Nukers ARE over-powered. Archers ARE over-powered. The only people who think they are not are people who play them. Almost everyone plays them because they are the most powerful. Which means they are over-powered. Just deal and give up saying they are not you say oh well run speed is crap. Well it doesnt matter what your run speed is because you just 2 shot everyone. Ok good now lets talk abouy ways to fix the over poweredniss. If you are here to defend and say they are not over-powered go away i or anyone else here to discuss the over-poweredniss does not care in the least bit.
All i can say is lower crit probability and lower acuman rate. Also to get rid of focus on bows.
so are you saying you should nerf a class 1-80 because at lvl 80 they are overpowered?
Sounds like cry cry imho.
Plus FYI classes already have answers to nukers. ITs called resist buffs. they put them in game to make nukers weaker. It's your choice to use them or not.
please, i sayed do not post unless you are going to contribute not bash! Wow people learn to read and no they own 1-80 and dur****le id rather have other buffs not a waste of 16 slots for 1 type of nuker.
Once again i said please do not post unless its to help the i hate nukers so nerf them club. Nukers are only wanted in raids. Nukers ar eonly wanted in grps. Nukers are the only pvp owners in sieges besides archers. Nukers/Archers>ALL have you not seen it are you lvl 2 and dont see it are you a [censored]?
noone is taking you seriously when you just get mad at others.
now then. it is true that nukers are overpowered in pvp. but it's more often than not in 1 on 1. has anyone tried getting 3 or 4 people to take on one nuker recently? they can be taken down, you just have to know how.
I don't play a nuker, and i dont mind they're awesome skills.
A suggestion to make them weaker? give healers TONS more m.def and silence (doesnt mater if nukers keep silence, but give it to healers too)
about archers or any class you may be fighting, it's all about luck, equipment, and knowing your own class. if you're playing something that isnt suppose to kill archers, dont complain (please)
i found out what missed! CP pots! lol if you can buy them, go for it and hope your enemy doesnt have them
calm down!!!
i have yet to see any game in which a good mage could not take any other class in a 1 on 1. unless by luck. It's L2 life, i've gotten used to it, maybe you should too, cuz you're starting to get pretty annoying
Alright a few points.
1. This is a public forum telling people not to post because you aren't bright enough to make a good suggestion will just get you flamed as evidenced by this thread.
2. Nukers are strong but far from the least balanced class type in the game. Nothing you suggest will actually solve this so instead you just rant and rave without saying anything constructive.
3. Your signature is non-sensical but tries sound intelligent but realy just makes you look stupid much like the actual posts.
I hate people that say, "Since you're such a low level, you can't possibly know anything about this game, so I will disregard anything you say. I might listen if you go grind more, n00b."
It ****** me off. I'm not a high level, yet in my clan I am one of the more knowlegeable people. I just don't see how high level makes you smarter.
It just means you've experienced a lot more. Usually.
Usually is right. Makes me wonder when someone buys an account with lvl 76+ character then finds out that said character gets his butt handed to him by another class. I would be ****** too.
Anyhow, pure nukers are not overpowered. Sure they beat some classes handidly, but My DA of same level beats nukers 90% of time.
I hate people that say, "Since you're such a low level, you can't possibly know anything about this game, so I will disregard anything you say. I might listen if you go grind more, n00b."
It ****** me off. I'm not a high level, yet in my clan I am one of the more knowlegeable people. I just don't see how high level makes you smarter.
lol are you kidding me? So you think that your level 40 and you can talk about what people have experienced at level 75+?
Maybe when you go to an interview for a job in real life, you go up to your boss to be and tell him everything you know MORE than what he already knows how to do? yes? Bet you get your [censored]handed to you everytime.
Real life, unlike this game, does not play out predictably. Trying to compare the depth and complexity of the two (which are the reason you need experience in real life to begin with) is laughable at best.
No, really - a higher level doesn't make people smarter about their class. Been proven time and again.
lol maybe if your a higher level through ebay. But if someone actually played their class to 75+, they'll know a hell of a lot more than any level 40, no matter what he/she thinks. Maybe you should try and get there first yes?
I know I play my classes well, as I usually walk away from groups with two or three friend-invites followed up by further party invites - not really easy to do on an EE/PP.
No, sorry. The game is not so complex that you can't get to 75 being a complete **** at your class ... or are you going to claim that grinding requires some sort of massive amounts of skill now?
And people still fail to do simple things like buffing the right class the right things (yes, let's give someone melee buffs because they carry a mage dagger...), buffing correct situational buffs, pulling with CC, using sleep correctly, stepping away from rooted mobs - or for that matter deciding whether or not CC is worth the MP - assisting correctly, maintaining pace, singing/dancing in time, singing/dancing the correct (amount) of songs...
PS: I'm not saying Nurama has a clue. I'm just saying level doesn't mean you know anything, it just means you had a lot of time and patience to sit on your butt. =)
I'm sure people with made up minds like yours will believe whatever you want, no matter otherwise.
When you actually reach 75+, THEN you'll be worthy of my time and everyone else who made it there. Not to mention, worth listening to for those of us who actually know what it takes to get there.
And *I* play casually and have reached it there with a job and a family. Trust me its definitely a time commitment AND you defintely better know how to play your class with all the PvP opportunities you get at that level.
oh, and for those of us who actually made it there legitimately, we know who got there cheating. Its painfully obvious who put in their time and who didn't.
So, all the level 75 buffers who don't know who gets what, who can't stagger when they need to, who don't know how to chain a heal etc. ebayed their toons?
Nice generelisation.
Also note that you do, indeed, not have to have had plenty of PvP to get to 75 legit - but that, once again, only shows how much a level 75 has to know to have gotten there.
er thought we were talking about nukers? When did healers enter the picture? As for why those that are level 75 healers don't know what they are doing?
1. Because they ebayed and dont know a heal spell to a buff spell?
2. They are piss poor tired and just stopped caring?
3. They are alt accounts that someone is secretly 2-boxing?
4. They are [censored] and deliberately playing around to screw everyone's enjoyment? (and yes you'd be surprised how many people act like [censored] who actually think they are being "entertaining".
So yes, those are the various reason I put out. I think a healer/buffer who reached 75+ legitimately knows **** well, exactly, what he/she is doing. You definitely don't get to that level as a healer/buffer if you don't, unless you fall under the reasons I listed above.
As for not participating in PvP while getting to 75? Sure one never has to participate..just stand there and get PK'd. Looks ******ed when you let a level 6x pk a level 7x though or anyone lower than you for that matter. Theres a lot you can loose in regards to respect especially if your in a clan.
*shrug* but yes you can reach 75 without ever participating in PvP. BUT, that only shows that person is a novice when participating in PvP. Since he PvE for the last 75+ levels I'm sure he knows a hell of a lot more about it than someone at 4x in regards to PvE. Its only logical after all, which makes your point of view, sorry to say it, absolutely pointless?
I was going on about exactly the words that were posted that I quoted. That's what those quotes are for.
1. Of course... as I said, anyone who doesn't know how to play their class must have ebayed - right?
2. How long do you have to be tired to avoid making what - three buff macros?
3. Two-boxing != doesn't know how to play the class. It's not an excuse.
4. A given -b ut then, who'd invite this kind of person along more than once?
You do get that level though - for example if you're someone's girlfriend or wife or good RL friend or whatnot, if you're in a casual clan, if you're a C3 SE etc.
There are plenty of neutral clans that have gotten to high levels at a decent pace, knowing their classes, without deciding to open the can of worms that is a clan war - some people like those worms, others don't. An occassional PvP encounter doesn't force you to learn how to play your class, and being in a neutral clan will mostly keep you out of it on most servers.
No matter what class you are - if you don't have to fear for a pickup group (i.e. if you're in a clan), you can not be forced to learn to play your class on the way to 75. Plenty of people have no interest in playing well at all - others start and try to improve on every hunt.
As I said, Lineage II PvE is not so complex and challenging until 75 (maybe thereafter if you want to go for 'the good spots', but even then it's pretty much optional) that you are forced to learn anything. Doing something over and over all on its own won't help you improve at it - it's just like drawing. If you are not trying to look for your mistakes and remove them, they will not disappear on their own. The same goes for grinding, where it is even worse since it's a simpler task.
The mere fact that you think someone would actually play to level 75+ and not know how to play their class after spending that much time and putting that much time committment into the game is absurd, not to mention sadistic.
Like I said, if you haven't reached level 75+ you really have no clue whatsoever on how much of a time commitment that involves...and then to say that those people who actually committed that much time to reach those levels and not know how to play their class? That is an oxymoron and represents a seriously skewed point of view.
Who the hell would commit to getting to level 75+ and not know how to play? You are arguing a losing point. It was lost when you uttered that sentence.
Like I said before, if you really want to know what it takes to be 75+ get there first and then you won't be so eager to comment on how much a person knows at that level. It takes a hell of a commitment from a legitimate player to reach that level and beyond and anyone who reached that level and don't know about the game is truly an idiot and a fool.
Thats why your comment begs this question. Why would ANYBODY reach 75+ just to find out he/she doesn't know how to play? Is this really what you believe? Because I tell you now, everyone that has reached level 75+ legitimately is wondering if your mentally unstable? Sorry but thats exactly what I'm thinking now.
How is it sadistic that some people don't play this game to pinch numbers? It happens. And even if they're slow, they get to 75 eventually - enough time has passed for this. I'm sorry if you have trouble accepting others playstyles, but those are the facts.
Yes, I know how much time is required - it's just numbers, so you can stop thinking it's special to have done it yourself. Yes, it's a huge time commitment. No, not everyone is unwilling to make it, and more importantly, not everyone thinks they should be 'forced to play a way they don't like' (that's the most common I hear from people I think don't play well).
Time commitment does not mean time spent learning, it is not an oxymoron at all. Time commitment only means time spent grinding, and that, in turn, does not neccessarily mean time spent improving how to play your class.
People who play with friends, people who play just to have fun, people who think they play well when they don't - all these people can level up without learning the first thing without a problem at all. No, sorry - there are plenty people who are 75+ and don't know a thing, that's an undeniable fact, and not all of those have bought their characters.
Yes, it takes a huge commitment. No part of that commitment is 'learning to play really well'. No part of that commitment involves knowledge. It's all time. Yeah, it's a big thing. But it doesn't involve learning.
No, only you are wondering this - do you seroiusly not know any 75+ that has ever made you whince and wonder 'how the hell did nobody tell this idiot off in all the time they have been playing?' I guess maybe you are very 'sheltered' in a clan that grinds hardcore. I've been mostly in PuGs with such high people - and I can only confirm: you are simply flat out wrong.
PS: Thanks josch. :) Much more concisely put than I could.
oh please and your saying pressing a button on a macro bar takes skill to do? please.
If you spent the time to grind, you know how your macro bar or function keys on yor keyboard works. If you played a class to level 75+ you have a decent idea about what it takes to kill x mobs at a decent xp rate or you would have been burnt out on this game a looong time ago.
Also, can anyone who actually reached level 75+ actually comment? It would be more credible.
How is it sadistic that some people don't play this game to pinch numbers? It happens. And even if they're slow, they get to 75 eventually - enough time has passed for this. I'm sorry if you have trouble accepting others playstyles, but those are the facts.
Yes, I know how much time is required - it's just numbers, so you can stop thinking it's special to have done it yourself. Yes, it's a huge time commitment. No, not everyone is unwilling to make it, and more importantly, not everyone thinks they should be 'forced to play a way they don't like' (that's the most common I hear from people I think don't play well).
Time commitment does not mean time spent learning, it is not an oxymoron at all. Time commitment only means time spent grinding, and that, in turn, does not neccessarily mean time spent improving how to play your class.
People who play with friends, people who play just to have fun, people who think they play well when they don't - all these people can level up without learning the first thing without a problem at all. No, sorry - there are plenty people who are 75+ and don't know a thing, that's an undeniable fact, and not all of those have bought their characters.
Yes, it takes a huge commitment. No part of that commitment is 'learning to play really well'. No part of that commitment involves knowledge. It's all time. Yeah, it's a big thing. But it doesn't involve learning.
No, only you are wondering this - do you seroiusly not know any 75+ that has ever made you whince and wonder 'how the hell did nobody tell this idiot off in all the time they have been playing?' I guess maybe you are very 'sheltered' in a clan that grinds hardcore. I've been mostly in PuGs with such high people - and I can only confirm: you are simply flat out wrong.
PS: Thanks josch. :) Much more concisely put than I could.
[censored]. Your actually going to argue that if someone commits that much time into a game that he/she has no clue what he/she is doing after reaching and playing for over 75+ levels?
Are you two mentally sane?
oh and if there are so many people that *YOU* know of that are level 75+ and don't know how to play their characters, why don't you actually list some yes? I'm sure the level 75+ community would have a good laugh at that. I know I would.
Skill is loosely speaking in the case of L2 - lack of idiocy would be more accurate. But precisely because even a badly played character usually 'suffices' so many people can get so high without knowing jack about their class.
Do you know the MP efficiency break point on multitarget spells? Do you know where the aggro radius is on your radar?
Just yesterday a 73 (ok, not quite 75 yet... but still big enough) bounty hunter told me to my face that it's impossible to manor and spoil at the same time.
Goes to show, doesn't it?
ETA: Are you really narrow-minded? Of course there are people like that... I've partied with some. =) How about that BD who thought that +DEXing was more DPS for her than +STR (also 70+, and by now subclassed with certainty), or that DC light was better armour for her than tallum heavy?
who the hell cares about how much *knowledge* you know. Knowledge does not equal skill. You may know a lot of "book" knowledge but when it comes to application, you sure don't sound like you have much experience with it. Makes me think that your one of those types that do nothing much but talk.
Narrow mindedness comes from something you don't know and haven't experienced and you pre-judge it. I am in that level range and qualified to speak of it. You certainly are not. How would you know how much a level 75+ person knows when your hardly even in range?
Granted, you may know more *book* knowledge since you seem to know irrelevant information that really doesnt apply or of interest to many who play the game; but that doesnt mean a player who is ignorant of some ingame mechanics aren't skilled as a player of his/her class.
Er as for your example of the dwarf, are you a ****? Thats called book knowledge, which you seem to boast about in plenty self-possessed arrogance. That has nothing to do with how to play properly or how that dwarf plays in a group or even his skillset. Shows me he never tried to manor and spoil at the same time. That doesn't tell me the dwarf didn't know how to play his class.
You really should stop pre-judging people so hastily.
oh please and your saying pressing a button on a macro bar takes skill to do? please.
If you spent the time to grind, you know how your macro bar or function keys on yor keyboard works. If you played a class to level 75+ you have a decent idea about what it takes to kill x mobs at a decent xp rate or you would have been burnt out on this game a looong time ago.
Now compare that to the skill required to - for example - take on a whole squad of people ("mobs" or "PCs", depending if they're AI-controlled or not) with tanks, machine guns, defensive positions set up and so on solo in a simulation game like Operation Flashpoint - and win.
I've seen people do it. I'm way more impressed by the skill expressed in 15 minutes of their play than with the whole skill of all heroes combined on any single L2 server.
oh please and your saying pressing a button on a macro bar takes skill to do? please.
If you spent the time to grind, you know how your macro bar or function keys on yor keyboard works. If you played a class to level 75+ you have a decent idea about what it takes to kill x mobs at a decent xp rate or you would have been burnt out on this game a looong time ago.
Now compare that to the skill required to - for example - take on a whole squad of people ("mobs" or "PCs", depending if they're AI-controlled or not) with tanks, machine guns, defensive positions set up and so on solo in a simulation game like Operation Flashpoint - and win.
I've seen people do it. I'm way more impressed by the skill expressed in 15 minutes of their play than with the whole skill of all heroes combined on any single L2 server.
and what does your example have to do with a player who have committed time to play up to level 75+? Your example there and the skillset required to play Lineage 2 is the same. You press fingers to the keyboard and you train your hands to make a certain set of typing motions to play the game optimally.
Exactly what skills are you referring to that is different? Its still typing on the keyboard yes? Don't delude yourself.
As for what your talking about here and MalineII is talking about, that is totally different. Your actually talking about what I"m talking about...but apparently MalineII is talking bout *book* knowledge.
Lineage II is all about knowledge though - the game is slow-paced enough to 1:1 apply pretty much everything there is to know. It doesn't take 'skill' to wait until 3 bars fall before you start bothering with grup heal, it doesn't take 'skill' to know the range of your AoEs and when to use them, it doesn't take 'skill' to read your skill list and realise that if you're going to AoE, you should at least learn all your AoE skills.
Playing your class well is almost certainly a direct reflection of how much you know about it, provided of course you are awake, well and undistracted. (I play a horrible healer at 7 in the morning too.)
No, the dwarf is actually a good player - I am very fond of her, and she does play well. But she did not know a central point of her class. And yes, making money while hunting is what the BH is all aobut - maximising that is a given.
Talking about 'skill' in L2 as something motorical is more than a little weird - unless you mean managing to click a fast-moving target.
PS: I have seen those people who do not play their class well and are 75+, that's hardly a prejudice. =P
PPS: Most games require 'skill' in needing fast and accurate reactions. The fastest reaction required in L2 is either an interrupt (pretty much tank/healer business only) and the readjustment to PvP suddenly happening (i.e. finding your enemy, deciding whether to stay or not, and taking first steps), the most accurate is trying to target a moving tyrant or dagger. Neither can be compared to the level of skill required to play, say, an FPS.
then you should have not stated "played their class well" but rather "don't know everything about their class". In my opinion a person that has reached level 75+ legitimately earns much more respect from me than someone who talks about being level 75+ and commenting on it.
Do you know why?
Because applicaiton is greater than talk. That's really all there is to it.
Exactly what skills are you referring to that is different? Its still typing on the keyboard yes?
Strategy, tactics, resource management, utilisation of terrain.
Shows how much you know. Without those, you're dead the second the enemy spots you in OFP - killed by a sniper half a kilometre away.
lol and how does all those points you just typed here not apply also in Lineage 2? I still don't see your point.
Yes there are different game mechanics being played on both games but its just learning enough of it to win isn't it? 2 different game environments with 2 different game mechanics rules.
For example just because your one of the best gamers at Quake or this game you mention here...doesn't make you a good gamer in Lineage 2. Hell you could be the king in quake and be n00b next door in Lineage 2.
Knowing a class thoroughly is a prerequisite for playing it well. But of course you're level 75+ - sot hat doesn't apply to you?
Actually yes it is..but you don't have to know everything about the game to play *your* specific class well. You just need to be an expert on what your avatar/character can do. If you can manage with what you've been given, you can normally play *your* character well and adapt to the other elements of the game environment.
Complexity and depth of other games are so much higher than L2's that it makes a major difference in how you should view them.
In other games, it's not just a matter of time commitment and some attention to learn to play your class well. It takes some actual physical prerequisites in your reaction times and such.
PS: Didn't say you have to know everything - although knowing much has only been helpful thus far. Not having to know about other classes is pretty much only true if you don't PvP, and of course if you're a DD. A tank, healer or support class should knwo the other classes in their group well enough to adjust their decisions based on that. Preferably not just the characters, but the players.
(I.e.: If that -9CON TH is at 50%, I **** well better heal him with a point heal - but no need to spam it, one will fill him back up. If that dwarf is at 95% HP, I can push a trickle heal on her already and won't waste any MP.)
Complexity and depth of other games are so much higher than L2's that it makes a major difference in how you should view them.
In other games, it's not just a matter of time commitment and some attention to learn to play your class well. It takes some actual physical prerequisites in your reaction times and such.
And here we are again making a full round robin yes? Isn't this what you argued for when we were talking about WoW in that other thread, where I said Lineage 2 is a superior game?
You came back with this same lackadazical argument and I responded this way. If you don't like Lineage 2 and feel that other games require more skills to play, why are you here playing this game?
You still haven't answered it and I'm still amazed you play a game you seem to hate so much?
Exactly what skills are you referring to that is different? Its still typing on the keyboard yes?
Strategy, tactics, resource management, utilisation of terrain.
Shows how much you know. Without those, you're dead the second the enemy spots you in OFP - killed by a sniper half a kilometre away.
lol and how does all those points you just typed here not apply also in Lineage 2? I still don't see your point.
That's exactly my point. Thanks for proving it.
In Lineage 2, you don't need to bother with skills like you would in a real skill-based game, for example OFP.
er what? Hmm I don't really know how to respond to a post like this. You've just responded irrationally, because I wrote how your points apply the same in Lineage 2 and yet you say I proved your point?!
Is this some kind of weird reverse psychology in a blind attempt to confuse people? If it is, its certainly working.
When I chose a gmae to play - do I necessairly want something that requires skill? Am I here to grow my self-esteem by beating someone else's character? If I want to spend the time and effort to build skill at something, you can assume to see me redecorating rooms, learning to fix basic things on a car, working on my cooking or gardening or whatever... something that is, unlike a game or sport, worth the effort. (Not all things I can do - all thigns I want to learn if I find the energy.)
I like not having to spend weeks, months getting halfway good at this game.
That doesn't make it the complex, well-balanced ultimum of everything.
It just means it has the prettiest elf men around, and the nicest roleplayers.
Do you think the game has to be perfect for me to enjoy it? No. I like the game, I enjoy it, even if it's certainly not the best. It has some concepts that I really like, and moreover, it is lacking in concepts that piss me off (which can't be said for most other games).
er what? Hmm I don't really know how to respond to a post like this. You've just responded irrationally, because I wrote how your points apply the same in Lineage 2 and yet you say I proved your point?!
Let's clear it up somewhat for you.
First, you say (coming from L2), that ...
Your example there and the skillset required to play Lineage 2 is the same. You press fingers to the keyboard and you train your hands to make a certain set of typing motions to play the game optimally.
Exactly what skills are you referring to that is different? Its still typing on the keyboard yes?
Well, the skill set required to play OFP is a little different than in L2 - it's mainly tactics, with all it encompasses. Training your hands to be fast will help you nothing if you don't have any idea what your current tactical situation is, and how to change it so you achieve your goal while at the same time denying the enemy their goals. In the end, it's a game where thinking - the actual skill of the player - is way more important, and comes before, acting.
Having wrote that, you make a 180 degrees turn and write ...
lol and how does all those points you just typed here not apply also in Lineage 2? I still don't see your point.
No, you don't get my point. Thanks for proving it, though.
And the point is: L2 is a time sink. Other games require skill. And you're confusing the two.
I don't bash L2 all that much - just saying 'something else might be just as well' is hardly a critique. Or are all women except your girlfriend complete *****es?
I believe I could enjoy the game more if it were balanced, I'd be interested in PvP more if it were slow enough to give all classes a chance, and I don't think dwarves have enough blingbling - that are my main three concerns with the game.
I have talked plenty about what I like about it - I think it has some of the best lore, it has some of the nicest 'relaxing' PvEs, it has some fo the best looks, some of the best music etc. Not my fault you usually snoop around bashy threads?
er what? Hmm I don't really know how to respond to a post like this. You've just responded irrationally, because I wrote how your points apply the same in Lineage 2 and yet you say I proved your point?!
Let's clear it up somewhat for you.
First, you say (coming from L2), that ...
Your example there and the skillset required to play Lineage 2 is the same. You press fingers to the keyboard and you train your hands to make a certain set of typing motions to play the game optimally.
Exactly what skills are you referring to that is different? Its still typing on the keyboard yes?
Well, the skill set required to play OFP is a little different than in L2 - it's mainly tactics, with all it encompasses. Training your hands to be fast will help you nothing if you don't have any idea what your current tactical situation is, and how to change it so you achieve your goal while at the same time denying the enemy their goals. In the end, it's a game where thinking - the actual skill of the player - is way more important, and comes before, acting.
Having wrote that, you make a 180 degrees turn and write ...
lol and how does all those points you just typed here not apply also in Lineage 2? I still don't see your point.
No, you don't get my point. Thanks for proving it, though.
And the point is: L2 is a time sink. Other games require skill. And you're confusing the two.
Ok first you agreed with me that both games require hammering at the keyboard to make motions to play yes?
Then you specified the difference saying that it requires skill to play this other game because it requires strategy and knowhow of the game to win yes?
Then I asked how that same knowledge of strategy and knowhow not apply in Lineage 2 also?
Which you responded with, "you proved my point" and I was like "huh?" yes?
Exactly what point did you prove? You just agreed with everything I said and concurred with what you said about strategy in Lineage 2 as well?
I don't bash L2 all that much - just saying 'something else might be just as well' is hardly a critique. Or are all women except your girlfriend complete *****es?
I believe I could enjoy the game more if it were balanced, I'd be interested in PvP more if it were slow enough to give all classes a chance, and I don't think dwarves have enough blingbling - that are my main three concerns with the game.
I have talked plenty about what I like about it - I think it has some of the best lore, it has some of the nicest 'relaxing' PvEs, it has some fo the best looks, some of the best music etc. Not my fault you usually snoop around bashy threads?
lol I guess bashy threads are more interesting to read and comment on...heh.
After all what else is there to do at work when your bored or at home late at night and you need a break from the late hour work grind!
In my opinion a person that has reached level 75+ legitimately earns much more respect from me than someone who talks about being level 75+ and commenting on it.
And a person, who is just spending one hour in their whole gamtime, to explain a newbie something, that they asked for, deserves much more respect (IMO) than leveling to lvl 75 or 80 or gaining hero.
Social Skills is where the respect come from. Leveling just takes time and time and time.
My BH being lvl 60 does not automatically make me a better player than any BH, who is 40. Likewise, I do not see a lvl 75 BH as automatically being a better player than I am.
Level is only a sign of time at your hands and availability of groups that work out well. You got more time, you got more levels. If you are a real smart and good player, you level faster, but in the end, the skill needed to reach lvl 75 could easily be trained to a monkey... just make the keys a bit larger.
er no. Its not about more time. Its about commitment and the discipline that is required to get to that level of commitment. Usually someone who gains that much levels and sticks with a game that long SHOWS that that person has a high regard for the game and basically "loves it" or why would he/she be playing it? That's my logic anyway.
Usually also, in my experience, people who have reached max levels are those people who usually give back to the community because they have a respect for the game and understand that respect and what it took to achieve it.
Ok first you agreed with me that both games require hammering at the keyboard to make motions to play yes?
No. There's two different modes of "require" at work here. In both games, you need a keyboard (and preferably a mouse, although that's optional in OFP) and some method to use it and the knowledge what key does what. In L2, that's all you need. In OFP, without further knowledge, it'll just get you killed, lost or both.
Then you specified the difference saying that it requires skill to play this other game because it requires strategy and knowhow of the game to win yes?
No, it doesn't require strategy and know-how of the game. It's a simulation. Tactics and your basic real-life military training (which includes stuff like the ability to read maps, for example) will suffice. L2 doesn't require any of that, of course.
Then I asked how that same knowledge of strategy and knowhow not apply in Lineage 2 also?
No. You first said "it's just hammering on the keyboard", than withdrawn that statement.
Which you responded with, "you proved my point" and I was like "huh?" yes?
Exactly what point did you prove?
That you do not understand the difference between a skill-based game and a time sink. :)
You see thats a sadistic point of view. Its not very realistic either. I believe that if you love what you do, your usually going to be really good at it, because you are devoted to it.
I don't understand how hard work and effort would not get rewarded, unless its a gift principle..which is another topic.
Also, if you love to do something and you don't get insight about it...I would call that false love. Loving something and doing it because you love it will give you the greatest insight of all.
Ok first you agreed with me that both games require hammering at the keyboard to make motions to play yes?
No. There's two different modes of "require" at work here. In both games, you need a keyboard (and preferably a mouse, although that's optional in OFP) and some method to use it and the knowledge what key does what. In L2, that's all you need. In OFP, without further knowledge, it'll just get you killed, lost or both.
Then you specified the difference saying that it requires skill to play this other game because it requires strategy and knowhow of the game to win yes?
No, it doesn't require strategy and know-how of the game. It's a simulation. Tactics and your basic real-life military training (which includes stuff like the ability to read maps, for example) will suffice. L2 doesn't require any of that, of course.
Then I asked how that same knowledge of strategy and knowhow not apply in Lineage 2 also?
No. You first said "it's just hammering on the keyboard", than withdrawn that statement.
Which you responded with, "you proved my point" and I was like "huh?" yes?
Exactly what point did you prove?
That you do not understand the difference between a skill-based game and a time sink. :)
And may I ask who made you the arbitor of what game is a "time-sink" and what game is "strategy" worthy?
I said both Lineage 2 and this other game you speak of require different sets of "skills" to play. You might believe this other game you speak of requires high degrees of skills to play, but to others it might be a piece of crap. *shrugs* its all about tastes.
Lineage 2 definitely requires strategy to play. Thats why I said the same principles you applied to your simulation game applies to Lineage 2. Talk to anyone who ever planned a large castle siege or a epic mob boss raid and I'd like to hear or see their reaction when you tell them its a utter skill-less excersice. You'll be surprised exactly how much strategy IS required to pull something like that off.
In fact I think it takes a hell of a lot more skill to play with other people than to play a simulation all by your lonely self. You see, playing with other people requires interaction and you definitely need skills to play with another human being that can out-think you.
Time and commitment go hand in hand. I am comitting about 80% of my free time to Lineage2 in one way or another. Either playing the game, or working for the community on the german fansite. This commitment to the game is not reflected in the level of any of my chars. I like to play different chars. Instead of a single char in the 70s, I got a couple chars of lvl 48-60. Does that make me a less comitted player or a less valuable player ? I think not.
If I had more time to spare (not having to work for example), I would have more time to comit to the game I like and as such, I would naturally have a higher level.
Also I have yet to see the top notch of players to give back anything to the game. As I see it, they are rather killing 2 more mobs or enemies, than getting out of their way and explain something to a new player. The ammount of flame, a real newbie gets, when they ask what the "high honors" deem to be basic knowledge, is extreme. To me, it seems, that many high level players tend to forget, that at one point in the past, they were lvl 5 too and did not have millions of adena to spare.
I have seen newbies learning the game and earning their very first million adena legitimately and they earned my respect. If a lvl 75 guy then laughs at the newbie for being poor, the lvl 75 behaves like a ****** and not like anyone, who deserves respect.
And may I ask who made you the arbitor of what game is a "time-sink" and what game is "strategy" worthy?
Who made you? Compared to you, I know both games.
Lineage 2 definitely requires strategy to play. Thats why I said the same principles you applied to your simulation game applies to Lineage 2. Talk to anyone who ever planned a large castle siege or a epic mob boss raid and I'd like to hear or see their reaction when you tell them its a utter skill-less excersice. You'll be surprised exactly how much strategy IS required to pull something like that off.
I'm in the clan holding Schuttgart on Teon. We defended it even though we were at war with one of the two biggest uber-alliances of the server; in the last siege their attacked, there were more than 1000 PCs fighting around and in the castle.
I guess I can talk with myself, then?
The point is moot anyway. We're not talking about PvP, or raids. We're talking about regular PvE, which is all that is required to reach level 75.
so I guess based off on one *** that was a level 75 player you generalize the whole lot? Is this what you are saying then?
A level 75+ player wether you like it or not, give back much more to the community. They are the ones that have commited the time to keep playing at play *all* content that the game has and therefore makes the developers *push* for more content to fill the game with.
Sometimes its only high level content but anyone who has played an aging MMORPG knows that a game without expanding high level content is a dead game. The majority rules in MMORPGs and the Majority keeps the game going. Lo and behold, the majority of the players are now int he 7x ranges aren't they?
So yes they *DO* give more back to the community. As much as there are [censored] out there, there are those in the majority that are there helping newbies into clans and such.
Don't be deluded that the handful of lower level people in the game are contributing *more* than the majority at hand. That presumption is ridiculous both quantitatively and logically.
This is not to say that casual players like yourself and myself don't contribute either. But face with the real data and facts of this game, the majority is there contributing the most.
lol are you kidding me? So you think that your level 40 and you can talk about what people have experienced at level 75+?
lol maybe if your a higher level through ebay. But if someone actually played their class to 75+, they'll know a hell of a lot more than any level 40, no matter what he/she thinks. Maybe you should try and get there first yes?
You are confusing two points here:
1. Being able to judge something in which you have no personal experience. As in: "This judge have never killed anybody, how could she handle this murder case?"
2. Having more personal experience in something particular. As in: "Hey, I'm an Archmage, how could that Human Wizard (the lvl 31 Festival twink of some lvl 6x Gladi, btw) have more experience in AoE nukes than me?"
And may I ask who made you the arbitor of what game is a "time-sink" and what game is "strategy" worthy?
Who made you? Compared to you, I know both games.
Lineage 2 definitely requires strategy to play. Thats why I said the same principles you applied to your simulation game applies to Lineage 2. Talk to anyone who ever planned a large castle siege or a epic mob boss raid and I'd like to hear or see their reaction when you tell them its a utter skill-less excersice. You'll be surprised exactly how much strategy IS required to pull something like that off.
I'm in the clan holding Schuttgart on Teon. We defended it even though we were at war with one of the two biggest uber-alliances of the server; in the last siege their attacked, there were more than 1000 PCs fighting around and in the castle.
I guess I can talk with myself, then?
The point is moot anyway. We're not talking about PvP, or raids. We're talking about regular PvE, which is all that is required to reach level 75.
lol yes you know both games *YOU* named. Just because I haven't played this other game you mentioned, doesn't mean I haven't played countless others I can compare my game experience in Lineage 2 to. So that makes your point *moot*.
As for you holding a castle, then I guess its *MY* turn to chime up and say you proved *MY* point. You of all people should know strategy is required to keep your castle or maybe your just not in the loop with the majority of your clan or the leadership in your clan that plans things out so that you guys *CAN* keep your castle?
Skills are required on both levels at PvE and PvP. I don't understand how you could not understand this after playing Lineage 2 for so long..or have you played it long at all?
As for you holding a castle, then I guess its *MY* turn to chime up and say you proved *MY* point. You of all people should know strategy is required to keep your castle or maybe your just not in the loop with the majority of your clan or the leadership in your clan that plans things out so that you guys *CAN* keep your castle?
I never claimed anything about PvP, remember?
It was always about reaching level 75. Which you can very well do without PvP, or raid bosses for that matter.
Stop changing the subject.
Skills are required on both levels at PvE and PvP. I don't understand how you could not understand this after playing Lineage 2 for so long..or have you played it long at all?
- PvP doesn't matter for this discussion
- I've yet to see any significant skill in PvE which you have to know to reach level 75. You can even reach level 75 by just leeching XP from others. Not only no skill required, not even being at keyboard.
For the record, I'm playing this game since somewhat more than a year.
As for you holding a castle, then I guess its *MY* turn to chime up and say you proved *MY* point. You of all people should know strategy is required to keep your castle or maybe your just not in the loop with the majority of your clan or the leadership in your clan that plans things out so that you guys *CAN* keep your castle?
I never claimed anything about PvP, remember?
It was always about reaching level 75. Which you can very well do without PvP, or raid bosses for that matter.
Stop changing the subject.
Skills are required on both levels at PvE and PvP. I don't understand how you could not understand this after playing Lineage 2 for so long..or have you played it long at all?
- PvP doesn't matter for this discussion
- I've yet to see any significant skill in PvE which you have to know to reach level 75. You can even reach level 75 by just leeching XP from others. Not only no skill required, not even being at keyboard.
For the record, I'm playing this game since somewhat more than a year.
Well PvE wise, you still need to know how to hunt and what skillsets your avatar/character comes with and which is the best way to hunt to optimize your xp. It will require exploring and finding the most optimal mobs to kill for xp per kill and sometimes you might stumble across mobs that are highly dangerous.
As a nuker you need to manage your mana wisely so that you don't end up in the middle of a spawning group of monsters that are all aggro just as you run out of mana. You'd be dead pretty fast and losing 4% at level 75+ is not fun at all...not fun at all.
Sorry, but I see contribution to the game as something active, not passive.
Just playing the game is not "contributing" to it.
That said, I would like to claim, that the majority of players accross all level ranges does not contribute to the game at all. They are playing the game and there is nothing wrong with it.
Calling it a contribution to the game, cause you reached a high level (without e.g. helping anyone else, without even talking much to anyone outside the own clan, without reporting bugs, without making suggestions...) is silly IMHO.
Splatter (who has yet to reach lvl 40 char, if I am not mistaken) did contribute more to the community than many 75er. (Just as an example)
Ellybelly with her guides did do much more for the community than most other 75er.
You play the game and level comes automatically. If you do not die all the time, you can hardly prevent leveling.
All it takes is time.
To make a harsh comparison:
to play Super Mario Bros, you need to learn, how to jump with that fuzzy char. You can then play and play and play and you need to learn, when you need to jump. If you do not learn the right timing, you can pllay the same sequence a million times and you will not get any further.
In Lineage2, the moronic repetition of the same task for a milion times is exactly the way to play the game. You do not need to learn some special style or move. You do not even need to use the full potential of your class. You can even use a non-top weapon. And still you will level. The absolute only thing you need to do to gain 75 eventually is to make more exp from leveling than you loose from dying. As long as that difference is positive, you will become lvl 75.
So yes, gaining lvl 75 is easier than playing Super Mario Bros. More time consuming, but still easier in the skill need involved.
Sieges, effective PvP, tournaments, olympiad, Raids and everything else, that is not purely leveling is a whole different matter. Of course, you need to learn, how to raid, or the raid boss will anihilate your group. You need to learn how to siege or the defenders will laugh at you. You can loose to a person 20 lvl below you in PvP, if you cannot play your char good.
But that all aside, as long as your net exp gain is positive, you will make it to lvl 75 at some time in the future. with no skill required.
Well PvE wise, you still need to know how to hunt and what skillsets your avatar/character comes with and which is the best way to hunt to optimize your xp. It will require exploring and finding the most optimal mobs to kill for xp per kill and sometimes you might stumble across mobs that are highly dangerous.
... or, alternatively, you just have to know the right people who'll let you leech XP from them while your character is sitting near and you're out in town, chatting girls up.
You make it sound like making 75 is an accomplishment.. sorry to break it to ya, it's not. It doesn't mean jack anymore. It's so easy to level, it's a joke compared to Beta to C1.
Knowledge is fundamental to skill, if you "win" without knowing how, it's called luck :P
Er how can someone playing the game not be "active"? The very point that that person is playing is contributing to the survival of this game in NA?
As for people who contribute who are lower than level 75+, like those people in question, there is no doubt that they contributly heavily, but I might add that thoese peole you mention are also the most *VISIBLE* because they are so outspoken on these forums.
That does not mean that there are those in the game that are less outspoken that do not contribute. In fact I believe a great majority that doesnt even visit these boards contribute very much to the game.
As for your *RIDICULOUS* example of comparing Super Mario Brothers being harder than to reach Level 75+ who the hell are you kidding? Do you really think anyone would concur with that absurd generalizaton? Hell I'll bet you a HUGE amount of money I'd finish playing Super Mario Brothers than reaching Level 75+ on Lineage 2 any time of eternity and I'll win *EVERY* time.
And as for reaching level 75+, has anyone who has responded in this thread actually reached Level 7x? Thats really funny isn't it? People who are not even level 7x talking Sh*t about something that is waaay out of their grasp for the moment, making it sound so easy to grasp. How laughable.
You make it sound like making 75 is an accomplishment.. sorry to break it to ya, it's not. It doesn't mean jack anymore. It's so easy to level, it's a joke compared to Beta to C1.
Knowledge is fundamental to skill, if you "win" without knowing how, it's called luck :P
:/ this coming from a guy talking about how Nukers are overpowered when Sorcerers only have 1 useful spell in their *WHOLE* inventory of spells. Prominence. Yeah we sure are overpowered aren't we?
I'll try to be polite. That was a comment on how much Sorcerers were nerfed and how much people like Mulch over there was ignorant of the issue. Don't prove yourself to be the same as well.
Otherwise your comment was totally...inappropriate. hrm..
You make it sound like making 75 is an accomplishment.. sorry to break it to ya, it's not. It doesn't mean jack anymore. It's so easy to level, it's a joke compared to Beta to C1.
Knowledge is fundamental to skill, if you "win" without knowing how, it's called luck :P
:/ this coming from a guy talking about how Nukers are overpowered when Sorcerers only have 1 useful spell in their *WHOLE* inventory of spells. Prominence. Yeah we sure are overpowered aren't we?
N00b.
LOL! This post just proves that you have no idea what you're talking about, nor what anyone else is talking about. This whole thread proves that you can't comprehend that other people have different opinions than you, nor can you fathom that you might be wrong, even when everyone disagree with you!! That must be some kind of hint, don't you think?
Claiming Sorc has ONE useful spell only support that fact. Learn your class please.
LOL I know my class *sorcerer* a hell of a lot better than you probably know yours. We do have 1 useful spell now. Prominence. Its the *1* spell that keeps me in this game hoping that NCSOFT unnerfs some of the HUGE unjustices they have visited upon my class with the nerf craziness that have gripped their nerf-lust.
If *YOU* have no clue about every sorcerer that have been hammering at you from that other thread, than your head must be cased in bronze.
If you actually read what I wrote in the other thread, you'd understand what I said. We won't drag it in here as well. I saw 3 angry Sorcs whining, moaning and complaining about their uber nerfed char, only looking at it from their "nerfed" point of view.
But I think I got my point across to people with reading comprehension. And, you did call me a n00b, so I guess you win! ;)
hmm as I remember it there were a lot more than 3 sorcerers that commented on that nerf. Also if you actually think justying nerfs on a class 5x over as being anywhere justified, I think that shows your character as well. I'm confident that sooner or later the developers will realize that mistake...they just haven't felt the hurt yet from the thousands of sorcerers quitting their accounts back in Korea yet.
As for me calling you a n00b, hey you are what you are? Can I help it for stating the truth?
Sorry, BlazerX, but if simply paying for the game to keep it alive is already counting as contribution, then I am contributing to the game for years, in the same way as anyone else is contributing to the game.
And following that logic, a player, who is paying 2 years for an account, that they never login would contribute the same as a player, who is reaching lvl 75 in the same time.
And I stick to the mario bros example. I am sure, that you need to learn more "tricks" and better timing to master Super Mario than you need to level a char in Lineage2. If you want to level fast and in the most effective way possible, that is again a whole different thing, but on the extreme long run, you could even level from dark blue mobs. Everything that gives exp contributes to leveling.
The skill required to play this game is very well reflected in the ammount of bot programs that are available. Bots need repetitive patterns and they can do them well. They need repetitions.
A bot to play Super Mario Bro would be more complicated than a bot for L2 is.
Anyway as a last thought, I'd like to ask all of you once again to try and get to 75+ before you actually comment on what it might take or be like to be 75+. It would really help your credibility.
With the rate you contradict yourself.. it's hilarious that you just said that!
PROMINENCE!!
I'll make this last post, just for you Mulch. Becase you are a rare exception.
First off IF you played a sorcerer to 75+ and tried to level, solo, which is prretty much what Sorcerers are stuck with these days, you'd actually get a clue what skillset a Sorcerer has to level with.
And you know WTF that is? Its our 1 single DD nuke. Prominence. Maybe if you had a *CLUE* to actually play a Sorcerer you'd understand how utterly stupid most of your posts have been on this topic.
Also I never cared for PvP for Sorcerers. To me it was all about PvE. When they nerfed BOTH our sleep spells, it gave us 0 purpose for groups. It was our 1 saving grace in parties. Now we are poor mana management, 1 nuke wonders.
Anyway as a last thought, I'd like to ask all of you once again to try and get to 75+ before you actually comment on what it might take or be like to be 75+. It would really help your credibility.
You'd better stop contradicting yourself in each subsequent post, though.
But you indeed serve a good example of how someone could reach lvl 75 and still know their class no better than lvl 40 could.
hmm I know you want the spotlight but c'mon, your just being mean now. You should know better with a pretty name like Krissa. Shame on you!
So, tell us what you as a lvl 75+ nuker could do in PvE and a lvl 40 Sorc player couldn't.
Hmmm im happy that i got Baium last night so i wont flame in this thread :)
Im lvl 75 sorc-finaly got my 40 lvl BD sub and gonna play it.
AS for usefull spells........Prominence/Slow/Cancel/Aura bolt.
Cancel and slow are nerfed so they arent that usefull anyway.
Aura bolt got too little dmg but atleast casts fast.(Surrender to Fire is part of Prominence->they need to be cast together!)
As you can discover for yourself in the "other" thread, Mulch has a clear anti-nuker agenda. MalineII's anti-nuker agenda has been clear for as long as I've read her posts.
As for the 75+ argument:
Firstly, the sorc at 70+ has an entirely different playing experience than does the sub 70 sorc. If you had EXPERIENCE with the class, you would know that.
It in no way means that a player at level 40 is a noob, is dumb, or doesn't have valid knowledge based on theiur own experience. However, if you elect to ignore the fact that at increasing levels that game game dynamics change and affect a character differently, then you are being obtuse.
And yes, there are players who reach high levels without fully experiencing the class: There are illegitimiate means of leveling for example, or a toon may be in a clan that levels in one way exclusively (i.e. all aoe parties, no soloing, rift groups, ALL soloing, etc). Each player has an individual amount of experience, but there is a very simple fact... those who have NOT legitimately gained level 65 on an OL, for example, cannot claim to know more than the player that HAS.
Now, I k now quite a bit about the Silver Ranger class, for example, because my wife plays one and we spend alot of time together in groups, in duos, or soloing, but right next to each other on our PCs. So I can understand if someone speaks through intimate second-hand knowledge.
But you can't simply dismiss experience. It has a validity.
And I don't cry about my class, but I do refute falsehoods and illegitimate claims made by those who either are mis/uninformed or who have an agenda.
When I say to people who drone on about my class being overpowered: "level one yourself THEN tell me about it" it is because my experience playing the class clearly debunks the perpetuated myths. However, most people prefer to live blissfully ignorant. There is a reason you don't see legions of Sorcs on your server.
BUT DON"T TAKE MY WORD FOR IT! Try it yourself. And if you refuse to, then simply acknowledsge the fact that you have zero experience with the class and do not have an educated point of view from which to cast declarations.