Destro vs Tyrant

Which levels faster, a Destroyer using AOE, or a Tyrant? Assume an OOP buffer.

AOE characters with OOP usually outlevels anything else.

Destroyers are awesome with a pole. Even without buffs, just Heal, Greater Heal and Haste potions, my raider was able to solo pull 2.5-3 rooms in a Necro.

Add VR and Prophet/SE buffs to that and that's insane pulling/aoe'ing.

Yes, the only problem with a Destroyer is finding enough empty rooms together in the cats/necs, lol. Other players sometimes come by and are surprised that my Destroyer and and boxed buffer are working 3 rooms at a time. (Out of politeness, if they ask, I usually give them one room, or leave at the end of the buff cycle, if I've had the rooms a while.)

Well, in comparison to other characters, how well does a Tyrant level? I want to decide on a first subclass to get to noblesse relatively quickly, but I want to choose a class that's relatively useful, not to mention cool. There isn't much cooler than insane attack speed.

Insane atack speed would belong to a Tyrant, not destroyer. Destro attacsk pretty slowly and hits like a truck.

poor orcs

Insane atack speed would belong to a Tyrant, not destroyer. Destro attacsk pretty slowly and hits like a truck.

One thing I wanna add to this is that in my old ally, I have seen a Grand Khavatari with full S grade having problems dealing enough damage to Warcryer in A grade.

So I wasn't too impressed with all that speed.

If a Destroyer has buffs for speed of attack, they are much more fun to play, IMO. Not just because they do more damage, but because it's more fun to watch them on the computer screen, IMO.

Well, in comparison to other characters, how well does a Tyrant level?

So far, PleChan's 'Snack Tyrant' levels pretty well; I rolled BD to go with his Tyrant.

It isn't quite so fast as the SnackHowler/Necro duo we first did with our subs, but it's still quite fast and pretty enjoyable to play. Definately one of the better melee classes.

We actually have been in AOE parties quite a bit; Fire and Inspiration go over well with polearm users and the Tyrant has 2 AOE skills that deal some pretty decent damage.

Ok, how about for manoring? Manor is my major source of income, and i would prefer a class that manors pretty effectively. A destro using AOE can't manor all that well, but a tyrant can.

you cant manor effectively with aoe, simply doesnt work.

tyrant may have fast atk speed, but an S grade grand kebob with the same buffs as my he has less than half the DPS.

Then again HE is the best class in the game so you cant really compare a Tyrant to them. Vs other melee-dd's Tyrants deal out great damage if you know how to play them.

you cant manor effectively with aoe, simply doesnt work.

I pull a group of mobs [usually 8 to 16] and use polearm and when there are just a few left I seed them all and as they die shift-select the dead mob and harvest. Works good for me. Fast XP and also manor.

WOuld love to see that seriously :)

The recast timer to seed is like 5-6 sec right now and :) really hard doing that on AoE and get many mobs seeded, I usually just get every second mob seeded when I play in catas as it takes to long to reseed.

WOuld love to see that seriously :)

The recast timer to seed is like 5-6 sec right now and :) really hard doing that on AoE and get many mobs seeded, I usually just get every second mob seeded when I play in catas as it takes to long to reseed.

I think you misunderstood what I was [trying] to say in my earlier post:

I pull a group of mobs [usually 8 to 16] and use polearm and when there are just a few left I seed them

So I usually only seed 1 to 3 mobs per pull. Still it is decent manor output; not as much manor fruit as I get when I use a 2H sword and seed one mob at a time but a lot more XP.

And I agree with your comment on the seed recast time. What gives with that change? It really stinks as well as the chance to get interrupted.

When tehre is a FEW left, aka 1-3 mobs left you will seed one of the mob and then seed the next 5-6 sec later and so fort, I don't see hte point in this really.

If I have few mobs left and seed one, I kill them long before seeding is useable again :(

When tehre is a FEW left, aka 1-3 mobs left you will seed one of the mob and then seed the next 5-6 sec later and so fort, I don't see hte point in this really.

The reason I do this is that in the catacombs, with 2 rooms, I can keep them empty. So, when 1 to 3 mobs are left after a pull I seed them one at a time, using my 2H sword. I have to wait for the mobs to respawn anyway so I might as well get some manor fruit while I'm waiting.

Also, I usually alternate between using Guts for one pull and Frenzy for the next pull. This means I have to get back to 30% HP at the end of each pull. By killing the last few mobs one at a time I let them knock me down to 30% so I can get ready for the next pull.

then you arent really doing aoe and manor simultaneously.

I'm also facing the decision destroyer versus tyrant at the moment - the opinions on their power, especially tyrants, seem to vary hugely. :confused: It's really difficult to figure out. ><

I suppose it has something to do with tyrants being one of those complex classes. :/

Difficult to get an impression of the class for myself too - I'm having a hard time finding reliable info especially about the reset time of zealot and the totems. ><

well as of this post im a lvl 57 tyrant sub with +4dex, +6 fist blades with haste (im poor!), and doom light set. full buffs including zerk, puma totem, but no bd dances. 905 attack speed and the totem refresh in approximately 50-51 seconds.

Hope that gives u some answers to ur question Maline. As for zealot ill let u know in about 40% ^^

Thank you, much appreciated!

I'm also facing the decision destroyer versus tyrant at the moment - the opinions on

It's not that hard really.

Do you enjoy ripping things apart with your bare hands or do you enjoy the feel of a blunt smashing into someones skull? :)

I know its gives me so much pleasure in Groups to know when I hit the mob. Its like the mob is slowly dieing then POW oppss that was me..

dest lvl faster then tyrants to OP

While we're at recovery speeds - does anyone know how fast crush of doom resets? :p

Think Zealot is like 10 mins with buffs.

Crush of Doom resets pretty fast, probably in about 10 to 15 seconds at 534 attack speed. It is almost fast enough to come ready with 2X HP mobs so that I can do the last hit with it on each mob.

I activate Zealot with about 800 attack speed. It is up 60 seconds then down about 180 seconds. With the same setup Frenzy is up for 90 seconds and down about 160 seconds. I don't know if I'm wrong on this but it seems to me that Guts resets faster than Frenzy but I haven't measured it explicitly. I'm recently a fan of using Rage + Guts + Zealot for pulling mob trains and it seems that the cooldown for Guts is shorter than Frenzy.

Tallum Heavy + Haste2 + Zerk2 + Cursed Dagger Risk: Haste = 804 attack speed

Tallum Heavy + Haste2 + Zerk2 + Infernal Master = 534 attack speed

I don't have any DEX tattoos at the moment. Once I get to 70 or so I will add them for the attack speed and accuracy increase.

Destroyers + Frenzy + Rage + a lucky Crit = Dead people everywhere.

Just for clarification - up 90 and down 160 means that you have to wait 70 seconds before reuse or 160 after frenzy has worn?

How is the reset time on rage (although I know it's short, I'm still curious just how short ^^).

Unbuffed frenzy and guts are both on a 5 minute cool down, so up 90, down 210 before you can use it again. Rage is 3 minute cool down so up 90, down 90. I am not sure on zealot, as I dont have it.

Well, I know the unbuffed values... but I'm wondering about buffed (I have zerk 2 and haste 2 usually and will be buying a rsk. haste dagger for level 40). ^^ Since I don't know what attack speed is "unbuffed".

Is it 330 (unbuffed barehanded human) or is it human with some sort of weapon?

I timed Frenzy at 804 attack speed:

90 seconds active (the buff is up)
158 seconds of waiting (after buff ends until it is ready again)

So I don't think the timer is 5mins or it would be ready a lot faster at 800 attack speed.

Ahh, thanks. I get it now - that sounds a little disappointing. :( Means no way to keep one of two going all the time unless you get some bigger buffs, I guess. u.u Sounds roughly like frenzy -> guts -> nothing each about 90 seconds for me. ^^;

I timed Frenzy at 804 attack speed:

90 seconds active (the buff is up)
158 seconds of waiting (after buff ends until it is ready again)

So I don't think the timer is 5mins or it would be ready a lot faster at 800 attack speed.

that is almost a minute faster of a cool down which is considerably faster.

It would make the default attack speed something around 664 - which sounds highly unlikely.

Couldn't be that the base reset is 10? That would put base attack speed pretty dang close to 330, which is a good value to guess with. ^^

Ahh, thanks. I get it now - that sounds a little disappointing. :( Means no way to keep one of two going all the time unless you get some bigger buffs, I guess. u.u

Actually, it is possible to have either Frenzy or Guts active pretty much all the time in conjunction with Rage.

It generally takes 20+ seconds to go from 100% HP to 30% HP in no armor (find a mob, let it wail on you, kill it, activate buffs). I've been thinking about getting a conversion weapon to make this faster [switch to conversion weapon to get to 60% HP, remove armor, attack mob drop to <30% HP, kill mob].

1> Assume at 30% HP, turn on Rage+Frenzy
2> Pull large train of mobs, kill with polearm = 90 seconds or less
3> Take off armor, kill mob and end at 30% HP = 20 seconds
4> Activate Rage + Guts
5> Pull large train of mobs and kill = 90 seconds or less
6> Take off armor and drop to 30% HP = 20 seconds
7> Begin again at step 1

This eats up 90+20+20 = 130 seconds so may have to wait another 20 or 30 seconds before restarting. But usually it takes some time for mobs to respawn and to run from room to room to build the train so I don't usually notice having to wait.

The only annoying thing is Zealot. It is on a longer timer than Guts and Frenzy so usually I get Zealot on only one of two attempts. I like Zealot on Guts more if I have to pick since my Patk is so much lower on Guts.

I'm not positive, but pretty sure you can get close to 800 attack speed with the Cursed Dagger and Risk: Haste SA at level 40 if you get DEX+4/5 tats, Haste2, and Zerk2.

Note that with Frenzy you blow through mobs super fast. You easily one shot 2X HP mobs on a crit. The problem with Frenzy is being able to find enough mobs to use up the 90 seconds.

With Guts you have to be careful to not use up too much time pulling the mob train since Patk is so much lower. It is possible that the buffs drop before all the mobs are dead on 4X HP mobs. That is why I like Zealot on Guts so I can pull the train faster and get the attack speed and crit chance improvement.

I won't pole because I need money ... and poling makes for very poor Maline ... I'm also sure if dropping my HP to 30% of -8 or -9 CON on a regular basis is such a good idea. :p Using a two-hander (and dagger for skill activation) for single target likely - I hope that I can regulate HP drop simply by pulling some more adds than I can regenerate back with VR (or just not get VR and use the prophet instead).

If the default attack speed = 325 then the timer for Frenzy would be exactly 8 minutes. So that sounds about right.

At 325 attack speed:
up 90 seconds
down 390 seconds
total 480 seconds = 8min

At 804 attack speed:
up 90 seconds
down 390*325/804 = 158 seconds
total 248 seconds

That is what I measured. So 325 sounds reasonable with 8 minute timer.

That would also match the patch notes. :D Thank you!

1/3rd of the time is still pretty massive. ;]

I would expect default attack speed is 333.

Default casting speed is 333, so attack speed being 333 makes even more sense. And your number is extream close to 333 so it gotta be it.

Maline, can you elaborate why poling is not good, money-wise? My main is a Destroyer, so I am very interested in this?

I manor. There are some levels where I think poling in catacombs might be more effective, but for the most part, I would hate to lose the manor profit.

I think 7mil (if I got up and sold to a buy store right now) or 9.75 mil (if I stay on my bum until my mats are sold - unfortunately, their price dropped quite a bit) from level 5-20 speak for themselves. =)

well my tyrant does ok i guess with Prophet buffs n VR, but as a sub, if ur looking to go relativelly fast, u need archer or nuker. But i duno if thats an option for your playstyle perhaps. If its between those 2 only, i think the aoe tactic with Destroyer would difintly be faster then a tyrant even if the later one as full buffs. I would go destroyer.

Cheers!!

just a note. With absolute maximum buffs u can get frenzy to about 90 secs up and 40 secs down

just a note. With absolute maximum buffs u can get frenzy to about 90 secs up and 40 secs down

Using the 158 seconds I measured and plugging in max buffs with boss jewels into a spreadsheet I used came up with 43 seconds so sounds close to Tokara's value. Here is what I used:

Tallum Heavy
Cursed Dagger with Risk: Haste (attack speed = 804)
DEX+5 (attack speed = 845)
CoV (attack speed = 1013)
Dance of Fury (attack speed = 1165)
Song of Champion or Renewal (-30% skill reuse)
Gift of Seraphim (-35% skill reuse)
Ring of Baium (attack speed 1212)
Necklace of Valakas (-10% skill reuse)

If you drop the boss jewels it goes from 42 seconds to about 50 seconds.

Does that look right to you Tokara?

I manor. There are some levels where I think poling in catacombs might be more effective, but for the most part, I would hate to lose the manor profit.

I think 7mil (if I got up and sold to a buy store right now) or 9.75 mil (if I stay on my bum until my mats are sold - unfortunately, their price dropped quite a bit) from level 5-20 speak for themselves. =)

Just as a side note. From level 40 until 55 I think you would make good adena poling in the catacombs and selling the AA you get. At those levels I could easily make > 1m AA = 3m adena in < 2hrs plus about 500K to 1m adena if I had access to 2 rooms (16 mobs). You get about 50%/hr average from 40-52. So thats about 24 hours maybe to get to 52 and at the end you'd earn maybe 12m AA and 6m adena = 42m adena total. I don't know if you can make more than that with the manor or not.

More per level, yes. More pwer time only with a 'sweet spot seed'.

I'm currently making around 2mil/3mil hour before AA drops, but after that, for example, there are a few 'draught' levels without a really good seed. Then it picks up again.

1> Assume at 30% HP, turn on Rage+Frenzy
2> Pull large train of mobs...
3> die before you can gather a single room of mobs into a clump.
4>accept 20% rez
5>repeat at step 1

fixed it for you. you might want to add some battle roar or zealot in there, or get somone else (preferably a TK or BH) to gather the mobs for you.

The healing up in between going to 30% and pulling was pretty much obviously implied ... I'd think.

The healing up in between going to 30% and pulling was pretty much obviously implied ... I'd think.

Actually, I DON'T heal up always. I don't waste time with Guts and it's not necessary. I just pop GHP periodically while pulling the train. With Frenzy I use Battle Roar and pop GHP while pulling the train.