every class has their faults, its part of the game. Sorcs are awesome in pvp if you know how to play one, and they are sooo freakin easy to lvl. As a sps i still use sleep/ sleeping cloud on an everyday basis ant it always lands. And i agree that their slow run spd is a poor excuse to quit one and i think theres more to it than just their run spd( at least for your reason to quit your sorc).
ok now the dwarf who spams the forums about how crap dwarves are is starting to get bored
can we please get less posts about how sux0r sorcs are in pve and pvp please
tyvm
I really wish most of these n00blets who have obviously never played a Sorcerer to high level would just shut their trap if they have never played one. You know the more you talk about things you obviously have no clue over, the more of a dumb **** you sound like.
Lets just say that high lvl nukes are 4 classes-SpS/SH/Necro/Sorc
Only 1 class ingame has craft and thats warsmith.K?
12k posts=troll Maline
you wanna turn this into a who is more nerfed thread you are in for a world of hurt
only 1 class has a fire nuke. that is unique
every single class can craft, more often than not more efficiently than a warsmith
sorc own at pve, just not as well as sh and necro but still better than sps
sorc own at pvp but its debateable how well they do compared to the other nukers and i bet sh and necro cry for cancell when they come up against a fully buffed opponent
so what exactly are your complaints?
cant hunt effectively without a recharger? guess what at high lvls noone but summoners can
sleep/sleep cloud nerfed? who cares the skills were overpowered maybe if you worked out how to play your class you wouldnt need it in pve
aura burn nerfed? and yet it still manages to outdamage me 2-1 at close range
only 1 nuke? fair enough ill give you that one except for necro you are the only class with 1 unlimited nuke
only 1 vortex at 77? that sux you get your cool skill 1 lvl later than other nukers and only 1 lvl earlier than most other DD in game
kekeke hurts alot?I get fire nuke and fire vortex...1 element.
SH gets dark+wind/SpS gets light+water.
Sorcs are boring to play unlike SHs/Necro because they have skills that change the gameplay (cdl/summon/b2m)
Every class can craft!If you pay the warsmith to do it that is...
And before they made craft shops you had to give a smith 100m + items and hope he doesnt run away with em...yeah right!
Sleep/Sleep cloud were overpowered....okay i dont care.But when you REMOVE skills from a class and add nothing (fear FTL!) what are you left with?No skills=no GAMEplay.
Aura flare?I wouldnt close in on you to cast it-i prefer 900 range tywm.
1 unlimited nuke?Its VERY limiting in pvp actually-just get ressist fire.We cant cast any other while waiting for recharge either...
I hope you know what the difference is between 76 and 77 in XP.If you dont you better go and check.
Are you seriously saying this in the same moment as 'oh but they nerfed this and that'? Yes, wel, before you got nerfed you had no room to complain either.
Sleep and sleep cloud were not removed and are, in fact, still very useable. Sleep is on my bar and remains there. Other nukers have already said that they are still using cloud - maybe you are doing something wrong, or hoping that it should take care of everything for which most other classes need a BSoE?
You can strip resist fire off with a simple surrender, nobody sings Flameguard because you are the only class with fire damage, and yes, I will give you, elemental protection does indeed reduce your damage by 30%.
And yes, nameless knows. On a warsmith - which feels the exp much more keenly than a nuker.
Just to point out that after lvl 75 the exp is hurting badly on all classes.But w/e this is off topic.I got a lvl 75 sorc and quited.nameless and maline-you got no purpose to post anything here.If you have a problem with nukers post it in the 'Nukers are overpowered".
We dont discuss if sorc is good class.Only who quit his.And since both of you dont have 1...well....i would think you should stop spamming here?I know how hard it must be to restrain yourself from increasing your post count.
Stop spamming and get back on topic.Who quit his Sorc?
Nuke!Nuke!Nuke!.....repeat for 18 mobs....sit on ground for 10 minutes OR get little mana and take a risk to kill few more mobs for mana herbs.
NUkers got a "relaxed" grinding...kill some mobs and then wait for mana.Since i dont play a ws i dont know how they lvl (although its not hard to imagine).
All this class hate is ******ed.You play a nuker so your trash.
You play a nuker and everything you say is not taken into account.Its not like i pay the SAME money as you guys to PLAY this game.(actually i dont-nameless has a buff slave so everything hes acomplished is worth 0 to me-when he gets 75 without a buff slave THEN i will consider it)Oh and you know what?I got a lvl 60 BH....guess that doesnt account for anything at all right?After all i have a nuker on my acc...
Hmmm my clan got a CH-good one at that.
Not everyone has a buff slave/CH.You cant balance a class on such grounds.The nerfs on my class which IS SORCERER for those out there that dont know still are already too much.
When someone starts a topic claiming that nukers are overpowered i KNOW this will lead to more nerfs.I DONT want that to happen so ill post till i reach Maline in post count but will NOT give up on opening other players eyes.
Enough nerfs pls.Nukes are getting shield blocked in interlude.Its already too much as it is.STOP IT.
But hey what do i care?I abandoned that class already...i wonder what can i use it for?Too bad im gonna have to make THAT class a n00bless.
Welcome to playing in a MMORPG. Now, for the kids at the back of the class, that haven't been paying attention, that means Massively Multiplayerp Online Role-Playing Game.
Did you see what I did there? I put Multiplayer in italics. Having a hard time soloing? Go get a party, or make friends with a buffer (Hi, I'm an SE. I like chocolates, long walks on a moonlit beach, and getting XP).
If you want to go it alone, go play Mario Bros. or something.
Sorcs had thier time in the sun, same as SPS, did you happen to notice though that SPS is making a comeback as a PvP toon? Cancel is STILL a beast. I'll make this very clear, when we go into mass PvP, we buff against dark attacks and melee damage, not Fire damage. Slow is still an incredibly useful skill. Sorcs still burn me down because Im never prepared against fire damage.
You buff against melee dmg because archers are much more than Sorcs and much more deadly.
You buff against dark attacks because Necros are much more than Sorcs and much harder to kill.
Because of the above 2 reasons and limited buff bar you get surprised by Sorcs and killed.Not because Sorcs are any good-its just alot less dangerous than the others.
So 1 cr cool class and then 11 cr bs?Do you really like that idea?Then NCSoft fails in an attempt to make a good game.
if you think your class is borring now, i think you would have figured this out earlier. like 40 levels ago. in pvp its a fine class since nukers each only use 1 skill in pvp anyways. pve its a lot of sitting, but i sit just as much if not more on my bh, waiting for mp. but compared to other nukers you are right they are lacking balance with sh and necro.
In C3 i made the change from human wiz to sorc.Biggest mistake ever.
Sorcs arent lacking balance just skills.SOMETHING different and unique.
i doubt necros can be balanced with any class.TP on a nuker?best nuke ingame?The best debuffs?I mean come on-twice the HP-1 element (same as sorc)-and great debuffs.
I dont want necros to be nerfed though.I just want NCSoft to add something to my class that would make me play it again.
Oh and i dunno if this is the right place but....CHANGE RB!
See? I participated. Now go /wrist somewhere else.
Not everyone has a buff slave/CH.
Welcome to playing in a MMORPG. Now, for the kids at the back of the class, that haven't been paying attention, that means Massively Multiplayerp Online Role-Playing Game.
Did you see what I did there? I put Multiplayer in italics. Having a hard time soloing? Go get a party, or make friends with a buffer (Hi, I'm an SE. I like chocolates, long walks on a moonlit beach, and getting XP).
If you want to go it alone, go play Mario Bros. or something.
Well, on my Wizard I was originally planning to make him a Sorcerer, but after I had so much fun summoning, I decided to make him a Necromancer. Does that count as "quitting" my sorc?
Nope ^_^
Why didnt you make him a warlock?True summoners>necro imo.
The rest is for the joke:
Did you even READ the thread?I was talking about how there are less and less high lvl SEs with Mulch (i think).Because so many ppl BOX their buffers.Did that sink in?
Now I have problems finding ppl to party (i still find them though) with and im in a clan and ally (we are gonna be lvl 7 soon :)).Now imagine how hard it would be for someone not so fortunate?Got the point?
Oh and if i cant find a group how come i got my sub-lvl 3 ally with the orcs and working on my BD?And AGAIN this is not a post for here.If you got nothing to say about overpowered nukers then dont post.If you said everything you wanted in the thread let it die.
Well first you don't seem able to read, don't seem able to even consider someone else his or her point, only your own nagging truth counts.
What do I care if my sub is FOTM or not? I like my char. Chances are even high you will reroll to one, cause then you can finally be so uber as you always tried to be as Sorcerer but never accomplished.
The fact that you don't come any further then to start calling me names from the start says alot about your attitude. Partially also explains why you have so much trouble finding a party.
If you really wanna know why there are less and less high lvl SE's is because they have utterly zilt use at higher levels. A Sorc can still nuke, an SE doesn't do any damage, all what he or she buffs someone else does better, zilt pvp skills, heals are bad at the least.
Of course you believe only your own, so hey what do I know? Your point has been nagging around these boards for weeks now...go reroll something or go to another game if you dislike it that much. Nobody asks you to play a Sorcerer, nor does anybody makes you keep that oh-so-boring-Sorcerer.
I "rolled" to a BD.Thats my sub.I like it till now.My BH is for spoiling nothing else.Thats her function and purpose and it will ALWAYS be that way.
If they added more skills for BHs to solo.....not very good me thinks.They tried to balance the income of the BH by MAKING them party and share spoil with the rest.
Now dont go on me and start making this thread about BHs i dont care what they add/remove to them.
Imagine youve spent A TON of time (9 months) building up your char getting his equip.Trying to scrape two adena together.Then some stupid thing called C5 and NCSoft decides to make deep class changes this late into the game.
Sudenly everything you made goes to the dogs.I aint happy with it-not at all.
So why dont YOU go play your FOTM reroll and leave my class alone?You dont even HAVE to respond or read my posts either.Again-what do YOU care?Your char is still more overpowered than any nuker can be.Oh and archers dont get nerfs-they only get boosts.
I wont stop comlpaining-you guys stop posting if you are sooooo /care about it.Im here to defend my class from the ignorance of the other players.If you dont like it-dont read it.
Kekeke to think all the forum warriors would crawl out and start posting....maybe its because of Interlude?
ok someone please tell me whats so gimp about sorcs
so far all i hear is "i cant solo" and "i dont rock as hardcore as the other nukers, especially not necro"
your replies so far
noone can solo and yet you solo better than most
you still rock better than most classes
your arguments so far
shut up noob you dont play a 70+ sorc so you dont know jack
ok someone please tell me whats so gimp about sorcs
so far all i hear is "i cant solo" and "i dont rock as hardcore as the other nukers, especially not necro"
I would not say that sorcs are a "gimp" class. Of course sorcs have very good burst damage in pve, and they can "solo" (meaning clan hall buffs or boxed SE sitting somewhere just to give emp/wm) far better than most other classes (with the introduction of herbs it is even halfway possible to really solo, i.e. no outside buffs at all, but you will most likely lose money and it will be quite slow due to mp downtime).
The problems I have with the class are balance within the nuker classes and pvp balance among the ranged "damage dealing" classes.
nuker class balance:
NCSoft nerfed all distinguishing features of the class and gave sorcs nothing as compensation, while at the same time sorcs got shafted when the 76+ skills got introduced. Sorcs and SpS are both AOE nuker classes (sleeping cloud, two AOE skills) - SpS has the faster casting speed, while Sorc has more INT (=matk) and HP.
AOE got nerfed hard with the 20 mob limit, which meant that pure nuker AOE became worthless (you'd need trains of 40+ mobs to make the exp interesting, but that is no longer possible). Trains with less than 20 mobs are only good exp with multi-hp mobs, but that is not practical for mp reasons. So all a AOE nuker can do is try to get into a pole party, but they'd be better off with another pole user. There goes one selling feature of Sorcs (and SpS).
Sorc is supposed to deal more damage than SpS, but they don't. Sure, Sorc has slightly higher matk, but due to the % increase of acumen, SpS has far higher casting speed and can deal more damage in the same time in pvp. And in pve, SpS have the advantage that a HUGE amount (I'd guess about 50%) of the mobs are weak to their overhit skill, solar flare, which means ca. 20-30% more damage. Also (for what it's worth), SpS AOE does more damage than Sorc AOE (frost wall compared to blazing circle).
Another problem is the number of skills. Sorcs have one main nuke, prominence, and one vortex skill at 77. SpS have hydro blast, solar flare, light vortex, ice vortex. That's 4 nukes, and they get their first vortex at 76 - for a non-hardcore player who also plays the subclass, that means one, two, maybe three months of not getting to use a vortex skill on their sorc while a SpS who started the game at the same time already has one, a big advantage in pvp and pve. Same situation for SH, only worse. SH have hurricane, curse death link, death spike, shadow flare, vampiric claw, wind vortex, dark vortex.
I think it is pretty obvious that class balance between the nuker classes is flawed. Even if you think nukers are insanely overpowered in damage dealing compared to say, dwarves - that does not justify why the nukers should not be balanced compared to each other.
As for balance among the ranged damage dealing classes in pvp (i.e. those classes which are supposed to kill people) - I think there is a serious problem with buffs against nuker damage vs. ways to protect against archer damage. Every class can get resist and mdef buffs which reduce nuke damage to 200-300 damage for standard nukes and maybe double that for vortex skills, while only tanks have any realistic way of protecting themselves against archers. Yes, against a badly buffed or unbuffed target nukers deal insane damage. But a standard pvp party WILL be buffed, and even standard high lvl prophet buffs (elemental protection plus magic barrier and one or two other resists) are enough to make nukers hit for WAY less than an archer. I am all for an overall reduction in pvp damage so that the fights take a bit longer and people do not die in two seconds without even being able to target the enemy. But there also has to be a bit of a balance between the various ranged damage classes. This is not only a Sorc problem, but if you consider the balance issues between the nukers I mentioned above and then add pvp against heavily buffed enemies you maybe can see why many sorc players FEEL gimped. Removing some of the insane crit damage buff stacking would help a lot - i.e. bringing archers back down to current nuker damage levels in fully buffed pvp. Saying "well you deal good damage when you're buffed and the other player isn't" is IMO not a valid argument, in the same way as "well SE is good at pre-70 lvl, so it is only fair that other classes are better than them at high levels". In the same way that high lvl is where the game HAS to be balanced, because high lvl PVE and PVP is what everybody is looking forward to, the classes also should be balanced when all the good buffs are used.
First of all Sharlanna marry me ok? Thats the spirit I like to see in people.
Secondly no one here says that Sorcs dont deserve some more skill so they cant be at par with the other nukers. As I stated before I found it utterly stupidity that Sorcs didnt get Solar Flare and Light Vortex.
Now what do I mind? People like Lisail who are going completely EMO about their class preaching how they suck and useless and if you dont play one you have no right to post here bla bla bla.
After playing the game since Open Beta you know a few things about other classes. Heck the best players in this game atleast know what to expect from other classes so they can addept. That being said, seeing Lisail potrait a Sorc as a useless class is just amazing. Not only can nukers get the best XP ingame but they also perform very well in PvP. Something most classes seek from the beginning of the game.
Do I think Sorcs will get new skills that would them make even compared to other nukers skill wise? They prolly will and I truly hope so since it took TK's 6 updates to get their 3rd cubic which they have been waiting for since the beginning.
But do I think Sorcs are useless in PvP or PvE. NO [censored] WAY.
Sorc is supposed to deal more damage than SpS, but they don't. Sure, Sorc has slightly higher matk, but due to the % increase of acumen, SpS has far higher casting speed and can deal more damage in the same time in pvp. And in pve, SpS have the advantage that a HUGE amount (I'd guess about 50%) of the mobs are weak to their overhit skill, solar flare, which means ca. 20-30% more damage. Also (for what it's worth), SpS AOE does more damage than Sorc AOE (frost wall compared to blazing circle).
Who says Sorcs are _supposed_ to be more powerful than Spell singers? According to the lore, humans didn't even KNOW any magic until they struck a deal with the elves.
On the other hand, has it ever been any doubt that cast speed > all? :p
The break even point on AoE magic is 3 mobs - most AoE groups for melee pull in the vicinity of 8 to 16 mobs, sometimes more. No matter what, AoEing is always more MP efficient than single targeting if done at least halfway decently.
PS: Melees are also supposed to be able to catch and kill range, it not being the case doesn't make sorcs weaker.
The break even point on AoE magic is 3 mobs - most AoE groups for melee pull in the vicinity of 8 to 16 mobs, sometimes more. No matter what, AoEing is always more MP efficient than single targeting if done at least halfway decently.
Of course it is efficient in the sense of "costs less mp than nuking each mob individually". That's why I said "not practical" and not "not efficient" :)
What I meant was that it would cost so much mp to AOE down the mobs that you will run out of mp sooner or later. There's a reason why nukers don't exp one x4 or x5 hp mobs when they solo. E.g. lvl 74 blazing circle costs 103mp and does around 60% of the damage of a standard nuke. So you'd need several hundred mp per pull, and invariably quite a few mobs will be high mdef anyway. A single nuker in a pole party, without a dedicated recharger, makes no real sense because of that (he'll either run out of mp fast or he'll only be able to throw very few AOE nukes per train and do far less damage than a pole user - one crit of a pole user=one AOE nuke). A whole bunch of nukers with several rechargers might work, I just don't know if that would be good exp (practice has shown that catacomb parties above four or five people are bad xp compared to other places).
But cannot they BtM between each AoE nuke and during pulls even if the pole group does not have an EE or a live SE?
Also, in Frozen Lab a nuker could pull Buffalos with a range 900 nuke (you know, pole classes are kinda slow...), don't know if it can work in any higher level location, though.
Varaya, I don't think you realize a fully buffed nuker party will **** a fully buffed archer party. especially in interlude with chant of magnus, and crit damage nerf.
anyway, I didn't quit my sorc, but I don't play that class... I dunno if that counts as quitting or not.
What I meant was that it would cost so much mp to AOE down the mobs that you will run out of mp sooner or later. There's a reason why nukers don't exp one x4 or x5 hp mobs when they solo. E.g. lvl 74 blazing circle costs 103mp and does around 60% of the damage of a standard nuke. So you'd need several hundred mp per pull, and invariably quite a few mobs will be high mdef anyway. A single nuker in a pole party, without a dedicated recharger, makes no real sense because of that (he'll either run out of mp fast or he'll only be able to throw very few AOE nukes per train and do far less damage than a pole user - one crit of a pole user=one AOE nuke). A whole bunch of nukers with several rechargers might work, I just don't know if that would be good exp (practice has shown that catacomb parties above four or five people are bad xp compared to other places).
I hate coming up with 'experience' knowledge, but this is how I have seen it done (and well).
The problem you have is that you are thinking as if the nuker had to kill the whole train by himself - but a good 'mixed' AoE party can deal just fine with the nuker simply being 'yet another DD', much like all the polers. Use as much MP as you need, and then get the SE to recharge you - their MP is full up anyway as they likely don't need to heal (Bishop or EE will be present for point heals).
At least that's how pole parties do it on Lionna when they do take nukers with them.
Generally, I figure if we can keep a WS crafting through three hours of poling, we could keep a nuker doing a bit of damage.
Melee is supposed to kill range?Not true for nukers read again the C5 "balance" triangle.
Sorcs have lvl 1 B2M which means they DONT have B2M.(i hope i dont need to explain why since everybody here has played a sorc to 70+)
The only good AoE party was in C3 and in ABG.On 1/2 HP mobs.That have AoE stun.Ive seen ppl do AoE on ToI 10 but our groups tend to kill those one at a time.Ppl tell me AoE in FoG with CoV party is awesome XP (1% per pull on 77) but i was never in one.
i quit a scor fact is sleeping cloud and sleep nerf along with cancle in pvp and pve (my cases :P) and no btm its just like a sps so then i subed sps yeah!
Sorcs have lvl 1 B2M which means they DONT have B2M.(i hope i dont need to explain why since everybody here has played a sorc to 70+)
For me, 22 extra MP per cast during main nuke reuse delay is a huge amount of MP. But I guess it's exactly why I've chosen to play EE while you've chosen to play an 'one-button class'.
The question is whether or not you can get more exp with more people - and I've found that from a leeching perspective where I do very little except healing and watching my exp, I get the best exp with 2-3 DDs, one of them pulling (preferably a warlord) - of which you can certainly make one a nuker.
First of all Sharlanna marry me ok? Thats the spirit I like to see in people.
LOL!! Would love to but I'm marrying Ultra, my clan leader, in a few weeks. I'll never quit my Sorc. Yes, there needs to be more balance between the nuker classes but us Sorc's can dish out some hefty damage. Hell, half of my pk's have been accidents playing around with friends and forgetting my own strength. :D
It is interesting to see so many people who don't play a sorc yet need to push their agenda on this thread anyway.
The Sorc is a DD, and does it's job well. However, the mana management (one of the key balancers of the class) was tempered with a sleep-cloud that made the class valuable for XP groups. That's really my only beef with NCS.
The only other beef I have is people who claim the class is overpowered because they have decided that their class should be better at my role than my own class is.
It is interesting to see so many people who don't play a sorc yet need to push their agenda on this thread anyway.
The Sorc is a DD, and does it's job well. However, the mana management (one of the key balancers of the class) was tempered with a sleep-cloud that made the class valuable for XP groups. That's really my only beef with NCS.
The only other beef I have is people who claim the class is overpowered because they have decided that their class should be better at my role than my own class is.
Sleep cloud is still very effective in certain types of XP groups, it just takes a little more timing and finesse.
The sorc is still the best mage to have as a mage in a melee type AOE group, which should be the sorcs bread and butter.
In fact, a group with 1WL, 1 Sorc, 1 SE is an excellent group, probably the best 3 person group that can be made in the game as far as XP goes.
I really wish the "melee is so hard" people would give it a rest. It is a complete line of bull. Given the herb drop rates, melee solo is rediculously easy now. Sorcerors kill fast and then stand around doing nothing and are very vulnerable to multiple attackers.
Melee kills infinitely and with ZERO risk of death provided they don't do AFK.
Melee XP rate compared to nuker XP rate is very similar... especially when both are buffed as the melee closes in even furthur.
Dwarves with an SE and a good polearm who aren't chicken to try AoE actually XP faster than Sorc with an SE.
Truthfully, I am glad melee solo as well as nukers now.
I just wish mages weren't so useless to groups.
Sleeping cloud is 100% useless right now.
A smart sorceror has many other spells they should use before sleeping cloud because waiting for it to finish is almost as stupid as nuking one of your party members in many cases.
Frankly, both mages AND melee are useless right now as archers and daggers are so much better that there is no point in bringing either.
Sleeping clouds' removal (from usefulness) has NOT made tanks more desireable. The only case where this is true is the paladin who has a MORE POWERFUL ability in AoE root.
Most of the time it doesn't matter because nothing needs to be tanked... a few archers properly buffed insta-kill 5x mobs as they appear and daggers can surround and and kill it long before it does any real damage.
Mages don't get groups because they are pretty much pointless in comparison to the damage output daggers and archer put out due to mana issues. Oddly enough control in groups was relegated to healers which already have a short mana supply.
PvP?
There really are only archers when everyone is buffed.
Mage vortexes for 400
Archer hits for 7k
Mage is dead.
Sorc and sps need some serious work when it comes to mana regen...
Sleep and sleeping cloud need to be unnerfed to some degree. (split the difference now between cast time and recast time...)
Sleeping cloud never was overpowered... tanks were underpowered.
The Sorc is a DD, and does it's job well. However, the mana management (one of the key balancers of the class) was tempered with a sleep-cloud that made the class valuable for XP groups. That's really my only beef with NCS.
Mana management was never tampered with, AFAIK. It's gotten better though, bsps, clear mind, buffs and jewels that decrease mp usage. Not sure if I read your post right though, missing a comma there somewhere.. :I
Our POOR mana management was offset by our ability to use sleep cloud to help Crowd Control in XP parties, allowing us to consume less mana (as we would tend to maybe nuke once or twice per mob in that case) and still be a worthwile party member.
Bsps does no more to conserve our mana than ss does to conserver yours. It doubles our damage, meaning fewer nukes needed to kill, thus less mana used. SS does the same for the archer.
Yeah Canto. I lol'd at that too. I've been leveling up my Sorc since the first day of Open Beta and I'm only level 76.
22 MP from BTM isn't that much, but it is 1/3 of a nuke. That, along with the 17 MP I get every 4 seconds while standing or walking, is more than enough to keep my MP up. In our AOE parties we usually have 1-2 poles and 1-2 nukers. I do 2 AOE nukes and a BTM, rinse and repeat until the mobs are dead. While the puller is getting more mobs, I do more BTMs until I'm full again.
Yes, we got some nerfs. But definitely not enough to warrant quitting the class. My back-to-back AOE nukes are doing ~33k damage in about 5 seconds (not including any crits). What's so bad about that?
It is interesting to see so many people who don't play a sorc yet need to push their agenda on this thread anyway.
The Sorc is a DD, and does it's job well. However, the mana management (one of the key balancers of the class) was tempered with a sleep-cloud that made the class valuable for XP groups. That's really my only beef with NCS.
The only other beef I have is people who claim the class is overpowered because they have decided that their class should be better at my role than my own class is.
Sleep cloud is still very effective in certain types of XP groups, it just takes a little more timing and finesse.
The sorc is still the best mage to have as a mage in a melee type AOE group, which should be the sorcs bread and butter.
In fact, a group with 1WL, 1 Sorc, 1 SE is an excellent group, probably the best 3 person group that can be made in the game as far as XP goes.
er yuo must be kidding right? Sleep Cloud effective? You smoking something? By the time you finish casting sleep cloud either the group your in will have finished the mob off or you'll loose 1/2 your health.
Yeah Canto. I lol'd at that too. I've been leveling up my Sorc since the first day of Open Beta and I'm only level 76.
22 MP from BTM isn't that much, but it is 1/3 of a nuke. That, along with the 17 MP I get every 4 seconds while standing or walking, is more than enough to keep my MP up. In our AOE parties we usually have 1-2 poles and 1-2 nukers. I do 2 AOE nukes and a BTM, rinse and repeat until the mobs are dead. While the puller is getting more mobs, I do more BTMs until I'm full again.
Yes, we got some nerfs. But definitely not enough to warrant quitting the class. My back-to-back AOE nukes are doing ~33k damage in about 5 seconds (not including any crits). What's so bad about that?
er some nerfs? Are you kidding me? To date, we are the MOST nerfed of all the classes, even compared to daggers in C2.
Also, as a nuker, I despise AOE parties. In fact the reason I despise AOE parties is it isn't part of game mechanics. Your not supposed to round of 10,000 (exageration) and blow em up all at once. This type of gameplay is just utterly stupid. Not to mention most people who play this style is:
1. farmers
2. botters
3. usually farmers/botters
To be honest, I think they should totally eliminate this type of gameplay. Only class I can see justification for this type of gameplay at all are those with pole masteries.
He did say "certain" types of XP groups. Obviously, you're not going to cast Sleep Cloud when there are only 2 mobs. Sleep Cloud is still a very viable skill in the right situations. The parties I'm in are glad I use it.
I have basically quite my archmage. after 3 years of leveling it now at 77, this is what I get
Sorc lfg ... (in guild chat)
r: We're in MoS atm need a dark nuker
r: Sry we don;t have room in the archer xpp grps atm
SoulTaker lfg
Invite received
we'll summon you to mos
Now this has been this way since I have tried gedtting end game grps. At time another sorc and I with a tank and bd with an eese will go to a cata and hutn in one of the rooms there, but that is rare.
It's silly to suggest that AoE parties are not valid for legit, regular players. Come on.
That said, 33K damage in 5 seconds of aoe nukes?!?!? Ok, now THAT intrigues me. I must know more. (Sorc here very interested in getting my main back in action)
Also, as a nuker, I despise AOE parties. In fact the reason I despise AOE parties is it isn't part of game mechanics. Your not supposed to round of 10,000 (exageration) and blow em up all at once. This type of gameplay is just utterly stupid. Not to mention most people who play this style is:
1. farmers
2. botters
3. usually farmers/botters
To be honest, I think they should totally eliminate this type of gameplay. Only class I can see justification for this type of gameplay at all are those with pole masteries.
Now wait a second...
NCSoft gives us AOE nukes, AOE crowd control, Pole Masteries, Burst Shot, Sonic Buster, Mass Slow, and all the other AOE skills and you're saying that "this type of gameplay is just utterly stupid"? It sounds like you may be playing the wrong game then! The mechanics most certainly are in place for us to AOE. Many classes have AOE skills. Why you despise us using them is beyond me.
You forgot the main reasons why people use this "utterly stupid" type of gameplay:
33k spread across all targets of course - it doesn't sound too 'out there' if your pull is big enough.
But yes, (SpS/Sorc)/(WL/Dest)/SE (or EE if you're 'scum' that leaves their support OOP) is a great group. I've played in a similar setup with a BH as the poler (I'm greedy, I know) and it was not only great fun but also terrific EXP despite a rather large level gap between both DDs and myself.
And this is why ppl here are newbies.3 years till 75?You guys are useless go and reroll life.I had a lvl 30 arty friend in my first clan.(after awhile the clan disbanded) He was lvl 75 before me AND NO he didnt use illegal means to do it.All it took was determination.Reps for him.
I can just stay here and listen to some pathetic know-it-all kids that cant even XP properly.Me and the CL of my clan were both 68 at 1 point(hes a pally).He reached 75 before me and no i didnt take a leave from the game (talking about end of C4).
But hey ist not like you guys even played the game.Now gogogo use that CC.
And for the guy with the B2M.22 MP for 130 HP.Thats 400 HP for 1 nuke.3 nukes per mob (without emp) thats 1.2k HP-9 B2M.Gotta be joking right?
3 years till 75....i dont know if i should cry or laugh.....so ill laugh.
That said, 33K damage in 5 seconds of aoe nukes?!?!? Ok, now THAT intrigues me. I must know more. (Sorc here very interested in getting my main back in action)
We pull 16 mobs at a time. My first nuke does 1150 damage to each mob, my second nuke does 950 damage to each mob. That's 33.6k damage in a total of about 5 seconds. After a BTM, both nukes are charged up again. I can usually get 4-5 nukes off before all the mobs are dead. This damage is with a NM set, +5 INT, +4 SOM, Prophet, SE and BD buffs.
Heh Lisail - I love how you assume that anyone who doesn't exp fast can't do so.
I get rather good experience when I do go out, but there are other things to do in game. I could be roleplaying, I could be crafting something, I could be chatting with someone, I could be fishing, I could be exploring the countryside, preparing an event, etc.
Also, Pam, if you know any ESs - you might see if one of them wants to team up on half mob HP AoE with an SE. It's not as fast as pole groups, but it's an interesting duo (which I can once again - yuck - confirm from personal experience). Experience with OOP buffs from prophet and SE and two pole users was comparable to exp rate of an ES with nuker duo partner in the 50ies, although I'm certain it drops off a little later as the ES needs to melee down all mobs, and nukers will need recharges/emp to do their half of the hit.
And this is why ppl here are newbies.3 years till 75?You guys are useless go and reroll life.
3 years till 75....i dont know if i should cry or laugh.....so ill laugh.
Yes, and some of us have lives outside of the game.
And for the guy with the B2M.22 MP for 130 HP.Thats 400 HP for 1 nuke.3 nukes per mob (without emp) thats 1.2k HP-9 B2M.Gotta be joking right?
It's up to you if you don't use it. I do...and it still works for me. Nothing that a Greater Group Heal won't fix (since it's being cast anyway, why not take advantage of it?). And, I don't hunt without Empower. Yay for SE friends.
There is no better XP in the game than a WL, Sorc, and SE. Another healer is very helpful, or more AOE (poles, nukes, whatever) but those three alone can do an excellent job of AOEing multiple catacomb rooms at one time. For a real good time, add a SWS and/or BD to the mix, now things are getting buck wild.
If things look to be getting out of hand, reach for the sleep cloud. The fact that it takes 5 seconds to cast doesn't matter if the Sorc is smart enough to realize he's going to need it 5 seconds early.
Now I won't lie, 3 morons cannot AOE like this. It takes 3 people working together and playing smart, but it's not 3 rocket scientists either.
If you don't know a WL, try a dwarf or destroyer, they are an ok compromise.
NEWSFLASH - Sorc is an AOE class, just like WL is an AOE class. That's why you only have 1 main nuke and 2 strong AOE nukes.
That said, 33K damage in 5 seconds of aoe nukes?!?!? Ok, now THAT intrigues me. I must know more. (Sorc here very interested in getting my main back in action)
We pull 16 mobs at a time. My first nuke does 1150 damage to each mob, my second nuke does 950 damage to each mob. That's 33.6k damage in a total of about 5 seconds. After a BTM, both nukes are charged up again. I can usually get 4-5 nukes off before all the mobs are dead. This damage is with a NM set, +5 INT, +4 SOM, Prophet, SE and BD buffs.
That's an interesting setup-strategy.
If you nuke 4 times per group, assuming it's Blazing Circle then Rain of Fire, that's 344 mana. You need 15 btms to regain most of that mana (at a cost of 1965 hp).
Heals are more mana efficient than recharging though... How many healers in that party?
I love fishing and i HATE crafting.Made quite a bit from fishing actually.
Up till now 6/6 A grade crafts failed.I HATE crafting.Well i prefer DOING something than just standing around.We can chat over vent while we XP anyway.
There are VERY few places where i never have been.(mostly Stutgart areas)
Roleplaying....well i dont really care about roleplaying.But ppl that do all these stuff and then come here telling me they lvl alot slower than a nuker.....prob isnt in my class.Its in you.
Maline every time when you use oop in your posts i get mad.
Yeah i can lvl fast with oop WC/SE/BD(?)/PP/SE/EE and finally SE.Point is should my class balance be made on me having 2! classes?Heck no!
Stop the oop talks pls.Take your buffer in party and THEN tell me your XP rates tywm.
I just quited my sorc. Well do I even need to explain why but why not. It was 70+ lvl so I know what sorcs all are about.
Cancel is useless in bigger pvp or outside arena anyway. Well sleep is useless. So you dont have change against necro,SH,any archer, well just about anyone who have jewels and resist fire on will win you. ONLY ONE FRIKKING NUKE AND NO OVERHIT! !! ! absolute no reason to play sorc cause you can play either necro or SH which are real nukers and have good working skills, nukes, curses. and that prominence aint that great looking actually its annoying when you cant shoot anything else.
Well too bad I didnt make that necro sooner. It would be awesome to have 70+ necro atm. Btw hope they never change those necro skills, I like landing silence and anchor on 30lvl higher ppl that me.
Sorcs are nice class if you do aoe partys everyday but you wont and the aoe aint that good anymore. So they are pretty much useless without vortex and I bow down to that one who tells me why the hell sorcs have to lvl till 77 to get his vortex ??? and why skills cost more sp to sorc than other nukers ?
Also, as a nuker, I despise AOE parties. In fact the reason I despise AOE parties is it isn't part of game mechanics. Your not supposed to round of 10,000 (exageration) and blow em up all at once. This type of gameplay is just utterly stupid. Not to mention most people who play this style is:
1. farmers
2. botters
3. usually farmers/botters
To be honest, I think they should totally eliminate this type of gameplay. Only class I can see justification for this type of gameplay at all are those with pole masteries.
Now wait a second...
NCSoft gives us AOE nukes, AOE crowd control, Pole Masteries, Burst Shot, Sonic Buster, Mass Slow, and all the other AOE skills and you're saying that "this type of gameplay is just utterly stupid"? It sounds like you may be playing the wrong game then! The mechanics most certainly are in place for us to AOE. Many classes have AOE skills. Why you despise us using them is beyond me.
You forgot the main reasons why people use this "utterly stupid" type of gameplay:
1. XP
2. XP
3. XP
Sure I can see that we have those skillsets. But I have a personal problem in the way the developers implemented this whole "scheme" and yes I call it that. I think they just ran out of ideas and decided to do mass kill, which is "utterly stupid" when you think about it.
I mean c'mon, watching some dumb [censored] running around collecting mobs for an entire leveling area is unfair on all the other players in the game who are leveling in the same area. It is a stupid game design and bad function in game mechanics. It is also what I would call unnecessary. If they were going to do this, why not just increase XP given per kill? Hello? Then maybe some dumb [censored] won't go out and pull every single mob in a given area and screw everyone else who is trying to level there.
Roleplaying....well i dont really care about roleplaying.But ppl that do all these stuff and then come here telling me they lvl alot slower than a nuker.....prob isnt in my class.Its in you.
Uhm... what does roleplaying have to do with your level speed? When I'm in an EXP party, I mostly do my job (healing and mitigating damage, and occassionally hitting something), when I'm roleplaying I roleplay.
Same level speed as anyone else. '__'
resist fire
Surrender? Or are people actually wasting their earth/warding/invocation slot when they see you?
PS: More rewards, more risks. If you refuse to AoE despite being capable, you have no room to complain about exp speed. I could say 'soulshots are stupid' (and hey, they are), but that would still make me a fool for not using them.
With all due respect, Bighands, when I rolled Sorc it was not an AoE nuker. It was a Nuker that could function in regular xp groups.
I enjoyed 3 great chronicles.
What's the difference between now and the last 3 chronicles? Your sleep and sleep cloud takes 5-7 sec's instead of 2.
I know that you can still be a very effective crowd controller if that's what you want be, because I play every night with a Sorc who does just that. It does take a change in playstyle, and significantly more forethought into what's going on around you with respect to aggro, but it can be done well.
With all due respect though, if you choose not to play your class to it's strengths, then you will not get the optimal XP.
I dunno.. 16 mobs that must be something like 160-240k of XP per 344 MP.
Sounds pretty efficient to me... how many times can you do that before you have to rest? 10? 15?
LOL
176k XP per pull. We go for hours without resting. BTM only restores 22 MP, but I'm getting 17 MP every 4 seconds from natural MP regen. So the MP comes back pretty fast. Every minute I can get back 300+ MP. Throw in the occasional recharge, and my MP bar is always full.
Now stop using B2M and tell me if there is a diff.
Because in my AoE parties back in C4 i was always on full MP without B2M.
I don't get what point you're trying to make. I'm full on MP using BTM. If I didn't use BTM, I may or may not be full. If I'm not full, I get a recharge. It's not that complicated. I just work with what I've got, and it's going good for me so far.
an interesting factoid I flipped a coin while doing my first class change because I couldn;t decide necro or sorc. I remidied my mistake with a subclass.
I meant that you are not full because you use B2M.You are full because you stand around waiting for the next train.
B2M is NOT the reason you got full MP.
He kills (with his party) 20-30 mobs, uses probably 6-10 spiritshots to do it, and never has to sit and get no xp for 12 minutes because he's outta mana.
A lone sorceror kills 20-30 mobs, uses 60-90 sps.. are you seeing where the aoe setup could be better?
The joke, I think, is closed-minded power-players that want to play this game as if it were a single-player game. If you're wondering, I play a SE as my main character. A support class. I'm not whining about the greater heal nerf. I'm not whining about the fact that I can't do damage.
No, I whine about the fact that pompous little jerks like you think you don't need support. Thank you for making me obsolete.
I have both an SH and a Sorceror. I play them both the same. I kill the mobs before they kill me. Of course I have a 2-boxed SE, but clan hall buffs could work also.
At level 50 my sorc could kill the level 57-59 mobs (Cave Maiden, etc) in DV. Usually 2 shots, 3 on the maidens. Why would I want to sleep mobs when I can just kill them?
I rolled a sorc in C2 which was a viable class to xp with a non-aoe group. While I'm sure that the sorc you party with is a master of the art of physics with regard to timing and crowd control, we may either run different party setups, or I'm just poor at playing my class. I'm sure you'll assume the latter. There may be a small number of people here who've actually partied with me that can share an educated opinion, but otherwise, it will be assumed by all of the non-sorcs whose agenda drives them to this thread to post about a class they don't play, that it must just be me.
My clan at that time was not an aoe clan. Was not set up to run aoe parties. We had a different playstyle and different objectives, and that was fine because when I rolled my sorc, my class wasn't AoE or Rot. Our clan, even as it grew never had the "AoE set up."
At the end of C4 when we started our own clan we certainly had no setup for AoE. It was me, an SR, a BH, and an SpS. 2 of us were already high A grade, the other 2 high B grade.
On my server there are say.... 4-5 Big Alliances that offer incentives to join that our clan simply cannot. So to the people that fantasize that there must be gobs of lonely A-S level SEs looking for clans and parties, their servers must be radically different. (Plus we recruit based on attitude and playstyle, not level and class).
So, that being the case, my ability to level my sorc at this stage is very limited. Do I have the only class that faces that? No. Of course not.
But how many classes started out being welcome in any xp group and now find themselves so... limited?
When you choose a class designed for aoe, you expect that to be the case, plan for it and go into the toon ready for that limitation. That isn't happened with Sorcs (unless they rolled after c5).
The issue is NCS saying (Sorry can't play that toon that way anymore. You now need to play THIS way. Oh and we aren't changing anything else to make others have a similar need to accommodate your change).
Sorcs are a dying breed for a reason. Most (not all) of us holding on to the Sorc do so because we've put so much time and effort into it. Some hold out hope that NCS makes some adjustments. Some of us are lucky enough to have a subclass.
The issue is NCS saying (Sorry can't play that toon that way anymore. You now need to play THIS way. Oh and we aren't changing anything else to make others have a similar need to accommodate your change).
They said that to the SE too. Adapt, overcome. I certainly did, and I know quite a few sorcerers that did too. One of which posted in this thread.
Bsps does no more to conserve our mana than ss does to conserver yours. It doubles our damage, meaning fewer nukes needed to kill, thus less mana used. SS does the same for the archer.
It does conserve mana because you do more damage per shot.. but you probably have never used normal sps..? SS does the same for some skills and archers, not for all others that don't use a bow or skills, so not exactly the same thing, because bsps is better than SS.
We're going for grammar/spelling errors now.. ok.. english isn't my native language, but I just want to make sure what you really meant. It sounded like you meant "to tamper". Make a cross in the box that matches.
[ ] Tempering = Making something harder/tougher, like tempered steel
[ ] Tamper = Changing something/experimenting with it
Hey joke-even if you were the last SE in my server i wouldnt party you.If you cant find a party maybe the problem is in you?
Im usually running with EE/Ols in group.SE/SwS and BD are lacking at high lvls (in my ally that is).
And im saying that B2M is a solo spell.Why?Because when you have an SE in party that can recharge 100+ per cast...well nvm.
To maline-running in AoE party?Thats a joke right?Dont you guys have a puller?Clarity effect aint small by a long shot btw.Im just saying that B2M effect is neglectable when you need atleast 140 MP per mob.Thats 7 B2M per mob.(7 B2M allow you to kill 1 more mob get it?Your MP regen is different matter)
Bsps=Ss
Bsps= 4x Matk=2xDmg
SS=2xPatk=2xDmg
What is better in bsps is the land rate increase of debuffs.
Have you ever seen a nuker without a speed set (DC+acumen weapon+symbols) cast speels without bsps?
The devs calculated how much cast speed is needed for PvE for nukers and then cutted it in half.And added cast speed bonus to bsps so nukers ALWAYS HAVE TO use bsps.(the acumen and DC were added later)
Hey joke-even if you were the last SE in my server i wouldnt party you.If you cant find a party maybe the problem is in you?
You don't have to. If I want a group, I get one. No question about it. I usually have people lined up for me to join them, and have repeatedly given out numbers.
I have a great clan, and a good alliance. Key things to doing good things in end game.
To maline-running in AoE party?Thats a joke right?Dont you guys have a puller?Clarity effect aint small by a long shot btw.Im just saying that B2M effect is neglectable when you need atleast 140 MP per mob.Thats 7 B2M per mob.
Maximum level of Clarity gives you 12 (or maybe even 10) MP back from the same mob. Compare that to a single BtM.
Clarity on you plus Clarity on recharger gives you slightly more MP per mob than a single BtM. That's it.
The devs calculated how much cast speed is needed for PvE for nukers and then cutted it in half.And added cast speed bonus to bsps so nukers ALWAYS HAVE TO use bsps.(the acumen and DC were added later)
BSpS does not increase the amount of nukes per minute for a single-nuke class.
Thats because they dont increase the recharge rate of the skills i know.Point is to kill the mob before it reaches you.
You use 130 HP for 22 MP.You also need to cast it alot.Clarity is a BUFF after all so you can just have it once and forget it.And dont need to lower HP too much either.
Considering mana conservation, nuker's BSpS is exactly the same as archer's SS, while nuker's SpS is a reduced version of both.
What I meant was that there was a time, long long time ago, where BSPS didn't exist, thus BSPS contribute to mages using less MP. The cast speed was supposed to counter that SPS didn't actually double the damage.. but I guess that was forgotten on the way.
Regarding B2M.. so if you have Clarity, that is a reason NOT to use B2M if it's needed? You must use every means needed to keep MP up.. so what are you really arguing about? Doesn't take that long to regen 2-300mp..
No, it's not a joke, it's a typo. Meant wait, not walk. ^^ Not sure what happened there - probably too much running around catas looking for free rooms recently. I sit firmly planted on my butt waiting for trains. :p
And yes, the playstyle shift has happened to dwarves, summoners, SEs, daggers, archers (remember when they were solo classes?), tyrants (totem nerf), destroyers (bow nerf), tanks (back and forth once), ...
When you rolled your class, it was already an AoE class. You only happened to single out a single one of its AoE skills as being particularly interesting for you.
10 B2M actually take some time.Even with speed setup.Most ppl dont use bsps with B2M at all so...Yeah cast speed and recharge rate of B2M aint like a nuke or stmn.It takes time AND HP for a crappy result.But its not like SpS doesnt have a regen buff.
The HP is easily amended out of either group heals or with a few healpots - a prerequisite in any AoE group anyhow, and for any melee (unless they're in a herb area, in which case, well, same to you).
BtM resets fast enough to be cast every 2 spells or so in AoE, maybe 3 in single target PvE - certainly every mob if you are not trying to burn your MP ASAP and are looking for the 'maximum' mob in your area (for which you have time thanks to your MP management issues).
Clarity at top level reduces MP consumption by a little less than 10% MP per spell (and the full 10% for physical skills). Main nukes use a total of 69 MP at 74, which means clarity saves you somewhere in the vicinity of 5/6 MP per cast, whereas BtM restores something like 22 at your level AFAIK and is easily balanced with standard HP pots.
If you can notice the effect of clarity, you should seriously try BtM1.
Better late to the booze-up than never, I always say...
Also, as a nuker, I despise AOE parties. In fact the reason I despise AOE parties is it isn't part of game mechanics. Your not supposed to round of 10,000 (exageration) and blow em up all at once. This type of gameplay is just utterly stupid. Not to mention most people who play this style is:
1. farmers
2. botters
3. usually farmers/botters
To be honest, I think they should totally eliminate this type of gameplay. Only class I can see justification for this type of gameplay at all are those with pole masteries.
Wow... I loved Ancient Battlegrounds in my 50s and low 60s as a Swordsinger. Since becoming a SwS so many chronicles ago, no other type of group like an AOE group has made me feel more valued as a class and what my class' skills bring to the party.
Before the AOE nerf, and before people had clued in on AB as a viable AOE hunting ground, this was *the* place to AOE grind. I'd go with a Sorc, 2 Warlords, the buff-bot and 2 healer/sleepers. My job, as the 'Singer, was to give everyone Earth and Life and, for myself, Wind.
See, I had the unenvious task of running down the hill to collect roughly 100 mobs and train my own party with them... in under a minute.
It's a whole lot of fun trying to gather up enough mobs to make the pull worth while, meanwhile staying just a step ahead to avoid being stunned (and then overrun and killed), and bringing them all back to the party in a neat, organized conga line of death... in less than 60 seconds.
If I took too long and had to sing Earth again on my return, I was a dead elf, you can't pull that much aggro off that fast.