In most all online games when you cast sleep on a Mob it stays asleep and you can atack it a few times befor it wakes up. Here the sleep spell is no diffrent then dryad root. Yet dryad they can cast on you or shoot arrows. Yet sleep should keep them asleep for a bit and allow you to hit them. The spell waits forever to cast and you get 0 output from it to have a effect you need or want from it.
I can see this being a problem in pking but that can be fixed.
In most all online games when you cast sleep on a Mob it stays asleep and you can atack it a few times befor it wakes up. Here the sleep spell is no diffrent then dryad root. Yet dryad they can cast on you or shoot arrows. Yet sleep should keep them asleep for a bit and allow you to hit them. The spell waits forever to cast and you get 0 output from it to have a effect you need or want from it.
I can see this being a problem in pking but that can be fixed.
{sleep sleep}
It's not a bad skill. If you want a few hits in, try stun skills. Sleep is most useful to incapacitate a monster/player while you're fighting a different one. You're asking Sleep to become like Anchor.
In most all online games when you cast sleep on a Mob it stays asleep and you can atack it a few times befor it wakes up. Here the sleep spell is no diffrent then dryad root. Yet dryad they can cast on you or shoot arrows. Yet sleep should keep them asleep for a bit and allow you to hit them. The spell waits forever to cast and you get 0 output from it to have a effect you need or want from it.
I can see this being a problem in pking but that can be fixed.
{sleep sleep}
sleep works fine for me as it is. My Elven Elder uses it quite frequentley just to avoid fighting that one extra mob in a group. A lot of its use is in the timing though. I use sleep more as a pre-emptive strike skill.
In groups its great too if your party member is pulling too much agro.
yeah as a dorf i dont want sleep returned the reason it was nerfed was because in pvp the nuker classes where not actually pvping especially against the slower classes like dorfs they would sleep you poison you then it would just be a simple case of nuke sleep nuke sleep nuke sleep repeat untill dead
RampantLiones
A GOOD WAR SMITH IS AN HONOURABLE ONE :)
Wow and here i was thinking every newbie knew to buff with mental shield.....i guess i as wrong.So tell me:How come archer stun isnt nerfed?Its MUCH better than sleep in all cases.
well as a dorf my high con makes me resistant to stun attacks anchor yes i do agree that lasts way too long and lands way too oftenif they gonna keep the duration of anchor on as long as they do what i think they should do imo is make it that as soon as anchor lands the toon who is anchored goes white instantly unless its a red of course then kill away lol
RampantLiones
A GOOD WAR SMITH IS AN HONOURABLE ONE :)
big big difference between sleep and stun
back in the sleep nuke days land rate of sleep with mental shield, mdef and top grade jewles +3 was about 40% against an equal lvl nuker
it had basically zero cooldown and cost in a split second even from SH
it didnt even matter if it landed every time or not nukers would just nuke/sleep non-stop and if you got anywhere near them instead of going nuke/sleep they just stanted going sleep/sleep/sleep until it landed took a few steps back and started again
you would not believe the amount of fights i seen where the poor victim didnt even move one step forward before getting re slept
Lol?And when was that?In C2?Because when i joined in C3 with ++++matk setup i couldnt land 2/10 sleeps at all.
But i guess you would know better than someone that PLAYS a nuker right?Why did they nerf mental aegis?Because you had almost complete immunity vs sleep.Oh and if we start talking about old sleep than how about old stun?The one that DIDNT break?
Oh and lets say you sleep the poor guy.What then?Heal yourself->hit him->hes awake.Its not like anchor lasts 15+ sec in which i can deal 50k dmg nooooo.Or maybe stun?5 sec?5 nukes....
I was using sleep for PvE anyway.The deletion of sleep is ugly.I WANT MY SP BACK!
And why would a necro use sleep anyway?Yup THEY DONT!
Anchor anyone?Vamp claw?On higher lvls the insane curses:banes and doom.Summon?2x the HP of ANY OTHER NUKER?Yeah right necro REALLY needs sleep....
nameless?What does a guy with a buff pet SE knows ANYTHING about the game?He never played it as it was intended anyway.And nerfing a class because its strong with an SE is STUPID imo.
Anchor last 30 sec
Stun last 8 sec if NOBODY hit the target, On average it break on 2,6 hits. ( or other hand around 1 sec stun )
Stun got changed in C1, and not C3 as where you joined you would have no idea.
And btw last Lisail, nameless1 got an 75+ necro, why which he used to lv fast with to get to nobless status.
Anchor is hax at higher levels when the necro pluses out the chance of landing on it. It lasts more than enough time for the person to get killed.
As for stun, even when buffed up against it when I see an archer lining it up I know I'm going to get stunned. Its just ther bad luck of my toon but you'd swear it had 100% land rate. I fought an enemy archer in the olympiad and had the rest of my ally members chearing me on/coaching me and they all started laughing when I got stunned off the first shot because it never broke for the whole fight. I didn't get to nuke even once.
And why would a necro use sleep anyway?Yup THEY DONT!
Anchor anyone?Vamp claw?On higher lvls the insane curses:banes and doom.Summon?2x the HP of ANY OTHER NUKER?Yeah right necro REALLY needs sleep....
nameless?What does a guy with a buff pet SE knows ANYTHING about the game?He never played it as it was intended anyway.And nerfing a class because its strong with an SE is STUPID imo.
i hate telling nukers how stuff works but i guess i have to again
the 40% sleep land rate is something i tested personally, being a dwarf at the time - highest mdef melee class without masteries it landed on me 40% of the time (ignoring wit recent change)
the 20% you are talking about was prolly for ppl wearing NM back in those days you were considered a noob if you ever dared fight a nuker in anything else
my necro sub was actually lvled during the sleep nerf so i kinda understand how it worked
i ended up going from being able to agro 10 or 12 mobs without useing pots or vamp claw to only being able to agro 8 or so, honestly it broke my heart and i feel for you guys
Yeah riiiight.Not only does a necro has TWICE as much HP but he ALSO has vamp claw which is >>>>>aura flare.Why the heck you need sleep for?1 Vamp claw and you are full hp again.
As ive stated you got 0! XP with a nuker.Erase that necro sub and go make a sorc.Then come back and tell me how you can aggro 8 mobs and dont bsoe out of there.Oh wait you just dont want to leave your fotm class behind i sooo /cry for you.
I hate to tell this over and over to fighters but here it is!The HOLY truth! NECRO IS NOT A SORCERER.
Oh and your necro was lvled with an SE buff pet so you /fail by default.
I guess I fail too because I leveled my SE with my SH and then used the SE to level my SPS. Before and after the sleep/sleep cloud nerf.
Don't be bitter just because you didn't have the same options as other people.
Sleep, IMO, is next to completely useless for any healer pre trance (did an EE in c5), and almost pointless to keep on the bar for a SH/sps (I don't have a sorc). I keep sleep cloud on if I do group mobs only for preemptive strikes but even then half of the time it doesn't land on them all or I pull aggro before it gets off.
And to the OP, that would be crazy overpowered if you could wake a mob or person a couple times before sleep wore off. It's supposed to be used to sleep one mob immobile while you take care of another.
Yeah riiiight.Not only does a necro has TWICE as much HP but he ALSO has vamp claw which is >>>>>aura flare.Why the heck you need sleep for?1 Vamp claw and you are full hp again.
As ive stated you got 0! XP with a nuker.Erase that necro sub and go make a sorc.Then come back and tell me how you can aggro 8 mobs and dont bsoe out of there.Oh wait you just dont want to leave your fotm class behind i sooo /cry for you.
I hate to tell this over and over to fighters but here it is!The HOLY truth! NECRO IS NOT A SORCERER.
Oh and your necro was lvled with an SE buff pet so you /fail by default.
thats true anyone who has ever duel boxed knows nothing about the game so i assume you duel box
i will begin this post by saying i never play my necro now, ppl can make fun of me because i chose to play my dwarf main instead of my nearly FOTM necro but the only reason i made the thing was to lvl to nobless fast (i think 6 weeks was fast enough)
the only time i ever change to the necro now is if a friend needs to do the 700 mobs part of the nobless quest because it kills at least 20* faster
for starters you dont use vamp claw, summons or anchor in pve they are either mp inefficient or in the case of the summon a waste of money and xp
99% of my necro's xp time was doing 1 of 2 things death spike death spike target new mob or cdl target new mob cdl
heres some stuff i had to deal with on my necro that you guys dont have to worry about anymore
spells no longer fail - yeah i know im old school but i remember way back in the day you would nuke a mob and not be guaranteed it would hit for full damage every single time
herbs - im pretty sure herbs dropped back when i started the necro but i sure as hell never got herbs that gave me 3k hp and 3k mp
elixers - back in my day you couldnt just click a button and get back 80% of your hp, if you wanted that sorta healing you either needed a.... um healer or a truck load of QHP
who knows maybe a gimp dorf with a 75 necro knows nothing about how nukers work so maybe i should get my sister to teach you a thing or two, she plays a lvl 78 spellsinger and i know shes like an uber genious and stuff so maybe it doesnt count but she managed to adapt to the changes so it could be possible
Rofl to both of you.I have the same option like both of you.Buy a second account and "play" like that.So why dont i just 3-4 box mhmm?
In C4 i saw on ToI 7 a sorc that "soloed" angels.With his 3 boxes.Hes curently 79/77 and prolly gonna be hero with his +6 arcana mace and +9 skills.But what do i know?
I also remember when spell were failing....and herbs didnt exist.Ill ask one very little question.How many HP herbs drop?And how many MP?Full MP herb drops have low chance so the chance to get nothing out of them is big.And i for one wont risk dieing to try and get such a herb.
Elixirs got vast recharge for a reason.
Yup ill say it again-you know NOTHING of a sorc sorry.Both of you can hunt non stop because you have an SE with you.Just go out with an SpS and try soloing without an SE.Wanna see how your doing with those oh so powerfull herbs.And dont forget fighters get it too.
Summon is not a waste of money/xp when you got a ton of wars that much is clear.Vamp claw is ALSO important for all those "oh f..k" moments you get.
Adapt?When someone (NCSoft) removes something from a class so late in the game they should offer some kind of class transfer.I sure as hell would use it.
I DIDNT CHOOSE TO PLAY THE SORC CLASS AS IT IS NOW!
tell ya what lisail no summoner nor necro has 2x the hp of a sorc. nowhere close. youre assuming you actually need to cut through the HP of the summon; you dont.
i see necro's go down pretty fast to sorcs and SH's simply because Transfer pain sux nutz.
and i can level just fine as a solo sorc. if you can't, well maybe you need to try a different method of grinding solo.
I see a necro wartag running towards me.....i start with surrender he starts with gloom.
You hit for 492 dmg.
The anchor effect flows trough you (or w/e its called) necro wins.492 to necro 492 to summon.And you cant just IGNORE a nuker hitting you for you to kill the summon.Yeah i do 2k on the summon but by the time i kill it either silence/anchor landed or he did 1463452412341 dmg to me.
level doesnt matter. the damage isnt automatically transferred to the summon. its done by way of Transfer pain which at its maximum transfers only 50% of the damage received to the summon.
I used sleep before Trance and now that I have Trance still use it.
It's an excellent skill, you just have to know what you're doing.
Of course, if your party is so awesome that it can rip the whole room apart in a matter of seconds, you don't need it - but then, that's not how all parties run.
I wouldn't play a SPS without at least a SE, there's no two ways about it. You can get bent all your want over it, if I didn't have my own I'd party one or not play a sps.
No class was meant to SOLO to high levels in this game. Not a one. We're debating that over in general about race specific leveling, it would be painful if not impossible. Just don't think you're some kind of martyr because you want to suffer through pure soloing.
And back on topic, sleep really should have never been given to nukers but sleep cloud should have stayed unique and not screwed on sorcs/sps :/
Or yeah?Tell that to the soloing necros/shs.My class is being balanced (read nerfed) with SE in mind.Which is WRONG.I dont wanna play half a class.
Ppl that have an SE buff pet never really consider what they get from it.
This is an MMO, not a solo game, you can still solo thought, and it should be risky. Pulling one to many mobs SHOULD result in death.
You know what? Just pulling 2 mobs at the same time soling with my dwarf means death if I don't spam pots, pulling 3 and pots don't even help. For most nukers the 'death' doesn't apply before 4-5 mobs even without sleep ( 1x will say ).
Summoners, maybe. But then, they were given group capabilities - and their soloability cost them incredible amounts of damage output for a long time.
An SH/Necromancer can not solo too well without empower either. And once again, look to TKs, look to BHs, look to warlords, look to daggers, look to archers (a joke without buffs), look to SKs, look to paladins ... sure they can solo in herb fields, it's just painful. And of course, sorcs/sps can solo there as well.
And, last but not least - if you don't have an SE pet, get to know some live ones, it ain't that hard.
sleep imo should be given back to the healer/buffer classes as it is unfair to them they use sleep as crowd control for mobs nukers should have their sleep left nerfed as is they dont need it and it makes pvp fairer
RampantLiones
A GOOD WAR SMITH IS AN HONOURABLE ONE :)
Sleep is usable in CC - if you can kill the mob faster than you could have slept it, you either
A) don't have a cast speed setup (your loss) or
B) should have windshackled it anyhow for better MP use or
C) are a bishop and deserve no more love after Interlude anyway. :(
name 1 game where sleep acts different than in L2..
i'll give you the original game that designed the spell sleep. Dungeons & Dragons, when you cast sleep in that game wither it be board based or vidoe game based. The spell holds for a few hits and if your lucky alot longer. the simple point is the true spell called sleep was design to knock out a monster and give the player a chance to inflict extra damage befor it woke up. Games that dont have sleep have replaced it with players called Bards. they sing ther emonsters to sleep and get the same desired effect as the old spell.
There are ways to allow spells to hold true to there creator, with out unbalancing pvp. You could always grant players a higher resistance to it. my point on the spell is for Monsters only. i do understand having the spell, to do what it was created for in pvp would almost get rid of any combat skill. Only diffrence i remmber from the sleep spell from D&D it was kinda a area effect spell to. :)
Knowing D&D is a older model to compare this too, yet it is the basic game design all online **** and slash games run with. You just dont see the dice roll hehe. There have been other off springs of the version sleep later on in games such as might and magic games. These games also put the mod to sleep {almost forever!}. Given the casting time for this version of sleep in L2 i can go out and make me a sandwhich and comeback and maybe its casted already lol. The newer games today that use the spell sleep, do put the monster to sleep but have a checking system each time you hit them. this system will roll a dice and wake him or her up depending on the casters power or if some other factor plays in. Alot of online game barding systems use this kinda check rate ordeal. I could be wrong about D&D being the first to use the term sleep in there spells. this is just a example when i first came across the spell in a game.
I'm sure there are other games that use the spell sleep, or call it something else. If a monster puts you to sleep i bet he can hit you more time then you can hit him while he is asleep. Although this is probly true in many games but is it balance.
sleep imo should be given back to the healer/buffer classes as it is unfair to them they use sleep as crowd control for mobs nukers should have their sleep left nerfed as is they dont need it and it makes pvp fairer
Well, they do, although they get it at higher levels so there's a level region where their sleep really sucks. But both the Bishop and the Elven Elder (who were the only healers to get sleep post-40) now get Trance which is basically C4 sleep.
Not in pool of radiance it was not. i just loaded that old disk to test it. it was a area effect spell and it was turn based then they woke up.
That's because it doesn't completely follow D&D rules. D&D is a pen and paper RPG; none of the computer games follow the rules completely, and most of them make substantial alterations (how many AD&D games, for example, require material components for the spells the AD&D books say need materials?).
No really, the spell is still fine. Of course you need buffs, of course you need cast speed robes, of coures you need an acumen weapon - but at least for EEs that's required post-40 anyway unless they want to battle-heal constantly.
I could CC FotD decently at level 53 thanks to sleep - that should say something about how useless the spell is. Sure, I couldn't always get it to stick, but how idiotic is actually being able to 'be able to always get a 30 second full CC spell to stick' on mobs what, 20 levels higher than myself?
I wish they just made sleep with very long reuse time instead of a long cast time then a mage can still have a card without using a bsoe. And it would still be useful.
sleep is fine!!! :D lol
its all about planning. I don't think i've ever used sleep in the middle of solo battle when i'm getting hit but before hand I can quite comfortably sleep a ranged mob and not have to deal with his agro.
Second edition but it is the answer to his question. Might and magic played off of Second edition rules too. Not sure what you can call the new rules maybe 3rd? Maybe a new class is needed, Bard? :)
Sleep used to be powerful control... now its a fossil.
It used to be very fast cast and have no recast, and have a high hit rate.... worse, cancel automatically killed the only buff which gave you any chance to resist it.
What sleep needed was a realistic resist rate (and cancel needed the nerf) and a reasonable recast time.
What it got is the worst nerf in the history of L2.
There are some who are extremely happy with something they were annoyed with being made completely pointless...
Sleep in its current form is a massively weak form of control that takes forever to cast.
It really isn't worth SP now.
Don't bother training it, its that simple.
(to make you feel any better other classes have completely pointless skills as well...)
Sleep used to be powerful control... now its a fossil.
It used to be very fast cast and have no recast, and have a high hit rate.... worse, cancel automatically killed the only buff which gave you any chance to resist it.
What sleep needed was a realistic resist rate (and cancel needed the nerf) and a reasonable recast time.
What it got is the worst nerf in the history of L2.
There are some who are extremely happy with something they were annoyed with being made completely pointless...
Sleep in its current form is a massively weak form of control that takes forever to cast.
It really isn't worth SP now.
Don't bother training it, its that simple.
(to make you feel any better other classes have completely pointless skills as well...)
I really disagree.
Sleep lands often enough for me and it has plenty of uses. ppl are still capable of using it.
The method of using it has probably changed but that shouldn't matter.
If all your after is a quick solution to a problem then you shouldn't really be using sleep. :p
I really disagree.
Sleep lands often enough for me and it has plenty of uses. ppl are still capable of using it.
The method of using it has probably changed but that shouldn't matter.
If all your after is a quick solution to a problem then you shouldn't really be using sleep. :p
After you get yourself some more experience you will figure out that instead of casting sleep you could have used the cast time and mana on something else and benefitted yourself and your party quite a bit more.
No, sleep holds longer than Trance, and if your party is not an ubersuperduper archer, nuker or pole party, well worth the cast time (i.e. if they're not going to get back to the mob within the ten seconds trance lasts).
Depending on who is tanking or getting hit, sleep is often a better investment than letting the mob run amok, potentially aggroing healers and squishies all over for thirty seconds.
Sleep takes around 2~3 seconds to cast, that means a single sleeper can control pretty much 8 or so mobs safely (assuming sleep fails every other cast, which it really doesn't unless you're sleeping red sleep resist mobs) without putting too much of a strain on his or her MP. In a bad pull, that is an incredible service to the party - eight mobs whacking on whoever take a hell of a lot of MP to outheal.
Sleep, unlike the mirage, was superuberduber (as you said, a solution to everything) before it was nerfed - it is still very usable now. It is good now, it is no longer overpowered. Overpowered -> Good is still far better than average->utterly worthless.
The now-1-crys summons were inflicted with a 90% exp penalty (and yes, that does actually make them utterly useless in PvE) and in addition moved from being able to cast almost as continuously as a nuker to having a reset of almost 10 seconds on their nukes. That is a nerf.
Edited: Figures - it's 15 seconds. Considerably shorter than sleep ... but yes, boosting its duration to maybe a minute might be nice.
Worth noting though - utterly unbuffed, sleep takes me (and I don't have A Grade robes yet) pretty much exactly 3 seconds to cast. With just acumen and zerk, that drops down to two-something, in A Grade robes it should be a clean 2. It is not the huge investment of time it is made out to be.
well sleep cloud was to crazy yes i give you that
the normaal sleep (PVE) wise not only the mages but support class's got screwed with sleep
their is no single point in sleeping now with a SE they are better of casting Root or something just hope your Mob dont cast magic or stuff.
No, sleep holds longer than Trance, and if your party is not an ubersuperduper archer, nuker or pole party, well worth the cast time (i.e. if they're not going to get back to the mob within the ten seconds trance lasts).
Depending on who is tanking or getting hit, sleep is often a better investment than letting the mob run amok, potentially aggroing healers and squishies all over for thirty seconds.
Sleep takes around 2~3 seconds to cast, that means a single sleeper can control pretty much 8 or so mobs safely (assuming sleep fails every other cast, which it really doesn't unless you're sleeping red sleep resist mobs) without putting too much of a strain on his or her MP. In a bad pull, that is an incredible service to the party - eight mobs whacking on whoever take a hell of a lot of MP to outheal.
Sleep, unlike the mirage, was superuberduber (as you said, a solution to everything) before it was nerfed - it is still very usable now. It is good now, it is no longer overpowered. Overpowered -> Good is still far better than average->utterly worthless.
The now-1-crys summons were inflicted with a 90% exp penalty (and yes, that does actually make them utterly useless in PvE) and in addition moved from being able to cast almost as continuously as a nuker to having a reset of almost 10 seconds on their nukes. That is a nerf.
Sleep takes roughly 2 seconds to cast.
We typically roll with a 7x BD, 7x WC, 7x Overlord, 7x SE and 7x bishop... then whatever else shows up...
Mobs die very quickly.... even 4x ones over level 70 and with less-than-ideal party makeups.
Lets say the puller brings 4-5 4x mobs and you are not going to aoe/pole.
By the time you sleep 1 or 2, the party has dropped two of the mobs.
Due to VR, even the BD is taking nearly zero damage and the bishop is bored.
Basically a Spellsinger in such a group is much better off just nuking because the pseudo-tank doesn't really need the mobs slept and your mana could be spent making things dead instead of trying to keep the more-than-capable pseudo-tank alive.
VR and the Bishop are more than capable of keeping even a BD alive and well pretty much infinitely on most XP grinds even with smallish parties. Bring a real tank with root and sleep is a complete waste of mana.
Better yet, the BD or SE can start rooting and it casts nearly instantly and holds even IF you decide to pull a pole out...
No recasting, no trouble with breaking, and all resources are focused on actually making the best out of what they have.
Sleep is not worth SP... its that simple.
Truth is, sleep was less powerful than root is now.
If you do not need sleep NOW you did not need sleep before. Where you NEEDED it before you still need it now.
All I can say is - if we pull enough mobs, I start sleeping. It is worth the MP and the time (if it keeps the group going through a catastrophic pull), which I can directly read out of my own MP bar as a healer. Yes, a SpS will be expected to nuke instead, as we usually have enough recharges to keep them goign on 2~3 a mob. Especially on mobs that do things like AoE stun/nuke/MP leech/etc though I appreciate a sleep. :p
We typically roll with a 7x BD, 7x WC, 7x Overlord, 7x SE and 7x bishop... then whatever else shows up...
Mobs die very quickly.... even 4x ones over level 70 and with less-than-ideal party makeups.
Lets say the puller brings 4-5 4x mobs and you are not going to aoe/pole.
By the time you sleep 1 or 2, the party has dropped two of the mobs.
Due to VR, even the BD is taking nearly zero damage and the bishop is bored.
Basically a Spellsinger in such a group is much better off just nuking because the pseudo-tank doesn't really need the mobs slept and your mana could be spent making things dead instead of trying to keep the more-than-capable pseudo-tank alive.
VR and the Bishop are more than capable of keeping even a BD alive and well pretty much infinitely on most XP grinds even with smallish parties. Bring a real tank with root and sleep is a complete waste of mana.
Better yet, the BD or SE can start rooting and it casts nearly instantly and holds even IF you decide to pull a pole out...
No recasting, no trouble with breaking, and all resources are focused on actually making the best out of what they have.
Sleep is not worth SP... its that simple.
Truth is, sleep was less powerful than root is now.
Why bring SE's at 7x into this? they're expertise is root.
And root is not going to do you much use against a ranged mob..
Btw do you know that archer groups dont need a tank?5x HP mobs are np for em.We actually dont need a healer either.Just the warlock casting party heal now and then....
Sleep and especially sleeping cloud are still great crowd control measures for nukers in PvE. Though change sequence changed.
Back in time you could charge a group of mobs and throw sleep/CS on the fly if you see more mobs than you want.
Now you have to use sleep/SC beforehand, and only then kill mobs.
Sleeping cloud made it possible for me to kill x1 hp group mobs on my sorcerer. I sleep them and then nuke like they are single mobs. Increased xp/drop on them quite compensates time and mana used for sleeping cloud. Other methods are using AOE skills that have high cooldown, can be interrupted etc. They led to few deathes for my sorcerer on those same mobs.
Regular sleep comes handy when you want to kill 3 social mobs staying close to each other. Sleep won't be that useful in case every cast will be finished. Unfortunately 3 mobs on you is generally enough to lose concentration at least once.
For healers sleep is considered as second measure. Generally it worth time and mana if mob will not be attacked by the time trance will fade off. For example, you have 8 mobs on your party and half of them is already under your transe. It might be better to cast slow sleep on 5th mob and forget about him for 30 seconds than use trance one again later.
Sleeping cloud is still great thing for mass pvp in tight corridors. Spam speed of it doesn't really change, you just cast more time than before.
Single sleep is no that useful in pvp, but still can be good starting skill if player being attacked doesn't know about you. Cast it from nearest bush, come close, use Gloom, Silence and Paralyze... It won't be that easy without sleep ^^
Sleep and especially sleeping cloud are still great crowd control measures for nukers in PvE. Though change sequence changed.
Back in time you could charge a group of mobs and throw sleep/CS on the fly if you see more mobs than you want.
Now you have to use sleep/SC beforehand, and only then kill mobs.
No, you root them... sleeping cloud is not used at all in PvE.
Sleeping cloud made it possible for me to kill x1 hp group mobs on my sorcerer. I sleep them and then nuke like they are single mobs. Increased xp/drop on them quite compensates time and mana used for sleeping cloud.
Ah but you were taking additional risk as the lowered hit rate on sleeping cloud and the recast timer made it so you were risking more than the average person as well.
(melee can ironman solo groups of 9 yellows with a small risk of death)
Other methods are using AOE skills that have high cooldown, can be interrupted etc. They led to few deathes for my sorcerer on those same mobs.
AoE mobs pose additional threat... even with the old sleeping cloud this existed...
Regular sleep comes handy when you want to kill 3 social mobs staying close to each other. Sleep won't be that useful in case every cast will be finished. Unfortunately 3 mobs on you is generally enough to lose concentration at least once.
No... sleep is a waste of mana.... two of those mobs are dead before they close to melee range.. the last one will hit you a few times and die. If the mobs exist beforehand, then 900 range will do everything you need. Its the mobs which spawn on top of you which require control.
For healers sleep is considered as second measure. Generally it worth time and mana if mob will not be attacked by the time trance will fade off. For example, you have 8 mobs on your party and half of them is already under your transe. It might be better to cast slow sleep on 5th mob and forget about him for 30 seconds than use trance one again later.
Trance is in every way superior to sleep.
Slept NOW, 15 seconds >>>>>>>> Getting beat on for 2 seconds then slept for 30...
If your group doesn't get to something in 15 seconds then you need a new group.
Sleeping cloud is still great thing for mass pvp in tight corridors. Spam speed of it doesn't really change, you just cast more time than before.
Right... have you ever tried to cast sleeping cloud in mass PvP? Let's just say that an archer can one-shot you from 900 range about 10 times before you can even START casting.
Archers on our server kill mages on sight as they are easy kills. Mages with sparkly blue around them are even more dead. (they won't fight back for 5 seconds!)
Everything that AoE sleep used to do, AoE root is FAR superior and doesn't take forever to cast, and is cast by toons which are not one-shots.
Single sleep is no that useful in pvp, but still can be good starting skill if player being attacked doesn't know about you. Cast it from nearest bush, come close, use Gloom, Silence and Paralyze... It won't be that easy without sleep ^^
If your opponent is dumb enough to not defend himself against sleep and stupid enough to let you get within 600 range AND spend 2 seconds casting it.... he deserves what he gets.
I promise you if you ever try that against a skilled opponent, they'll have you dead or helpless before you finish sleep.
I am not quoting the previous post, it is long, but Sleeping cloud is still used on PvE, quiet efficiently. The angel groups in MoS are an example, we aoe sleep them after the pull, then kill them 1 at a time. Very rarely does a resist cause problems.
I have never sen it used in pvp, the previous poster was right, you will never get a chance to cast it against a decent pvp group. The tank can switch their targets, but they will retarget and kill you before the hate recharges.
In the last example it would work, he is sneaking up on someone basically, the person doesnt see him coming. If that is the case he can get sleep off rather easily.
bottom line is that sleep and sleep cloud are still useful in pve and in situational pvp.
Does sleep have a use if you manufacture a use for it?
Perhaps...
The problem is that sleep casts so slow that pretty much every other means of control is superior.
There is also the problem that the nuker classes actually have superior tactics available to them in almost every situation.
Where sleeping cloud and sleep really shone was the ability to quickly control something which got out of hand.
With such a horrid cast time, sleep cannot be used as reactionary anymore... and that was its only real use anyway.
If they were to nerf all other forms of CC in the same way, then sleep would indeed be balanced in comparison.
The truth is that sleep did not need such a massive nerf.
All they needed to do is increase the re-use timer and slow down the spell to some degree.
Indeed they should do the same to ALL control methods.
Why spend 2 seconds casting sleep when someone can insta-cast root/silence/paralyze?
Frankly STUN is superior to sleep right now.
What should be done:
-Sleep now casts with a base time of 5 seconds (half current)
-Sleep has a 5 second recast
-Sleeping cloud casts with a base time of 7 seconds
-Sleeping cloud has an 8 second recast
What changes?
No one can cast sleep more often than they can now
All sleep casters can land sleep faster, but cannot spam any faster than now due to the recast.
Sleep returns as reactionary, but slower than it used to be.
Realistically all this does is change the spell to be less backloaded than it is now.
ALL control spells except stun get the same treatment.
ALL control spells have a chance to break on damage.
(some control spells break easier than others)
quite simply there are ppl who use sleep, know how to use sleep, and enjoy using sleep. (like me :D)
equally there are those who don't use sleep, don't know how to use it, and dislike the whole concept of sleep. (Thalenduros :p)
quite simply there are ppl who are too inexperienced to know not to use sleep, don't know how to use their character properly, and enjoy using sleep. (like me :D)
equally there are those who know enough not to use sleep, know how to use other actions better, and dislike the whole concept of nerfed sleep. (Thalenduros :p)
Now thats ot right. Using sleep is a play style, it doesnt mean that they dont know how to play their class. I know people who use sleep and sleep cloud, They are great at playing their class. Just because it got"nerfed" doesnt make it a useless skill.
You were one of the Sleep, Nuke, Sleep Nuke people before the nerf, werent you Thal? Thats what it sounds like. I cant do that anymore they broke me...The same people I know that use sleep now(and before) never have had to sleep nuke, sleep, nuke anything or anyone to be successful at pvp or in pve.
quite simply there are ppl who are too inexperienced to know not to use sleep, don't know how to use their character properly, and enjoy using sleep. (like me :D)
equally there are those who know enough not to use sleep, know how to use other actions better, and dislike the whole concept of nerfed sleep. (Thalenduros :p)
Using sleep is a play style, it doesnt mean that they dont know how to play their class. I know people who use sleep and sleep cloud, They are great at playing their class. Just because it got"nerfed" doesnt make it a useless skill.
Because it got nerfed? No... it could have been nerfed and still be left useful for PvE. Cancel was nerfed also and is still useful. Straight-up using sleep instead of doing something more optimal at any one time proves you are not very good.
A skilled mage will NEVER use sleep as there is always a better solution.
You were one of the Sleep, Nuke, Sleep Nuke people before the nerf, werent you Thal?
PvE? Nope... I used sleep and sleeping cloud in parties mostly.
PvP? Not usually... most targets were immune. I have been playing spellsinger since prelude... all of the people I would PvP with were better than that. Worked on some easy targets who couldn't figure out how to use an SA though.
Thats what it sounds like. I cant do that anymore they broke me...
Hmm perhaps you should try this thing called READING...
I suggested a solution which would STILL stop sleep spam and which would allow a mage to use sleep and sleeping cloud in a reactionary method.
You sound like someone who needs to do more reading and less poking into something he doesn't have the slightest clue about.
The same people I know that use sleep now(and before) never have had to sleep nuke, sleep, nuke anything or anyone to be successful at pvp or in pve.
Note that I do not favor the return of sleep spam... and note also that cancel's guarantee of removing Mental aegis is gone. I want sleep useable. In its current implementation, its not worth SP.
Root, stun, and every single other kind of control are superior oin every way that counts.
Why is sleep so problematic for people?
Paralyze hits and you lost.... it hits often and doesn't take so long to cast.
Silence hits and you are worse than dead...
Sleep never was a game-winner unless you were a complete idiot. Cancel was always the problem... and it is no longer so.
Note they could lower sleep's hit rate by 50% and make it cast half as slowly and it woudl still be infinitely better than it is now.
Nevermind... you wouldn't understand balance or a fair fight if it hit you in the head.
You realise of course that A) a mage isn't the only class with sleep (and I can say for a fact that when I sleep, I do so because it will save me MP - that's the ultimate goal for a healer in a tight spot I suppose, since letting someone die is out of the question anyhow).
I'm not sure how long it's been since you've been out of your type of party - and who knows, maybe the solutions you propose really DO make sleep useless in YOUR setups.
But the fact is, there are groups in which sleep at least, and sleep cloud mostly likely, remains useful.
PS - if you want to see nerfed CC, have a look at WoF and SoE.
Skill is still the best solution if you are present and some situations occur (for example a target that needs running out to is better slept than tranced simply so I can return to the party and STAY with it for the full 30 seconds that sleep lasts).
Root won't get you far with archer mobs, and AoE silence can not be assumed to always be available - OLs are considerably rarer than SpSs and Sorcs (as a collective, I'm sure there aren't that many more sorcs than OLs if at all) after all.
Of course SoE is the ultimate CC tool, but once again, that only works if it A) lands and your party B) stops fighting.
I have to say that for the most part I agree with Thalenduros. The biggest problem with sleep came from PvP and not PvE. By nerfing it the way they did, they made it so that as a reactionary spell to control a bad pull and save the healer some MP it is simply not useful. I've actually tried using it in some of those situations and half the time while I'm casting on one mob, the party I'm with has actually started killing that one (out of 5-6 possible mobs) and my cast is useless. I usually just end up letting the healer heal and kill as fast as I can.
If they wanted to make it so that you couldn't spam it in PvP they should have boosted the resists to it (either through buffs or armor sets, right now those sets don't make enough of a difference to be worth it) and upped the recast time.
The only thing that made it overpowered in PvE was the recast time on it. I remember being able to join a group in the Lair and do cowd control in the big Pytan room on my SH without having sleep cloud and being able to chain cast the spell so fast that my party wouldn't even notice the difference. If the recast time were increased that sort of thing would be eliminated.
I was never one of those sleep-nuke type of mages in PvP. (ok, sleep-slow-surrender-nuke). Someone earlier in the thread mentions mages doing a chain of sleep-poison and just chaining that. All I can say to that person is they obviously haven't PvPed in serveral chronicles because they made it so poison would break sleep a looooong time ago. As things stand, in the olympiad (the only real 1v1 PvP), I honestly can't land sleep on anyone. If it lands I might as well go and buy a lottery ticket.
The biggest problem with sleep came from PvP and not PvE.
But the thing is I ask you again - compare it to its PvE equivalents:
Seal of Binding (both have advantages and disadvantages now, SC was clearly superior pre-nerf)
Serenade of Eva (SC is still clearly superior)
Word of Fear (SC better once more)
Thunderstorm (SC wins except in AoE pulls).
The problem was in PvE, where SC was the one and only CC worth mentioning pre-nerf, which made stupid pulls not only possible but safe, and where spammable sleep was a 'safe button out' for almost any situation.
Especially since sleep cloud also got a notable hand up (lower overall resistances to sleep and root across the board) in C5 - this certainly does not compensate the nerf, but it did make it neccessary.
The game does not start at level 78, which is what some people like to forget. The main part of it is grinding, and in that grind, SC made tanks and healers obsolete.
They both had to solo rather inefficiently, just as spellsingers and sorcerers have to now (unless they have the sense to get into a pole party ... isn't it convenient how the mana inefficient mages are good at mana efficient forms of attack?).