Nukers are overpowered. Yes we all know that but why? Mystics are less important than Tanks/DD/Archers yet if you are making a group of lvl 67+ players u can get a full party of Nukers and NO TANKS! Nukers need some nerfing espacilly SpellHowlers,SpS,Necros! Spellhowlers are too easy to lvl! i got a lvl 40 one in about 2 weeks, why? becuase they 1 hit EVERYTHING! SpS is just overpowered and Necros can just repeat quests and Ding to lvl 80 in no time! i rerolled to one of these classes once, but i dno why! NERF EM PLEASE NCSOFT - THEN there will be more partys going - more of a community - more of everything that NCSoft want
Also i must say - Weekly Prices are becoming KILLED by farmers! I know farming is not illegal but i once bouh a tallum helm for 22mil, now to buy it i need 80mil?? 80 mil and 2k a drop?? guys thats is crazy!!
Our game is amazing but yet newbs find it hard to start lineage because of item prices! or how little adena drops! 22 of my friends quit because they could never get enough adena! The academy system has helped but guys- we still need some more help!! if u dont beilive in me - Cuss all u like - This is my beilfes and i know this could help!
Naw, when they changed the way the XP bonus applies to groups is when they killed large parties. Before that, Nukers were just another DD in the party.
Reason people do not play a tank is because it is not needed. Even daggers/archers can tank most of the time with no real downsides (as long as your party can deal enough damage).
Still this thread isn't very constructive and i guess it will be locked.
but dude - Nukers dont use as much SS as a Archers - Archers cost the most - WE CAN NEVER GET A TANK! Nukers overpowerness RUINED PARTYS FOR EVERYONE!
Whoa whoa whoa, My soulshots cost the same as yours per hour and i have to pay for servitors and cubics. A dagger far exceeds the SS cost of high level archers. Necros have to use material components for their most general spells. While nukers are a problem they pale in comparison to archers.
As Biggy said - it's about party bonus. Duo/trio gives better XP and there is no place for tank, maybe if, then just run around and collect drops while being pleveled by nukers.
It wasn't like that before as I remember - people were not happy to take nukers into parties, because they had some mana issues and were not able to give constant damage output all the time.
i can tell you that a SPS isn`t OVERPOWERD.
We lost Sleep in C5 and this was our joker. not only in pvp but also in Pve. Now a Sps have a prob. We make the smallest Damage from the nukers. So please stop crying about NERF IT. What do yu want to change on a SPS?
We use BSSA you use SSA. my shots are more expensiv then yours. and we need 15 Soulore ( a around 540 Adena) every 20 minutes for Mana Regen. Yes, we dont have [censored] BTM.
PLEASE STOP CRYING FROM OVERPOWERED SPS.
We are realy not Overpowered. If yaou cant play your class on PVP / PVE Reroll.
Actually Sorcerer must cry more than SpSs.You got your over hit spell (i forgot to mention that) which evens out the dmg.
Oh and Ellie Prominence>Hydroblast :p
B2M lvl 1 aint any better (its actually worse) than your MP skill.Since our low cast speed we get 21 MP for 131 HP.When you need 69 MP per nuke and 3 nukes per mob.....(im 74-ppl will say its good on lower lvls but 70+ grind is getting insane).
Nukers got a few weak points.Most skills dont land on unflagged targets for 1.For 2 its their speed-lowest speed from all chars.3 is for low HP/CP and 4 is for low pdef.
The 5 is for MP consumption<the REALLY lame part.
If your worried about overpowered classes because tanks have a problem getting a party, the problem isn't nukers because the problem is with tanks.
Archers are way more over powered than nukers. Expensive? Possible. But so are nukers if you really think about it.
I don't know any party that really needs a tank unless it is a raid party or some insane party that requires tons of hating. Basically for normal efficient leveling you don't need a tank. Crappy? I know! Maybe tanks should get something to encourage more party play, like a party buff of protection or something.
No damage dealer in game "needs" a tank.
Nukers have been nerfed TONS! So I don't wanna hear this BS anymore when there are drac bows with focus, necros (that thing...whatever you wanna call it is not a mage, lol), hero fear, oh my, the list goes on and on.
spell singer is not overpowered
they can kill fast i give you that
but you dont have to wait 10 mins for the mp bar bro
for any Spell singer that exist their are 10 SH :P
actully guys , your correct! was doing some maths this morning *im sad* and ur correct! Nukers are costly little buggers and actully level pretty slow. Im gunna try see if my mate will let me play his!
But thanx all, ty for proving me wrong. This has inlightend me
BSPS/Acumen was made for nukers so they could kill the new improved (an utterly ugly) mobs.
We got WIT and INT you got STR and DEX okay?And now MEN DOES mean something.
Oh and about acumen-focus on a sword is MUCH more usefull-not only you will crit more in PvP but you will hunt faster too.Acumen in PvE means you will just sit sooner.
Acumen in PvE means you will sit sooner if and only if you're a sorcerer or elemental summoner. For a healer, it means less mana wasted and more mana gained, for a necro and SH it's an instant ticket to extra MP.
And of course, acumen means more use out of a recharger, since you need to hunt so fast that you can actually deplete MP in order to make the most of having one (or two or more) recharges with you.
We got WIT and INT you got STR and DEX okay?And now MEN DOES mean something.
By nukers can also do CON to give themselves more hp/cp and allow them to carry more items. Fighter classes can not do MEN to give themselves more mdef.
Neb seems to get my point abotu the dyes. Adding WIT adds _ALOT_ more positives than negatives than either STR or Dex, or even dex and str do together. IMO nukers shouldn't be able to touch MEN, so they would have to choose between speed or damage, like the balance already was intended between the nukers..
Acumen has no downsides. End of Story. It adds 15% cast speed, that means 15% more damage in PvP, 15% faster heals and stacks with everything yay, who cares about PvE.. jeez. Focus doesn't add 15% more damage just by itself, it's dependant on many many other buffs to really shine. And of course, Acumen on 1 handers.. hello shields! RAWR!
Next argument we get now is... boohooo Draconic Bow Focus!! Shut up, the real problem lie elsewere. God I wish I could rebalance this game.. every chronicle it gets worse and worse, what drugs are NC Korea on?! I want some! Completely out of touch with uhm.. can we call it logic?
I had to just laugh at this post. Archers need tanks even less than nukers, and do obscene damage while having better defense. Its all about the buffs though. A few days ago, a sorcerer killed a party of archers, yesterday an archer killed an entire party. Its all about the absurdly unbalanced buffs (SAs and boss jewelry too) in this game.
they should just remove Bsps...that would solve the overpower issue....
and in interlude...tank are able to block magic with their shields... if you tell me that tanks won't be in almost every PvP party in interlude...then you tell lies.
Silver Rangers should be able to dodge magic spells....
just cause we have the highest Dex...just my opinion
1) Just like Spudnik said 99% of your time is PvE so YES i do care about it (but you are HE+drac so meh...)
2) Tanks die to nukers...read that again:tanks MUST die to nukers okay?
3) I speak about SpS/Sorc here!Necro+SH have very good way to regen MP.
4) SH/SpS/Sorc have a skill called clear mind.While you are standing still you recieve MP as if you are sitting<while casting a spell also btw.So even if you cast slower you will get more regen since you dont walk while doing it.
4) Focus stacks with every other buff ive seen.(well not WW) Focus AND haste are alot ABOVE acumen trust me on that.
5) Drac bow with focus?The new top A grade will also have focus SA<-very good for an archer right?
6) Overpowered archers=crit damage.An archer can have 9x crits!There should be cap on that (like x4)
7) If they change dyes and SAs for a nuker they need to change the mobs also.Current mobs can kill a nuker very easy without em (SH and Necro got vamp claw (dark vortex too) that regens HP so vamp claw>aura flare atm)
8) Archers need buffs from 3 different classes?Sure nukers also>BD+EE/OL (who got CoV?) and they NEED SE.
These things have been stated over and over by other ppl and now we go again.Stay off the nukers-we are being nerfed every Chr and curently a Sorc has NO SKILLS to play the game with.
I dont like talking to walls but hey-youre an archer after all.
silly thread. Just another one of those "I want lotsa pdef, lotsa hp, be able to block everything and be able to kill everything" threads. Nukers are relatively balanced imo. Archers and the way buffs stack are the problem. High level archers should not be able to 1-2 shot people of equal level. End of story.
First of all, Focus SA doesn't stack at all, it's added on top of your current critical. What I meant about stacking is that buffs and such affect the stat, like critical damage buffs. Acumen isn't overpowered in itself, if you couldn't do +WIT and have insane cast speed robes and no BSPS it would be alot different.
Second, i'm not denying that archers are overpowered, WHEN they have 3 buffers behind them! Nukers on the other hand don't need much at all to kill just about anyone.
Why not care about PvE? Because PvE is a means to an end, the end game. PVP. THAT is what you should be talking about. You only PvE to obtain a certain goal, be that level, quest or whatever. It's a PVP game, so it should be balanced as such. Nukers have no real problems with XP, if you die, you messed up, it happens.
I couldn't care less what a dagger can do at level 52, but at 78 it's game over for anyone that shows his back to one. Seen DVP videos? 9k crits on backstab on his TH, often. Not seen 78 PW and AW, but they do as much if not more on backstab because of Focus Death. Only difference is they don't need any buffs at all to one-shot people..
Want a mage with tons of HP and Pdef.. roll a necro, they still rock, it's just that 90% of the necros out there suck at playing one, thank god!
recenlty a lvl 78 mysticmuse attacked me while I xped with some friends. She had Emp WM COV and siren +con +mystic. We talked after the fight. I was on my Necro, now we were told by a party in the room before they were coming so our party's buffer gave me Elemental prot, Resist aqua, the Cardinal gave me Divine prot, and the bd danced a 4the dance of aqua guard. (other dances were con, mystic, siren), plus already had emp wm
on my level 76 soultaker the battle that insued went someeething like this:
You can feel the effect of Ice vortex
... hit you for 450 dmg
Use Death Spike
you hit for 1500 damage.
I guess you can tell who won. The thing is at no time was anyone in the party over buffed, the 4 dances plus my extra buffs wasn;t enough to over buff me in anyway. In our ally we field approx 4-6 archer parties to 1-2 mage parties, If mages are so overpowered why isn;t thier more at end game?
At end game with the extra buff slots even archers can have defensive buffs. If you an elemental nuker (sorc,sh,sps) the a heirophant will drop your dmg by 50% alone, if your a dark nuker then and EE can do the same with just another 2 buffs.
Please tell me what buffs I can give myself to vut the damage dealt to a robe user from an archer by approx 50%. Alos it must only take 2 buff slots to do so.
Neb seems to get my point abotu the dyes. Adding WIT adds _ALOT_ more positives than negatives than either STR or Dex, or even dex and str do together. IMO nukers shouldn't be able to touch MEN, so they would have to choose between speed or damage, like the balance already was intended between the nukers..
Acumen has no downsides. End of Story. It adds 15% cast speed, that means 15% more damage in PvP, 15% faster heals and stacks with everything yay, who cares about PvE.. jeez. Focus doesn't add 15% more damage just by itself, it's dependant on many many other buffs to really shine. And of course, Acumen on 1 handers.. hello shields! RAWR!
Next argument we get now is... boohooo Draconic Bow Focus!! Shut up, the real problem lie elsewere. God I wish I could rebalance this game.. every chronicle it gets worse and worse, what drugs are NC Korea on?! I want some! Completely out of touch with uhm.. can we call it logic?
This entire post is a load of [censored].
Before you can even try justifying a lock on men, you need to show that all mages start with the same mentality score so that they can have the same chance to do the same damage or have the same casting speed. But we don't have this. If we call int and wit the essential mage stats because men does essentially nothing positive and is a deadweight stat, we can compare the total number of stat points assigned to the two important mage stats and see what the implications will be. Spellhowlers have 63, sorcerors and necros have 61, and spellsingers have 60. What this means is that spellhowlers can now have both the highest wit and highest int because they have 2 more total stat points in wit and int than humans and 3 more than light elves. A spellhowler will always be able to outpace the casting speed and magic damage of their light elven breathren simply because they use tattoos to move a little bit of int over to wit without sacrificing much but gaining quite a bit, while a spellsinger sacrifices either a lot of casting speed to gain a little bit more magic damage, or further tanks their magic damage to gain some more casting speed. but at an overly high cost. The reason mages need to be able to use their dyes as they do, and the reason NC chose the system they did, is because m attack is square rooted, so the mage needs to increase their m attack in an increasing manner to increase their damage linearly. A linear increase in m attack alone does not result in a linear increase to magic damage. Thus because NC knew they unevenly locked away an excessive amount of stat points in men, they had to compensate by allowing mages to themselves move the inefficient stat allocation into a more efficient build. Yes spellhowlers will still come out on top because they had less mentalitity to begin with, but they won't come out as on top as they would if no mage could dip into the useless stat called mentality.
Sure physical related classes complain they must sacrifice one important stat to change another important stat, but this is because physical fighters deal with a completely different story. They have no dead weight stat, so for them each one seems incredibly important. But this is actually a good thing, that means there is no inefficient initial stat allocations, no class has more important stats than the other classes. This also allows for many more unique and well thought out builds, with peeople who prefer higher crit rates and more hp to damage being able to do just that, or someone who prefers more damage and crits using a hgiher damage output to render their pool useless is free to do so. As a physical class under the current system, if you like the stat allocations of another class, you are free to change your stats to match theirs. Why should the mage classes be unable to do this as well?
Haste has no downsides, it increases the number of hits over time, and unlike acumen, it actually increases a physical classes damage over time by increasing the number of hits over time. Without supplying the mage with more mp over time or reducing their mp cost expenditures, increasing their casting speed is not going to increase the number of spells they cast over time as this number is limited exclusively by the amount of mp they can regenerate and the mp costs of their spells.
From the last I heard, focus by itself already helps. If you are missing less you are doing more damage. This is intuitively obvious. Give me any buff that effects physical attack (except for those which heal the character upon a successful melee hit), and I can show you how hitting more and missing less means doing more damage with the buff you have. Get might, each attack you are doing now which would have been a miss more is also an attack which is hitting for more now than before. A 500 damage score which would have been a 0 on a miss seems like a pretty ****ed good exhange to me.
The only classes who are really prohibited from using shields are warlords, bladedancers, archers, destroyers(sort of) and monks. There is nothing preventing a dagger from using a shield, and nothing preventing a gladiator from using one as well, they have plenty of skills that don't require dual swords. But then even the classes which can't use shields, except for bladedancers, generally tend to do very well in pvp anyway, so this isn't an issue at all.
You want to know what lack of logic was? Giving liriens such powerful windstrikes, making mortal blow and then nerfing daggers to hell and back in C3 because of it and other problems, nerfing sleep in pve, giving mobs attacks that can one hit equal level characters, adding gameguard, etc., etc., etc.
ppl ppl ppl u r all wayy out of subject...
want to make tanks neccecity in parties? make mobs stronger.. more hp/pdef/mdef its the only way..
the other day i was xping in IT without a tank ffs.. i just couldnt find one.. r they becoming extinct?
want to stop ppl from soloing with a buff pet? change hunting grounds like vos,woa,fp etc and leave only a few places with 2-4 hit mobs on the map, give ppl something to fight for (the best xp places)
its the definition of mmporg guys.. we r supposed to play together and no class is useless and for sure tanks shouldn't be usefull only in dungeons (if then)
****..being an archer and not always being in a stacked group or when it's 2-3 groups vs 2-3 groups, i love haveing a tank on my side, hate all the way, and arrest...that's awesome for PvE and PvP, and ****, with UD...you can't really take one down that fast, so..tehy still are meat shields, but way way way more fun to have in PvP...
and with tanks being able to block magic attacks with their shields in interlude, people will be asking for them to be nerfed LOL....
nukers arn't overpowered..it's the Bsps that are...if it was just sps and ss...everything would seem the same
If you an elemental nuker (sorc,sh,sps) the a heirophant will drop your dmg by 50% alone, if your a dark nuker then and EE can do the same with just another 2 buffs.
actuly
Elemental Protection =Resistance to Fire attribute +30%, Resistance to Wind, Water, Earth attributes +20%
so yea they even screwed sorcs over by that
Nukers and Archers both are overpowered, and both suck.
Boost Melees - if I can get within Melee range of a Nuker or Archer, I should be able to 2 shot them, just like they 2 shot me from range. Just being Ranged is a big enough advantage.
"NCSoft! I want you to improve the stats and capabilities of the toons I play so I can't lose in PvP! Not the 'Class' of the toons I play---just my personal toons. Thank you."
that about sum things up?
And more to the point of OP, as a lowbie, nukers are not overpowered. Archers are overpowered. I am actually an archer irl--I've competed in tournaments. There is no way a bow should be able to hit HARDER at father distances---nor should it be able to hit as often! Accuracy should fall dramatically as a function of distance--as should power/energy (last I checked nasty 'ol gravity and friction were forces that did bad things to an arrow).
I'll quit arguing for nerfing bows/arrows when someone in this game can explain to me how an archer at the equivalent of 200 yards hits 95 out of 100 shots and a sword user--with masteries--misses 2 of 5 swings on a stunned mob at 3 feet!
Not that I have anything against archers! Some of the nicest people I know are archers :)
hmmm blah blah
i am a caster a mage but i not got the same power as my BD
i can run in a cata with my SE for days with only 2 people as mage i cant even kill a single target so in the end yes mages seams powerfull but they are only master to the x1 mobs or unbuffed people question is are you buffed?
Any melee can go on forever with heals on 4xHP mobs.
Nukers need both mana and 1 very special condition:mobs MUST die BEFORE they reach the nuker (its not so tough to a necr/sh with vamp claw but still...).And since 4xHP mobs got 20k HP....well you can figure it out.
The "Nukers are Overpowered" were too lost in their own sea of tears to examine such things as internal class balance and actual gameplay dynamics. They have screamed their demands and will now hold their breath and cover their ears until they get their way.
As a Sorc, I have personally felt the power of that sizeable tantrum.
Any melee can go on forever with heals on 4xHP mobs.
Nukers need both mana and 1 very special condition:mobs MUST die BEFORE they reach the nuker (its not so tough to a necr/sh with vamp claw but still...).And since 4xHP mobs got 20k HP....well you can figure it out.
Interesting you say that. As it's true.
My sub is Destroyer. I was grinding in Cruma on the weekend when I attracted 6 mobs at once. I was so amazed that not only could I get beaten on my 6 mobs but that I was never in any real danger of dying, that I started laughing out loud.
As a mage that is unheard of!
I don't think mages are overpowered. I do think that NC is very bad on the details and needs to rethink many classes in the game. Mages do what they do very well: large swaths of long distance damage. Same with archers. They need to pay attention to the healing/buffing classes amongst others.
Any melee can go on forever with heals on 4xHP mobs.
Nukers need both mana and 1 very special condition:mobs MUST die BEFORE they reach the nuker (its not so tough to a necr/sh with vamp claw but still...).And since 4xHP mobs got 20k HP....well you can figure it out.
Interesting you say that. As it's true.
My sub is Destroyer. I was grinding in Cruma on the weekend when I attracted 6 mobs at once. I was so amazed that not only could I get beaten on my 6 mobs but that I was never in any real danger of dying, that I started laughing out loud.
When I was leveling my BD (with my SE OOP) in the upper part of EV, I'd do this intentionally all the time. Rarely was I in danger of dying. I'd get a group of mobs on me (4, 5, 6, whatever) and I'd Hex or Powerbreak any other nearby mobs; usually to keep some other jerk from getting them. ;)
and the epics favor the archers more then the nurkers
As do clan buffs. clan +patk skill is clan lvl 6, and works on basically the whole clan. Clan +matk skill is clan lvl 8 and only works on the leaders of the guard units, the leaders of the knight units, the clan leader and heroes. What the heck is up with that? Everybody in the clan gets +patk, but only the leaders and heroes get +matk?
Same by the way for max hp/mp and hp/mp regeneration. Only the leaders and heroes get to enjoy MP clan skills.
As do clan buffs. clan +patk skill is clan lvl 6, and works on basically the whole clan. Clan +matk skill is clan lvl 8 and only works on the leaders of the guard units, the leaders of the knight units, the clan leader and heroes. What the heck is up with that? Everybody in the clan gets +patk, but only the leaders and heroes get +matk?
Same by the way for max hp/mp and hp/mp regeneration. Only the leaders and heroes get to enjoy MP clan skills.
I guess you forgot that post that I made about 6 months ago.
I brought this up then, I hate the whole design for the clan buff system. it's ******ed, and it only benefits a few people.
They need to rework the clan buff system. and have it by class not by what rank you are.
and the epics favor the archers more then the nurkers
As do clan buffs. clan +patk skill is clan lvl 6, and works on basically the whole clan. Clan +matk skill is clan lvl 8 and only works on the leaders of the guard units, the leaders of the knight units, the clan leader and heroes. What the heck is up with that? Everybody in the clan gets +patk, but only the leaders and heroes get +matk?
Same by the way for max hp/mp and hp/mp regeneration. Only the leaders and heroes get to enjoy MP clan skills.
My sub is Destroyer. I was grinding in Cruma on the weekend when I attracted 6 mobs at once. I was so amazed that not only could I get beaten on my 6 mobs but that I was never in any real danger of dying, that I started laughing out loud.
As a mage that is unheard of!
destro isnt melee its a tank with 50x the damage output
my necro could pull up to 12 mobs and make it out alive without a single heal
ive agroed 6 red mobs at 200 hp and made it out alive without a single pot or heal
My sub is Destroyer. I was grinding in Cruma on the weekend when I attracted 6 mobs at once. I was so amazed that not only could I get beaten on my 6 mobs but that I was never in any real danger of dying, that I started laughing out loud.
As a mage that is unheard of!
destro isnt melee its a tank with 50x the damage output
my necro could pull up to 12 mobs and make it out alive without a single heal
ive agroed 6 red mobs at 200 hp and made it out alive without a single pot or heal
Yes, but don't you have a summons that takes part of that damage? I think I have just over 3000 hitpoints as as Stormscreamer. Most mages would not be able to do that.
Yes, but don't you have a summons that takes part of that damage? I think I have just over 3000 hitpoints as as Stormscreamer. Most mages would not be able to do that.
edit; HEY! Necros are overpowered!
dont use summons while xpping
but yeah you got me on the overpowered part, necro is prolly the most survivable class in game even without TP
just saying you cant really compare destro to other melee classes when talking about fast lvling/pvp skill/survivability
Most of your post is just stating the obvious.. with buffs you do more damage.. wow, made that observation on your own did ya? :p
About the tatoos, it's a fact that the tatoos that mages can add are superior to what fighters can do with their stats. I know exactly how INT and WIT works. By default the mages are "balanced" so that the fastest caster has less power, and vice versa. By making the tatoos like they did, every nuker can tune their damage to max with minimal penalty. I don't need to justify the "lock" on MEN, just look at how the standard values are.
In comparison fighters don't gain half as much DPS by adding equal tatoos for str and dex. With STR perhaps you can get 10-15% more damage, dex adds 4-5% attack speed and very minor increase to other stats. Check out what only a +4/5 WIT does to a mage.. 20-25% more cast speed, then add INT, all that with no major negatives. Mage with such a setup (and every smart mage has it) gains tremendous power..
Why compare Haste to Acumen? They increase speed about the same for each, 33% and 30%. And AGAIN we talk about PvE! It doesn't matter! It might be true for SPS and Sorc that acumen doesn't increase MP regen, but it definitely helps SH and Necro, they can use B2M more often. Oh and about buffs.. thank you NC soft for making berserk an mdef debuff, it's like Empower V2.0
The "Nukers are Overpowered" were too lost in their own sea of tears to examine such things as internal class balance and actual gameplay dynamics. They have screamed their demands and will now hold their breath and cover their ears until they get their way.
As a Sorc, I have personally felt the power of that sizeable tantrum.
Signed and I agree with Sovrath on the needed attention to those classes that are in need of serious relivening.
Mulch
is not very true
MEN have a real effect if you decress it like
recharge on MP's a second, magic resistance and so on so dont say MEN dont have a negitive effect when people tune or change it
Indeed there should be a balanced way inside the nuking classes. I agree on that point also.
But I truly think some melee and healing/buffing classes could benefit from a more faire approach internally as well. Ever since C3 I think things have started to turn wrong because of changes made without thinking of the repercussions or with not enough eye for the Big picture of the game.
I think the only class set that is decently internally balanced is summoners... and maybe daggers, but I don't know too much about that. Archers also have some issues, but they're all so powerful that they don't have to care if they're a bit weaker.
I still think they should just build on the aura tree for sorcerers - no surrender, but more importantly, no resist. That would give them a unique edge.
MEN have a real effect if you decress it like
recharge on MP's a second, ...
Somewhat less than 10% for a SH with -9 MEN; less then that for other mages. That's even less than the difference between standing still and walking around - and when do you notice that?
..., magic resistance ...
About -1% MDef per point of MEN, not counting the flat bonus from Anti Magic. For comparison, Magic Barrier 1 (a level 44 Prophet skill) increases it by 23%. Even the puny Clan Magic Protection 1 (+6%) is almost enough to completly counter this effects. Compare:
wanna nerf m. atk of mages?
increase their p.def and speed
dont wanna nerf m.atk?
nerf p.def and cast. speed
keep a balance
mages are overpowered according to their p.def .
want more p.def? raise the m.def on fightersm also
in another post, they write that mages are defenceless. they re not.
fighters are defenceless on magic spells. REALLY low m.def on ALL fighters, including dark elves that get resist magic as a passive
2 weeks ago i got hit for 3k damage from an equal lvl mage
i had no resists they had emp, zerk and posibly dances
the funny thing is that wasnt a crit
i have 15k cp and hp with btb 6 hero weapon and pof and that dude could kill me in 5 hits if i didnt have any resists
i hit him for an average of 250 damage or 40-300 useing skills
no point to my post btw so id also like to note ive been hit for over 6k by a destroyer
the maximum ive been hit for by an archer is 4k (not fully buffed) but archers are a whole different kettle of fish since i cant catch them and even if i could 40-95% of my hits would miss anyway
So nameless you want to compare a damage dealer BUFFED! to a...spoiler?...okay-whatever makes you happy.
Dwarves are overpowered!The have skills no other classes have!
I have none buffed 1112 matk.I hit a lvl 61 archer for 600 dmg without bsps.With bsps i have 4448 matk and i hit for 1200 dmg.If i want to hit for 2400 dmg i need to have 17792 matk.(with bsps+dance of mystic+emp+zerkv i got 2600x4 with bsps=10400 matk).That nuker was lvl 77 to make such a nice dmg and the skill was a vortex because normal spell power=108 vortex=140.matk is square rooted/magic power isnt.
Surrender to element and vortex does that :p They don't even need to crit.. they always do good damage.
Best buff against an Archer is Advanced block and Bless shield. Ty, my dmg just got cut in half, with possibility of doing a fabulous 1dmg critical! Don't turn your back on them though :3
Add Greater shield, earth and CoV.. oh and you can drop Zerk too. About 2k pdef on a robe O_O;;
So nameless you want to compare a damage dealer BUFFED! to a...spoiler?...okay-whatever makes you happy.
Dwarves are overpowered!The have skills no other classes have!
I have none buffed 1112 matk.I hit a lvl 61 archer for 600 dmg without bsps.With bsps i have 4448 matk and i hit for 1200 dmg.If i want to hit for 2400 dmg i need to have 17792 matk.(with bsps+dance of mystic+emp+zerkv i got 2600x4 with bsps=10400 matk).That nuker was lvl 77 to make such a nice dmg and the skill was a vortex because normal spell power=108 vortex=140.matk is square rooted/magic power isnt.
for starters dwarves have the highest base men of all melee classes without mdef mastery thus the highest mdef
my jewlery isnt the best but you would think some +3 and 4 S grade jewles would do something
what lvl exactly are you?
74 20% till 75 and atlast subbing.
I have a pretty clear idea what a lvl 78 nuker can do since my roommate is a SS.
And when you add all those buffs (1 more buffer for a nuker which is now the 5th-who said archers need more support again?)you still get 1 shot critted!Archers are too powerfull to stay like this.(shield def is 90 degrees only anyway).
You are suprised i got so little matk nameless?
dorfs are one of the highest mdef classes in game if they want to
and yes nukers and archers are both bad and if both are fully buffed i think nukers are worse since you always talk about those ******ently high archer crits you could also talk about the nuker ones fullbuffed nukers can crit quite alot
i get like nearly 2k per hit from highlvl shs whith parry up cov normal mdef and resist element and close to 8k on crits
i yet have to see that kind of archer dmg
but id agree on both nukers and archers are overpowerd
dorfs are one of the highest mdef classes in game if they want to
and yes nukers and archers are both bad and if both are fully buffed i think nukers are worse since you always talk about those ******ently high archer crits you could also talk about the nuker ones fullbuffed nukers can crit quite alot
i get like nearly 2k per hit from highlvl shs whith parry up cov normal mdef and resist element and close to 8k on crits
i yet have to see that kind of archer dmg
but id agree on both nukers and archers are overpowerd
You've obviously never met with a CoV/full epics archer party.
You've obviously never met with a CoV/full epics archer party.
i assume stacked archers are pretty bad but tbh ive never seen one
once at a siege my lvl 68ish necro took a beating from 3 or 4 drac archers and i was able to pot spam away most of the damage but i think as soon as the zombie ran out of hp so did i ><
You've obviously never met with a CoV/full epics archer party.
i assume stacked archers are pretty bad but tbh ive never seen one
once at a siege my lvl 68ish necro took a beating from 3 or 4 drac archers and i was able to pot spam away most of the damage but i think as soon as the zombie ran out of hp so did i ><
You've obviously never met with a CoV/full epics archer party.
i assume stacked archers are pretty bad but tbh ive never seen one
once at a siege my lvl 68ish necro took a beating from 3 or 4 drac archers and i was able to pot spam away most of the damage but i think as soon as the zombie ran out of hp so did i ><
I crit mages in DC for 6k damage at sieges.
i got a replay of that incident and looking back at it the only reason i died was because someone erased my summon
guess i coulda just had a lucky run of avoiding crits
I agree, people [censored]=>"whining" about archers are ppl who don't have a clue and/or never seen pvp out of a siege where archer parties are made with bd sws cat queen and cov support, valor, maybe hero zerk too...
Sadly that's how the massive majority plays, sometimes not even knowing how to buff their mage, or using aura flare when it comes to pvp and wondering why they're so gimp.
This said a nuker with boss jewels, wild magic sa's and buffs crits 1 on 4 and for at least twice the damage of the archer.
So common guys give us a break, chronicles of getting 100k xp at antharas where mages used to get 6M xp got a tiny bit balanced and made all those poor mages reroll hawkeyes lol.
Pve wise oh common, i do 40-46 in less than one hour on an SH... and at least (with limited support) twice the xp an archer gets per hour at 76+, not mentionning archer's can barely solo in a few spots after 76
out of curiosity, what %age of the population is running around with full boss jewels on anyway? i sincerely doubt the "massive majority" of archer groups are running around with all the things you've listed.
hmm i wonder where is my RB jewels sinds anyone walks around with it right ?
guess i most be a losser sinds i not even got fully A jewels
a yeah a mage with level 78 buffs wrack havoc yes also with a Arcana mace +16 hell even a ES with that sort stuff wrack havoc but not very realistic if you ask me
What I was trying to say is that the constant back and forth of 'whaa archers are more overpowered than us nukers' and 'whaaa nukers are more overpowered than us archers' is getting old and tiresome.
The main disbalance is not between these two (that's pretty situational) but between melee and range - oh, and support vs. boxes. But let's not open that icky can of worms.
What I was trying to say is that the constant back and forth of 'whaa archers are more overpowered than us nukers' and 'whaaa nukers are more overpowered than us archers' is getting old and tiresome.
The main disbalance is not between these two (that's pretty situational) but between melee and range - oh, and support vs. boxes. But let's not open that icky can of worms.
Let's stay on topic and sum it up briefly, it s commonly known that :
1 a mage xp's at least 2 times faster than an archer with similar amount of support.
2 mages get the xp at raids
3 in 1 v 1 a mage will eat an archer of similar level in 95% of fights.
Anyways, archers will be gimped out in small scale pvp after interlude patch.
The question of who should be used as a frame of comparison to determine nukers' 'overpowered' is well on topic. I say it shouldn't be archers but the collective rest of the classes - and then, suddenly, the answer is unarguably 'yes, they are'.
each class has it's job maline, they allready made it fun with c5 healer/buffer/bd/sws/tank added pvp skills. Now a tank owns in small/medium scale pvp as a support class for daggers for example.
So unless you re talking about dwarves, gladiators and warlords, i m not sure I know what you mean. Bah even summoners are very strong in 1 v 1's from low level to 60's and then at end game levels.
LOL
I have a nuker, my wife has an archer. She leaves me in the dust.
And while I am sure that wherever "YOU" are from, Boss Jewels and noblesse buffs are as common as players named ffgjhijjg, that's not true where I come from.
And I DEFINITELY want to visit a planet where my sorc can crit 1 out of 4 shots. I'll take the trip to crit 1 out of 40!
LOL
I have a nuker, my wife has an archer. She leaves me in the dust.
And while I am sure that wherever "YOU" are from, Boss Jewels and noblesse buffs are as common as players named ffgjhijjg, that's not true where I come from.
And I DEFINITELY want to visit a planet where my sorc can crit 1 out of 4 shots. I'll take the trip to crit 1 out of 40!
My wife on the other hand, is a crit machine.
Maybe it's time to go back to reading comprehension classes... You're talking about some unbuffed arena pvp at low level with your wife and it is not what anyone cares about.
And noblesse buff is not affecting pvp stats where i come from...
getting back on the topic Maline, some classes are for pvp others are'nt, the wrong thing is how the pve counterpart is made : killing a mob takes like 30 seconds for a dwarf a tank or a gladi, when it's a one shot to a mage, a 3 shot to an archer, with daggers somewhere in the middle...
The better pvp class, the worst pve efficient it should be, but i guess that's for Lineage 3.
As long as open PvP is available in this game, balance must be achieved for all. As soon as you get a 'trade money for PvP rejection' skill for dwarves (or for that matter warlords), and as soon as they remove the grind, balancing everything for archers, nukers and support with full boss jewellery in end game is fine.
It's still hard to blame balance when you choosen to play a dwarf, in NC description i remember it said something about pretty poor fighting skills, same for tanks and all support. Can't cry about not killing ppl with your EE or bounty hunter lol, can you? Sometimes i have the feeling this game has a sadomasochistic aspect lol.
The only issue i see is with gladi's/warlords, maybe summoners who may feel pretty useless in this game. Tyrants are stong as hell in c5, destroyers are fine.
But the worst is to come, wait for interlude and the nerf of crit damage and then good look grinding a dwarf, or hell even any mellee...
It's still hard to blame balance when you choosen to play a dwarf, in NC description i remember it said something about pretty poor fighting skills, same for tanks and all support. Can't cry about not killing ppl with your EE, can you?
from dorf description
Due to their superior physical strength, they make excellent tanks when included in a party.
Pve wise oh common, i do 40-46 in less than one hour on an SH... and at least (with limited support) twice the xp an archer gets per hour at 76+, not mentionning archer's can barely solo in a few spots after 76
not many places any melee class can lvl after 76 but 2 hitting fod vamps seems to be the weapon of choice for archers
and you are hardly the person to be telling anyone about grinding speed of any class considering the way your alliance gets its xp
Due to their superior physical strength, they make excellent tanks when included in a party.
Hey, I actually managed to get and hold the aggro of a raid boss once, with two SKs and a lot of nukers and archers in the party, too - as a Warsmith. I guess the raid bosses don't really like to get stunned. :)
I'm not worried about my own class - not everyone can see no farther than that. There are serious balance issues in the game, one of them being that heals are over- and buffs are over-powered (especially now with CPP, neccessary as they are with current damage outputs).
But then, no balance can be brought into PvP without severely increasing the effect of all defensive buffs (double, maybe even triple) and removing CPPspam.
It's still hard to blame balance when you choosen to play a dwarf, in NC description i remember it said something about pretty poor fighting skills, same for tanks and all support. Can't cry about not killing ppl with your EE, can you?
from dorf description
Due to their superior physical strength, they make excellent tanks when included in a party.
Pve wise oh common, i do 40-46 in less than one hour on an SH... and at least (with limited support) twice the xp an archer gets per hour at 76+, not mentionning archer's can barely solo in a few spots after 76
not many places any melee class can lvl after 76 but 2 hitting fod vamps seems to be the weapon of choice for archers
and you are hardly the person to be telling anyone about grinding speed of any class considering the way your alliance gets its xp
huh if you ever played an archer you'd know it s only efficient to solo xp on mobs who go down before they reach you.
Oh really, I looked up in description and found this:
"Overall, Dwarves do not have any distinguishing features other than superior physical strength."
and this:
"Play Style: Unlike other Fighter classes, the playstyle of a Dwarven Fighter does not entirely involve combat. The main ability of Dwarven Fighters is to obtain items"
and this aswell : "disliked by all other races for their profiteering nature."
I think something's wrong when people will commonly complain about stacked archer, mage or dagger groups being overpowered and nobody ever complains about stacked groups of destroyers, tyrants, gladiators, warlords, etc.
You've obviously never met with a CoV/full epics archer party.
i assume stacked archers are pretty bad but tbh ive never seen one
once at a siege my lvl 68ish necro took a beating from 3 or 4 drac archers and i was able to pot spam away most of the damage but i think as soon as the zombie ran out of hp so did i ><
SpS and sorcs have been nerfed considerably - so far that they're now pretty much doubtlessly inferior to necro and SH, but the question is, whether sorcs and SpS should be pushed back up, or SHs and necros be brought down a notch.
Is it right that two of the best PvE classes are also two of the best PvP classes?
A "top PvP class" should be as defunct at PvE as the warlord, BH, WS, TK etc. are at PvP - and ultimately, the goal should be that all can do both.
LOL
I have a nuker, my wife has an archer. She leaves me in the dust.
And while I am sure that wherever "YOU" are from, Boss Jewels and noblesse buffs are as common as players named ffgjhijjg, that's not true where I come from.
And I DEFINITELY want to visit a planet where my sorc can crit 1 out of 4 shots. I'll take the trip to crit 1 out of 40!
My wife on the other hand, is a crit machine.
Maybe it's time to go back to reading comprehension classes... You're talking about some unbuffed arena pvp at low level with your wife and it is not what anyone cares about.
Hmmm..Strange but I don't see Pam talking about Arena pvp...And you're even as blunt to assume he's low level on top of it ...LOL...Maybe you don't know Pam, but I do and he was refering to your quote that nukers should be one shotting all things and crit like crazy.
Sorry to say, but we are not critting machines all the time (specially not sorcerers). Yes we do crit occasionally, but not as insane as an archer does on regular basis, and that's if we are lucky enough to have Wild Magick buff. However IF we are lucky to crit twice in a row it's quite devestating.
This said, however, nukers are not as overpowered as the 'whine' goes. It's been an old topic for over two years now and the song is seriously getting boring. As Some have tried to state here several times, you're not getting anywhere with the 'my class is more nerfed then yours' type of discussions. The game was unbalanced due to individual touching to certain classes and leaving others as they were. Result now is that some classes have become stagnated while others have moved either forward or backwards. If things want to be balanced then all classes should be looked at simultaniously and how one change might or will affect the rest. That is also what MalineII has been trying to bring forward.
There are things both melee and ranged need to be tweeked upon. But at the current state I doubt it will ever get back on track, we've only seen it move off track since C2.
Now there is a topic on these boards started by Demon_Knight which in my opinion is very usefull and constructive, as it is one that gives the opportunity to the players to state their view on their char (or chars for some) in a constructive way (rather then always the whine threads) and what they personally think might be amiss or needs to stay untouched. It has shown (well to me at least) that there is a variety of things that pop up which are similar to others but viewed and used differently by each and everyone of us.
"If"? How much (and how hard) does an archer crit without epics, without stacked buffs, etc?
You can't assume an archer has a SwS, BD, DC, WK and epics and then say 'if we don't have buffs, we suck...'. With lower amounts of buffs, nukers are always more dangerous than archers. The more buffs you get, the more the power tilts to the archer, but it never fully topples over due to the restrictions on defensive buffs against nukers (you can't have stacked archer attack buffs and stacked nuker defense buffs - you can have nuker attack buffs and a pretty much full set of defensive buffs).
PS: Not sure if Pam has levelled, but IIRC he's not third class?
This discussion is hellah funny. I can't really speak on behalf of the other Nuker classes since I've never actually played any others to high level but I can comment on Sorcerer.
Sorcerers lost all purpose when our single target SLEEP got nerfed, AOE SLEEP got nerfed (sleep cloud), Cancel got severely nerfed and now our spells are getting shield blocked? I mean WTH is going on?
Count it. Thats 4 nerfs not to mention if you count nerfs due to other classes getting buffs against magic damage or higher grades of jewelry that were introduced, namely S grade.
Sorcerers are also the slowest running in the game. THE SLOWEST. WTH is up with this? We get nerfed to hell and then we can't outrun anything. Not even the slowest mobs that populate Aden!
At least all archers run fast! Hell Sorcerers ar a ranged class and we move like snails. Since we are a ranged class shouldn't we at least be able to outrun the **** mob? Why do Archers run fast at all? I don't get it? Why must Sorcers run slow at all? I mean WTH?! Hell, if a Sorcerer starts running with a good lead against an aggro mob, he/she will be as good as dead if he/she runs out of mana. BUT the archers all they have to do is run away! Why do they have the ranged power AND are able to run away so easily? This in itself is stupidly designed and idiotic on the part of the developers who made it that way.
You can say what you like about Nukers but, in the specific case of Sorcerers, WE are being nerfed to hell and NCSOFT is once again screwing themselves over with sweeping, BLIND, changes.
Actually - no, you're not the slowest runners. You can afford to take both zerk and DC robes... and you have the buff space for song of wind thanks to the lower amount of songs/dances needed for nukers.
soccerers are the crapest mage class exist i give you that much yeah i think they need some serios AOW spells to puch them back up but hey i play a SPS they not the best ether i just learn to deal with it
but i think when it comes to SH they are super to any other mage in this game not only can the silent mages a mage thats silent is a death one but they got the best mana control and overhit and damage a second spells
next time when you talk about mages as whole leave the low mages out of it sinds soccerers,SPS are the nothing compare to SH mage it's like compareing a Dwarf with a Warlord
"If"? How much (and how hard) does an archer crit without epics, without stacked buffs, etc?
You can't assume an archer has a SwS, BD, DC, WK and epics and then say 'if we don't have buffs, we suck...'. With lower amounts of buffs, nukers are always more dangerous than archers. The more buffs you get, the more the power tilts to the archer, but it never fully topples over due to the restrictions on defensive buffs against nukers (you can't have stacked archer attack buffs and stacked nuker defense buffs - you can have nuker attack buffs and a pretty much full set of defensive buffs).
PS: Not sure if Pam has levelled, but IIRC he's not third class?
Well Maline,
Sorry upfront if I didn't understand your post correctly (had to read it thre times to be sure what you were aiming for) but I ain't camparing to an archer. I'm speaking of my class. I don't compare to something I don't play or know for a fact. I don't have epics nore the luxary to always be fuly buffed and a ganking squad with me. Besides I didn't state I sucked without WM, I merely stated I don't crit as crazy as some think.
About how hard an Archer would crit with epics I wouldn't know as I don't have archers in my alliance that have those. I do know they crit hard with stacked buffs and yes I know that archers NEED buffs to crit as crazy as some picture it here. However it's not as bad as you make it sound without buffs as they Can crit for hard without those as well (sorry but twice a crit of 900 to 1200 plus all that follows and the land of the SA is enough to floor me in no time. Not to mention the interruptions of spells they cause in which I haven't been able to deal any damage what so ever).
But my previous post was not ment to debate who's strongest in PvP...My post was merely bouncing back on the thought made by Face on how we always one shoot things and crit like crazy. Sorry but I hardly crit 1 out of 4 shots done (buffed or unbuffed). If I was able to crit 4 times in a 3 hour hunting party I had a very good hunt...Our archers crit at least that much per buff round. And the last time I was able to one shoot mobs they must have been light blue to green in lower regions then my lvl...I hardly fight those mobs these days. Even so, green mobs in VoS I still require two shots (and that's either on no buffs besides the herbs dropped + Bsps or with my SE friend when she's on).
Indeed Unbuffed Archer against unbuffed nuker CAN result in dead Archer (I've seen this happen often). However, I've seen as many nukers kiss the floor also. But chances we crit you is very low where as for the archer the chances are higher. But we still do serious damage, I"ll grand you that and this brings us to the core problem of archers (and many melee classess as well: the aspect of the MDef.
Still...Nukers stand few chance against a stun shot as opener and a double shot that follows that also can crit twice and then not even taking in consideration the SA of the bow...I don't need to ellaborate on the result that has. Our PDef isn't any better but then again, we are nukers...Not armor wearers. It's like that and yes we deal damage but we kiss the floor fast once we lost the ranged.
My husband has an archer and honestly...I'm more afraid of him then he is of me. What does concern me is to see him doing his hardest best to higher up his MDef with a full AG set unsealed and a very nice MDef stat and still getting damaged for 580-700 by magic spells (Pve and PvP) is just crazy and makes one wonder how well the sets work on classes.
Anyways, this discussion again goes on the profile of 'Why you say you suck when...." and isn't really constructive as pointing fingers to one another isn't going to solve the issues we all have in our own classes. Again, topics like Demon_Knight are more constructive and I've had some PM's on the boards ellaborating and thinking out common issues and how they could be resolved while not loosing track of the other classes without pointing fingers or edging on certain aspects.
Indeed Unbuffed Archer against unbuffed nuker CAN result in dead Archer (I've seen this happen often). However, I've seen as many nukers kiss the floor also
On the other hand, I've seen an Archmage taking out four A-grade archers at once (both parties buffed for PvP).
Yes, the players of the archers did suck at PvP. Badly. ;)
Indeed Unbuffed Archer against unbuffed nuker CAN result in dead Archer (I've seen this happen often). However, I've seen as many nukers kiss the floor also
On the other hand, I've seen an Archmage taking out four A-grade archers at once (both parties buffed for PvP).
Yes, the players of the archers did suck at PvP. Badly. ;)
Indeed all depends on how the chars are played and this situation doesn't surprise me.
Hence why I said that pointing fingers to one another isn't going to balance out the general problems we seem to face all of us in the part of the game taht is set by mathematical features and coded strings to give each char it's even chance. The 'How you play and know your char' is a direct result of how you stand in game.
PS: sorry th previous answer got that long LOL wasn't the intend :o
hmm yes gear plays a inportend part in PVP hell even a level 40 soccerer can kill a 75 dude if he dont wear any jewels
Which shows that the balancing of power towards lvl MDef isn't right. But even if you wear jewels sometimes it's not enough (which we saw on my husband's archer :s )
One of the hardest classes to lvl (and NO i talk without a boxed SE following you around)=sorcerer.
One of the easiest classes to lvl=necro.
Sorcerer is:nuker,ranged and has cancel.
Necro is:hybrid,range,anchor,silence,b2m,2xHP thanks to summon,gloom,low MP attack,vamp claw + dark vortex (both of which are REALLY good spells),curse death link and a few good summons.
Sorcerer was nerfed in:sleep/sleeping cloud/aura flare/slow/surrender to fire/cancel.Basicly almost all of or skills.
Necro wasnt nerfed at all.
And i just have to stand here and take all this trash about my class?I dont think so.
well i never understand the probleem with sleep cloud
you know the waking scroll is a direct wake up call
and no mage cant destroy whole groeps with only a sleep cloud their is more to it
1 the mage is of a much higher level
2 his gear is much better
3 or he is just better in PVP and keeps his head cool
Once again - your frame of comparison should not be the necro or archers, but, say, the TK.
And Ley, I was saying that the numbers of mage crit is obviously based on full buffs - just as anyone saying anything about archers. Archers don't crit all that often (although much more frequently than a nuker admittedly) without buffs either - and most importantly, archer crits without the relevant buffs don't really hurt.
Neither mages nor archers are a significant issue without buffs. With buffs, both go crazy - mages on cast speed and crits (Siren, WM, CoWa, +6WIT), archers on attack speed and crits.
There is also the matter of the internal class balance between nukers - first aura flare and later cancel was superior to anything Necro and SE had to go around by such a huge margin that sorcerer and SpS were the definitive superior class, then they were nerfed, but SHs/Necros left alone - now the whole page has basically flipped.
In the end, I think the first thing that needs to be done before any more nerfing happens is a close look at where the overpoweredness comes from.
IMO, neither archers nor nukers nor daggers need changes to their class at current in order to bring them 'into line' with other class types. Internal balancing is needed for the nuker classes definitely, I'm less sure about daggers and archers.
For global balance, PvP damage rates, consumables, enchantments etc. all need looking into before any class except buffers/buffs gets looked at again.
One of the hardest classes to lvl (and NO i talk without a boxed SE following you around)=sorcerer.
One of the easiest classes to lvl=necro.
Sorcerer is:nuker,ranged and has cancel.
Necro is:hybrid,range,anchor,silence,b2m,2xHP thanks to summon,gloom,low MP attack,vamp claw + dark vortex (both of which are REALLY good spells),curse death link and a few good summons.
Sorcerer was nerfed in:sleep/sleeping cloud/aura flare/slow/surrender to fire/cancel.Basicly almost all of or skills.
Necro wasnt nerfed at all.
And i just have to stand here and take all this trash about my class?I dont think so.
In case you hadn't noticed...I'm a sorceress too and proud even with the nerfs...Not saying it is fair what they did and hence why I state the whine topics are crap as they bring no resolve to the matters that bother us most, because the whine topics only see one view of the picture.
Ghost groups around Dev castle.In C4 (with an SE since empower+recharge is a must) sleep cloud and then kill all mobs 1 by 1.Good XP.
Bat groups in Blazing swamp are the same.And before you start telling me im not supposed to kill groups-sorcerer is supposed to be an AoE nuker right?
The XP is good since group mobs got a really nice XP bonus.
i didnt start this topic.And as you can see the topic is that nukers are overpowered-which is a filthy lie that i dont like.
Necro and SH are overpowered.
Once again - your frame of comparison should not be the necro or archers, but, say, the TK.
And Ley, I was saying that the numbers of mage crit is obviously based on full buffs - just as anyone saying anything about archers. Archers don't crit all that often (although much more frequently than a nuker admittedly) without buffs either - and most importantly, archer crits without the relevant buffs don't really hurt.
Neither mages nor archers are a significant issue without buffs. With buffs, both go crazy - mages on cast speed and crits (Siren, WM, CoWa, +6WIT), archers on attack speed and crits.
There is also the matter of the internal class balance between nukers - first aura flare and later cancel was superior to anything Necro and SE had to go around by such a huge margin that sorcerer and SpS were the definitive superior class, then they were nerfed, but SHs/Necros left alone - now the whole page has basically flipped.
In the end, I think the first thing that needs to be done before any more nerfing happens is a close look at where the overpoweredness comes from.
IMO, neither archers nor nukers nor daggers need changes to their class at current in order to bring them 'into line' with other class types. Internal balancing is needed for the nuker classes definitely, I'm less sure about daggers and archers.
For global balance, PvP damage rates, consumables, enchantments etc. all need looking into before any class except buffers/buffs gets looked at again.
I totally agree and that is what that unfortunate long post was intended to show LOL...Sorry already a hard and lond day at work here ^^ Too many ideas to be put to words ;)
Which shows that the balancing of power towards lvl MDef isn't right. But even if you wear jewels sometimes it's not enough (which we saw on my husband's archer :s )
What isn't right here? In which direction?
The MDef per level formula includes three main factors: Level modifier, usable jewellery, and MDef masteries. The first two of them are multiplicative in nature, the masteries are additive.
- Level modifier: It starts at 0.9 at level 1 and rises steadily to 1.64 at level 75, an increase of 82%. Personally, I find this is a reasonably rate, about 0.8% per level.
- Jewellery: The top NG jewellery has a combined MDef of 98, the top S-grade jewellery (as well as the A-grade raid boss jewellery) that of 333 (enchanting not factored in). That's an increase of potential MDef of 240%, or almost 1.7% per level.
- MDef masteries (Magic Resistance and Anti Magic). They start at +0 MDef (obviously ...) and both end on +108 MDef at the highest levels. Since they're not influenced by the (multiplicative, for the most part) buffs, their influence on buffed PvP or PvE is negligible. They amount to about +1.46 MDef points per level. For comparison: For an unbuffed level 75 Sorc in unsealed Majestic jewellery and robes, they amount to 13% of his total MDef; to a fully buffed one with the jewellery at +3 to just 6%.
There's a very noticeable imbalance in the amount of MDef you gain just by levelling vs. by getting better equipment (+0.8% vs. +1.7% per level, on average). I'm not sure if it's a good or a bad thing; personally, I'd prefer the actually skills (masteries) to be the deciding factor, but they're the least important here.
For reference, a full set of MDef raising buffs (Magic Barrier 2/Chant of Fire 3/Glory of Pa'agrio 3, Song of Warding, Clan Magic Protection 2, Chant of Victory/Prophecy of Water) gets you 223% of your normal MDef, masteries not included; Heroic Miracle a flat 4050 points MDef bonus (Talk about overpowered! :)); every MEN change of one point in either direction changes the MDef by about 1%; finally, armour sets can get you another +8% change (Tallum robes).
Ghost groups around Dev castle.In C4 (with an SE since empower+recharge is a must) sleep cloud and then kill all mobs 1 by 1.Good XP.
Bat groups in Blazing swamp are the same.And before you start telling me im not supposed to kill groups-sorcerer is supposed to be an AoE nuker right?
The XP is good since group mobs got a really nice XP bonus.
i didnt start this topic.And as you can see the topic is that nukers are overpowered-which is a filthy lie that i dont like.
Necro and SH are overpowered.
Indeed sorc. should have been able to stay an AoE nuker (just look at all the AoE spells we get) and that cloud was our way of controling that AoE part (or trains dropped on us in ill play back till C4).
And I think many nukers will agree that the sleep should not have been nerfed on the PvE side, but defenatly needed a fine tune on the PvP side...Now it's just utter useless and on top our AoE has become a joke as you can't do it anymore like they we did till C4 (Ruby Frapps anyone :(( I miss those parties).
But Ok...Don't think this makes any points towards the OP :eek:...
Ohhhh i forgot to add the 2 other useless spells we got.They are called rain of fire and blazing circle.
Rain of fire has NO aoe range (gotta love that in a AoE)
Blazing circle is self centered and you need to be INSIDE the group of mobs you wanna kill.And alot of mobs got aoe stun now....
Which shows that the balancing of power towards lvl MDef isn't right. But even if you wear jewels sometimes it's not enough (which we saw on my husband's archer :s )
What isn't right here? In which direction?
The MDef per level formula includes three main factors: Level modifier, usable jewellery, and MDef masteries. The first two of them are multiplicative in nature, the masteries are additive.
- Level modifier: It starts at 0.9 at level 1 and rises steadily to 1.64 at level 75, an increase of 82%. Personally, I find this is a reasonably rate, about 0.8% per level.
- Jewellery: The top NG jewellery has a combined MDef of 98, the top S-grade jewellery (as well as the A-grade raid boss jewellery) that of 333 (enchanting not factored in). That's an increase of potential MDef of 240%, or almost 1.7% per level.
- MDef masteries (Magic Resistance and Anti Magic). They start at +0 MDef (obviously ...) and both end on +108 MDef at the highest levels. Since they're not influenced by the (multiplicative, for the most part) buffs, their influence on buffed PvP or PvE is negligible. They amount to about +1.46 MDef points per level. For comparison: For an unbuffed level 75 Sorc in unsealed Majestic jewellery and robes, they amount to 13% of his total MDef; to a fully buffed one with the jewellery at +3 to just 6%.
There's a very noticeable imbalance in the amount of MDef you gain just by levelling vs. by getting better equipment (+0.8% vs. +1.7% per level, on average). I'm not sure if it's a good or a bad thing; personally, I'd prefer the actually skills (masteries) to be the deciding factor, but they're the least important here.
For reference, a full set of MDef raising buffs (Magic Barrier 2/Chant of Fire 3/Glory of Pa'agrio 3, Song of Warding, Clan Magic Protection 2, Chant of Victory/Prophecy of Water) gets you 223% of your normal MDef, masteries not included; Heroic Miracle a flat 4050 points MDef bonus (Talk about overpowered! :)); every MEN change of one point in either direction changes the MDef by about 1%; finally, armour sets can get you another +8% change (Tallum robes).
>.< Too many figures and calculations LOL My head is exploding but I see what you try to ellaborate :)
Just ment that something in the input of damage towards output of Mdef isn't totally adding up. If you are at 223% above your base stats you'd expect to get less Magical damage right? Well I've seen many a case this isn't adding up and magical damage comes in like crazy.
Ohhhh i forgot to add the 2 other useless spells we got.They are called rain of fire and blazing circle.
Rain of fire has NO aoe range (gotta love that in a AoE)
Blazing circle is self centered and you need to be INSIDE the group of mobs you wanna kill.And alot of mobs got aoe stun now....
Don't you just Love Stun and Aoe Stunning mobs ^^ Ooo and let's not forget the all wanted para in the middle of ToI with a group of berzerker mobs :)
AoE with circle was ok for as long as you had none aggro mobs stacked in groups. Now it has indeed no more value what so ever and RoF :eek: Well let's just say that it wouldn't be able to burn a forest down if we wanted to :eek:
So...Yes...We sure are overpowered as sorcerers :D (sarcastic smile)
>.< Too many figures and calculations LOL My head is exploding but I see what you try to ellaborate :)
Basically, I'm trying to show that in L2, Jewellery > Level > MDef masteries.
Just ment that something in the input of damage towards output of Mdef isn't totally adding up. If you are at 223% above your base stats you'd expect to get less Magical damage right? Well I've seen many a case this isn't adding up and magical damage comes in like crazy.
If you're, buffed, at 223% of your MDef, you should expect to get roughly 45% of the unbuffed damage (1000 instead of 2230 hit points, for example; or 450 instead of 1000 hit points).
>.< Too many figures and calculations LOL My head is exploding but I see what you try to ellaborate :)
Basically, I'm trying to show that in L2, Jewellery > Level > MDef masteries.
Just ment that something in the input of damage towards output of Mdef isn't totally adding up. If you are at 223% above your base stats you'd expect to get less Magical damage right? Well I've seen many a case this isn't adding up and magical damage comes in like crazy.
If you're, buffed, at 223% of your MDef, you should expect to get roughly 45% of the unbuffed damage (1000 instead of 2230 hit points, for example; or 450 instead of 1000 hit points).
Agreed, still sometimes it's not the case...I should screen it one of these days what I mean cause I fail to explain it correctly today LOL
Ghost groups around Dev castle.In C4 (with an SE since empower+recharge is a must) sleep cloud and then kill all mobs 1 by 1.Good XP.
Bat groups in Blazing swamp are the same.And before you start telling me im not supposed to kill groups-sorcerer is supposed to be an AoE nuker right?
The XP is good since group mobs got a really nice XP bonus.
i didnt start this topic.And as you can see the topic is that nukers are overpowered-which is a filthy lie that i dont like.
Necro and SH are overpowered.
Yup archimage is so weak in 1 v 1 vs archer, hitting the archer with steady 1k-1.6k whereas the archer hits for 400-500 and crits him 1/4 for 1-1.2k... Cancel is so useless aswell... same goes for surrender to fire/fire vortex (so slow cast speed and so short range, never lands even i could say!).
Necro, no comment... I have 520 pvp's and i can't remember much victories vs a necro with pet up, even with bd dances... But i remember beating the [censored] out of a b grade archer when i was 35 on my human mage...
SH, well i usually beat those at same level because their casting speed sucks letting me break some spells and they are stun magnets.
Archers are the mass pvp ubber class, but my point was 99% of pvp is small scale for pvp clans members at least. But and as we see in this topic most players are not too much into pvp hence their experience is based on those famous sieges fights...
At similar lvl and gear ANY mage beats the [censored] out of an archer 8/10 (talking after the lvl of balance : 61-62 or so) I'm also talking about a regular buffed situation prophet/se wich is also 99% of the situations.
Saying "necro is not a nuker" or "a mage needs to crit twice in a row", is showing complete ignorance about what we're talking about. I guess next post will be about nukers being underpowered because someone keeps got rolled by a tank or a dagger in arena...
But this system was somehow an interresting tradeoff from NC : nukers own in small scale and pve vs archers own in mass scale.
To maline again : daggers got some balance in c5, making them fun to play again, tanks same, buffers/healers same, warlords and destoyers are great in PVE, tyrants rock in pvp and pve, the only forgotten classes are gladis and dwarves in c5. Maybe it would be nice to add some skills to tanks and prophets for pvp. Oh and arrest land rate could be raised a bit, would be funnier, but C5 balancement was a good job. Interlude will bring mages up again to the well deserved FOTM status they have since C3.
Basically, I'm trying to show that in L2, Jewellery > Level > MDef masteries.
But not MEN stats bonuses wich is main source of mdef and wich fighter classes cannot modify, although mystics can modify con. Where is the logic in having robe classes have more CON than light armors?
Yup archimage is so weak in 1 v 1 vs archer, hitting the archer with steady 1k-1.6k whereas the archer crits him 1/4 for 1-1.2k... Cancel is so useless aswell.
Necro, no comment... I have 520 pvp's and i can't remember much victories vs a necro with pet up, even with bd dances... But i remember beating the [censored] out of a b grade archer when i was 35 on my mage...
Steady 1.0-1.6k as an Archmage against an archer? Double that for most targets.
As I posted earlier, in L2 Jewellery > almost all other forms of MDef. Most people just don't get it, are still running with their store-bought C-grade jewellery or at best cheap Black Ore stuff way into A- and S-grade, and crying about overpowered nukers.
Yes everyone has SE+PP buffs....in a perfect world.
SH>Sorcerer alllll the way.Why?Because they got alot more nukes and more MATK for only 3% cast speed difference.Oh wait you didnt know SH has 1 WIT less and 3 INT more....
I can subclass a necro....necro can subclass any nuker.A necro is not a nuker-you are the one that knows nothing about mage classes.Better go back to your lvl 40 mage k?
Since when nukers own in PvE?Nukers need too much mana to own anything.
Yes everyone has SE+PP buffs....in a perfect world.
(...)
Since when nukers own in PvE?Nukers need too much mana to own anything.
This is plainly hilarious, please refrain from posting kk
If you're high level and still did'nt figure out L2 is made of support AND active DD's it's maybe time to move back to tetris-online. and TBH anyone playing an archer past 6x or nuker without support needs to make a post in the "new player looking for clan" topic instead of bragging about pvp...
Well Mulch some of us actually PvE.We cant all get XP from PvP like you....
Mdef is wrong.If they have such a big problem with balancing it out maybe just make mdef like pdef and matk not square rooted but linear in nature.
Oh I PvE plenty.. but I'm not so concerned about it, it just takes time. PVP is what we/they should focus at for balancing. Anyone can PvE decently these days. It's hard to add something in PvE while not affecting PvP in some way.
About mdef, could be increased slightly, but what I REALLY want to see is levels actually meaning something! I mean, a mage 60+ has just about no fails against anyone 15-20 levels above him. I still can't forget the time I was on my 52 Necro and my friend on his 56 Necro versus TWO 70+ daggers, they both BSOE, didn't even have that many fails.. it's just WRONG!
Sure, a mystic's MEN > a fighter's MEN, but this difference doesn't change with the level, like the others I calculated do.
Yep but the MEN difference is kinda huge...
To put it in cold, hard numbers: Orc mystics (baseline MEN 42) have 18.75% more base MDef than the puny Human fighters (MEN 25).
Not sure about the calculation but maybe m barier makes the gap even bigger, and zerk wich is a often necesity for fighters makes this gap even wider.
And yeah, I seen a 56 necro beat the [censored] out of a 75 destroyer who is a pretty old school pvper too twice in a row (explointing the 600 range with bow).
Well Mulch some of us actually PvE.We cant all get XP from PvP like you....
Mdef is wrong.If they have such a big problem with balancing it out maybe just make mdef like pdef and matk not square rooted but linear in nature.
Oh I PvE plenty.. but I'm not so concerned about it, it just takes time. PVP is what we/they should focus at for balancing. Anyone can PvE decently these days. It's hard to add something in PvE while not affecting PvP in some way.
About mdef, could be increased slightly, but what I REALLY want to see is levels actually meaning something! I mean, a mage 60+ has just about no fails against anyone 15-20 levels above him. I still can't forget the time I was on my 52 Necro and my friend on his 56 Necro versus TWO 70+ daggers, they both BSOE, didn't even have that many fails.. it's just WRONG!
Hence why I said something's not right in the first place on that aspect.
PvE wise I'm only disappointed on AoE...But that's no biggy.
I'd rather have balanced PvP and indeed have lvl mean something.
And as i have stated MANY times im 1000% for a Necro nerf okay?
A char that isnt a nuker can nuke better than me.A char that isnt a summoner can XP (he doesnt have the buffs summoners got but the nukes make up for it) much better than a summoner can.
I talk about MY class and when someone posts saying ALL nukers are overpowered i get edgy.
Oh and im not responding to someone with a name like Facesit.The choice of name clearly shows the age of that player.
Thank you Leyanire... someone who actually knows me from in-game.
To the person who has challenged my integrity on the subject:
Your assumption that I spend time in the arena is wrong. I visit the monster derby to perform certain clan business and leave to play the game. I'm not an arena [censored] and have a long history on these boards of explicit distaste for people who hang around the arena all day and use that as theiur basis of whinery (makes you wonder how they got their XP with such obvious lack of game knowledge outside the arena... but I digress)
Also, neither my wife nor I have epics NOR do we have access to these great buffs. We are a small clan and are the two highest toons in that clan and tend to grind self-buffed.
You cannot wage a discussion about the CLASSes in question without the necessity of introducing end-game variables to make your points for you.
Those of you who assume that everyone must have access to these full top level buffs and jewelry are beyond hope because you must premise your entire argument on the end game... something that many of us legit players have yet to reach even after years of play.
If you must discount the larger majority of players that do not have such luxuries in order to make your point, then at least be intellectually honest about it and construct your argument to include the caveat that all toons in question must be at the echelon of the gaming plateau and recognize that the arguments utterly fail as you descend the ladder.
You whine and whine about your sorc being shafted.. yes they do need something, but they still hurt just as much as any other nuker (use aura bolt as well). SH and especially Necro has been on top for a while now, and I think NC wants it that way. Notice I talk about PVP here, couldn't care less about PvE, all nukers have it pretty easy in PvE (and boring).
Awww, don't bash on the necros too much.. first of all I see Necros as a nuker with few nukes and many curses, with cool pets. Giving them Transfer Pain might have been a bit much though, and land-rate on Anchor and Silence has been messed up since C5. Overpowered, definitely!
Mulch - please. Try posting something you have some experience on. Necros have more nuking ability and power than a sorc. PLUS they have things like anchor and silence. PLUS they have their summon.
I'm always up for an educated debate. That's not what you bring to the table with regard to nukers.
Tokara
melee class's are in normaal range they have the edge when it comes to 4x 5x mobs
when people say nukers they most not include a sorc or SPS in it they dont even stand in the shadow of the other 2 nukers
like B2M, Silence and no the cast speed of a SH vs SPS,Socr leave them eat the ground
What abisha said.....when ppl say nukers they mean 2! classes.Sh and Necro thats all.
Aura bolt....here comes a dilemma.You either use aura bolt+bsps or you use prominence 1 more time but you save 460 adena.And when you have to kill 30000 mobs to lvl....you got the picture?I dont have some magical way to make money either...like some ppl.
Ill bash necros to the ground as hard as i can.They are the main reason my class is getting shafted time and time again.
When they gave body to mind+death spike+curse death link+anchor they made the necro overpowered.
You dont want to talk about necros?Got a necro sub maybe?
Well, with vamp claw no longer serving as a full power spell, necros don't actually have superior nuking ability - about equal, until you get into a frazzle that doesn't happen at 900, where the sorc pulls ahead.
(PS: Nuking power only. Not strength. Everyone knows what's up with necros and strength. >.> I think.)
ETA2: Aura Bolt is a PvP spell which is used between blazes in order to produce higher burst DPS when range has started to close in.
Oh and - nukers complaining about shot costs. That's rich - really rich. Try being a tyrant, dagger, summoner or assisting healer/buffer.
Well, I can say that the last time I partied with a necro.. early C5, we were at ketras and his nuke (not cdl btw - he maintained full health) was doing about 200 more damage than my prominence was, both with bsps... and I had him by about 7 levels.
Maybe things have changed? I can only relate my experiences. Thankfully, he was able to nuke the whole time while I was regenning.
As you know full well, if it was a necro and not a soultaker (which he couldn't have been if you had him by 7 damage) the only way he was doing more damage was through a difference of equipment or resistances.
He was a necro, he was wearing nightmare robes and a non-glowy BoTM. I was (am) wearing DC robes with a mildly glowy SoM.
And some additional levels.
Now, by all means Maline with you crack about educated debates, what level is your sorc? Your necro?
I interpret your post to mean that either you think I'm clueless about the necro and his level (he is a friend and former clannie) and/or his equipment (easily seen) OR you are accusing me of being a liar.
I'm pointing out that education would dictate that knowing that differences in damage between all nuker classes at all levels go back to
A) INT. Unapplicable between sorc and necro.
B) Gear. (obviously the case here, and nothing to do with him being necro - seeing how NM robes are actually beneficial to sorcs doubly, and, while useful for necros, not nearly as useful as for sorcs or SpS).
C) Level. (on your side)
D) Use of C:DL (excluded here)
E) Mob resistances (ordinarily in favour of the sorcerer, VoS and some of the new higher-level areas being the obvious exception).
Not to say: Twister, Hydroblast, Prominence, and Death Spike all have the same power rating given the same user level.
Whatever the difference between the necro and you was had nothing to do with class.
Maline, while you may be a student of mathematics you fall short in application.
Firstly, the class has everything to do with the choice of gear used.
The NM robes are idea for the necro, adding the +8% to mattck and the +2 to int. Add to that the higher M Att of the staff seems to have a clear equipment edge to the Necro (despite the square rooting of that MAttk equation and the fact that my OEing catched my MAttk up just a wee bit, plus I have my INT tatt'd up, though he may have as well).
As a Sorc I NEED the DC if I want to PvP. I have to try to get that extra nuke out so I need all the casting speed I can get because raw power isn't what a Sorc has. I also need the extra Pdef since I don't have a summon to take any of my damage for me.
The very nature of the class is what determines what equipment is necessary. And 7 levels lower than me, a Necro in their prime gear is out-damaging me in my prime gear.
No, the NM robes are not as good for the necro as they are for a sorc, as they hamper his MP regeneration through body to mind - but you know, that's application, not pure maths, so what do I know?
Get a backup set? Or don't complain about levelling slowly in PvP gear...
The NM robes do not hamper your regeneration, they do give you noticable damage boosts (since you have the same power as a necromancer of the same level), etc. They don't put you at extra incredible risk while C:DLing either - mostly because you can't.
Seriously now... let me go put doom heavy on a melee and wonder why my damage output is low. ><
LOL your answer to the class difference is Get another NM set? Some of us don't seem to enjoy the same amount of expendable income methinks.
And I don't know how many Sorcs YOU see in NM, but in my (limited) experience, it's the Necros wearing NM and the Sorcs wearing DC.
The LAST thing a Sorc needs is to cast slower. See we don't have a summon to get aggro, or a root to keep a mob at a distance or a drain that works past 40, so we need to kill fast and hope the mob doesn't catch up to us. DC gives us a faster cast and run speed and pdef, making it BETTER for PvE as well as PvP.
That, my friend is application.
But again, your experience playing a sorc is still zero even though I've suggested many times to play the toon since you seem to care to try to debate everything I know about the class via first-hand knowledge.
nameless1
bro i get some times to sick of it but i did not start it look topic name Overpowered Nukers!
it's addressed to me then and all other nuker class's
when i put in a topic overpowered Warlords Blah blah blah
and put [censored] in it whats not true you will be posting their to
This thread is directed at my class nameless not yours.
Ive read the same bs in C3/C4.I didnt say anything then and thats why (ppl whining too much) my class is dead now.
This time i wont keep silence-ill continue to post FACTS from my own gameplay that i ACTUALLY prove i have a 75 sorc and I KNOW my class.Ppl that play a necro cant have any say in the matter-go make a lvl 75 Sorcerer without an SE slave then come tell me how godly my class is.
And no lvl 67 doesnt cut it.Because right after that lvl things started to get ugly for my class.
Sure,anytime. It's beating a dead horse. Same arguments,same debates. Its tiring. Whoever said,18 pages ago, "make ME all powerful..nerf the people that could actually :: gasp:: beat me in PVP" , was dead on. I get tired of defending my choice in toons. I've played the same character for 2 years and for 2 years i've had to fight the same Whine.
Here's a suggestion. Post a novel idea. Something that has not yet been beaten to death. Till then, don't post. At least you wouldn't be a hypocrite in that case.
Also, I'm sure you realize that you don't have to read or respond to any thread. You choose to. Control your own destiny instead of placing that responsibility on the people who have different interests than you.
And lastly, when people post ignorantly about my class in such a manner that it can influence others who choose to remain ignorant of my class, I am going to sprinkle a little reality on the thread. It's something I choose to do, just like you have chosen to put your 2 cents in without adding to the discussion we're trying to have.
I can only hope that you are plagued by people who elect to enter into the discussions you have an interest in, only to mutter on about how that discussion doesn't meet their personal approval.
Aside from that, I hope you have a wonderful weekend.
nameless1
bro i get some times to sick of it but i did not start it look topic name Overpowered Nukers!
it's addressed to me then and all other nuker class's
when i put in a topic overpowered Warlords Blah blah blah
and put [censored] in it whats not true you will be posting their to
LOL your answer to the class difference is Get another NM set? Some of us don't seem to enjoy the same amount of expendable income methinks.
And I don't know how many Sorcs YOU see in NM, but in my (limited) experience, it's the Necros wearing NM and the Sorcs wearing DC.
The LAST thing a Sorc needs is to cast slower. See we don't have a summon to get aggro, or a root to keep a mob at a distance or a drain that works past 40, so we need to kill fast and hope the mob doesn't catch up to us. DC gives us a faster cast and run speed and pdef, making it BETTER for PvE as well as PvP.
That, my friend is application.
But again, your experience playing a sorc is still zero even though I've suggested many times to play the toon since you seem to care to try to debate everything I know about the class via first-hand knowledge.
Please stop, you're making a fool of yourself. When you said LIMITED experience, you hit the nail right on the head! That goes for Lisail (sp?) too..
Sorc and Necro have equal nuking power.. main spell for main spell.. you can't come and argue that a necro does more dmg than you when he obviously has gear like NM robes that is DESIGNED for maximizing damage PER SHOT at the cost of CASTING SPEED! DC still outdamage NM over time (not in PVE perhaps). Also, you must have extremely limited experience, because I can't remember the last time I saw a Necro with NM robes, DC is the obvious choice for PVP, for ALL nukers! If I didn't think you were a [censored], I'd almost get upset by your ignorance!
Oh.. and BTW, Sorc gets MORE nuking power than a Necro at 77 with Fire Vortex.. if you notice that Fire Vortex has power 140 and Dark Vortex was nerfed in C5 to 109(?). Oh, don't come and say Gloom, it won't add as much damage as Fire Vortex+surrender to fire (that also stack with Gloom if you got Necro on your side), plus you have Aura Bolt if you're close enough, and cancel that is still good but require a bit more luck than it used to. Decay also ignore Transfer Pain. That was the POWER discussion, can't argue with mathmatics.. application please?!
Now of course, all the Sorcs here think I'm saying that a Sorc will beat a Necro, that won't happen against an experience necro, unless you're lucky. Silence, Anchor, tons of other debuffs and a summon with TP makes Necros very tough, I never argued that.. read what I'm writing please. Someone really doesn't like anyone being stronger than them.. reroll/sub? You know you can sub a Necro..
I don't need to play a Sorc to 75 or whatever to know what I'm talking about, that's just your pride or whatever trying to dismiss what other people try to argue.. denial is a nice vehicle.. :eek: Here, have another blindfold? I've played all nukers to a decent level, so i have a taste of their skills/spells. I've also PVP'ed all of them on more than ONE occation during the last soon to be 3 years.
Here's a suggestion. Post a novel idea. Something that has not yet been beaten to death. Till then, don't post. At least you wouldn't be a hypocrite in that case.
How is saying "this thread topic has been beaten to death and i'm sick of hearing it" hypocritical?
Yup you played all nukers in a group of players with names ffgsddfg ghjklg and gktltn right?
This is C5.Many things changed in this Cr and most notably the pdef and mdef of the mobs (pve) and most of MY skills (pvp).Untill you play a Sorc till 75 you would have known nothing about the class.The grind after lvl 70 is MUCH different (i dont mean just longer).And the more i climb the lvls the more lacking in dmg my spells become (pvp).
Hey Mulch and Maline, the point of this thread is that Nukers, especially Sorcerers ARE NOT OVERPOWERED so **** about it? Thats the point yes?
Sorcerers have been nerfed MORE THAN any other class to date. Now I take a huge offense at that, since in the beginning the developers for this game ACTUALLY SAID they don't seek to nerf classes but to add to the gameplay to balance their current skills. That proved to be utter bullsh*t as they have now gone through full force nerfing on many classes since the major nerf on dagger class way back in C2, although now it seems daggers are doing well. But daggers weren't nerfed as much as a Sorcerer. To date, the Sorcerer class is the most nerfed out of ALL the classes.
So don't complain about Sorcerers being "overpowered" because THAT IS utter BULLSH*T.
Yup you played all nukers in a group of players with names ffgsddfg ghjklg and gktltn right?
This is C5.Many things changed in this Cr and most notably the pdef and mdef of the mobs (pve) and most of MY skills (pvp).Untill you play a Sorc till 75 you would have known nothing about the class.The grind after lvl 70 is MUCH different (i dont mean just longer).And the more i climb the lvls the more lacking in dmg my spells become (pvp).
Your first comment just show me that you have no valid arguments left for me.
So.. the ONLY thing you have to say is that ... boohoo.. PVE is slow and boring, wish I had B2M lvl 6 and an overhit spell. Nice! I'm truly astonished by your arguments.
I discuss what matters.. P.V.P. Where the Sorc is still a force to be reckoned with, even though they should get something more.
Next, nukers have been nerfed harder than daggers.. lol? Did you play in C2 and C3? In C2 daggers were GODS, in C3 NC Soft literally slit their wrists. C4 made it better, and C5 made them uber again.
Not many classes has been boosted as much as nukers since closed beta, so stop yer whining!! Only in the last couple Chr have they recieved a few nerfs, but they have also gotten 3rd class skills, that ROCK. Archers (and all fighters) gets a nerf in interlude, with more sure to come.
As have been mentioned, can't believe that overpowered nukers and archers whine about being underpowered.. it's true irony!
No where did it say in that post you are underowered. It said you are a force to be reckoned with. He/She is just saying that you have no variety of skills compared to other nukers.
If you think you are underpowered in PvP you should try playing a melee. In most mass PvP, a melee wont even get close to being in range before they are simply obliterated by a Nuker or Archer.
Er remember the Rock Paper Scissor system they introduced? Nukers > Melees. That is the intent. Supposedly the only class thats supposed to clearly win against nukers are healers (laugh)...but I guess this system went to the gutter pretty quick?
Also, to Mulch, did you even play daggers in C2? You keep talking about stuff you have absolutely no clue over. Daggers were SUPER in C2 and they were nerfed accordingly. Actually it was more MM on daggers than anything else. I guess NCSOFT felt that backlash pretty hard since the logical thing they should have done, from their track record, is remove acumen from mage weapons...but instead they decided to nerf the actual SKILL tree of the nukers, which was utterly stupid. I really can't understand what kind of thinking they do or if they even clearly understand the repurcussion to the game when they make such stupid changes.
If you had a clue about C2 daggers, you'd know that MM wasn't the only reason daggers were so godly in C2.. hint, Vicious Stance damage and Blows would almost NEVER fail. BTW, focused daggers were almost as good as MM daggers back then. I would almost never fail a mortal blow, and that was on my HE back then, and it did very good damage, you know why? Because VS bypassed pdef back then.
No, I didn't play dagger as main, but if you looked around, half the server was a dagger, or was rerolling one! I felt their blade more than once, to say the least, 2-3 shotting everything left and right. I literally heard them screaming for recharges in the middle of mass PVP..
Don't worry, I don't understand NC logic either ;)
Pam, I don't know what to say anymore - you argue that I've not played so I can't possibly see perfectly obvious things - I can tell you my experience though. And that is with elemental summoners, that every time I've proposed something and was told it would never worked, I turned out to have been right once I could put it into practice.
No, I won't play a boring-as-all class just to make a point. But sorcs other than you are managing in NM - and as long as you can manage in it, it's rather obviously the better PvE set.
If you decided to spend your limited resources on a PvP set, don't complain about it not giving you the desired effect in PvE - that's your own fault.
Guess what? Melee sets are different for PvE and PvP too - as are their tattoo setups, which would get quite pricey if they continually switched them around - quite a bit more pricey than a NM set quite quickly. At least you have the option.
1.) Necromancers in NM sacrifice DPS and MP management for... uhm. Right. The only reason a necro would be wearing NM would be either as a fashion statement, or in order to two-shot something he otherwisely can't - both good enough reasons for sorcs to wear it, too.
2.) Cast speed is all good and dandy, but since your restricting factor in PvE is your MP anyway, there's no reason you shouldn't be walking around looking for a 'safe kill'.
3.) You chose a support-reliant class. You either were ignorant of your class or knew this at 40. Get with the support you need (SE) and rooting will take care of the adds. If you wanted to solo, you should have gone warlock.
4.) Buy and carry BSoEs, elexirs, GHPs and all that jazz if you haven't already. They help with emergencies - and everyone else has them. Needs to have them.
Mulch
i am from C3 late C3 but i hear daggers where killed that time of C2 but then again true balance is just to hard to make but we all know without even knowing some "nuker" class's are just 3x more stronger then the other 2 class's so when people start to scream stuff like nukers are overpowered they hit also the wannabie nukers and no it's not just the nukers that realy need some loveing nobody even knows what a TK at least i never seen and yes most Healer/buffing class's can use realy some powerups no wonder they all are boxed.
Mulch, Your personal issue with me in no way negates your utter ignorance with regard to my class, its relation to other nukers, its effectiveness in pve solo or group, or the effects that the latest round of nerfs have had on its playability.
Do you play a Sorc?
That pretty much tells me how much you know about the class. I have leveled my main from C2. I have very intimate knowledge of what works, what doesn't work, and how my class has changed and been affected. You can stand on the outside and crow your ignorance. And when I use the term "limited" it is sarcasm. You don't see many people playing sorcs at my level, and there are 2 reasons for it:
1) they are not in the top 2 of the 4 nuker classes and even OLs and WCs are more popular when you add that to the mix because Sorcs just do not own in PvP And.....
2) the leveling of a sorc is such a crawl once you get past mid sixties that few legit players have the patience to grind them. (And the "other" player types know about the first point)
As to MalineII. You can cite perfectly obvious things all you like, but you must blank out when you start typing.
While it may be easy and convenient for you to have multiple armor sets, boss jewels and full top level buffs (since that's what you need to sustain your position) the rest of us... we don't.
So when you are comparing us to necros (holy crap, talking about missing the obvious) there are insurmountable, fundamental differences that place the Necro miles ahead of the Sorc, and even as a pure Nuker! btm alone makes the necro outperform the sorc. The ability to cdl and drain makes the necro a superior straight-up nuker. The ability to anchor melee mobs and silence nuker mobs... oh yeah, that alone makes a necro, straight up nuking, a better class than the sorc.
THEN you factor in the summon.
Straight-up, a nuker that can anchor has less need of cast speed, run speed and pdef, which is why a necro can afford to pve in NM over DC for pete's sake.
And, perhaps you live your L2 days picking the flowers and begging people not to fight you, but I have built my toon to participate in end-game events. When people take the fight to me, they get that fight back despite my carebear persona. So PvP was my build from the get-go. Perhaps yopu are suggesting that if people want to legitimately earn their levels, they should gimp their toon in terms pf gear for pvp... (or find means by which to buy all this A-S grade stuff you somehow afford).
And the person (had to have been mulch but I could be mistaken) who suggested an equal level sorc has a chance... even a minor one at killing a necro is clearly spending too much time in a smoky volkswagon bus. Maybe of the necro is afk....
I said they were overpowered because i never played them Sovrath and they say every nuker is.But i know enough about Sorc+SpS so those 2 classes are not.Why dont you tell us the reason SHs are gimp?
If you had a clue about C2 daggers, you'd know that MM wasn't the only reason daggers were so godly in C2.. hint, Vicious Stance damage and Blows would almost NEVER fail. BTW, focused daggers were almost as good as MM daggers back then. I would almost never fail a mortal blow, and that was on my HE back then, and it did very good damage, you know why? Because VS bypassed pdef back then.
No, I didn't play dagger as main, but if you looked around, half the server was a dagger, or was rerolling one! I felt their blade more than once, to say the least, 2-3 shotting everything left and right. I literally heard them screaming for recharges in the middle of mass PVP..
Don't worry, I don't understand NC logic either ;)
Read again, I didn't say MM was the only reason but it was the PRIMARY reason why daggers became a defunct class after C2. Hell most of the other adjustments weren't even that much different than what they had before. But THE REASON that daggers took a huge blow was the removal of MM. Why do you think MM daggers were so expensive up the the introduction of C5?
I said they were overpowered because i never played them Sovrath and they say every nuker is.But i know enough about Sorc+SpS so those 2 classes are not.Why dont you tell us the reason SHs are gimp?
They are not gimp. But they are not overpowered.
Necros can kill us. Sorcerors used to be able to outcast us as well as sps.
No one has ever said we were overpowered. Not gimp though.
But given the same buffs and equpment I bet a sps or sorceror would be able to outcast us, interupt our spells and kill us.
Then again, this is based upon earlier chronicles. I realize that sleep was a huge factor in this. Still...
Mulch, Your personal issue with me in no way negates your utter ignorance with regard to my class (..))
Do you play a Sorc?
(...)
1) they are not in the top 2 of the 4 nuker classes and even OLs and WCs are more popular when you add that to the mix because Sorcs just do not own in PvP And.....
2) the leveling of a sorc is such a crawl
Sorc is not in top 2 of the nukers...
Guys I never read so much [censored] accumaletd in one thread. Some of you show you re still in the gameplay of early C1. I see sorcs necros and sh complaining how gimp they are... I mean common if you can't figure out how to play a mage, go play a hawkeye on selfbuffs after 61 and post your observations here after that...
Sorc is the 2nd harder hitting nuker and 2nd fastest caster, give us a break dude. Go and download pvp videos and learn how to play your class, but i swear to god you give us all a headache.
The funniest guy was the one complaining how SH is gimp and how low magic crit rate is compared to mellee's crit rate...
I could level an SH sub to 75 in one month maybe one and a half...
The point is...
HOW to balance a game with i guess a majority of players playing "casually" and not pvping much. Maybe pvping in olympiad, that s about it. It s completely different pvp from the "experienced" pvp, me maline and mulch are talking about.
Should the DD classes be balanced for unbuffed pvp like olympiad/arena, for sieges, or for pvp like we have on american servers (clan wars, ganks, small/medium scale pvp).
Let me say once again, that you have proffesions in this game, so don t expect do own in pvp with a dwarf or warlord. But most support classes has been made interresting in pvp in C5. Daggers got fixed and are very balanced, it's a pleasure to pvp a dagger atm, really. Mages got slightly nerfed with new resist buffs, but nothing dramatic.
If you re playing a mage and feel underpowered it's really time to either change game, reroll a hawkeye (lol) and stop posting here.
I never said everyone runs in boss jewels and songs/dances/cov/resists/healer/cat buff. I actually mentionned this as an illustration.
It happens in sieges and requires quite a lot of clan sacrifices and organisation to set archer parties like this (not talking about how to equip the archers well). All this work pays off at sieges, take this off and we're back to C3/C4 with mages with a bd and a healer>all in every and all situation, you said balance...?
So how to balance this? NC allready looked uppon stats on servers and gimped mellees for interlude. So mages will be top in casual pvp/medium scale and stronger than now at mass pvp and pve. It's pretty sad and i guess will make some non mage players quit...
You're saying something else altogether just now again Pam - as you know perfectly well, nobody doubted that the necro pretty much hands down outperforms the sorc, especially in PvE.
You did try to tote around a damage-per-nuke difference though, which just plain out doesn't exist.
With more and more addition of items and buffs that +++cast speed the diff between us is next to noneexistant.You hit harder though.
Name me 1 class necro doesnt beat. :)
Oh yeah, we hit very hard. that is why we aren't gimp. And it is true that we can close the gap with the casting speed. But we can't match the speed of a sorceror or sps.
Quite frankly, I think SH does extremely well staying in the back of pvp groups and taking off large swaths of damage. I love my class and would never change. But I don't think we are overpowered.
oh Come on, everyone knows there are no females in L2.
I'm a female.. and a 71 sorc at that. I love my class even with the nerfs and I intend to take her to 77+ no matter how long it takes. We aren't overpowered but we aren't gimp either. Agree, better MP management and another element skill is needed but I've learned to play with the skills I have.
I have no personal issue with you Pam.. just the stuff that you say isn't always very enlightened.
MM wasn't the primary reason that daggers were overpowered in C2, MM on daggers now is better than it was then. It was the whole system of how the stabs worked. Focus SA was just as good for landing strikes back then.
When you talk, you sound like Sorcs are some gimp that can't even kill a flower without going OOM. Are you really that hopeless as a sorc?
A Sorc could easily kill a Necro with summon before the sleep nerf. Seen it many times, but that was a good sorc playing. Now it's a different ball game, I said a good Necro will almost never lose to a Sorc, bar freak accidents. Just be thankful most Necros suck at their class. You can beat one with Unholy resistance and Divine Protection, their damage will be lol then, easily remedied with pots, just pray Silence or Anchor doesn't land :p
I say it again, I couldn't care less how the Sorc levels, suck it up, it's PVP I'm talking about. I don't argue the PvE side of the Sorcs.
SPS doesn't suck.. try fighting one ffs, they hit hard and fast!
SpS kinda suck, except for a dps. Definitely not overpowered in PvE and nothing compared to a buffed archer in pvp. Buffed archer verses buffed mage, archer wins most of the time.
Sorc are alright in PvP also, and alright in PvE.
SH are PvE kings imo. Perfect for the person who likes to solo. A good class to have for those types of people. Should it be nerfed? LOL...I don't think any leveling in L2 should be nerfed! In PvP they are also pretty good, hitting hard but not unstoppable.
Necros! Well you have fast casting, silence, paralyze, transfer pain, life drains, body to mind, cdl, and hard hitting. Along with a super strong AoE (corpse burst). All those combined do make an overpowered character. Great for PvE (sure kinda expensive) and basically kings of PvP along side a drac bow archer. Necros aren't pure nukers. They are a summon/nuker hybrid. Basically getting both of best worlds with tons of damaging debuffs.
So what it comes down to is, any and every class can be good in pvp. Every class can't kill everyone in pvp. If you can't deal with this concept, play a different game.
I play legit, which means PvE is ESSENTIAL to the game.
The most dangerous mob in the game is the player and I gear for pvp. MalineII would accuse me of gimping myself in pvp otherwise, that's how she plays the debate game. But that is yet another of internal character balancing in the sorc class.
Sorcs that are "managing" in NM do not make that the right set for the class. I've already explained the Sorc class benefits of DC as well as I will be able to. Listen or ignore at your own behest.
And I'm not here to cry about my class. Just to refute some of the bs be spread about it.
I don't claim to know how it is to level a summoner, because I am ignorant to the class. Conversely, there are a lot of people here who have NOT experienced playing a Sorc (and as noted the challenge intensifies greatly in the upper 60s) who are, for their own agendas, suggesting they know more about my class than I, and other sorcs in this thread do.
Good people, no doubt, but uninformed nonetheless.
The real problem i got with SH is that with the many stacking WIT bonuses the difference in cast speed between a Sorc and SH is noneexistant.They still hit ALOT harder though :(
First of all, the difference in cast speed between Sorc/Necro and SH has always been very small, 1 WIT difference, that is roughly 5% faster cast speed. So that argument is invalid. You can't compare a nuker with +4 wit with +0 wit.
For Pam. Maline was arguing that it's natural to do more damage with NM than with DC robes, to counter the fact that the Necro did more damage while lower level, it is only natural! He/she never argued that the DC set was better in PVP.
I never argued that sorcs and sps' come up short in the PvE game in terms of longevity/mana management. I know the difference is huge in that area. But arguing that the sorc is weak.. far from it, that us pure whining. All nukers are powerful, and overpowered compared to most melee classes. That is one of the points I'm trying to bang through some heads here.
All nukers are powerful, and overpowered compared to most melee classes. That is one of the points I'm trying to bang through some heads here.
as a melee even i realize sorc and sps are nerfed - not compared to me mind you, all mage classes can kill me before i break their cp if played right unless i have full resist buffs in which case they only hit me for double the damage i hit them for
the huge imbalance in pve is BTM in which case sorcs have an advantage over spellsingers since even lvl 1 BTM has a better effefct than the spell singer hand buff
in pvp i wouldnt really say you are that nerfed against your fellow mages
mid groud cast speed and mid ground damage is fine you just lack a second nuke as already stated
getting your first vortex at 77 is fine if you ask me
sure its 1 lvl later than the other mages but still 1 lvl earlier than most melee classes get their main skills
sure boost sorcs w/e
prolly dont deserve boosts half as much as other classes but at least they need it more than necro/dagger/archer/tyrant/destro
Aren't they the best AOE mage class? They also get a weak btm, decay, cancel, and AOE sleep. They seem to fit pretty well between SPS and SH.
I always thought Sorcs were not meant to solo so much as they are meant to be in an AOE party.. a nice compliment to a pole party, or even a regular party that needs AOE crowd control.
Aren't they the best AOE mage class? They also get a weak btm, decay, cancel, and AOE sleep. They seem to fit pretty well between SPS and SH.
I always thought Sorcs were not meant to solo so much as they are meant to be in an AOE party.. a nice compliment to a pole party, or even a regular party that needs AOE crowd control.
yeah thats how they were meant to be
i have never played a sorc so i cant really comment but the way i hear it is the cloud sleep nerf made aoe un doable and the reduction in the amount of mobs you can hit with anything except a pole and high lvl masteries means they cant aoe enough mobs to make a real mage aoe party worthwhile
necro are currently the best mage aoer in game due to their higher damage but it is abit tricky to pull it off
obviously i see things abit differently and things like nerfed cloud sleep, sweet dots, cancel and single target 900 range huge damage non-overhit nukes seem like kickass skills
but if you were a sorc looking over at all the other mages killing mobs and ppl better than you you'd prolly be ****** too (kinda like how i feel about destro and tyrant :P)
Aren't they the best AOE mage class? They also get a weak btm, decay, cancel, and AOE sleep. They seem to fit pretty well between SPS and SH.
I always thought Sorcs were not meant to solo so much as they are meant to be in an AOE party.. a nice compliment to a pole party, or even a regular party that needs AOE crowd control.
Best AOE nuker is sps. Both Sorc and SpS have 2 AOE skills (blazing circle/rain of fire and frost wall/aqua splash respectively), but the SpS frost wall is the highest damage AOE nuke in game (unless you consider necro's corpse burst, but then a necro is no nuker, it is just a lol class as we all know):
lvl 74 skillset:
Blazing Circle power 64
Rain of Fire power 54
Tempest (SH) power 54
Aqua Splash power 54
Frost Wall power 76
(for comparison: necro corpse burst power 108)
So, no - Sorc is not "the best AOE mage class", sps is. That is the thing I am trying to "bang into heads" here - Sorc has not only less full range nukes than the other classes and only one element to attack with, they also have no area they are best in. SH have highest damage and best mp management as well as the most nukes, sps has fastest casting speed and all the aoe skills the sorc has (2 aoe nukes plus sleeping cloud) as well as the highest aoe damage, and overhit nuke with sacred attack (which a LOT of mobs are weak to).
Let's get a few things straight at least where I am concerned.
Firstly, I noted that the Necro I partied with was outdamaging me per nuke and him at a lower level. He wearing the right gear for his class, me wearing the right gear for mine. That's the simple fact of the circumstance. Maline, as always, was simply trying to discredit me via some round-about argument that ultimately does not change anything.
Secondly, I am not going about proposing any boosts to my class. My involvement in this thread is simply to keep it real when people make boldly falacious statements regarding the Sorc (at least as far as being included in the overpowered class status). I wouldn't mind seeing a rollback of the sleep cloud nerf, but I'm not looking for additional boosts.
Thirdly, If you want to compare a Sorc's 1v1 pvp ability to that of a Dorf's (BigHands) sure you'll come away saying the Sorc is overpowered. But I can't craft my SoM so the Dorf is overpowered, not to mention you can carry many more cpp and qhp than me so again the dorf is overpowered. - Sound ridiculous? Of course. You have your role in the game, I have mine. Why other classes want to ignore their roles and simply focus on removing mine so that they can play that role as well... well that's absurd. I am supposed to be damage output, so why complain that I have that? All the sorc has anymore is a quickly depleted prominence spell for damage output. 1-trick pony.
As for AoE parties, the same problem exists as with any party. If we don't have a dedicated near-level recharger we are good for a few mobs then worthless again. Hey support classes exist for a reason and we all do better with them, but to be sidelines without them... that's a different story.
I have yet to get an answer as to why people who elect not to play damage dealers complain about players who do choose to play damage dealers... and deal damage. You conveniently ignore the negatives that accompany my class, focus on your disadvantages and skip on past the point where you had an opportunity to choose a DD class if that was what you wanted to do.
Frost wall though, last time I tried it, is a point-blank range AOE. Or almost point blank.
And sleep cloud is sorta usable, kinda. Problem is even on an sps, even with speed everything, chances are you'll pull aggro before getting it off, or it fails on enough mobs that you get owned anyway.
Rain of Fire has LOWER (alot lower) AoE range than other AoE nukes.Its actually pretty useless.For example it cant catch an entire pobby groups only 3 mobs from 5.
Blazing circle roflmao.Why dont YOU stand between 20 mobs and see YOU survive after casting blazing circle.Before the AoE nerf i could steal hate from the tank in the group!
And for Mulch-after you break the 1k cast speed 4% dont seem so much of a difference(1 WIT). But 3 INT are always welcome.
I dont know what they intended the Sorcerer to be.I know only that they failed doing what they intended.
I've seen both aqua splash (which is just about the same as rain of fire last I checked?) and frost wall (which is also point blank and higher power than blazing circle, therefore drawing more aggro) used successfully in C5 - of course, it requires you to cooperate with a poler who, unlike a tank, has a fairly easy time keeping aggro ... and is usually with a live healer capable of outhealing the train for the crucial few seconds.
And no EQ - the DC robe set is a fully workable PvE set for necromancers, but it is not for sorcerers. Your main constraint in grind speed is mana (unless you will deny your mana issuesnow...), the necro's main concern in grind speed is amount of mobs available for a kill, and, at higher levels, available hunting grounds.
You're wearing PvP armour for PvE and complaining that it's not working.
The necro's wearing PvE armour for PvE and ... it's working.
Any nuker that's wearing NM in PvP is ruining their DPS - and in PvE, the necro also hampers his MP management, his survivability and all that jazz.
Get an SE duo so you don't have to worry about the speed of your crowd control, if you don't already have an SE box. If you got to 75 without making friends with the one crucial support class you need (unlike melees, that better build on having BDs, SwS, healers, buffers, tanks and other DDs in their party-making lists), is that really the game's fault?
ETA: Not just dwarves, not just dwarves... and yes, you, for all intents and purposes, can craft your own SoM. That there's a dwarf sitting there doing it hardly matters with the mechanics currently in place - that's like saying buffers are huge damage dealers and counting all the damage that the actual DDs wouldn't have done without them as the buffer's damage...
And no EQ - the DC robe set is a fully workable PvE set for necromancers, but it is not for sorcerers. Your main constraint in grind speed is mana (unless you will deny your mana issuesnow...), the necro's main concern in grind speed is amount of mobs available for a kill, and, at higher levels, available hunting grounds.
Necros can wear DC OR NM. NM doesn't hamper the Necro who has other weaponry in her arsenal (such as anchoring his target before nuking, then btm then corpse drain) which will allow her to nuke without need for speed boost and a means to regain the extra mana lost by the extra spell. Things a Sorc does not have. The Sorc needs to kill fast as possible. A NM set isn't the worst thing a sorc could wear, but even for PvE DC is better than the NM set would be. The extra damage and mana regen of NM do not outweigh the cast and movement speed of the DC in either PvP or PvE for the Sorc. But if you PLAYED one, you'd know that. 4% mana regen boost doesn't exactly set the world on fire for a Sorc. But you'd know that if you any any first hand knowledge of the subject.
You're wearing PvP armour for PvE and complaining that it's not working.
I like most legit players have a single set of A grade armor. My choice, as for most players that haven't made the decision to shun PvP, is to go with what is best for the pvp aspect of the game. And as stated several times the DC set is optimal for the Sorc over NM for PvE as well as PvP. You should try the DC on your Sorc and test it out.... oh right. You can't actually test out your theory can you?
The necro's wearing PvE armour for PvE and ... it's working.
Ah yes, the Necro class, due to it's much greater array of options can make better use of the NM set. I'm still trying to figure out how that makes the Sorc overpowered, but no doubt you'll explain.
Any nuker that's wearing NM in PvP is ruining their DPS - and in PvE, the necro also hampers his MP management, his survivability and all that jazz.
....
Get an SE duo so you don't have to worry about the speed of your crowd control, if you don't already have an SE box. If you got to 75 without making friends with the one crucial support class you need (unlike melees, that better build on having BDs, SwS, healers, buffers, tanks and other DDs in their party-making lists), is that really the game's fault?
LOL always your shell game in an argument you can't win in context. "Get an se" is your answer? Thus you retreat in admission that a Sorc is a half a class, worthless without an SE conjoined twin. How about the necro with an SE then? Or the Summoner with the Prophet? How about the Necro with the Necro? Oh sure, we can come up with all sorts of duo combinations because the FACT is when you talk about the class ITSELF the Sorc is on the short end of the stick and it's awfully hard to get that overpowered label to stick with the facts laid out. Again, some of you may have all sorts of expendable income to afford an account just to buff slave your main for an extra 15 bucks a month. That in no way addresses the INHERENT deficiencies of the class we are discussing.
As for making friends, are you someone's SE slave? Oh right didn't think so. Yes I often run into A grade SE's just hanging around waiting for a clan or Mage to pick them up.
ETA: Not just dwarves, not just dwarves... and yes, you, for all intents and purposes, can craft your own SoM. That there's a dwarf sitting there doing it hardly matters with the mechanics currently in place - that's like saying buffers are huge damage dealers and counting all the damage that the actual DDs wouldn't have done without them as the buffer's damage...
LOL A dwarf calling a sorc overpowered because a sorc will win in pvp is totally equivalent to a sorc calling a dwarf overpowered because a dwarf can craft and a sorc can't. There are roles that each class plays and people conveniently forget that when they compare skill against someone in a role outside their primary.
And that being said, using your own logic set, then Bighands is an overpowered nuker., Never mind that the game mechanics require an actual Sorc to do the nuking on his behalf... and an SE bish to keep it recharged.
A well played sorc can easily beat a necro or an SH. Lead off with cancel, and if you get semi lucky, you've won the fight.
The truth is, when it comes to nuker vs nuker, 9 out of 10 times, he who shoots first wins the battle, especially if the other guy hasn't seen you yet when you fire the first time, class doesn't make a **** bit of difference.
PvE wise, the SH is king, with the Sorc second, and the SpS in third. Weak BtM is better than no BtM. Having 2 nukes or 4 nukes makes no difference when you are sitting regenning MP, and every nuker in the world knows the best xp is mobs you can two shot.
Since everyone gets the use of herbs they really don't give anyone a huge edge.
In a smallish AOE group (couple of poles) give me the Sorc over the SPS anytime. Why? Because he should be able to squeeze in at least 2 or 3 BtM's while I'm out pulling.
As far as nukers being overpowered.
It's not so much that nukers are overpowered. It's that the buff system is heavily flawed. It's obvious to the casual observer - watch the olympiad, and you'll see the mages just repeatedly get crushed. They are by far the weakest group of classes in the olympiad.. lol even dwarves hope to fight nukers in the olympiad.
On the field though, where the real PvP takes place, a well buffed nuker will crush his enemies just as quickly as an archer, and many times faster. I have been 1, 2, and 3 shotted on many occasions, even though I have over 11k of HP, and I'm lvl 75.
The exact same thing goes for archers. It's not so much that archers are overpowered, it's that the buff system is broken.
With all that being said, there are plenty of defensive buffs, and if used properly, nuker damage can be severely negated. (which means the guys with cancel have a bit of an edge here...) On the other hand, it's extremely difficult to negate archer damage. So yes, archers are more overpowered than mage's.
The bottom line. PvP would be a little more fun if it lasted a little longer. No one, even the lowest HP classes should be a 1 shot, unless there is a huge level disparity.
The fix is simple. NCSoft needs to take a close look at the buff system and fix it. Which is what they are doing in Interlude with the changes to DoF and DW.
However... all things being equal, I don't see how a Sorc can hope to win against a necro. Necros and Sorcs have high powered nukes. Cancel will get rid of some buffs. Silence... Sorc=dead. Root... necro moves out of range, btm quick, gets out summon, Sorc=dead. Gloom... Sorc=dead. Summon already out in pvp=sorc dead.
Sorc vs SH, all things equal, Sorc gets the speed upper hand, but it's marginal. SH gets the raw damage upper hand, but it does tilt slightly in the sorcs favor unless.... Silence... sorc=dead.
Sorc vs sps, SpS should get one more spell in in time to take the sorc, but it could go either way.
Why would one of them have a more narrow radius than the other at the same cost/power? That does not match up with anything else NCSoft has ever done in this regard (and of course, if you're taking about hitting pobby groups, hitting 3 of the ... 4 by the way... expert nuker my ...), unless it has a lower spread of fail rate from center to the outside (I know my own AoE nuke kept failing on mobs too far away from the center).
But as I said - it's all last I checked from some basic experiments in the arena in C4. In either case, a nuker with chainable AoE nukes can still help in AoE, even if one of them doesn't hit all the mobs.
Of course, pobby groups are also mostly a matter of knowing which mob to hit to catch all four of them, but - ah, details.
Pam, why would you have to nuke extra fast because your MP management is an issue? It's the other way around - unless you do use BtM1 at every opportunity, although I serioulsy doubt that could outweigh the advantages of a NM set.
There are plenty of other sorcs EXPing in it - successfully.
However... all things being equal, I don't see how a Sorc can hope to win against a necro. Necros and Sorcs have high powered nukes. Cancel will get rid of some buffs. Silence... Sorc=dead. Root... necro moves out of range, btm quick, gets out summon, Sorc=dead. Gloom... Sorc=dead. Summon already out in pvp=sorc dead.
Sorc vs SH, all things equal, Sorc gets the speed upper hand, but it's marginal. SH gets the raw damage upper hand, but it does tilt slightly in the sorcs favor unless.... Silence... sorc=dead.
Sorc vs sps, SpS should get one more spell in in time to take the sorc, but it could go either way.
In a PvP where it's a showdown at noon, you are right on. If your cancel doesn't whack their empower I'd say you are right on the money.
Most PvP though doesn't take place that way. Mostly it's either ganking or mass PvP, or at least group on group, where the groups are looking for each other.
In a gank scenario, the mage who gets surprise will win most of the time. (assuming reasonable equal level)
In a group situation, I'm a bit unorthodox, but I prefer my sorc to focus on cancel, and then mix in some nukes or even decay/slow. Same thing with mass PvP.
Cancel is a gamble, but it has the potential to win you the fight. For example, in your necro fight above, if you take out his empower, his silence doesn't stand a chance, and you've cut the power of his nukes by more than a third. A simple slow or decay on the summon, and it's game over for that necro. The beauty is that your cancel has a much better landing rate than his silence. He gets gloom, but you get fire weakness.
SH vs Sorc - If cancel takes empower and/or acumen, dead SH. Same thing with the SPS, although he's liable to cancel you also.
I almost went Sorc when I chose my subclass, it was my second choice, but I went SH, because I want to level as fast as possible. We all agreed SH is PvE king because of BtM.
In addition to all that, remember that buffs are the single most important aspect to PvP. If you know you are fighting a necro, make sure you get Unholy resist, and any other mdef buffs you can. Same goes for the other resists buffs, songs, and dances.
That in a nutshell is why NCSoft really needs to look closely at the buff/debuff situation in the game.
Nukers are somewhat overpowered, but there is a pretty good selection of buffs that will gimp them. Archers are also somewhat overpowered, but there's not a whole lot of buffs to counter them. Melee's are just a joke for damage output mostly, but if they play their classes well, they can change the outcome of a fight very easily.
What's the damage difference between surrendered and resisting again?
If you usually hit for 1k (for easy calculation's sake, it shouldn't happen against people with warding/mbarrier up), they take 700 with resists up and 1300 with surrender - that's somewhere in the vicinity of 85% extra/less damage.
And people still don't take a live prophet to undo surrenders (or even bother buffing up with resists when going up against nukers), and you see plenty of nukers not starting with a surrender in PvP - sure, if you know you're up against someone who's not bothering with resists, that might make perfect sense, but otherwise... it seems like something worth crossing the distance for. I mean - 85% extra damage... if that's not a make-or-break, I've not seen it.
Then again, in PvE it's all down to finding an SE. A necro can go without one, but it's still like shooting yourself in the leg - although they can certainly do with a lower level 'empower doll' better than a sorc can.
And of course, once you have the support (and as every other class except three you are tied to finding support, and should be), the whole nightmare thing looks much more attractive again - if you can't two-shot things in DC, that is.
Pam, why would you have to nuke extra fast because your MP management is an issue? It's the other way around - unless you do use BtM1 at every opportunity, although I serioulsy doubt that could outweigh the advantages of a NM set.
There are plenty of other sorcs EXPing in it - successfully.
?
Where in the blue blazes do you get the idea that I believe, stated or implied that Sorcs need to nuke extra fast BECAUSE our mana management is an issue? (Another issue where a simple lack of experience allows for some totally u8nderstandable confusion.)
2 separate issues Maline.
A Sorc needs to kill fast because we have low mp, low defense, slow run speed and no way to hold a target (slow, yes, hold, no). So, a Sorc needs a high cast speed (DC bonus) to get our spells out as fast as possible. We need the mob dead before it reaches us.
Mana Management is its own issue. Our inability to sustain damage output over a reasonable amount of time makes us a liability to a party, and severely limits our ability to solo effectively. (In earlier chronicles we were able to at least do crowd control in groups, saving the healer's mana and improving overall efficiency in lieu of a mana-banked nuker such as the SH or Necro.)
2 different issues.
As a Sorc it is more important both in pvp and pve to get that spell off before the mob reaches me, or get that last spell off without being interrupted, than to get the 8% mana regen boost. Also, when soloing, the DC set's movement speed bonus helps, because we need to walk to get a few nukes out of a buff round. The faster we can walk, the better (poor even so) chance we have to reach that herb drop.
The Necro, whose skill sets are entirely different can make much better use out of the NM set than a Sorc can. There are several ways a Necro can keep mobs at a distance, aggro them away, recover health and mana and negate damage that are unavailable to the Sorc. In that respect a Necro has more armor/weapon options each with their own pros and cons to match varying playstyles and circumstances.
The sorc simply does not have that fexibility.
Can a Sorc xp in NM? Sure. However my personal experience in the matter is that a Sorc will do better in BOTH PvE and PvP with the DC set. I also know my share of Sorcs (we are a dying breed) that also prefer the DC over the NM.
In fact, I don't personally know any Sorc that prefers NM over DC. Leyanire plays a Sorc and may have a different opinion. That said even if there IS room to debate over which set is better for PvE, there is clearly one armor set for sorcs to be most effective in pvp: DC. Having only the ability to afford 1 set, that's what I'm wearing.
B2M1 = 22 mp for 133hp. Prominence at my level costs 69 mp. So let's say I am in FoD where I can 3-shot mobs... and we'll says it's Prom=Prom=AB. That's 173 mp for one mob. That requires 7.86 btms to recover lost mana. Let's say the clear mins knocks one off. btm would cost me 931 hp per mob. BtM1 is not an effective mana recovery system for an A grade sorc.
Now as for Bighands. If you are going to call my class overpowered, we have to be talking about the showdown at noon. If you want to get into all of the various possibilities of the mass pvp and gank squad, I could hypothetically counter any situation you conjure and that would just be a waste of time. I respect what you are saying and your PoV. I'm just trying to keep it real. And if you want to factor in buffs, then fine. Factor in all the best buffs for each mage 1v1 against each other and the Sorc still comes out on the bottom of the pile.
And there aren't many easier targets to gank than an xping sorc. Heck 5-6 mobs and my mana getting low. I get caught in that scenario... dead sorc. I'll be on walk, low on mana... sitting duck. Siege Scenario, planned pvp, Sorcs are nice to have in a party. Good range, good damage, pure DDs. That's why I chose a Nuker. I chose sorc in particular for group pve crowd control.
And that's my only beef; that my role outside of a siege or group pvp is shot. Aside from that, my job is to be a DD. That's what I do best, is all I do, and have a very limited capability therein. My class is more than balanced.