Simple question. To narrow down the scope of answers, assume: no OOP buffers, 40% of the time in party, the rest solo, normal weapons and armors (no OE). Also make comments if they have any big differences on their running costs.
good question and before the orc forum trolls pop up ill add my 2 cents
i only play a 50+ destro sub and all i have is 50+ wc sub buffs so take this with a grain of salt
destro is quite posibly the best pole class in game
they lack the cool pulling skills of wl and their run speed is a bit crappy so if you can get someone else to pull that would be even better
they start off at 40 with 3 very useful pole skills
rage - which is basically like self zerk and is very effective when you just want to kill quick without concern for your pdef
frenzy - which basically doubles your pattack (-30% hp)
guts - which is basically a slightly gimp version of ud without the mdef boost (-30% hp)
these skills refresh so fast that even if you pulled only one room at a time one would always be ready for use by the time you start swinging
i understand that tyrants are pretty powerful but mainly at higher lvls so that might be what holds them back
Well, I saw that thread, but the OP in that post asks to assume OOP (I didn't). And the whole thread went a bit off-topic. It doesn't seem to make an sense as to who and why.
I don't know who levels faster, but tyrant will be more expensive for sure. I personally think it's worth it, if you can afford it, because tyrants are ++cool :p
If your a Destroyer, find a friendly Sws to pull for you. The exp is awesome and the Swordsinger has enough hp/pdef/run speed not to take to much of a pounding with a pull.
Yes, exactly. I don't think there will be a bg difference in cost of armor or weapon (can even trade any(?) B weapon to fists, so tyrant weapon *could* be cheaper), unless you will want several weapons on your destro.
well the destro will want a pole and a 2 hander
the tyrant is more expensive because their damage is based on attack speed not as much huge pattack (although i think they have a cool crit buff thingie)
even useing no skills at all their attack speed is fairly high due to passive haste so in a party expect to pay more than the guy on the left of ya
assume: no OOP buffers, 40% of the time in party, the rest solo
ill take that to mean that 60% of the time you run around self buffed. tyrant can solo slowly with only totems, destroyer needs vr to solo (talking 60+ here), or you will lose more than you gain (if you have clan hall buffs you can solo great with both classes). tyrants are one of the most (if not the most) expensive classes to buy ss for, you should get a dorfie freind that will craft shots for free. tyant armor is easy, you can get away with only 2 sets, from lvl 40 to lvl 80. destroyers can level with 3 heavy sets (one per grade). tyrants only need one weapon in a grade (fists), in a grade destroyers need a sword, a blunt, something with health sa, a bow (unless you expect to just sit there while you're rooted in pvp), a dagger, a staff, and an optional pole. though ive just about made it to 76, with only low b grade sword + focus and a chrono, i would have died a lot less (read: i would have been this level nearly one year ago) if i would of had these things. destroyers ARE their equipment, tyrants use themselves to pwn, their weapons are just a technichal requirement. now, all that said. if you want to level your destroyer like a dwarf, it can be done, just sit a lot and dont count on frenzy, but then you're not really playing a destroyer are you?
idk with a bit of frenzy and a herb here and there i think destro could solo ok
would obviously involve abit of pot spam in bad situations but it should be doable
Thank you all for your answers. From what I read, I make the following conclusions:
-Pole arm for destroyer is possible (or at least effective) only with buffs or healer.
-Soloing unbuffed on same level mobs they would roughly have the same exp curve.
-Destroyer requires more equipment (weapons), especially at high levels.
-Tyrants have more ss consumtion. Although, I personally believe that their attack speed is not the problem. They just deal damage faster. The problem is that fists (and duals) swing twice during an attack round and if one swing misses but the other one hits, the ss is consumed. So those types of weapons tend to consume more ss than the rest.
-Tyrants have more ss consumtion. Although, I personally believe that their attack speed is not the problem. They just deal damage faster. The problem is that fists (and duals) swing twice during an attack round and if one swing misses but the other one hits, the ss is consumed. So those types of weapons tend to consume more ss than the rest.
only thing i dont agree with
tyrants have much higher attack speed
while its debateable which is more expensive solo a tyrant will always spend more in party
That is logical, since tyrant will be attacking faster than anyone else in the party (daggers excluded). So, financially speaking, destro requires more equipment, while tyrant more ss. That much is finalised. Now, what about the kill time? While soloing, do they kill the same mob (self buffed) in roughly the same time or someone has an advantage?
unbuffed or selfbuffed, a tyrant will probably kill it faster (passive boosts + totems) but buffed, a single destroyer can clear a room ;)
I'm not sure I agree on this one. An enRaged and Frenzied Destroyer with 2H focus sword using only Haste2 and GHP potions with the occassional Life Elixir will easily clear out all 8 mobs in any catacomb [green/white mobs] at all levels. Then, by the time the room respawns and they pull HP down to 30% Frenzy should be available, but if not switch to Guts and Rage. In this way a self-buffed Destroyer can keep an 8 mob catacomb room cleared.
problem is if 2-3 of those mobs crit on you even in frenzy, you have little way to get the hp back (even w/ battle roar+ elixers, the resuse time can make it hard to sustain for long periods of time) sure a frenzied destroyer can take out a room without buffs, but can it be sustained?
I agree. and for the purpose of choosing a character for faster leveling, what can be done up to B grade is of minor concern, its after that mark that should be considered (or 60+ or even 70+, whatever floats your boat)
I think It could w/ GHP up until 46 or so. Afterwards the mobs hit too hard to sustain it
I've done this a few times in the 5x and early 6x levels without VR but admittedly it was not for an extended period of time so I don't know if it is sustainable. Maybe I just got lucky with crits.
After reading this thread I was wondering if it could be sustainable with NM light armor (for the 3% VR effect) and 2H blunt with health to have max starting HP. Pdef in NM light is still pretty good (about 550 with Rage vs. about 650 with Tallum Heavy). HP with no tattoos and health weapon would be close to 8000 and Patk would be over 4000. I have a hard time believing that you couldn't hold HP with GHP and 3% VR long enough to clear out 8 mobs with Frenzy. By using a 2H blunt you could stun to reduce the HP loss. Although, overall, it might still be better to go with a 2H sword with Focus and give up the stun chance and extra starting HP.
It takes about 6 to 8 hits to kill each mob. You would get hit about 4 or 5 times for maybe 150 to 200 damage per hit for a total of about 1000 HP. Level 60-70 catacomb mobs have about 14000 HP so with NM light you'd heal about 400 HP per mob through VR. So you would probably lose about 600 HP per mob times 8 mobs or 4800 HP per room. It would take maybe 60 seconds to clear out the whole room so that is about 4 GHP potions for 2000 HP total healed. Net HP loss would be about 3000 HP. This would further improve for every stun landed. This should be sustainable. It probably would not be easy, life elixirs would be needed in a pinch, and the armor and maybe even tattoos not optimal for normal play when buffed, but it does seem possible.
Thank you all for your answers. From what I read, I make the following conclusions:
-Pole arm for destroyer is possible (or at least effective) only with buffs or healer.
-Soloing unbuffed on same level mobs they would roughly have the same exp curve.
-Destroyer requires more equipment (weapons), especially at high levels.
-Tyrants have more ss consumtion. Although, I personally believe that their attack speed is not the problem. They just deal damage faster. The problem is that fists (and duals) swing twice during an attack round and if one swing misses but the other one hits, the ss is consumed. So those types of weapons tend to consume more ss than the rest.
Please correct if something doesn’t seem right.
Fist weapons work like Duals. Even though each 'attack' takes two 'swings' only one 'Charge' of SS is used. Only one SS charge is used regardless if one of the swings in an attack misses. You can check this by manually loading a single charge and attacking a mob. IIRC, their is a bit of fudging if the first swing misses, versus the second missing. I haven't tested that recently(3 Chronicles now), so they could have fixed it.
The 'expensive' part of a Tyrant's SS use (In a Party), comes simply because their attack speed is simply greater than most everyone elses due to passive attack speed boosts, totems and active skills. (Fist Fury, Puma Totem, Hurricane Assualt, Boost Attack Speed, Zealot)
When a Tyrant 'Winds up' the resulting speed increase can really add up. So while everyone else in the party swings away at (Weapon Base Speed + Buffs), A tyrant adds (+Self Buffs) to their that as well.
I play a Destroyer myself. The leveling was very slow until I starting boxing. A Destroyer is powerful, but slow. And they melee, so they take a lot of damage without VR. Of course, I switched to the boxed buffer back in C4, pre-herbs. Still, a Destroyer is best used in places like the Cats or EV. In other words, the places they excel at, herbs generally aren't available. If you want to get a 2nd acct and box with your WC, it should work well. I started doing that about 2 weeks ago, and so far it works great. (I spend a little bit on GHPs when I play in the Cats, but not that much.) If you really are going to be spending a lot of time soloing without a buffer/healer, then that sort of implies to me that you will be working mostly open fields where herbs drop. Quite frankly, if I was in that situation, I would much prefer a Tyrant. They will kill fast in those situations without the services of a buffer, and I think they will be able to mostly keep their health up with herbs.
higher crit rate means better ss conservation. zealot for destroyers increases crit rate, zealot for tyrants increases something else (crit damage i think). and as was stated, when a 2hander misses, it doesnt use ss, a fist can miss once (but unlike duals they have high accuracy) and that will consume an ss. if you get blood tornados with focus you will probably see a noticable difference in ss consumption. i dont play a tyrant, i just hear them complain about ss consumption all the time. also its been agued (as PainAmplifier said) that they use ss faster, like a dagger, compared to other members in a party. so in the time a destroyer hits 10 times, a tyrant hits 15-20 times. thus you need to go to town more often. (but a destroyer cant carry as many ss since they have to carry other weapons!)
conclusions: play what you like. the orc classes are fun.
both are very dangerous toons due to them being of the strongest race in game orcs of course just incase someone out there not following me i have been in a pole party with 2 destroyers 1 warlord 1 shillen elder and 1 elven elder and the warlord pulled what i can only imagine to be the whole cata or at very least 6 full rooms and without the warlord even having to hit the two destroyers who where on pole wiped out all the mobs in about 1 minute the one thing that is great about destroyers is if you twin two of them up with an SE using blunts of two handed swords they can wipe out two rooms but ive also seen similer method being done with two tyrants but imo destroyers lvl much quicker than tyrants due to their being able to pole
RampantLiones
A GOOD WAR SMITH IS AN HONOURABLE ONE :)
The only complaint I got about SS consumptions and tyrant is... I can only carry enough shot for 1-1,5 hour use LOL.
Will be better once I hit 61 and can use my A grade fist but yeah :)
As for damage, a Tyrant at 68 with Bison + Zealot got quite insane DPS, 450 Crit rate without crit SA or 500 with it :) So if Zealot added extra crit rate it would be a waste.
Ok, let's consider the classes costs closed and focus on their solo aspect. Let's also stay on hunting grounds grounds on the surface (solo-unbuffed) where pots drop and consider these senarios:
-A destro hunting with pole 2-3 1X HP white or green mobs at a time.
-A destro hunting with 2-handed weapon (blunt or sword) on single 2X HP white or 1X HP light red mobs
-A tyrant hunting on 2X HP white or 1X HP light red mobs.
Without buffs, I'm quite certain the Tyrant would get faster EXP. A Destroyer with buffs on multi-HP mobs will level fast. Or maybe in good poling places in 1X mobs. But poling really pretty much requires a healer, unless maybe you go for mobs much lower, in which case I don't think you'd get much out of it. You have to consider, a Destroyer with buffs can just beat on the multi-HP mobs, he is powerful enough to take them down fairly efficiently, and he will spend a higher % of the time killing because the mobs are multi-HP. Otherwise, for just open fields hunting 1X mobs, the destroyer moves slow, and spends a smaller % of time killing mobs. This is one reason players who play destroyers tend to like the cats.
The tyrant moves around faster between mobs and if he keeps himself under 60% hp with Bison he get +43% patk and +100 critical, and he can prolly use Fist Fury most of the time for even more attack speed. Get him under 30% HP and it's like a Destroyer in frenzy!
Tyrants don't shine until they hit 68 for Bison totem, until then they're pretty expensive considering they don't crit much.
Both classes are fun, so play what you think you'll like the most.
there are plenty of multi-hp mobs outside of the cats too. are we including clann hall buffs or not? id say they are both reasonably close, but destroyer would probably be faster with clan hall buffs and tyrant would be faster if u compare both without clan hall buffs. the player's choice of mobs, playstyle, and kill order will make a significatly larger difference than the difference between classes, since they are both non-dwarf melee.
AndreasK, I might have been off in my answer about poling on the surface. Coup[le of weeks back, still at level 58, I happened to pass by the Connabi groups south of Oren, solo, no boxed buffer, and decided to take a few swings. As I recall, I took out 4 or 5 groups very quick, for something a little better than 1% XP, with not much damage. Hopefully some people who actually pole on teh surface to level will contribute their experience. (Although on Seighardt, I don't see many such players.) I don't think you need to limit your answer on this aspect to only players who play Destroyers. I thinka dorf or WL can also answer whether this works very well with out a buffer/healer; as that seems to be a key point.
i dont use a pole because i've only got one account. i was actually agreeing with you, destroyers should seek out multiple-hp mobs to reduce run time between mobs. but i find catacombs to be drab and borring so i ussually only go there when im looking for bots or aa. i think a lot of playes feel this way about the catacombs, so i just wanted to make sure that people weren't thinking that if you play destroyer you are limited to the cookie cutter dungeons.
I went by the Connabi groups again today, and did one without buffs on my lvl 59 Destroyer, using a pole. Without buffs, my HP went down around 50%. Of the 4 mobs I killed, I looked at the CP and adena drop from the last one. It was something like maybe 250 XP, and maybe 350 adena. Since these are low 50s level mob groups, I would take this an indication that you won't like pursuing a Destoyer polearm user on the surface without a buffer/healer.