Based on the number of threads complaining about one class or another being overpowered, or about classes being boxed because they aren't fun to play, it's fairly easy to conclude that the game is somewhat broken in a couple of different places.
The goal of this discussion will first be to identify exactly what is broken and then suggest a couple of possible fixes, with the idea that if the game were more fun to play, more people would play it.
So what's broken?
First and foremost - support classes, primarily SE's, Prophets, EE's, and Bishops. As anyone who has played for longer than a couple of months can tell you, there are not enough real players playing these classes. This has been a problem since Beta, although in C5, these classes were given some new skills to make them more appealing, they still do not have the draw that makes people say "Hell yeah, I'm rerolling to prophet."
Second problem - Balance. PvP in L2 is either totally unbalanced or poorly balanced. Everyone knows it, although many do not like to admit it. It's pretty much always been this way in one fashion or another. In C5, the Dev's finally gave us a clue as to what the problem is exactly. They balanced PvP in C5 using rock - paper - scissors, specifically for the Olympiad. Now this would be fine, except for that the Olympiad is only used by about 2% of the server, and it has a very specific set of rules that are absolutely nothing like your typical day to day PvP experienced by the majority of players. In effect, the balance only affects a very small minority, and it has the side-effect of making the PvP most experience totally out of balance.
Thirdly - PvE balance is also out of whack. The reason for this statement is that it seems few people actually PvE using the methods the Dev's seem to have in mind when they work on the PvE design. By this I mean, you either box some support classes and level very fast, or you go buffless and hope for the best. This creates a large disparity between the haves and the have nots, which results in many players becoming disgruntled.
In theory, if we could fix these three issues, the game would be more fun to play, and would attract and keep more players. In turn this would correct the next perceived issue, which is that the population is dropping on many servers.
When you look at all of these issues, they all have one thing in common, and it happens to be a major design flaw in the game. The buff system is broken. When you examine the olympiad, you see that for the most part, the classes are balanced the way the Dev's intended, except for a couple of minor issues, that are relatively easy to fix. (Prophets, Gladi's, Daggers, Summoners>All)
The primary result of the olympiad being mostly balanced, but not taking into account buffs is that everything else is badly unbalanced. Regular PvP, and PvE rely heavily on buffs, and as a result some classes fully buffed have extreme advantages over others.
In a nutshell, classes have been balanced to Olympiad rules, which screws them up in normal PvP and PvE.
Here's my recommended fix:
Put an Olympiad manager in the Olympiad Arena and make him offer all buffs. When a player ports in, they choose the buffs they want, just like a clan hall. In addition, make all pots, and shots useable in the Olympiad. Then, balance the classes based off the olympiad properly, assuming that players are going to have access to full buffs and consumables.
It stands to reason that if the Olympiad reflects the day to day play of the players and it were balanced that suddenly the day to day play would also be balanced.
Next step - if we balance based on full buffs, then we are assuming that in day to day play, players have access to all buffs. We know this is not the case. The next thing to do is create a mechanism that gives players access to those buffs. The best bet, would be some type of consumable, like L2Day scrolls, that players can purchase (money sink) and use to get the buffs they want. I'm talking about the full list of buffs.. CoV, PoW, PoF, EVERYTHING.
Now that presents the possibility for abuse, and it would create a huge workload for the PvE group. I mean lvl 10 fighters are not supposed to have CoV. lol The fix? Simple, put grades on these items. This way, as you increase in grade, the buffs you have access to increase in grade. In theory, PvE is already designed with these buffs in mind, although my guess is that it would need just a little tweaking. Not a whole lot though, just a little.
Buffers, please bare with me, because I know at this point it sounds like I have destroyed your classes. The fact is, if players want to get rid of buffers all together, it's going to be very expensive for them to do so, only a foolish clan would let their buffers slip away. The next thing NCSoft needs to do is take a close look at the buffers skills, and focus on giving them some more debuffs, and active PvP skills. Beef up the debuffs, so that they actually make a difference in PvP and are worth casting, and you have suddenly made the buffer classes very valuable in PvP.
If we assume that the Olympiad is rebalanced to account for full buffs, and we know that defensive mages are supposed to kill offensive mages, then it stands to reason that this would carry over into daily PvP. All of a sudden every gank squad that's forming up is going to be begging for a couple support classes to go along and pwn the enemy mages!!
A little change like this goes a LONG ways. It makes soloing way more enjoyable. It makes the disparity between the 3 boxxer and the true soloer smaller. It makes the support classes much more attractive, and fun to play. It fixes PvP to be more balanced, which makes it more fun for everyone.
A fix like this would allow the Dev's to make small tweaks to the classes to fine tune thier balance. It gives them a level surface to work that balance out on, and can even be done by grade. It also allows the Dev's to fine tune the PvE system to really add alot of attraction to the game.
Imagine a Prophet or other defensive mage being able to solo by searching out Mage type mobs, which he is strong against.
The biggest change is that at this point PvP will no longer be a game of who has the best buffs and levels. It will be a game of which group is strong against the other group, which players selected the proper buffs for the indidual(s) they are fighting at the time, and which players played their character the best.
There's a lot that's broken, not just buffs. But to stick to the topic:
1) buffs should disappear when the player that gave them to you leaves your party (except if that player disconnected from the server, in which case you should have some failsafe mechanism).
2) There needs to be more effective means for support classes to level. Damage dealing classes can get buffs from a clanhall or an out-of-party player, but support classes can't get damage dealing from a clanhall or an out-of-party player. So damage dealers can amplify their leveling speed while supports cannot.
3) Offense power in L2 is too strong compared to defense power. More defensive buffs should be added. Deflect arrow buff for prophets/WCs would be my #1 request.
4) Damage dealing from range needs to be balanced against melee damage dealing. A class that can hit from 900 range should do damage more slowly than one that must be at point blank range.
5) Also, it's pretty broken that melees cannot attack while running. That's a big problem.
6) Furthermore, supports have no way to kill enemies during pvp, even the enemies that the rock-paper-scissors system says they should be able to beat. Why can't you mana burn someone to death? Or debuff them to death? Debuffs are generally too weak (except for necromancers), either because they reduce stats negligibly, don't last long enough, are too costly in terms of MP, or just contribute less to victory than simply using standard attacks.
7) Damage over time skills like poison and freezing flame need to be strengthened now that there are so many more healing abilities (such as CP potions).
In a nutshell, classes have been balanced to Olympiad rules, which screws them up in normal PvP and PvE.
Here's my recommended fix:
Put an Olympiad manager in the Olympiad Arena and make him offer all buffs. When a player ports in, they choose the buffs they want, just like a clan hall. In addition, make all pots, and shots useable in the Olympiad. Then, balance the classes based off the olympiad properly, assuming that players are going to have access to full buffs and consumables.
It stands to reason that if the Olympiad reflects the day to day play of the players and it were balanced that suddenly the day to day play would also be balanced.
There's a lot that's broken, not just buffs. But to stick to the topic:
1) buffs should disappear when the player that gave them to you leaves your party (except if that player disconnected from the server, in which case you should have some failsafe mechanism).
I disagree. Boxxed buffers are a result of not enough people playing buffers. It's not that people don't play buffers because so many people box them. Your solution would not create more played buffers, it would just piss people off, and for the most part hurt the population of the game.
2) There needs to be more effective means for support classes to level. Damage dealing classes can get buffs from a clanhall or an out-of-party player, but support classes can't get damage dealing from a clanhall or an out-of-party player. So damage dealers can amplify their leveling speed while supports cannot.
Agreed, which is what I was talking about when I said that buffing should be a secondary option for most buffers, instead their primary goal should be something else - debuffing, crowdcontrol, even DoT. If the game were balanced PvE wise so that everyone was assumed to be fully buffed then one might expect for Support types to hunt offensive mage type mobs, since that is what their class is balanced against.
3) Offense power in L2 is too strong compared to defense power. More defensive buffs should be added. Deflect arrow buff for prophets/WCs would be my #1 request.
I don't believe this is exactly accurate. I think there are alot of defensive buffs that never get utilised by the classes who need them. Most people for PvP are busy stacking their DD parties with their best buffs and worry about the tanks later. The system I discussed would allow the tanks to insure they have the buffs they need (defense!!)
4) Damage dealing from range needs to be balanced against melee damage dealing. A class that can hit from 900 range should do damage more slowly than one that must be at point blank range.
5) Also, it's pretty broken that melees cannot attack while running. That's a big problem.
6) Furthermore, supports have no way to kill enemies during pvp, even the enemies that the rock-paper-scissors system says they should be able to beat. Why can't you mana burn someone to death? Or debuff them to death? Debuffs are generally too weak (except for necromancers), either because they reduce stats negligibly, don't last long enough, are too costly in terms of MP, or just contribute less to victory than simply using standard attacks.
7) Damage over time skills like poison and freezing flame need to be strengthened now that there are so many more healing abilities (such as CP potions).
Much of what you discuss is a side effect of the Olympiad being the point of balance or the game, when it is nothing like the actual day to day play of the game.
In fact, because that is the case, if they were to make many of the changes you suggest, it would promptly ruin the olympiad. ie - if debuffs were stronger, then when in an unbuffed olympiad, they would promptly become the 1 button win.
I believe they have done an ok job of balancing the olympiad. It does still need some work, but it's a far cry better than your day to day pvp balance. At least you don't see people in the olympiad getting 1 shotted.
If they change the olympiad to match day to day play, and then rebalance from there, most of what you complain about would be fixed promptly.
In a nutshell, classes have been balanced to Olympiad rules, which screws them up in normal PvP and PvE.
Here's my recommended fix:
Put an Olympiad manager in the Olympiad Arena and make him offer all buffs. When a player ports in, they choose the buffs they want, just like a clan hall. In addition, make all pots, and shots useable in the Olympiad. Then, balance the classes based off the olympiad properly, assuming that players are going to have access to full buffs and consumables.
It stands to reason that if the Olympiad reflects the day to day play of the players and it were balanced that suddenly the day to day play would also be balanced.
lol agreed.
Except I want Mistryl to forward the full explanation to her bosses.
Plus the some of the effects of what I talk about are kind of subtle. ;)
So what's broken?
First and foremost - support classes, primarily SE's, Prophets, EE's, and Bishops. As anyone who has played for longer than a couple of months can tell you, there are not enough real players playing these classes. This has been a problem since Beta, although in C5, these classes were given some new skills to make them more appealing, they still do not have the draw that makes people say "Hell yeah, I'm rerolling to prophet."
I love you BigHands.
2) There needs to be more effective means for support classes to level. Damage dealing classes can get buffs from a clanhall or an out-of-party player, but support classes can't get damage dealing from a clanhall or an out-of-party player. So damage dealers can amplify their leveling speed while supports cannot.
Bighands, work has fried me, but goshdarn it, from first read that sounds like a heck of an idea. I also like the idea of buffs being lost when buffer is out of party. Why not change buffs from a cast type to an aura-type?
You can have party buffers, clan buffers and alliance buffers as we have currently, with auras that are either activated or not activated, and players can select any or all aura buffs available to them to be negated for their toons from the buff bar slot. (negated buffs still take a slot, though... adds the need to plan parties well).
Oh well, it's a step in the right direction, excellent idea Bighands. Mind if I watch this topic and maybe bring it up on air next week?
I play two boxes relatively live - but, for example, at the moment I'm trying to push my EE - so the natural choice is to drop the prophet from party. This is a freedom I have after levelling both characters - both on and off in and out of party - and I don't see why it should be taken away from me. I love them both to bits, I am just in more of a hurry about one of them right now.
What I would personally like to see:
- Return debuffs to their old cast times, durations and effects. Casting windshackle once a mob is already more than many boxers are willing to do - and while it's helpful now, it's nothing like what it used to be. If -50% attack speed is too much for PvP (and with the current pace of PvP I honestly can't agree with that), we all know that it's possible to change the effect of skills in PvE - shorter duration, or lower land rate.
- Give us moe 'surrender' style buffs and debuffs - I really enjoyed the little desurrendering I did in PvP before, but now things are simply too fast to hope to remove a surrender for long, or before it could have done any damage.
- Improve DoTs significantly and introduce cures for all of them - no 'cleanse' all-in-one solution either. Add more debiliating abilities and appropriate cures. These kind of abilities are then interactive and fun.
Or something like that. I blame the late hour if that made no sense. :p
PS: I don't think removing the need for a buffer will sovle the problem at this stage. Designing it differently at the beginning would have been good.
I use to play a game where people would hang at a certain part of town and get buffed, and the buffs would last up to 3-4 hours.
For instance a level 20 would cast an AOE shield for everyone that would last 10 mins. If they cast it again it added 10 more mins, and so on and so forth. A level 70 player would cast the AOE shield and it would last 50 mins, a second cast another 50, so they would hit the max buff time in fewer casts and less mp.
People would then leave town and exp for 3+ hours then come back. Thing is, all the buffer type classes COULD SOLO. And the only ones that could not really solo got exp from healing. Eh. That was nice.
Ellie - the way I visualize the game going in my post is along the lines of what you talk about.
By making the support classes take on a more active support role in PvP as opposed to a passive support role, the classes would gain some appeal. Passive support = buffs. Active Support = debuffs, DoT's, even debuff removal.
The way they have stated PvP is supposed to be, defensive mages should be able to beat offensive mages most of the time. In the olympiad they do. In the real game though, puhlease.
One big thing I did not mention.
The olympiad is designed so that fights last a good 3 minutes. The only time PvP in the actual game lasts 3 minutes is if it's 2 tanks in a 1v1 or someone is running away and being chased for 3 minutes.
If buffs were included in the olympiad and then it were reworked, NCSoft could rebalance so that regular PvP lasts 3 or 4 minutes, which IMO would be a helluva lot more fun.
hmm i got a SE most of my Debuffs dont even land on x4 mobs why even waste MP's if land rate is zero heir is a example
Angels in ToI as SE best healing is redusing atk of mob with wind shackle but land rate zero,poison zero give buffers a ton of debuffing skills people will play them more sinds they feel more in the groep now people just sit their on the ground doing nothing dont think it's very funny to be a full time buffer after 1,5 year only sitting on ground dont you
So close and yet so far Bighands....you've noted a few of the problem areas, but your still not hitting the mark on exactly what is breaking them in the first place. (Your seeing the results, but not the actual cause...) And yes, this is a bit of a complex issue in the details, but it's not all that hard to see the root cause. I can pretty much sum it up in one sentence. Ready?
L2 is designed to encourage/require cooperation among the players....but all the game mechanics and changes do exactly the opposite and discourage cooperation!
Granted, I believe that this 'problem' is far more developed on the NA servers, but I think it is starting to show up more on the Kr servers as well. I think the Kr video of Interlude where a party was killing one of the new Dino mobs shows this pretty well....how many melee did you see in that party?
When you get down to it everything is affected by the trifecta of [PvP], [PvE] and the [Economy]. When only two classes (Nuker and Archer) can dominate all three it is obvious something is broken. The existance of the RMT market which can completely nueter the influence off the [Economy] doesn't help things either.
Since the [PvP] part of this equation is what is distorting the NA servers of L2 the most let me finish this post by focusing on that and let the other two areas of influence go for now.
1)PvP in NA is burdened heavily by the FPS influenced crowd.
Simply put, a large number of players want to be the 'pwner' and not the 'pwnee'. And not only do they want to do this, they don't want to be burdened by the long PvE buildup to it either. They want to get in, roll a few parties and or siege/war someone else, then log off and do it again the next day. NOTE: Nowhere in this does 'grinding 5K mobs' ever come into play as something they want to do. The legit players who didn't roll a 'pvp' toon and get rolled as a result are only going to take being the 'underdog' for so long and either A)Quit or B)Reroll/sub their PvE char into a PvP char. And a 'support' class is definately not a 'PvP' char no matter what NC likes to bluster about with the Olympiad and their RPS system. Thus 'Support' isn't played 'live' because it's only used in pvp for buffs and you only need boxed 'support' for that. Which bring us to...
2)Olympiad / RPS system.
I put these two together because they are part of the same problem even if they are two sides of the same issue. First the Olympiad. This was quite simply, a complete mistake. They basically justified the entire FPS crowd of #1 with this setup. Where NC should have worked on a way that people where rewarded and recognized for helping each other and working together, instead NC created a system where 'rambo-izing', grandstanding and 'power gaming' are the tour-de-force which dominates. All the changes made to 'balance' something which is inherently unbalanced is just serving to further drive people into the pvp power gamer mold and either out or away from the classes and playstyle that use and rely on cooperation.
Which brings us to the other side of this: The RPS system. If the Olympiad was a mistake, the RPS system was the cockup to coverup the blunder. Not only was the RPS system just a 'justification' to balance issues that already existed, it was a half-***** idea to begin with given those problems anyway!
Where NC created this RPS 'circle' they should have been working on strengthening the already existing classes so that the strength of one could be countered by the strength of the other. So instead of a lopsided donut, where Nukers and archers sat on top of everyone else, there should have been a Matrix of strengths and weaknesses which meant if a single Nuker/Archer could roll an entire party of another class, then there should be another class that could roll an entire party of Nukers/Archers!
At the heart of everything lies the fact that Offense is obscenely overpowered in this game compared to Defense. If Nukers can 2 hit eveything up to L80...where is the defensive character that can take enough damage to drain 2 nukers of MP before falling? Simply put, there isn't because defense not only got the short end of the L2 balance stick, it got beat down and locked in the closet and NC threw away the key.
At the heart of the imbalances, NC needs to make defense just as powerful as the offense when 'balancing' things. And no, just boosting the heals of the healing classes isn't going to cut it when the classes getting hit are dying before the healer even knows they are being attacked.
The big problem is that many classes simply aren't fun, at least to most people. Dwarves and buffers come to mind -- both of them have virtually nothing to do in battles, and a large part of why buffers are OOPd is that for 19 our of every 20 minutes they aren't contributing anything at all except the lowest possible DPS ingame.
Buffers really need USEFUL skills they can realistically use in battle while having the MP to buff at the end of the round. They need to focus on making the class enjoyable and interesting to play. Usually the only times I'm playing only my buffer, I'm just checking the game every 20 min to join the party, hit my buff macro, and leave.
I hate to say this and I know that it seems negative, but I don't think the developers are up to it. It's like they've lost their way or just have no clue.
Their Art design is amazing and the idea that pvp is the endgame, utilizing politics and player vs player interaction as the catalyst for gameplay is a great idea.
Unlike other games, there really does feel like there is more purpose to being in a clan or alliance as opposed to a chat channel while you grind and do quests.
But these 6 month updates just aren't enough. They move very slowly and I'm not convinced that many of their improvements have really been worth it.
What of the Arena that no one uses, or old hunting areas that are dead. People who play dwarves have been screaming for change for a long time.
And what type of game makes it so that healers and buffers are reduced to being boxes.
3 years into it and I just don't think they can do it. And is Interlude going to take care of any of the player's concerns.
Sorry, I know that is negative but I'm just not impressed. :(
And while this is a nice and well thought out thread what kind of reply do we get just mistryl posting how nice this thread is, and that she has relayed it to the needed departments.
What is needed in this thread is a response from a NC korean developer or some form of developer. We seek input.....We seek a discussion.
I disagree with you on a few things. Mostly though, you seem to identify the problem as being with the players. To me, a smart developer will create an evironment that gives the players what they want. As a dev, you cannot force players to play a certain way.
You can encourage it, and you can provide game mechanics, but the players will only go so far. Simply put if your player base does not enjoy your game, then you will have no playerbase.
With that in mind, L2 attracts a certain type of player primarily by it's nature. It is a highly competitive team based game, so naturally it appeals strongly to highly competitive players.
So if we have a very competitive player base, it is somewhat foolish to think that they are going to play classes that cannot compete. This is the reason the majority of buffers and healers are boxxed.
Where NC created this RPS 'circle' they should have been working on strengthening the already existing classes so that the strength of one could be countered by the strength of the other. So instead of a lopsided donut, where Nukers and archers sat on top of everyone else, there should have been a Matrix of strengths and weaknesses which meant if a single Nuker/Archer could roll an entire party of another class, then there should be another class that could roll an entire party of Nukers/Archers!
At the heart of everything lies the fact that Offense is obscenely overpowered in this game compared to Defense. If Nukers can 2 hit eveything up to L80...where is the defensive character that can take enough damage to drain 2 nukers of MP before falling? Simply put, there isn't because defense not only got the short end of the L2 balance stick, it got beat down and locked in the closet and NC threw away the key.
At the heart of the imbalances, NC needs to make defense just as powerful as the offense when 'balancing' things. And no, just boosting the heals of the healing classes isn't going to cut it when the classes getting hit are dying before the healer even knows they are being attacked.
If you watch the Olympiad, you will see that the #1 class, the one that can easily defeat every other class is the Prophet. They are followed up closely by the Gladiator. Mages are a joke in the olympiad, archers aren't too bad, but they aren't assured victory.
Why? How can this be? Especially if offense is so much more powerful than defense?
It is because of the buff system and the fact that it is broken. With buffs we see archers and mages rule the battlefield, yet without buffs they are pretty much laughed at.
Fix the buff system, and the disparity between offense and defense will shrink to near non existence. Currently in most PvP, and I see quite a bit of it these days, what you will find is that archers and mages are the first to get the stacked buffer parties. Very rarely do you see a stacked tank group, and there is no way you'll ever see a stacked defensive mage group.
There is no doubt in my mind that a max buffed and stacked tank group would make failry short work of an archer group. Just like a stacked group of Supports (Bish, EE, SE, Proph) would wipe the floor with a mage group.
The reason it doesn't happen - there are not enough played supports to go around.
There are not enough played supports, because the majority of L2 players do not find those classes enjoyable to play.
If they did as I said though - make buffs more available, and focus on adjusting the support classes so that they get some time in the spotlight as well, then you would see more played, and you might start to see some of those stacked tank and stacked support groups.
hmm i got a SE most of my Debuffs dont even land on x4 mobs why even waste MP's if land rate is zero heir is a example
Angels in ToI as SE best healing is redusing atk of mob with wind shackle but land rate zero,poison zero
Really? I land sleep, root, poison (Well, not often, but that's cause I rarely use it) and Wind Shackle fairly regular in TOI on the angels and other big nasties. I do use shots, but they stick. Even on root/sleep resists.
And hush, Maline. I know your trance sticks better.
It's too late to fix support classes now ... barely anyone new picks them up, and those who played them rerolled. The few that stay are not enough and worthy to redesign game around. People already went for damage dealing classes, noone will scream "gosh I want to reroll EE NOW!!1 They are uber" when they have 7x necro + archer sub with buffboxes on the tail.
Other big problem is that pvp and pve systems are bound together ... the same that pays for players does for mobs too and vice versa. If they want to fix the defense/offense and buffstacking crap, they would need to completely redesign mobs statuses - their pdef, mdef, weapon carrying, weaknesses etc. Like when you remove crit damage to not stack because of pvp, it hurts most classes in PVE too - so mobs would need to have lower pdef and more weaknesses. No wonder devs are not very keen doing it, they rather play in one sandbox of unbuffed pvp in olympiad because there is not much to broke there and if it is, it's easy to fix it. Count thousand of mobs against 31 classes ...
They need to focus on making the class enjoyable and interesting to play.
That's what it works down to. Melee assisting is fun (and I still have a DPS very comparable to that of fighters who decided to go -STR for some reason, tyvm), but somethign to do AS a healer would be nice.
dont think most ppl appreciate just how wrong the olympiad is
basically the idea is "the game is balanced when all classes are self buffed (but you need a btb staff, a focus staff, and a mental shield staff)
but wait its not balanced yet
we need to give all fighters WW 1 and all mages WW2
still not balanced
ok haste for fighters and mages are only allowed to use sps cause bsps is overpowered ><
now after doing all that crap which has absolutely nothing to do with real pvp its still not balanced
every class in game prays that their next match is against a nuker and not another overpowered prophet
the buffer issue goes back to game balance again but this time its the balance between the kill speed and cost of the classes
back when i was 50+ i used to shout all day for a healer - any healer bishop, EE, prophet whatever
i was constantly asking mages for shield and might 1 because in this game buffs > all when it comes to pve
by the time i was 57 i was at the point where i would kill 5 mobs max and then go rest for 5 minuets
luckily when i hit 58 i got big boom and got some solo power at which point healers started wanting to join my parties
it was at about 64 i realized big boom wasn't going to last forever so i made my SE
at this stage i cant even take a lvl 78 dagger into party without loseing millions a day and thats with an oop se and a 78 prophet
the more ppl in party the more money i lose.
if thats not bad enough even with what most ppl consider to be the highest damage output class in game in my party i still get less xp per hour than if i had just solo'ed
i think someone has already said it in this thread but L2 makes it essential to have buffs and then makes it completely impractical to actually have those ppl in party
i know i am prolly on the completely wrong side of the scale on this one but i dont think many classes can duo with a healer and still come out on top for adena at the end of the day
there needs to be more benefit for being in a party especially moreso for parties of more than 2 ppl
there needs to be more of a balance between cost so classes that actually choose to invite a healer into group dont have to lose millions a day doing so
there needs to be more of a balance between kill speed so if i healer has to choose between a nuker or a melee duo they actually have to think about it
there needs to be more benefit for being in a party especially moreso for parties of more than 2 ppl
**** straight brother.
If I party I accept that the xp will be subpar and the money will be lost. I just do it for the social aspect.
yeah me too but tbh its killing me
about the only class that benefits from anything higher than a 2 man duo is a pole user, although the benefit prolly isnt that great
So what's broken?
First and foremost - support classes, primarily SE's, Prophets, EE's, and Bishops. As anyone who has played for longer than a couple of months can tell you, there are not enough real players playing these classes. This has been a problem since Beta, although in C5, these classes were given some new skills to make them more appealing, they still do not have the draw that makes people say "Hell yeah, I'm rerolling to prophet."
And how exactly does you proposal help to solve that?
Thirdly - PvE balance is also out of whack. The reason for this statement is that it seems few people actually PvE using the methods the Dev's seem to have in mind when they work on the PvE design. By this I mean, you either box some support classes and level very fast, or you go buffless and hope for the best.
I play a support class. Do you think I level very fast?
Here's my recommended fix:
Put an Olympiad manager in the Olympiad Arena and make him offer all buffs. When a player ports in, they choose the buffs they want, just like a clan hall. In addition, make all pots, and shots useable in the Olympiad. Then, balance the classes based off the olympiad properly, assuming that players are going to have access to full buffs and consumables.
You cannot "balance" a hardcore cooperative MMO game based off some 1vs1. Or else full-Bishop group will pwn everything in group PvP.
It stands to reason that if the Olympiad reflects the day to day play of the players
Which is... to solo fullbuffed? Yeah, sure. Especially for support classes.
So what's broken?
First and foremost - support classes, primarily SE's, Prophets, EE's, and Bishops. As anyone who has played for longer than a couple of months can tell you, there are not enough real players playing these classes. This has been a problem since Beta, although in C5, these classes were given some new skills to make them more appealing, they still do not have the draw that makes people say "Hell yeah, I'm rerolling to prophet."
And how exactly does you proposal help to solve that?
Thirdly - PvE balance is also out of whack. The reason for this statement is that it seems few people actually PvE using the methods the Dev's seem to have in mind when they work on the PvE design. By this I mean, you either box some support classes and level very fast, or you go buffless and hope for the best.
I play a support class. Do you think I level very fast?
Here's my recommended fix:
Put an Olympiad manager in the Olympiad Arena and make him offer all buffs. When a player ports in, they choose the buffs they want, just like a clan hall. In addition, make all pots, and shots useable in the Olympiad. Then, balance the classes based off the olympiad properly, assuming that players are going to have access to full buffs and consumables.
You cannot "balance" a hardcore cooperative MMO game based off some 1vs1. Or else full-Bishop group will pwn everything in group PvP.
It stands to reason that if the Olympiad reflects the day to day play of the players
Which is... to solo fullbuffed? Yeah, sure. Especially for support classes.
I suggest you read BigHands OP again...You are expressing concern on points which he identified as being Problems...Not solutions and quote part of his answer which is a complex essay of cause and effect with a suggestion on HOW it could be fixed with a question towards the readers to give feedback as well.
What would you suggest towars your class (considering you play a support class) and what are (according to you) the problems of the game that spoil your progress, your class' needs and your fun?
Ellie has indeed given a nice suggestion in her personal topic (which she quoted here) and a few others have pointed out some very valid points as well (be it on problem side or on part of a solution).
To OP:
I already stated in the previous topic (of overpowered nukers) that the idea has some merrit. I do agree that support should be rebalanced as defensive mages and offer them a means to enable them to solo as well as being a strong asset in both PvE and PvP teams ups.
I can't understand why one would create a class and then tweak at the game in such fashion that they are unable to grow towards end game on their own.
SOmeone stated that this game is MMO and to team up and I agree in most terms with the remarks made. However, one does not have 24/7 a team to go with and in the moments of downtown I find that every class should have an equal chance in being able to solo grind.
I liked Ellie's Idea alot but on the other hand I'd find it very gratifying to see that supports are able to be there in the fields solo wacking away at mobs. Making support more appealing is one step in overcoming them from disappearing.
As for the suggestion of buffs only party wise...Not sure it would solve rather then create an even bigger complaint in the long run... I like Ellie's idea of the AoE buffs offering anyone in range to be able and stack them (though I didn't totaly get the whole mechanisme exactly).
I'd have to read back all constructive posts made so far and see what adds before I'd try to set down on paper my thoughts. Nice discussion in any case.
I suggest you read BigHands OP again...You are expressing concern on points which he identified as being Problems...Not solutions and quote part of his answer which is a complex essay of cause and effect with a suggestion on HOW it could be fixed with a question towards the readers to give feedback as well.
No, I'm speaking about his "solution". Which is:
1. "Balance" classes' PvE around their 1v1 fullbuffed PvP.
2. Make buffshops available to all DDs, not only to the ones with clanhalls.
3. Give supports some PvP debuffs to "compensate" for their intended uselessness in PvE after (1) and (2) are implemented.
Have I missed anything?
What would you suggest towars your class (considering you play a support class) and what are (according to you) the problems of the game that spoil your progress, your class' needs and your fun?
My class is fine as it is (at least at mid- and highlevels; 55- is another story), so I am more concerned about such "solutions" that would screw my class than about some minor changes that could enhance it (like Purify or Clear Mind).
If you think about the problem of lack of support classes in the game in general, there are the following concerns:
1. High-risk areas which require good fully-conscious large teams don't give enough rewards, especially at lower levels (L-room is ok, though :D). And these rewards should be XP related, but moreso economic and clan point related. And there should be no rewards just for sheer number of the toons in the groups or for some particular group builds; the rewards should depend on actual performance of a group in high-risk conditions.
2. In the current game, buffs are overpowered, active support is underpowered. It concerns both PvP and PvE. Instead of giving all the buffs to all, it would be better to nerf some buffs and to give buffers some active skills relevant to both PvP and PvE. Like Hex, Gloom, elemental surrenders... The old skills like Windshackle and hates need to be reconsidered to be more useful.
3. Part of the problem why it's hard for both supports and DDs to find groups is lack of non-grinding non-ganking everyday content in the game. It could be good if instead of sitting on you bottom and waiting for your group (or of grinding solo dreaming of a buffbox) you could actually do something useful in towns while keeping your record in the party matching window or waiting for your clannies. There are only 2 kinds of such useful (or barely useful) everyday activities now: shopping and fishing. There need to be more of them.
4. "Balancing" the whole L2 around some 1vs1 is just plain stupid. Please don't do it anymore.
55- EE is painful but doable at the moment. <waves and disappears again> I'm glad to know it's going to get better, but I'm not so unhappy with my class on a whole. :)
1. High-risk areas which require good fully-conscious large teams don't give enough rewards, especially at lower levels
A problem for live healers, buffers and tanks alike.
Make debuffs and cure more important - this draws live support into groups and boosts tanks at the same time. And then make these parties good.
Let people solo with their buffboxes, just don't make it the fastest exp in the game - and don't make it good money. Groups should be financially and exp-rewarding for the effort they take to put together.
3. Very true - although I don't know what kind of content this could be other than tradeskills, and those should by all rights be dwarven only. :<
Let people solo with their buffboxes, just don't make it the fastest exp in the game - and don't make it good money. Groups should be financially and exp-rewarding for the effort they take to put together.
how exactly do you balance the econmic side of xp parties though?
while a nuker or archer might be able to have 3 or 4 ppl in party and still break even most melee will struggle in a duo even if the other guy is actually doing damage
how exactly do you balance the econmic side of xp parties though?
while a nuker or archer might be able to have 3 or 4 ppl in party and still break even most melee will struggle in a duo even if the other guy is actually doing damage
Maybe with something like Devil's Pass but with really good spoils?
I suggest you read BigHands OP again...You are expressing concern on points which he identified as being Problems...Not solutions and quote part of his answer which is a complex essay of cause and effect with a suggestion on HOW it could be fixed with a question towards the readers to give feedback as well.
No, I'm speaking about his "solution". Which is:
1. "Balance" classes' PvE around their 1v1 fullbuffed PvP.
2. Make buffshops available to all DDs, not only to the ones with clanhalls.
3. Give supports some PvP debuffs to "compensate" for their intended uselessness in PvE after (1) and (2) are implemented.
Have I missed anything?
What would you suggest towars your class (considering you play a support class) and what are (according to you) the problems of the game that spoil your progress, your class' needs and your fun?
My class is fine as it is (at least at mid- and highlevels; 55- is another story), so I am more concerned about such "solutions" that would screw my class than about some minor changes that could enhance it (like Purify or Clear Mind).
If you think about the problem of lack of support classes in the game in general, there are the following concerns:
1. High-risk areas which require good fully-conscious large teams don't give enough rewards, especially at lower levels (L-room is ok, though :D). And these rewards should be XP related, but moreso economic and clan point related. And there should be no rewards just for sheer number of the toons in the groups or for some particular group builds; the rewards should depend on actual performance of a group in high-risk conditions.
2. In the current game, buffs are overpowered, active support is underpowered. It concerns both PvP and PvE. Instead of giving all the buffs to all, it would be better to nerf some buffs and to give buffers some active skills relevant to both PvP and PvE. Like Hex, Gloom, elemental surrenders... The old skills like Windshackle and hates need to be reconsidered to be more useful.
3. Part of the problem why it's hard for both supports and DDs to find groups is lack of non-grinding non-ganking everyday content in the game. It could be good if instead of sitting on you bottom and waiting for your group (or of grinding solo dreaming of a buffbox) you could actually do something useful in towns while keeping your record in the party matching window or waiting for your clannies. There are only 2 kinds of such useful (or barely useful) everyday activities now: shopping and fishing. There need to be more of them.
4. "Balancing" the whole L2 around some 1vs1 is just plain stupid. Please don't do it anymore.
Nope you didn't miss anything out...On the PvP Balancing I had not seen it in optic of 1v1 (well at least it didn't seem it was that which Big ment in his overall view) and I couldn't agree more on point 4.
Your suggestion in point 2 seems to coincide with certain parts of Bighand's suggestion. Again at least that is what I got out of that OP. Indeed it would be a step forward if that part was looked into it would give support classes a nice edge.
What point 3 is concerned, I don't exactly understand what you mean with this suggestion. Could you explain a bit more what exactly you see?
Let's consider the model where are 2 types of players looking for each other: DDs and supports (the reality is a bit more complex, but follows the same principle).
Even when there is a matching overall amount of DD and support accounts in the game, the ratio of DDs/supports looking for each other in each particular point of time will usually not be ideal. If you don't have a matching pair, you either:
1. idly wait for it;
2. switch to another activity while waiting for your pair;
3. switch to another activity permanently.
(1) is boring.
(3) is available to both DDs (getting a box) and supports (rerolling), but makes the overall situation worse.
(2) is somewhat available to both (soloing in solo areas or switching to an alt), but currently will eventually lead to (3).
What we need is some (2)-like activities which don't lead to (3) and are easy to postpone when a pair is found. Like fishing, but more diverse, and maybe much more socializing. These activities might give economic benefits, SP, clan points, but should not give any XP.
Let's consider the model where are 2 types of players looking for each other: DDs and supports (the reality is a bit more complex, but follows the same principle).
Even when there is a matching overall amount of DD and support accounts in the game, the ratio of DDs/supports looking for each other in each particular point of time will usually not be ideal. If you don't have a matching pair, you either:
1. idly wait for it;
2. switch to another activity while waiting for your pair;
3. switch to another activity permanently.
(1) is boring.
(3) is available to both DDs (getting a box) and supports (rerolling), but makes the overall situation worse.
(2) is somewhat available to both (soloing in solo areas or switching to an alt), but currently will eventually lead to (3).
What we need is some (2)-like activities which don't lead to (3) and are easy to postpone when a pair is found. Like fishing, but more diverse, and maybe much more socializing. These activities might give economic benefits, SP, clan points, but should not give any XP.
Roger, now I follow the thought :)
Something worth thinking over indeed. Thx for explaining
I suggest you read BigHands OP again...You are expressing concern on points which he identified as being Problems...Not solutions and quote part of his answer which is a complex essay of cause and effect with a suggestion on HOW it could be fixed with a question towards the readers to give feedback as well.
No, I'm speaking about his "solution". Which is:
1. "Balance" classes' PvE around their 1v1 fullbuffed PvP.
2. Make buffshops available to all DDs, not only to the ones with clanhalls.
3. Give supports some PvP debuffs to "compensate" for their intended uselessness in PvE after (1) and (2) are implemented.
Have I missed anything?
What would you suggest towars your class (considering you play a support class) and what are (according to you) the problems of the game that spoil your progress, your class' needs and your fun?
My class is fine as it is (at least at mid- and highlevels; 55- is another story), so I am more concerned about such "solutions" that would screw my class than about some minor changes that could enhance it (like Purify or Clear Mind).
If you think about the problem of lack of support classes in the game in general, there are the following concerns:
1. High-risk areas which require good fully-conscious large teams don't give enough rewards, especially at lower levels (L-room is ok, though :D). And these rewards should be XP related, but moreso economic and clan point related. And there should be no rewards just for sheer number of the toons in the groups or for some particular group builds; the rewards should depend on actual performance of a group in high-risk conditions.
2. In the current game, buffs are overpowered, active support is underpowered. It concerns both PvP and PvE. Instead of giving all the buffs to all, it would be better to nerf some buffs and to give buffers some active skills relevant to both PvP and PvE. Like Hex, Gloom, elemental surrenders... The old skills like Windshackle and hates need to be reconsidered to be more useful.
3. Part of the problem why it's hard for both supports and DDs to find groups is lack of non-grinding non-ganking everyday content in the game. It could be good if instead of sitting on you bottom and waiting for your group (or of grinding solo dreaming of a buffbox) you could actually do something useful in towns while keeping your record in the party matching window or waiting for your clannies. There are only 2 kinds of such useful (or barely useful) everyday activities now: shopping and fishing. There need to be more of them.
4. "Balancing" the whole L2 around some 1vs1 is just plain stupid. Please don't do it anymore.
I like the RPS system of balancing, and I think it is the proper way to balance an MMO. To try and balance every single class against each other class is just going to end up reducing them all to being the same.
As noted, this is a team based game, and on a team you have different positions, each with individual goals. Same thing in L2.
Now then. If the Olympiad is balanced RPS style, taking into a ccount full buffs, the end result will be that a Fully buffed prophet will kill a fully buffed mage most of the time. Same thing with a fully buffed tank killing a fully buffed archer.
The end result is that in day to day PvP, the team who shows up and is balanced, and has a player or two in each position will most likely kill the team that consists of all offense. It also means, that your team had better have a couple of played Def Mages in order to take out the enemy mages, and to help support the other members of your team.
Assuming that the game is balanced RPS taking into account full buffs, you now have the ability to do some very cool stuff with regards to PvE. In case you haven't noticed, the mobs mirror the player classes for the most part. There are archers, tanks, nukers, even buffers. If the Dev's do just a bit of tweaking in order to make this even more pronounced, you have now opened up some very interesting things for the players. For example, Defensive Mages - they are balanced to kill offensive mage, so if this is all done properly, they should now be able to effectively solo on Offensive Mage type mobs.
Look closely at Beast Farm, VoS, FoD, WoA, and the Hot Springs, and you will see that the Dev's have already done some of what I suggest. Each of those areas is a great solo ground for a couple of different player class types.
They could extend this, if their AI is good enough to actually have parties of mobs in Dungeons, where they are meant to fight parties of characters. I used to love fighting the PlainsLord groups near Oren - 1 Lord, 1 Archer, 1 Shaman, 1 Soldier.. It doesn't take alot of AI on the mob side to make this work, but all of a sudden the players would have to start using their brains to PvE.
I outlined what it would take to make it all work, and yes, the Defensive Mages will need some work. As it stands though, most of them are primarily buffers, secondary healers, and a long third they are debuffers & crowd controllers. I suggest changing that to where they are primarily Debuffers & Crowd controllers, secondarily healers, and lastly buffers.
See the difference?
All of a sudden, it would be possible for a defensive mage to run out to FoD, look for an enemy mage, and smoke his *** 1v1. We would move away from the days of "If ya want to kill people play an archer or a nuker, and box a prophet or an SE, or both."
Make sence to me Big, did get most of what you wanted to make clear then in your OP...However I lack the techno knowledge to fully understand the whole mechanics...
Let's consider the model where are 2 types of players looking for each other: DDs and supports (the reality is a bit more complex, but follows the same principle).
Even when there is a matching overall amount of DD and support accounts in the game, the ratio of DDs/supports looking for each other in each particular point of time will usually not be ideal. If you don't have a matching pair, you either:
1. idly wait for it;
2. switch to another activity while waiting for your pair;
3. switch to another activity permanently.
(1) is boring.
(3) is available to both DDs (getting a box) and supports (rerolling), but makes the overall situation worse.
(2) is somewhat available to both (soloing in solo areas or switching to an alt), but currently will eventually lead to (3).
What we need is some (2)-like activities which don't lead to (3) and are easy to postpone when a pair is found. Like fishing, but more diverse, and maybe much more socializing. These activities might give economic benefits, SP, clan points, but should not give any XP.
Under the changes I talked about, each class is a DD to another specific kind of class. If the mobs are setup to reflect the player classes, then each class has an area they can easily solo.
Wouldn't you like the option to solo until your DD friend logs in so that you can go and duo?
I also recognize that the game mechanics need work in the area of how much reward should be given for soloing, duoing, grouping, etc, etc. But that is a topic for another thread.
Let people solo with their buffboxes, just don't make it the fastest exp in the game - and don't make it good money. Groups should be financially and exp-rewarding for the effort they take to put together.
how exactly do you balance the econmic side of xp parties though?
while a nuker or archer might be able to have 3 or 4 ppl in party and still break even most melee will struggle in a duo even if the other guy is actually doing damage
If they went with my idea, the economic side of a party evens itself out automatically, because the responsibility for hurting the enemy mobs is more evenly distributed across the party. Rather than sitting there for 20 mins regenning, your Proph might be using his mp (and shots) to CC, ManaBurn, or debuff, all of which will be just as important to the group as the archer standing there shooting arrows.
The economics of L2 as it stands are already extremely balanced IMO. I say this because the majority of people, including myself as a BH, do not make money hunting. We spend money to hunt. We make our money in other ways - quests, crafting, buying/sell, etc, etc. It is a very good model, because it gets every single player involved in the economy.
It is also worth considering that when you hunt with your oop SE, that you are actually duoing, except you are keeping all of the money and XP for yourself.
In the short run, it appears to be great, you make twice the money, and twice the xp.
In the long run, you are going to reach a point where you will wish you had those high level buffs, but because the buffer was OOP you don't. In addition, it's still your SE, and you are still going to have to buy it new gear from time to time.
It is something of an illusion that you make more xp and more money while soloing with your buffer OOP.
Under the changes I talked about, each class is a DD to another specific kind of class. If the mobs are setup to reflect the player classes, then each class has an area they can easily solo.
You don't "easily" kill others at Olympiads. And you don't want to bring Olympiad-killing times and efforts into regular PvE and sieges. And even if you managed to do it, you still could not achieve balance in many vs. many, because some classes have AoE attacks and/or party protect skills, and others don't.
Wouldn't you like the option to solo until your DD friend logs in so that you can go and duo?
There is no "would".
I already have this option, and for better XP and profits than some of my duos, trios or whatever. And I don't like it, even if I sometimes use it to, say, level a soul crystal for my clannie. It's boring.
If I wanted to exp or gank solo, I would pick some other class than EE as my main. Do you understand that?
Under the changes I talked about, each class is a DD to another specific kind of class. If the mobs are setup to reflect the player classes, then each class has an area they can easily solo.
You don't "easily" kill others at Olympiads. And you don't want to bring Olympiad-killing times and efforts into regular PvE and sieges. And even if you managed to do it, you still could not achieve balance in many vs. many, because some classes have AoE attacks and/or party protect skills, and others don't.
Wouldn't you like the option to solo until your DD friend logs in so that you can go and duo?
There is no "would".
I already have this option, and for better XP and profits than some of my duos, trios or whatever. And I don't like it, even if I sometimes use it to, say, level a soul crystal for my clannie. It's boring.
If I wanted to exp or gank solo, I would pick some other class than EE as my main. Do you understand that?
You do realize that you are the in the minority right? Played EE's are pretty few and far between. I do appreciate that you enjoy playing your class, but for every one person like you, there are 10 more EE's that are being boxxed.
They are being boxxed because the vast majority do not enjoy playing the class.
You do also realize that the game changes the higher level you get? Most classes can solo somewhat effectively until about lvl 65. At that point, only Archers, Mages, and the extremely masochistic solo. In all honesty archers and mages don't even solo, they typically bring a boxxed buffer or clan hall buffs.
We can argue all day about whether your class is fine the way it is or not, but the proof is right there in front of every one of us. How many played EE's are there?
I can tell by your posts that you have very little PvP experience, and that you have no experience at the high end of the game. The majority of high level healers hate PvP the way it is right now. Do you know why? Because most people are dead before you can even target them and cast heal. PvP needs to be slowed down, and Olympiad pace would be just fine. What's wrong with a PvP lasting 3 or 4 minutes? Your class actually regains it's usefullness under that scenario.
As for mass PvP. Scale makes only a slight bit of difference in the amount of time the battle goes on for. Most 9vs9's are not much longer than a 1v1, and I was at a siege last weekend where it was about 100vs30, and each rush only lasted about 2 or 3 minutes.
I strongly suspect that your feelings on all of this will change within a short period of time. Most likely about 2 minutes after you see every member of your party get 2 or 3 shotted, and you yourself get 1 shotted.
When you see a group of classes that are almost totally unplayed, and are relegated to being boxxed, it is a huge glowing neon sign that something is wrong.
I don't want more buffs. More buffs = more boxes = more competition for my unique buffs. I think the EE has one of the best buffsets a buffer can have simply because
A) it contains mostly unique buffs (BtSh, AdvBl, Clarity, Resist Shock)
B) it is defensive, and therefore not sought after in groups
C) it does not make an EE worth boxing, therefore makes the unique buffs the class does have more rare and desirable, opening up the way into live groups.
If I wanted to exp or gank solo, I would pick some other class than EE as my main. Do you understand that?
You do realize that you are the in the minority right? Played EE's are pretty few and far between. I do appreciate that you enjoy playing your class, but for every one person like you, there are 10 more EE's that are being boxxed.
They are being boxxed because the vast majority do not enjoy playing the class.
Hello? If you know nothing about the class, please stop making suggestions about have to "improve" its gameplay.
You do also realize that the game changes the higher level you get?
I've healed a group of mostly 6x archers in IT L-room. They were happy (crappy XP for me, btw, but lots of fun). Try to do that on a box.
We can argue all day about whether your class is fine the way it is or not, but the proof is right there in front of every one of us. How many played EE's are there?
Well... still much more than boxed?
And how many will be played if you will give every class the ability of "effectively" solo up to 80?
"Effectively" - as based on their ability to survive in Olympiads, which means "efficiently" for DDs, but "painfully slow but amasingly survivable" for classes that can heal themselves.
I can tell by your posts that you have very little PvP experience, and that you have no experience at the high end of the game. The majority of high level healers hate PvP the way it is right now. Do you know why?
Sure. Mainly because if they are good healers and are expected to interfere, they are the first target. I guess you think it's because they can manaburn some mages and then whack them with some dagger, right?
PvP needs to be slowed down, and Olympiad pace would be just fine. What's wrong with a PvP lasting 3 or 4 minutes?
And how long a siege will take at these rates?
As for mass PvP. Scale makes only a slight bit of difference in the amount of time the battle goes on for. Most 9vs9's are not much longer than a 1v1, and I was at a siege last weekend where it was about 100vs30, and each rush only lasted about 2 or 3 minutes.
And how long would you want them?
I strongly suspect that your feelings on all of this will change within a short period of time. Most likely about 2 minutes after you see every member of your party get 2 or 3 shotted, and you yourself get 1 shotted.
Hello? If they are after the whole my group, they will shot me first. And there is nothing you can do by "balancing" a healer against the archer gank squad based on some Olympiad "RPS".
Depends on what type of group you are in. I guarantee if you are in a stacked archer or mage group, who get 900 range between then and the enemy (or 1200 with snipe), and you are 500 range behind them, they'll be worrying more about an [censored] full of arrows/nukes before the healer. I have all kinds of "boring" healer siege videos proving it.
Yep - but how is ganked is, if you look around a little, very different from server to server - just, for example, how many buffs someone takes when they go ganking makes a huge difference.
Ah, I see. No, we don't have a dominating all-hero alliance whose archers gank only when they have CoV on them. But if you have one, how would you dare to say that 1vs1 "balance" means anything in your game?
You do realize that you are the in the minority right? Played EE's are pretty few and far between. I do appreciate that you enjoy playing your class, but for every one person like you, there are 10 more EE's that are being boxxed.
They are being boxxed because the vast majority do not enjoy playing the class.
Hello? If you know nothing about the class, please stop making suggestions about have to "improve" its gameplay.
So far your experience in L2 is the equivalent of reading the first chapter of a novel. I understand that you enjoy being one of the very few who play the class, and that you would like to stay that way by keeping your class broken. I suggest that you look around and actually listen to the other high level EE's in the community. As near as I have seen in 3 years, you are the first to say your class needs no changes and is great just like it is. LOL
You do also realize that the game changes the higher level you get?
I've healed a group of mostly 6x archers in IT L-room. They were happy (crappy XP for me, btw, but lots of fun). Try to do that on a box.
What the hell is a party of 6x archers doing fighting lvl 80ish mobs? Thank you for making my entire case for me. So tell me, how many oop boxed buffers where with you?
We can argue all day about whether your class is fine the way it is or not, but the proof is right there in front of every one of us. How many played EE's are there?
Well... still much more than boxed?
And how many will be played if you will give every class the ability of "effectively" solo up to 80?
"Effectively" - as based on their ability to survive in Olympiads, which means "efficiently" for DDs, but "painfully slow but amasingly survivable" for classes that can heal themselves.
You are trying to put words in my mouth. If every class can effectively solo, does that somehow imply that no one will group? Of course not, that's a stupid conclusion to draw. The fact is, almost no one truely solo's anyhow, because boxxed buffers and clan hall buffs mean that the person is not soloing. Now then, if there were more people playing buffers and the buffer's roles were changed so that buffs were not thier number 1 focus, but instead they brought something else important to the party, would those classes have trouble finding groups? Of course they wouldn't, they'd get groups immediately for everything else they bring and their buffs.
I can tell by your posts that you have very little PvP experience, and that you have no experience at the high end of the game. The majority of high level healers hate PvP the way it is right now. Do you know why?
Sure. Mainly because if they are good healers and are expected to interfere, they are the first target. I guess you think it's because they can manaburn some mages and then whack them with some dagger, right?
You are dead wrong, and on top of that you cut out my explanation for why.
At high levels, damage output is so great (because of buffs) that you don't get to heal, your party members will be dead before you can even target them. This is the #1 complaint of high level healers, they never get to heal. Most people don't even bother targetting the healer first, because he can't do [censored] anyways except for rez.
PvP needs to be slowed down, and Olympiad pace would be just fine. What's wrong with a PvP lasting 3 or 4 minutes?
And how long a siege will take at these rates?
You're killing me. lol Sieges last for 2 hours regardless. Again you ignored my explanation, of why, but since you seem a bit slow, I will repeat myself.
The scale of the battle has very small impact on the amount of time the encounter lasts for. A 9v9 takes only a few seconds longer than a 1v1, and a large scale encounter, 100v100 only takes a minute or two longer than that.
In case you were wondering, I am speaking with the experience of someone whose ally holds Rune and Innandril. We've had Rune for 2 months, and Innandril for 11 months. I've lead my alliance in more than 50 sieges, and my clan in more than 100. Please, share your experiences with sieging and mass PvP so I can have some insight on what knowledge you are drawing your conclusions from.
As for mass PvP. Scale makes only a slight bit of difference in the amount of time the battle goes on for. Most 9vs9's are not much longer than a 1v1, and I was at a siege last weekend where it was about 100vs30, and each rush only lasted about 2 or 3 minutes.
And how long would you want them?
Let's give this some thought. If the balance is based off of the Olympiad 1v1, which lasts 3 minutes, then we could say that a 9v9 would last approximately 4 minutes, and a 100vs100 would last maybe 6 to 10 minutes.
As it stands now, the olympiad lasts 3 minutes, 9v9 lasts about 40 seconds, and 100v100 maybe will stretch to 3 minutes if there is alot of kiting going on.
I strongly suspect that your feelings on all of this will change within a short period of time. Most likely about 2 minutes after you see every member of your party get 2 or 3 shotted, and you yourself get 1 shotted.
Hello? If they are after the whole my group, they will shot me first. And there is nothing you can do by "balancing" a healer against the archer gank squad based on some Olympiad "RPS".
ROFL.. Typically the only time an EE is killed first is when there is concern that the enemy will PR. Listen to your fellow EE's. High level PvP is about 2 shotting people. I don't give a [censored] how good you think you are, there is no saving someone who is getting hit for 4-6k damage per hit. There is one exception. If you are being attacked by a melee party, then healers can do a great job, because the damage output is so low from the melee party. At the end game, you go for the enemy DD's first, not the healer.
In the past, there used to be alot of threads from people asking for more to be given to the support classes. Those threads have pretty much gone away, not because the classes are fixed, but because so few people play them.
Ah, I see. No, we don't have a dominating all-hero alliance whose archers gank only when they have CoV on them. But if you have one, how would you dare to say that 1vs1 "balance" means anything in your game?
No, you are wrong. Most ganks are either archers or mages with clan hall buffs, and maybe one or two extras going out and killing the people who are supposed to be able to kill them according to the RPS model.
Not many use CoV for ganking, because of the low duration of it.
Speaking for my clan/ally, there is PvP on a group on group scale nightly. Typically whoever brings the most mages and archers wins.
Why? Because PvP with full buffs is completely unbalanced, the moronic game designers have balance PvP based around the Olympiad.
Which is why, I said, "Balance PvP based on full buffs."
1v1 will never be balanced unless the two people are the same class, it is not meant to be. But if each class has another that it is strong against, and one that it is weak against, then all of a sudden PvP is balanced based on how you build your PvP group .
Is it to much to see someone from the development team in here discussing the issue right along with the players. Or is that to much to ask for? :confused:
Is it to much to see someone from the development team in here discussing the issue right along with the players. Or is that to much to ask for? :confused:
Is it to much to see someone from the development team in here discussing the issue right along with the players. Or is that to much to ask for? :confused:
It's not very realistic unfortunately. I do believe that threads like these do get to the attention of some of the designers in one fashion or another though, which is why I made it.
We have seen things implemented into the game that were discussed in the forums. Whether or not the same discussions were going on in Korea and that's where they got the idea, or whether they came from our forums, we'll never know.
Also trying to add stuff that both Korea and NA servers would agree on is hard. Look at the different playstle in Korean servers compared to NA servers. There are alot of things that Koreans have that we do not, but is there anything that we have that they do not? The way I see it the game will revovle around what the Koreans want more then NA players want.
Well, there is some change in our near future (Interlude), and I'll be the first to admit that radical changes are not a great idea for a game developer.
What I've called for is something that would need to be implemented over at least a couple of chronicles, and maybe an update or two in between.
If you change to much at once, it makes people freak out, which is bad.
They are being boxxed because the vast majority do not enjoy playing the class.
Hello? If you know nothing about the class, please stop making suggestions about have to "improve" its gameplay.
So far your experience in L2 is the equivalent of reading the first chapter of a novel.
Not really. More like reading a tome from an encyclopedia. And I guess you have never really looked into that tome. Where do you say you've got your 10 boxed EEs per 1 live one?
And I have some extra experience. Experience in designing complex systems in particular.
I understand that you enjoy being one of the very few who play the class, and that you would like to stay that way by keeping your class broken. I suggest that you look around and actually listen to the other high level EE's in the community. As near as I have seen in 3 years, you are the first to say your class needs no changes and is great just like it is.
Then maybe you have heard nothing from them since C5 started? Because now they say exactly that.
I've healed a group of mostly 6x archers in IT L-room. They were happy (crappy XP for me, btw, but lots of fun). Try to do that on a box.
What the hell is a party of 6x archers doing fighting lvl 80ish mobs? Thank you for making my entire case for me. So tell me, how many oop boxed buffers where with you?
One IP Warcryer. 7x, though. And it doesn't mean that I wasn't there with more highlevel party setup (and with regular mass-pulls from the adjacent room too). But 6x archers with non-OEd BoPs and, I'd guess, matching jewels usually aren't very happy when receiving magic crits from "lvl 80ish mob".
So, are you ready to repeat that on a box?
And how many will be played if you will give every class the ability of "effectively" solo up to 80?
"Effectively" - as based on their ability to survive in Olympiads, which means "efficiently" for DDs, but "painfully slow but amasingly survivable" for classes that can heal themselves.
You are trying to put words in my mouth.
Unfortunately, not. I'm telling you what would happen if the current problem (which you were stated correctly) would be tried to "fix" in your way. I am not telling you what you think would happen, I'm telling you what would really happen. Understand?
If every class can effectively solo, does that somehow imply that no one will group?
As long as you haven't even tried to solve the problem why people prefer to solo (and only then prefer to solo with some OOP buffs), the ones who doesn't group now will indeed not group.
Now then, if there were more people playing buffers
Hello? More people playing buffers because lvl 78 Hierophants can pwn a soloing mage that forgot to carry BSoE?
and the buffer's roles were changed so that buffs were not thier number 1 focus, but instead they brought something else important to the party, would those classes have trouble finding groups?
Exactly for the same reasons why Bishops and EEs could not find groups in C2-C4? Because all their good abilities weren't needed in exping group? Because groups without them were good enough?
Which is exactly what you are actually proposing for solo players so far. Even if you don't understand it yet.
Of course they wouldn't, they'd get groups immediately for everything else they bring and their buffs.
As "immediately" as EEs did in C4? A debuffer/crowd controller first, a healer second, a buffer way third, all that you wanted from your "buffers" in your schemes... and still not getting groups?
At high levels, damage output is so great (because of buffs) that you don't get to heal, your party members will be dead before you can even target them.
I don't need to target anyone for PR.
PvP needs to be slowed down, and Olympiad pace would be just fine. What's wrong with a PvP lasting 3 or 4 minutes?
And how long a siege will take at these rates?
You're killing me.
No, I'm just trying to make you think a bit instead of just telling banalities.
Sieges last for 2 hours regardless.
With the same number of rushes? You are kidding.
Or do you prefer that those who captured them first could hold them forever unless the whole server is against them?
As for mass PvP. Scale makes only a slight bit of difference in the amount of time the battle goes on for. Most 9vs9's are not much longer than a 1v1, and I was at a siege last weekend where it was about 100vs30, and each rush only lasted about 2 or 3 minutes.
And how long would you want them?
Let's give this some thought. If the balance is based off of the Olympiad 1v1, which lasts 3 minutes, then we could say that a 9v9 would last approximately 4 minutes, and a 100vs100 would last maybe 6 to 10 minutes.
But what if your healers would actually heal someone with their group heals instead of manaburning their enemies? If it would still be just only 25% longer that 1v1... well, why would they have any use in PvE?
In the past, there used to be alot of threads from people asking for more to be given to the support classes. Those threads have pretty much gone away, not because the classes are fixed, but because so few people play them.
Or because you aren't looking? I see quite a lot of recent threads from SEs how Bishops and EEs own them in highlevel PvE since C5.
funny i play this game quite long now you know how many times i have encountered a EE 2 times think they where even boxed to i seen lot of clans never seen a EE in a clan i will say they are theoraticaly extinct if their are 50 EE on DEV i think it will be a LOT lol still not saying their is something not wrong with a EE?
How many bishops do you know, Abisha? How many OLs? How many prophet mains? (High level boxes and shared buffers or bought accounts don't count.)
Healers and support-centric live characters are rare.
That is because PvE groups are just fine without them.
From level 20 on there should be 'pinch' dungeons with greater rewards that require a group that plays well and has a tank, a healer and a buffer - then we'd see more healers.
I have been very fortunate with parties, and I like soloing to begin with. That is the perfect environment for a healer to grow in (because you will HAVE to solo a fair bit of the way - until you're good enough). Not everyone has that, so most reroll before they get very far - or decide to box the healer instead.
well OL are preaty rare to box Meline sinds their buffs are not as good as WC but so weird it sounds i see OL on daily base seen a lot of them god knows what they see in it and i not talking about OL that are boxed
ROFL nice job with the quoting. I could go through and do it again, but it's not worth the time.
We'll chalk it up to agreeing to disagree.
There are a few things in that mess that I would like to point out though:
Unfortunately, not. I'm telling you what would happen if the current problem (which you were stated correctly) would be tried to "fix" in your way. I am not telling you what you think would happen, I'm telling you what would really happen. Understand?
So umm.. I only think I know, but you know for sure. okayyy
As long as you haven't even tried to solve the problem why people prefer to solo (and only then prefer to solo with some OOP buffs), the ones who doesn't group now will indeed not group.
People who don't group do it either because the XP is better solo or because they simply don't like to group. Go back and you will see that I specifically mentioned that this issue is an issue for a whole nother thread. Since you keep bringing it up though, let's break it down. People who don't like to group are not going to do so, no matter what changes you make to the game. If you try and force them, they will just find another game.
So.. what about the people who solo just because the XP is better. That's pretty **** easy to fix. Hell it was only a couple chronicles ago when they changed it so that solo XP was better than group XP. A simple modification to the group bonus is all it takes. Another option would be to give the classes that currently take XP in group, but provide their exact same services out of group more of a reason to be in the group. Give the support classes something more to bring to the table, so that there is a reason to group them.
As it stand though, even in a group, the best xp is a couple oop buffers, and maybe a healer. Realistically, I've been in plenty of groups with my boxxed buffer as the only healer and it works just fine.
I did touch on PvE in that if the current support classes are changed they all of a sudden have more to do than buff and drop the occasional heal. If you're all set with sitting and healing every now and again and buffing every 20 mins, then that's cool.
The bottom line is that the majority of people don't like that style of play, which is why there are so few played buffer/healers. Apparently your theory that the class is fine, is not quite accurate. What you mean to say is that your class is fine with you, even though most other people don't care for it.
well big
when i party with more then 3 people i just loss tons of aden's "no dont even try not to use SS you be hanged or PK on sight" and XP are even wurse then solo x1 most of the time i party for social things not becose it's easyer or give's massive adena's dont even start with RAIDS
How many bishops do you know, Abisha? How many OLs? How many prophet mains? (High level boxes and shared buffers or bought accounts don't count.)
Healers and support-centric live characters are rare.
That is because PvE groups are just fine without them.
From level 20 on there should be 'pinch' dungeons with greater rewards that require a group that plays well and has a tank, a healer and a buffer - then we'd see more healers.
I have been very fortunate with parties, and I like soloing to begin with. That is the perfect environment for a healer to grow in (because you will HAVE to solo a fair bit of the way - until you're good enough). Not everyone has that, so most reroll before they get very far - or decide to box the healer instead.
I don't think your statement is exactly accurate Maline. Way back in Prelude and C1, grouping was the best XP and it was all the rage. Remember CT, when people didn't even use shots to level??
There were not nearly enough buffers or healers even then, and groups used to sit in CT begging for them. Literally begging and shouting for a healer for hours and hours. I remember when DD's would sit in the lobby for 2 or 3 hours waiting for a spot to open up, but if a healer walked in, those ******** got a group on their first shout. If your group actually got a prophet in it, it was like a wet dream.
Back then, if you didn't have a healer, you were screwed, most people didn't even try to make a group without a healer.
You didn't see any more of them than you do now. The only difference is that with the addition of the macro system, people started boxxing them in order to fulfill their needs.
The bottom line is that the classes do not appeal to most people. The boxxes did not drive out the real players, the boxxes filled the spots that the real players were unwilling to fill.
In my ally, like I said, we have approx 100-120 real players. We have 2 EE's, 2 Bish's, 2 OL's, 1 Proph. All are 70+, and all get a group every time they ask. We have 0 played SE's, although we used to have a couple and they got groups any time they asked. True enough, it wasn't all the time, but none of us get a group all the time, sometimes there just isn't a group going. We as a clan and ally would LOVE to have more played buffers/healers, but there simply are none to recruit.
The support classes are not rare because they aren't needed, they are rare because most people (who like to play L2) do not like playing them.
well big
when i party with more then 3 people i just loss tons of aden's "no dont even try not to use SS you be hanged or PK on sight" and XP are even wurse then solo x1 most of the time i party for social things not becose it's easyer or give's massive adena's dont even start with RAIDS
XPing is not a way to make money, it is a way to spend money. Make your money in other ways... quests, buy low/sell high, make shots, watch for deals, fishing.. there are many ways.
The biggest tip I can give you. Make money when you are AFK, spend money to XP while you are at the keyboard.
hmm i dont know what county you life in but here in netherlands it's considered "a Crime to leave your PC on" while you not behind it witch comes back to a topic i make months ago about Lineage 2 and Power trow away for bad programing becose they be ****ed to make a Sellable Off line program for Lineage 2
Great thread Biggs! A lot of great ideas here. I also like Ellie's thoughts on buffing time ranges being stackable.
I would love to see buffers gain some abilities to defend themselves, but I think healers and buffers should be seperated. PH and SEs should be primary CC and Debuffs, secondary healers and then buffers; where as EE and Bish should be primary healers, secondary debuffers and then defensive buff boosters. Healers should be simaliar to BD and SWS but their buff boosts should be defensive only, not as strong as a BD or SWS and limited to only 2-3 buff boosts since we don't want to take these abilities away from the primary classes that use these as their bread and butter. Maybe we could make the healer's defensive buff boosts into a party cubix simaliar to the Warlock's party cubix but more directed towards defense such as Hp regen, sheild block rate, P. Def, M. Def or healing properties.
And I have some extra experience. Experience in designing complex systems in particular.
Are you trying to design one here in this thread Krissa?
This thread is about what we want to change in L2. Try to point some things that you would like to see changed about your class or any others instead of continueously pointing out what you think is wrong about Bigg's ideas.
Unfortunately, not. I'm telling you what would happen if the current problem (which you were stated correctly) would be tried to "fix" in your way. I am not telling you what you think would happen, I'm telling you what would really happen. Understand?
You can't say this would happen for sure based off a theory someone posted. Wait can you see the future of what things would be like if they went a certian way. If so, can you tell me tomorrow's winning lotto numbers?
Oh and - guess what? Healers weren't required then either. Buffers were. The healers you speak of were primarily prophets, and then, maybe, as a distant second, SEs.
Yes, but I was pointing to the past to support my reasoning that boxxed players are not the cause for the lack of live supports. The boxxes are the result of the lack of live supports.
People who don't group do it either because the XP is better solo or because they simply don't like to group.
Or because it's just easier to go solo than to wait for a matching support. Especially if there is nothing useful to do in the game while waiting. It hits both sides, but as it is generally harder to solo on supports than on DDs, most supports reroll, making it even harder to find them.
Your suggestion doesn't address this problem. In fact, it makes it worse by suggesting even easier soloing for DDs.
So.. what about the people who solo just because the XP is better. That's pretty **** easy to fix. Hell it was only a couple chronicles ago when they changed it so that solo XP was better than group XP. A simple modification to the group bonus is all it takes.
It won't put live buffers in the group, though.
Another option would be to give the classes that currently take XP in group, but provide their exact same services out of group more of a reason to be in the group. Give the support classes something more to bring to the table, so that there is a reason to group them.
Which is a good thing if you can find them regularly. If you cannot, you stop bothering about what they can bring to you, especially if the exp is already good enough.
And one of the problems is: to get better exp with an active healer/debuffer/crowd controller because of their skills (as opposed to get better exp with an inparty box because of boosted party bonus) you usually need to change a hunting spot.
I did touch on PvE in that if the current support classes are changed they all of a sudden have more to do than buff and drop the occasional heal. If you're all set with sitting and healing every now and again and buffing every 20 mins, then that's cool.
I can do much more... when I have MP for it.
When I duo with a nuker in VoS, I usually trance and sometimes recharge, and very rarely heal (and if I start healing instead of trancing, I run out of MP).
When I party with melees on undeads... or just solo on undeads... well, my main problem is not lack of the skills, but lack of MP to use them all. Let's see what Interlude brings.
The bottom line is that the majority of people don't like that style of play, which is why there are so few played buffer/healers.
The majority of people could never know how much C5 EE 56+ can do in PvE, and how fun is the class to actually play it. Because most of the time before they reroll, they don't play the class, they idly sit in a town waiting for any group... or play on their alts.
I never for a second claimed that boxed players have anything to do with the lack of live players... :o
I said that everything that you DO need can be boxed, and that the classes that are hard to box are not 'neccessary' for the most part.
PS: I'd really like to see high difficulty areas with high regeneration rates. We know it's already implemented, but an area where you can and have to use more skills favours healers and tanks.
And I have some extra experience. Experience in designing complex systems in particular.
Are you trying to design one here in this thread Krissa?
Not me, unfortunately. But I did tell what I think could help.
This thread is about what we want to change in L2. Try to point some things that you would like to see changed about your class or any others
Could you please read the thread?
You can't say this would happen for sure based off a theory someone posted. Wait can you see the future of what things would be like if they went a certian way. If so, can you tell me tomorrow's winning lotto numbers?
I don't need to see "the future" to see how the things would go wrong. Don't count your future on winning the tomorrow's lotto, you would must probably be screwed.
But what if your healers would actually heal someone with their group heals instead of manaburning their enemies? If it would still be just only 25% longer that 1v1... well, why would they have any use in PvE?
Does anyone actually try to mana burn enemies in mass pvp? That would be hysterical. And I hope you didn't actually mean greater group heal, your whole party would die before that cracked off. I spam battle heal and it's not even fast enough sometimes.
Heh actually I remember back in C2 or C3 an archer telling me to "spam group heal" at a siege and even then, before drac with focus, CoV, PoW, etc etc there was no time for that.
We were speaking about some hypothetical modification of the game when all the classes had "RPS balance" based on fullbuffed Olympiads. Including healers. And where 1vs1 and 9vs9 fullbuffed lasted minutes.
on top of that i dont wanna be depanding on "a other"
like many people are in game somehow i alwas got this weird luck people "need" to do something after a half hour of groeping or they get DC or [censored] screwing up my game real quick so i made a box by no chooise
their will be never be enough Live players to support all D class's
just some ideas to throw out there, a lot of things were brought up in this thread. some of the "solutions" that im going to suggest are completely crazy and/or go against the "grain" of the game. but i thought id give it a shot.
Olympiad/RPS
its true, the olympiad is broken BECAUSE its a set of 1vs1 matches. its also true as nameless said, that the olympiad is broken becasue it involves a COMPLETELY different set of rules for PvP. one solution that i see, which NC has ALREADY implemented (battle olympiad), is to make olympiad fights 9vs9. allow bsps and cp pots to be used. make it set up just like a real-game PvP with the exception of the element of suprise. THEN balance classes. as a sidenote, i think it would be fun if your team was semi-randomly selected somehow. throw a couple wartags together on the same team, and make them work together, or not, if they choose, against the other team. each person on the winning team gets points, then the teams are reshuffled.
buffs should disappear when the player that gave them to you leaves your party...There needs to be more effective means for support classes to level.
you have good intentions but im going to agree with bighands here. if healers and buffers did more for a party than JUST buffing, there would be a lot more of them that would be live. my idea would be to give buffers self-buff version of the skills they already have, like greater shield stacks with shield, they would stack with "normal" buffs, but pretend greater shield/might doesnt exist for anyone except the buffer. buffs that are powerful enough to allow a healer/buffer to solo, and at the same time make them useful to keep in a party. these self-buffs would obviously cost a TON more mp. another sidenote, though ive said this before and people arent too keen on it, one credit card per account.
Offense power in L2 is too strong compared to defense power...Damage dealing from range needs to be balanced against melee damage dealing...Also, it's pretty broken that melees cannot attack while running. That's a big problem.
this is definately all part of the same issue. it is my opinion that shield defense SHOULD be overpowered in PvP. a hit to your shield should do 1 damage, regardless if the hit was a crit or not. and +3 points of m def should have a much larger effect, dare i say, even a noticable effect, on damage taken from magical attacks. the end goal of this solution leads into something that someone else said, that people that play nukers/archers like to level quickly and pwn people, that is how they play the game and how they have fun and thats all well and good. but people who play melee want to be effective in endgame and they simply are not. a high level tank blocking 95% of your attacks (assuming you are standing in front of them like a noob) are going to be VERY dangerous at endgame if they only take 1 damage from each arrow. mages are not going to be uber in endgame if they fail their spells every fourth time they try to nuke/debuff another mystic. archers and nukers can be easy to level, and melees and healers and tanks can have their endgame. then it will be up to the player, how much time they want to invest.