skilless pvp system...

General Discussion Started Last reply 36 posts
please put in new features in our pvp system so that players need to use more of their skill to win pvp.

now it's a matter of whose gears are better, who's higher lvl, whose side got more people and who's got lucky to interrupt your opponent's cast..... maybe melee class players need more skill coz some of their main skills are only doable from behind, but who plays melee when nukers are so powerful nowdays (yet another problem: imbalanced classes)?

why the heck there are all these "paralize" "slow" "blah blah blah" spells when people dont even need them in neither pvp or pve ?

(enemy in sight !! ) "F3 F3 F3 F3 F4 F3 F3"
(ahh..im dying, let's drink some pots) "F4 F4 F4 F5" ->"F3 F3 F3 F3...."
(***...I died) "gf"

L2 is a "open pvp" MMORPG, but the only skills you need to win in pvp are "quicker mouse clicking speed" "drinking the right potion at the right time" and "pray for luck" ?

L2 is a "open pvp" MMORPG, but the only skills you need to win in pvp are "quicker mouse clicking speed" "drinking the right potion at the right time" and "pray for luck" ?




right.

now get lvl 78, full buffs, and zerg some 4x'ers.

get it through your thick skull; no matter how good you are there is always someone better. drink all the potions you want, bsoe all you need to, get a +16 weapon for all i care, but DONT complain about pvp.

name me a game that requires skill to win at anything and i will give you all my ingame assets. nothing does. all you need are the tools. these are (in order) an overpowered weapon, uber armor, full buffs, and to catch your opponent when he is unawares.

apart from that, go to the arena. theres some young ones that think they can take big ones.
Geez you are really in a mood today.
I agree with Spud (not the pissy mood however, j/k)
As with anything, games etc., it will always be about gear and levels.
Paint me a picture of how skill should used to be better than what the game offers?
L2 does take a knowledge of your oppenent. I have been beaten numerous times by someone, but the tables turned once I screwed my head on straight. Then he could never beat me. I laugh at everyone that says someone is overpowered because they got their butt handed to them a few times. Sometimes you should lose because you out geared/leveld. Its just like an Orc to bring a knife to a gun fight ;-)
Heres a suggestion for you, combos based on clicking a skill (or group of skills) at the exact right time intervals.

More times you hit at the right timing the higher the damage each time until you screw it up.

Next question?

Geez you are really in a mood today.



Mark it as that time of the month ;)
name me a game that requires skill to win at anything and i will give you all my ingame assets. nothing does. all you need are the tools. these are (in order) an overpowered weapon, uber armor, full buffs, and to catch your opponent when he is unawares



Guild Wars, now give me your gear. k thx.
i no longer see it as pvp

it is now simply refered to as rolled.

no one knows what pvp is anymore as most pvp takes place in less then 1 min.

there used to be a time when pvp was based on more skill vice items you used or had.

of course that was before people had all these mega +++ weapons and armor...before boss jewels were farmed etc....

Its just like an Orc to bring a knife to a gun fight ;-)


actually. that doesnt sound like a bad idea >.<


name me a game that requires skill to win at anything and i will give you all my ingame assets. nothing does. all you need are the tools. these are (in order) an overpowered weapon, uber armor, full buffs, and to catch your opponent when he is unawares



Guild Wars, now give me your gear. k thx.

sorry, wrong answer. guild wars requires you to be an elementalist to win at everything.

next!
chess?
black always wins, as white always goes first.

next!



name me a game that requires skill to win at anything and i will give you all my ingame assets. nothing does. all you need are the tools. these are (in order) an overpowered weapon, uber armor, full buffs, and to catch your opponent when he is unawares



Guild Wars, now give me your gear. k thx.

sorry, wrong answer. guild wars requires you to be an elementalist to win at everything.

next!



LOL you must completely suck. Interrupt skills destroy Eles. I can name various skills to counter their casts, backfire, soul leech and can we say ranger? Obviously you dont know what your talking about. Like I said, I'll appreciate your gear. Thanks.

black always wins, as white always goes first.

next!



that sure as hell isn't true.

Tic-Tac-Toe. (needless to say, have you ever seen wargames?)

K ThX bye, have fun in WoW cause I win, you lose that one.
i dont understand ... i PWN in gw with my elementalist.

wtb proof black doesnt always win.
/checkmate
/white wins

OMG white won....

:P there is your proof :P

Tic-Tac-Toe. (needless to say, have you ever seen wargames?)


Dumbest movie ending evar.
guess they have the wrong people hired
HIRE demonraiser he knows how to balance stuff

i dont understand ... i PWN in gw with my elementalist.

wtb proof black doesnt always win.



Yeah probably pwn mobs. I'm talking about pvp man. I'm not sure what your playing but GW is the type of game that requires you to change your build because everything can have a counter for it. I'm not sure if you ever fought rangers, mesmers or anyone that is setup for being a anti-caster. Energy denials and interrupts completely annihilates elementalists, Unless of course you come with anti distracts but that would require you to give up a bit of dmg, thus making your dps a lot less.



name me a game that requires skill to win at anything and i will give you all my ingame assets. nothing does. all you need are the tools. these are (in order) an overpowered weapon, uber armor, full buffs, and to catch your opponent when he is unawares



Guild Wars, now give me your gear. k thx.

sorry, wrong answer. guild wars requires you to be an elementalist to win at everything.

next!


you are extremely wrong. anyclass can own anyother class if its played right.


black always wins, as white always goes first.

next!



there have been huge studies done about this
some of the best chess masters still debate the advantages but i always play black so black FTW




name me a game that requires skill to win at anything and i will give you all my ingame assets. nothing does. all you need are the tools. these are (in order) an overpowered weapon, uber armor, full buffs, and to catch your opponent when he is unawares



Guild Wars, now give me your gear. k thx.

sorry, wrong answer. guild wars requires you to be an elementalist to win at everything.

next!


you are extremely wrong. anyclass can own anyother class if its played right.

tool number 3: CATCH YOUR OPPONENT WHEN HE IS UNAWARES.
thusly, a bishop can pwn all with mana burn and trance.
look, i bolded it for you.

next!

name me a game that requires skill to win at anything and i will give you all my ingame assets. nothing does. all you need are the tools. these are (in order) an overpowered weapon, uber armor, full buffs, and to catch your opponent when he is unawares.



Any FPS... let's say Halo, or CounterStrike... though let's go old-skool and call it GoldenEye, greatest PvP FPS ever.

While having the golden gun, full armour and the drop on your opponent is certainly *helpful*, it is by no means a guarantee of success.

If, in GoldenEye, you have the Golden Gun (1-shot kills) and maxed-out armour, but don't have the skill-set to accurately turn in place, target and fire while your opponent dances around you and throws knives at your head... you're a dead double-oh seven.

The same applies for Halo. Your enemy can have an Overshield and a rocket launcher, you can be fresh-spawned with the Plasma Pistol. If your enemy does not know how to use the Launcher properly, you will be able to destroy the OS in 2-3 bursts, and then take him out with a well-placed blow to the back of the head, achieved simply by running around him.

This isn't "catching him unawares" this is purely, by skill, closing the gap and outmaneuvering him... even with the worst weapon (arguably) in the game in your fist.
all games require skill, at least mentally if not more. some require quick reflexes as well, the Quake series and fps games in general. and sorry but Goldeneye is not the best fps ever. mouse+keyboard greater than "gamepad" any day insomuch as what it allows in accuracy and movement. Quake 3 gets my vote as best fps ever. look for some videos/demos you might enjoy it.


name me a game that requires skill to win at anything and i will give you all my ingame assets. nothing does. all you need are the tools. these are (in order) an overpowered weapon, uber armor, full buffs, and to catch your opponent when he is unawares.



Any FPS... let's say Halo, or CounterStrike... though let's go old-skool and call it GoldenEye, greatest PvP FPS ever.

While having the golden gun , full armour and the drop on your opponent is certainly *helpful*, it is by no means a guarantee of success.

If, in GoldenEye, you have the Golden Gun (1-shot kills) and maxed-out armour, but don't have the skill-set to accurately turn in place, target and fire while your opponent dances around you and throws knives at your head... you're a dead double-oh seven.

The same applies for Halo. Your enemy can have an Overshield and a rocket launcher, you can be fresh-spawned with the Plasma Pistol. If your enemy does not know how to use the Launcher properly, you will be able to destroy the OS in 2-3 bursts, and then take him out with a well-placed blow to the back of the head, achieved simply by running around him.

This isn't "catching him unawares" this is purely, by skill, closing the gap and outmaneuvering him... even with the worst weapon (arguably) in the game in your fist.

no matter what you say, those pretty accurately describe the tools to beat someone at anything as stated my my post.

ty for the note of agreement.

btw, i usually use pp7 to kill in 007.
In a way, couldn't skill itself be considered a tool?
they will have you believe you need skill in a FPS if you say that.

no. skill is not a tool.

you dont need the golden gun to win, you just need full auto.

name me a game that requires skill to win at anything and i will give you all my ingame assets



Horse
google comes up with nothing.


name me a game that requires skill to win at anything and i will give you all my ingame assets



Horse



haha
i believe you owe him your stuff



name me a game that requires skill to win at anything and i will give you all my ingame assets



Horse



haha
i believe you owe him your stuff

once again, i cant argue his point nor my own without sufficient knowledge of the game.

wtb info on horse.
I never got into FPS, didn't play much of 007, or halo or anything. What I did get really into was a PC game that was released on PS2


mouse+keyboard greater than "gamepad" any day insomuch as what it allows in accuracy and movement



trust me thats all a matter of what your used to, even after going on 3 years of L2 I am teh suck with keyboard and mouse. Give me a pad anyday.

Anyway, the game was Tribes Aerial Assault. You had a few basic weapons and light, medium, or heavy armor, each let you carry more, the heavier the better the fire power. But your size made you slower and fly shorter distances. It had the same basic elements you find in an FPS, but it also had jet packs, and very complex terrain that you had to maneuver, you had to optimize your landing, "skiing" and your jumps to make the most of your airtime, since being on the ground made you a much easier target. You had to pay attention to your enemy, their trajectory, the terrain, your jet pack energy, all while taking shots at fast moving targets.

I don't want your stinking gear spud, but to claim that no game takes skills is laughable. The skill may not guarantee you success, your opponent may not need as much skill as you to win in some circumstances, you may find a way to win cheapyly yourself, but that does not indicate an absence of skill in the game.

Even L2 has skill, its just vastly overshadowed by lvl, class, gear and buffs. Even in the rare instance of a fair fight, some classes just have a natural advantage over others. But this doesn't mean we can't use skill, and ingenuity to try to overcome these disadvantages.

L2 has always been like this, it rewards those that are higher lvl, it rewards those that work harder to get the best gear, that organize, that work togeather. Sadly much of that hard work can be bought. And cheaters seem to stick togeather. So really you don't have much skill, and you don't really have honest hard work being rewarded. The (illigitimately)strong get stronger and the weak get weaker. Which makes skill count for less and less.

I never got into FPS, didn't play much of 007, or halo or anything. What I did get really into was a PC game that was released on PS2


mouse+keyboard greater than "gamepad" any day insomuch as what it allows in accuracy and movement



trust me thats all a matter of what your used to, even after going on 3 years of L2 I am teh suck with keyboard and mouse. Give me a pad anyday.

Anyway, the game was Tribes Aerial Assault. You had a few basic weapons and light, medium, or heavy armor, each let you carry more, the heavier the better the fire power. But your size made you slower and fly shorter distances. It had the same basic elements you find in an FPS, but it also had jet packs, and very complex terrain that you had to maneuver, you had to optimize your landing, "skiing" and your jumps to make the most of your airtime, since being on the ground made you a much easier target. You had to pay attention to your enemy, their trajectory, the terrain, your jet pack energy, all while taking shots at fast moving targets.

I don't want your stinking gear spud, but to claim that no game takes skills is laughable. The skill may not guarantee you success, your opponent may not need as much skill as you to win in some circumstances, you may find a way to win cheapyly yourself, but that does not indicate an absence of skill in the game.

Even L2 has skill, its just vastly overshadowed by lvl, class, gear and buffs. Even in the rare instance of a fair fight, some classes just have a natural advantage over others. But this doesn't mean we can't use skill, and ingenuity to try to overcome these disadvantages.

L2 has always been like this, it rewards those that are higher lvl, it rewards those that work harder to get the best gear, that organize, that work togeather. Sadly much of that hard work can be bought. And cheaters seem to stick togeather. So really you don't have much skill, and you don't really have honest hard work being rewarded. The (illigitimately)strong get stronger and the weak get weaker. Which makes skill count for less and less.

i do believe in airforce games that manouverability = win.

i bet in that game all the light armor/light gun/migh manouverability planes won most often.

if they didnt, they were caught noobishly unawares.

point C still stands. catch your opponent unawares = win. regardless of gear or levels or whatever. those (when you catch your opponent off guard) make it easier.

and as to horse, if youre referring to the game of basketball, no it doesnt take skill to win. i can always choose to loose. in that instance, you could win blindfolded.

to sum up; l2 as with every other game be it virtual or real takes no skill to win. while it is true that many variables are involved in every game, he who exploits the major factors (gear, levels, buffs, team) wins. this takes no skill. as to real games - every opponent has his price. make him choose to walk off the field, and youve got your win. this also takes no skill.

i bet in that game all the light armor/light gun/migh manouverability planes won most often.



it was an FPS with jetpacks not an airforce game. And each armor size had its strength and weaknesses, manuverability, arsenal, flying time, etc. Neither lights nor heavys had any distinct advantage. They actually balanced it all quite well.

But anyway,

Skill:
2 a : the ability to use one's knowledge effectively and readily in execution or performance b : dexterity or coordination especially in the execution of learned physical tasks
3 : a learned power of doing something competently : a developed aptitude or ability <language skills>

So basicaly your argument is that there is no knowlege or task to be obtained from any game on earth. There is nothing to practice or train at. The idiots who spend hours a day practicing the guitar, or a sport, or for in our case a game, are wasting their time. The fact that (were he alive) I could stab Bruce Lee in his sleep, is evidence that there is no such thing as skill in martial arts.

I didn't give this as an example earlier, mainly because the game has severe balance issues. But I used to play in Marvel vs. Capcom2 tournaments. The game wasn't hugely popular, mainly do to the huge learning curve and the overly flashy and enless attack chains. It was fast, the combos were absurdly long, and there were (as with any fighting game) an endless amount of nuances to grasp. And beyond the simple knowlege of what combos did the most dmg, and how to counter certain attacks, etc. You had to actually be able to physicaly perform extrordinarily fast button chains, and joystick movements to be proficient. I spent hours and hours a day trying to learn some of them (some that I was not even able to learn in the long run). And beyond learning them, they have to be so natural to you, that you can reproduce them without hesitation in the appropriate situation.

The problem was that there were ultimate characters, a lot of cheesy moves, and such. But someone who had never played before, or who was relatively new could not have chosen those overpowered characters and won simply by virtue of having strong characters. The characters were only overpowered due to their POTENTIAL. You had to develope your skills a LOT to unleash that potential.

Yeah some newb could walk up to me in the arcade and offer me a suitcase of money to lose to him. And he could technicaly "win" with little or no skill. But I'm not sure what you think that proves. He circumnavigated an actual fight. And why would he do something like that, why waste RL money to win a game? Because he doesnt have the skill to to beat me at an even match.

The problem with L2 is that the overpowered characters are often those with the least complexity. So some one can basicaly step right in cheat his way to the top, and with no actually training or any advanced knowlege or skill, he can win ACTUAL fights consistantly. He doesn't have to find a loophole, or roundabout way. He doesn't have to catch anyone sleeping, or bribe, or anything like that. In this game LvL, gear, and buffs are perfectly acceptable and extremely potent substitutes for skill.

And I believe that was the OPs point.
finally, someone that concurs.

finally, someone that concurs.



I think I see where you are going, I thought maybe you were just trying to be difficult for your own amusement. But I do see what you mean. Where there is a will there is a way. Lie, cheat, steal, use steroids, bride, etc. Beauty competitions can be won by sleeping with the judges, ice skating competitions can be won by having your wife/husband busting your opponents knee cap. There is no game where skill is paramount, where there are no outside interuptions, lag, cheating, or whatever. There is no pure, 100%fair game. Every game has the chance to be exploited, or abused. So on and so forth. So skill is not at all a guarantee.

But really thats a given, no one expects that to ever not be the case. That doesn't negate skill, it doesn't mean that skill isn't a major contributor to vitory in most games. And it is certainly not a reason to throw up our hands and say it!" and let the imbalances and exploits in the game go unchecked. There are tons of games that are balanced enough to be enjoyed, and dominated by skillful people. There are tons of games where skillful people losing to non-skilled people is a rarity, or at best just isn't very likely. People who play L2 legitely aren't asking for a perfect game, a 100% legit game, a game where skill trumps every other factor. we know that is well out of our grasp as well as most gamers. I think most of us would just be happy with some very basic class balance, and maybe some adjustment to buffs, and endgame skill. But thats a whole other can of worms.