I keep on hearing from players that Antharas has become almost impossible in C5. Is that true? Can someone who actually achieved antharas on C5 give me some infos about it? What has changed from C4? What is required as number of players to have a satisfactory atk.power? I have also heard about earth spells or surrender or songs that weakens him...is that correct? Did anyone of you have succed on C4 as well as on C5? that would be very interesting to know about your experience. I've heard that in my server they tried it some days ago and they were fighting for 5 hours and lost. But then in the past I;ve read notes about killing him within an hour. Why such a huge difference in compat time? Too many questions I know....:)
Thank you in advance for your answers
Well, Uprising alliance on Bartz just killed him on 12/3. They only had 65 people, course most of them are level 79+ or 99+ or something like that and they had 20 Heros...but there you go..
A big problem is that if you DC, you have no grace period where you can log back into the cave, instead you end up in Giran... woopiedoo.. especially fun when a ton of needed support classes end up in town.. that's how Lionna's last attempt ended.
Yah a couple Bartz alliances attempted Anthras prior to Uprising, and we actually were farring pretty well until the D/C's starting dropping. We eventally lost so many of our players that his hp was only going back up... If there had been a grace period, it would not have surprised me if we had beaten him...
A big problem is that if you DC, you have no grace period where you can log back into the cave, instead you end up in Giran... woopiedoo.. especially fun when a ton of needed support classes end up in town.. that's how Lionna's last attempt ended.
Yes, that is actually the biggest difficulty now in raiding Antharas. He has more hp, people do less damage - no big problem, the raid will just take longer. But when people dc (and they WILL dc !) and end up in Giran with no chance to rejoin the raid, eventually the damage output will be too low, or not enough ressers/buffers are available, or more likely a combination of both.
That is how the last Antharas raid on Hindemith ended. 200+ people started, 150 were left after two buff rounds, and most of the ressers were among the DC victims.
Until this new "feature" of being sent to Giran when you dc is removed again, the only successful Antharas raids will be of alliances who have tons of heroes and 78+ people with uber equipment, so that the DCs do not endanger the raid.
I don't really get it anyway why they introduced this new DC rule. It's not as if you can relog and then stand next to a then passive boss, rebuff, res and restart the raid. Antharas will always be aggro, even when you relog. The old rule (relog within x minutes and you reappear at the raid) made sense.
Is it possible that the change was made so that players on slower connections could have a chance to log back in without having to wait for the raid to end? It might seem to be illogical, but...
I keep on hearing from players that Antharas has become almost impossible in C5. Is that true? Can someone who actually achieved antharas on C5 give me some infos about it? What has changed from C4? What is required as number of players to have a satisfactory atk.power? I have also heard about earth spells or surrender or songs that weakens him...is that correct? Did anyone of you have succed on C4 as well as on C5? that would be very interesting to know about your experience. I've heard that in my server they tried it some days ago and they were fighting for 5 hours and lost. But then in the past I;ve read notes about killing him within an hour. Why such a huge difference in compat time? Too many questions I know....:)
Thank you in advance for your answers
They boosted his p.atk, m.def and m.atk quite alot while lowering p.def in c5. This about the same boost/nerf they did to normal bosses in c5.
What you need is like 7 really stacked groups with replacements for the dc's you got. Aeze realesed a video of us killing it in c5.
Here is the link..
You CAN'T have replacement groups! Antharas and Baium for example, once you port in and he wakes up (or earlier on Antharas I dont' remember) , no more porting in at all. So you can't get replacements in.
Frintessa, only 5 groups allowed in. I said this before, but if you lose even 1 of the extremely valuable classes like bishops with mass rez, you are super screwed with absolutely no way to replace them.
You guys simply got lucky dude. It really shouldn't be like this. If you DC you are out of the raid. Is this fair? The prior rules were fine. There was no need to change it. Until this is changed I will consider bosses like Antharas/Valakas virtually impossible. Because people DC all the time.
You CAN'T have replacement groups! Antharas and Baium for example, once you port in and he wakes up (or earlier on Antharas I dont' remember) , no more porting in at all. So you can't get replacements in.
Frintessa, only 5 groups allowed in. I said this before, but if you lose even 1 of the extremely valuable classes like bishops with mass rez, you are super screwed with absolutely no way to replace them.
A person who has never killed frintezza or the new antharas is telling me how to do it.. yea you are right its not possible to have replacements..
The DC rules are stupid, period. Everyone hates them and they prevent most servers from even attempting the big bosses. Not many people like the idea of a raid failing through no fault of their own.
You CAN'T have replacement groups! Antharas and Baium for example, once you port in and he wakes up (or earlier on Antharas I dont' remember) , no more porting in at all. So you can't get replacements in.
Frintessa, only 5 groups allowed in. I said this before, but if you lose even 1 of the extremely valuable classes like bishops with mass rez, you are super screwed with absolutely no way to replace them.
What about party member summons (I’m not sure if that’s the right name of the skill). If the person d/c’s re-add them to the party and summon them, I’m not sure if that works because my phantom summoner is to low for that skill
You CAN'T have replacement groups! Antharas and Baium for example, once you port in and he wakes up (or earlier on Antharas I dont' remember) , no more porting in at all. So you can't get replacements in.
Frintessa, only 5 groups allowed in. I said this before, but if you lose even 1 of the extremely valuable classes like bishops with mass rez, you are super screwed with absolutely no way to replace them.
What about party member summons (I’m not sure if that’s the right name of the skill). If the person d/c’s re-add them to the party and summon them, I’m not sure if that works because my phantom summoner is to low for that skill
That's not replacements, that's just extra people. And you can't do that for Frintessa where it's 5 groups max, you just can't bring in extras. Besides the ones just sitting there could just as easily DC.
Not to mention it would be foolish to have extra people doing nothing...
That's not replacements, that's just extra people. And you can't do that for Frintessa where it's 5 groups max, you just can't bring in extras. Besides the ones just sitting there could just as easily DC.
Not to mention it would be foolish to have extra people doing nothing...
re·place·ment (rĭ-plās'mənt)
1. The act or process of replacing or of being replaced; substitution.
--
They arent fighting antharas till they replace someone, so yes they are replacement people..
Sure they could dc, but better to have a extra bishop sitting on the side then losing one and have no extra? Whats foolish is fighting a boss that you dont have the proper buffs for.
Its just suicide and a waste of brez/xp..
Erm how would you enforce this? How could you make a group that can only fight Antharas if someone DC's do so????
How? We just make it and thats it.. They are just as important as the people actually fighting the boss.
I still don't get how these 'replacements' wouldn't join in.
"Oh crap we're having the $%^& kicked out of us'
"Sorry guys we're only replacements, can't help unless you DC'
Can't see that happening really.
What is a badly buffed group gonna do to help? Sure if there is a bishop there doing nothing he can rez and such.. But other people cant do much really till they get the right buffs.
Just admit it, it's completely dumb to have extra people just sitting around. Sure that would work at Antharas but not any boss with a limit on people.
And despite your dictionary version of replacement, that's still not what they are. If you are there at the raid, even sitting around doing nothing you are a raid "participant". If you were not at the raid and were brought in (which we know you can't do ), THAT would be a replacement.
Anyway why would the group be badly buffed? Any buffer char can dc just as well as a DD, one would think the extra group would have the proper party make up to cover any DC they needed to cover for.
Just admit it, it's completely dumb to have extra people just sitting around. Sure that would work at Antharas but not any boss with a limit on people.
And despite your dictionary version of replacement, that's still not what they are. If you are there at the raid, even sitting around doing nothing you are a raid "participant". If you were not at the raid and were brought in (which we know you can't do ), THAT would be a replacement.
Anyway why would the group be badly buffed? Any buffer char can dc just as well as a DD, one would think the extra group would have the proper party make up to cover any DC they needed to cover for.
Why even try to explain to someone that refuses to understand.. Just go with your badly buffed people and get wiped at major raidbosses..
No the replacement group isnt perfect, it could miss a sws, a healer, a cov buffer and so on..
Just admit it, it's completely dumb to have extra people just sitting around. Sure that would work at Antharas but not any boss with a limit on people.
And despite your dictionary version of replacement, that's still not what they are. If you are there at the raid, even sitting around doing nothing you are a raid "participant". If you were not at the raid and were brought in (which we know you can't do ), THAT would be a replacement.
Anyway why would the group be badly buffed? Any buffer char can dc just as well as a DD, one would think the extra group would have the proper party make up to cover any DC they needed to cover for.
Tell us about your solutions once ya actually defeated Antharas or Frintezza. Until then, I wouldnt call the solutions comming from the only alliance defeating Antharas in c5 dumb. But yeah. Thats me.
Just admit it, it's completely dumb to have extra people just sitting around. Sure that would work at Antharas but not any boss with a limit on people.
And despite your dictionary version of replacement, that's still not what they are. If you are there at the raid, even sitting around doing nothing you are a raid "participant". If you were not at the raid and were brought in (which we know you can't do ), THAT would be a replacement.
Anyway why would the group be badly buffed? Any buffer char can dc just as well as a DD, one would think the extra group would have the proper party make up to cover any DC they needed to cover for.
Admit its dumb? We're the only ally to farm Frintezza and kill Antharas in C5, we know what we're doing, you do not, take a seat, here you go _/.
Not everyone's meant to do the 2nd hardest raid in the game. The DC's are gay but evidently NC wasn't creative enough to make the raid difficult in other ways.
If people want to argue with the people who actually do it about how to do it, you must have a lot of free time, and when it comes to spending your time doing something, you're about as creative as NCSoft in deciding what you're going to do.
Whether or not you killed it wasn't my point, my point was that it makes no sense to bring people that do nothing but sit in the event of a DC because the game design is wacked beyond belief. I mean seriously is there any other game out there that does this?
Of course its moronic to boot people back to Giran or Goddard or whatever the second you drop server, so GG, who [censored] cares, it's all stupid game design.
Incidently we got Frintessa (final form) down to 10% health before the dc's kicked our *** too. You just can't replace 10+ people if it's so many key people vanishing.
Whether or not you killed it wasn't my point, my point was that it makes no sense to bring people that do nothing but sit in the event of a DC because the game design is wacked beyond belief. I mean seriously is there any other game out there that does this?
Of course its moronic to boot people back to Giran or Goddard or whatever the second you drop server, so GG, who [censored] cares, it's all stupid game design.
Incidently we got Frintessa (final form) down to 10% health before the dc's kicked our *** too. You just can't replace 10+ people if it's so many key people vanishing.
Didn't read your post, but actually kill these bosses before giving us tips, ty.
The DC's are gay but evidently NC wasn't creative enough to make the raid difficult in other ways.
While I may not have participated in the specific raids being talked about here, I do have experience with high level raids in another MMO. I'm not impressed by raids that throw numbers at the boss; I'd be more impressed if you were able to do it with fewer specialty players and as few groups as possible.
Edit: Why is it always the responsibilty of the game designer to make something challenging?
The DC's are gay but evidently NC wasn't creative enough to make the raid difficult in other ways.
While I may not have participated in the specific raids being talked about here, I do have experience with high level raids in another MMO. I'm not impressed by raids that throw numbers at the boss; I'd be more impressed if you were able to do it with fewer specialty players and as few groups as possible.
Didn't read your post, but actually kill these bosses before giving us tips, ty.
Sorry, wether you have actually killed them or not doesn't have any relevancy to the topics brought up.
Wether you can bring alternate chars on other machines, borrowed characters or *cough*clients in there doesn't belong whatsoever in a discussion about game mechanics for regularly played characters.
Didn't read your post, but actually kill these bosses before giving us tips, ty.
Sorry, wether you have actually killed them or not doesn't have any relevancy to the topics brought up.
Wether you can bring alternate chars on other machines or *cough*clients in there doesn't belong whatsoever in a discussion about game mechanics for regularly played characters.
You can do that, or just have played characters wait in a replacement group, I'm pretty sure we went over this already.
And of course it has relevance to the discussion considering we have the experience in successfully doing these bosses. What are you on buddy?
You can do that, or just have played characters wait in a replacement group, I'm pretty sure we went over this already.
Ah yes, you join in actual people on their actual characters in a Frintessa raid that does nothing but sit there waiting for someone to DC instead of actually participating in the raid...makes sense.
You can do that, or just have played characters wait in a replacement group, I'm pretty sure we went over this already.
Ah yes, you join in actual people on their actual characters in a Frintessa raid that does nothing but sit there waiting for someone to DC instead of actually participating in the raid...makes sense.
Considering these DC horror stories exist that you guys keep blabbing about, it sure does make sense.
Guess I should read it before saying I didn't read it next time then. :p
That would have looked better anyway :P
I guess if you can do the limit bosses with less than the limit, like Frintessa with 3 or 4 parties then do-nothing spares will work. Obviously it does.
But there are plenty of setups that CAN do the boss if you didn't get unlucky and get screwed and lose critical people. Raids should not fail because of this. A grace period of 5-10 mins is not unreasonable.
Well, to some people they aren't such horror stories since many of the DC's don't happen on the bad clients.
Otherwise, replacements (as stated above) wouldn't be immune to disconnects either. And as she stated if you can get enough people or enough strength it can be done at non-limited big raids like Antharas, but again designing a game around actual players disconnects or bad clients is rather silly.
Guess I should read it before saying I didn't read it next time then. :p
That would have looked better anyway :P
I guess if you can do the limit bosses with less than the limit, like Frintessa with 3 or 4 parties then do-nothing spares will work. Obviously it does.
But there are plenty of setups that CAN do the boss if you didn't get unlucky and get screwed and lose critical people. Raids should not fail because of this. A grace period of 5-10 mins is not unreasonable.
I agree that there should be a grace period, I still don't understand why there wouldn't be except to make the raid harder.
If they wanted to do that, they might as well put in a grace period and give the boss mob a power to randomly teleport people off every now and then, at least it would make more sense gamewise then :p
Eh well Zaken does that but at least it's not back to town
I thought that "feature" was implemented because people were cheating some how, like porting in for antharas, logging out, porting more in, etc. You'd think there would be a better way though, like stopping the port ins at x number of ports.
I'd like to see the drop list from Uprising's raid on Antharas. That would prove this point one way or the other.....
Antharas Earring itself isn't worth it? Everyone in UR is already in S grade, the other drops don't really matter, but it was probably a few bil in drops, but nothing god-like.
I'd like to see the drop list from Uprising's raid on Antharas. That would prove this point one way or the other.....
Antharas Earring itself isn't worth it? Everyone in UR is already in S grade, the other drops don't really matter, but it was probably a few bil in drops, but nothing god-like.
The earing might be worth it but I hear that it doens't always drop, so yeah, I'd still like to the drop list......
I'd like to see the drop list from Uprising's raid on Antharas. That would prove this point one way or the other.....
Antharas Earring itself isn't worth it? Everyone in UR is already in S grade, the other drops don't really matter, but it was probably a few bil in drops, but nothing god-like.
The earing might be worth it but I hear that it doens't always drop, so yeah, I'd still like to the drop list......
Didn't read your post, but actually kill these bosses before giving us tips, ty.
Sorry, wether you have actually killed them or not doesn't have any relevancy to the topics brought up.
Wether you can bring alternate chars on other machines or *cough*clients in there doesn't belong whatsoever in a discussion about game mechanics for regularly played characters.
You can do that, or just have played characters wait in a replacement group, I'm pretty sure we went over this already.
Do you even bother thinking, by all accounts I'd imagine you are sitting there randomly typing in characters and just keep getting lucky enough to form actual words.
If you're going to bring extra people, what is the difference between having them sitting there doing nothing and having them attack with everyone else? Oh right, about several thousand extra damage per second. There is no reason why you'd ever want to bring in people and just have them seit there when they could be actually doing something even if there purpose is to be there because you need more people to compensate for the number of people being disconnected. Since you cannot replace people who are disconnected, you need to start with more to make sure you don't reach a point where you don't have enough people. Of course there is also the fact that having more people increases the likelihood that someone is going to be disconnected, which very well might outwieght the benefit of bringing more people.
And once they do attack, are they extra people or are they just more people?
Rather than saying bring replacements, just come out and say bring more people.
Didn't read your post, but actually kill these bosses before giving us tips, ty.
Sorry, wether you have actually killed them or not doesn't have any relevancy to the topics brought up.
Wether you can bring alternate chars on other machines or *cough*clients in there doesn't belong whatsoever in a discussion about game mechanics for regularly played characters.
You can do that, or just have played characters wait in a replacement group, I'm pretty sure we went over this already.
Do you even bother thinking, by all accounts I'd imagine you are sitting there randomly typing in characters and just keep getting lucky enough to form actual words.
If you're going to bring extra people, what is the difference between having them sitting there doing nothing and having them attack with everyone else? Oh right, about several thousand extra damage per second. There is no reason why you'd ever want to bring in people and just have them seit there when they could be actually doing something even if there purpose is to be there because you need more people to compensate for the number of people being disconnected. Since you cannot replace people who are disconnected, you need to start with more to make sure you don't reach a point where you don't have enough people. Of course there is also the fact that having more people increases the likelihood that someone is going to be disconnected, which very well might outwieght the benefit of bringing more people.
And once they do attack, are they extra people or are they just more people?
Rather than saying bring replacements, just come out and say bring more people.
If I'm running 3 or 4 clients on my machine, it might be kind of tough to control all of them in the middle of an antharas raid and make them do what they need to be doing to kill the boss. Especially so if, as someone mentioned, those extra accounts are just backup buffers/rezzers or other critical classes.
I myself would just have the extras sit off to the side in case my main DC's or we lose a critical class - like a Bish.. then I could switch clients to the one we need and go to work on that one.
Didn't read your post, but actually kill these bosses before giving us tips, ty.
Sorry, wether you have actually killed them or not doesn't have any relevancy to the topics brought up.
Wether you can bring alternate chars on other machines or *cough*clients in there doesn't belong whatsoever in a discussion about game mechanics for regularly played characters.
You can do that, or just have played characters wait in a replacement group, I'm pretty sure we went over this already.
Do you even bother thinking, by all accounts I'd imagine you are sitting there randomly typing in characters and just keep getting lucky enough to form actual words.
If you're going to bring extra people, what is the difference between having them sitting there doing nothing and having them attack with everyone else? Oh right, about several thousand extra damage per second. There is no reason why you'd ever want to bring in people and just have them seit there when they could be actually doing something even if there purpose is to be there because you need more people to compensate for the number of people being disconnected. Since you cannot replace people who are disconnected, you need to start with more to make sure you don't reach a point where you don't have enough people. Of course there is also the fact that having more people increases the likelihood that someone is going to be disconnected, which very well might outwieght the benefit of bringing more people.
And once they do attack, are they extra people or are they just more people?
Rather than saying bring replacements, just come out and say bring more people.
The diffrence is they will die alot without cov/sws (main reasons why you can't put up another party). This makes them quite useless and they end up costing alot to keep going.
So instead they sit on the side and are a great addition to the raid when people actually do DC.
Didn't read your post, but actually kill these bosses before giving us tips, ty.
Sorry, wether you have actually killed them or not doesn't have any relevancy to the topics brought up.
Wether you can bring alternate chars on other machines or *cough*clients in there doesn't belong whatsoever in a discussion about game mechanics for regularly played characters.
You can do that, or just have played characters wait in a replacement group, I'm pretty sure we went over this already.
Do you even bother thinking, by all accounts I'd imagine you are sitting there randomly typing in characters and just keep getting lucky enough to form actual words.
If you're going to bring extra people, what is the difference between having them sitting there doing nothing and having them attack with everyone else? Oh right, about several thousand extra damage per second. There is no reason why you'd ever want to bring in people and just have them seit there when they could be actually doing something even if there purpose is to be there because you need more people to compensate for the number of people being disconnected. Since you cannot replace people who are disconnected, you need to start with more to make sure you don't reach a point where you don't have enough people. Of course there is also the fact that having more people increases the likelihood that someone is going to be disconnected, which very well might outwieght the benefit of bringing more people.
And once they do attack, are they extra people or are they just more people?
Rather than saying bring replacements, just come out and say bring more people.
If I'm running 3 or 4 clients on my machine, it might be kind of tough to control all of them in the middle of an antharas raid and make them do what they need to be doing to kill the boss. Especially so if, as someone mentioned, those extra accounts are just backup buffers/rezzers or other critical classes.
I myself would just have the extras sit off to the side in case my main DC's or we lose a critical class - like a Bish.. then I could switch clients to the one we need and go to work on that one.
Ondbey never had a problem "box'ing" as many toons as they wanted when they farmed Antharas until they all got banned.
It's not that hard to control anything on your box'd toons, Lineage 2 has macro's that help well for dances, buffs, etc.
Didn't read your post, but actually kill these bosses before giving us tips, ty.
Sorry, wether you have actually killed them or not doesn't have any relevancy to the topics brought up.
Wether you can bring alternate chars on other machines or *cough*clients in there doesn't belong whatsoever in a discussion about game mechanics for regularly played characters.
You can do that, or just have played characters wait in a replacement group, I'm pretty sure we went over this already.
Do you even bother thinking, by all accounts I'd imagine you are sitting there randomly typing in characters and just keep getting lucky enough to form actual words.
If you're going to bring extra people, what is the difference between having them sitting there doing nothing and having them attack with everyone else? Oh right, about several thousand extra damage per second. There is no reason why you'd ever want to bring in people and just have them seit there when they could be actually doing something even if there purpose is to be there because you need more people to compensate for the number of people being disconnected. Since you cannot replace people who are disconnected, you need to start with more to make sure you don't reach a point where you don't have enough people. Of course there is also the fact that having more people increases the likelihood that someone is going to be disconnected, which very well might outwieght the benefit of bringing more people.
And once they do attack, are they extra people or are they just more people?
Rather than saying bring replacements, just come out and say bring more people.
Mmmm I think the thing that we're having a hard time explaining is that for raids like Antharas, we have extras who don't fit into the perfect groups, and perfect groups are often needed to not die from the attacks of the raid boss. Like... we have 6 groups but let's say we have 2 extra healers on, 3 bds, and 2 archers.
Would they make a good group by themselves? No, they'd just be one shot without SWS songs and buffs. So, as the situation is usually very similar to that scenario, we just keep them all in one group in a corner so they don't get aggro. Then if someone d/c's they can hopefully be replaced by someone in that group. Sure, a tiny bit of extra damage potential is there, but it's not worth the brezzes.
And finally, like I've said before: Until you actually do the bosses we do, like Antharas, your input is going to be received based on what it actually is. Just everyday opinions. We have no problems doing these bosses, and sure other ways may be possible, but no need to fix something that isn't broken.
And if you're actually arguing about what we call the replacements, (other than the fact that you'd then be petty, and annoying) I blame it on the fact that we're a half-euro alliance, and you get to hear some funky stuff sometimes.
Aezen we understand how you did it. But it's mindboggling to think that the biggest threat to a raid on Antharas isn't the dragon itself. But it's the actual Lineage 2 client critical erroring, internet disconnects and many more.
Redemption Alliance on Hindemith had enough to take the dragon down but what happened? Our healers/Bishops and most support classes disconnected. What would happen if all but one of your swordsingers disconnected?
I like the idea of not fighting Antharas unless you have the CoV+SwS though. That is smart, saves on BRez's, deaths and encourages more raids because loss of exp becomes a non issue.
Didn't read your post, but actually kill these bosses before giving us tips, ty.
Sorry, wether you have actually killed them or not doesn't have any relevancy to the topics brought up.
Wether you can bring alternate chars on other machines or *cough*clients in there doesn't belong whatsoever in a discussion about game mechanics for regularly played characters.
You can do that, or just have played characters wait in a replacement group, I'm pretty sure we went over this already.
Do you even bother thinking, by all accounts I'd imagine you are sitting there randomly typing in characters and just keep getting lucky enough to form actual words.
If you're going to bring extra people, what is the difference between having them sitting there doing nothing and having them attack with everyone else? Oh right, about several thousand extra damage per second. There is no reason why you'd ever want to bring in people and just have them seit there when they could be actually doing something even if there purpose is to be there because you need more people to compensate for the number of people being disconnected. Since you cannot replace people who are disconnected, you need to start with more to make sure you don't reach a point where you don't have enough people. Of course there is also the fact that having more people increases the likelihood that someone is going to be disconnected, which very well might outwieght the benefit of bringing more people.
And once they do attack, are they extra people or are they just more people?
Rather than saying bring replacements, just come out and say bring more people.
This was my thought too - but some people seem to utterly immune to common sense I diddn't see the point in trying to explain.
And I can't see Antharas drops being called worthless, well maybe to those who got their nice OEd S grade with a credit card and a mouse click all the A she drops wouldn't be very appealing.
If Uprising explained how they thought about extras in the first post, this thread would be 3 pages shorter! /mallet
I'm certain the DC thing is a BUG! HAHA! Programmers keep breaking stuff..
The other theory, after playing L2 for almost 3 years, is that anything that is LOGICAL to most people, NC Soft doesn't implement/fix. Or if they find something logical, they break it.. then there is balance in the force again. One look at how buffs and ranged classes work is proof enough!