hi,,i joined a clan on teon but didnt like the clan that much so i left,,few days b4 leaving i say in clN chat that im thinking of leaving
anyways i find myself a new clan which i enjoy playing in,,only to find today that ive been kicked from clan...:(
i ask the CL why ive been kicked he says that my ex clan leader has pm,ed him and said that i scammed the clan and ebay which i dont do,,
i never scammed the clan and i never ebay,,so this clan leader is going round telling ppl that im a bad pllayer which is all lies,,
now ive spend a lot of time lvling this char and the last thing i want is for him to fill ppls head with such pathectic lies,,i think he is trying to ruin my char and game
id just like to hear ppls views on this cause atm im extremly p1ssed off :((
thanks for reading
Pk your ex-clan leader till hes lvl 9.After that start a new char.
OR you can find yourself a clan that doesnt care about someone badmouthing you and giving you a test period to see how you behave.Remember:before joining tell new CL that someone is spreading lies.
Welcome to the politics of Lineage, where a single word against you can ruin your life, or at least make a lot of extra work for you.
Time to start talking to people.
Yeah, this is the truth.
You really have to be careful about who you clan-up with as there are a lot (A LOT) of really pathetic, scummy people in this game.
I don't really have a lot of respect for the clan leader who kicked you as he didn't come to you with these allegations.
Heck, one time, when I was a clan leader, I was in gludio on an alt when I overheard someone talking about a recent addition to my clan who scammed him.
So I pm'ed him, got the info, and did a bit of research myself. After it all, I only had heresay but this particular indiviudal did a few things in clan that always bothered me (asking for money and then asking for MORE money when he never paid back the initial loan - which of course I reminded him of).
So I reimbursed the person who said he got scammed and just kept a "watch" on my potential scammer. I had asked him about it but he denied the whole thing. I left it at that thinking that I would just watch and see if more allegations were reported.
Eventually it turned out that he was a scammer. He actually dropped clan. He also eventually came to our boards and said that a friend had control over his character and he didn't know that the friend was scamming, etc, etc.
I didn't buy it. But I felt that it was important not to jump to conclusions no matter what people said. Still, I didn't want to dismiss such a complaint.
As a clan leader you really should be taking care of your people but you also have to watch your clan's reputation.
As a clan leader you really should be taking care of your people but you also have to watch your clan's reputation.
Yep. As anyone who monitors the boards knows, I pride myself on my clan's 'legitimate' stance. Meaning no RMT, no botting, no scamming.
Well, we brought a member in the other day. He was the friend of an existing member, so we took a chance. Not even a full day later, we found him in a bot train. I watched him for about ten minutes, then dismissed him from clan and petitioned the GM with his name.
thanks for replys
i been reasoning with old cl for almost a hour,,i think things are sorted fingers crossed
thing is im now clanless from now on i never say anything in anger
just for the record 1 i dont ebay
2 i dont bot
3 i dont scam
if i find myself doing any of these i would seriously consider quitting the game........bb
If your new clan leader kicked you because the old clan leader said you cheat, and he didn't even try to talk to you or watch you before taking action. Then his clan isn't worth even trying to join again.
Well the best way to fix this is with blood, just find a clan that loves pvp join then and then declare war to both clans until clan leader 1 learns to let players go if they dont like his clan and clan leader 2 learns to ask for evidence before he jumps into conclusions and kick a player out of the clan
Not even a full day later, we found him in a bot train. I watched him for about ten minutes, then dismissed him from clan and petitioned the GM with his name.
Do you ever stop with your rigious, holier then all speech.
I mean seriously, you think every one has to play the way you want the game played.
Get over your self already, and stop acting like your so much better then every one else because you "play by the rules".
I'm so tried of people saying this that or the other. In a game like this, it's rather unlikely to get by with out some out sourcing for gold. A lot of really good people do it. Just because they play a class that requires hundards of millions of dollars doesn't make them a bad person.
Sure you can do it; I've managed to get by, But don't think I haven't thought about buying gold just about every day, Because I know it would make my life, and leveling a lot faster! (I can't afford it)
Not even a full day later, we found him in a bot train. I watched him for about ten minutes, then dismissed him from clan and petitioned the GM with his name.
Do you ever stop with your rigious, holier then all speech.
I mean seriously, you think every one has to play the way you want the game played.
Get over your self already, and stop acting like your so much better then every one else because you "play by the rules".
I'm so tried of people saying this that or the other. In a game like this, it's rather unlikely to get by with out some out sourcing for gold. A lot of really good people do it. Just because they play a class that requires hundards of millions of dollars doesn't make them a bad person.
Sure you can do it; I've managed to get by, But don't think I haven't thought about buying gold just about every day, Because I know it would make my life, and leveling a lot faster! (I can't afford it)
ROFL no, it doesn't work that way. Cheating is wrong no matter how much you want to do it. You will not starve or suffer if you don't cheat, you will simply not level as fast as you wish...and might have to be the same level as people you pvp...dear God...without a level advantage and ebayed gear, how would they get by?!
Do you ever stop with your rigious, holier then all speech.
Well, that was certainly hostile...
I mean seriously, you think every one has to play the way you want the game played.
If you're in my clan you do. Cheating is not tolerated, and my clan members know this. It's posted publicly, where all applicants can see it.
Get over your self already, and stop acting like your so much better then every one else because you "play by the rules".
As opposed to the ones that think they're better because they can afford RMT? Sorry, I earn my skill and reputation. I don't buy it.
I'm so tried of people saying this that or the other. In a game like this, it's rather unlikely to get by with out some out sourcing for gold. A lot of really good people do it. Just because they play a class that requires hundards of millions of dollars doesn't make them a bad person.
And it's still wrong. I've turned in a good real-life friend because he bought adena. I do not tolerate it, and it is the attitude of people like this, who try to justify it to themselves and others, that make me sick. It is against the rules.
Sure you can do it; I've managed to get by, But don't think I haven't thought about buying gold just about every day, Because I know it would make my life, and leveling a lot faster! (I can't afford it)
I thought about it. And then promptly shook my head and went back to reality. I will not cheat to make a game "better." I will not break the rules to do something I can do with just a little bit of work.
Holier than you? I don't know about that. But I guarantee you I'm more willing to report it.
Not even a full day later, we found him in a bot train. I watched him for about ten minutes, then dismissed him from clan and petitioned the GM with his name.
Do you ever stop with your rigious, holier then all speech.
I mean seriously, you think every one has to play the way you want the game played.
Jesus... You really need to [remove that object from your backside].
I don't know if you're new here or something, but seeing as jkoster is the leader of his clan, he has every right to make sure that his members are playing the game as he believes it should be played.
Players like jkoster gives me hope, that the player base isn't as rotten as I think it is ;)
Or was that too "holier than thou" for you?
If you can't deal with those with views radically different from your own, there's a lovely feature called "ignore user".
Worthier or not if it's cheating is a matter of opinion.
It's NCsofts opinion to force the idea upon it's player base.
The the player base who believes, or don't believe the opinion of the parent company worthier, or not if it's cheating.
Just because your forced to say "yes" to the EULA every time you log in doesn't mean you agree with all 1,000 rules and regulations that Parent company thinks Befits them to stay people from legally suing them for millions of dollars.
Maybe you all don't like my opinion, Maybe NCsoft doesn't like my opinion. However I live in a free nation where worthier you like it or not, I'm in titled to stating that opinion.
I fell sorry for this guy who got kicked from his latest clan, due to the slandering from a former "leader" of his last clan. He can if he places his plee before NCsoft in a well worded Email Have punitive actions take amongst that former "leader" for slandering his name.
The biggest problem is the dealing with Online legal issues such as this. One of the host of problems with the growing world, and the massive growth in the Internet.
Not even a full day later, we found him in a bot train. I watched him for about ten minutes, then dismissed him from clan and petitioned the GM with his name.
Do you ever stop with your rigious, holier then all speech.
I mean seriously, you think every one has to play the way you want the game played.
Get over your self already, and stop acting like your so much better then every one else because you "play by the rules".
I'm so tried of people saying this that or the other. In a game like this, it's rather unlikely to get by with out some out sourcing for gold. A lot of really good people do it. Just because they play a class that requires hundards of millions of dollars doesn't make them a bad person.
Sure you can do it; I've managed to get by, But don't think I haven't thought about buying gold just about every day, Because I know it would make my life, and leveling a lot faster! (I can't afford it)
If you're in my clan, you play by my rules. If you don't, you can find a new clan.
It's NCsofts opinion to force the idea upon it's player base.
If you're in my clan, you play by my rules. If you don't, you can find a new clan.
I have done that before. And I will continue to do so.
If I can't have the freedom I want, I wont hang out with you.
I've had clans try to force me not to PvP, I left. This game is made for PvP, not to grind 24/7. grinding is only a means to an end!! Thinking other wise means this game isn't for you!!!
I've hand Clans say, or do all kinds of things. then they started to change...I've seriously seen it all...and Knowing this Games market...I will not join any clan that refuses out sourcing! I hate hypocrites, and I will not conform to that form of idioticy....Like the form of what the OP's Past 2 "leader's" did to him.
I agree with D34dly not on the out sourcing thing but with hypocrite and controlling clans... It seems to me the "bad clans" on the server are the way to go.. They dont tell you what to do and most of the time they are all good players and will help you out..
Got sick of clans saying no pvp. That sucks i am a carebear when it comes to helping people even people i dont know but if someone is making me mad i want to be able to train them and not get kicked from a clan. *sigh* i guess all this is lose lose situation.
As for origional post i would train him repetedly for causing you such a problem then i would train your old clannies for not helping you out until they quit that clan for them being a @#$& to you :p
A lot of really good people do it ["outsourcing"].
No.
If you're cheating in a game, you're not a really good person; you're a cheating scumbag. And you'll get killed a few times, kicked out of the clan and petitioned if we ever find out you're doing it while in our clan. Even if you're my friggin' mother.
That's my clan's policy, and it's been applied to real-life friends and in-game acquittance alike. Don't like it, don't join us.
You follow the rules. Or you do not follow the rules.
Plain and simple, black and white. The moment you break the rules, you are a cheater, no matter for the reason you had for cheating. Some player, who is buying adena, cause they were scammed is in no way better than another player, who is buying adena from the start. Buying adena is cheating. Botting is cheating.
That said, NCsoft is making the rules and the players are to follow them. Wheter you like the rules or not, is of absolutely no importance to the matter.
And everyone who is playing by the rules, got the right to call out anyone, who is not playing by the rules, and especially those, who even promote such a behavior. That is not "holier than you", that is plain and simple the only way, that legal players can get rid of cheating scumbags.
There is no way to "somewhat" follow the rules.
You follow the rules. Or you do not follow the rules.
agree 100%. that said, there is not a single legit player in this game. you show me a real player that has gotten to level 80 without accidently causing a mob is go through a necro gk, or getting a tree in between a ranged mob and themselves, a player that never swears and never buys adena, a player that never trades to anyone that has bought adena. and ill /gm it becasue its probably getting stuck on rocks while looking for the next mob, with 8 similar players in tow. there ARE levels of ELUA breaking, using LOS rules to your advantage will not get you banned permanently. and its cheaper than bsoe ^^
PS: although i am fairly certain you can get a 3 day ban for LOS exploit, ive never heard of anyone in this game getting banned for buying adena with real money. it boggles the mind. would be nice if they would state what is bannable and what is not.
I'm so tried of people saying this that or the other. In a game like this, it's rather unlikely to get by with out some out sourcing for gold. A lot of really good people do it. Just because they play a class that requires hundards of millions of dollars doesn't make them a bad person.
They aren't bad but they are breaking the Rules of Conduct and are thus cheating. Many people see competitors that cheat as bad (in a game as well as in sports or any competitive situation in real life).
Sure you can do it; I've managed to get by, But don't think I haven't thought about buying gold just about every day, Because I know it would make my life, and leveling a lot faster! (I can't afford it)
The following rules govern basic interaction within the Lineage II game and the Lineage II website (including message boards). Please be aware that failure to comply with these rules of conduct may result in the termination of your Lineage II game account according to the Lineage II User Agreement
[...]
11. You may not advertise the intent to or commit the act of buying or selling items for cash or trading items from one server to another.
People who cheat seem to use all kinds of excuses/generalizations to try to excuse their cheating. Some of the excuses that we often see are things like 'Every body does it, there are no honest players', 'you have to cheat to be competitive', 'there are different levels of cheating', 'NCSoft's rules are not reasonable', ''other people get away with it so that gives me the right to do it', or 'I am above the rules becaus (fill in the blank here)'.
Excuses are excuses, all BS, each of us can decide not to cheat. Those who cheat made the decision to...and are worse people because of it. Personally, I believe that the kind of person who cheats in a game also will cheat in 'real life' and is the kind of person who I keep out of my life, I do not want them as friends.
So why do cheaters make such excuses? Honest people see right through them, as evidenced by the excellent replies to the cheaters' posts in this thread. I think that they are expressing the excuses that they use to convince themselves that their behavior is acceptable. In other words, they have fooled themselves...they have to fool themselves or they will experience internal emotional dissonance, conflicts, which they will have to deal with. By having such (lame) excuses they are able to avoid facing the personal truth of the kind of person that they are, a cheater.
I find L2 an amazing game, in part because such issues of honesty and decency versus dishonesty and cheating are often forced to the front of the players' lives. Because of the actions we take in the game, the kind of person that we are each, in our hearts, becomes evident. As I have progressed through my years in this game, I have certainly had things revealed to myself about myself and I think, nay I am confident, that I am a better person for it.
I have seen friends turn towards the good because of what they face in the game, and I have seen plenty of others make moral compromises and sadly choose the route of cheating and immorality. Former friends, the bittersweet of loss.
Excellent thread, excellent game, and many of the replies are from excellent people. I wish you were on Erica!
Honestly, I think - if you're going to cheat, cheat where it counts. Cheat somewhere where it doesn't shift two or three pixels your way, but where it raises your paycheck or something like that. Or better yet, don't cheat at all. Stick with the rules, they're there for a good reason.
If you don't think the anti-RMT rules are here for a good reason, or the anti-botting rules, I don't think anyone can help you. PvE is such a huge part of Lineage II that trying to imply it's 'just' anything is ridiculous. Those who did (or cheated) better at PvE win PvP, with a very small addition of required skill on top.
PvP is one big 'PvE comparison' - who has better gears, levels and the right level friends are the most important questions (although clan strength and skill also play a role - just not as large of one), and those are all answered in PvE after all.
The following rules govern basic interaction within the Lineage II game and the Lineage II website (including message boards). Please be aware that failure to comply with these rules of conduct may result in the termination of your Lineage II game account according to the Lineage II User Agreement
[...]
11. You may not advertise the intent to or commit the act of buying or selling items for cash or trading items from one server to another.
the missing part of this puzzle is that there is not a 1 to 1 relationship between breaking the EULA and being banned/warned. either they should enforce all the rules in the EULA, or tell us what is bannable and what is not. i pmed spam asking for the latter, and got no response. i assume this is because they do not just look at the type of violation, they ban on a case-by-case decision. honestly i think thats a lot better, but as i said, ive never heard of anyone every getting banned/warned from buying adena. a couple well-timed warnings would go a LONG way.
You'd be surprised how far you can go without outsourcing your in game cash and XP.
Never outsourced my adena, and I had A grade ready practically the minute I hit 61. I crafted my B grade and had Armor+weapon at 53. I have C and B grade ready for my sub, and still have 100m waiting to be spent.
Has it taken me 3 years to hit 75? Yes it has. Do I care? Not really. Im not a power gamer, I play for fun. I can still have fun PvPing without being 78/78/78. In fact, I DO have fun PvPing without it.
Cheating is Cheating. There is no leeway here. Read what the EULA says before you click ok. You ARE in fact AGREEING to ALL the rules contained within it. If you say you do NOT agree, you do not play. By agreeing, you are stating "Yes, I agree to abide by these terms" not "Let me play and I'll do whatever the hell I want". When NCSoft bans your ***, you have no recourse. Have a nice day, thanks for playing, gtho.
I'm very glad to see all these replies from the legit players and legit clans/clan leaders around.
Legit, unite! :)
Anyway back to the OP, I think your 2nd clan is worth applying again since your CL kicked you for a good reason, even if it came from a false information.
This is why I would never throw someone out of my clan for doing these things. My stance is, its your life, if you want to live it like this, then so long as you aren't hurting anyone I don't really care.
im still of the opinion that it is a sad, sad individual that feels the need to cheat in a game like this. my clan has dropped countless individuals that we've found to be not running their characters properly, or using improper means by which to obtain gear/adena. constantly we've had to deal with the "oh i never respond to pm/open/clan/ally/shout chat; i never respond to people ksing/flagging/pking me" (yeah, because everyone knows when u get flagged you're supposed to immediately sit down and take a heal pot; everyone knows that when pk'd ur supposed to leave your character in that location for the next 30minutes/hour/5hours). it is depressing to hear people in your chat exclaiming over their supposed new-found wealth; to see people who had nothing yesterday suddenly geared out in overplussed kit and now looking down their noses at everyone else. these types of characters reflect poorly on everyone bearing their tag. personally, i choose not to associate myself with any of them.
oc, it's too bad that your clan leader did not wait to speak with you before booting you from the clan, but from personal experience i know how it goes from the leadership perspective. hopefully you can work through your grievances and move forward. unfortunately, a bad name is difficult to overcome.
The problem is that cheating hurts the game, and it indirectly hurts every player.
This is why it is not tolerated in my clan. If you can't play by the rules, we have no use for you.
**edit**
We do not do witchhunts though. If a person is accused or suspected of cheating, there is an investigation done. We do not kick without evidence. It takes more than he said/she said and more than rumors.
The problem is that cheating hurts the game, and it indirectly hurts every player.
That's the point :)
As all i hate seeing these "not 100% humans players" running in catas... if you hate 'em as well, remeber from where the outsource cames from! cheating is not just "i spend my money", is also "i spend a little % of everyone else money", since we all pay to play, and seeing these things ruins our fun.
Apart of that, NCsoft is not selling adena, because the game is meant to be challenging and fun! if i have my A gear in WH ready at level 40... where's the fun of getting it? it's just a mindless xp run to finally wear it :)
and to the OP, i'm sorry your CL expelled from clan just due to a rumor... you can't do much apart of talking to him, if he's a reasonable person, he will admit you back. maybe the ex-CL was one he somehow trusted, and he kicked you in a moment of anger
hope all will be fine in the end ;)
This is why I would never throw someone out of my clan for doing these things. My stance is, its your life, if you want to live it like this, then so long as you aren't hurting anyone I don't really care.
Cheating hurts everyone who plays L2.
For example, things cost a lot of adena, right? Why have we had this inflation? People who buy adena get it from people who run bots which generate the adena. This increases the 'money supply' so there is more adena in the game for the same number of weapons and gear, so the cheaters 'bid' up the prices.
In other words, cheaters cause both bots and high prices when they buy adena. Don't like the prices, blame cheaters not NCSoft. Don't like bots, blame the cheaters not NCSoft.
If you know people who cheat, pile s**t on them because these in-game ills are their fault, and partially the fault of everyone who doesn't cheat but who doesn't act to stop it!
This is why I would never throw someone out of my clan for doing these things. My stance is, its your life, if you want to live it like this, then so long as you aren't hurting anyone I don't really care.
Cheating hurts everyone who plays L2.
Forget about everyone who plays, what about your clanmates and your clan's reputation?
The inflation is only caused in part by buying currency online. The full problem is much multitired and complicated. The people who do buy online currency have every desire to buy whatever they buy as cheaply as they can, seeing as they are actually paying real world money for items. The fact that they can buy, and in some cases do buy, items at a price higher than amount of money one would earn from grinding alone is not enough to show they cause the entire problem. Given the current state of every in game economy where all items are sold at a level well above the amount of adena that a player would earn fromn grinding, would cause one to think that everyone must be an ebayer, as there is no other way these prices could survive at such high levels for such an extended period of time and with no indication of ever falling to pre C2.5 levels with only ebayers contributing to the problem.
There obviously is more to the problem than just ebayers, and the rest of the inflation problem comes directly from game mechanics implemented by NCSoft such as 60% recipes, soulshots, summons, and basically every single thing in L2 which removes items from the game without also removing an amount of adena equal to the price of the items removes. The other big problem, the one which tosses everything over the top, are the players who participate in arbitrage, buying low and reslling high. This one little thing alone has ensured that it is impossible for any item to sell for less than the current market value of that item because players are always on the prowl for items which are selling for less than the current market price in order to make a quick buck, even if that price is the more fair price. Short of a farmer dropping 100,000 cbp in giran at only 50% of the price it was selling for just minutes earlier, there simply is no way for the price of an item to drop with the amount of arbitrage present in the game.
Inflation is caused by a large amount of adena in circulation compared to the amount of goods for purchase.
Your average player encounters plenty of adena sinks as they progress through the game. Your average farmer skips nearly all of those same money sinks - they rarely use the GK's, almost never use shots, nor do they use consumables like pots.
The result is that there is a massive group of people out there generating adena and avoiding the adena sinks.
This is a direct cause of inflation.
Arbitage has absolutely no impact on inflation, because a person can only charge what the market will bare for an item. Drac Bows on Gustin go for around 400 mil, and Boss jewelry is in the same category. It's not because someone is buying low and selling high.. it's because someone out there has that kind of adena and is willing to pay it. If no one had that much adena (because they weren't avoiding the adena sinks) then there's no way the price would be that high because it would simply be impossible to buy the item.
If you buy adena you are
A cheating
B lazy
C putting bots in my rooms you jerk
D All of the above.
Those who refuse to cheat, and make the committment to go seriously past A grade, are so much better at making money and xping it isnt funny. you are forced to continuously think of how to kill more faster cheaper. and that gives you something to think/talk about while doing it.
The reason that people buy adena is because it frustrates them so much that their own skills can't best others.
you know the funniest thing about ebayers and botters they cant pvp for crap they are totally reliant upon their gear as they never learned how the toons themselves function so when those of us get that same gear you cheaters and ebayers (all sing along) we gonna kick you *** we gonna kick your *** lol :P
RampantLiones
A GOOD WAR SMITH IS AN HONOURABLE ONE :)
90% of players on devianne can tell me EXCACTLY how much hp/mp i have. before i knew that cheat programs were even possible, i thought there was a game function that i didnt know about that let you do this, because EVERYONE seemed to be able to do it. and just yesterday i jokingly chastised a clannie because he asked why i type 923 instead of typing the actual swear (chat filter off). given that there are 0 (and i mean zero) legit players in game, what incentive does a new player have, to even attempt to never do anything they can be banned for? especially when several of the bannable offenses in game are bugs that NC has known about for the last three years and hasnt fixed, which new players invariably discover by accident.
PS: i get the vast majority of my money from bots. i find a group of them someplace and seed their mobs for hours on end. its agonizingly boring, but there is no way i could make that many fruits soloing without buffs. thats not 100% legit money in my pockets. is it cheating? NC says no.
PPS: another example. Alice buys adena online and then gives it, no strings attatched, to Bob. who is the cheater here? does it make a difference if Bob knew where the money came from? does it make a difference if Bob gives Alice a stem in return? how do GMs know that Bob didnt do something out of game to get Alice to give Bob the money? cant even imagine taxes on illegal adena sales. real world governments are trying to aquire a stake/role in this process. ludicrous. and all this puts gms in a very hard spot.
hehe i do the whole seeding of bots too and if bot master comes and annoys or pks me i come back and train and harrass his bots for a couple of weeks gives me something different to do other than lvling lol most bot masters dont bother with me anymore as they know once ive done my seeds i soe and naff off somewhere to do something else so less hassle for them to not annoy me :P
RampantLiones
A GOOD WAR SMITH IS AN HONOURABLE ONE :)
Just an excerpt of a Press Conference that was held yesterday for the new Warhammer upcoming MMO :
" The issue of buying in game loot or money in the secondary market also came up. Again Jeff got serious and said that EA Mythic is wholeheartedly against the sale of virtual currency. They are working very hard to combat the secondary market within game mechanics . Everything from the economy, loot, and crafting are being reviewed so that the secondary market won’t become a factor in the game. This was great to hear and it seems like the team is determined to keep gold farmers out through game design . Many other MMOs can learn a lesson from Warhammer if this tactic works. "
I think (as most of you already know what i think about the economy system here) that Lineage II is one of those game that could really "learn a lesson"...
Well, maybe it's too late for Lineage II, but at least Aion or Lineage III...
gl to them trying to keep it out
real money trade is in WOW so even if each mob drops a full weapon and armor for your grade you can expect that isnt good enough for some ppl
Designing a functional economy is next to impossible in MMORPGs; the very fact that money is created from nothingness when a monster dies, and returns to nothingness when given to an NPC, makes for a lot of challenges not faced in real economies.
And it's difficult to really make a game that won't have real money trades. Hell, even Guild Wars has RMT, and in that game, it really doesn't take long to get max gear (getting skills is much harder but you can't get them from ingame currency, just boss hunting). Only real benefit you get from RMTing in there is max gear that looks cooler than the cheap max gear, with identical stats.
And it's difficult to really make a game that won't have real money trades. Hell, even Guild Wars has RMT, and in that game, it really doesn't take long to get max gear (getting skills is much harder but you can't get them from ingame currency, just boss hunting). Only real benefit you get from RMTing in there is max gear that looks cooler than the cheap max gear, with identical stats.
And it's difficult to really make a game that won't have real money trades.
Yes you're right, it is nearly impossible to avoid RMT in any MMO, but here (imo, once again), everything was made from the start to promote it !
Ridiculously low mat drop + ridiculously high number of mats needed to create anything, quest rewards that suck (except for the "Clan Oath" quest that gives the Clan Armor, that is a good step in the right direction), ******ed private shop system, adena sinks everywhere (teleports, soulshots, ...), etc, etc, etc...
Like i said in my Grazzt Garage (http://l2vault.ign.com/View.php?view=Features.Detail&id=58) feature, i really like the hard aspect of the game and the sense of accomplishment you feel when you finally get something, but about the economy, it's not that it's hard (although i hate it i've more or less managed to get what i want until now), it's just (imo) boring, annoying and stupidly conceived.
This game is the most infected by bots of all MMO in the galaxy, and it's not only because of the players (if it was, you would see as much bots in other MMOs, which you dont), it's also 50% because of the way the economy was conceived from the start.
This is the economy (http://www.ultimatom.com/economy.jpg) in Lineage II, now dont tell me it's not laughable :p
I have no other choice so i use this economy system, but i know that the minute i realize i need RMT to keep on playing the game i will sure as hell quit. Some of my friends already did quit, because when reaching high levels they couldnt compete with the ebayers, but they were into heavy PvP and i'm not so i hope i might avoid their fate :eek:
No, everything here was made from the start for people not having full things and for a clan to work together - the basic outset of Lineage II, where items is concerned, is certainly the best of any MMO I've played. It's just that the game unfortunately through the constant advertising of something that does not wind up, in fact, providing the majority of in game activity (PvP) attracted the wrong kind of players.
As for designing to keep RMT? It's impossible. The only thing you can design for are mechanisms to trace, analyse and punish suspicious trades.
Now Maline, i know we always disagree on that one, but you cant say that this game attracts "the wrong kind of players"...
If it really was this way, the players would indeed be attracted, but then realize that this game isnt for them, and then just quit.
But it's not this way !
They (as in "me also") are attracted, realize that this game is awesome in almost every aspect, except for a single one that really sucks : the economy.
This is why we have endless threads here about bots, how to make adena in a non-boring-to-death way (which is almost impossible), suggestions about another economy system, etc...
Been a while since I posted but I thought I better clear things up.
OC left our clan (the original clan) on slightly bad terms. This was increased when he decided to start badmouthing the clan for no apparent reason. When we realised he had joined another clan our CL pmed the leader to warn him that he might be a trouble maker.
As for the other allegations if you would like screenshots can be posted to support them.
you dont have any chance to "compete" with ebayers/botters/heroes if you are not one. the best way ive found to "compete" is to avoid them while you get xp/gear/quests (and that means not being seen by spies at town GKs) and work together with their ebayer/botter/hero enemies, for occasional kills.
The inflation is only caused in part by buying currency online. The full problem is much multitired and complicated. The people who do buy online currency have every desire to buy whatever they buy as cheaply as they can, seeing as they are actually paying real world money for items. The fact that they can buy, and in some cases do buy, items at a price higher than amount of money one would earn from grinding alone is not enough to show they cause the entire problem. Given the current state of every in game economy where all items are sold at a level well above the amount of adena that a player would earn fromn grinding, would cause one to think that everyone must be an ebayer, as there is no other way these prices could survive at such high levels for such an extended period of time and with no indication of ever falling to pre C2.5 levels with only ebayers contributing to the problem.
There obviously is more to the problem than just ebayers, and the rest of the inflation problem comes directly from game mechanics implemented by NCSoft such as 60% recipes, soulshots, summons, and basically every single thing in L2 which removes items from the game without also removing an amount of adena equal to the price of the items removes. The other big problem, the one which tosses everything over the top, are the players who participate in arbitrage, buying low and reslling high. This one little thing alone has ensured that it is impossible for any item to sell for less than the current market value of that item because players are always on the prowl for items which are selling for less than the current market price in order to make a quick buck, even if that price is the more fair price. Short of a farmer dropping 100,000 cbp in giran at only 50% of the price it was selling for just minutes earlier, there simply is no way for the price of an item to drop with the amount of arbitrage present in the game.
legitimate players are equally to blame as the ebayers.
there would be no need for farmers, if EVERYONE had a bh and spent hours each day farming their own mats, no1 would be lvl 80 or close to it, let alone see lvl 70s - if you do it would be a rare thing.
without farmers you cannot buy the mats you need, the recs etc, so until clans/ppl start to be 100% self sufficient then farmers will always be needed ingame, because they do the "borning" stuff that real gamers cba with. fact. sad but true.
as for ebaying - its not hard at all - really, vor ncsoft to just employ sum webspectors to watch ebay and have a more concerted effort in working with them to lockdown adena sales/powerlvl services. i mean i can jsut type adena into ebay and how are they all up there still? the truth of the matter imho, is that farmers probably out weigh real gamers in numbers, thats a hell of alotta money coming in from them, thats profit margins that ncsoft wouldnt want to lose.
i think the farmers that just plain bot 24/7 that just camp rooms/spots non-stop are ******ed ones, unlike the ones who actually leave rooms/spots when u ask them kindly to ^^
i personally only petition the bad trains that just go auto hunt and ks, the others that give up rooms i dont bother petitioning at all - because theyre decent folk who let me do what i want ingame, grind up to pvp :)
legitimate players are equally to blame as us ebayers.
It's how your post would be read by most of legits, sorry. Even if you don't buy adena by yourself.
there would be no need for farmers, if EVERYONE had a bh and spent hours each day farming their own mats,
Irrelevant, even if were true (and it isn't). There would be no farmers if people did not buy ingame stuff for RL money, period.
no1 would be lvl 80 or close to it, let alone see lvl 70s - if you do it would be a rare thing.
Even if it were true, so what?
as for ebaying - its not hard at all - really, vor ncsoft to just employ sum webspectors to watch ebay and have a more concerted effort in working with them to lockdown adena sales/powerlvl services. i mean i can jsut type adena into ebay and how are they all up there still?
I'm sure that some people still try to buy adena on www.ebay.com. (http://www.ebay.com.) But most of them know cheaper places :p
off course there are more then 2 clans on server
the point is i dont like being accused of somthing that i dont do even though i did say in a pm conversation to someone out of anger that i take part in illegal activitys
i was happy in a clan untill they started bad mouthing me to other cl,,anyway im over it now all i wanted to see was what ppl view were about ppl giving other a bad reputaion
ps id like to close/lock this post
thanks for all that contributed
you can say anything about anyone, but not everyone will believe you. and if someone finds out that you made up what you said, that says something bad about you. does that help?
Just an excerpt of a Press Conference that was held yesterday for the new Warhammer upcoming MMO :
" The issue of buying in game loot or money in the secondary market also came up. Again Jeff got serious and said that EA Mythic is wholeheartedly against the sale of virtual currency. They are working very hard to combat the secondary market within game mechanics . Everything from the economy, loot, and crafting are being reviewed so that the secondary market won’t become a factor in the game. This was great to hear and it seems like the team is determined to keep gold farmers out through game design . Many other MMOs can learn a lesson from Warhammer if this tactic works. "
I think (as most of you already know what i think about the economy system here) that Lineage II is one of those game that could really "learn a lesson"...
Well, maybe it's too late for Lineage II, but at least Aion or Lineage III...
About warhammer... that's just some marketing, don't worry.
Either they won't have an ingame economy, or they'll have the same problems, or they will have so few customers that cheaters won't bother play this game:)
The economy in L2 is a tough part, such as leveling :)
It's a good one, where people are free to buy and sell what they want for the price they want. I don't say they sell, but there is no game restriction about it.
You can't ask to stop the economy system of the game, you could as well say "every mob in the world map should give a fixed % to any player of any level".
A lot of ppl (including me when I don't have time to hunt, often during the week), play a lot more on the market than on the hunting field.
Don't get me wrong, our little automated friends and RL rich kids are a BIG problem. Again, I'm sure the best solution is to enforce the rules/EULA and ban them...
About warhammer... that's just some marketing, don't worry.
Either they won't have an ingame economy, or they'll have the same problems, or they will have so few customers that cheaters won't bother play this game:)
Ooh i wouldnt bet on that, i'm pretty sure they'll have LOTS of players, probably more than we have here...
About the economy, sure they will have the same problems, every game has them, but not in the same amount !
Come on, you gotta be honest here and admit that Lineage II has the most bots of every MMO in the galaxy ! And bots that you can actually SEE, and see everywhere, because they know they wont have any problems with the GMs or anything ! There's gotta be a reason...
The economy in L2 is a tough part, such as leveling :)
It's a good one, where people are free to buy and sell what they want for the price they want. I don't say they sell, but there is no game restriction about it.
He he exactly, and they do sell by the way, just see my post on "Base Market Value".
But no, i still dont think that the economy here is a good one, even if i take advantage of it.
A player-driven economy is a good one, but a prices-gone-totally-mad-and-out-of-control is the symptom that the economy is all wrong...
SWG had a totally-player-driven economy, but the prices were always reasonnable (well, except for some dudes who tried to scam, but they'll be everywhere), why cant we have that with Lineage II ?
Don't get me wrong, our little automated friends and RL rich kids are a BIG problem. Again, I'm sure the best solution is to enforce the rules/EULA and ban them...
Well, there's probably a good reason why NCSoft doesnt ban them then...
Maybe they think the game would be impossible to play for most players, and thus those players would leave, leaving only a very small bunch of non-cheating players ? If the only players that were left are the ones that post on these forums (admitting that the people who say "i dont cheat" on these forums actually dont), i dont think this game would live for very long...
But, by thinking like this, they kinda admit that there's a problem with their ingame economy...
QFT :D
The prices in L2 are only mad if you haven't gotten your arms around how the economy works, and figured out your place in it.
Once a person finds a good niche, and there are many, it's fairly easy to get what you want.
The economy is the game in L2. XP is simple, go out and grind. Hardly takes any brains at all to do that. Now getting the adena to fund your grinding, get new gear, and maybe a few little extras, now that's the hard part.
Come on, you gotta be honest here and admit that Lineage II has the most bots of every MMO in the galaxy !
Agreed. It's heart breaking to visit Dark Elf village and realize what a new player will see when starting the game.
A player-driven economy is a good one, but a prices-gone-totally-mad-and-out-of-control is the symptom that the economy is all wrong...
[...]why cant we have that with Lineage II ?
If some ppl couldn't get tons of adena in a "bad" way, they wouldn't be able to pay a lot for items, so the prices would decrease.
Well, there's probably a good reason why NCSoft doesnt ban them then...
Maybe they think the game would be impossible to play for most players, and thus those players would leave, leaving only a very small bunch of non-cheating players ? If the only players that were left are the ones that post on these forums (admitting that the people who say "i dont cheat" on these forums actually dont), i dont think this game would live for very long...
But, by thinking like this, they kinda admit that there's a problem with their ingame economy...
QFT :D
You meant CQFD ? :)
There might be a need for a balance, even for NC. They would probably lose too much money if they removed 100% of the bad apples. And it's a cost for them too, to have ppl working on that (even with GM powers, they're not gods but still humans, and there must be hundreds of automated friends for 1 GM).
Anyway, I think they neglect the legit players way too much. I know a bunch of legit who quit because of that (I quit too during nearly a year, which made me miss the whole age of splendor :/ )
Let's keep hope alive though. And keep bugging them with our threads that will be locked/deleted...
If some ppl couldn't get tons of adena in a "bad" way, they wouldn't be able to pay a lot for items, so the prices would decrease.
Or you could also put it the other way around : if some ppl didnt have to pay a lot for items, they wouldnt even need to get their adena in a "bad" way ;)
You meant CQFD ? :)
Well, yeah, kinda, i auto-quoted myself for truth here :D
Anyway, I think they neglect the legit players way too much. I know a bunch of legit who quit because of that (I quit too during nearly a year, which made me miss the whole age of splendor :/ )
Well, i dont know, i havent reached very high levels yet so i dont know about Raid Boss Farmers or anything, but at my range of level, bots are not so much annoying, when i need a room in the Catas or something, i just tell them to leave and most of the time they do.
Of course it drives me quite mad to see all of them everywhere with their stupid names, but it's more because i know what they are symbolizing than because they prevent me from actually playing...
Or you could also put it the other way around : if some ppl didnt have to pay a lot for items, they wouldnt even need to get their adena in a "bad" way ;)
No no no no no no no no no no no no.
It's not because they see a ring for 500 M that they MUST have these 500 M. It's a matter of supply and demand, there will always be richer and poorer people. It's the natural way of things. Else everyone would have exactly the same amount of money and gears, and then there would be no/zero/nada economy.
Well, i dont know, i havent reached very high levels yet so i dont know about Raid Boss Farmers or anything, but at my range of level, bots are not so much annoying, when i need a room in the Catas or something, i just tell them to leave and most of the time they do.
Of course it drives me quite mad to see all of them everywhere with their stupid names, but it's more because i know what they are symbolizing than because they prevent me from actually playing...
It's not because they let you kill your 3 mobs that they're not hurting you indirectly. Think of what they'll do with the farmed adena.
There is no excuse and no reason to ebay - join a co-operative clan, or, failing that, learn how to make your own money. The game was meant to be played in the former, but people do not do this, and THAT is the reason there is a problem.
The only really outrageously hard to get items are B Grade recipes and key materials, everything else (espeically A Grade) a good clan can easily create in co-operative effort.
If someone hates the game so much they want to give someone else their real life money to play it for them they should simply join a different one that doesn't involve making money as one of the key aspects of progress.
It's not because they see a ring for 500 M that they MUST have these 500 M.
Of course, i totally agree with you, but you're missing my point.
What i was saying is, in a normal balanced game, there would be no way you would even see a ring selling at 500M !
It's not because they let you kill your 3 mobs that they're not hurting you indirectly. Think of what they'll do with the farmed adena.
No, in a normal game in C1 things were a lot cheaper and people still had to gather and craft their own stuff because it was impossible to buy full items - why? Because there were no overpriced items you could have sold for profit.
Back then people ebayed 500k and it made a huge difference, now they ebay 500mil and it makes the same difference.
There is no excuse and no reason to ebay - join a co-operative clan, or, failing that, learn how to make your own money.
I hope this one's not for me :eek:
Besides, we are in the same very co-operative Clan :p
Of course i'm not trying to find excuses for ebaying, i'm just saying that with a better designed economy system, there wouldnt be any need (or, ok, very little need) for ebaying...
I know we dont agree on this Maline, but, come on, i guess you must have played some other MMO, did you see so many threads on those other forums about rethinking the economy system ?
Which leads us to your next point :
The game was meant to be played in the former, but people do not do this, and THAT is the reason there is a problem.
Ok then, what you are saying is that NCSoft designed a game meant to be played by maybe 100.000 people in the whole world who would find it fun to waste their time "playing the market"...
Then they realized that, for this game to live, they needed a lot more than the small amount of people for which they designed the game in the first place, that's why they kinda allow bots, so that a lot more people can play it ?
That makes sense :)
If someone hates the game so much they want to give someone else their real life money to play it for them they should simply join a different one
I totally agree with this on this one... see, we can find some things we agree on :D
Of course i'm not trying to find excuses for ebaying, i'm just saying that with a better designed economy system, there wouldnt be any need (or, ok, very little need) for ebaying...
There is no need for ebaying now. It's just some people want to make shortcuts by cheating. And as long as the game has any economy at all, the same people will still want to cheat.
There is no need for ebaying now. It's just some people want to make shortcuts by cheating. And as long as the game has any economy at all, the same people will still want to cheat.
You're still missing the point.
This thread falls under the "General Discussion" category, so that's what it is, a general discussion... Of course (and fortunately) not everyone need to ebay, like Maline said when you're in a good Clan and when you're not too dumb you can get pretty much everything you want !
But, as a General Discussion, like it or not, want it or not, there is more need for ebaying in this game than in every other MMO out there...
Or if not, what are you saying ? That all the cheaters in the world are coming to this game, and leaving the other games alone ? How come ?
Now you can burry your head in the sand and pretend that there's absolutely no problem with the economy as it is, just because you, me, and some other people out there manage to get what they want the "right" way, or you can open your eyes and realize that in every MMO forum or discussion, whenever you happen to mention the name "Lineage II" you're always faced with "Oh yeah, that bot-infested game where everyone ebays to get their stuff !"
And once again, this is General Discussion and not Game Suggestions because i really think that it's too late to do anything now, there can be some little adjustments but the problem will probably always be there, because of the way this economy system was designed in the first place...
Now some of us here seem to like the way it was designed, good for them, but nevertheless it's still the reason why we have so many bots and ebayers...
That's why i was quoting Warhammer, because they want to design from the start an ingame economy where there will be as little need as possible to ebay...
Of course there's always gonna be some cheaters, in every game, and even in real life as a matter of fact, but in this particular game it has gone totally out of control :eek:
But, as a General Discussion, like it or not, want it or not, there is more need for ebaying in this game than in every other MMO out there...
Or if not, what are you saying ? That all the cheaters in the world are coming to this game, and leaving the other games alone ? How come ?
And how would you tell that it has any relation to the game's economy system?
The game is hard. If you want to "pwn" here, you can get better benefits if you cheat, as NCsoft doesn't ban you for that (they should, but they don't). But actually in this case you spend RL money on a poor version of Counterstrike, just to be able to "pwn" those who actually play L2.
And the only way why it happens is because levels+gear+uberclass >>> players' skills in this game most of the time. No relation to economy system at all; except that the "gear" was supposed to be exclusive in the first place, and didn't show on the market at all... but in the current game is accessible to ebayers.
Now you can burry your head in the sand and pretend that there's absolutely no problem with the economy as it is,
No. We are saying that the problem isn't in the economy.
Grazzt,
We're not comfortable with the idea you mention, that there is a need to buy adena. But I think we see your point.
Some people feel the need to buy, because they feel the need to have everything.
Would you like a big house or a castle, a nice car, etc, IRL? I would like it, but I can't afford it, and I won't go rob a bank in order to get it.
Some people will go rob a bank. It happens sometimes. Should we remove every bank in the world to solve the problem?
Isn't it better to enforce the law to prevent and punish bank robery? And improve the education to decrease the number of criminals/robbers?
The L2 economy is well designed and operating great...in fact, it mirrors the real world economy. It is driven by supply and demand, that is what sets the prices.
To better understand the L2 economy and to help figure out how to profit from it, I suggest reading your old sophomore level MacroEconomics textbook. Or, if you skipped that class, buy one and read it and it will explain the 'Invisible Hand' which rules the market.
Since the L2 economy mirrors the real world economy, we can also know that any attempts to 'fix' the market with outside controls would have effects similar to government price controls in a real world economy: it would Royally mess things up in all kinds of unpredictable ways.
We are far better off letting the market run itself than we would be if NCSoft made any intervention.