... when anyone gets 1 or 2 shotted by archers anyway.
I have a level 78 Eva Saint and I dont remember the last time I have been usefull in a pvp group against archers. With their Draconic bow focus and epic jewels they crit almost every single time so they 1 or 2 shot any character (4-6k damage per shot). With noble buff i can be used for rezzing on the battle field (before I get 2 shotted myself) and also I can give 1 person a PoWater before the party is completely wiped by the archers.
Everything is down to archers and a few supportclasses and the rest of the characters are utterly and completely useless.
Back in time nukers were the top of the food chain and now it has switched. At least back then you could still take a good 4-5 shots from a nuker before dying (with no heals). That leaves enough time for a healer to actually be usefull.
Something is wrong in this game and I really hope that the interlude will fix this once and for all. I remember back in the good old days when pvp was fun and the and a good battle would last more than 10-15 seconds.
Old problem, used to be worse in a way. When CP was considered a silly idea, and daggers were just as good as archers at killing people.
If you were an evasion class, you had it made. Every other class was a joke.
Times have changed, tanks aren't so bad anymore. Neither are nukers, support buffers, and the hybrid melee classes can be pretty brutal given their moments.
Whos left out of this picture?
Healers. They've been tweaked many times over the last couple of chronicles. But under a firing squad of archers they still have no real defense. Cept to spam CP/Heal pots and hope you can get a mass res off before you die.
Just no fun being a healbish since day one : (
You're needed, but at the same time you're also the most insignificant in a way.
Im amazed that you have a lvl 78 eva's saint and think healers are useless.
Shield block buffs are great against archers and they will crit you for half that dmg instead when you block (100% block rate on crits from the front with those buffs).
Id say healers is the singel most important class in pvp.
Edit. A tip, use terrain to your advantage, they have to see you but you dont have to see them..
Yeah I hear ya. If I already have someone targeted, and spam the living daylights out of battle heal the second their HP starts to drop, , sometimes they survive. Most of the time I just ask "was that a crit?" and shake my head and sigh and say well there was no out-healing that.
And you still need line of sight for non-slow direct heals.
You're needed, but at the same time you're also the most insignificant in a way.
For what? Buffs? Recharges? Rezzes? Because if my entire party is getting 1 and 2 shotted, I won't really be useful as a healer, will I? Especially since you have heal pots, mp pots, hp pots, cp pots, etc. Exactly what am I needed for?
i don't go into a big pvp now without a healer... i get 2-3 shotted also, but my healers keep me alive, you're just not with the right pvp group if they can't kill the archers.
get a good tank in your party and get him to hate the 923 out of the archers, then have your team drop them. or you mana brun them dry and mass block WW...they are screwed
Yes maybe we can kill them, but was it any fun for me? Did I get to heal anyone? No... cuz al drop dead after 1-2 shots. My whole point is that there is no fun in being a healer when all you do is buff, rez and recharge...
Yes maybe we can kill them, but was it any fun for me? Did I get to heal anyone? No... cuz al drop dead after 1-2 shots. My whole point is that there is no fun in being a healer when all you do is buff, rez and recharge...
Stop pvp'ing in c-grade is a good start. Otherwise I really doubt you drop in 1-2 hits.
Fully buffed a healer can get 1800 p.def in dc robe. And 1300 p.def without the hero ally buff (valor). And then add shield to that and you will see that you really can take some hits..
As I've been saying for ages... buffs are overpowered, heals are underpowered.
Cut PvP damage in half, make armour easier to enchant, nerf stacking on critical damage (and rate) buffs, make PvE easier to balance etc.
DW/DoF nerf is a good first step. Will see if NCSoft gets a clue and takes out more pace instead of continuously boosting classes up and up and up, because heaven forbid that balance should smooth out the peaks and the valleys instead of just pouring a massive amount of sand on a problem and declaring it fixed.
First of all I have both DC and MAJ robe so its not C grade. An archer with buffs/dances/cov hits me for 3.5-5k damage. And again its not my point anyway. The thing is that all the people I supposedly have to heal die in 1-2 hits and that goes for Sagittariuses too in full draconian. When eveyone dies so fast no matter which side you are on there is no fun for the healers since they are useless...
We dont all have heroes avalable all the time (or ever :p) ... :confused:
With shield and greater shield i'm a 3-4 shot usually on my SE and I'm one of the most useless pvp classes. But I still come and battle heal till I'm dead (or almost dead and I've managed to bsoe before I'm dead :p).
As I've been saying for ages... buffs are overpowered, heals are underpowered.
Cut PvP damage in half, make armour easier to enchant, nerf stacking on critical damage (and rate) buffs, make PvE easier to balance etc.
DW/DoF nerf is a good first step. Will see if NCSoft gets a clue and takes out more pace instead of continuously boosting classes up and up and up, because heaven forbid that balance should smooth out the peaks and the valleys instead of just pouring a massive amount of sand on a problem and declaring it fixed.
Isnt PVP damage already in half. I thought they did this in C2?
Also, isnt crit damage getting nerfed in the next update?
First of all I have both DC and MAJ robe so its not C grade. An archer with buffs/dances/cov hits me for 3.5-5k damage. And again its not my point anyway. The thing is that all the people I supposedly have to heal die in 1-2 hits and that goes for Sagittariuses too in full draconian. When eveyone dies so fast no matter which side you are on there is no fun for the healers since they are useless...
who the heck are you fighting? When I siege with people it is not very often that someone is getting 2 shotted unless they are 10or more levels lower than somone. I am very curious about the match up you are talking about.
At least I am glad to see that someone agrees with me. I am a little bit tired having spent years to get where I am now and then find out that as of this day I am officially useless in pvp.
Everyone wants to be a glorious damage dealer who kills the enemy. Who wants to be a healer - well I did when they were needed as I saw the importance back then. Now I don't know what to say any more than...
First of all I have both DC and MAJ robe so its not C grade. An archer with buffs/dances/cov hits me for 3.5-5k damage. And again its not my point anyway. The thing is that all the people I supposedly have to heal die in 1-2 hits and that goes for Sagittariuses too in full draconian. When eveyone dies so fast no matter which side you are on there is no fun for the healers since they are useless...
who the heck are you fighting? When I siege with people it is not very often that someone is getting 2 shotted unless they are 10or more levels lower than somone. I am very curious about the match up you are talking about.
I can tell you what he is talking about. He is talking about a lvl 78 Sagittarius with full Draconic equipment and a few epic jewels. Also he will have dances/songs/cov and maybe even a small cat to purr some nice stuff in his ear.
Now you take that guy and you put him up against a guy with the exact same buffs/gear. Who will win? Whoever gets off the first shot cuz 2 shots later the opponent is dead (maybe 3 shots if the stars and the moon is in a bad position and 1 shot shouldn't be a crit).
It's high level pvp, its normal and im getting used to it, but that doesn't mean that it's making the pvp fun?
First of all I have both DC and MAJ robe so its not C grade. An archer with buffs/dances/cov hits me for 3.5-5k damage. And again its not my point anyway. The thing is that all the people I supposedly have to heal die in 1-2 hits and that goes for Sagittariuses too in full draconian. When eveyone dies so fast no matter which side you are on there is no fun for the healers since they are useless...
who the heck are you fighting? When I siege with people it is not very often that someone is getting 2 shotted unless they are 10or more levels lower than somone. I am very curious about the match up you are talking about.
I think he has prophet buffs with zerk and no sws or cov/pof for extra p.def in his groups..
You cant compare dmg from a fully buffed archer to a pretty much unbuffed robe user...
Oh totally. Here's a good example too, these aren't crits at all either. I have 4506 hp and 2336 CP, that was with body of avatar on, shield 3, magic barrier, some dances I can't tell.
You feel curse gloom
I get hit for...
1224 dmg
1224 dmg
1224 dmg ( down to 3170 hp already)
1165 HEALED by another healer (not even enough to cover 1 regular hit)
1108 dmg
1224 dmg
687 CP healed (barely half of what 1 normal attack is doing)
627 dmg
1633 dmg
DEAD. The text scrolls by pretty fast so I may have missed a hit
Anyway if you watch just my CP and HP, my CP is gone in what looks like 2 hits, and I'm dead in another 3. not half bad, but it's all over in like 5 seconds
And if I were buffed to the teeth I would have done better, but 1 hour into a siege there's no way you'd be running around with full PP buffs, plus song of vit, hero this and OL that. You get what you can get and go.
Oh totally. Here's a good example too, these aren't crits at all either. I have 4506 hp and 2336 CP, that was with body of avatar on, shield 3, magic barrier, some dances I can't tell.
You feel curse gloom
I get hit for...
1224 dmg
1224 dmg
1224 dmg ( down to 3170 hp already)
1165 HEALED by another healer (not even enough to cover 1 regular hit)
1108 dmg
1224 dmg
687 CP healed (barely half of what 1 normal attack is doing)
627 dmg
1633 dmg
DEAD. The text scrolls by pretty fast so I may have missed a hit
Anyway if you watch just my CP and HP, my CP is gone in what looks like 2 hits, and I'm dead in another 3. not half bad, but it's all over in like 5 seconds
And if I were buffed to the teeth I would have done better, but 1 hour into a siege there's no way you'd be running around with full PP buffs, plus song of vit, hero this and OL that. You get what you can get and go.
Actually what you describe there is ok i think, cuz if you heal your self you can actually save yourself.
This what im talking about:
4564 damage
CP pot 200 HP
4564 damage
DEAD
Now this is the problem that we face with those archer crits.
Oh totally. Here's a good example too, these aren't crits at all either. I have 4506 hp and 2336 CP, that was with body of avatar on, shield 3, magic barrier, some dances I can't tell.
You feel curse gloom
I get hit for...
1224 dmg
1224 dmg
1224 dmg ( down to 3170 hp already)
1165 HEALED by another healer (not even enough to cover 1 regular hit)
1108 dmg
1224 dmg
687 CP healed (barely half of what 1 normal attack is doing)
627 dmg
1633 dmg
DEAD. The text scrolls by pretty fast so I may have missed a hit
Anyway if you watch just my CP and HP, my CP is gone in what looks like 2 hits, and I'm dead in another 3. not half bad, but it's all over in like 5 seconds
And if I were buffed to the teeth I would have done better, but 1 hour into a siege there's no way you'd be running around with full PP buffs, plus song of vit, hero this and OL that. You get what you can get and go.
Every siege I have been we are fully buffed and such.. And its 10 times better to gather up for 5-10 min and then go.. Then running around half-***** buffed and trying to be usefull.
A necro hit you from what I can see, if you had proper buffs he would do 200 dmg.. And I guess you got somewhat bad m.def?
Oh totally. Here's a good example too, these aren't crits at all either. I have 4506 hp and 2336 CP, that was with body of avatar on, shield 3, magic barrier, some dances I can't tell.
If you are getting crit for 4k + there is something wrong...my lvl 59 PW in Zubei only gets crit on for 3600-3700 by HE's in full draconic with +5 or so bows.. And thats when I have no buffs(not even self buffs) and they have full BD and PP buffs.
You feel curse gloom
I get hit for...
1224 dmg
1224 dmg
1224 dmg ( down to 3170 hp already)
1165 HEALED by another healer (not even enough to cover 1 regular hit)
1108 dmg
1224 dmg
687 CP healed (barely half of what 1 normal attack is doing)
627 dmg
1633 dmg
DEAD. The text scrolls by pretty fast so I may have missed a hit
Anyway if you watch just my CP and HP, my CP is gone in what looks like 2 hits, and I'm dead in another 3. not half bad, but it's all over in like 5 seconds
And if I were buffed to the teeth I would have done better, but 1 hour into a siege there's no way you'd be running around with full PP buffs, plus song of vit, hero this and OL that. You get what you can get and go.
Actually what you describe there is ok i think, cuz if you heal your self you can actually save yourself.
This what im talking about:
4564 damage
CP pot 200 HP
4564 damage
DEAD
Now this is the problem that we face with those archer crits.
I dunno i was gloomed twice as well, that wasn't half bad IMO.
And if you are on the field you can't always say hey bad guys, hang a sec I need to fully buff.
Then dont enter the field? Pretty simple.. Only time I can see why you would go in almost unbuffed is when you are about to lose a castle or if you for some reason died didnt get a new noble buff.
Releasing to flags is so old now and pointless, either you get rezzed at the fight or you release and gather up in town after the fight..
With the exception that you are fighting next to your flags..
... when anyone gets 1 or 2 shotted by archers anyway.
I have a level 78 Eva Saint and I dont remember the last time I have been usefull in a pvp group against archers. With their Draconic bow focus and epic jewels they crit almost every single time so they 1 or 2 shot any character (4-6k damage per shot). With noble buff i can be used for rezzing on the battle field (before I get 2 shotted myself) and also I can give 1 person a PoWater before the party is completely wiped by the archers.
Everything is down to archers and a few supportclasses and the rest of the characters are utterly and completely useless.
Back in time nukers were the top of the food chain and now it has switched. At least back then you could still take a good 4-5 shots from a nuker before dying (with no heals). That leaves enough time for a healer to actually be usefull.
Something is wrong in this game and I really hope that the interlude will fix this once and for all. I remember back in the good old days when pvp was fun and the and a good battle would last more than 10-15 seconds.
I really don't understand why you and your party die so fast.
I been up against archer parties and in archer and mixed parties in pvp a lot and i did get 2 shotted sure, but that was by a nuker, but also VS archer/cov parties i managed to stay alive a very long time, rezzed 2 people and healed them and others good enough to turn the tides in our advantage. Anyways the Majority of fights i survived and have not been 2 shotted as much as the fights i have survived. There are always unavoidable moments in fights, and then you get dropped, but if you just stand there just watching your CP going down, your not giving your party any chance/time to drop your opponents.
What i'm missing in the damage list someone put up is the CP pot spamming. The moment your CP goes down you spam CP pots right?
Ofcourse as an elven elder i really think it's the EE buffs that keeps the Damage under control and now with HP/CP elixers i am even harder to drop. I Spam CP pots and use the elixers at key points when i'm lowering HP/CP very fast. I also have a macro, that targets me and puts a major Heal and a Battle Heal on me after i press it 1 time only. Then there are QHP's very expensive unless your clan has a castle and makes them really cheap. Anyways, i totally disagree when someone claims his healer class is useless in pvp, People are really surprised when they see how much i can take and a healer that stays alive does make a difference for the rest of his party.
I do expect to get dropped though, but i have to postpone that crucial moment as long as i can sometimes surviving the whole battle and using 2/3 out of my MP bar which means my party stays alive longer as well. No way healers are useless in pvp...
... when anyone gets 1 or 2 shotted by archers anyway.
I have a level 78 Eva Saint and I dont remember the last time I have been usefull in a pvp group against archers. With their Draconic bow focus and epic jewels they crit almost every single time so they 1 or 2 shot any character (4-6k damage per shot). With noble buff i can be used for rezzing on the battle field (before I get 2 shotted myself) and also I can give 1 person a PoWater before the party is completely wiped by the archers.
Everything is down to archers and a few supportclasses and the rest of the characters are utterly and completely useless.
Back in time nukers were the top of the food chain and now it has switched. At least back then you could still take a good 4-5 shots from a nuker before dying (with no heals). That leaves enough time for a healer to actually be usefull.
Something is wrong in this game and I really hope that the interlude will fix this once and for all. I remember back in the good old days when pvp was fun and the and a good battle would last more than 10-15 seconds.
Just had to let go of some frustrations...
Did you buy your character?
As there is no filter against bad words I will make it short. What is it you don't understand about getting 2 shot. I levelled my way all the way from Elven Village to level 78 and I have been usefull along the way. But now everything gets 2 shotted by archers. Tell me again if you think it's a propper question to pose?
I really don't understand why you and your party die so fast.
I been up against archer parties and in archer and mixed parties in pvp a lot and i did get 2 shotted sure, but that was by a nuker, but also VS archer/cov parties i managed to stay alive a very long time, rezzed 2 people and healed them and others good enough to turn the tides in our advantage. Anyways the Majority of fights i survived and have not been 2 shotted as much as the fights i have survived. There are always unavoidable moments in fights, and then you get dropped, but if you just stand there just watching your CP going down, your not giving your party any chance/time to drop your opponents.
What i'm missing in the damage list someone put up is the CP pot spamming. The moment your CP goes down you spam CP pots right?
Ofcourse as an elven elder i really think it's the EE buffs that keeps the Damage under control and now with HP/CP elixers i am even harder to drop. I Spam CP pots and use the elixers at key points when i'm lowering HP/CP very fast. I also have a macro, that targets me and puts a major Heal and a Battle Heal on me after i press it 1 time only. Then there are QHP's very expensive unless your clan has a castle and makes them really cheap. Anyways, i totally disagree when someone claims his healer class is useless in pvp, People are really surprised when they see how much i can take and a healer that stays alive does make a difference for the rest of his party.
I do expect to get dropped though, but i have to postpone that crucial moment as long as i can sometimes surviving the whole battle and using 2/3 out of my MP bar which means my party stays alive longer as well. No way healers are useless in pvp...
I agree that against a lot of classes a healer can be usefull in pvp, but the best i can do when I see an enemy archerparty is simply to PR cuz I won't get a 2nd chance.
You can have all the healmacros in the world but it will just go like this then:
You got hit for 4756 damage
Use CP Pot 200 CP
Usebattleheal 400 HP
Use Majorheal 1400 HP
You got hit for 4833 damage
DEAD
..and if im real lucky it will take 3 hits to kill me or the guy I was healing.
As there is no filter against bad words I will make it short. What is it you don't understand about getting 2 shot. I levelled my way all the way from Elven Village to level 78 and I have been usefull along the way. But now everything gets 2 shotted by archers. Tell me again if you think it's a propper question to pose?
Start pvp'ing with proper buffs and you wont get 2 shot.. Dont compare a fully buffed and stacked archer to your gimp prophet buffed p.def.
even with Greater Battle Heal on myself i cant surivive longer than a few secs against 1 archer
they crit for 5k+ thru shield defence... how much would that be when the shield dont block?
and no, its impossible to always stay with front against all archers
even with Greater Battle Heal on myself i cant surivive longer than a few secs against 1 archer
they crit for 5k+ thru shield defence... how much would that be when the shield dont block?
and no, its impossible to always stay with front against all archers
Do you have shield block buffs? If you do, get a shield over d-grade.. If not, get them.
And I really doubt you will get crit for 5k with a shield block.. Care to post a screenshot?
As there is no filter against bad words I will make it short. What is it you don't understand about getting 2 shot. I levelled my way all the way from Elven Village to level 78 and I have been usefull along the way. But now everything gets 2 shotted by archers. Tell me again if you think it's a propper question to pose?
Start pvp'ing with proper buffs and you wont get 2 shot.. Dont compare a fully buffed and stacked archer to your gimp prophet buffed p.def.
With more powerfull butts you can maybe take 3 archer crits. And I am not only talking about my self. Im talking about OL, WC, SWS, Nuker, Archer and what else might be in group.
My point is that against archers healers have nothing to do other than maybe rez or heal a corpse cuz you were already too late.
What does it tell you when a Sagittarius can use noble port to TOI 10 and kill a 5 man party there all level 76+. Nuker = 1 shot / Nuker2 = 1 shot / OL = 2 shot / WC = 2 shot / SE = 1 shot.
I haven't even seen one of these full buffed archers bother with a stun shot lately. Why stun something that you can kill in half the time...
Anyways, i totally disagree when someone claims his healer class is useless in pvp
I think you're refering to me? Well, I hesitate to call myself a healer :p I'm an SE. I heal for crap. But I didn't say I was outright useless - just one of the more useless classes in pvp :)
Everything helps. I do make a difference, but my spot in the party is better given to a good DD or warlock/ES depending on the party setup.
With more powerfull butts you can maybe take 3 archer crits. And I am not only talking about my self. Im talking about OL, WC, SWS, Nuker, Archer and what else might be in group.
My point is that against archers healers have nothing to do other than maybe rez or heal a corpse cuz you were already too late.
You are so wrong.. We had the same discussion on l2blah a while back and I did a little test.. A 77 HE with baium ring crit me for 2k with a shield block.. This was without valor (500 more p.def).
CP pot spamming is not press it only once, you can get a lot more CP from CP pots and elixers then the damage you recieve at first. I been up against an Archer/Cov party and was targetted from the beginning still managed to stay alive for a very long time during that battle, i did get dropped but that was after i used up my CP pots, CP elixer and HP elixer. Still my party won the fight cause i managed to get 2 people up and heal some others who were taking big time damage.
And archers who hits you 3 crits in a row, is very very lucky, that just doesn't happen much no matter what buffs he has. It's a rare thing to happen the majority of fights crits will not be that much on your toon. You are extremely unlucky to get critted for 3 times in a row. And my toon is not even 76 yet, i'm not an Eva's saint yet. And i have been in a lot of pvp fights to make this claim.
I agree with Mec on this 1 and if that Mec is the same as the Mec from Bartz then he really knows what he's saying. I been i n a lot of pvp fights and getting 2 or 3 shotted has happened, it's true it does happen, but not the majority of fights, the majority i survived while in some fights i been macro targetted and still survived the whole attack.
I'm not gonna argue with anyone, but if people give up on their class after leveling even at a higher level then i am at the moment, that's your case, i stick to my own experience wich showed me how tuff my class actually is...or maybe i'm just that good ;)
Hi Champa, i wasn't refering to anyone particular, i just read all posts and playing an active Elven Elder myself who has been in and out of wars for a very long time now, i just couldn't agree with the statements that a Healer is useless.
However i learned about your class and i really agree what a hard time SE's have at the moment, especially in pvp. but i still wouldn't call you useless. Your class probably needs another playstyle as mine and since i haven't played an SE i couldn't tell you what that playstyle should be.
What i'm missing in the damage list someone put up is the CP pot spamming. The moment your CP goes down you spam CP pots right?
Ofcourse as an elven elder i really think it's the EE buffs that keeps the Damage under control and now with HP/CP elixers i am even harder to drop. I Spam CP pots and use the elixers at key points when i'm lowering HP/CP very fast.
Now. THAT is exactly my point on how "useless" healers are.
(yes I know we aren't totally useless, so don't even say it)
If your idea of surviving pvp or a siege is alternating spamming CP pots, CP elixirs, QHPs, GHPs, and HP elixirs the instant they become available....
THEN. THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH DAMAGE VERSUS HEALING POWER.
I have to agree that there is something wrong with the healing in this game when people only manage to stay alive by spamming potions and elixirs, because the heals from live healers cannot keep up with the damage.
If you NEED to spam cp/qhp potions in each and every fight, as often as possible, then the live healers do not have good enough heals. That much should be obvious.
CP/QHP potions and elixirs should be something you throw in to restore your cp/hp to max when you have a quiet moment, they should not be a (superior) substitute to a live healer.
From everything I read, and know myself. It would appear that it is the newer skiills added that have brought in a large amount of this issue. Lets face it the old skills are there to push up the levels, though are still a great addition in later levels. But the more I see on the Here, Noble and 3rd class it does seem that is where in lies the added Mass damage. As to healer classes any of them not needed I have to agree with many it is all in how you play it. The perfect party as many like to call them has been a thing since the beginning and it has changed throughout L2. Archers have always been a strong PvP class, they have distance and evasion and it has always been the Nukers that took them out since they could not evade Nukes. At this point I can not say I have had a chance to get back into PvP I left game for a year thus my SE is 72 and a few hard one levels away from 3rd class change. She is not the fastess healer in the game But she runs with total A Grade and that includes Sheild and Weapon.
The SE has always been abit frusting in PvP but we have always had our places, in a Nuker Party we always ran a EE as well in the past before 3ed class change and I left. Back then with CP a Archer or Dagger could 2 shot you down if they caught it right. This same conversation went on then as well. But the best thing I can say the Healer is more out of it because so few know how to play the classes now. Though in this thread I have seen some very good post on those that know how to play theirs well and with comfort. I mean how much eaiser can they make it, I have been in groups where the whole team got dropped and weapons and armor flew to the winds. They now have it to where the tank class can hate away targets you can mana burn away the archers. I think what we may see her is the lack of healers that make for this control factor. Even I dual Box my SE, though I feel just as comfortable play her straight out. But with lack of groups the only way to level her with any speed is to dual her with my SH. Just remember healer class does not always mean just healing, they have given us some intresting skills that I have seen a few talk about but more ignore that they are even there. :cool:
As there is no filter against bad words I will make it short. What is it you don't understand about getting 2 shot. I levelled my way all the way from Elven Village to level 78 and I have been usefull along the way. But now everything gets 2 shotted by archers. Tell me again if you think it's a propper question to pose?
Start pvp'ing with proper buffs and you wont get 2 shot.. Dont compare a fully buffed and stacked archer to your gimp prophet buffed p.def.
QFT, I think too many people are comparing apples to oranges here. Everyone gets critted and dies fast, but its not like it happnes all the time. Sure, a healer is going to die fast against a melee, thats the way it should be. That is why you need to plan your party correctly. If you are a buffer/healer and trying to take on an archer/mage solo then you deserve to die fast.
My nuker party consisted of a 77 sd, 78 cardinal, 79 hierophant, 77 storm screamer, 78 dominator, 77 archmage and 3 more nukers not 3rd class changed.
Our opponents had 2 set ups:
78 SD, couple of 77+ nukers to include one a soultaker
archer party, bd, 76-77sws, dd's 76-77, cov likely but not positive. Epic jeweled characters were not there, but possibly loaned out to the people that were.
result:
Dance of siren = 4500 crits to me (78 cardinal) with s grade jewels, and divine protection buffed from the soultaker.
Archer crits to me = 2500-3900 crits. I have a shield, no fing clue if I was facing the 77 sr that shot me.
I do believe buffs have a lot to do with it, but the one or two buffs like bless shield, or sws defense songs, should not allow the damage differences we see here. The 77 stormscreamer was one shotted as well from an archer.
The op has some valid arguments, but we are far from useless. The above conditions were extreme, and not all can produce that kind of damage.
... when anyone gets 1 or 2 shotted by archers anyway.
I have a level 78 Eva Saint and I dont remember the last time I have been usefull in a pvp group against archers. With their Draconic bow focus and epic jewels they crit almost every single time so they 1 or 2 shot any character (4-6k damage per shot). With noble buff i can be used for rezzing on the battle field (before I get 2 shotted myself) and also I can give 1 person a PoWater before the party is completely wiped by the archers.
Everything is down to archers and a few supportclasses and the rest of the characters are utterly and completely useless.
Back in time nukers were the top of the food chain and now it has switched. At least back then you could still take a good 4-5 shots from a nuker before dying (with no heals). That leaves enough time for a healer to actually be usefull.
Something is wrong in this game and I really hope that the interlude will fix this once and for all. I remember back in the good old days when pvp was fun and the and a good battle would last more than 10-15 seconds.
Just had to let go of some frustrations...
Is this why you go around solo spots with that 78 MM that won't go ganking without your PoW and Malaria? Because real pvp frightens you both?
Do you know why you do not die so fast? Because nobody cares about any filthy healer anymore. If you do not get 2-shot before pulling PR or are not bishop currently mass-rezing nobody cares about you. You are least threat, you die in 2 hits anyway and can be disposed anytime after all major DDs are killed.
... when anyone gets 1 or 2 shotted by archers anyway.
I have a level 78 Eva Saint and I dont remember the last time I have been usefull in a pvp group against archers. With their Draconic bow focus and epic jewels they crit almost every single time so they 1 or 2 shot any character (4-6k damage per shot). With noble buff i can be used for rezzing on the battle field (before I get 2 shotted myself) and also I can give 1 person a PoWater before the party is completely wiped by the archers.
Everything is down to archers and a few supportclasses and the rest of the characters are utterly and completely useless.
Back in time nukers were the top of the food chain and now it has switched. At least back then you could still take a good 4-5 shots from a nuker before dying (with no heals). That leaves enough time for a healer to actually be usefull.
Something is wrong in this game and I really hope that the interlude will fix this once and for all. I remember back in the good old days when pvp was fun and the and a good battle would last more than 10-15 seconds.
Just had to let go of some frustrations...
Is this why you go around solo spots with that 78 MM that won't go ganking without your PoW and Malaria? Because real pvp frightens you both?
I should have known that you browse these boards too.
If we are 2 people going for pvp ofc we don't go for 9 people parties our own level when we don't have access to a BD/SWS and so on. And ofc we will take malaria if possible and ofc I will use my own buffs... Are you telling me that I shouldn't use POW when pvping?
I am trying to make a general constuctive post on the official boards. If I wanted yours and others endless and stupid remarks I would go to Orphu$ and get flamed.
I say gimp all crits for nukers and archers, so that pvps are longer and that healers are actually usefull. That is all...
QFT, I think too many people are comparing apples to oranges here. Everyone gets critted and dies fast, but its not like it happnes all the time. Sure, a healer is going to die fast against a melee, thats the way it should be. That is why you need to plan your party correctly. If you are a buffer/healer and trying to take on an archer/mage solo then you deserve to die fast.
First, getting 2-3 shot does happen often when end-game parties are fighting each other. If the enemy you're fighting has max (500) crit rate, you will get crit 3x straight 1 in every 8 fights. With the damage end-game archers put out, you will die within 2-3 criticals unless you have heroic valour.
Next point, since it doesn't require a hero skill for your enemy to achieve end-game damage, why should it require a hero skill to survive end-game damage?
I don't think healers are useless, but there are a LOT of fights where there is no opportunity to heal your party. While they have CP remaining, their hp is full and your heals are worthless. Once they have no CP remaining, often their remaining (full) hp will be gone in 1 or 2 attacks maximum. In my opinion either critical damage from daggers, mages and archers should be reduced, armor should give more pdef (especially heavy armor), there should be more defensive buffs available or everyone should have a larger hp pool.
Finally, healers arent afraid of any melees except daggers in pvp. The only threats to healers are dagger stabs, nukes, and arrows. Melees can't really take out anyone effectively, even a healer, unless they use a bow to get the needed burst damage. Melee damage is just too weak compared to what potions are capable of replenishing, considering that the broken mechanics of the game prevent melees from effectively dealing damage to opponents that are moving.
A necro hit you from what I can see, if you had proper buffs he would do 200 dmg.. And I guess you got somewhat bad m.def?
To be fair, you kinda have to choose your poison. Even with the new buff slots, if you add extra buffs to survive archers (like greater shield, advanced block, shield block 6), you wont have room for magic resistance buffs, and vice versa.
And durin a seige, if your sws is already doing hunter/warding/earth, how are they also going to put up vitality, invocation or stormguard?
Heroic valor is a terrific defensive buff, but it should be a regular hierophant buff and not just a hero skill.
... when anyone gets 1 or 2 shotted by archers anyway.
I have a level 78 Eva Saint and I dont remember the last time I have been usefull in a pvp group against archers. With their Draconic bow focus and epic jewels they crit almost every single time so they 1 or 2 shot any character (4-6k damage per shot). With noble buff i can be used for rezzing on the battle field (before I get 2 shotted myself) and also I can give 1 person a PoWater before the party is completely wiped by the archers.
Everything is down to archers and a few supportclasses and the rest of the characters are utterly and completely useless.
Back in time nukers were the top of the food chain and now it has switched. At least back then you could still take a good 4-5 shots from a nuker before dying (with no heals). That leaves enough time for a healer to actually be usefull.
Something is wrong in this game and I really hope that the interlude will fix this once and for all. I remember back in the good old days when pvp was fun and the and a good battle would last more than 10-15 seconds.
Just had to let go of some frustrations...
Is this why you go around solo spots with that 78 MM that won't go ganking without your PoW and Malaria? Because real pvp frightens you both?
I should have known that you browse these boards too.
If we are 2 people going for pvp ofc we don't go for 9 people parties our own level when we don't have access to a BD/SWS and so on. And ofc we will take malaria if possible and ofc I will use my own buffs... Are you telling me that I shouldn't use POW when pvping?
I am trying to make a general constuctive post on the official boards. If I wanted yours and others endless and stupid remarks I would go to Orphu$ and get flamed.
I say gimp all crits for nukers and archers, so that pvps are longer and that healers are actually usefull. That is all...
No, not at all. The point I was getting at is that healers are not useless in pvp and maybe you just don't understand how it works to make you think this.
Most pvp parties in this game are ranged, archer or nuker normally. Good parties will keep their 900 range and not run in too far and get drawn in far enough to the enemy as to get mass focus fired and die regardless of their healers skill. Healers will stay at r within their healing spell range of their party members. Normally within rather than at max range so as not to have to chase someone a little further out.
Point is that even any of the ranged enemies that get within range to get hits off on you should be identified by the rest of your party and eliminated or at least made to kite back to his own party thus saving your bacon.
Healers are far far from useless and the way they are is by no means even remotely a problem. The problem lies with NC's design of the game in how archer crits stack and how the multipliers work. I do agree that archer crits need to be nerfed and that will happen in Interlude, I also believe magic crits have no place in the game...there is absolutely no need for them as mages do constant high damage all the time whereas archers depend on crits which despite having focus SA's are not every hit.
Healers in pvp parties are as important as the Bd or SwS.
And yes, you should always assume I will read it sooner or later ;)
What does it tell you when a Sagittarius can use noble port to TOI 10 and kill a 5 man party there all level 76+. Nuker = 1 shot / Nuker2 = 1 shot / OL = 2 shot / WC = 2 shot / SE = 1 shot.
I haven't even seen one of these full buffed archers bother with a stun shot lately. Why stun something that you can kill in half the time...
I can attest to this btw....I did this a couple days ago on 2 storm screamers and a shillien saint.....each one got 2 shotted. Those 3 were in Vithina's alliance.
And thank you for a constructive post. In most of what you say I agree but the problem is that there is no way you can out run an archer party and they will just pick who ever is running last. Well anyway lets see what happens in interlude...
What does it tell you when a Sagittarius can use noble port to TOI 10 and kill a 5 man party there all level 76+. Nuker = 1 shot / Nuker2 = 1 shot / OL = 2 shot / WC = 2 shot / SE = 1 shot.
I haven't even seen one of these full buffed archers bother with a stun shot lately. Why stun something that you can kill in half the time...
I can attest to this btw....I did this a couple days ago on 2 storm screamers and a shillien saint.....each one got 2 shotted. Those 3 were in Vithina's alliance.
Ye it was in fact you i was talking about ><
What does it tell you when a Sagittarius can use noble port to TOI 10 and kill a 5 man party there all level 76+. Nuker = 1 shot / Nuker2 = 1 shot / OL = 2 shot / WC = 2 shot / SE = 1 shot.
tee hee .. love doing that .. can't remember this particular episode btw so I guess it was Falling
<333 suicidal runs down toi 10 left with mobs on me and 1 shotting someone at the end lol
If we are 2 people going for pvp ofc we don't go for 9 people parties our own level when we don't have access to a BD/SWS and so on.
part of the fun is doing that, going 1 or 2 ppl vs full parties .. sometimes you get lucky and kill 1 or 2 maybe more sometimes you just die or have to bsoe fast .. sometimes you hit the jackpot and kill them all
They are not useless. they are ment to heal and maybe buff and nothing more. not to do damage. this is what a healer is for. if your looking pvp charater choose an other class.
They are not useless. they are ment to heal and maybe buff and nothing more. not to do damage. this is what a healer is for. if your looking pvp charater choose an other class.
Did you read this topic? People are complaining that DD's drop each other extreemely fast, so even fastest heals do not help.
By the way, what buffs do bishops have, other then ww2 and party btb? :confused: And also the prayer, but if the heal doesnt mate at all adding 10% to it's power isnt likely to help much..
hmm i dont get 2-3 shot in pvp on my shillen saint
when i am fully buffed (cov) in party i have well over 1200 pdef and over 1800 mdef.... I survive a beating unless i get critted 3-4 times in a row which is rare.
i guess its all about your setup :)
everyone gears towards casting speed....but amazing casting speed is nothing when the archers take u down in 2 hits.
healers should find a balanace between surviviability and casting speed
I currently use +6 bw light set, dc shield, +3 tat jewel set and sov w/acumen.
I also have a maj robe set but i dont find it as effective in pvp
o.O The stun resist with maj is godly, though I guess as a SS you can get away with light armor because you'd useless for heals in pvp anyway. Probably the next to last target. Seriously, no one is gonna be like zomg someone kill the slow healer! OMG she's gonna battle heal for 350 per! Or throw a rez no one will take even on a 1%er.
Heh. Sorry I have not a SS but a SE, and I know her heals, poor thing ><
If I had my way I'd have all defensive buffs on besides acumen but any mass buffs (songs/dances) are generally all offensive related and you're sunk due to the buff slots. Lord knows I always have plenty of room for more buffs but when 8 other people in the party are maxed out, what can you do.
And TBH, most of the time I actually survive fairly well, I'm not complaining about a few crazy crits. It's the fact that I can spam cast battle on a single target and still be ineffective in a lot of cases.
... when anyone gets 1 or 2 shotted by archers anyway.
I have a level 78 Eva Saint and I dont remember the last time I have been usefull in a pvp group against archers. With their Draconic bow focus and epic jewels they crit almost every single time so they 1 or 2 shot any character (4-6k damage per shot). With noble buff i can be used for rezzing on the battle field (before I get 2 shotted myself) and also I can give 1 person a PoWater before the party is completely wiped by the archers.
Everything is down to archers and a few supportclasses and the rest of the characters are utterly and completely useless.
Back in time nukers were the top of the food chain and now it has switched. At least back then you could still take a good 4-5 shots from a nuker before dying (with no heals). That leaves enough time for a healer to actually be usefull.
Something is wrong in this game and I really hope that the interlude will fix this once and for all. I remember back in the good old days when pvp was fun and the and a good battle would last more than 10-15 seconds.
... when anyone gets 1 or 2 shotted by archers anyway.
I have a level 78 Eva Saint and I dont remember the last time I have been usefull in a pvp group against archers. With their Draconic bow focus and epic jewels they crit almost every single time so they 1 or 2 shot any character (4-6k damage per shot). With noble buff i can be used for rezzing on the battle field (before I get 2 shotted myself) and also I can give 1 person a PoWater before the party is completely wiped by the archers.
Everything is down to archers and a few supportclasses and the rest of the characters are utterly and completely useless.
Back in time nukers were the top of the food chain and now it has switched. At least back then you could still take a good 4-5 shots from a nuker before dying (with no heals). That leaves enough time for a healer to actually be usefull.
Something is wrong in this game and I really hope that the interlude will fix this once and for all. I remember back in the good old days when pvp was fun and the and a good battle would last more than 10-15 seconds.
Just had to let go of some frustrations...
buying character is bad
Nah this guy didn't buy his toon to the best of my knowledge.
Since everyone seems to know how this game works why not make it so that during the upcoming PTS Interlude periode those that have high lvl (main) DD's/Nukers are only allowed to pick a healer/buffer class during the try out.
Us healer/buffers get to pick all classes but a healer/buffer class.
Not sure what this nub is whining so much about... I play a buffer and I very much enjoy it
I lol'ed at that. Really I did.
/sarcasm Please make more of those comments as they cheer me up as the constructiveness of your reply is just mindblowing.. /sarcasm off
By the way, what buffs do bishops have, other then ww2 and party btb? :confused: And also the prayer, but if the heal doesnt mate at all adding 10% to it's power isnt likely to help much..
Prayer = useless in high end pvp. There isn't time to heal a whole group anyhow, so its a waste of a buffslot and Mp to cast it. Cardinals get a divine protection buff at 77. With magic barrier and divine protection, dark vortex ( non crit) from 3k matck screamer = 476dmg at a siege, necros are much less. So, if we want to call this skill a prophecy...erm sure.
... when anyone gets 1 or 2 shotted by archers anyway.
I have a level 78 Eva Saint and I dont remember the last time I have been usefull in a pvp group against archers. With their Draconic bow focus and epic jewels they crit almost every single time so they 1 or 2 shot any character (4-6k damage per shot). With noble buff i can be used for rezzing on the battle field (before I get 2 shotted myself) and also I can give 1 person a PoWater before the party is completely wiped by the archers.
Everything is down to archers and a few supportclasses and the rest of the characters are utterly and completely useless.
Back in time nukers were the top of the food chain and now it has switched. At least back then you could still take a good 4-5 shots from a nuker before dying (with no heals). That leaves enough time for a healer to actually be usefull.
Something is wrong in this game and I really hope that the interlude will fix this once and for all. I remember back in the good old days when pvp was fun and the and a good battle would last more than 10-15 seconds.
Just had to let go of some frustrations...
buying character is bad
Nah this guy didn't buy his toon to the best of my knowledge.
And no I did not buy my char. I was ganked endlessly in FOTD like anyone else trying to exp in a nuker duo. I think most of my enemies that have been in the game for the past year can sign this. Many level 78 Eva Saints are buff pets nowadays and I won't comment on the way that they got it. However I am tired of being called a botted buff pet after having spend this much time in the game getting to where I am now.
And for the guy who suggested that I bought my char I can only say: Read the post and stop comming with stupid comments. I specifically told that I have been very usefull as I levelled to 78 but that the crit damage of certain classes is now too high for it to be fun playing a healer considering that they crit like 80% of the time.
For Cydonius: We do take on full parties but we can't cope with the level 78 COV parties being only 2 people with no BD/SWS and so on. However we have successfully duoed other level 72+ parties along the way. And yes it is fun but we go almost out of mana doing it so its not like an archer who can kill a party like that without breaking a sweat.
I just want to say this thread as been.... very informative. While I do not play a healer or an archer, I do have a Paladin who aspires to be a Phoenix Knight and this thread is allowing me to see what I should expect. Somehow, I get the feeling that against archers, even with the best buffs and gear, I will be dogmeat after a few hits. Am I correct or worrying for nothing?
It should not as bad for the tanks, since you got way more defence and hp then light armor and robe types. Also, in Interlude they say the reflect arrows skill will be boosted...
Tanks are still hard to kill, the problem with healing a tank in pvp is you have to get up to like 50 range to hit an archer, the healer can only heal to umm... what, 900 range? I don't even know!
Lol but whatever range the healer has to be in to heal you, means nukers and archers are going to blow away your healer, then you.
I just want to say this thread as been.... very informative. While I do not play a healer or an archer, I do have a Paladin who aspires to be a Phoenix Knight and this thread is allowing me to see what I should expect. Somehow, I get the feeling that against archers, even with the best buffs and gear, I will be dogmeat after a few hits. Am I correct or worrying for nothing?
Tanks shouldn't be too bad. In interlude your deflect arrow gets a boost and Death Whisper and Dance of Fire (2 of the most important buffs for an archer) get nerfed. Tanks also shield block arrows pretty much every hit. You'll be fine.
I just want to say this thread as been.... very informative. While I do not play a healer or an archer, I do have a Paladin who aspires to be a Phoenix Knight and this thread is allowing me to see what I should expect. Somehow, I get the feeling that against archers, even with the best buffs and gear, I will be dogmeat after a few hits. Am I correct or worrying for nothing?
You have to keep in mind that the archers being discussed in this thread are maxed out... the best in gear, including boss jewels, and all of the right buffs.
What happens is most clans stack thier archer groups first, then their mage groups, then if they happen to have a melee DD group, and the very last is the tanks.
My bet is that if anyone ever built a stacked tank group the way they do an archer group, you would be able to handle being shot with not too much problem.
Problem is, no one does that, because the stacked tank group still won't be able to actually kill the archer group.. it would just take the tanks a little longer to die.
Every time I've had to heal for a tank group, I haven't been killed much by archers or nukers. Its the **** daggers 1 shotting me EVERY SINGLE TIME. That's what kills me because it takes them almost no time to run from the front line to you since heal has such a short range. Not that I'm bitter. But dying in ONE SINGLE SHOT may eventually be the final thing that makes me leave this game.
Shield 3, Agility 3, Concentration 6, Advanced Block 3(EE only), Regeneration 3, Bless Shield 6(only class with lvl 6), Resist shock 4(EE only), Unholy Resistance 3, Mental Shield 4, Clarity 3(EE only) and that's just defensive EE buffs. Then we also have trance, erase, recharge, mana burn, wind shackle as some nice extra skills which also help out a lot in any situation. I'm only lvl 75 atm not 76 yet so can't comment on the Eva's Saint skills.
Maybe EE's don't have much unique skills but the skills we do have make us very versatile and playable in pvp situations. That's why imo EE's can survive very well in combat but reading the posts in here i'm almost thinking i'm just very good :p
the OP is basically crying about how he/she is getting 2-3 shotted by stacked archer s(full buffs drac bow... you know the works)
While I do agree crit dmg is imba it does not negate a healer who knows how to heal in pvp.
EE / Bishop with equivalent cast speed buffs can cast very quickly and can effectivley keep a target up however this is not ht challenge the challenge is hiding yourself and making yourelf a difficult target, when you can learn to do this then you will probaly see yourself complainign less and less about how useless healers are.
I would not go into an organized pvp without a healer, sorry I like to increase my chances to win and a good healer greatly helps :).
but seeing as to the origin of the OP I can understand why he/she is complaining seeing as you were brought up in a pve setting
I don't know how your server is but on Lionna you pretty much have to be alert at all times when being in FOTD levelling. When ever we felt we had a fair chance of winning we fought the gankers - many times with success.
I have played in pvp very often and since I have been level 78 for more than 3 monhts I have had my fair share of pvp. It has been good all along but lately I have just seen how Draconic/Epic Archers rule the pvp scene with no chance of getting any fun out of it.
A general remark to all the people telling me that Archers will never crit for that much and they will not crit so often and so on I have one thing to say: Before you have tried pvp on top level and been against professional archer gank squads please don't make any of those comments. I think any of those Sagittarius/Draconic/Epic/Cov/Full-buffed players can confirm it.
I am not whining about going against better players - I am complaining about that pvp is getting less fun for healers when everyone gets killed by 1-3 shots.
the OP is basically crying about how he/she is getting 2-3 shotted by stacked archer s(full buffs drac bow... you know the works)
While I do agree crit dmg is imba it does not negate a healer who knows how to heal in pvp.
EE / Bishop with equivalent cast speed buffs can cast very quickly and can effectivley keep a target up however this is not ht challenge the challenge is hiding yourself and making yourelf a difficult target, when you can learn to do this then you will probaly see yourself complainign less and less about how useless healers are.
I would not go into an organized pvp without a healer, sorry I like to increase my chances to win and a good healer greatly helps :).
but seeing as to the origin of the OP I can understand why he/she is complaining seeing as you were brought up in a pve setting
Believe me I have tried and even with 2006 casting speed I can't target and heal fast enough to get more than 1 or 2 heals in before the target is dead.
The worst patch in the game was the CP pot spam patch. This game needs less pot/CH reliability and much more party based. Although nukers can be resisted and believe me Prophets even can outheal/spam cp pots faster than I can do damage and mana burn me while at it and still end up critting me for 2k damage with a bow.
Uprising on Bartz have decked out in the best classes and setup you can in Lineage 2 right now. What do you expect? They have CoV and archers to fill it up with heros and bladedancers and swordsingers and locks. They farm Antharas and Baium, alot of them have Baium Rings and Antharas Earrings. Then to back it up for if nukers ever rise again, they have nuker subclasses.
I'm surprised Interlude isn't coming with a Resist Arrow buff for Prophets. But now you'll have to suck it up and watch as in Interlude archers increase their max range and damage while all physical damage dealing classes suffer from a critical damage nerf.
the OP is basically crying about how he/she is getting 2-3 shotted by stacked archer s(full buffs drac bow... you know the works)
While I do agree crit dmg is imba it does not negate a healer who knows how to heal in pvp.
EE / Bishop with equivalent cast speed buffs can cast very quickly and can effectivley keep a target up however this is not ht challenge the challenge is hiding yourself and making yourelf a difficult target, when you can learn to do this then you will probaly see yourself complainign less and less about how useless healers are.
I would not go into an organized pvp without a healer, sorry I like to increase my chances to win and a good healer greatly helps :).
but seeing as to the origin of the OP I can understand why he/she is complaining seeing as you were brought up in a pve setting
Believe me I have tried and even with 2006 casting speed I can't target and heal fast enough to get more than 1 or 2 heals in before the target is dead.
SUggestions
Use BON and rez
learn to pre emptive target / heal
learn to react faster
learn to use cp pots / elixirs
seriously either the heales we have are that much better then you or you need to step it up
you have no sympathy from me and I do hope to come across your groups with my own and will very much enjoy watching your corpse
If 2 archers assist on you and shoot 1 arrow at you each you are already dead. Instead of telling me I don't know my class and that I cannot play as a healer please go through the full post and see what it is really about. It is about too high crit damage on some classes compared to the frequency they crit. Thus leaving no use for healers in this particular type of pvp.
What scares me the most is that you are also a high level player but I guess you have a lot to discover about the game still...
If 2 archers assist on you and shoot 1 arrow at you each you are already dead. Instead of telling me I don't know my class and that I cannot play as a healer please go through the full post and see what it is really about. It is about too high crit damage on some classes compared to the frequency they crit. Thus leaving no use for healers in this particular type of pvp.
What scares me the most is that you are also a high level player but I guess you have a lot to discover about the game still...
I agree with you about the damage, it's wrong. However if you or your party put themselves in a position to get 1-2 shotted on a consistent basis then you're doing something wrong.
I know Aumaan would probably say the same thing. And you can keep alive with archers on you, both as a healer and someone being healed. I've seen it done on our server and I believe mec that posted here is a robe user and tanked a full volley of end game archers in a video that was posted over on L2Blah.
I outhealed over 3x my HP once not including the CP I lost in a mass archer volley; pure heals. But if I have to carry 2 kinds of cp pots, elixirs and whatever else to get through pvp I'm just not going to play any more. This component stuff drives me nuts.
If 2 archers assist on you and shoot 1 arrow at you each you are already dead. Instead of telling me I don't know my class and that I cannot play as a healer please go through the full post and see what it is really about. It is about too high crit damage on some classes compared to the frequency they crit. Thus leaving no use for healers in this particular type of pvp.
What scares me the most is that you are also a high level player but I guess you have a lot to discover about the game still...
I cant believe you keep going about this, everything you say is just wrong and if you really want me to I could prove it..
I have a fraps of two equal groups fighting in a 9v9, archer fully stacked with cov and 3 heros vs mages fully stacked with cov and 3 heros. The mages won without losing one person. Now tell me how is that possible if everyone is dead in 1-2 shots?
I outhealed over 3x my HP once not including the CP I lost in a mass archer volley; pure heals. But if I have to carry 2 kinds of cp pots, elixirs and whatever else to get through pvp I'm just not going to play any more. This component stuff drives me nuts.
CP pot macro for the two diffrent pots works just fine and elixir is once every 5 min.. Not to mention, more to do while pvp = more skill (if you dont use the not to mention here program or nostromo)..
mec, I think the healers point here is that while everyone is fullybuffed, PvP is way too quick, the quicker PvP is the less effective a healer is. She seems to believe a skilled healer should be able to keep her party alive until she is either dead or oom without pot usage.
I agree with this, but as it turns out critical stacking archers deal way too much damage right now. You are 900 range and will be even longer range in Interlude and you can simply get 500 crit rate and critical every other hit. Could be between 2-8 shots to kill someone depending on luck with criticals.
Since Chronicle 1 I have found normal hits to be virtually only slightly better than a miss and even cringe on the fact that I use soulshots to put that worthless damage out. But then you have the criticals... that are commonly chained to 5-10 times in a row that deal 5x-10x the damage a normal hit would do. A 200 damage normal hit can turn into 2k damage. A 400 damage critical can turn into 4k damage.
But in Interlude it seems that 400 damage critical will turn into a 2800 damage critical. It's a good change and I hope even more balance changes comes out of it, and it's sad to see full party archer/melee exp speed will take a dip while nukers get a couple boxed SE's with an ever larger MP pool.
Well, she pretty much said healers suck and isnt needed in pvp. And that is very far from true. Id say the opposite.. Ive been in fights that lasts well over 5 min..
And I agree crits are way to strong but not as strong as people here make them sound like.
mec is pretty much getting to what I am saying, you can live if you knwo hwo to do it... I don't hit cp pots I have all that macro'd ;) just push my nostromo macro and watch the cp flow haha
and vith how are you goign to tell me I don't know what I am talking about when I am PART of those stacked archer groups that is killing your members and also targetting me, you think i've never been crit for 4-5k? You see me crying on boards here saying that robes are useless?
if you got an issue with arrows maybe hide yourself better? maybe learn to use cp pots / elixirs? You CAN out heal the dmg and I have seen it and there are pdef buffs that can help slightly, COV helps defensively as well as offensievley maybe get a DC to buff you if you pvp?
Using a Nostromo macro is not being skill-full other then maybe being able to program the macro to work perfectly.
But if you think a Nostromo macro is oke then I guess there is a very small line between playing and having an other program play the game for you. Keep in mind that the L2-macro's are interruptible and this was I guess intended. (And before you start telling me that Nostromo's are allowed: yes I know that HGMSpam covered this issue so don't start there and allso know I have a Nostromo myself. Difference is I do NOT use the Nostromo macro's or the Logitech G15 Macro's for that matter as that would be an unbreakable macro which are considered a gray area.)
CP pots came when we asked for it as even back then the crits where an issue; same goes for the CP-bar in the first place. PvP and PKing went too fast. Spamming CP-pots/Elixers diminish the role of the active healer which is the OP's complaint.
Anyway if you think spamming pots is oke then I guess you think that people using hormons etc to enhance their sport abilities are oke too.
When you grasp that concept you know why some healers think this way. Lastly I like to point out that words as "crying" "noob" and the like are by no means part of an adult discussion.
The rate at which you can spam pots is stupid, I totally agree. However as long as it gives me a legal advantage, I'll be using it.
You can't liken using pots to using performance enhancing drugs in sport btw. Those drugs are deemed illegal by the sports governing body. Pot spam is something integrated into our game by it's governing body. Completely different. Had you said using walker or something like that your analogy would have been a valid one.
The rate at which you can spam pots is stupid, I totally agree. However as long as it gives me a legal advantage, I'll be using it.
You can't liken using pots to using performance enhancing drugs in sport btw. Those drugs are deemed illegal by the sports governing body. Pot spam is something integrated into our game by it's governing body. Completely different. Had you said using walker or something like that your analogy would have been a valid one.
Guess I should have added: using a unbreakable macro/out of the game program in the spamming of pots etc sentence.
And yes spamming pots/elixers are not illegal as they were added by the Gameprovider itself.
healers are not useless they're just underpowered...mana burn added to healers and buffers to defend themselves...
but its not enough... NC plz add some skills to buffers/healers they're lost in pvp 1v1 they need some skills to defend themselves....
let me get this straight you are comparing performance enhancing drugs AKA steroids to sports to using a programmed nostromo macro which was deemed LEGAL by the GM's themselves?
the only difference between an in game macro for cp and the nostromos is I don't hae to constnatly hit they macro key, and what is this about interruptions? how do you interrupt using pots I am curious? All I did was have it auto spam it while pushed unti l pushed again nothin too extreem or game breaking lol.
and again learn to hide yourself from thsoe drac bows seriously ....
healers are not useless they're just underpowered...mana burn added to healers and buffers to defend themselves...
but its not enough... NC plz add some skills to buffers/healers they're lost in pvp 1v1 they need some skills to defend themselves....
The only time you should ever be worried about a 1v1 as a healer class is in the olympiads.
I am level 75 EE, almost my whole clan is subclassed, most are 77 and up and also the people we fighting are 76 and up.
I do think i'm quite out there on the top levels? And i survived the majority of fights i have been in lately, while being at war for several months in a row and doing almost nothing else but pvp on a daily bases.
The majority of fights i survived although i have died several times i still haven't been 2 shotted by archers, only times i was 2 shotted was by a Nuker.
let me get this straight you are comparing performance enhancing drugs AKA steroids to sports to using a programmed nostromo macro which was deemed LEGAL by the GM's themselves?
the only difference between an in game macro for cp and the nostromos is I don't have to constantly hit they macro key, and what is this about interruptions? how do you interrupt using pots I am curious? All I did was have it auto spam it while pushed unti l pushed again nothing too extreme or game breaking lol.
and again learn to hide yourself from those drac bows seriously ....
Nostromo = only allowed as they have a hard time seeing if you us a Nostroma-key that points to a macro made via the L2 macro menu or one that is programmed in the Nostromo program itself. If you are there at the keyboard and respond promptly at the GM call if they call you you are "legal".
Ingame macro work pretty must like a chain that will break the second you are hit hard. To start the ingame macro again you need to restart it. So if you make a CP-pot macro ingame you will see it break if you get hit. It will allso break if you hit any other key(s).
Nostromo macro: same as ingame macro however even if you get hit it will continue to work without you having to restart it.
This time the CP-Pot macro continues will even while you hit other keys you may use to attack people with spells/debuffs etc.
See the difference?
To the GM's: if I am getting too detailed please remove this post.
Nostrome macros and the use of it and it's software is allowed by NC. So many people have esnt an emial to support asking about it only to be told it's ok I have lost count.
Anyone using one for such purposes has absolutely nothing to fear.
and I fail to see your point, its deemed legal and I have the device so am I supposed to just not use somethign that is available to me?
Well if you don't you don't.
I am not going to derail the thread more by trying to show you the light.
Baseline is that if unbreakable macro's are allowed to be used in this game then the ingame macro system would have been created that way. It allso would be oke to have your shop up and have it shout 24/7. If you do a little reading it is not.
Another thing I seem to fail to grasp then is what makes a Nostromo-macro user skilled. Is it the fact he/she can program the macro in the software that comes with it?
The answer would be yes to that question, but are you skilled at the game in general?
My answer would be No. Simple fact is that if you want to be called skilled in my book you as a player would be using the current shortcuts/hotbar only set up in certain way where you keep going by making the clicks/points and moves via the mouse and keyboard only. Anything other then that is either lazyness on the part of the player or being unskilled.
If anything I like to see the CP pots get the same as Elixers in use with the same cooldown timer. As to pots in general, well lets put it this way: All pots either buffs/heal or CP are the downfall to some extend to the active healer/buffer. If this was not the case the box/pet-healer/buffer would not have been an issue in the first place. Again this is my opinion.
I am level 75 EE, almost my whole clan is subclassed, most are 77 and up and also the people we fighting are 76 and up.
I do think i'm quite out there on the top levels? And i survived the majority of fights i have been in lately, while being at war for several months in a row and doing almost nothing else but pvp on a daily bases.
The majority of fights i survived although i have died several times i still haven't been 2 shotted by archers, only times i was 2 shotted was by a Nuker.
I am a 78 Cardinal with about 8k cp+hp, I carry a shield in PVP, have tat jewels and for seige pvp, have heirophant buffs. I have been 2 shotted by an archer on more than one occasion. It does happen. I have also seen my 77 stormscreamer and 77 archmages get one shotted. It does happen.
CoV> Robe users is all I am saying, argue on !!
Not happen if you are hero EE with valor.And if you are not then its your fault.
lol yes, that is what many people always bring as an argument against "people should not get one- or two-shotted". Just always have a hero to buff you, just get boss jewelry. And if you cannot do that, you suck and need to learn 2 play.
Not happen if you are hero EE with valor.And if you are not then its your fault.
lol yes, that is what many people always bring as an argument against "people should not get one- or two-shotted". Just always have a hero to buff you, just get boss jewelry. And if you cannot do that, you suck and need to learn 2 play.
even if nostromo is "legal", it's accomplishes the same thing as walker and it IS software not designed by NCSoft so it is cheating imo, as with anyone else who is reasonable
to the point, archers are not that scarey in pvp, if an archer has CoV he is very very slow and is easy to be kited, if an archer has PoF he has low mdef and will die quickly, and is still kind of slow
sure you don't want to run into a team of archers with the absolute maximum in pvp buffs (which on hinde like, uh never happens) but I sure wouldn't want to run into a party of nukers with that set up either.
archers alone are a joke, nukers are a threat, archers without DoF and a prophecy might as well not even show up imo.
btw, every healer class has light mastery, get a draconic set and with only 78prophet buffs u can have 1300+ pdef without zerk, and like 1200 with. Add in earth, valor or whatever else and u will have very high pdef and your cast speed is still fine since you actually have the ability to tank some damage. add in dance of conc, acumen weapon baium ring and malaria and maybe even ES or SWS songs for reuse you will have pretty much instant casting and 2000~ pdef
I have been 2 shotted by an archer on more than one occasion. It does happen. It does happen. CoV> Robe users is all I am saying
I do realise it happens, but the claim here is, it happens everytime a healer enters a combat situation and therefore a healer is totally useless. If that is what people think they should perhaps try a different approach while in pvp situations, since their initial way of playing definately doesn't work.
I been up against a Cov/archer party several times, but didn't die in all fights and have not been 2 shotted in any of those fights, and i don't have boss jewels or special buffs. I think i must be awesome after reading these posts :p
Healers hide and pop out and heal , stay in the back and make them go to you, not a hard concept ... do you die ? sometiems ... we all do but there are ways to survive..... I live through the 4-5k crits for longer then 2 shots.... cp pots elixirs.... use them get full buffs (and for those complainign about COV'd teams then maybe get CoV yourself?)
End game pvp with end game buffs requires you have end game buffs yourself, if you are getting rolled by a cov team wiht no cov yourself then maybe just maybe go out with equal buffs? just PP buffs don't cut it anymore.
You'd be surprised ** how long you can stay up with the proper buffs.... granted I have a considerably higher HP / CP value then average mages but still.
If ur EE is getting 2 shotted, i would recommend partying with more talanted players. EE can support pvp groups in alot more ways than simply spamming heals. Fastest rez, fastest running healer, greater heals that are just as fast cast as other healers battle-heal AND if all else, PR2 or return 2 ftw. Granted no char holds up very well when targeted by multiple endgame fully geared archers... but then again if that is who your fighting you must at least have some on your team as well ^^.
It does happen. CoV> Robe users is all I am saying
Both times were at a siege.
I do realise it happens. I think i must be awesome after reading these posts :p
Or just lucky to not be hit twice in a row. I totally agree healers are not useless, but it does suck at those times when you are battle healing a dd after they get hit and still see them die because the crit amount was more than their total HP. I do however tell them in vent they just got owned and we laugh about it.
To modify the OP's original intent, I am not saying it happens everytime, but I am reading from a lot of you saying this isn't happening, your too nub or whatever. To play the advocate:
Getting a 78 DC ~ Sure, headed to kmart on my lunch break
Get an S grade set for pvp ~ Um yeah, how many of the S grade users talking all this trash about get this or get that are level 5 in their respective alliances, and earned their own recipes through legit means...(not a shot at iodine, zariche > quests)
Better buffs ~ Sure, that is continuous at a siege.
I am not whining nor supporting the pvp aspect of large scale high level owning. What I am saying is the common player doesn't have the above options open to them everytime they pvp. Yes there are solutions to every problem. I guess the question is, to what ends will each person go to to solve it.
You CAN out heal the dmg and I have seen it and there are pdef buffs that can help slightly, COV helps defensively as well as offensievley maybe get a DC to buff you if you pvp?
considering there are only 3 people on my server who can cast CoV
and only 4 prophets (I think) that can cast PoF . That is quite hard to come by
Grab a healer buddy and just bomb the archer with Trance, Windshackel, Root, Weakness, MP DRAIN, Trance, MP Drain, MP, Trance, MP, MP, MP, and go melee his ***. (heal each other as needed) Then laugh at him. and say HA YOU LOST TO HEALERS lol lol LOL. It COULD work.
If this isnt your style, then make a more pvp healer like an Overlord.
Grab a healer buddy and just bomb the archer with Trance, Windshackel, Root, Weakness, MP DRAIN, Trance, MP Drain, MP, Trance, MP, MP, MP, and go melee his ***. (heal each other as needed) Then laugh at him. and say HA YOU LOST TO HEALERS lol lol LOL. It COULD work.
If this isnt your style, then make a more pvp healer like an Overlord.
It could work, if the archer was not wearing any jewels.
I made a big COULD for those reasons. Ofcourse everything might not land etc, but it could. And this would really need atless 2 of them spammign there skills at once and watching each others HP for these shots the archer will get off between trances. But the debuffs are a must, slow him down a bit.
Grab a healer buddy and just bomb the archer with Trance, Windshackel, Root, Weakness, MP DRAIN, Trance, MP Drain, MP, Trance, MP, MP, MP, and go melee his ***. (heal each other as needed) Then laugh at him. and say HA YOU LOST TO HEALERS lol lol LOL. It COULD work.
You meant grab several, since EE/bishops only get trance and not root, nor windshackle, and I don't even know who gets high levels of weakness.
That would be funny though, a bishop/ee/se/prophet ganking party.