IMO there is an odious breed of PK on Lineage2 around which NCSoft should seriously consider amending policy. I'm not talking about the PKer who flags you in challenge and you can decide whether or not to fight. I'm not talking about the formal challenges you see in the area shouts, and I'm not talking about the people who bot-kill or defend their turf in Catacombs or Necropolises. I'm also obviously not talking about Clan Wars or Castle Sieges.
I'm talking about predatory PKers. To me these have typically been C-grade or even B-grade archers who sneak into the Execution Grounds, Cruma Marshlands or other places near the ever-notorious Floran lands, and kill your poor D-grade in 1-3 shots before you know what is happening. Without warning, without consent, typically in an ambush fashion.
This is much more of a personal violation. Losing XP to some bozo getting his jollies over killing people without warning 15 levels below their own is just morally and ethically treasonable. Yes, my clan responds quickly to retaliate, but typically the coward has swiftly run/logged off after some p0wn taunt or brag about his new PK number.
What do other people feel about this? I would like to see something like - Reds have their "dots" appear on everyone's map - like party members. Or are announced in a shout whenever entering a new territory. Or are banned from attacking a player 10 levels under their own - or incur more karma penalty. Or perhaps reds are guaranteed to drop everything they own if they have killed someone 10 levels under. Things like that.
This is supposed to be an enjoyable game. Yes, it has violence, and yes, there is a place for PvP , but I think there is a breed of predatory PK that is odious and it is in NCSoft's interest to retaliate against, or people paying their honest monthly fee will become discouraged with unwelcome behavior by some immature (and frankly cowardly) goofballs.
I got PKed before I even made it to my starter town when I first began playing. It's really not that big of a deal these days. Find another hunting spot.
I've run into this; the kicker is, I got PKed by the same guy two different times in 5 minutes. The first time he did it himself, the second time his summoned pet did it. I wasn't clanned at the time, or I would have had them deal with him. What would be nifty is if NC could do for PKers like is done for the player holding the Demonic Sword, though instead of a world wide announcement, the PKer anouncement is only made in the area he happens to be in.
it wont change as they are paying the same fee's you are to play how they choose so long as it doesnt break the EULAs. best thing to do is either make high level friends or move to a different hunting area. (hell if your on hinde, drop me a PM I like dropping perma reds if I am free)
I used to like the feeling i would get when I knew there was open pk'ing. It kept me on my toes. Caused me to team up more often. I kept a list of names in hopes that someday I would get revenge. I actually did one time. It was great. Now, this game is sooo carebear its rediculous. If someone get mad because they actually got ambushed, i say try another game. Getting ganged is so rare nowadays it almost not even fun anymore. I guess I could declare war on some other clan. No, I cant. No one actually wants to war anymore. If you get ambushed, go somewhere else or hunt with friends.
You're both making this too big of a deal. I was clanned and got PKed a LONG while back and didn't really care (my CL demanded that I tell her the PKers name, though). I just decided to find another place to grind. Honestly, if you know a PKer is there, go somewhere else or get help. Going back alone is silly. Getting mad for being PKed again, at the same spot, is even more silly.
I have no problem with getting PKed if I have a chance to at least get one attack in before I fall. What bugs me is when a 40+ Warlock or whatever oneshots me in an area where the foes are dark blue to him. It happened to me on my Wizard when I was level 15, while I was hunting on Windmill Hill outside of Gludin.
And this is really my point. They don't do it fairly and the current system shields them, obscures them, and thus encourages them. If they appeared as a red dot on everyone's screen or were area-announced, it would take a bit more courage to do this. I'm willing to defend myself, I'm willing to call my clan, but some bozo giggling behind a tree, then one-shot or three-shot nuking someone 15 levels below his own, then skipping off is just ******ed.
Maybe there would be a way to post "Wanted" posters or something? I don't know how such things would be vetted. My clan does post on their private forum a list of PK players. Woe to them when they hit the bigger towns!
Believe me, the system in no way shields a pk'r. Except for Floran. But ya know. A red needs at least one place to go sit down at when its time to go have a smoke break. Dont want none of you nice guys sneakin up on me ya know. ;)
ok Im just kidding about that. Just go level. About 2 weeks ago I thought I should go to windmill hill in my B grade toon. Im standing around minding my business. Wearing all B grade gear when this red runs up and starts attacking. I proceeded to kick his [censored]. Just get some levels and go rough up some reds a bit. Believe me thats a good time to.
but some bozo giggling behind a tree, then one-shot or three-shot nuking someone 15 levels below his own, then skipping off is just ******ed.
Nos is not ******ed. :p However, I kinda agree with this. I've never understood the mentality. It's like taking a level 60 toon to TI to kill elpies. Nevertheless, there are plenty of penalties for being red.
Call for help, find someplace else to grind, move on. They won't go to bigger towns. I can't remember the last time I saw a PKer near Giran. I'm sure it happens on occasions but they don't usually hunt there. We've all dealt with them and moved past it.
Hey Tavi, I know how you feel. It's very frustrating when trying
to lvl up and you don't go around doing it to others. I usually get
pk'd by nukers, once by an Orc, once by someone with a summon
that looked like a Rakeclaw Imp that one shot me for over 2000
damage during the medal event. Never even got to hit back
except for the Orc :p
So I came up with some tactics to try, only one of which
worked. The successfull one was put an obstacle between you
and the attacker. I was just outside the east Dion gate by some
trees and got nuked once, was able to move enough to put a
tree between me and the guy and he couldn't hit me again. He
tried moving around the tree and I moved also just enough
and it worked for awhile, like Frodo evading the Cave Troll in
Moria just before the Troll stuck him with the spear. I got tired
of it and ran for Dion and he got me in two more blasts!
Another one is run zig-zag. Might work for nimble characters
but an Orc is too slow. My 3rd tactic was equip a blunt and hit
with Stun, but I never got close enough to try it, they were
probably resistant to Stun anyway.
Only time I got pk'd near Giran was on the PTS. Also, I
probably shouldn't reveal this but I haven't gotten pk'd in the
Floran Ag. Area west of Dion yet :)
I'd just like to see it changed so that its not so easy to wash off the pk's with the sin eater quest. Its almost a non-penalty right now.
So what do you say to the guy who takes one for the team and clears a room of bots so his friends can level?
PK'ing is a viable way to play. Everyone (ok most people) wants a world where you can attack and get attacked at anytime, yet they whine about pkers. Get over it, find another spot, or have back up ready.
It's been like this for ages, we've all learned to deal with it. Kain has/had a few famous ones too, like sawa, Scabies, Jesimiel.. that's all they DID was pk in AC, Cruma, EG, around Dion, RoD, RoA.
Hell one time I took my high level to EG looking for a red, and ran into even more reds, it was nuts.. one even had a buffer helping them.
It's hardcore open pvp, that's just the way it is.
Wow.. I mean realy.. Wow!... someone complaining in an open PVP game about PVP? Honestly even though I don't condone or like gankers, they are a blast to hunt. I love taking out a whiny juvinile red that cant **** it with someone his own level. But complain about them? Bah.. go play some care bear game then. Frankly that carebear playstyle has allready ruined enough other games out there, like DAOC for instance.
Heck, I remember back in C1 getting ganked at least dayly, if not hourly on some occasions. So to complain about a solo ganker playing hit and run realy just wants me to say the preverbial "Cry more n00b". And no.. I am not trying to be mean here, just honest that the risk inherint in an open pvp game needs to mean something. After all, there is now a cursed sword just for that purpose (eg.. original design, not what they are used for). And another one on the way in Interlude. Why would NC soft introduce a PVP weapon such as this if they wanted everyone to be carebear? Conflict and using ones intelligence to avoid a higher level red are the keys here. Not whining and complaining "woah is me".
i believe he's complaining about the fact that the reds actualy run when they think they might die. When i was feeling evil (gets your addrenaline up :p) i knew better to stay away from people in my grade that actualy had equipment lol
its low i know, but it's exciting for everyone involved man! unless of course the pkers are *donkeys* about it and laugh at how noobyish you are. then you can get mad at them by all means. but it's still just a game remember
Again. Read my original. PvP is cool. I love it. Wars. Arenas. Olympics. Sieges. Rockin. At least in Diablo you had a Town Portal if you didn't want to deal with it. PvP is fine. Predatory PK is juvenile.
Yay, your 43rd level nuker can drop my 27th level buffer in one shot. How awesome for you. Log off and hide before my clan leaders get here.
Thank you for the comments and thoughts on it. I've been working more around Giran now anyway, so it's all good. But others in my clan keep getting it as they shift from Gludio-stuff to Dion-stuff, particularly between the stairs in EG and in Branded and Heretics.
I'm merely suggesting that perhaps the game should lean behavior more toward clean PvP and more severely punish predatory PK. These people have the moral fiber of the Columbine shooters.
Thank you for the comments and thoughts on it. I've been working more around Giran now anyway, so it's all good. But others in my clan keep getting it as they shift from Gludio-stuff to Dion-stuff, particularly between the stairs in EG and in Branded and Heretics.
I'm merely suggesting that perhaps the game should lean behavior more toward clean PvP and more severely punish predatory PK. These people have the moral fiber of the Columbine shooters.
nope
your solution is written in your own post man
you've just identified the place where they hang around and yet you continue to go there
ask ppl what it was like hunting in abandoned camp 2 chronicles ago and id hate to think what prelude was like
This reply is gonna sound really mean but I don't intend it that way at all.
Imo you've learned a valuable L2 lesson--and you've learned it at a time when the risk and rework is comparatively minimal.
Anyone who has been playing any amount of time at all has had to regain exp from getting pk'd. Not so long ago, you could drop your stuff (which gave reds an actual reason to be red).
No one was anymore upset by the hit-and-run punks preying on the starter areas that I was........lmao, I started last Jan (still C2 for a short time) and there were teams of what I now know to be c-grade nukers running through Talking Island for crying out loud!
It still makes me laugh to remember how dammed mad I got! There was 2 days when I was trying to hit lvl 20 that they killed me so much I had to hit 20 four different times.
That poor knight of mine--I came to believe everyone on Lionna had killed him at least once!
You may as well learn at lvl 15 (10 is better) that there is NO EQUAL PVP in this so-called PVP game. At least not outside of the arena!
This mythical equal-PvP doesn't happen in clan wars, random country-side ganking--not hardly ever.
This will never change--when u are in C-grade you will be slaughtered by B-grade toons. When you are in B-grade you will only be confronted by A-grade toons and so on.
Just telling you how it's gonna be, Tavi............
The stronger prey on the weak. The true griefers NEVER choose anyone their own level unless it's an accident.
Keep leveling, keep playing, make a list, learn to laugh, consider it 'involuntary deleveling' that will make you richer---whatever gets you through the day.
You don't ever have to 'like' dying--but you do need to understand it's gonna happen to you in this game. It's a good idea to come to terms with the fact that players you can't possibly touch are gonna kill your toon whenever they feel like it.
If it's any consolation--it happens less now and dying has less risk attached to it than before.
Hang in there.
I got PKed before I even made it to my starter town when I first began playing. It's really not that big of a deal these days. Find another hunting spot.
I got PKed before I even made it to my starter town when I first began playing. It's really not that big of a deal these days. Find another hunting spot.
However, that is the game. This is an open pvp/pk/scamming/full frontal/in your face game.
In prelude there were so many higher lvls who just raised their eyebrows and all the new players would die.
That is the game.
This complaint has been going on since day one. It's not that I don't empathize but we all have been pk'ed once or even many times. You shrug it off and go on.
You make your list of people who you will get back and hopefully they will be in the game when you get high enough.
NC should NOT make any change or stance against this. If they however wanted to make a consensual pvp server (like they have in Korea) then fine. I'm always for alternate modes of play because choice is good.
But to fundamentally change this game that takes that bit of danger away. Well, that is not this game.
As far as red players logging off. Well, they are cowards. The reds I've most respected would actually run away. It was up to you to get them. And there used to be plenty of them.
Yes, there are scummy people in this game. Quite frankly, some of the scummiest people I've ever met are in this game. But you are going to find that in all online games. It's just that in this game they can grief and kill you.
So don't let it bother you, level, become strong and exact your vengeance.
I promise you, getting your revenge on a pk'er is very, very sweet.
Here's to more power to you. ;)
(and also the advice that you should read reviews. I knew exactly what this game was about before I bought it. I only bought it with the idea that I would check it out and only stay a week. That was back in the start of June '04 :) )
These people have the moral fiber of the Columbine shooters.
This is completely innacurate. I sat in my house watching these kids run out of the school. I didnt think it was cool at all. I still dont mind some pk though. I guess some of us can tell the difference between someones life and someones life in a game. :confused:
I had a different perspective; the only MMO I seriously played before L2 was the old, old, oldschool UO, back when there was no penalty at all for PKing.
My thought on finishing my first day of L2 was "wow, this game is great, I only got PKd 3 times!".
Well,Tavi's idea looks fine on me,on the part of making it so if the PKs are 10-15lvls highr than the PKed toon,they suffer more penalties/karma/whatever...
As for the Zariche Sword that's been mentioned....it's silly to even think they made the sword so u are able to PK toons 15 lvls lower than you...(the reason Tavi is complaining)...
They made the sword so the holder can use it against ppl of the same lvl as he...why else would they raise your CP/HP to those lvls and why else would they not allow losing xp...
Coz they want a B-A-S grader holding that weapon,to be able to attack someone his own grade and have a PvP without the fear of losing that hard earned XP on those lvls...that's the reason they probably will introduce more "demonic" weapons...
It's a free PvP game and they're trying their best to make it actually be fun to PvP...
Hunting down a toon 15 or more lvls lower than you is plainly coward and stupid...when u're in early lvls (till 40lvl i.e.) u can get that xp back quite fast...let me see what a 60lvl would say if he got pked by a 75lvl toon,and losing xp coz some "not carebear" thinks it's fun...they would be ****** as hell...and to the "easy" answer of "Get your clannies to find him and hunt him down",tell me how easy that would be when most of the PKrs run away as soon as they see an angry crowd or how fast they d/c...and they usually don't use that toon for quite a while so noone's gonna stay and wait for that toon to re-login...
That's the reason they PK in areas 15 lvls lower than them....coz even if they login back into an area of aggro mobs,when noone is around any more,they would not have trouble eliminating those deep blue-lame for their lvl mobs
As for the Zariche Sword that's been mentioned....it's silly to even think they made the sword so u are able to PK toons 15 lvls lower than you...(the reason Tavi is complaining)...
They made the sword so the holder can use it against ppl of the same lvl as he...why else would they raise your CP/HP to those lvls and why else would they not allow losing xp...
Coz they want a B-A-S grader holding that weapon,to be able to attack someone his own grade and have a PvP without the fear of losing that hard earned XP on those lvls...that's the reason they probably will introduce more "demonic" weapons...
Exactly.. my point about Zarishe is that PVP as a red is encouraged to some degree by NCsoft. Eg.. making a villan for folks to hunt, etc.. My point on Zarishe had nothing to do with PKing lowbee's.
CLEAN PVP???!!! The game is good cause you have to watch your back. Any toon can be a potential threat. You will get owned and it should fuel the fire that makes you want to grind to a decent lvl for some payback. You get lvls and rightoues atonement or quit game. There is only life and death no 'clean' area inbetween.
Tavi's post is clearly on PKrs hunting down lowbies...he mentioned as clearly as I that PKing is part of the game...
What is unacceptable,at least for me,is PKing lowbies...what's the point of going to the starter areas and PK toons???
And don't give me the "they can get that XP back in no time" arguement or "it's an open PvP game"...
I'm well aware of the game I'm playing....but some ppl are lame of taking advantage of the existing system and then bragging on irritating other players...
I like having reds in the game. One of the funnest times I have had playing Lin 2 was when some lowbies in the clan were lvling in AC and getting pked by a LvL 52+ archer. I put bronze armor on my lvl 66 DA and hunting. It is quite fun watching a PKer find out that there target is not a lvl 25 knight but a high lvl knight hitting them with a Absps-ed Drain Health for 1k+ damge because they don't have their Jewls on. That is how you deal with Pkers. If you don't have a Clanie to do that for you, then you need to get in a better clan and quit saying how unfair it is.
There are clans in the game for a reason. Fights are never fair. It is just making sure you are on the giving end.
Of course they aren't going to "hunt" where people can/will fight back!
Are you sure?
On Teon, I killed quite a few PKers in their 30ties on Windmill Hill - with my level 17 human mystic. I'm not sure how it is on other servers, but on Teon, the PKers suck really, really badly. :( Pretty much the only time they have a chance of killing me is when I'm on my Dwarf - or not paying attention.
i was like SirE, killed before i made it into town on my first day, this game is a HARD CORE game.
getting killed 2-5 times a day (prelude) was normal...I learned fast how to play my character, and have a constant 360 view of the world. my camera never stops. and i still get pked now.
suck it up, next time you're pked have some bored clanies go to the stop and camp for a bit.
don't complaine about being killed cause you're a lower level, ofcourse that's what's going to happen. PKers kill lower levels. FACT!. reds kill bots and suchs.
just move on, brush it off...you'll need the SP anyway :)
Tavi's post is clearly on PKrs hunting down lowbies...he mentioned as clearly as I that PKing is part of the game...
What is unacceptable,at least for me,is PKing lowbies...what's the point of going to the starter areas and PK toons???
And don't give me the "they can get that XP back in no time" arguement or "it's an open PvP game"...
I'm well aware of the game I'm playing....but some ppl are lame of taking advantage of the existing system and then bragging on irritating other players...
I don't think that anyone is saying that these people are heroes. They are lame. No doubt about that.
But that is the game NC has given us. It is what it is.
It's like me playing neighborhood football in high school.
Yes, several of my friends were very large people. Does that mean that I try to make some other rule so that they only have to touch me as opposed to tackle? No. I either play the game by the rules or not play.
This has always been the game. Many people are playing this game because of these rules. Not to say that they all want to pk someone many lvls lower. But people do like that danger and the open game play.
So, if players want to ask for alternate rules servers, then fine. That makes more sense to me then changing the entire game and therefore changing the meaning of the game.
You know though--i've never considered making penalties for truely lower ganking before someone mentioned it above.
Not sure how you would apply that idea--but the general concept is already in the game. You can't take your b-grade tank and hit a lvl 24 Raid Boss.
The game identifies that as an unfair advantage. If you are more than 9 levels above the raid boss you get DIS-advantaged for hitting it.
I suppose something along those lines could be tried.....
bah--don't know. too early to think this morning.....
just gang up on the punks or ask someone else to kill the griefer as a favor or forget the whole thing and move on as I said before....
I had a different perspective; the only MMO I seriously played before L2 was the old, old, oldschool UO, back when there was no penalty at all for PKing.
My thought on finishing my first day of L2 was "wow, this game is great, I only got PKd 3 times!".
Ari, dont you miss those old UO days? Ahhh, I sure loved that game. Reds running around just made my hands sweat. I remember calling my buddy on the phone just so we could hunt those guys down. All the memories, so nice. :D
My friend just told me how back in C1, when you could drop your weapon at any time you died, he borrowed his friends top ng bow ( :p ) and felt like a killing-machine.
So he got into pvp and attacked some guy while the guy was starting to flash purple to white and ofcourse he killed him when he was white - Bam! Red! Since this other guy had friends also they all started to hit him.. he kept running and running same time in the middle of the night calling to all his friends on sellphone to come and help him so he wont drop his bow :)
Yep.. adrenaline rush...
Felt same good when we killed A-grade PKer while self being mid C and he dropped his +3 Soulbow with CS. B-grade guaranteed for us :)
Too bad it probably wont happen anymore cause of the no-dropping rule
Dude, back in c2 i got PK 8 in the same day. I would never forget that sunday morning..good time back them. But i got up and lev my a*ss an good player. well, his not active right now. but man that was some good time back an c2. when red where all over the place....we need them back.
My friend just told me how back in C1, when you could drop your weapon at any time you died, he borrowed his friends top ng bow ( :p ) and felt like a killing-machine.
So he got into pvp and attacked some guy while the guy was starting to flash purple to white and ofcourse he killed him when he was white - Bam! Red! Since this other guy had friends also they all started to hit him.. he kept running and running same time in the middle of the night calling to all his friends on sellphone to come and help him so he wont drop his bow :)
Yep.. adrenaline rush...
Felt same good when we killed A-grade PKer while self being mid C and he dropped his +3 Soulbow with CS. B-grade guaranteed for us :)
Too bad it probably wont happen anymore cause of the no-dropping rule
Actually, Reds can still drop, (above 5 pk's) so go nuts. ;)
The thing is, what is the difference between a lvl 20 offing a lvl 5 or 10 for that matter and a lvl 76 offing a lvl 56?
Short of making an arbitrary "you cannot kill 'x' lvls below you" the game is always going to have players more powerful than you. Heck, what about the Heroes who stand outside Dion pking the 20+ players?
This game is about power and allies (be they clan or alliance or just friends).
Anything else will just be a different game. I can see people complaining about this when the game first came out, but the game has been out for 3 years, the reviews are in and it is what it is.
Here is one:
I had a guy attack me while I was standing outside of Gludio (talking to a clannie) and wearing Karmian (C grade). I was lvl 52 (B grade) but just hadn't purchased it yet.
I had ported to Cruma and a red surprised my new level 40 HE and killed her and my SE. Switched to my main subclass and went back and took him out, too bad the 3 drops were just pots and shots :/
Thats the spirit! Get some revenge. For most perma reds it seems that when they finally get dropped its a huge bruise to there ego. Some guy pk'd my summoner one day when he was about level 20. Then got mad at me because I brought my Abyss walker to take him out. He made sure to tell me that I was a noob because killing him with a higher level was not a fair fight. lol.
anyone who plays on kain knows who Scabies is, and let me say this....
whoever is the first to kill him is going to be VERY VERY weathy. reds can still drop as Sovrath said, and Scabies rocks full DC light with a soul bow. seeing as how he probably has thousands upon thousands of pk's...hed drop it all. still, noone has gotten him after like 2 years ok pking cause he knows how to force log faster than anyone ive ever seen.
pking is what makes lineage such a good game....its like one of the few games where its possible to kill someone and watch them get ****** cause they lose exp and pm you crying. a lot of ppl who posted here think pking low lvl ppl is cowardly, but its really not. imagine walking aroung with 300+mil worth of equip on and knowing that if someone kills you your gonna lose it all. it takes balls. sometimes Scabies will kill you and you dont even know where the hell hes shooting you from. at least 80% of the people who are pked by him never even get close enough to see what class he is. as much as it sucks, i still tip my hat.
LOL yeah when Scabies got me I didn't even see where he came from. I caught Jesimiel once but he force logged even with my sleep and root on him. Coward.
Well, I don't mind got pk. But here is my suggestion to put the game even more fun, can NCsoft put a board in every town, if some player get pk, they can report the pker name on the board and put some reward in. and allow other player to get the quest from the board, whoever kill the pker first, whoever get the reward...
Well, I don't mind got pk. But here is my suggestion to put the game even more fun, can NCsoft put a board in every town, if some player get pk, they can report the pker name on the board and put some reward in. and allow other player to get the quest from the board, whoever kill the pker first, whoever get the reward...
It's a great idea but so easily abusable.
Wait until the reward is sizable, then get a friend to pk you and split the money.
Agree...at least it made the players who get pk feel like they can do something about pker...
I tend to wonder if a player, who was harassed by a pker, would feel good knowing the pk'er got a friend to handle the bounty and then split the money with the pk'er so that the pk'er can buy more shots, comp bows, etc.
Archlord has a bounty system of sorts but I don't feel it fits in with this game.
i think i'll take my sr out around the lower level areas again, just to see if i can spot a pker...cause it's fun if they are focused on a lower level and don't see you comming from behind...and BAM! oh drops for me? i give them to the toon he just killed. and then they ask for their drops back, it's pretty funny
All toons above 52 should carry some d or c grade stuff when going anywhere west of giran. You know all of the people that dont want pvp would be very happy having someone try and pk them. Sure would turn alot of carebears into pvp'ers.
anyone who plays on kain knows who Scabies is, and let me say this....
whoever is the first to kill him is going to be VERY VERY weathy. reds can still drop as Sovrath said, and Scabies rocks full DC light with a soul bow. seeing as how he probably has thousands upon thousands of pk's...hed drop it all. still, noone has gotten him after like 2 years ok pking cause he knows how to force log faster than anyone ive ever seen.
pking is what makes lineage such a good game....its like one of the few games where its possible to kill someone and watch them get ****** cause they lose exp and pm you crying. a lot of ppl who posted here think pking low lvl ppl is cowardly, but its really not. imagine walking aroung with 300+mil worth of equip on and knowing that if someone kills you your gonna lose it all. it takes balls. sometimes Scabies will kill you and you dont even know where the hell hes shooting you from. at least 80% of the people who are pked by him never even get close enough to see what class he is. as much as it sucks, i still tip my hat.
Why are'nt people in the higher levels dawning some low grade stuff and trolling for this guy?
Well, I don't mind got pk. But here is my suggestion to put the game even more fun, can NCsoft put a board in every town, if some player get pk, they can report the pker name on the board and put some reward in. and allow other player to get the quest from the board, whoever kill the pker first, whoever get the reward...
They used to have a bounty board in UO, it worked pretty well. It was kind of a bragging right to see how much people would pay to have someone killed. I was on the top for only about a month or so. :confused:
Well, I don't mind got pk. But here is my suggestion to put the game even more fun, can NCsoft put a board in every town, if some player get pk, they can report the pker name on the board and put some reward in. and allow other player to get the quest from the board, whoever kill the pker first, whoever get the reward...
They used to have a bounty board in UO, it worked pretty well. It was kind of a bragging right to see how much people would pay to have someone killed. I was on the top for only about a month or so. :confused:
No idea what the numbers of the characters before him has to do with the location of the kills, though.
I expected better.
And I expected to be griefed to hell and back for fighting back. Something like you said - "Of course they aren't going to "hunt" where people can/will fight back!" - and people levelling on Windmill Hill should be easy pickings for level 30+ chars. Instead, I got easy kills.
I dunno, when I first started I was killed within the first 4 seconds, I spawned (this was a while a go, so not where you spawn now, and no gremlins etc. etc.) walked a few steps and bang...lol. Not that big of a deal because I didn't even have any exp to loose, not to mention I couldn't loose experience.
But anyway more on track. Things like this happened when I was a bit higher level (ok, like lvl 16) and they would be mean about it. And it did piss me off, but actually that was one reason I kept trying to level. I said to myself, I will become higher and kick his [censored], but yeah...leveling takes a while...so I actually forgot the name of the pker...lol.
I see why you don't like them. But that is the point, not to like them. Thats the reason why they do it. Actually I have never been pked by a random person for about over a year now. Once you get a bit higher, pks happen with faction alignment and drama, so if you ally yourself correctly and don't have a loud mouth you won't have to deal with these people, because they just don't exist.
Plus, my friend killed a red before and he dropped a strider...lol! Good for my friend, bad for the red...lol.
If you have ever been randomly pked it was probably in areas before dion...if you have never been pked yet, go to dion...after dion you just don't see it much anymore.
Plus, my friend killed a red before and he dropped a strider...lol! Good for my friend, bad for the red...lol.
Good drop!
Last time I saw a red near windmill hill he was just standing up there, talking to someone (who wasn't red). His named looked familiar (turns out he was a fairly new player) so I just moved on and killed the mobs I need for my quest.
One other time (a long long time ago), I was resting (sitting) there and a red ran up to me and said "PK okay?" I said back "I hope not" and he turned and ran off. For some reason, I still find that encounter immensely funny.
Smoking Lowbie Griefers is one of my favorite activities.
Last time I took out one of the more notorious reds in EG while he was chatting with a quartet (A grade dagger, B Grade archer, B grade warrior whowas naked and a B grade healer).
They gave the red a Brez while I was still standing there (I cannot fathom the logic behind that maneuver) And red went down again. Since I had no plans on paying for the Brez, or leaving the area (Mister Red had to tap to Floran) I wound up up +3 pvps when the archer, dagger and male exotic dancer decided to tango.
The healer refrained, so was able to rez her compatriots. GF's all around, lowbie griefer dispatched.
Forcelogging is the only thing that really bugs me about how the current system works. I can deal with BSOE's but Forcelogging really puts tannins in my wine. :confused:
Yeah it really defeats the purpose of tracking them down. I was in the AC one day on my main when I ran into two other higher levels that were chasing Jesimiel, we grouped up and split up, I ran into him, slept and rooted him and by the time I called out I had him, he had force logged.
DCing in PvP should be an instant death penalty...
After all, if it's a "normal" DC, the kind where the world stops moving around you, you can't do anything, etc. you're going to log into the world again already dead since you were stuck in the game world for a minute or so.
Let's just skip the middle-man and have the server declare you dead, party favours all around.
I don't know about PvP, but you can't log out while you are fighting NPCs until they have despawned. If PvP is the same way, the only way to actually "forcelog" is to shut the client down using Windows Task Manager; the game server wouldn't know the difference between that and a client crash.
I think people are a little confused on exactly what a 'forcelog' is.
If you disconnect or lag out during combat, your character stays in game for roughly 15 seconds before the server removes it. (Enough time to get killed or die.) You canNOT kill L2 from task manager (unless you have a 3rd party one.) And even if you do, the normal disconnect rule still applies. As far as the server is concerned they are the same.
A "Forcelog" however is something different. Basically, if your *account* logs back in *before* the 'disconnected' (or just plain logged in!) instance of your character is gone, (aka timed out.) the server will forceably remove all those disconnected character instances. This is a "forcelog". There are only two ways to achieve this, as normally, the closing and reopening of the client + logging back in takes far more time than the disconnect timer. Way #1 is to use illegal 3rd party software. For obvious reasons, this is a punishable offense if verified. Way #2 however only uses the official client. Basically, if a second instance of the client is setup and ready to login (just needing to hit the enter key) either on a seperate machine or windowed on the first, then all that the player needs to do is hit 'enter' to login on the second instance. As soon as that login hits the server, the first instance is 'forcelogged'. Hence the name. This is how those players 'get around' the normal rules regarding logout in combat mode.
Note: This only works if you are logging into the exact same account that is already logged in. (Obviously, or there would be no point for windowed mode. aka 1 account = 1 login. 2 accounts = 2 logins, 1 each.)
I was minding my own business at Talking Island. 2 dudes, one mage and one dagger flag me because i was in their "area". I did not flag back because i wasn't ready, i ran and survived.
Then I soe, get newbie buff from the newbie guide. Port back to that "area". I killed both the dagger and mage, they dont even got the chance to flag back.
I was red but it was cool . coz i have my revenge.
In another game I played you could force log from mobs, but when you came back the mob was still waiting for you and it turned into a frenzied version that would pretty much kill you for force logging.
Very cute Thalenduros... except for a squishie class on a weak PC, the time it takes to log back on is the death sentence I mentioned. On my desktop, between the client noticing it's disconnected, shutting itself down and my next chance to log in, almost 5 minutes pass.
Can I survive fifteen seconds of standing there and getting beat on? Probably.
5 minutes?
Uh. No. Really not.
Please, just stop trying.
PS: Are you seriously saying legit disconnects should make you stay as long as you can but a forcelog should still work? How much sense does that make even to you, really?
hmmm I never used to pk until the academy started. As long as I know I am not killing noobs who may quit the game it is fun to kill some high levels academy group and have them running around and chasing your. They are also with a lot of high levels so you just run in and get the academy and try to run and you dont always make it lol.
I think half the fun is having high level gear risking dropping it and then reward for the person that gets you. PK'ing is rarely something personal and sometimes I do feel bad and will leave someone alone if they are really angry otherwise its just another part of the game. In all fairness i kill all the bots I see as well as all the academies no discrimination here!
LOL...I've chased and been chased by Scabies more then once. I've had her BSOE from my DA and fought her to a standsill with my SR. Never yet killed her because of her autolog / force log or a BSOE strategy.
BTW - I am not sure she has a soulbow...I think it's a BOP...I could be wrong because I normally run 1st then come back with full buffs to fight...or she might have upgraded...I'll get her...someday.
BTW- I love it when I kill a red and they PM me asking for thier stuff back...that always makes me laugh. I've gotten rich off all the "D" grade drops (+4 Brig shield,+4 Brig set and sooo many Elven jewlery I can remember all of it..)...once I got a unanmed strider...that rocked..I still have it.. :)
To be honest, I don't know how long I would continue to play this game if my internet dropped or some reason getting DCed from the server while hunting and then logging back in to see that I lost 4-5 hours of grind time...LAME!
Not really the same thing, in my opinion. There should be some risk in being red, and if someone choses to wear expensive armor and it happens to drop, should I, or whomever picks it up, be required to give it back?
In another game I played you could force log from mobs, but when you came back the mob was still waiting for you and it turned into a frenzied version that would pretty much kill you for force logging.
LOL I remember something like this. Logout from nasty summoner mobs and hope the game crashes/reboots or else when you log back in the first thing that happens is the mob summoning you back.
To be honest, I don't know how long I would continue to play this game if my internet dropped or some reason getting DCed from the server while hunting and then logging back in to see that I lost 4-5 hours of grind time...LAME!
Not really the same thing, in my opinion. There should be some risk in being red, and if someone choses to wear expensive armor and it happens to drop, should I, or whomever picks it up, be required to give it back?
I killed a red and got a shield and jewels, D grade. I transferred them to my dwarf but logging into a dwarf makes one greedy, doesn't it?
So the dwarf PMed the red and said "I just bought your gear and am gonna crush it for shots. You want some of the crystals since it was your gear?" Red PMs back, "Sure." Dwarf PMs the red, "OK, where are you?" "NoS"
So I switch back to my hunter and kill the red again, got a +4Demon Fang and Dual 107's (and got called some names, which I thoroughly enjoied).
Moral of the story? 1. PKers have no property rights and 2. don't turn off your brain when you log into L2!
Not really the same thing, in my opinion. There should be some risk in being red, and if someone choses to wear expensive armor and it happens to drop, should I, or whomever picks it up, be required to give it back?
I killed a red and got a shield and jewels, D grade. I transferred them to my dwarf but logging into a dwarf makes one greedy, doesn't it?
So the dwarf PMed the red and said "I just bought your gear and am gonna crush it for shots. You want some of the crystals since it was your gear?" Red PMs back, "Sure." Dwarf PMs the red, "OK, where are you?" "NoS"
So I switch back to my hunter and kill the red again, got a +4Demon Fang and Dual 107's (and got called some names, which I thoroughly enjoied).
Moral of the story? 1. PKers have no property rights and 2. don't turn off your brain when you log into L2!
Wow that red guy was also pretty stupid...good job though :)
IMO there is an odious breed of PK on Lineage2 around which NCSoft should seriously consider amending policy. I'm not talking about the PKer who flags you in challenge and you can decide whether or not to fight. I'm not talking about the formal challenges you see in the area shouts, and I'm not talking about the people who bot-kill or defend their turf in Catacombs or Necropolises. I'm also obviously not talking about Clan Wars or Castle Sieges.
I'm talking about predatory PKers. To me these have typically been C-grade or even B-grade archers who sneak into the Execution Grounds, Cruma Marshlands or other places near the ever-notorious Floran lands, and kill your poor D-grade in 1-3 shots before you know what is happening. Without warning, without consent, typically in an ambush fashion.
This is much more of a personal violation. Losing XP to some bozo getting his jollies over killing people without warning 15 levels below their own is just morally and ethically treasonable. Yes, my clan responds quickly to retaliate, but typically the coward has swiftly run/logged off after some p0wn taunt or brag about his new PK number.
What do other people feel about this? I would like to see something like - Reds have their "dots" appear on everyone's map - like party members. Or are announced in a shout whenever entering a new territory. Or are banned from attacking a player 10 levels under their own - or incur more karma penalty. Or perhaps reds are guaranteed to drop everything they own if they have killed someone 10 levels under. Things like that.
This is supposed to be an enjoyable game. Yes, it has violence, and yes, there is a place for PvP , but I think there is a breed of predatory PK that is odious and it is in NCSoft's interest to retaliate against, or people paying their honest monthly fee will become discouraged with unwelcome behavior by some immature (and frankly cowardly) goofballs.
Lineage 2 is not the right game for you.
I suggest you try a different game which requires consent before a fight.
I suggest you try a different game which requires consent before a fight.
As your answer directs not only to the guy you quoted but to all who think predatory PK sux,I'll tell you this:
L2 is not the right game for YOU....it's a game u need to use your brains and obviously you don't...
There's no problem in PvPing...getting 1 or 2 shotted (PKed) though,doesn't really need ur consent....does it???
I more or less "need" open pvp to be able to enjoy mmo's. It just feels so overprotected and synthetic when I can't just bash some guy if he's being a nuisance, and it adds a whole new element of gameplay in the form of politics and negotiation. Kinda like how there is only one way to deal with conflict in Diablo and Guild Wars, but several ways to deal with it in Fallout and Lineage 2.
That said.
What bugs me about the average RPK'er is how they often don't keep their trash talking to within the game. When I'm doing my lvl20 class change quest and get pk'ed by a red lvl70 mage with an augmented staff in devotion tunic, I think "****, he got me. Maybe if I wait a few minutes or try going around that area", and move on with my business. If he starts pm'ing me the usual stuff like "lol pwned noob gg", it doesn't really hold any weight since, well, I *am* a noob at lvl20 and I did get pwned within the rules of the game.
It's when they start bringing in my parents, my real life appearance or nationality, my race, my religious or sexual orientation, and so on, that I'll get ****** off. It's just a game, keep it within the game. You are not your character. You are not your 1.5k matk. You are not your 3k crits.
Another thing that used to bug me was how you can't kill pk's because of how easy it is to log when you're at a disadvantage, but with augments now there really isn't much point anyway.
It was before numbers on the CP bar so C3. I don't believe I made this char in C2.
The pm text goes:
me: geezes you're still going at it?
you: of course.. best fun in game
me: on noobs of course
you: uhhh nope
you: just if I am passing through then yes
me: lol you pass through all day long
you: BUT I don't just kill noobs :)
you: and not ALL day.. jeesh I sleep occasionaly
me: LOL well you got me there. Well I needed bsps in town anyway :P
I remember where I was too, I was sitting afk by the stones south of Gludio, those stonehenge looking things with the bug bears.
What bugs me about the average RPK'er is how they often don't keep their trash talking to within the game... It's when they start bringing in my parents, my real life appearance or nationality, my race, my religious or sexual orientation, and so on, that I'll get ****** off. It's just a game, keep it within the game.
The same can be said for non-red characters who GET killed by a PK... some whine, complain, call you someone, happy, excrement, not a winner... you get the idea.
On occasion, I actually have decent ingame conversations with people even after I kill them... More often than not, I use /block. :)
I'm talking about predatory PKers. To me these have typically been C-grade or even B-grade archers who sneak into the Execution Grounds, Cruma Marshlands or other places near the ever-notorious Floran lands, and kill your poor D-grade in 1-3 shots before you know what is happening. Without warning, without consent, typically in an ambush fashion.
I'm talking about predatory PKers. To me these have typically been C-grade or even B-grade archers who sneak into the Execution Grounds, Cruma Marshlands or other places near the ever-notorious Floran lands, and kill your poor D-grade in 1-3 shots before you know what is happening. Without warning, without consent, typically in an ambush fashion.
This is much more of a personal violation.
You're playing the wrong game.
He's playing the wrong game.
Or at least he is playing the wrong game since there are no alternate rules servers.
To the OP:
I can appreciate your position as many people enjoy a more controlled game session (log in, plan out what you are going to do and then log off, get dinner, etc)
However you really have no idea what this game used to be like. It was red players everywhere. And as I've mentioned in similiar posts, there were times that red players would camp out Talking Island and would eliminate any lower lvl player who even tried to leave the town.
These players would come to the boards and beg higher lvl players to come to TI just for 30 minutes so they could level a little.
This is supposed to be a brutal game. It has mellowed a bit and with good reason. Most people are involved in higher lvl clan wars and are more interested in those or making back the xp they lose. There aren't enough lower level players in the starting areas to really make it worth the effort for someone who likes this type of gameplay.
But know that it is built into this game. This is one reason a lot of people left at the start. Just not their type of game.
It is hundreds of times better now than it was. But it can still be a core gamplay element. We actually had a pk'er that had so many pk's he went white (that's not a joke - there was an issue with the system)
Outlaws were very common. They loved to grief and they caused a lot of people to rethink the game. They also caused a lot of people to put "their nose to the grindstone" and level up, become more powerful, gather friends and to deal the justice that they desired.
Unless NC decides that an alternate rules server that caters to a more structured pvp environment is viable, I'm afraid you will have to either accept it or find another game.
As the gm's used to tell us "deal with it in game"
edit: I just saw that this post was made in '06. Who knows if the op even plays anymore.
My post stands for anyone else who would have written the original post. :o
I remember once a group of reds set up a 'toll station' on the road from Giran to Oren back when almost noone took the GK because we couldn't afford it. They shook down travellers until we could pull together a big enough group to clear the road and keep it clear.
I also remember groups of reds fighting groups of whites on TI, full groups on both sides.
Note lots has changed since the original post. For one, they added the buffs in Gludin and Gludio that prevent gankers from abusing lowbies. This is honestly exactly all I'd hoped for and that's cool if this somehow helped create that. Those little buffs at the newbie helper that prevent some B-grade weenie from messing with your level 30 toon, etc. Bravo, NCSoft.
As to all you people who posted manly chest-beating words saying this or that regarding if I play the right game, I don't think you really read what I wrote. So - thank you to people with enough restraint and focus to actually read my whole posting rather than leap to conclusions and call crybaby. I'm happy some people playing the game have made it out of high school. :-)
So - back to the original:
(a) Yeah! Lowbies protected from unrelenting +10 level chaotic predators - done! :-)
(b) Would be nice to include more ability for people to find, engage, and prevent PK people from running off. My recent PK experiences (now that I'm A-grade) have been S-grade nuker sneaks up, wails on you, you call in help, they BSOE or discon soon as they have any challenge whatsoever.
So how bout these:
- If you are Chaotic, BSOE no longer works for you
- If you are Chaotic, your "in battle" cooldown is greatly extended so you cannot disconnect (without force-disconnect) so easily
- If you are Chaotic, you show up on the compass-radar so are more easily discovered, or people can see you coming
None of this, I'll note makes for a "carebear" game other than not preying on lowbies, which is just ******ed anyway. The rest actually adds some point to the PK encounters. Makes them fight for what they are doing. Makes people able to do more than just lie in wait for them. I like that PKers keep me on my toes. I like the danger. I've even taken some down. I've even gone red myself when a bot party took down some party members. But I still think some of these ideas remain valid.
So how bout these:
- If you are Chaotic, BSOE no longer works for you
- If you are Chaotic, your "in battle" cooldown is greatly extended so you cannot disconnect (without force-disconnect) so easily
- If you are Chaotic, you show up on the compass-radar so are more easily discovered, or people can see you coming
Good suggestions, but "compass-radar"? I've only seen this on Halo, never in this game. Did I miss something?
So how bout these:
- If you are Chaotic, BSOE no longer works for you
- If you are Chaotic, your "in battle" cooldown is greatly extended so you cannot disconnect (without force-disconnect) so easily
- If you are Chaotic, you show up on the compass-radar so are more easily discovered, or people can see you coming
...I like that PKers keep me on my toes. I like the danger. I've even taken some down. I've even gone red myself when a bot party took down some party members. But I still think some of these ideas remain valid.
PK players keep you on your toes BECAUSE you don't know they are coming... they are able to swoop in unannounced, kill at will, and then BSoE if they choose to. The "valid ideas" you propose would totally negate this.
Red chaotic players already have numerous disadvantages both in and out of battle situations that white players do not have. No additional handicaps are needed.
When an mmorpg has little restrictions on who fights who where and penalties are negligeable, human nature comes into play.
It simply goes to show how an important percentage of people act in unresricted situations, simply because they can. And when one is unrestricted, there's no such friggin thing as fair play, and anything goes, no such thing as morals or decency it's almost chaos afterall. Keeps the game interesting to a certain level, conflict always does that, unless it becomes frustrating because of the pkers, a moment when you'd better log out before popping a vein :) (if you're more senzitive :)).
Just imagine what would happen if no penalties for pking would apply.... Chaos, as a hell of alot of people enjoy harassing and making other players that don't stand any chance against them feel miserable because they're powerless. It very enjoyable for so many it goes to show for who laws are made.
As for some of the suggestion the op gave, i don't much care for them, the game is restrictive enough with pkers now. Maybe some changes could apply but i don't personally feel any need. I'm pretty much neutral anyway, as he only time I go red is on people who deserve it :P
Studying the behaviours and motivations within a vast mmorpg community would give a shrink the time of his life...
When an mmorpg has little restrictions on who fights who where and penalties are negligeable, human nature comes into play.
It simply goes to show how an important percentage of people act in unresricted situations, simply because they can.
Studying the behaviours and motivations within a vast mmorpg community would give a shrink the time of his life...
Humans are interesting animals..
/agreed
However - here is the difference. In real life you have to face people in the eye, and there are consequences for your actions. The anonymity of this interface lets people hide behind a mask and make moral choices they would not themselves. And the consequences for this are utterly nothing.
A C-grader griefing on Windmill Hill would be like a high school kid visiting an elementary school playground and handing out bloody noses. It's not just bad behavior, it's asymmetric abuse of power - it's rapacious. Now that there is the anti-PK buff there, at least the new players get some protection. More seasoned ones can learn to adapt to it.
My suggestions are to force people who choose to exploit this open part of the game (that we have all agreed to play) to actually face the consequences for their actions. BSOEs and the difficulty in finding griefers make it too easy to promote this sort of behavior. And again - to my original point - there is no objection to PvP. This is about people getting their jollies abusing people far below their power level. There is no purpose to it - it harms the lower level people and has no consequence on the higher level people. I see no reason for anyone to defend that. There should always be a consequence.
In a very related topic but one I know is verboten on the forums, there really should be a way for people to report and address scammers. It's the same kind of thing, and I think it's such a can of worms NCSoft is smart to just warn us and have that be their policy. However, there is no mechanism there for people to even follow up on such a thing. Aden lacks the infrastructure for such things. And I have no particular suggestions in that regard, unfortunately. I just think it's the same situation where people exhibit the worst behaviors given anonymity.
As to all you people who posted manly chest-beating words saying this or that regarding if I play the right game, I don't think you really read what I wrote. So - thank you to people with enough restraint and focus to actually read my whole posting rather than leap to conclusions and call crybaby. I'm happy some people playing the game have made it out of high school. :-)
"If I don't like your answer, it must be because you are a chest-beating high-school kid."
Sorry that you feel that way and were unable to understand that some people don't like all the sa***uards and shelters that reduce risk - and as such, value of reward - to the game.
Good to hear that the newbie buff is working well for you.
However - here is the difference. In real life you have to face people in the eye, and there are consequences for your actions. The anonymity of this interface lets people hide behind a mask and make moral choices they would not themselves. And the consequences for this are utterly nothing.
Maybe you've lost sight of the fact that this is a game?!?
Can't help but disagree with the turn of this thread in discussions of 'limiting chaotic characters'.
Predatory PK'ing (as you've named it) is part and parcel of L2--from the moment you leave the starter area gremlins!
I don't grief others and I've been killed a lot by folks I couldn't even touch. It's part of the game.
Someone told me a long time ago, "get mad or quit" and I've come to understand that is a key to learning to play L2. Without PvP that is open, L2 is "Dragon Warrior on NES".
Would I like to see ANY conditions on Chaotic players? Don't really care. I suppose I'd like them not to be able to use a BSOE but hey, they take their chances and should probably not be restricted in this way, either.
L2 isn't a societal experiment and it doesn't reflect society in general. It's a GAME platform with its own rules and culture.
If you've played for more than 2 hours you shouldn't expect "fair play" from others. It just isn't going to happen!
If you get griefed at a lvl 20 by a lvl 40+, when you finally reach lvl 40+ yourself, the griefers will be in B-grade.
When you go on your first seige at 62, the guy you catch won't be level 62-63, they'll be 78+ and kill you 2 shots while none of your skills land and your attacks hit for "1 hitpoint" (lmao).
The 2nd lesson I learned in L2 was that "there is no such thing as fair play" to be expected. Consequently I NEVER give a red a break. No matter what they say or do I kill them without hesitation, apology, or comment the moment I see them.
When there is no definition of "fair play"....essentially everything that doesn't violate the EULA is "Fair". Works for me.
However - here is the difference. In real life you have to face people in the eye, and there are consequences for your actions. The anonymity of this interface lets people hide behind a mask and make moral choices they would not themselves. And the consequences for this are utterly nothing.
What sort of consequences do you want?
They are already hunted down by "mobs", which is akin to what eventually happens to a school yard bully.
They are already hated and called some of the most disgusting things in the book..all because they killed a "pixel". [censored]!
The character is already outcasted from town by the guards.
Heaven forbid he kills the "wrong" character a few times, since that character might just know his "real" character and take it out on that one.
However - here is the difference. In real life you have to face people in the eye, and there are consequences for your actions. The anonymity of this interface lets people hide behind a mask and make moral choices they would not themselves. And the consequences for this are utterly nothing.
Maybe you've lost sight of the fact that this is a game?!?
As Tevi pointed out above, people can get away with things in-game that they cannon in real life, we don't have the societal norms constraining us here. Therefore, I believe that people's REAL persona shows through in-game. They use phrases such as 'it is just a game' to excuse their behavior rather than face the fact that they are bullies and cowards and cheaters and <fill in blank>.
This is not intended as any type of criticism of L2, I find it fascinating to watch. The real struggle in L2 is between good and evil. Not a fake good and evil imposed by game design, like orcs versus humans. Rather the game lets us be ourselves and we see players gathering around leaders who express their world view.
As an earlier poster said, humans are fascinating! TY NCSoft for letting this play out in the digital world.
They are already hunted down by "mobs", which is akin to what eventually happens to a school yard bully.
Eh, with how easy it is to log once you see those torches and pitchforks over the horizon, that's hardly an issue. Even if they get a couple of hits in to prevent you from logging normally, even if you don't forcelog, you can just pop a ww2 and kite them around until you're out of combat mode again and log safely.
However - here is the difference. In real life you have to face people in the eye, and there are consequences for your actions. The anonymity of this interface lets people hide behind a mask and make moral choices they would not themselves. And the consequences for this are utterly nothing.
Maybe you've lost sight of the fact that this is a game?!?
As Tevi pointed out above, people can get away with things in-game that they cannon in real life, we don't have the societal norms constraining us here. Therefore, I believe that people's REAL persona shows through in-game. They use phrases such as 'it is just a game' to excuse their behavior rather than face the fact that they are bullies and cowards and cheaters and <fill in blank>.
So... what you're saying is anyone who plays a red "chaotic" PK character in the imaginary world of Lineage II must be a "bully, coward, and cheat"?!?
Not necessarily, but it tells a bit about tendencies?
This to be nice :).
Extrapolate a bit :).
Edit: Most(all?) are not like that IR ofcourse, it's not as easy :).
yeah, just cause you play a chaotic char in-game (which IS a legitimate option of game play provided) doesn't mean there is something pathologically wrong with you.
Being 'red' doesn't somehow hint that you're flawed or reveal your 'true' character. That's nonsense.
I've played a dwarf and am nearly 6 feet tall, a female SH though I'm a guy (and not a closet cross dresser)--and btw, little missy SH has done the sin eater quest so many times I can't remember them all!, an orc though irl my muscles are pretty old and squishy.
Games are where we can PRETEND to be other things--and where we can just play. Playing is a lost art! For some reason after about 8-9 years of age our society just doesn't appreciate PLAY.
Games like L2 are for entertainment. If someone wants to log in a perma red and shout insults over those weaker who they've ganked, it doesn't mean the red player is anything like that irl. It just means they wanted to play that way for awhile.
Of course, reds being what they are--they take their chances too!
More on this last topic of "are we how we play?"...I'd say no.
Irl I'm somewhat of a loner away from work, I don't tend to worry over much about others in life, I work hard for my wife and family....in-game I hope others see me as sort of funny, thoughtful, supportive, and a loyal and valued clanmate. In some ways I'm a BETTER man in-game than I am in fact (which is sad). It's almost like the game gives me freedom or permission or a clean slate or something in order to try to be better than my nature.
I can't agree that we somehow are all 'really how we play'....that's not the case for me at least.
Yes, what we do in game are manifestations of various facets of what we want to do/be/feel outside our real lives mostly.
But I for one will never like or enjoy people that act like jacka**es in game (or whatever obnoxious/unpleasent to others) :p. As I can't help but think that someone that acts like that in the game and enjoys it alot, wouldn't do exactly the same thing in real life if there weren't the psichological barriers (not enough courage) or laws.
And I personally don't have anything against pkers of same level, as they have some courage to do so and it's actually thrilling when you have a chance, i don't enjoy it per say but at least it's not that sensation of helplessness you get when you're hit for a few thou dmg by a high level char that you do 1 dmg to.... PK on lower levels is what i can't digest.
Trust me when i say that this subject is far more delicate then some can imagine, deep psichological study material.
I know a guy who has a perma red(although I dont think he even plays anymore) but his main regular character was very well liked. No one knew he was also a perma red on the same server....was kinda funny.
Someone told me a long time ago, "get mad or quit" and I've come to understand that is a key to learning to play L2. Without PvP that is open, L2 is "Dragon Warrior on NES".
rofl,
but if you're saying dragon warrior sucks I outta smack you :P
I don't mind the open PvP. Last time a red ganked my now bounty hunter I came back with my SR and proceded to get owned about 4 times lol. I thought I could get that stupid necromancer but 2 hits and I was taking a dirt nap.
When I get my A jewels I will go back and hunt that guy XD.
Yes, what we do in game are manifestations of various facets of what we want to do/be/feel outside our real lives mostly.
....
Trust me when i say that this subject is far more delicate then some can imagine, deep psichological study material.
Enjoy the freedom :p.
Or maybe you read far too much into the game and take the game far too seriously.
You are forgetting certain MAJOR points here.
1) It is behavior intended within the rules and mechanics of the game. Kinda like how you throw a ball at people to try to hit them in dodgeball or you murder people relentlessly in an FPS.
Surprisingly, most people playing those games do not have deep rooted psychological problems or violent tendencies. It's the way the game is played.
2) To some, those characters are nothing more than 'ships' and 'points'. Not everyone has an emotional tie with their character and loot. Some people genuinely look at the game as a game and nothing deeper than that. In that regard, it isn't even crossing their mind that the other player may be emotionally attached to their character. It may not be crossing their mind that you didn't want to be interrupted and you now have had a frustrating experience due to their attack. They attacked with their ship and got points. It is as simple as that in some cases. Their attachment and perception of the game is no different than what they would have when playing Space Invaders or DOOM.
I understand that it's fun to try to take the psychological high road in order to explain how everyone else is less enlightened than you, but at least try to have some kind of actual knowledge of player behavior.
Or maybe you read far too much into the game and take the game far too seriously.
<detailed explanation>
Well said. :)
well, not really.
He is right in that there are people who just look at it as a game and are "moving their pieces" to complete their objectives. Like taking a piece in Chess or Checkers.
However, can you really say for sure that there aren't people out there who aren't living out some sort of deeper psychological desire or trait?
Seems to me that there are all sorts of people who play this game. Just because they are pk'ers doesn't mean they are nuts but it also doesn't mean that they are completely devoid of issues either.
It would probably be based on a case by case basis. And even if a behavioral psychologist did a study on this type of behavior, would it be comprehensive or even "right"?
Yes, what we do in game are manifestations of various facets of what we want to do/be/feel outside our real lives mostly.
....
Trust me when i say that this subject is far more delicate then some can imagine, deep psichological study material.
Enjoy the freedom :p.
Or maybe you read far too much into the game and take the game far too seriously.
You are forgetting certain MAJOR points here.
1) It is behavior intended within the rules and mechanics of the game. Kinda like how you throw a ball at people to try to hit them in dodgeball or you murder people relentlessly in an FPS.
Surprisingly, most people playing those games do not have deep rooted psychological problems or violent tendencies. It's the way the game is played.
2) To some, those characters are nothing more than 'ships' and 'points'. Not everyone has an emotional tie with their character and loot. Some people genuinely look at the game as a game and nothing deeper than that. In that regard, it isn't even crossing their mind that the other player may be emotionally attached to their character. It may not be crossing their mind that you didn't want to be interrupted and you now have had a frustrating experience due to their attack. They attacked with their ship and got points. It is as simple as that in some cases. Their attachment and perception of the game is no different than what they would have when playing Space Invaders or DOOM.
I understand that it's fun to try to take the psychological high road in order to explain how everyone else is less enlightened than you, but at least try to have some kind of actual knowledge of player behavior.
I'm not posing as enlightened in any way, I might give that impression but it's just me beeing myself.
I can't deny what you said as it is indeed a valid point.
However "no implications, no other meaning" etc is not a complete answer, it's only one singular aspect of how people manifest in games and/or why.
On another note, beeing evil is not complicated, it's actually the easiest most primeval way to have fun and just requires letting loose. Why does violence sell better then anything, yeah, better then xxx even :p.
As you've said, I'm reading too much into it, but it can be fun at times :D.
the 'its just a game' mentality of pkers should be embraced by some of the top allies on servers.
some are so lame that when they do get owned in pvp, they will report a person(s) over and over and over in hopes of getting the person's account banned.
those llamas can learn a thing or two from the bedeviled pkers.
He is right in that there are people who just look at it as a game and are "moving their pieces" to complete their objectives. Like taking a piece in Chess or Checkers.
However, can you really say for sure that there aren't people out there who aren't living out some sort of deeper psychological desire or trait?
Seems to me that there are all sorts of people who play this game. Just because they are pk'ers doesn't mean they are nuts but it also doesn't mean that they are completely devoid of issues either.
It would probably be based on a case by case basis. And even if a behavioral psychologist did a study on this type of behavior, would it be comprehensive or even "right"?
Actually, studies have been extensively done on this very subject.
All of which (I mean *ALL* of which..) have proven that there is absolutely no link between you playing a violent game and being violent.
You do NOT "act out" your inner demons. This has been proven by *at least* 10 studies by major university studies, in part due to the theory that violent video games promote violent behavior.
Are there exceptions? Sure... to every rule.
However, the majority that play Video Games, be they violent or not, tended in the majority of the studies to be extremely stress free individuals. I'm sure most can figure out exactly why that is.
He is right in that there are people who just look at it as a game and are "moving their pieces" to complete their objectives. Like taking a piece in Chess or Checkers.
However, can you really say for sure that there aren't people out there who aren't living out some sort of deeper psychological desire or trait?
Seems to me that there are all sorts of people who play this game. Just because they are pk'ers doesn't mean they are nuts but it also doesn't mean that they are completely devoid of issues either.
It would probably be based on a case by case basis. And even if a behavioral psychologist did a study on this type of behavior, would it be comprehensive or even "right"?
Actually, studies have been extensively done on this very subject.
All of which (I mean *ALL* of which..) have proven that there is absolutely no link between you playing a violent game and being violent.
You do NOT "act out" your inner demons. This has been proven by *at least* 10 studies by major university studies, in part due to the theory that violent video games promote violent behavior.
Are there exceptions? Sure... to every rule.
However, the majority that play Video Games, be they violent or not, tended in the majority of the studies to be extremely stress free individuals. I'm sure most can figure out exactly why that is.
Oh I completely agree. I've played quite a few violent video games and I'm not a violent person.. however..
The converse still can be true in that there can easily be "violent" people who play violent video games and who are "getting off" on what is going on in front of them.
So no, violent video games do not create violent people. But that does not exclude the fact that violent people play violent video games and might "ingest" the images in a way that a normal player wouldn't.
Regardless of the people behind the toons - honestly to the original point, I just don't think having PKers enabled with coward-tactics like BSOE or run-and-discon encourage even a good/fun *competitive* side to the game. It only brings misery. There is no upside. If you are a red and you like it - cool. I respect that - but you should have the <guts> to face people your skill level after you do. And some added assurance for people just starting that they won't get owned by someone twice their level hardly spoils playbalance.
Not trying to make a huge issue honest :) A 5 minute combat cooldown before being able to discon after a PK - so bad? BSOE working like a regular SOE to someone Red - so bad? The compass-radar showing direction of nearby reds just like it does for mobs - so bad? (Particularly if you /target them?) Put those in and bring it on. Maybe it'll turn PK people into PvP people. And that's a good thing!
I don't see many reds. I've seen one since I resubscribed, and it was a highish SR in NG gear (so hits for nothing, but runs fast) -- yawn.
The thing I'm almost 100% glad to see the end of is the endless trains people would bring to drop on your party in hopes you'd drop something. It's interesting, but not surprising, that when they removed any chance of profit from pk/griefing, it all but stopped.
It used to be you'd get a couple training attempts every hour in Branded and Worshippers.
Regardless of the people behind the toons - honestly to the original point, I just don't think having PKers enabled with coward-tactics like BSOE or run-and-discon encourage even a good/fun *competitive* side to the game. It only brings misery. There is no upside. If you are a red and you like it - cool. I respect that - but you should have the <guts> to face people your skill level after you do. And some added assurance for people just starting that they won't get owned by someone twice their level hardly spoils playbalance.
Not trying to make a huge issue honest :) A 5 minute combat cooldown before being able to discon after a PK - so bad? BSOE working like a regular SOE to someone Red - so bad? The compass-radar showing direction of nearby reds just like it does for mobs - so bad? (Particularly if you /target them?) Put those in and bring it on. Maybe it'll turn PK people into PvP people. And that's a good thing!
Tavi, seriously... I don't think you are able to actually grasp the concept of existing as a perma-red character in Lineage II.
If you envision a better, kinder game world by removing the ability for a red to utilize a BSoE because you think it is "cowardly", then it should be removed from the game completely. Why should a character being killed by a red... any character, any level... be able to instantly escape from death with a BSoE? Isn't that just as cowardly in your opinion?
A compass radar showing the location of reds only?!? Please... there are already a significant amount of battle handicaps a red has to deal with. Red mages can't sleep or hold white players they are fighting, red melee characters can't use any debuffs (hex, power break) against white characters they are fighting, etc. etc. Whites have a full arsenal of abilities to use against reds... you want to be able to see them across the map, too?
I face characters my level (and above) often. If I die, not only do I lose xp but I risk dropping. Whites take no such equipment risk. Reds have plenty of "guts" to fight if they so choose, but they certainly are not obligated to stick around if things aren't going as planned... in battle, the term is usually refered to as "retreat". ;)
There is an amazing upside to being red... it's fun as heck. And since I'm paying for my game account, that's really all that matters. :)
If all you can steal with a PK is exp, where's the fun?
I think sieges and the like are great fun, that's pvp with a purpose. And in the past, tryin to get drops, particularly from unattended bots, was fun with a purpose. Even clan wars, I can see as fun with a purpose. But random red killing lowbies is ... fun? how?
Aside: the bit about not being able to hex or sleep as a red -- that's really irrelevant as most reds are archers, maybe some nukers. Nobody goes career red on those other classes.
If you envision a better, kinder game world by removing the ability for a red to utilize a BSoE because you think it is "cowardly", then it should be removed from the game completely. Why should a character being killed by a red... any character, any level... be able to instantly escape from death with a BSoE? Isn't that just as cowardly in your opinion?
It's very simple. Because BSOE can help people who didn't invite trouble to get the heck out when trouble finds them. The fact that a red can impose this on someone else and still enjoy such an escape is cowardly. On the other hand, I'm not opposed to full stop removal of BSoE personally. Let people party with an EE to get that kind of mad escape skill! I love giving support casters more reason for love. The day VR scrolls (or god help us an SA) appear will be sad indeed.
As for the drops - I don't really think that's a big deal unless the perma-red is simpleminded. The reds on my server wear crap gear and honestly are crap PvP. This is why they gank people much lower - cuz in real PvP they haven't got a clue. Everyone knows reds drop, most of all reds. Don't put on anything you can't lose if you're focus is on troubling others as such.
If all you can steal with a PK is exp, where's the fun?
I think sieges and the like are great fun, that's pvp with a purpose. And in the past, tryin to get drops, particularly from unattended bots, was fun with a purpose. Even clan wars, I can see as fun with a purpose. But random red killing lowbies is ... fun? how?
Aside: the bit about not being able to hex or sleep as a red -- that's really irrelevant as most reds are archers, maybe some nukers. Nobody goes career red on those other classes.
If I have to explain it to you, you probably still won't understand... maybe you should try it?!?
Imagie the heightened sense of excitement and "life or death" gameplay you may feel during a seige or other PvP experiences...
Now attempt to imagine that feeling every single moment you are logged onto your character... knowing that at any moment you might encounter another player (or players!) and enter battle... with anyone... and any level. No seige schedule to follow... No arena "playground" to safely schedule fights at with all the other children... PvP anytime, and at high risk to you as a red if you wear top gear.
Not having your full list of character abilities available to you for battle is irrelevant?!? Try fighting a Gladi or BD or any melee character who is beating you senseless and not be able to use debuffs such as Hex or Power Break... it is a distinct disadvantage.
Well I get the part of pvp being fun, I already did. My lil healer/buffer was defending my clan's castle last siege, and I really think that's what this game is about.
I've gone red on a griefer who was disrupting a raid, and then fought thru the raid-boss as a red, back when you still dropped stuff.
But career reds are throw-away characters, not leveling up, not gearing up, just messin around. I think if there were nothing riding on it, it'd feel like "pvp" in WoW or on a FPS where you just respawn and carry on. Are you afraid you'll drop that "hunting bow" or your NG jewels? And for that I think I'd be bored very soon.
My 2nd character is a BD, so I very much know the utility of Hex and Powerbreak. But, to this day, my BD is the only one I've ever seen go red, and it was for a very short while. Melee aren't career reds.
What skills to typical reds have to forego?
SR: doubleshot burstshot stunshot ... those all work right?
PR: you can't use power break, but you weren't gonna come that close to cast it anyway
I might be wrong, but isn’t this just a game? When you get killed what is the big deal? You are going to be playing anyway? Aren’t you killing MOBs below your level? It doesn’t hurt when the “bad” guy kills you, does it? If you get upset over this you really should pick some other game… Pong (http://www.pong-story.com/intro.htm) (Ref: Atari 1972) would be good for you.
You could just grab the protection buff from the newbie guide.
...career reds are throw-away characters, not leveling up, not gearing up, just messin around...
Are you afraid you'll drop that "hunting bow" or your NG jewels? And for that I think I'd be bored very soon.
So... my career red of over 2 1/2 years is a "throw away" character? Really?!?
Afraid I'll drop my "hunting bow" or NG jewels?!?!? ROFL!!! Hardly...
I am concerned about dropping my A grade stuff, though. :eek:
And as far as leveling goes, I'm significantly higher level now than when I first went red.
Well I never heard of you, Scabies, except this thread. Perhaps your red is your main and you're able to level up productively and stay red. I s'pose there's no reason it couldn't be done, I've just never seen a red that did.
I might be wrong, but isn’t this just a game? When you get killed what is the big deal? You are going to be playing anyway? Aren’t you killing MOBs below your level? It doesn’t hurt when the “bad” guy kills you, does it? If you get upset over this you really should pick some other game… Pong (http://www.pong-story.com/intro.htm) (Ref: Atari 1972) would be good for you.
You could just grab the protection buff from the newbie guide.
I think you are missing the point as to why some people get upset if they are pk'ed.
It's all about how they want to experience their play session.
They log in, they finally find their party, and essentially they make the decision of what they are going to do (level, hunt for mats, etc).
the PK'er comes along and pk's them and suddenly their play session is altered. Ok, no big deal. A little xp lost. But it essentially stops what they are doing and changes the perceived play session. Sort of like someone coming in and throwing up the monopoly board. No big deal and the current game is lost but no real harm. Still, the people who are into the current game become upset.
Except that in L2, the pk'er really is a part of the game. Sort of like blowing up your weapon while you are enchanting it.
Some people really like that unknown component of the pk'er, and that danger.
the problem really stems from players who just can't get on board with that part of the game. They want more controlled play sessions where they get to pick how the session goes.
So, they would be fine going to a siege (and even losing xp when one lost xp at sieges) because that is their choice.
But again, since the pk'er is a real and valid part of the game, you can't really say the pk'er is "bad". It's really like the "go to jail" card.
However, it seems that NC has had a change of heart because they now have added that no pk blessing and also extended it up to 39. That and adding BSOE's (for those who can afford them) it becomes apparent that someone doesn't have to become pk'ed (or can lessen their chances) if they don't want to.
Quite frankly, NC is walking a bit of a dangerous line. They are starting to change fundamentals of the game that many people came here for.
If they keep doing this they have risk of ruining the game for people who came here for a more hardcore pvp experience.
The only way they really can save themselves is to make different servers. Bring back the more hardcore pvp rules, loss of xp at sieges, no blessing, no bsoe (or at least alter its use), etc and then create a server for people who want a more controlled player experience.
edit: or just stop making such profound changes to the game rules.
I think you are missing the point as to why some people get upset if they are pk'ed.
It's all about how they want to experience their play session.
They log in, they finally find their party, and essentially they make the decision of what they are going to do (level, hunt for mats, etc).
the PK'er comes along and pk's them and suddenly their play session is altered.
If reds were not an intended and expected dynamic of the game, then I could possibly see where you're coming from there. However, expecting to not get attacked is an unrealistic expectation. Their play session was actually never altered because a lack of awaredness or preparedness ontheir part does not constitute a change in gameplay on anyone elses.
"Sort of like someone coming in and throwing up the monopoly board."
Nothing like that. Someone throwing the gameboard is not part of gameplay in Monopoly. It's more like going to an atomic testing area to have a picnic and getting upset that a bomb ruined your day.
In your scenario, Sov, their play session was 'altered' because they had unrealistic expectations to begin with.
You acknowledge in your post that the problem is unrealistic expectations on the part of the player, but then seem to still feel that the the player is right in their view. Or maybe I'm reading it wrong and it's just empathy for the 'victim' players. I'll reread that in a cup of coffee or two. :)
"It's all about how they want to experience their play session."
That is why I say those people are in the wrong game. If what they want to experience directly contradicts the design of the game, then they might be better off playing something else.
If you are lvl 39 or below just go and get the blessing of protection from the newbie guide. It will prevent damage (0 dmg) from characters that are 10 lvl higher than you and red (you will do 0 dmg to them if you try to hit back).
What I would like to see changed for the PKers are that they cannot use scroll of escape clan hall, use to clan hall when they die and that they can't be summoned.
What I would like to see changed for the PKers are that they cannot use scroll of escape clan hall, use to clan hall when they die and that they can't be summoned.
One thing that UO added that really helped was to make it so that an aggressor against another player cannot recall, gate, or instalog for a set amount of time. That goes for both red and white players. This way you aren't completely taking away abilities from the red because people cried, and at the same time offering a "What's good for the goose is good for the gander" solution.
The official studies made on the relation between acting violent in games and doing so in real life only tried to reveal the relation of people who play violent games and/or act out violently in games and if that playing those games would give a push in the wrong direction. Those are remote cases of NUT people.
However, those same studies also revealed that people have inclination towards releasing build up stress and anger in violent games where they can be what they would never be in real life. Those people are (most/all of them) normal, functional members of society that just release stress and have fun this way (releasing stress is fun :p).
IMO violent games truly incite violence only in those who are deranged to begin with. Luckly those are few and very far inbetween.
An impossible study to make would be to have the people who act out violently and obnoxiously in games, put in the same situations in real life, meaning in a semi-chaotic/chaotic state (like a war zone/ anarchy zone/ whatever)... That is impossible, so there's no real way of prooving anything related to this, just assume. And i could guess what that would conclude to :eek:
I think you are missing the point as to why some people get upset if they are pk'ed.
It's all about how they want to experience their play session.
They log in, they finally find their party, and essentially they make the decision of what they are going to do (level, hunt for mats, etc).
the PK'er comes along and pk's them and suddenly their play session is altered.
If reds were not an intended and expected dynamic of the game, then I could possibly see where you're coming from there. However, expecting to not get attacked is an unrealistic expectation. Their play session was actually never altered because a lack of awaredness or preparedness ontheir part does not constitute a change in gameplay on anyone elses.
"Sort of like someone coming in and throwing up the monopoly board."
Nothing like that. Someone throwing the gameboard is not part of gameplay in Monopoly. It's more like going to an atomic testing area to have a picnic and getting upset that a bomb ruined your day.
In your scenario, Sov, their play session was 'altered' because they had unrealistic expectations to begin with.
You acknowledge in your post that the problem is unrealistic expectations on the part of the player, but then seem to still feel that the the player is right in their view. Or maybe I'm reading it wrong and it's just empathy for the 'victim' players. I'll reread that in a cup of coffee or two. :)
"It's all about how they want to experience their play session."
That is why I say those people are in the wrong game. If what they want to experience directly contradicts the design of the game, then they might be better off playing something else.
Zhelavar, reread my post. I completely agree with you and we are saying the same thing.
What I posit is that the player who gets extremely riled up over the fact that he/she is pk'ed is feeling as if his/her "board" has been turned over. That they have a mindset of how they want to play and the pk'er doesn't figure into that. At least in their minds.
However, it is exactly because the Pk'er is a valid and integral part of the game that they need to either learn to accept it, deal with it, or find another game... or...
They can try to get the rules changed.
As we have seen the rules have changed. If NC keeps changing themthey could seriously dilute their game. They need to either take the stance that "hey, we are making a hardcore pvp game" or they need to make alternate rules servers that cater to players who want a more controlled pvp environment.
Otherwise they are going to get an anemic mix of both and that's just not going to do it.
See, I knew I shouldn't have posted before having my coffee. :)
Oh man, tell me about it. I haven't gotten a good night's sleep since last thursday as I stayed up too late last Friday and Saturday and haven't been able to get back on track.
I don't really know what to say to this thread. I am a firm believer in the no penalty PK (meaning no reds) as it adds a element of surprise to the game that you just cant find.. It forces grouping or getting you to be more creative in how you go about your playing. But they'd really have to balance a few things out for something like that anyway, as it wouldnt quite work with todays version of the game.
But then again I like the shadowbane style of play and for pvp there's yet to be a game quite like that as they all are carebear in comparison. I recall coming to l2 in beta and thinking wow ... people think this is hardcore?
The penalty for PK is the best thing that can happen to an open PvP game.
In UO, there's no more serious consequence for being a murderer, and the PvP facet became a Red vs Blue deathmatch. There's no interest for PvMers to take "risks" to get more reward, because there's no rule to PvP so they can only loose.
I don't believe in a system without consequence for PK. Just look at the PTS. Going red there isn't really important, it's not your main character and in a month it will be gone. Therefore you see a suddenly spreading number of players acting like rats. Every cheap PvP move becomes the new craze (blackscreen at nobless port, etc). And personally I wouldn't play L2 if it was like that. Always the same who would enjoy it, always the same who would spend a lot of time to prepare a gaming session.
In open beta here there really seemed to be more reds than whites toward the end, just like on the PTS as chaos week approached.
I can't tell you how many people I've run into in other games who tried lin2 back in those days, or shortly post launch (remember, you couldn't even log on, the servers were so full) and left with a terrible impression of lineage and NCSoft's games. PKers and a gruesome grind even to 20, with most of it spent on your [censored] waiting for mp to regen...
Personally, I think reds are a pretty trivial aspect of lin2, but I have to think we'd have substantially more live players if they'd launched with something closer to today's "carebear" rules.
yeah he's got a few of my alts, but never my main...I even get the "how close was I this time" pm lol. (keep in mind my main is 75 SE and I have her follow around my noob toons to buff and or heal when neccessary)
yeah he's got a few of my alts, but never my main...I even get the "how close was I this time" pm lol. (keep in mind my main is 75 SE and I have her follow around my noob toons to buff and or heal when neccessary)
LOL, maybe you'll stun shot me twice (not sure of the reuse time on that). So since you're here, the big question everyone wants to know is, are you A grade? Your stun lands everytime without fail on me....
And yeah Scabies, I always thought you had to be at least A grade...other people however were trying to tell me you were lower, which doesn't seem possible if you can land stun every time on me :P
LOL, maybe you'll stun shot me twice (not sure of the reuse time on that). So since you're here, the big question everyone wants to know is, are you A grade? Your stun lands everytime without fail on me....
I think he mentioned (in this thread non the less)that he was A grade ;).
read 1st page skipped to here dont know if anyone brought this up at all
if your from hindemith you might know this name, i was a "predatory pker" permared imo theres no sense in being mad over being pked for no reason, its simply part of the game, as of w/e chronicle death penalty came out theres a huge penalty on pkers already, i was pked probably a dozen times a day as i was a lowbie made no difference to me i played to enjoy an so did the pker, why ban them?
if you cant take the % loss on a toon thats between 20-40 you shouldnt even play this game tbh because you ARE going to die eventually (this is not a flame just bluntness)
pretty much just dont let it get to you an youll have the same amount of fun as anyone else. if you have ever gone red (which is extremely likely) youll know that whites have incredible advantages over reds as it is as pointed out by scabies earlier.
btw before you begin to call me a little girl for pking lowbies, i went perma at 62 an pked mainly cgrade + (id pk lowbies wait for mains which were bgrade + and pk them, worked pretty well.)
just enjoy the game, take the losses it gives you, and simply view someone who pks your alt as free gear.
edit: scabies you should have been on hidemith in c3 coulda joined my pk clan :P really good pk squad imo sr,sr,sr,sws
bubbabignuts(me), sackic,blade824, and of course asano.
It is my personal opinion that the amount of penalties a perma-red must face are unfair, to say the least.
Unable to use a DP scroll, unable to get items from regular players on death, gaurenteed drop of multiple items while *they* are red.
Some of you might say "Well if they're red then they deserve it". But what fun is a game without somebody to chase around?
Think about it, somebody who goes perma-red is obviously a player who lives for a thrill, but you get a thrill in hunting them down as well. No need to nerf reds any further then they already have been...
apart from the inability to use death penalty scrolls i find the penalties for being permared pretty fair, adds a need to stay alive to it all, it is pretty fun being universally hunted (apart from 1 or 2 alliances and a few friends from others)i just wish augments came out sooner, i would of augmented my carnage an used that lol. you can't tell me a agrade sr permared with bone armor and a carnage bow isnt pretty scary ^_^
The last 3 Redtards (B/A graders who grief-kill D/C graders - yes I'd like to coin the term) I went after with my A-grade SR when they killed a lowbie clannie all forcelogged or BSOEd.
The fact of the matter is I'd like to see one man up for once. Or have NC remove these chicken-censored tactics. If you're gonna grief people who don't remotely have a chance against you, their allies who do have a chance should get a shot at you (and your gear!)
Heh. I don't want reds (or perma-reds) banned. The penalties against reds are there for a reason. The point was to get players to pick fights as a challenge. These permareds aren't looking for a challenge. They simply seek for reasons only they can say (though I have my theory on the matter) to ruin the gaming experience for players who have to chance. They immediately wuss out as soon as a challenge shows up.
Now, it's an open pvp game, so I certainly want to allow players the option of goin red if they choose. I've been red enough times myself. Sometimes it's worth dealing with the penalties.
The problem with the game isn't that it allows for perma reds or that the penalties on reds are too steep. The problem is allowing bsoeing and brezzes to be used by reds.
This isn't boyscout bias either. On my server there are a group of people who hid behind a zerg to grief my people that have recently gone to other clans. I have every intention on repaying them and expect to be going red quite a bit in the near future, and still support the notion that wuss-out tactics for reds should be removed.
I agree with the idea that, yes, there are many cowardly people in any MMO with open PvP. It is, to me, the schoolyard bully mentality; only pick on those weaker than you, instead of "someone your own size". As in life, many of these players couldn't stand up to someone even close to their level, much less an equal. Doesn't make them any less annoying, of course. And it's the apparent motive behind it that annoys me, moreso than the action itself.
Do I think NC should implement something to change this? Nope. Don't change a thing. I even think the blessing of protection should run out sooner than 39. Maybe 19 or 20, once you've gotten your first class change. Though, maybe NC set it at 39 with the knowledge that many clans won't accept a new member until they're 40; up 'til then they don't have the back-up or protection of clan/ally mates. And of course, you can opt not to use it.
I do find something ironic in responses like "go play WoW if you don't like it". I've been PK'd and ganked _far_ more times in WoW than I've ever been in L2. I could count on two hands the number of times I've been outright ganked in L2 since I first started playing. I've been dropped more times than that in a single day at times in WoW.
There are reasons I think ganking isn't as prevalent in L2 as it is in WoW and, to me, has a better PvP system overall.
To name a couple...
- Unlike WoW, where a horde character can run back to the safety of their own territory, with few exceptions, there is no safe haven in L2.
- There is no pre-determined enemy in L2; no factions defining who you can or can't attack. Anyone can be your enemy, or your ally and it can change from one day to the next, depending on how the political winds blow.
- There is far more accountability in L2 between players... Having a KoS on your head means a heck of a lot more in L2 than it does in WoW. If you're not in a contested area or "flagged" in WoW, you're safe. Again, with few exceptions, you're not safe anywhere in L2.
There's more, but that's a few... Regardless, I've always found ganking and corpse-camping to be far more prevalent in WoW than I ever have in L2.