I recently met a new player. This player has been playing for 2 months. She managed to get her cleric to lvl 32. I met her lvling in Gludin area solo, because she could not get a group. I started an alt for the sole reason to help her lvl, she liked the game and didn't want to quit. I quickly lvl'd my alt to join her and help her lvl. We started off at about lvl 23, but because of a major RL time difference, I could not always be on to help.
Though she had recieved and accepted offers to join a clan, no one in clan would help her, so she would just drop out. Pickup groups, nonexistent. Outside of myself helping her, she told me she could not get a group, or rarely. One of the major reasons she could not get a group was because of dualboxers and because of "Buffs for Recs" in towns and in hunting spots. She asked how can she get a group when she can't even compete with buffers in town or randomly running around giving high lvl buffs. I told her the truth and told her there is no reason to play a healer/buffer as your main live in this game, it's simply too late now, she should start a melee/DD class. She said she only likes to play the support classes.
During one lvling session, she decided to quit, gave me back the gear I had given her and thanked me for helping her out. I haven't seen her in a week.
So, her plea is to stop giving high lvl buffs for recs, so that other same low lvl support classes CAN get a group. I myself agree and have mentioned this many times in the various towns I've been in, but laughed at, as I'm sure some will do at this thread. I had to tell her the truth of it all, and she didn't understand, neither do I. But oh well , there it is, another live would-be support class gone, GG all.
She just needs a few good friends that's all. You were one such friend. If she put effort into finding another 10 she wouldn't have any problem in the game.
Besides, isn't it a girl? All she has to do is put 1 and 1 together and she'll have lv80 Heroes buying her all the gear she needs till A grade lmao.
She just needs a few good friends that's all. You were one such friend. If she put effort into finding another 10 she wouldn't have any problem in the game.
Besides, isn't it a girl? All she has to do is put 1 and 1 together and she'll have lv80 Heroes buying her all the gear she needs till A grade lmao.
I totally understand this story, I've been through that.
I almost only soloed to lvl 35. After that I made a few Raid Bosses, which can fulfill the xp bar very quickly at these levels. Also I generally was soloing at Execution Grounds, shouting in order to catch a group in Heretics. It doesn't work all the time.
There were no academy, so my clan/ally wasn't much help.
After 40 I've been able to find clan parties on daily basis, until the clan changed, so a bit before 50 I started to find myself alone. From time to time I find a melee over my level who accept to invite me because that's what friends are made for, but my clan doesn't care anymore if I've a party or not when they're in full party. I must spam several allies, friendlist and shout and still I'm not sure to get a party everyday.
So... in my opinion, it's not because of buffers in town. It's a general attitude or the gameplay. But yes, buffs should be only available in group. There are too many soloers who ask for buffs in catas.
****-just get in a higher lvl clan with Academy.We sure as hell cant find any for it >.<
And we could use another buffie girl for our clan (already got 3 of em ^_^).
Interesting story.
We, as a clan, are having a real difficult time finding the buffers and healers and tanks that want to stay for a long time. Before you say it is us, we have core people from well over a year and half with us and some very nice people have joined us in the last 6 months and stayed.
I think that two boxing is killing out these other players. Not NcSoft's fault totally, but they have contributed to it for sure. I think they need to give something to the sub 52 level people of support classes to help them on their journey, maybe a few buffs or something that really mean something. With all the alliances looking for academy members, there has to be someone that fits in somewhere for everyone..
Well our SK is 68 curently...was in group with a shilien templar yesterday.Our bish is nice (73) but the sws (78) that subbed an EE (68) just owns.Ofcourse her gender has no impact on that :p
You see when you get in high lvl clan ppl usually got a sub.And when half the ppl sub support...
Our support classes are getting a group....when a group is made that is.Pagan needs a healer.IT also.
Most of the time we got DC/EE/BD/Bish and we got no DDs :confused:Maaaan when that happens it really blows...
I totally understand this story, I've been through that.
I almost only soloed to lvl 35. After that I made a few Raid Bosses, which can fulfill the xp bar very quickly at these levels. Also I generally was soloing at Execution Grounds, shouting in order to catch a group in Heretics. It doesn't work all the time.
There were no academy, so my clan/ally wasn't much help.
After 40 I've been able to find clan parties on daily basis, until the clan changed, so a bit before 50 I started to find myself alone. From time to time I find a melee over my level who accept to invite me because that's what friends are made for, but my clan doesn't care anymore if I've a party or not when they're in full party. I must spam several allies, friendlist and shout and still I'm not sure to get a party everyday.
So... in my opinion, it's not because of buffers in town. It's a general attitude or the gameplay. But yes, buffs should be only available in group. There are too many soloers who ask for buffs in catas.
Refer to my sig, I had no issues making my own groups as a buffer and o not only that but i am a pvper so my spots for hunting are far mor elimited.
People pm me on a constnat basis for groups... but that may be because of CoV lol
Yeah, most big clans help out academy toons. But let's face it, no under 40 can seriously be called a buffer (maybe SE). Their buffs just don't give enough of an edge. They are healers mostly (or DD's for orc shamans). And the problem is, if you have herbs and decent gear, you do not need a healer. We had 2 players rejoin the game with new toons. We were giving them prophet buffs, but they told us it was pointless. They had no problem mowing through pinks and reds with just the herbs.
For the last week, my clan has had ZERO healer or buffer mains log in (our OLs logged in last night). And guess what. We've been xping faster than ever, we've done several successful raids, we defended a castle.
The only way to make healers and buffers useful as mains is to give them something to actively do in the party. Crowd control is good, but many classes have crowd control (anchor, arrest, hate, etc.). Debuffs are good, except they're only defensive ones, and noone needs that. At any rate, the debuffs are not worth the cost of their mp, a heal has a better effect.
And in PvP.....lol. Not much space for a healer with 1-shot drac bows. At least buffers are useful.
Give healers and buffers something to do actively.
She just needs a few good friends that's all. You were one such friend. If she put effort into finding another 10 she wouldn't have any problem in the game.
Besides, isn't it a girl? All she has to do is put 1 and 1 together and she'll have lv80 Heroes buying her all the gear she needs till A grade lmao.
i need A bow anyone wanna donate? :eek:
and to the story
its the boxing that is killing the live buffers
best way is to find good friends and clan, in a good clan there are DDs fighting for buffers to get tham into group or buffers fighting for DDs :p
no no no.. Boxxing is not killing, nor has it ever killed live support classes. Boxxing was the response to not having enough buffers.
If a clan isn't interested in helping their live support get xp and level up so that they get the uber buffs, then they are a bunch of [censored], find another clan. Case closed.
main probleem is people are not alwas online and this game bepands to much on Buffers witch brings people to force to (box buffers) if buff's was not so super inportend many people will play as real buffer and people will not so box them so fast
Most of the time we got DC/EE/BD/Bish and we got no DDs :confused:Maaaan when that happens it really blows...
That's what happen because all the healers/buffers that could be spread among parties find themselves together in groups and clans that nicely accept them. Recently my clan accepted without hesitation a new SE (about my level) without even thinking if she'll get a party or not. It's nice but yesterday after 45mins I found a (high level) party but when she arrived every parties were full or already had enough support classes. At the end of the night our party had two bishops (one far higher than me), a WC, a BD... just because we are nice. From when BD are supposed to be DD? So "choose a better clan/ally" doesn't make sense. It's not normal.
Groups shouldn't be less efficient when they have a support!
Many groups tend to build, drop and add people as the play sesson progresses so we often find ourselves with different mixes of players in my clan. Sometimes we approach the traditional party optimum of tank, dd, buffers, healers, etc. At other times we find we have all buffers and healers, or no tank, or some other odd mix.
That, I think, is when it is more fun. We have to figure out how to succeed in a non-traditional way. In other words, we have to think! As a result, sometimes we have found unusually effective combos of small (or large, or duo) parties, combinations of classes which really work well when they use their lesser used skills together.
For example, put some Howlers and Necros together with a Bishop or two and you can see amazing damage output without any downtime for hours. Or get two or three bishops together with a wheelbarrow of soul ore in the right spot and it would be difficult to find any other group that size killing as fast.
So my point? Mix and match, be innovative, get your mind outside that box and you may find all kinds of possibilites that most never consider. Plus, you will have unexpected fun!
IMO the single #1 most important aspect of being the group leader is picking a good spot for that particular group. RumPunch is on the money.
I would also like to add that in most mature clans that a person below lvl 50ish is going to have some difficulty getting a group.
The reason is that it's tough to recruit new first time players around those levels (there just aren't many around.) If people are rerolling, bringing up a new box, or leveling a sub, they are not going to be below lvl 52 for very long. All of that combined means that a bran new player below lvl 52 will have trouble getting a group, because there just isn't anyone to group with.
Support classes do have it a bit easier though, because a group of say mid -60's will be quicker to invite a lower lvl support than the would a lower lvl DD.
no no no.. Boxxing is not killing, nor has it ever killed live support classes. Boxxing was the response to not having enough buffers.
That's the eternal answer of dualboxers
Pick one:
Level a lvl 20 toon with 52+ pp buffs
Level a lvl 20 toon with 20 cleric buffs (spend a fortune on gsap)
The problem on my server is a lack of low level healers. In HC the constant shout is: DD lf healer for duo.
On the up side, I'll take my prophet, but I will always party a healer that needs a party. Face it, there are so few 52+ prophets that want to party with a level 20 anything.. And the only way to get the good buffs is to 2box.
Sooo haste 2 should be a lvl 20 buff?And till 20 you HAVE haste 2 for free and its 1 hour.I make 20->30 in a few hours solo....
But oh well-lets party up a 78 BD with lvl 19 mystic because he cant lvl 1->40 in a day...
no no no.. Boxxing is not killing, nor has it ever killed live support classes. Boxxing was the response to not having enough buffers.
That's the eternal answer of dualboxers
Pick one:
Level a lvl 20 toon with 52+ pp buffs
Level a lvl 20 toon with 20 cleric buffs (spend a fortune on gsap)
The first one is impossible because a 52+ pp wouldn't get xp with a level 20. Wait... it exists? Oh yes it must be somewhat logical.
The problem on my server is a lack of low level healers. In HC the constant shout is: DD lf healer for duo.
Last time I went in Heretics to level my hatchling, it was the total opposite. 2 clerics and a EO without party. That's Teon, but at least DD can do something while waiting for a party.
On the up side, I'll take my prophet, but I will always party a healer that needs a party. Face it, there are so few 52+ prophets that want to party with a level 20 anything.. And the only way to get the good buffs is to 2box.
Clerics have good buff for a D grade party. They also heal. There's no need of 2box. But of course if you get 60+ buffs from PP + SE, sure that's better than lvl 20 buffs, but that hardly makes sense if you want to play the game and not optimize xp without care of others.
Sorry but my lvl 28 Scavenger doesn't need 52+ buffs to solo.
If you see this player again, ship her my way. You know my philosophy about hunts and all. I will be MORE than happy to group with her. And I know people who will group with her, even if her buffs are the pits (no offense)
We often take a lower buffer into the group and leave a higher level one out of it so the lower one can level... boring, and to me problematic, but it works.
You CAN level with low lvl bufs, especially when you're low level yourself.
It's not an issue not to level very fast.
How did people lvl in beta, prelude etc..? It was slower, but they still leveled, and without shots, and without top gears.
I have OOP SE that I drag along wherever I go. I rarely set up parties outside of my clan, but we also have 2 live main healers, and one that is someones alt. One is 52+ SE, and whenever she is on, I use my SE to buff and then let the live healer heal and recharge. Most clan hunts that are thrown together tend to tap my SE of Mana, so we kinda need a healer. This is great for me, cause I don't have to switch clients as much. And the live healers have more mana to do with what they want.
I will always invite an extra buffer or healer even if it is not needed. We are pretty much a casual clan that enjoys getting together and taking on bigger areas or just helping each other with stuff. It generally doesn't matter if the XP isn't the best, being a part of the family is enough for me.
I leveled my scavy, TK, cleric with either no buffs, or self buffs only. Shots were for emergencies, never carried more than 500 at a time. Heck I remember on the scavy having no buffs at all, no shots, and only hit top D around 25.
It can be done, but does anyone? Doubt it, not with those noobie buffers in place any more.
I leveled my scavy, TK, cleric with either no buffs, or self buffs only. Shots were for emergencies, never carried more than 500 at a time. Heck I remember on the scavy having no buffs at all, no shots, and only hit top D around 25.
It can be done, but does anyone? Doubt it, not with those noobie buffers in place any more.
And you soloed all the way?
If not, was it a bad experience? (social-wise)
I personally always have a oop buffer now when im trying to level an academy toon. But I will always invite to party any healer thats shouting lfg even if I dont really need em. I know how hard it is to level em, especially if you dont have the gear to nuker your way to 40. On the bright side, they cn do the healing and I dont have to switch windows each time I need a heal.
Pick one:
Level a lvl 20 toon with 52+ pp buffs
Level a lvl 20 toon with 20 cleric buffs (spend a fortune on gsap)
Picking: play a lvl 20 toon with a 20 live noob cleric in party, no gsap. It's fun, "buffs" aren't.
The problem on my server is a lack of low level healers. In HC the constant shout is: DD lf healer for duo.
There is no problem to find a 30+ healer on Hinde, at least in the European prime time. They are all alts or rerolls, though; starting a healer class for a fresh L2 player is not a nice experience these days.
No not all the way, most of them aren't that high level. The TK is 40, she solo'd (for real) until 29, was put on the shelf for 3 chronicles and then I did raids to close to 40, then I made my SE late C3 and used that.
The BH I solo'd (buffless) to around 35 then I had a SE friend help me farther along, then after that I had my own SE.
And no it really wasn't bad, back then power exp wasn't that big of a deal, I didn't mind sitting or getting exp slowly. It's not the same now though.
i soloed my WS to 58
never used shots unless i was in party (so basically never used em)
i started spamming shots at 57 and havent turned em off since but that was also the point i made my duel box
X_X i woulda helped! too bad i wasnt in the area at the time, and or if this was on KAIN server. i love to help ive got 2 low levels to help ppl with when im on em, and im always partying with random people and making friends. i think the problem is everyone is too into themselves to just sit down and have random fun with random people. my clan recruited me and took me to a catacomb (in which id never been) and helped me level very quickly, and ever since then ive been partying with 1 in particular and his friend,s and finding new people as well. if the person comes back hopefully they will find a group soon. but thats all i can really say
Yep... I'm in Goddard shouting "Bishop 59 LF Party". I hear "DA 60 LFP". Great! let's contact him!
After helloes... (http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/9837/nohealerjn2.gif)
That's what's a "party" for people. C'mon healers, find a hobby, go fishing I don't know!
VR4=no heals needed.My clan has a CH but its sooooo lame having to go every 20 minutes for rebuffs...
And yeah with DA and Bish in party who the heck will kill the mobs?
VR4=no heals needed.My clan has a CH but its sooooo lame having to go every 20 minutes for rebuffs...
And yeah with DA and Bish in party who the heck will kill the mobs?
We were about to wait for xp to fall in our mouth.
Read my post. I said party, not duo. I know how to use /invite command thank you. On the contrary DA + DD... who's gonna heal DA? And there the problem is that there are people who rely only on CH. Yeah better xp for them, 0 for support class.
The DA, and if it's undead the bishop can nuke too. No reason the bishop can't wack at things too. It's not complicated.
I use to do cruma 2 and the aden cemetary on my bishop with a paladin. Then again this was way before everyone felt support classes were huge wastes of exp leeching space.
Actually it was a joke for the DA.The DA can dish out a moderate amount of dmg.
As a BD i can run forever with a healer.I was looking for a healer to do the field of masacre (higher area-no herbs) and after 2 hours didnt find even 1 ~60 healer/buffer.Oh well i just started hunting in FP.
Interesting story.
I think they need to give something to the sub 52 level people of support classes to help them on their journey, maybe a few buffs or something that really mean something.
two solutions to this problem. if anyone sees an option C please feel free.
A. give buffers self-buffs that stack with normal buffs (like greater shield and greater might) that will allow them to solo better, and contribute something to the party in-between buffing. when was the last time you saw an OOP wc? they do a considerable amount of damage and their buffs are party-only, so its just as well to leave them in party.
B. one account per credit card.
I find at high levels, with everyone in wars, no one wants to bother with less than optimal exp groups when you can get ganked by wartags for 1% or even .5 deaths. Especially when it takes a good hour to get that .5 or 1%.
Yes but most won't. Most at 76+ won't take less than a brez unless it's at a raid where people can't afford to have brez casting interupted (antharas, frintessa)
I say all buffers should simply benefit extra when they buff themselves - a sort of passive for EEs that amplifies the effect of defensive buffs, and for prophets and SEs that works with offensive buffs (i.e. a sort of 'buff mastery').
when NC says credit card a debit card will work. do you not have a bank account of your own?
I'm the one with the credit card, and my boyfriend has an ordinary debit card - I don't think NC accepts Danish debit cards (didn't know they could be used at all, so maybe I'm wrong about this).
And then there's the issue with whole families playing, and being able to have shops up while playing on another account. -And having several accounts full of alts.
well just make it so u cant buff out of party just like Warcryers do, no more random buffing and stealing away the oppportunity of a low level buffer to level up.
And the problem isnt only for buffers, its also for DD's
inexistant groups cuz people alreayd have their well defined
group of friends, and trying to break into one is hard
it happens but rarely
generally that dependshow open minded and social people are
and i havent seen manny open minded people yet ingame
more like paranoid crowd althogheter
scared that the one they take in group wotn be nice
or is an alt of an ennemy clan, or will pk them
and such foolish things
losen up people
a stranger is just a friend u never met
and if he turns up evil, just gank him with ur mains
Two thoughts:
1) Give buffer/healers some real offensive skills that they can use without consuming all their mana when supporting a party. (Ever try to solo with an SE?) More people will start to play them as their mains. Also, make it so people who play healers/buffers as their main won't feel a need to maintain 2 sets of gear.
2) Even if item 1 is implemented, this problem isn't going to go away overnight, and it isn't going to completely go away. This is just because there is by now such a large body of boxed buffer/healers already. Some people, like myself, will support live buffers and players, but when we solo, we have become accustomed to the play-style of boxing. Furthermore, if 25% of the population suddenly went out and started new buffers/healers as their mains, it would take a while to get them up to high levels. This does not mean that NC should not start work on this. It would get better over time, and it would be a godsend to people who already play buffers/healers as their mains.
Fially, a nuke should not be the only really good tool of a mystic in a game. Non-nukers should be able to do more than buff and heal, just because it can be fun for some people to play that way.
We don't need offensive skills. We need either a stronger mastery modifier, or a passive that allows us to get more out of our buffs. Nobody wants offensive skills (that is for the fighter classes), just being able to say, do about as much damage as an elf would be nice.
Maintaining two sets of gears is expected of most classes and I don't see why healers/buffers should be the exception.
when NC says credit card a debit card will work. do you not have a bank account of your own?
I'm the one with the credit card, and my boyfriend has an ordinary debit card - I don't think NC accepts Danish debit cards (didn't know they could be used at all, so maybe I'm wrong about this).
Well, OK, maybe not skills. I'm just trying to say, if a healer/buffer could take a more active role than what they do now, more people might be interested in playing one as their main. (I once heard a clan leader who had a high-level SE as her main say "What are you going to do, root them to death?", as she was complaining about how boring it was to play the SE.)
People commonly maintaining 2 sets of gear is new to me, but then again, I've been playing less that a year. I now maintain 2 weapons for my Destroyer and eventually, I plan to maintain 2 or 3 weapons in A grade. I might eventually maintain a 2nd A grade weapon for my WC (or maybe not, a dagger seems to work quite well). Otherwise, I use one set of armor/robe for my Destroyer, WC, SH, and SE, and plan to only ever use one weapon at a time for my SH and SE. I dunno, do people who play, for instance nukers and archers, typically maintain 2 sets of gear at each grade for each toon? Or do people who play tanks maintain a set of light armor and a set of heavy armor?
I could be all wrong on this gear business. But it seems to me like a healer or buffer would want at least light armor for soloing, and robes for grouping, as it stands now. Although one good sword or set of duals would presumably suffice for weapon(s). Please let me know what I'm missing.
(I once heard a clan leader who had a high-level SE as her main say "What are you going to do, root them to death?", as she was complaining about how boring it was to play the SE.)
I had a variation on this theme.
I'll heal you till you die from it!
I figure eventually those numbers will start cycling into the negatives...
the difference in a passive increase that you suggested and the stacking self-buffs that i suggested is twofold. stacking buffs consume more mp than a passive increase, and stacking buffs take more slots than a passive increase would. my suggestion means that SE/EE/PP/bishop will be able to solo slightly better without their full-buffed, in-party damage going through the roof, as when they are in a party they wont be able to use the self-buffs due to the waste of mp and the lack of available buffslots. if they are the only buffer and healer in the party, sure they can choose to use them, but the choice should mean giving up something else, namely a chunck of mp.
Hmmm. Well, if I understand tight, you're both talking about adjustments that would better enable buffers/healers to melee. Fine and well. But. I suspect some of the people who would be most drawn to playing some mystic non-nuker would like more of a caster-oriented way to be more active in the game. I don't know this for a fact, I just suspect this might be the case for some players. So, maybe some kinds of improvements along those lines would increase the appeal to of playing buffer/healers as mains. More debuffs, more effective debuffs, restore sleep skills, more or stronger DOTS and AOE's, these are possible ideas that might appeal to some players who are drawn to playing mystics but find healers/buffers in L2 too boring. Comments anyone?
Hmmm. Well, if I understand tight, you're both talking about adjustments that would better enable buffers/healers to melee. Fine and well. But. I suspect some of the people who would be most drawn to playing some mystic non-nuker would like more of a caster-oriented way to be more active in the game. I don't know this for a fact, I just suspect this might be the case for some players. So, maybe some kinds of improvements along those lines would increase the appeal to of playing buffer/healers as mains. More debuffs, more effective debuffs, restore sleep skills, more or stronger DOTS and AOE's, these are possible ideas that might appeal to some players who are drawn to playing mystics but find healers/buffers in L2 too boring. Comments anyone?
Like the AOE undead nuke EE had once, a long time ago back in closed beta.
she joined a bad clan. any good clan should help their members (academy) to lvl40 as fast as possible.
I se no problem with buff-bots. I have 3 myself. it has never ruined any group for anyone. I bring the buffers we cant find, if we find a live one, i just replace my boxed buffer.
sure, some people, or maybe a lot of them, im not sure, will prolly leave their buffer in group and turn down any other buffers lfg. the problem is selfish players, not the twoboxing itself.
- remove (or at least nerf badly) all the consumable bufs (CH, pots, scrolls) : for example CH could give bufs lvl1. lvl1 bufs are already better than nothing. Why trying to REPLACE buffers?
- remove (or at least nerf badly) all the consumable bufs (CH, pots, scrolls) : for example CH could give bufs lvl1. lvl1 bufs are already better than nothing. Why trying to REPLACE buffers?
<ul type="square"> Give people (DDs, healers, whoever) more useful things to do in the town. Give buffers more active role ingame (reduce MP consumption of Windshackle and add anti-crit debuff properties to it, for example).
Just trying to fight symptoms (by forcing ppl to party) won't help.
A place with 'jumpy bars' might also be nice, but that's very un-L2ish.
Just more to do might help though - the problem is that as long as healers don't add to the offense of a group, they WILL be outsourced. Annoying but true.
The problem with "rewarding places" is that it could be just too bothersome to form a good party to get into one of these. And as long as there is nothing much to do as a healer while the group is being formed...
The problem with "rewarding party setups" is that they don't help against buffpets, even if they could help live healers.
And without some active debuffs for buffers... it's just too boring to play PP or SE, especially when you could play WC instead.