they STOLE it. You are reffering to the client software which is completely different. You can't run servers with the client. You can't reverse engineer the client to make a server identical to the official ones.
2) Well if they dont pay anything they can either a)get their parents to pay or b)start over from scratch on another free server until that one gets shut down or c)go play something else
3) If im lame enough to be botting on a free server what makes you think i'd all the sudden un-lame my self to the point where I'd PAY to bot.
4)I'm glad you know so much about international law. Obviously the USA is the only country in the world with anti-piracy laws. Also, if I'm a player who enjoys L2 why would I want to play on a server oversees and suffer more lag.
1) The server software is not freely available to download, in fact NCSoft does not offer any type of licence for private use. So, they STOLE it. You are reffering to the client software which is completely different. You can't run servers with the client. You can't reverse engineer the client to make a server identical to the official ones.
Actually, in one case I know of, it was at best a case of copying a trade secret (18 U.S.C. § 1832 applies in part in the USA), in the other case it was a clean-room re-implementation of the server based on reverse-engineering its protocol (which is doubtlessly legal in the EU and probably also legal in the USA).
I don't know of any case of actual theft commited in connection with the L2's server code, binaries or game data. If there was one (for example, if somebody broke into NCSoft's office, stealing hardware or data storage media with the L2 server software on it), I couldn't find any news items about it.
3) If im lame enough to be botting on a free server what makes you think i'd all the sudden un-lame my self to the point where I'd PAY to bot.
Who said they're botting on privates???I said THEY WILL BOT IN OFFICIAL...who would be so useless as to have to bot on a 5x-30x-1000x server???
And if not botting,buying adena or accounts from sites selling them...
By the way...piracy has no stand here too...piracy would be the case if they started distributing the server software...
By the way...piracy has no stand here too...piracy would be the case if they started distributing the server software...
*sigh*
I hate how merely copying some data you really shouldn't is so effortlessly named after an activity where actual people are being robbed at gun point, kidnapped and killed almost daily. Like those two would be even remotely comparable.
Somebody did a great PR job here, anchoring this stupid "computer piracy" meme instead of the correct "computer-assisted copyright infringement". :(
Anyway, some food for thought: Why should you be able to play if you can't afford it? I can't afford to eat Titiano ice cream every day, that does not mean they should be forced to give me their recipes, that it would be right to break into their kitchen to steal the recipes, or even check exactly which machines and ingredients they use.
If you can't afford it, you just can't play/listen to it/use it. That's the end of it.
Can I afford a student license for photoshop? Yes. But I don't want to. So I can't have it, and I use the gimpy GIMP instead.
Can X afford playing L2? No? Then maybe have a look at the many free-to-play MMOs like Rappelz, Maple Story or what-have-you.
It's interesting how so many people associate private servers with botting and eBay. Just because NC has been much stronger dealing with the problem lately, doesn't change the type of game they've provided over the last 2+ years.
Part of the reason some, not all, private servers are popular is because they lack botters, bot parties, and people using 3rd party programs to map "scout" are dealt with quickly, that's if they can even connect with the various 3rd party programs. Noone, in all honesty, can say that about retail.
That a server such as l2extreme can have 50% the amount of players as NA is amazing, shocking actually, especially considering thier servers are C4 based. To me it's more of a testament to the failures of NC then anything else.
Will these recent legal battles improve the game for us? Time will tell I imagine, but all I see at the moment is our subscritpion money lining the pockets of lawyers, instead of programers and developers.
... And if not botting,buying adena or accounts from sites selling them...
By the way...piracy has no stand here too...piracy would be the case if they started distributing the server software...
Here I see the next step: go ban the sites that sell and advertise selling online accounts. adena, etc :-)
If they stop selling it, they won't bot! (reverse action point)
Also: closing few servers = the rest of them get their clients, as I'm afraid too a x50+ user wont just go to 1x at any cost, and closing down every single illegal srv in the world is for me impossible, there are no absolute solutions in the world and it's proven by the time and history. So what will happen is: the rest will grow bigger and stronger which means -> not many weak opponents, but a bigger and bigger few ones, who are already advertising: "welcome to us" as I red in the forum earlier.. :-(
P.S.: Darth Vader will always win, cause his wep is +16 ^^
I don't know of any case of actual theft commited in connection with the L2's server code, binaries or game data. If there was one (for example, if somebody broke into NCSoft's office, stealing hardware or data storage media with the L2 server software on it), I couldn't find any news items about it.
they arn't really gonna announce it are they:P "Oh noes, we had our server files stolen!!!" hehe
But just as some info, apparently it was origionally a russian hacker, he then went on to put the complete server files up for $10K. Someone brought em and then they got spread arround the private server community on postpacific and ragezone. Thats from my understanding of events anyway.
Um what? Account security here is pretty horrible. I went over this when they found their "security hole" and changed all our passwords. Has anything changed since, no.
I suppose you think thier server wasn't hacked too. Perhaps they released the files into the public domain, including all of our account information.
Not in legal terms just because a few people whine on a message board.
Its a dangerous game, I am glad NCSoft went after L2X since they got cocky, this gives them an excellent chance to win on other counts or at the very least settle with them. In the end they achieve the same psychological effect, which I bet is what they're aiming for.
The big question now is: Will they go after the people who were playing on the L2X servers? Some of them may decide to play legally now, but I bet several of them are frightened about possible legal action now and steering clear away. I wonder if NCSoft stated that it would not be going after the users of L2X as a "show of good will and forgive and forget" if that would help bring some of them over? Eh, who knows. I'm just a lowly Dark Elf. ;)
I doubt they'd want to waste the time going after so many across several continents. And its rather dubious (even with the modified clients) that they would be able to get any anything out of it.
Um what? Account security here is pretty horrible. I went over this when they found their "security hole" and changed all our passwords. Has anything changed since, no.
I suppose you think thier server wasn't hacked too. Perhaps they released the files into the public domain, including all of our account information.
Getting a keylogger isn't a ****. Sharing your account and having someone strip it isn't a ****. Having someone guess an easy to guess username and password isn't a ****.
Can you get hacked? Yes. The vast majority of the people that say they got "hacked" actually did something stupid (i.e, didn't get hacked).
Y ppl in L2X won't be "hunted" down...
Let's say,thief X steals from a company...what he stole,he starts giving away for free...the company finds thief X and takes all legal measures against him...
What about the people he gave the stolen stuff to...
1st) It's almost impossible to track down everyone...
2nd) Even if they managed to track down most of them,those ppl would claim they did nothing wrong...as they paid nothing to get those products...
3rd) In L2X and every private server's case,ppl simply download the game for free from NC Soft and then the patch to the free game client...so...actually...they do nothing wrong...
NC Soft has a strong case against private server BUT no case at all against users...
When u give something for free but "locked"...don't expect that there won't be the appropriate "locksmith" to it...
And btw...as mentioned earlier...instead of taking action against something that doesn't affect my gameplay (i.e. private servers),they should focus on taking action against the direct "steals" and "bad guys"...but...oh wait...
why would they wanna do that???they get money from them...so it's a good "investment" :p
yea realy 1point for NCSoft ......NOT damit guys clean your own house first djeeez !!!! 85% of the retail player ar EBAYERS OR BOTTERS kick them first then go after the ADENA SELLERS SITES and THEN raid the private sector !!!!
Like i care about a private server down for *** sake your own game has allmost died and NOT cus of the private servers BUT cus of the BOTs and ADENA SELLERS !!! take them down FIRST !!!
yah i guess the adena sellers and bots ar smarter then NCSoft :/
PS: good that NCSoft kills private servers BUT i still think beter things must be done FIRST (CLEAN your GAME first) ! OR is money all that counts?
You missed the point...I didn't say it's right...I said that they can't do anything to the users.
Let me give you an example...company X gives you a car for free...BUT...they say that if you want to use the car,you have to buy gas from our company...
Thief Z...steals gas from the company or "copies" the formula and gives that gas for free...
Company X can take legal action against thief Z,but the worse they can do to the car owners using that gas...is taking their cars...
what do u expect NC Soft to do...uninstall the game from those users???what for???they can download it again from the official site for free... :p :p :p
Y ppl in L2X won't be "hunted" down...
Let's say,thief X steals from a company...what he stole,he starts giving away for free...the company finds thief X and takes all legal measures against him...
What about the people he gave the stolen stuff to...
1st) It's almost impossible to track down everyone...
2nd) Even if they managed to track down most of them,those ppl would claim they did nothing wrong...as they paid nothing to get those products...
3rd) In L2X and every private server's case,ppl simply download the game for free from NC Soft and then the patch to the free game client...so...actually...they do nothing wrong...
NC Soft has a strong case against private server BUT no case at all against users...
When u give something for free but "locked"...don't expect that there won't be the appropriate "locksmith" to it...
And btw...as mentioned earlier...instead of taking action against something that doesn't affect my gameplay (i.e. private servers),they should focus on taking action against the direct "steals" and "bad guys"...but...oh wait...
why would they wanna do that???they get money from them...so it's a good "investment" :p
Ok 1) I can see this, it's true alot of people all over the place. it would be tough.
2+3)
I quote:
You may not (a) sublicense, rent, lease, loan or otherwise transfer the Software or the Service (or any part thereof), including without limitation serial codes; (b) modify, adapt, reverse engineer or decompile the Software, or otherwise attempt to derive source code from the Software; (c) create any derivative works in respect of the Software or the Service; or (d) otherwise use the Software or the Service except as expressly provided in this Agreement. You should keep your serial code in a safe place and not share it with anyone else. The serial code can be used only once. Title to the Software, and all rights with respect to the Software and Service not specifically granted under this Agreement, including without limitation all rights of reproduction, modification, distribution, display, disassembly and decompilation and all copyright, patent, trademark, trade secret and other proprietary rights and interests are reserved to NC Interactive.
For those of you who don't like to read, I bolded the important part!
Well that puts anyone who modified their client, EVEN by adding a new IP or such for a patch server without the expressed WRITTEN consent of NCSoft, in violation of the terms of use and THUS did something illegal. If they did not read the terms of service, BEFORE they downloaded the software, they are still in violation. Pleading ignorance is not a defense, ever especially when you can access the information by using just a few clicks on a keyboard.
Bah - this topic is now totally de-railed - time to lock it up!
Again, Gratz to NCSoft - I hope that more illegal servers gets shut-down.
If they were legal or not - it is not for us to determine. It was not a purpose, why this topic was left open - we suppose to see how it would affect our daily play on official servers. lol
That argument is just flat out flawed, there are a million things NCsoft COULD be doing that is technically more valid than chasing down private servers. Ending world hunger for one, teaching kids to read, solving murders, etc etc.
The thing is, they don't have to do any of that. They chose to go get those private servers and won, that's pretty awesome. Whether or not you, or I, think it's the "best" thing to do is totally irrelevant.
That argument is just flat out flawed, there are a million things NCsoft COULD be doing that is technically more valid than chasing down private servers. Ending world hunger for one, teaching kids to read, solving murders, etc etc.
The thing is, they don't have to do any of that. They chose to go get those private servers and won, that's pretty awesome. Whether or not you, or I, think it's the "best" thing to do is totally irrelevant.
I don't think that is exactly true as those private servers are using the artistic content, story, etc of NC Soft and its developers.
So though the server info might be different I still think they are breaching copyright by using the intellectual property of NC Soft.
An example would be if someone were to create their own type of music player that uses their own type of music file and record all of sting's songs to include in the player.
The music is still owned by someone even if the player and file format is made by someone else.
The music is still Lineage 2.
At least if I am understanding you correctly.
True.
But! That's why they develop server code independently of so-called datapack, so the server itself has nothing to do with NC IP. I think it would be very hard to prove in court.
And, good job, NC Soft. (not joking, really nice to hear).
The only thing I would suggest - give all those people from l2extreme (I mean players) free subscription for, say, 1 month, so that they can see the difference and start paying you when they will. You know it is pretty big loss for many of them, I think.
Well that puts anyone who modified their client, EVEN by adding a new IP or such for a patch server without the expressed WRITTEN consent of NCSoft, in violation of the terms of use and THUS did something illegal. If they did not read the terms of service, BEFORE they downloaded the software, they are still in violation. Pleading ignorance is not a defense, ever especially when you can access the information by using just a few clicks on a keyboard.
Thankfully, I live in Europe, where I can just ignore any terms of contract presented before me after I already legally bought a good (read: I can ignore the EULA/ToS) and not break any law. The worst that could happen is NCSoft banning me from using their servers, but they can already do it for any reason they wish, so it's not like it changes the situation. :)
Well that puts anyone who modified their client, EVEN by adding a new IP or such for a patch server without the expressed WRITTEN consent of NCSoft, in violation of the terms of use and THUS did something illegal. If they did not read the terms of service, BEFORE they downloaded the software, they are still in violation. Pleading ignorance is not a defense, ever especially when you can access the information by using just a few clicks on a keyboard.
Actually you do not even need modifying _client_ to play on private servers.
So you copied wrong part of EULA. I'm too lazy to find needed paragraph, but I remember there is paragraph in EULA about playing on private servers and that license is automatically terminates when you play on them. It is enough to make it illegal.
Thankfully, I live in Europe, where I can just ignore any terms of contract presented before me after I already legally bought a good (read: I can ignore the EULA/ToS) and not break any law. The worst that could happen is NCSoft banning me from using their servers, but they can already do it for any reason they wish, so it's not like it changes the situation. :)
When you download software from their site you are forced to read EULA _before_ downloading software (not sure about nowadays - fileplanet). It is called something like "public offert" (correct my spelling if I'm wrong). And at least in my country (Ukraine) if there is such pre-download statement it is equal to contract between customer and company. And yes, if I read it only after purchase - I can ignore it.
. You further agree not to create or provide any other means through which Lineage II may be played by others, as through server emulators. You acknowledge that you do not have the right to create, publish, distribute, create derivative works from or use any software programs, utilities, applications, emulators or tools derived from or created for Lineage II, except that you may use the Software to the extent expressly permitted by this Agreement. You may not take any action which imposes an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on our infrastructure.
This is probably it...
This should cover my backend, hehe thanks Nevermind ^_^
. You further agree not to create or provide any other means through which Lineage II may be played by others, as through server emulators. You acknowledge that you do not have the right to create, publish, distribute, create derivative works from or use any software programs, utilities, applications, emulators or tools derived from or created for Lineage II, except that you may use the Software to the extent expressly permitted by this Agreement. You may not take any action which imposes an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on our infrastructure.
This is probably it...
This should cover my backend, hehe thanks Nevermind ^_^
When you download software from their site you are forced to read EULA _before_ downloading software (not sure about nowadays - fileplanet). It is called something like "public offert" (correct my spelling if I'm wrong). And at least in my country (Ukraine) if there is such pre-download statement it is equal to contract between customer and company. And yes, if I read it only after purchase - I can ignore it.
I bought the box, so I didn't get to read the EULA beforehand. :)
"This rule derives from the general rule whereby in contracts where all or certain terms are in writing, these terms must always be drafted in plain, intelligible language."
English doesn't count as "plain, intelligible language" in most of Europe - just in those countries where it's an official lanugage. Someone from Italy, for example, doesn't have to follow an EULA if it isn't presented to him in Italian.
Not in legal terms just because a few people whine on a message board.
AKJosch was expressing a problem with the word piracy being used in the context of intellectual property - not in a legal, but in a moral sense.
And yes, then this applies: Language changes.
I'd be curious to know just how many people would have been playing L2x if it actually required a $15 subscription a month, and that had bought you no in game advantage. Talking about NCSoft's failure is easy when they're up against people who have infinite free human resources and who can afford to tempt users with an offer NCSoft can not cut below without introducing an item shop.
in violation of the terms of use and THUS did something illegal.
Ehhh, no, the TOS isn't a legal document, its a "Terms of Service", which means that the best they can do is deny you service.
There's also a little legal notice inside the game package that will say that EVERYTHING is null and void if contradicted by local law. Game companies aren't and never will be lawmakers.
You may not (a) sublicense, rent, lease, loan or otherwise transfer the Software or the Service (or any part thereof), including without limitation serial codes; (b) modify, adapt, reverse engineer or decompile the Software, or otherwise attempt to derive source code from the Software; (c) create any derivative works in respect of the Software or the Service; or (d) otherwise use the Software or the Service except as expressly provided in this Agreement. You should keep your serial code in a safe place and not share it with anyone else. The serial code can be used only once. Title to the Software, and all rights with respect to the Software and Service not specifically granted under this Agreement, including without limitation all rights of reproduction, modification, distribution, display, disassembly and decompilation and all copyright, patent, trademark, trade secret and other proprietary rights and interests are reserved to NC Interactive.
They chose to go get those private servers and won
The real battle is yet to be fought. I believe this is why they chose L2X, its done alot of bad and bold moves over the years, so its alot easier to either get settled or win a case on.
The worst thing that could happen would be if they lost, or lost key parts of the trial.
The only thing I would suggest - give all those people from l2extreme (I mean players) free subscription for, say, 1 month, so that they can see the difference and start paying you when they will. You know it is pretty big loss for many of them, I think.
I think MMORPG.com still has trial codes available.
As well, the Epic Collection gives 45 days free, but you do need to pick up the box, so it's not exactly free, just that time is.
This is my final reminder to everyone -- please do not post the names or links for private servers. That is a form of advertisement for those servers. If I see any other names or links posted, the board account that posted it will be immediately banned from the board and possibly the game.
In addition, please remember that admitting to violating the User Agreement can also result in the banning of your board account.
And finally, you're always welcome to engage in a healthy debate, but watch the flaming, please!
EULA isn't there to protect us, it's there to protect NCSoft. What's up with all these people treating the EULA as some law. It's there for NC's sake and breaching laws like making a private server has nothing to do with the EULA, and a lot to do with theft of intellectual property.
I believe this is what an NC rep. once said on these same boards as well, but I forgot who.
As for the main topic, I'm glad they took down that private server. From a software developer's point of view its never fun to see your stuff get abused, I'm glad I only make software for specific company processes.
Whats with all the "they should stop botting and RMT instead". Every MMO is struggling with these issues why do people suppose that NC will have more luck eliminating them than Blizzard and SOE.
On the other hand if one had the information for "the service of which we do not speak" and found that it was located within the united states, it would be a ton easier then trying to track down hundreds to thousands of users commiting clandestine operations within the game. Its the reason napster and morpheus got shut down originally and not the millions of users using them.
So congrats NCSoft, good luck trying to keep your epic game from being torn to shreds by [censored] who don't understand the concept of getting paid for your hard work.
I realize too that we probably have a significant number of new visitors to the boards these days that may not have been aware of our actions of the last many months.
Regarding our robotic visitors, we have been banning 3rd Party software users very aggressively over the last year and change, due to some new processes and procedures. In that time, we've banned more than 70,000 bots, and we continue to get more and more efficient each week. We have personnel that are dedicated to this duty solely.
We're aware of the negative effects of these "players" on the service, so we're committed to combating this abuse in every manner we can.
Ignorance of the rules/law is not a valid defense though :)
Oh, I never claimed it is. However, as an example, the "... these terms must always be drafted in plain, intelligible language." rule means an EULA in English is ignorable because of the "non-plain" language alone - and the EULA being non-enforceable because of this technicality is a valid "defense" in most of the EU.
I don't know if it has the same amount of game time included. That's part of what I'll confirm.
Stupid time-zones... everyone should be on Central time. You should be eating Lunch right now LC! :mad:
I dunno about you, but eating lunch while its dark outside is kinda weird, lol.
I think it would be better the other way around, that way you wouldn't be at work right now, you'd be home, having fun, just be done with dinner, relaxing in the comfy chair, etc. :D
Just to clarify, its not enforcable at all in most of the EU, its not considered a legal document at all. And even if its considered a legally binding document, doesn't mean its necessarily illegal to breach it.
Rust!
I couldn't be happier that you at NCS are making this effort to "evict" our "visitors". The only worry that I have is what we will loose that will effect the game. We all know that, yes, they bring an unwanted factor into the game. They also bring something positive to the game. Grrrr! :mad:I hate saying that.
Mats! Large Quantities of mats! To support the massive numbers of players that need equipment and don't want to spend 1-2 years as a dwarf trying to collect what they need, while the rest of the players in thier clan have gone on to lvl 80 and subclassed twice. (this paragraph is the edit)
So please tell me that your people at NSC have some kind of plan to help buffer some of the problems that will crop up after you are successful with the final evictions! While the system tries to re-balance!
Rust!
I couldn't be happier that you at NCS are making this effort to "evict" our "visitors". The only worry that I have is what we will loose that will effect the game. We all know that, yes, they bring an unwanted factor into the game. They also bring something positive to the game. Grrrr! :mad:I hate saying that.
Mats!
So please tell me that your people at NSC have some kind of plan to help buffer some of the problems that will crop up after you are successful with the final evictions! While the system tries to re-balance!
May I make a corection here????They don't bring mats...mats are there for legit players to farm...
Yet...if people saw the game from the role-playing part too,not just the PvP (which imo is very over-estimated),you would see more actual-legit dwarves doing what the programmers of this game designed them to do...
Yet...90% of the people play a PvP toon...trying to get high lvl in less time,top weapons/armor per lvl,so that's y 90% depends on legit or non legit dwarves to get those weapons/armor...
There are a few quests for mats...but who takes 'em????only dwarves...all other toons,prefere to go to catas to lvl up faster than gathering mats...and then whine about not enough mats for their desired staff...
All ppl 2boxin-3boxin-Xboxin,never use a dwarf...or use 1/100...Y???cos they think it's all about PvP...
P.S.: check how many will flame me,saying this game is PvP based,and u'll see what I mean...
Rust!
I couldn't be happier that you at NCS are making this effort to "evict" our "visitors". The only worry that I have is what we will loose that will effect the game. We all know that, yes, they bring an unwanted factor into the game. They also bring something positive to the game. Grrrr! :mad:I hate saying that.
Mats!
So please tell me that your people at NSC have some kind of plan to help buffer some of the problems that will crop up after you are successful with the final evictions! While the system tries to re-balance!
May I make a corection here????They don't bring mats...mats are there for legit players to farm...
Yet...if people saw the game from the role-playing part too,not just the PvP (which imo is very over-estimated),you would see more actual-legit dwarves doing what the programmers of this game designed them to do...
Yet...90% of the people play a PvP toon...trying to get high lvl in less time,top weapons/armor per lvl,so that's y 90% depends on legit or non legit dwarves to get those weapons/armor...
There are a few quests for mats...but who takes 'em????only dwarves...all other toons,prefere to go to catas to lvl up faster than gathering mats...and then whine about not enough mats for their desired staff...
All ppl 2boxin-3boxin-Xboxin,never use a dwarf...or use 1/100...Y???cos they think it's all about PvP...
P.S.: check how many will flame me,saying this game is PvP based,and u'll see what I mean...
All right. I can agree with most of what you are syaing here. I don't know why people would flame you for saying this game is PVP based.....it is PVP based! That was it's intent, along with the role playing part. And yes, I could level up a dwarf and spend all my time trying to collect mats, if that was the role I wanted to play, which it isn't. So, no, our visitors don't bring mats to the game. I should rephrase that to say they bring large quantities of mats to the game. Which we all make use of even when we don't know that the player we're buygin that thread from is one of our visitors friends. Sometimes even when we do know. The loss of that large mat market will have an impact on the game on all servers, and it will take time to settle down. In the mean time, I am just hoping that NC-S has some kind of battle plan in place to offer a bit of help. I remember seeing thread selling for 1000 adena after C4 hit. I would really like to NOT see those kinds of prices again!
Just my 2 cents in the matter of why people chose private servers instead of the official one.
I've not played for a very long time but being curious about the game and it's content i tend to cruise in l2 sites looking for information and just to talk to other people playing the game.
reading forums on all these sites has taught me that the question of why people in general play on private servers tends to end up in 2 dominating answers.
1. on private servers there are no bots/ebayers which brings them a game experience where everyone is in the same boat without others having unfair advantages from cheating.
2. as mentioned before, they don't have the time required to reach end game pvp and so on.
now i don't know if this has already been brought up but i only read to page 7 before posting :)
and a big congrats to NcSoft who nailed thoses private servers. i do belive that it will bring new players to this community.
1. on private servers there are no bots/ebayers which brings them a game experience where everyone is in the same boat without others having unfair advantages from cheating.
2. as mentioned before, they don't have the time required to reach end game pvp and so on.
Neither of these two scenarios (especially #2) make them any less of an ******.
I have been playing 2.5 years here and 6 months on a private server. I came back here after the latest no-drop patch and would probably stay IF ... you keep on dealing with the ridiculous bots: sdlfsdg, sdfgsdgw, qwerqwerqw, werteetre, ... harvesting the starter villages, auto-soeing, GK-ing, Buying scrolls at NPCs etc, etc (don't tell me they're not bots ok?) ... it is ridiculous to pretend they dont exist!
My efforts to play legid look pathetic and miserable, compared to the possibilities those 24x7 freaks could afford, and its not about me - its about honour! I've written more guides on how to play this game on different forums, then the scripts these "legid" players to their bot softwares! - for the last 3 years and I don't qualify myself like a noob who can't get what's needed! It's just humiliating!
On private servers there were also other type of cheats, corrupted GMs, +20+ weapons and so on, but also some servers where things were as they're supposed to be here.
I also believe that on Korean servers there's not that much bots (if any at all) cause I believe the creators of this game are ppl of honour! All non-legid players read this and learn! You are noone if you've mistaken yourself with gods, changing your toon's/accounts' names and botting over and over, then buying your colorful accessories. There is nothing shameful to be on a siege in B grade and lower than 76+ but its shameful to pretend "who I am" while most of you are just 24x7 resemblance to a Knights Of Honour!
I want to be part of the community here! but IF there is any community at all ... that's my 3 cents.
NCs's action was just stupid and unnessesary. Most of the servers that were closed down were really good. NCs only showed that they can only destroy what is good while they can't create anything like that.
They think that more ppl will play retail? LOL. Sry but most of them already found other servers or quit L2. So many ppl will also discurage others to join retail.
If NCs want more money then WHY THE HELL they wont create high rate server with gm shops, town buffers and proper support team like some private servers had? Not everyone can spend every moment of their life on one game. IMO official servers suck! No gms online and 70% of what u call "community" are bots. Today with some guy we have found around 10 of them on only small part of TI in a few mins! Consider i have seen only around 13 players all that day and i have played a lil...
I wont even mention that 1x rate is BORING LIKE HELL.
On high rate private servers reaching s grade(and really getting s grade gear) takes from 4-10 days depending from the class. in that time u see who is bad *** and who is good, u choose side, join clan and then take all the fun the mmo can offer. U lose pvp? Are u Pked? Who cares. 10mins and u have ur 5% back. insted of crying go and fight back! This is how i want to play.
I understand that here are ppl who wish to spend with this game years and who like lvling few days in a row in the same spot on a same mobs.
I have tried private servers a lil and official so i think im right person to say whats below. What i want to say is: MAKE **** HIGH RATE SERVER OR LEAVE PRIVATE SERVERS alone.
(Maybe i should put that post in suggestions?)
TY for listening. Now NCs's fanboys can start flaming and all others discusing
They cannot do that. A business (or individual, for that matter) must vigorously fight to remove those that are illegally using their copyrighted material or risk losing the rights to it. Not fighting to have private servers removed (when they know about them) is almost the same as condoning them. The fact that many are outside the influence of US law enforcement doesn't help matters.
On high rate private servers reaching s grade(and really getting s grade gear) takes from 4-10 days depending from the class. in that time u see who is bad *** and who is good, u choose side, join clan and then take all the fun the mmo can offer. U lose pvp? Are u Pked? Who cares. 10mins and u have ur 5% back. insted of crying go and fight back! This is how i want to play.
We all get it. We all understand that the motivation for playing on these servers is to have everything handed to you at the beginning. However, as a college professor of mine used to say, "Do you want to make love or do you just want to *********e?"
NCs's action was just stupid and unnessesary. Most of the servers that were closed down were really good. NCs only showed that they can only destroy what is good while they can't create anything like that.
They think that more ppl will play retail? LOL. Sry but most of them already found other servers or quit L2. So many ppl will also discurage others to join retail.
If NCs want more money then WHY THE HELL they wont create high rate server with gm shops, town buffers and proper support team like some private servers had? Not everyone can spend every moment of their life on one game. IMO official servers suck! No gms online and 70% of what u call "community" are bots. Today with some guy we have found around 10 of them on only small part of TI in a few mins! Consider i have seen only around 13 players all that day and i have played a lil...
I wont even mention that 1x rate is BORING LIKE HELL.
On high rate private servers reaching s grade(and really getting s grade gear) takes from 4-10 days depending from the class. in that time u see who is bad *** and who is good, u choose side, join clan and then take all the fun the mmo can offer. U lose pvp? Are u Pked? Who cares. 10mins and u have ur 5% back. insted of crying go and fight back! This is how i want to play.
I understand that here are ppl who wish to spend with this game years and who like lvling few days in a row in the same spot on a same mobs.
I have tried private servers a lil and official so i think im right person to say whats below. What i want to say is: MAKE **** HIGH RATE SERVER OR LEAVE PRIVATE SERVERS alone.
(Maybe i should put that post in suggestions?)
TY for listening. Now NCs's fanboys can start flaming and all others discusing
I won't flame you but I will comment (me fanboi? I think I have enough posts that heavily criticize this game to say "not").
Though I don't agree with you that NC should leave the private servers alone (it's their game. They made it. They can do whatever they want with it) I will say that you have nailed it on the head.
Many players don't want to spend the extended time it takes to level in this game and would rather just do pvp. Of course some will say that making someone lose "x" amount of % of xp (including the time it took to get it) is fun and adds to the danger excitement. But that is another argument.
I also doubt that a good amount of players from Private servers will come to the main game. They are there (as you have said) because these private servers offer an experience that they consider better.
But, be that as it may, it is not in the right of the makers of these private servers to use NC's intellectual property. It just isn't.
It's like me taking something that you made/created and using it for my own purposes since I don't agree with what you did with it, and making some money on it. Now, if you are talking about open source software then ok. But this is not open source.
NC invested their time and money in software that they have every right to dictate how it is used.
It is theirs. Whether people think it sucks or not is their opinion and they are welcome to it. But they just don't have the right to use it the way they want to.
As I've posted on mmorpg.com; it is akin to someone writing a book and then someone else coming along and liking the book but hating some of the chapters and even the ending.
So, they rewrite those chapters, the ending, and then post it and ask for donations to keep the site up.
Now, don't you think that that is wrong? To take somone else's work and completely change it without permisson?
They cannot do that. A business (or individual, for that matter) must vigorously fight to remove those that are illegally using their copyrighted material or risk losing the rights to it.
Actually thats not quite true, and just about all mmorpg companies have left them alone for all this time without losing their rights to anything.
Its also a big risk to sue them, it only takes one case going bad and they're screwed, its the same dilemma as with the secondary market.
"Do you want to make love or do you just want to *********e?"
Life would be rather crappy if you couldn't do both. :D
On high rate private servers reaching s grade(and really getting s grade gear) takes from 4-10 days depending from the class. in that time u see who is bad *** and who is good, u choose side, join clan and then take all the fun the mmo can offer. U lose pvp? Are u Pked? Who cares. 10mins and u have ur 5% back. insted of crying go and fight back! This is how i want to play.
We all get it. We all understand that the motivation for playing on these servers is to have everything handed to you at the beginning. However, as a college professor of mine used to say, "Do you want to make love or do you just want to *********e?"
IMO Official server cannot be compared to any of this. ROFL
Honestly nobody can tell what is better - 1x rate or 35x (or even 3500x?!). One prefers that smn else sth other. But topic is not about that here.
NCsoft wants money. The problem is im willing to pay for sth that NCsoft can provide but they are ignoring me. And now they show they true face by destroing great communities.
If smn is going to waste sth, it should be taken from him. If law says otherwise that means law is bad. IF NCSoft doesnt want to provide high rate servers, community should make them on their own. Especially when NCSoft is not losing anything.
IMO thats the truth.
IF NCSoft doesnt want to provide high rate servers, community should make them on their own. Especially when NCSoft is not losing anything.
IMO thats the truth.
That is NOT the truth. If you don't the way the Official Servers are run, then you need to try and get them changed. Either that or don't play. Spin it any way you want, it's wrong to play on them.
U missed sth or me english bad?
Well tell me how can i change it? Its basic thing that there r ppl who want high rates and every corporatioon that makes mmorpgs knows about it. And know that i wont play. At least untill there wil be official high rate or another nice private will be opened soon.
No, NC wants to protect Copyright and the well being of the game.
About NCSoft defending their copy rights. They do that to get more money. Everything comes down to this. Too bad it wont work as they intended. LOL
U missed sth or me english bad?
Well tell me how can i change it? Its basic thing that there r ppl who want high rates and every corporatioon that makes mmorpgs knows about it. And know that i wont play. At least untill there wil be official high rate or another nice private will be opened soon.
Obviously you're just going to do what you want to do. Some people are like that. NCSoft is allowed to run their game the way they want. Market forces will dictate what happens. In other words, if no one likes it, they lose money and close up shop. But to say "do it this way or we'll set up private servers" is ludicrous. Just because you can do it doesn't make it right.
About NCSoft defending their copy right. They do that to get more money.
Naturally, they are a business. They aren't a charity. However, it is their work.
Too bad it wont work. LOL
As long as people insist on playing on private servers. Perhaps if you earned a living from your intellectual property, you might have a different perspective on this.
Well tell me how can i change it? Its basic thing that there r ppl who want high rates and every corporatioon that makes mmorpgs knows about it. And know that i wont play. At least untill there wil be official high rate or another nice private will be opened soon.
Obviously you're just going to do what you want to do. Some people are like that. NCSoft is allowed to run their game the way they want. Market forces will dictate what happens. In other words, if no one likes it, they lose money and close up shop. But to say "do it this way or we'll set up private servers" is ludicrous. Just because you can do it doesn't make it right.
I dont think u fully understand this but most ppl including me wont play or will stop plaing on retail servers cuz they find it DULL. If they will decide to stay with l2 they will look for high rate server and since there is no official high rate servers they will look for some nice private one. NCS would lose these ppl anyway so whats the point in fighting private servers? Just to show "uhaha we are allmighty and we can make u play wherever we want uahahaha". Threatening will only make NCS to lose customers. There were big companies that worked this way and where they ended everybody can see.
About NCSoft defending their copy right. They do that to get more money.
Naturally, they are a business. They aren't a charity. However, it is their work.
Indeed.
Too bad it wont work. LOL
As long as people insist on playing on private servers. Perhaps if you earned a living from your intellectual property, you might have a different perspective on this.
Its very propable that soon i will but even then i wont treat ppl who will use my software in the way like "obey or die".
Awesome, well let me know when you make some software and I'll steal it, modify it, distribute it, and profit nicely off of your work. Surely you won't mind.
Awesome, well let me know when you make some software and I'll steal it, modify it, distribute it, and profit nicely off of your work. Surely you won't mind.
First. I have checked. And in fact u CANT steal software.
Second. Private server owners dont profit in any way from running it. Donations are usually refunded after server is closed down (of course only in some % cuz most of them is spent on data transfer and only part is alocated in hardware which can be sold)
I dont think u fully understand this but most ppl including me wont play or will stop plaing on retail servers cuz they find it DULL. If they will decided to stay with l2 they will look for high rate server and since there is no official high rate servers they will look for some nice private one. NCS would lose these ppl anyway so whats the point in fighting private servers? Just to show "uhaha we are allmighty and we can make u play wherever we want uahahaha". Threatening will only make NCS to lose customers. There were big companies that worked this way and where they ended everybody can see.
The point is that it is their property. It's the same argument that people use for pirating music. "I wouldn't have bought it anyway." Sorry, it just doesn't hold water. I don't see where NCSoft has threaten anyone, except for the people running the private servers. Of course they want their customers to play on official servers. You seem to think that because they are a business, what you're doing is okay. It's not.
Its very propable that soon i will but even then i wont treat ppl who will use my software in the way like "obey or die".
It's very probable that if you intend to make money selling software that you write, you will vigorously fight someone that takes your software, changes it and either gives it away for free or sells it, without you receiving any money.
Not getting involved with your particular train of debate. But what you just said above also applies to NCSoft.
You are more than welcome to vote with your wallet against any decision NCSoft makes.
Or I could play on a private server :p But I believe your point being that just because you (me, anyone else or NCSoft) can do it, doesn't' make it right.
I dont think u fully understand this but most ppl including me wont play or will stop plaing on retail servers cuz they find it DULL. If they will decided to stay with l2 they will look for high rate server and since there is no official high rate servers they will look for some nice private one. NCS would lose these ppl anyway so whats the point in fighting private servers? Just to show "uhaha we are allmighty and we can make u play wherever we want uahahaha". Threatening will only make NCS to lose customers. There were big companies that worked this way and where they ended everybody can see.
The point is that it is their property. It's the same argument that people use for pirating music. "I wouldn't have bought it anyway." Sorry, it just doesn't hold water. I don't see where NCSoft has threaten anyone, except for the people running the private servers. Of course they want their customers to play on official servers. You seem to think that because they are a business, what you're doing is okay. It's not.
Its not the same with music. Cuz legal music and pirated is basicly the same. Originall server is low rate and private are hmm usually higher rates (i havent seen server below 3x). So its not he same. There can be even up to 350000% of diference (for 3500x server). That a lot.
Its very propable that soon i will but even then i wont treat ppl who will use my software in the way like "obey or die".
It's very probable that if you intend to make money selling software that you write, you will vigorously fight someone that takes your software, changes it and either gives it away for free or sells it, without you receiving any money.
Sry. But i dont plan to go this way. Im not like these ppl who do everything for money. For example if i had mmorpg game, I would make low and high rate servers so this way there was no need for private servers. But if for some reason there was server that i cant make or it wouldnt be profitable enough to run i wouldnt fight ppl who run them on their own. Simple
Look, there are so many reasons not to play on private servers and so many reasons to play on private servers.
Some people say its good to crack down on private servers (PS from now on) and I see where your coming from.I mean, who wouldn't want want bigger servers and more parties?But you also have to see a negative side to it, which is why almost all the posts I have read are completely Slanted.You have to remeber, the more people, the higher demand for Adena, and since NCsofts records for anti-bot protection currently is the equivalent of a string trying to hog-tie a bull, I'd say that server value would decrease.Not to mention the fact that actually getting enough money to afford armor is like running a marathon through a corn field backwards and naked.
But I do see the good side of protecting NCsoft's copyrights (it chills my bones to write that word).Sometimes you have to admire people for their hard-work and NCsoft sure has created a good game.
But if NCsoft desides that [removed] (No affiliation with the l2 Off files) are illegal I think it will have created a whole new world of bad, because then they actually have to worry about balancing the game out to attract new customers.
If you haven't figured it out yet, I am in favor of PS' that dont require a fee , as L2extreme did.
If anything some kind of license would be good for private servers that want to run off donations would be good control, along with some kind of tribute system.Although ultimatley it would appear that NCsoft had a lot of subsidearies.
So, all in all I hope to shed some light on the subject.
~*Viva La revolution*~
PS. It kind of makes me mad that I have to post to tell you people this.I mean , everyone is entitled to their opinion, but you need to know the facts.Just saying "just because you can does not mean you should" doesn't hold up in my book,I think the problem here is miscommunication, because As it stands, Sometimes you need to rebel to get things changed and thats called civil disobediance.
Ultimatley, I think we need to pull together as a community and try and Fix the internal and external problems NCsoft has.That way, we can create a better game for all of us.
PS. It kind of makes me mad that I have to post to tell you people this.I mean , everyone is entitled to their opinion, but you need to know the facts.Just saying "just because you can does not mean you should" doesn't hold up in my book,I think the problem here is miscommunication, because As it stands, Sometimes you need to rebel to get things changed and thats called civil disobediance.
Embarking on civil disobedience is fine as long as you are willing to accept by the consequences of it. However, I honestly don't believe that the majority of people that are playing on private servers are doing so because of some "noble cause."
Ultimatley, I think we need to pull together as a community and try and Fix the internal and external problems NCsoft has.That way, we can create a better game for all of us.
Agreed. Playing on private servers is not the answer, though.
I think that the people hosting a PS are kind of shaking Ncsoft's hand while kicking them in the crotch.
It's like they love the game so much they are willing to hurt it.
I don't know if it needs to be a noble cause to defy something, i think its just a view worth standing for.
As I see it, Ncsoft has done little to accomadate those who complain and keep playing, but I haven't researched to much on the topic.But thats the irksome thing, people are implying that all the Ps hosts are pure evil and I don't like it, I mean, people's posts that I have read paint it like NCsoft just one some holy war by killing the hethens.
I hope this makes sense.It does to me. If it doesnt Ill try and clerify my views.
Many people that runs private servers have once played on official and for some reason got tired of it. And then wanted to make a world of Lineage the way they wanted it and at the same time be able to let other people take part of that experience too.
For those of you who have never played on a private server. There are like millions of them more or less populated. Some of the most famouse has/has had populations way larger than any official server. imagine how much people that is? I myself found the way into lineage over two years ago when a friend gave me a tip of this new game called Lineage 2. Back then i had no idea there were any other servers. Even the less i knew of that there was some kind of official server. I thought that -it- was the official. then it closed after about a year and i learned that there was this -real- server which i'm now playing on.
What i'm trying to say is that many people doesn't even know that www.lineage2.com (http://www.lineage2.com) exists. Maybe now with all the fuzz that is going on out in the PS lands. Lot's of players would come here and stay here if they could get a good gaming experience and not be dissapointed when they realise that they have no chance to get into the game cause bots, cause ebayers and cause these servers have been going on for so long that the low lvl population does barely exists. They find ghost towns nearly everywhere close to where they start playing and think: "oh noone is here? :o i'm out" On PS when you hear about bots they are referred as people that wants to take advantage of a program to level faster. Here on the other hand bots are people doing their work to provide other people with ingame currency.. even i went like WTF?! the first time i realised what was going on.
I think a higher rate official server or two would get tons of new customers. Cause higher rate = more mats/adena and the the need of buying adena that some people has would be eliminated. Besides, all those players from PS's has great knowledge of the game since most of them has experienced end game pvp and all that it includes to be max lvl. They could really contribute to this community. Sry for long post. Hope you found it useful and informative. Thanks
That's actually how I got here. I had no clue about this official website, and a few friends of mine were playing Lineage Extreme, which they thought was a "different edition". They only realized that Lineage Extreme wasn't official after the FBI shut it down.
Who knows, it might have been the case for a bunch of other people. Hopefully they'll all end up here.
Yes yes yes!!! that's what i'm saying. people does not even know they are criminals. And with soooo many people loving this game a little advertising could do miracles :)
And as a little edit to my previous post. not all servers are ghost towns for lowbies. Franz is an great example of a server where there are lot's of people in all lvl ranges since it's a new server.
I was going to post something but it was not really about the PS but more about all the problems with official servers so I will keep it short. Is what really astounds me is that some people will pay to play on PS. NCsoft really needs to ask themselves why? What drives people to pay retail prices for a none retail product? Know this is no victory at all unless there is follow up and some of the root causes are fixed.
Many people that runs private servers have once played on official and for some reason got tired of it. And then wanted to make a world of Lineage the way they wanted it and at the same time be able to let other people take part of that experience too.
But this is where people are getting derailed a bit.
It's not their game to alter. At all. It doesn't negate the fact that they want a different playing experience. I get that. But if the makers of the game did not make it the way they want then it's not their game to change.
It's not like Morrowind or Oblivion where the gamemakers have allowed player made alterations or content.
The makers have made their game with their money, their workers, their designs their vision.
That's it. It's really that simple. It is their intellectual propterty and they have the legal right to use it as they see fit. If people feel that they are not doing things with the game that will make it more successful then you may or may not be right. But it's their game to mess up (if indeed that is what they are doing) and it's also their legal right.
People who want to make a stand and play on private servers have that choice. But you also must be aware of what you are doing. Being clear on your actions and accepting any consequences is what separates children from adults.
In the end, whether you disagree with the law, it is still the law. It is what defines our societies. You can work to change the law but it is still the law.
Well, apparently it does to some extent as I hear the FBI shut down some unauthorized game servers. :)
My actual point is that there is the law and if people want to break it they should be clear about that. Not try to convince themselves that since NC isn't doing a good job that it is ok for others to take their work and change it how they see fit. And ask for donations while they are doing it.
Actually I could both run a game server (depending on how and which) and access one and it would be fully legal. (but NCSoft could banz0r me of course.
And they can shut this service down because it was very blatant and they distributed grossly modified gamefiles. Believe me if it was so easy to just take them down, companies would have shut them all down a long time ago. NCSoft needed a case that would convince the FBI to make a case out of it and at the same time have a pretty solid chance at standing up in a court case. As stated earlier, the worst thing that could happen to the MMORPG industry would be for a company to take on these people and lose the case.
I played on a PS for about 6 months with some friends. I came back to Officials a year ago because of reliability and professionalism. The PS's that i've played or looked into seemed ok on the surface, but are lame when you factor in donation rewards (+20 weapons/armor,etc.), the ridiculous downtime random reboots/crashes, shady GM's and/or favoritism. IMHO official servers are smoother and crash less. The management here appears very professional, and that is what I prefer.
PS's wouldn't be necessary as advertisement as some people here have argued, if only NCSoft would actually advertise. Was also reading about quite a few clans/players from l2x moving to retail, but that is just a rumor of course. Sounds viable to me, some will find new PS to play, others will quit, some will probably come to officials. I was certainly turned off by the amount of times I had to start over from scratch on PS's. After the first 2 server wipes, I was ready to come back here.
"The unauthorized reproduction or distribution of copyrighted work is illegal. Criminal copyright infringement, including infringement without monetary gain, is investigated by the FBI and is punishable by up to 5 years in federal prison and a fine of $250,000."
OWNED, and hard.
And as others have pointed out, this isn't like the games where they give you development tools to play with, like NeverWinter Nights for example. That game came with the tools to make your own worlds, weapons, houses, territories, script editing, npc editing etc.
"The unauthorized reproduction or distribution of copyrighted work is illegal. Criminal copyright infringement, including infringement without monetary gain, is investigated by the FBI and is punishable by up to 5 years in federal prison and a fine of $250,000."
OWNED, and hard.
And as others have pointed out, this isn't like the games where they give you development tools to play with, like NeverWinter Nights for example. That game came with the tools to make your own worlds, weapons, houses, territories, script editing, npc editing etc.
L2 does NOT.
Hopefully owner of L2extreme got a nice punishment :D to never do that again
"The unauthorized reproduction or distribution of copyrighted work is illegal. Criminal copyright infringement, including infringement without monetary gain, is investigated by the FBI and is punishable by up to 5 years in federal prison and a fine of $250,000."
OWNED, and hard.
And as others have pointed out, this isn't like the games where they give you development tools to play with, like NeverWinter Nights for example. That game came with the tools to make your own worlds, weapons, houses, territories, script editing, npc editing etc.
There are different ppl and likings/dislikings. I'd never go play more than 1x server, cause of my personality: once I get everything - I'm done and got bored. This is about me.
Yes, there might be 50x 4000x ... servers for type of players who: can't play more than 2h per day (but if they can't do that - how are they supposed to do parties, sieges, end-game TOP content?) Also: there will be those types of players who don't read any information, don't care to achieve anything from the Role-Play-Part, rather than just walking in game, "having fun" begging for adena or whining all the time - this prolly entertain them (the kids) :-)
There are many many examples of how different ppl are, but after all the professional attitude and performance of the NCs products + changing contetnt = making me play this game forever! Thx^^
Some peole here are really ignorant.PS exist with sole purpose - money.
Either with altered rates : advertising as "all rates x3" when actually its exp/sp x3 and drop/spoil x1.And then you can easily sell adena for like 10$ for 1m because there is too few B/A items.
Either by "all rates x50" + +XX items for donators.
Ofcourse all this "i pay 200$ every month to play on free server" looks really dumb to me.
No debate that private servers offering Lineage 2 are illegal (not sure if all of them are but anyway, let's consider the illegal ones). But no debate too that NC soft knew this all the time and actually allowed it. Why? To help expand the game playerbase. They knew that with the official servers only the game would not spread a lot. Not everyone can or is willing to pay for this. But if you get to play it for free, maybe you will consider to finally buy it and pay the monthly fees. That's why the let the private servers spread. Because they functioned as no-cost advertisement of the game. NC soft knows of course that they can't attarct all the free servers customers, like:
1) Those who come from poor countries and can't pay these money (by the way; to the one that said "how can they afford to have PC and fast connection and can't afford to pay the game?" Answer: they all play from net cafe's. Wake up from your glass world. There are some countries that people have monthly income 15$).
2) Those who are too impacient to grind and want to go level 75 in 2 days, or simply don't have enough time to play properly.
3) Those who got frustated for various reasons from the official servers.
But NC also knows that all these people have friends and some of them can be attracted to their product. Don't forget that what they did was just to move against one site (ok, maybe the top one) but the internet is full of more.
Any likeness between NC soft and Microsoft tactics (allow first editions of Windows with no protection so they can dominate the market and then start making it harder and harder to copy the newer versions) is completely random.
yea realy 1point for NCSoft ......NOT damit guys clean your own house first djeeez !!!! 85% of the retail player ar EBAYERS OR BOTTERS kick them first then go after the ADENA SELLERS SITES and THEN raid the private sector !!!!
Like i care about a private server down for *** sake your own game has allmost died and NOT cus of the private servers BUT cus of the BOTs and ADENA SELLERS !!! take them down FIRST !!!
This was my exact reaction upon hearing the news.
However, assume for a moment the combined number of farmer and automated accounts (farmer or otherwise) comes to 20% of the total population across all official servers – a figure most legitimate players familiar with the game will agree is a fairly reasonable (even modest) estimation.
Given a monthly subscription fee of USD$14.95 and the official grand total of 100,000 active accounts for NA and European servers combined, this would equate to more than USD$3.5million per annum from accounts of this type.
"The unauthorized reproduction or distribution of copyrighted work is illegal. Criminal copyright infringement, including infringement without monetary gain, is investigated by the FBI and is punishable by up to 5 years in federal prison and a fine of $250,000."
OWNED, and hard.
Be careful there, because you, your family, and all you friends are 99% likely to have at some point in time violated copyright and are subject to this penalty.
Just because it's law doesn't mean it's a good law and if I were you, instead of celebrating I'd start writing your congressman before one day the authorities find a copied CD and use this law to give you some jail time for something else, like your right to free speech.
Some peole here are really ignorant.PS exist with sole purpose - money.
God forbid people would actually do something for free, just because they're having fun ...
(Where's my "rollseyes" smiley when I need it, **** it! :))
People run PS to make money.If you believe all this BS about "making better game" or "fixing NC mistakes" , well , you deserve to have your "hard payed" character with all "ubah" gear deleted.
"The unauthorized reproduction or distribution of copyrighted work is illegal. Criminal copyright infringement, including infringement without monetary gain, is investigated by the FBI and is punishable by up to 5 years in federal prison and a fine of $250,000."
OWNED, and hard.
Be careful there, because you, your family, and all you friends are 99% likely to have at some point in time violated copyright and are subject to this penalty.
Just because it's law doesn't mean it's a good law and if I were you, instead of celebrating I'd start writing your congressman before one day the authorities find a copied CD and use this law to give you some jail time for something else, like your right to free speech.
I'm not convinced it is bad law. Perhaps the punishment could be alterered but I never want it to be "ok" to use copyrighted material without having to pay for it.
I'm glad to see L2Extreme taken down and can only hope many more Private Servers are removed from the internet. I want this because they are potential subscribers to a game that needs extra population in many worlds. Not to mention their immense Bandwith usage downloading the clients.
It's no secret than NCSoft's Bandwith was sucked up by the Private Server leechers and genuine customers suffer for it now.
I hope NCSoft will rehost the game on their own servers as FilePlanet is a big hassle when it comes to resuming a file. Not everyone can download 2.8GB in a day, in this day and age many ISP's limit transfer rates to around 1GB/day anyway (via a Fair Usage policy - not a hard coded cap).
I've never seen Private Servers have such an effect on a game as they have on L2. For many other games I'd say that a lot of Private Servers are acceptable and necessary for various reasons, but here it doesn't work.
It buys a new account and thus has to pay double for key and subscription.
The money arguement is old and flaw - their banning proccess involves enough investigation and review time to make any bot worthwhile to run until it's banned, even if it were flagged as early as creation - and they rarely are.
It buys a new account and thus has to pay double for key and subscription.
The money arguement is old and flaw - their banning proccess involves enough investigation and review time to make any bot worthwhile to run until it's banned, even if it were flagged as early as creation - and they rarely are.
Absolutely. The current system just isn't making an impact. While it may stop the non-professional botter - it evidentally does nothing to deter the big adena sellers :(
"The unauthorized reproduction or distribution of copyrighted work is illegal. Criminal copyright infringement, including infringement without monetary gain, is investigated by the FBI and is punishable by up to 5 years in federal prison and a fine of $250,000."
OWNED, and hard.
Be careful there, because you, your family, and all you friends are 99% likely to have at some point in time violated copyright and are subject to this penalty.
If they are the ones distributing the pirated material, no problem. You'll notice that the FBI went after the service provider, not the customers.
That's not the law dude. READ unauthorized reproduction or distribution. As far as I can tell, private servers made ONE copy of official server files, and distribute nothing.
That's not the law dude. READ unauthorized reproduction or distribution. As far as I can tell, private servers made ONE copy of official server files, and distribute nothing.
I know it's not the law, dude. I'm talking about this particular case.
Im glad that NC did something about this, I hope that this will set a precedence and other private servers will get the axe in the future.
I can't debate whether what they did is legal or not, but I hope they fry.
The amount of money that a software company has to invest to get a game of this magnitude out to the public has to be well into the millions.
For a few ppl to spend a significantly less portion of time and money to emulate, reverse engineer and/or **** NC lineage server software and then offer the same service as NC but for free or undercutting NC's monthly fee is an injustice.
Whether the owners of these private servers thought they were doing ppl a favor or were out to make a quick buck off someone elses hard work. I hope the US justice system makes a good example out of them.
After that I hope NC gets the government to go after the ppl distributing the botter software like NC korea has done.
I'm going to jump in along with SirE and Sov on this one. It never ceases to amaze me how people will argue a point into the ground even though they have no argument to defend in the first place. Welcome to the new world order. :p
Ignorance of the law does not an excuse make. We all know this, yet it seems like people come out of the woodwork to defend poor decisionmaking. The fact is that NCSoft owns LineageII, period. Unless they give permission to another entity to use it, distribute, change it, etc., it's is illegal. Anyone who knowingly distributes, copies, or changes it for anything other than it's original intent is wrong, period.
Though initially a player who encounters a PS to play on might not know it's a copy, eventually they will. Either through simply trying to get support or conversations with other players who fled the legit game. When they find out, what do they do? Do they do the right thing? Probably not. So what's wrong with that picture? Just because I want something, doesn't mean it's mine for the taking. It's called honor. It's called integrity. Diluting the argument with poor excuses and copouts like "I don't live there so it's okay" doesn't change anything. You're still just as wrong.
So if you not willing to play by the rules, just do us all a favor and go away. You'd be better off anyway, because you wouldn't have to listen to people like me rant about how messed up in the head you are for believing it's okay. :p
I will never play on a private server. I don't play MMO's to get to the top as fast as I can; I play them to have fun, and racing to the top isn't what I consider fun. I'm glad NCSoft is cracking down on unofficial servers.
I for one am so glad this forum is full of national and international law experts. :p
:) This actually has been very educational. I for one have spent quite a bit of time lately on the Library of Congress site reading though the Copyright Laws, DMCA, Fair Use, and various other documents. Great stuff to help you fall asleep!!!
Anyways as I said, it's been educational. I think most people view copyright violations as minor unless you're a distributor and making a huge profit from it. Copying some music or a game is viewed much like speeding, everyone speeds a little so it's ok to speed a little. Not so! Current laws are pretty harsh, and when debated were supported by music and software companies, but opposed by scientists and academics. Guess who's got more money and guess who won.
Prison time for copying a game? Pretty harsh. Perhaps it's a good thing in a way, because when our "wonderful"companies are done outsourcing all jobs to India and China, at least prison will mean a meal and a place to stay. :p
PS. I can never connect to stratics with Firefox! Oo What's up with that LordChaos?
I for one am so glad this forum is full of national and international law experts. :p
I for one am glad that certain people don't do certain things only because they think they are illegal. It reaffirms my believe that honor is a dying art.
On high rate private servers reaching s grade(and really getting s grade gear) takes from 4-10 days depending from the class. in that time u see who is bad *** and who is good, u choose side, join clan and then take all the fun the mmo can offer. U lose pvp? Are u Pked? Who cares. 10mins and u have ur 5% back. insted of crying go and fight back! This is how i want to play.
just dont do the second class change then. if you need the game to have a higher drop or xp rate than what it was designed for, find a game with a different design. modifying or cheating a design to fit your likes/dislikes really isnt cool. to test this statement, go to a bar and try to pick up chicks with the line "hey, can you drink these beers? they will make you 10 more times as likely to think im hot. yea, i could try to pick up chicks with a normal difficulty setting, but im lazy and dont have the time for that."
on topic: there does not seem to be a correlation between bannable offenses and clauses of the EULA. and giving these people free trials to offical servers would be like giving a treat to a dog thats just bitten off your leg. im glad NC is standing up for its product, but i also agree with Unfocused and _Akjosch_ (morally, not legally) on some of the points made.
for reference: of my own estimation, i would say almost 1/3 of the devianne official server (playerwise, not characterwise) are people that used to play on private servers. they have an established presence here, and it looks as though they are here to stay.
Regarding our robotic visitors, we have been banning 3rd Party software users very aggressively over the last year and change, due to some new processes and procedures. In that time, we've banned more than 70,000 bots, and we continue to get more and more efficient each week. We have personnel that are dedicated to this duty solely.
I very appreciate, Rust, that you gave us at least single number! :)
Could I just confirm time frame for all those 70,000 banned accounts - last month? Last 3 months? Since 1 Jan 2006 ?
This does not seem to go far enough. There should be fines for the customers. Say $100 for every month of play. The truth is that the customers are just as guilty.
This is not just an L2 issue, it is an interlectual property issue. It is also a very serious social issue when the people in our society no longer respect the hard work of others, because they can steal it with no consequence.
UO ASSIST did exactly what your talking about. They would wait a year or so and then they would send them a letter stating that a record had been kept on the useage of their intelectual property i.e. UOassist program. Usually about 15 dollars per month even though the actual cost was only 15 for one time useage.
NCSoft could in theory have each member of the L2X pay for each month they were logged into the game. So when they unrealized profits....could be turned into realized profits.
I say this because as a trucker I have seen the similar practices in the trucking industry. Where one company went out of business because they undercut the competition with lower than posted charges to their customers. Lawyers in the lawsuit went after the companies involved and made them pay the difference they should have paid but did not to get the cheaper rates.
IDK maybe its just me but I am sure NCSoft do a small claims on each individual involved. Charge a minimum of 100 U.S. to cover their paperwork with additional monthly useage fees. This could be a landmark situation to deter future thefts from website owners and customers supporting those sites.
NCSoft could in theory have each member of the L2X pay for each month they were logged into the game. So when they unrealized profits....could be turned into realized profits.
Not as much as into profits lost due to bad treatment of their prospective customers, though. Well, it might not even cover their expenses on their lawyers.
I'm going to jump in along with SirE and Sov on this one. It never ceases to amaze me how people will argue a point into the ground even though they have no argument to defend in the first place. Welcome to the new world order. :p
Ignorance of the law does not an excuse make. We all know this, yet it seems like people come out of the woodwork to defend poor decisionmaking. The fact is that NCSoft owns LineageII, period. Unless they give permission to another entity to use it, distribute, change it, etc., it's is illegal. Anyone who knowingly distributes, copies, or changes it for anything other than it's original intent is wrong, period.
So true. Why argue about it? Anybody with a little bit of intelligence and common sense should be able to realize that L2 belongs to NCSoft, and nobody else has the right to run servers for it, and nobody has the right to play with a client on any other server but the official ones because the game belongs to NCSoft. The End.
So true. Why argue about it? Anybody with a little bit of intelligence and common sense should be able to realize that L2 belongs to NCSoft, and nobody else has the right to run servers for it, and nobody has the right to play with a client on any other server but the official ones because the game belongs to NCSoft. The End.
If only the actual, real-world law would work like it ... I'm sure NCSoft would be happy.
Fortunately, we have consumer protections laws, not just company protection laws over here in the EU. :)
when i first started playing l2 i was introduced to it by a friend to a private server at first i didnt no the dif between a official server and the private servers but then i herd ppl talking about the official servers and how bad it was because of bots every were and more bots then actual players just so they could sell there accounts and items for real money. allmost every person i met that played private servers came from retail and left because of the bots that basicaly overran the server.Iv bin playing on retail for about the last 2 days as a dark elf mistick and in dark elven village i can honestly say have not met a real player and iv bin on about 5 hours each time i played mind you there are alot of charecters there are about a minimum of 40 dwarfs all geared identical that go threw the dark forest spoiling the bats and march zombies and once they lvl they all go to town take off there gear and 1 by 1 comite suicide on the town guard till they are low enough to go back to work on the mobs allso all there names are like kgkdjfg. i allso met another friendly group of dark elf fighters about 20 of them all named kdfkjgn never say anything and farm allday they allso dont seem to mind when you pk them. So my question is how come a good portion of the private severs that bought the riped off ncsoft server files can code 100%working anti bot systems so people cant bot yet ncsoft the people that actualy created the server cant even keep the botting situation under control cause from my understanding alot of those players would be playing retail if it wasnt for the bots.Suggestion mayby instead of hounding down the PS and trying to get them fined or jailed mayby you should hound them down and hire them might be able to fix this bot problem thats bin going down
(p.s. i petitioned about that bot party and told a gm that there were all these bots in delfvillage and instead of actualy just going to the village he wanted me to petition again with a list of names so he could do a better investigation unfortunily i am to lazy to right down a bunch of names that consist of random letters but if you would like to pay me ill gladly do ur job ;) )
I imagine that there are better and safer ways to "just" make money than to invest it in a video game that may or may not be popular to any playerbase.
Of course they want to make money. I want to make money too. With money you can feed and clothe yourself and stay in business.
Show me one business that doesn't care about money. :)
Money is what they want, they want to bring down private servers since many may come to retail yet not ban bots because that is money per month. You said there were 40 dwarfs looking all identical? Right there they gain $600 per month, times that by number of starting villages and then add another amount for the number of dark elves that do that as well. Plus once you get higher, there are TONS of bot groups running around in each dungeon, etc.
Money is what they want, they want to bring down private servers since many may come to retail yet not ban bots because that is money per month. You said there were 40 dwarfs looking all identical? Right there they gain $600 per month, times that by number of starting villages and then add another amount for the number of dark elves that do that as well. Plus once you get higher, there are TONS of bot groups running around in each dungeon, etc.
It would probably be more profitable for them to ban bots.
You ban em, the montly fee they paid is yours.
They have to buy another account (last time I check it cost more than a montly fee) and they have to pay that montly fee again.
Your argument is not valid.
I would like to say:
Good work NCSoft for talking down that private server. May you and the FBI take down many more!
Stealing = bad
As another player said when we were ;aughing on NC Soft's "further investigation"...
NC Soft+"Further Basic Investigation"(FBI)--->work done...
rofl