I wouldn't mind BSOEs being removed if the client was stable and crashes/disconnects were much more rare. As it is, BSOE is about all I can do when I'm logging into game after a disconnect in an area with aggros, possibly low health because of the beating I took between when my client dropped and my char dropped from game. Of course when I login on my main, I login summonless, which basically means I'm screwed if I'm aggrod before I can get a summon out. Not to mention the game is poorly coded in that your character appears ingame before your client finishes loading. That's an issue that they really need to fix, both when logging in or when porting. Your character should appear ingame only when the client informs the server you're fully loaded and out of blackscreen.
I do understand the PvP implications of BSOE. I certainly would not object to BSOE not being instant (acting like a normal SOE) when flagged or red, for example, or even flagged/red/within 900 range of a wartag.
/Agreed need them! To many situations where you need them and removing them would really only help the people who dont want their target to escape... Also who cares so they escape from you at the cost of 500k for bsoe or 350k chbsoe.. I would rather hurt my enemies wallet than waist 5 mins of their time getting their lost 1% xp :o
I'd just like to see it cast a bit slower, 2-3 sec is enough. If you can't see 2-3 seconds in the future that the 50 mobs big train is gonna kill you, you deserve to die!
should disable all soes then when flagged or red and no use of return skills from prophets wc's or ee's when red or flagged while we are at it >.>
The best solution for BSOE is to allow it for white players only. No flagged or red should be able to use it.
/signed on that one.
If you have a party member with the PR skill, that should be allowed, you are giving a party slot to a support toon who has earned that skill.
Regular SOEs should remain usable by anyone. The timer is sufficient to allow hostile actions to be repaid.
This issue has already been spoken about a zillion times and we never come to a concensus.
Although I hate the idea to hit an run in an instantanious way, it has already been mentioned that there are way to much factors where bsoe has proven to be useful (and I don't mean pvp).
If there were a poll I'd say: no let them be as they are.
And sly is right, if we change one option we need to address all options...I think you'd have a lot of angry EE's if we did that...I know the ones in my Alliance would LOL
The only thing that should be changed imo is maybe being able to BSOE with the Zariche, and that's only because it would be a helluva lot more fun to see the chaos.
Quote:
The best solution for BSOE is to allow it for white players only. No flagged or red should be able to use it.
/signed on that one.
Also /signed. That's one BSoE use I despise. Also, make it not working on siege field, white or not.
URGH....BSOE on the siege field Oo...How lame
/signed on that end
i once laughed at that too
problem is when .5% xp loss equals more than 4 hours worth of xp time and a few million adena and a charm of courage costs more than a bsoe it actually starts making sense
heh
I don't know where our philosophies started taking diametrically opposed pathways, but man. I don't know if there is much of anything we agree on these days.
I still think very highly of you, for what it's worth.
In any case... the bullies are the ones picking fights against enemies they know (or think they know) they can beat... and in true bully fashion, make a hasty split when the tables turn. That's why I oppose BSOE against flagged and chaotic toons. They were eager enough to fight to get into that state.... they shouldn't be able to splisky when they are in combat mode.
Apparently you have never had some person that you have watched lick a wall for 4 months roll up on your xp party deep in a dungeon with his full S grade, complete with Drac Bow, somehow he manages to appear just as your AOE pull comes into the station.. and then you just type lol and hit the BSOE button.
The people that I know who complain most about getting rid of BSOE's are the bullies who are angry that their prey which is typically at least a gear grade below them, simply hit the button and get out before the guy can get his +1PvP.
Speaking for myself.. when someone BSOE's from me, I chalk it up as a victory, laugh, and go about my business. I don't need to see a +1PvP to feel like a man. Having the other person run is perfectly acceptable to me.
Ok, BigHands, but in your scenario, you are not flagged. BSOE is not (within this suggestion thread) denied to you in the case you described.
I'ts not a vote for me to say get rid of BSOE altogether... just for people who elected to flag (or are red - which has a reasonable set of disadvantages).
Ok, BigHands, but in your scenario, you are not flagged. BSOE is not (within this suggestion thread) denied to you in the case you described.
I'ts not a vote for me to say get rid of BSOE altogether... just for people who elected to flag (or are red - which has a reasonable set of disadvantages).
Really?
So if I'm polearming 2 rooms full of cata mobs, and a guy runs up to me and hits me.. what happens?
There are alot of sneaky ways to get people to flag when they don't actually want to PvP.
How about this one - last night, I ported into Ketra.. I'm a 76 dwarf. An archer in full drac with a drac bow ports in behind me. We start fighting.. one of my group mates, a 67 Sorc ports in behind me, he joins in the fray. Now a 67 Sorc and a 76 BH (in A grade) vs a 76+ Archer is a pretty fair fight in my mind. We chase the guy, and through teamwork almost take him down, but he leads us back to the port spot, where a 78 Hero SPS clannie of his has just ported in to save him.
Going strictly by your own internal code, should the Sorc and I be permitted to BSOE? We were both flagged, and had accepted PvP with the archer, but not with the archer and the SPS Hero. By the same standard, should he have been permitted to BSOE when he saw my sorc friend port in behind me?
Changing the rule to the way you want it would just be stupid. The only real impact it would have is to bring forcelogging back into fashion. Well that and it would ruin your standard PvP, because instead of even trying to fight, alot of people would simply BSOE.
I can see it now.. every PvP party is going to have to send a tank out on point to try and get the enemies to flag before the rest of the party gets spotted and the enemies BSOE.
**EDIT**
In addition to all of that, most times, a person can run and chug CP/Heal pots for the few seconds it takes to turn white again so that they could BSOE.
Learn to accept the fact that a BSOE is a win. It does not take a +1 to your PvP score for a fight to have been a victory.
i once laughed at that too
problem is when .5% xp loss equals more than 4 hours worth of xp time and a few million adena and a charm of courage costs more than a bsoe it actually starts making sense
Of course it makes sense - now. But since there already is a charm of courage to take care of the XP loss on the siege field, I don't see a reason of a BSoE needing to work there.
Who cares if it works on the siege field or not? What's the difference? You don't get PvP points on the siege field, and the other guy doesn't lose XP (assuming he's also using a charm) so what's the **** difference?
The only difference is that you don't get to see the guy laying there dead. But so what? If he BSOE'd you get to laugh at him for making an *** out of himself.
Apparently you have never had some person that you have watched lick a wall for 4 months roll up on your xp party deep in a dungeon with his full S grade, complete with Drac Bow, somehow he manages to appear just as your AOE pull comes into the station.. and then you just type lol and hit the BSOE button.
The people that I know who complain most about getting rid of BSOE's are the bullies who are angry that their prey which is typically at least a gear grade below them, simply hit the button and get out before the guy can get his +1PvP.
Speaking for myself.. when someone BSOE's from me, I chalk it up as a victory, laugh, and go about my business. I don't need to see a +1PvP to feel like a man. Having the other person run is perfectly acceptable to me.
Yea buddy...especially when a higher level BSOEs away from you....you know your doing something right. BSOEs make my day when others use them. :cool:
So if I'm polearming 2 rooms full of cata mobs, and a guy runs up to me and hits me.. what happens?
absolutely nothing bad happens, you remain white while poling 20 full rooms even if your enemy is standing right on top of all mobs and flaggin on you, but pressing ctrl will make you flag in this scenerio.
Learn to accept the fact that a BSOE is a win. It does not take a +1 to your PvP score for a fight to have been a victory.
at the end of the day it would make a difference of 50-300 rep points to your clan on average, so ya making your enemies fall is important.
if you want bsoes to not work on flagged players, CHANGE THE FLAGGING RULES FOR PARTY SUPPORT! (WCs, BD/SWS, healers w/ a group heal) otherwise your really screwing over alot of players.
absolutely nothing bad happens, you remain white while poling 20 full rooms even if your enemy is standing right on top of all mobs and flaggin on you, but pressing ctrl will make you flag in this scenerio.
Not sure if they changed it since way-back-when they had the monster armies attacking the cities and all, but I don't believe you need to press CTRL to strike a non-grouped, non-guilded person in range of your polearm.
Obviously, I'm not a pole-user to know for certain, but I seem to remember getting people to flag during those battles so our AOEer could take them out, without themselves flagging, by targeting the mob standing next to the flagged victims.
I tried griefing farmers in my AoE territory by flagging on them and standing in their pole arc before.
They simply did not flag unless they used a skill (would have to be careful with that if you see someone running in), but still went through my CP. :( Ouch!
In general I am kinda confused as to why a game that advertises itself as a PVP game does everything in its power to discourage it. With that rant aside to respond to this post I would like to say that the proliferation of bsoe and brez scrolls and others(buff scrolls) have diminished the worth of alot of classes in this game. People who have worked hard to level support classes dont deserve to have the worth of their hard earned skills be diminished by this. I think there should be bsoe and brez scrolls and such but make them rare items that are difficult to acquire. The state of the game now is such that there are instances of clans that are 95% DD classes. Who needs an EE when you have endless supplies of bsoe? Who needs a bishop when you have so many brez scrolls available? Dont rid the game of these items, just reduce their availability.
This isnt a pvp game thats the problem is a grind game has nothing to do with pvp if you think about everything in this game revolves around grinding not pvp.
How do you propose limiting the availability? Merchant of mammon sells them and tireless individuals will give you all the AA for the right price. Removing bsoe and brez will make the game even more carebear. People who can't xp or are griefed to death by someone who bought a toon/bought powerleveling will just quit. Not everyone is in a high power clan/ally that can go and get 2-3% per hour at level 76. At high levels that 1% is a lot of time. Now I'm sure there are more casual players then hard core gamers. Anyway, I'm starting to ramble.
BSOE / BREZ encourage pvp and pking not what people think that it limits it. Only people who want brez/bsoe removed are the ones that get off on making other people's lives miserable.
BSOE / BREZ encourage pvp and pking not what people think that it limits it. Only people who want brez/bsoe removed are the ones that get off on making other people's lives miserable.
lol@tailchaser. bsoe made this game carebear. it was far more hardcore without a "get out of pvp free card". pvp was much better before it existed and for that reason it should be removed (it only exists because koreans dont like pvp)
Not everyone on the NA servers enjoys PvP as much as they enjoy PvE...If you absolutely want BSOE to disappear then NCSoft should make BSOEing impossible while flagged or red.
And by the way some PvE areas requires more courage to go to than ganking...sorry...PvPing 9 vs 1...
So what if the person your trying to kill gets away from you. Not like your going to get anything from his death. Play in the arena to advoid Bsoe use lol. Knowing that he ran from you is a justified victory. Be brave and broadcast it to all hahahah. Stick around in that same area and he will come back with 5 to 10 of his pals. Now you have a fair match comming to you lol. Be strong, now is the time to use your Bsoe, oh wait you want to get rid of it. :)
So what if the person your trying to kill gets away from you. Not like your going to get anything from his death.
On the siege field, he gets away for cheap and I don't gain the one clan reputation point I deserve.
Be strong, now is the time to use your Bsoe, oh wait you want to get rid of it. :)
On the siege field, I don't have and won't ever have any kind of SoE in my active or visible quickbars. I'm there to fight for my clan's glory and reputation, acting like a scared coward is diametrically opposed to this goal.
PvE is another matter (although right now I don't care about the XP loss either).
Siege and open PvP/ganking is two completely different things.
Who is BSOEing from a siege when you get your scrolls that prevent you from loosing the 1% you loose in siege?
When I siege I'm not afraid to go up against 4 chars even when I know I am gonna kiss the ground. I have never used a BSOE when someone has attacked me in the open either....if they want to see me dead then they need to go red, but deep in a catacomb or MoS or something I sometimes BSOE when the mobs gets the upper hand on me.
Who is BSOEing from a siege when you get your scrolls that prevent you from loosing the 1% you loose in siege?
I could upload a replay, but since you can read our command channel in that (geez, thanks NCSoft!), I rather won't. :)
BSoE and BSoE:CH are - currently - cheaper than the A- and S-grade scrolls of courage, that's why they get used. And that's why I'd rather have them not work on siege field.
The funny thing is that those that complain that they're enemies are BSOE'ing are doing exactly the same thing if they find them self in the same position as the enemy.
I have even seen players use the exploit of force logging to avoid getting killed....just like our 24/7 afk friends that runs around. I know that almost everyone in the major PvP clans use 3rd party programs to bring up a map to show them who is close to them and to help them spam pots automatically.
I know atleast 1 from ** (won't say clan name so that this post won't get locked) uses it to see if he should BSOE or continue to farm in the catas...I saw him in action. After taking out my party he continued to exp, but when a rival clan came and was 2 rooms away from him and out of site he BSOE'd. There was no other players in the area at the time so no spy that could tell him that the enemies where close.
yes. that sounds good. BSOE should not be removed cuz of PvE. in Pvp, once you have flagged, you cant BSOE. that means once you engaged the fight, and you belive you will lose you have to figh to the biter end. but, if people come to gank you and you havent even hit anyone yet it should be free to BSOE.
yes. that sounds good. BSOE should not be removed cuz of PvE. in Pvp, once you have flagged, you cant BSOE. that means once you engaged the fight, and you belive you will lose you have to figh to the biter end. but, if people come to gank you and you havent even hit anyone yet it should be free to BSOE.
Why not allow the would-be gankee the opportunity to take 1 or 2 of his attackers out before escaping? Turn-about is, after all, fair play.
Ok Bighands, now you know to keep the finger off the ctrl button and you can pve.
Your new and improved circumstances:
As for you going after an enemy who has backup waiting for them around the corner or porting in... welcome to ambush and strategy. Viable aspects of the game.
If you chose to engage in PvP, and find yourself out-strategized, that's the risk you took. Run and hope you last long enough for the flag to wear off. Then BSOE.
What's the point in bothering to flag against people who will BSOE if you actually lay down some damage on them?
Except for that it isn't true. If a war tag of mine comes within range of any of my AOE's (except a few select OL one's) I flag when it goes off. This is even more fun, if you like me, fight wartags that like to bring untagged people with them to hand out the 4%'s.
It works fine for farmers also, we killed a whole bunch of them doing just this the other night.
BSOE is the answer to rampant gankings, and it is the reason that NCSoft put it in. If someone BSOE's in a straight up PvP, then that person is just a punk, and has just proven themself to be.
Whatsamatta? Your ego can't handle the guy running away, you need that +1 PvP to feel that you won the fight?
On top of that.. the tough guys that you are complaining about getting away from you - those same tools are simply going to forcelog if they can't BSOE. I've had it happen plenty of times.
Except for that it isn't true. If a war tag of mine comes within range of any of my AOE's (except a few select OL one's) I flag when it goes off. This is even more fun, if you like me, fight wartags that like to bring untagged people with them to hand out the 4%'s.
It works fine for farmers also, we killed a whole bunch of them doing just this the other night.
BSOE is the answer to rampant gankings, and it is the reason that NCSoft put it in. If someone BSOE's in a straight up PvP, then that person is just a punk, and has just proven themself to be.
Whatsamatta? Your ego can't handle the guy running away, you need that +1 PvP to feel that you won the fight?
On top of that.. the tough guys that you are complaining about getting away from you - those same tools are simply going to forcelog if they can't BSOE. I've had it happen plenty of times.
Except for that it isn't true. If a war tag of mine comes within range of any of my AOE's (except a few select OL one's) I flag when it goes off. This is even more fun, if you like me, fight wartags that like to bring untagged people with them to hand out the 4%'s.
It works fine for farmers also, we killed a whole bunch of them doing just this the other night.
BSOE is the answer to rampant gankings, and it is the reason that NCSoft put it in. If someone BSOE's in a straight up PvP, then that person is just a punk, and has just proven themself to be.
Whatsamatta? Your ego can't handle the guy running away, you need that +1 PvP to feel that you won the fight?
On top of that.. the tough guys that you are complaining about getting away from you - those same tools are simply going to forcelog if they can't BSOE. I've had it happen plenty of times.
"Whatsamatta? Your ego can't handle the guy running away, you need that +1 PvP to feel that you won the fight?"
Bighands, I hope you aren't making a personal attack on my character, you should know me better than that... maybe that was just a general statement...
I am a man of justice, of consequence. I believe that one's words and deeds carry a weight for good or ill. There is a reason why players flag and why the flag remains for a set period of time. That is to allow free and open recourse for the actions made (and a more "permanent" flagging for chaotics).
If you allow the BSOE to be used during that duration, you remove the opportunity for recourse.
If you are poling and a wartag comes within pole-strike range, you've got pvp on your hands. If You see a wartag, that means that you (as a clan leader) or the clan you have willingly joined has made the decision to war the other clan. Again it is a conscious decision to engage in pvp.
My opinion still holds.
I have never worried about my pvp count. It's not the type of player I am and anyone who knows me would know better than to even suggest that is an agenda of mine.
Edited to add: Maybe I am wrong, but even when poling and even when within striking distance of a war-tag, don't you still need to hold ctrl? Honestly don't know.
It's a simple thing to get anyone using any AOE skill to flag. Simply run up to the person and flag, when their AOE goes off, they flag. The people posting previously in this thread are mistaken.
And you are assuming, wrongly, that your wartags are going to fight you with the same type of honor with which you would fight them. If they do - then I agree, BSOE is unnecessary.
You and I have both been playing plenty long enough to know how this game works, and how most play it.
Changing BSOE would only hurt the legit players, and would have absolutely zero impact on the rest.
Legit players tend to take honor alot more seriously. Granted there are some players who play legit solely for fear of losing an account, but of those I know who play legit, we do so because that's how we approach gaming (and other aspects of our lives).
Not many legits I've spoken to about the topic like "get out of jail free cards" especially within pvp. We know how hard it is to grind levels, which is why most people I've spoken to in that category of player are in favor of keeping BSOEs in game.
But for the people who like to abuse them by flagging when they know they can win and then hitting the escape button when they realize they thought wrong... that's the issue I/we have with BSOEs.
But for the people who like to abuse them by flagging when they know they can win and then hitting the escape button when they realize they thought wrong... that's the issue I/we have with BSOEs.
Unfortunately, I run into that far less often than I run into all of the scenario's where BSOE's make sense, and solve the types of problems that I believe the Dev's put them into the game to resolve.
Perhaps it's related to us fighting different types of opponents.
Frankly, all defense is currently nullified in game because offensive classes can insta-kill gank one member of a party and then BSoE.
Unless you happen to be one of the few classes with a 1-hit win combo or ability, you might as well not exist.
This is inexcuseable in an open-PvP game.
Flag or chaotic should be unable to BSoE period.
If you flag, you knew you were going to...
Sacrificing the few too stupid to know when they are going to flag and getting some semblace of actual PvP other than insta-gank and BSoE is a VERY small price to pay.
Rarely run into the person looking to gank 1 member and BSOE. If the guy does that, he's a complete moron. He spends a 110k in order to cost you what? .1%?
More often than not it's something more along the lines of a PvP party with a 10+ lvl advantage jumping an XP party, who also happens to have 4 less actively played members. It's worth noting that this is not PvP, it's ganking. BSOEing when being ganked is not only acceptable, it is encouraged.
Typically I don't see people BSOE from a straight up PvP that is a fairly even match. Maybe if it's a 9v9, the last guy standing will BSOE, but who cares.
As I said - it may be a difference in servers, or opponents.
again, when your speaking of flagging and making a choice, it has been forgotten about party support classes that DO NOT GET A CHOICE! (WCs, bd/sws, group heals) if you party only in your clan always 100% of the time, it makes little difference, but if you get even mostly clan and an outside support person or if you are the outside support person, why get penalized with a 4% death from mobs or someone killing the flagged person should a gank group show up
note: while it can be said that its a consequence of partying with people in a war, show me a high lvl clan that isnt in a war ever (or, least on my server, a clan/ally that parties outside their own ally, but isnt in a war)
More likely he kills as many of you as he can and then when you actually turn the tide he BSoEs.
Then he comes back with 5 v 1 odds... They gank as many as they can and BSoE when anywhere near death.
Heal/buff in town and come back out...
Repeat ad nauseum...
Ebay/bot clans do not care about the cost of a BSoE...
Note that anyone who was just XPing can still just BSoE away from gank squads just fine... they won't be flagged and won't be red.
Its a necessary change to protect actual PvP... I'd rather die knowing I had a shot than be forced into the gatehpping/ganksquad tactics because the game not only encourages it but FORCES it.
More likely he kills as many of you as he can and then when you actually turn the tide he FORCELOGSs.
Then he comes back with 5 v 1 odds... They gank as many as they can and FORCELOG when anywhere near death.
Heal/buff in town and come back out...
Repeat ad nauseum...
Ebay/bot clans do not care about FORCELOGGING...
Note that anyone who was just XPing can still just BSoE away from gank squads just fine... they won't be flagged and won't be red.
Its a necessary change to protect actual PvP... I'd rather die knowing I had a shot than be forced into the gatehpping/ganksquad tactics because the game not only encourages it but FORCES it.
I fixed your quote to reflect what used to happen before BSOE's were introduced, and to reflect what would happen if they were changed in the way you want.
More often than not it's something more along the lines of a PvP party with a 10+ lvl advantage jumping an XP party, who also happens to have 4 less actively played members. It's worth noting that this is not PvP, it's ganking. BSOEing when being ganked is not only acceptable, it is encouraged.
Bighands, thanks for this description. One of the better ones I've seen written. The biggest complainers about bsoe use, in my view, are those who do what you describe and use their power (levels/equip, etc) to gank other players, not to engage in straight up PvP.
I'll give another example.. this happened to me over the weekend.
Myself (76+ BH), 76+ BD, 69 Bish - AOEing with me pole.
Along comes a 76+ SH with a 78+ EE - wartags to us.
What we did is fight them. The Bish was dropped in 2 shots, The BD took about 4, and I was last taking like 5 or 6 shots before I BSOE'd with 300HP left. I told the BD to get out when her HP was looking low, but she didn't have a BSOE on her.
We knew when we saw them that we had absolutely zero chance of winning. A BD and BH simply do not have the damage output, even against 2 guys in robes, and our Bish couldn't heal fast enough to keep himself alive. We fought anyways just to give it a shot.
Under your new rules...
We see them, they see us, we know we can't win, why bother risking it.. BSOE.
Bighands, thanks for this description. One of the better ones I've seen written. The biggest complainers about bsoe use, in my view, are those who do what you describe and use their power (levels/equip, etc) to gank other players, not to engage in straight up PvP.
BSoE's use in cases to avoid PvP when you aren't interested is fine IMHO.
People on the defense should have a choice...
Fight or flee...
Right now they have no choice... its only flee because they know the minute they get anywhere near killing on of their assailants, they are going to BSoE.
And I have waited up to 4 hours to PK a forcelogged player when he logs back in... Revenge is a dish best served cold.
Most log back in 10 minutes later...
And if forcelog and BSoE while flagged/red went the way of the dodo?
ROFL.. waited 4 hours..
Forcelogging has been an exploit for what? 5 chronicles? lol
And guess what. if they did finally fix it, and remove BSOE's..
Then those same [censored] that are making you so angry with this will simply bring an EE with them.
I used to fight a clan who liked to do that too.. EE went with them everywhere.. their favorite game.. kill your guys until the EE was afraid he might die, then party recall.
So I guess you want party recall removed too then eh?
Bighands, thanks for this description. One of the better ones I've seen written. The biggest complainers about bsoe use, in my view, are those who do what you describe and use their power (levels/equip, etc) to gank other players, not to engage in straight up PvP.
BSoE's use in cases to avoid PvP when you aren't interested is fine IMHO.
People on the defense should have a choice...
Fight or flee...
Right now they have no choice... its only flee because they know the minute they get anywhere near killing on of their assailants, they are going to BSoE.
You are totally missing the point.
The people who are doing this too you, are a bunch of *******s. They aren't interested in PvP. They are interested in ganking you.
Changing the BSOE rules isn't going to hurt them, changing the Forcelog thing won't either, and neither will removing Party Recall. Do all that, and the guy will just bring an SWS, gank you and then run away as fast as they can.
Those [censored] are always going to find a way to be [censored].
On the other hand, it is worth giving an idea further review to make sure you aren't going to be hurting the regular player.
I'll give another example.. this happened to me over the weekend.
Myself (76+ BH), 76+ BD, 69 Bish - AOEing with me pole.
Along comes a 76+ SH with a 78+ EE - wartags to us.
What we did is fight them. The Bish was dropped in 2 shots, The BD took about 4, and I was last taking like 5 or 6 shots before I BSOE'd with 300HP left. I told the BD to get out when her HP was looking low, but she didn't have a BSOE on her.
We knew when we saw them that we had absolutely zero chance of winning. A BD and BH simply do not have the damage output, even against 2 guys in robes, and our Bish couldn't heal fast enough to keep himself alive. We fought anyways just to give it a shot.
Under your new rules...
We see them, they see us, we know we can't win, why bother risking it.. BSOE.
The only difference under my new rules would have been that you ate a wartime death... which you should have...
You knew the consequences for flagging and you knew what would happen. You made a decision to fight and you had already sacrificed your two clannies for your attempt.
Frankly, you were overmatched by levels and the wrong party for wartime...
NO idea how your bishop went down so fast to a SH with no buffs except Wild Magic (and maybe an empower scroll)... time to upgrade those elven jewels?
The 69 bishop has what? 4500 HP and 1700CPs self buffed?
(68 bishop has the equivalent of BTB5)
You are telling me the SH with no BD buffs does upward of 3100 damage per shot? Oh come on.... he would have had to crit both shots to 2-hit the bishop. It isn't impossible... but it is as lucky as possible for him.
The thing is that you made a decision, and you and you alone got away when by all rights you SHOULD have died.
You declared war and you chose to fight and flag.
This is a LOT better than knowing there is no way to kill an opponenet who attacks you because the minute they get anywhere near death they forcelog or BSoE.
You choose to PvP means you choose to stand and fight and win or die.
*sigh*
An EE has a skill. One must level an EE to get that skill. Removing BSOEs from the game adds value to the EE class. So I'm all for keeping that skill.
An EE using party recall must be ... in a party. As such for the gankers, they must use one spot in each party they want to recall for an EE instead of 9 DDs that allhave bsoes.
They need to *cough* earn *cough* the levels of the EE with them for what it's worth and no one has suggested denying that as a viable and earned part of the game.
No one here is in favor of forcelogging. Forcelogging is against the EULA. GM cheaters. Also a forcelog doesn't land you safely in town or clan hall like the BSOE does.
Any healer/support that parties with people at war are willfully taking that risk. Want to PvE with non-warred people? Start a pve clan and party with your own people. You do have choices and you make them freely.
I still stand on the ground that if you CHOOSE to flag (and aside from that highly circumstantial situation offered by BH... you ARE choosing to flag) you need to deal with the consequences of your actions.
Sounds like a lot of excuses for starting a fight and chickening out.
Yup, I am the vengeful and very patient type... I camped him until he came back for the clannies he ganked.
Forcelogging has been an exploit for what? 5 chronicles? lol
Aye and needs to die.
And guess what. if they did finally fix it, and remove BSOE's..
Then those same [censored] that are making you so angry with this will simply bring an EE with them.
I used to fight a clan who liked to do that too.. EE went with them everywhere.. their favorite game.. kill your guys until the EE was afraid he might die, then party recall.
So I guess you want party recall removed too then eh?
Nope... party recall has its disadvantages...
Making an EE nervous is easy, and thus all you need to do to "win" is assist on the EE...
Bubye whole party...
Let em yank the party if they use the skill... much better than the party BSoEing individually.
The people who are doing this too you, are a bunch of *******s. They aren't interested in PvP. They are interested in ganking you.
Correct, but I want the chance to turn the tables.
Changing the BSOE rules isn't going to hurt them, changing the Forcelog thing won't either, and neither will removing Party Recall. Do all that, and the guy will just bring an SWS, gank you and then run away as fast as they can.
Do you happen to know what Root does? Stun? Silence? Trance?
Do you PvP at all?
Players can counter each one of the other escape methods and it forces "live" useage of classes in PvP which usually do not show.
Those [censored] are always going to find a way to be [censored].
Right... but we can make it harder for them.
On the other hand, it is worth giving an idea further review to make sure you aren't going to be hurting the regular player.
I still don't see any harm for the regular player (who isn't a complete idiot) and a great deal of benefit in disabling things which allow players to exploit the rules to make themselves invulnerable.
I still stand on the ground that if you CHOOSE to flag (and aside from that highly circumstantial situation offered by BH... you ARE choosing to flag) you need to deal with the consequences of your actions.
that choice isnt necessarily a choice for all. ex: any mixed clan party with 1 or more members at war. a war tag comes by, those at war flag on the tag while those not in the war can also become flagged due to the nature of their skills. so to say it is a choice to flag is not 100% accurate thus making it so flagged people are unable to use a bsoe creates the situations where legit players just out xping can get royally screwed.
If you are grouped with a warring clan those clan members should warn you.
If a warring clan kills a non-warring clan they take the chance of incurring war from the new clan they killed.
Again, its a PvP game and you are making a choice grouping with wartags. All AoE skills and buffs are something you press a button for... EVERY class has to deal with this especially in an AoE party....
Again if you flag when you don't want to, then you deserve to die. You pressed the button, you made a decision. Note that even WITH BSoE if you flag and the right class comes up, you still die.
Meanwhile I will be killing the guy who attacked me because the dork can't BSoE anymore.
I still stand on the ground that if you CHOOSE to flag (and aside from that highly circumstantial situation offered by BH... you ARE choosing to flag) you need to deal with the consequences of your actions.
that choice isnt necessarily a choice for all. ex: any mixed clan party with 1 or more members at war. a war tag comes by, those at war flag on the tag while those not in the war can also become flagged due to the nature of their skills. so to say it is a choice to flag is not 100% accurate thus making it so flagged people are unable to use a bsoe creates the situations where legit players just out xping can get royally screwed.
Ok, let me go through this again. S-l-o-w-l-y.
If you join a mixed party, you CHOOSE to join a mixed party.
You+Choose=Choice.
If the members of the mixed party you CHOSE to join have active wars, you are accepting a RISK.
You+Chose+Risk=Choice
If you have not discussed with the mixed party you CHOSE to join, the general course of action to be taken in the event of attack, then you are complicit with any actions taken by those people and its affects on you when using your skills.
You+Chose+Complicity=Choice
If the mixed party you CHOSE to join has discussed a course of action in the event of attack that would prevent you from flagging BUT you or another member of the party you CHOSE to join acts counter to that agreement, you are a victim of your choice in actions or partymates.
You+Chose+BadAction/BadDecision=Choice.
Any way you slice that up you have still made choices of your own which affect your state (flagged or not flagged).
If You are a support that doesn't want to PvP, that's fine. Find a group that wants the same. Players who have elected to join or remain in a clan at war have accepted the risks of pvp and those who elect to party with them, by extension and choice accept similar risks.
Knowing you are partied with bloodlusters should keep you paying enough attention to avoid foolish choices when people you party with engage in pvp, allowing you time to BSOE unflagged instead of using your support skill on a flagged partymate.
I'll give another example.. this happened to me over the weekend.
Myself (76+ BH), 76+ BD, 69 Bish - AOEing with me pole.
Along comes a 76+ SH with a 78+ EE - wartags to us.
What we did is fight them. The Bish was dropped in 2 shots, The BD took about 4, and I was last taking like 5 or 6 shots before I BSOE'd with 300HP left. I told the BD to get out when her HP was looking low, but she didn't have a BSOE on her.
We knew when we saw them that we had absolutely zero chance of winning. A BD and BH simply do not have the damage output, even against 2 guys in robes, and our Bish couldn't heal fast enough to keep himself alive. We fought anyways just to give it a shot.
Under your new rules...
We see them, they see us, we know we can't win, why bother risking it.. BSOE.
The only difference under my new rules would have been that you ate a wartime death... which you should have...
No, the difference would have been we simply would have BSOE'd instead of PvPing at all.
You knew the consequences for flagging and you knew what would happen. You made a decision to fight and you had already sacrificed your two clannies for your attempt.
Frankly, you were overmatched by levels and the wrong party for wartime...
Ahhh and here lies the reason I don't want it changed. It would absolutely ruin PvP. If people did not know 100% for sure that they would win.. they would BSOE without even trying.
NO idea how your bishop went down so fast to a SH with no buffs except Wild Magic (and maybe an empower scroll)... time to upgrade those elven jewels?
The 69 bishop has what? 4500 HP and 1700CPs self buffed?
(68 bishop has the equivalent of BTB5)
You are telling me the SH with no BD buffs does upward of 3100 damage per shot? Oh come on.... he would have had to crit both shots to 2-hit the bishop. It isn't impossible... but it is as lucky as possible for him.
Let's see.. the two guys just came from their clan hall and were fully buffed, and the SH had POW on him. 1 of those two hits, was a nice big crit. Dead Bish.
The thing is that you made a decision, and you and you alone got away when by all rights you SHOULD have died.
You declared war and you chose to fight and flag.
This is a LOT better than knowing there is no way to kill an opponenet who attacks you because the minute they get anywhere near death they forcelog or BSoE.
You choose to PvP means you choose to stand and fight and win or die.
Eva forbid people's choices had consequences.
And this is why you are simply being hard headed and not thinking.
The change you are asking for is simply going to make people BSOE if they don't think they can win, or even if they're afraid of taking some losses. They won't even try.
You're so angry over getting ganked and your inability to stop the ganker from getting away that you are blinded to the implications of what your request would have on PvP in the larger scale.
This problem would only get worse as people get higher in level. The risk of a legit person at 78+ is approximately 3 to 4 hours to replace the .5% loss they take if they return to the CH after taking a war tag death.
The majority of Legit people are not going to want to take that risk, the unlegit, like the ******* you are crying about will not care, and won't bat an eyelash.
As I said. Your request will have ZERO impact on the people that are griefing you. They will continue to grief you, only it will be worse because if they trick you into flagging, you have lost your escape route.
*sigh*
An EE has a skill. One must level an EE to get that skill. Removing BSOEs from the game adds value to the EE class. So I'm all for keeping that skill.
An EE using party recall must be ... in a party. As such for the gankers, they must use one spot in each party they want to recall for an EE instead of 9 DDs that allhave bsoes.
They need to *cough* earn *cough* the levels of the EE with them for what it's worth and no one has suggested denying that as a viable and earned part of the game.
No one here is in favor of forcelogging. Forcelogging is against the EULA. GM cheaters. Also a forcelog doesn't land you safely in town or clan hall like the BSOE does.
Any healer/support that parties with people at war are willfully taking that risk. Want to PvE with non-warred people? Start a pve clan and party with your own people. You do have choices and you make them freely.
I still stand on the ground that if you CHOOSE to flag (and aside from that highly circumstantial situation offered by BH... you ARE choosing to flag) you need to deal with the consequences of your actions.
Sounds like a lot of excuses for starting a fight and chickening out.
Sound more like someone who is very inexperienced in the PvP aspects of this game.
Let me ask you:
Your party of 9 is in a nice catacomb room PvEing away, and having a nice old time.
In runs a Gladi and a SH. They go straight for your healer, and start blasting.
What do you do?
Fight back? Ignore them? Take them out?
So what about the 2 parties of untagged friends they have hiding around the corner waiting for your [censored] to flag so they can lay a nice 4% on you?
You have 2 choices according to your request. Flag and welcome PvP with whomever happens to be around, and good luck. Or BSOE right then.
No, the difference would have been we simply would have BSOE'd instead of PvPing at all.
That would be a choice you could make... indeed the one you should have made instead of sacrificing two clannies. Instead you chose to fight... in that case you eat a wartime death... realistically it isn't much of a difference. Oh noes! you actually died in a war!
Ahhh and here lies the reason I don't want it changed. It would absolutely ruin PvP. If people did not know 100% for sure that they would win.. they would BSOE without even trying.
Here is the simple fact.... there IS no PvP. People can ONLY gank because no one stays to die unless they are too poor to buy a BSoE.
Let's see.. the two guys just came from their clan hall and were fully buffed, and the SH had POW on him. 1 of those two hits, was a nice big crit. Dead Bish.
Woo, and bish then has 3000HP left and believe it or not bishops have these things called heals... bigtime skill involved in spamming GBH on herself or popping a pot.
If they were "fully buffed" and you were not, then frankly you should lose.
Face it, you were both unprepared and completely unskilled and the SH/EE combo did indeed school you... then you chickened out after sacrificing two clannies.
If you were in my clan, you would be getting a stern talking to... not for running, but for not having the sense to run when you were obviously outranked in both buffs, PvP skill, and classes.
And this is why you are simply being hard headed and not thinking.
The change you are asking for is simply going to make people BSOE if they don't think they can win, or even if they're afraid of taking some losses. They won't even try.
So you mean like now only the gank squads will have to commit or not gank?
Sign me up.
You're so angry over getting ganked and your inability to stop the ganker from getting away that you are blinded to the implications of what your request would have on PvP in the larger scale.
No, I am thinking of the game itself and overall play... you are thinking of you and you alone. Your stance comes from having high HP and being able to "try" PvP and then BSoE after pulling your less durable clannies to their deaths. My stance comes from PvPing since Prelude and playing both squishy and less-squishy characters.
This problem would only get worse as people get higher in level. The risk of a legit person at 78+ is approximately 3 to 4 hours to replace the .5% loss they take if they return to the CH after taking a war tag death.
So in other words, its okay for your clannies to die and have to do this, but you don't want to...
The majority of Legit people are not going to want to take that risk, the unlegit, like the ******* you are crying about will not care, and won't bat an eyelash.
Wanna bet? Legit and skilled players win more often than not over botfarmers... they don't practice group PvP and thus die horribly. If they can't f1, f1, f1, f1, bsoe, they don't know what to do... When they can't insta-run they generally get stomped. If they get stomped often enough they won't show up. As it stands they can gank, bsoe, gank, bsoe, repeat... if they gank, die 5 to 1 and go back to town, odds are they won't be back. (time to find easier targets)
If the incoming force is 9 v 1... yah I am going to run... if its even or close... I am going to fight. I like PvP, and I like a challenge. I have died plenty of times in PvP... might as well add one to the bunch.
As I said. Your request will have ZERO impact on the people that are griefing you. They will continue to grief you, only it will be worse because if they trick you into flagging, you have lost your escape route.
Think about that.
Trust me... if we stomp them a couple times in a row, they aren't coming back.
(by that time we will have many groups of clannies in the area... they better bring lots of friends)
If they do... sweet... more freebie pvp ticks.
If we lose.... it happens... at least I made a choice.
If they trick you into flagging, everyone but the high HP people are dead anyways... this doesn't change anything except give YOU personally a way to run. Its just a repeat of the example you gave above... they die, you BSoE.
If you are not in the mood or not prepared, you run... if they commit a force and keep a reserve, this is good tactics... and if you fall for it, you deserve to die... then again, you could do the same thing.
Again we are talking PvP tactics other than gank and BSoE... all of which is music to my ears.
Thalenduros, you talk pretty big, what clan and server are you on? How many wars you guys have going, and who with?
Can we get some credentials? Your level and class. I'm interested in knowing where you are coming from and what experience you have to back up your opinion.
I've stated mine, now you state yours.
As it stands, you sound like someone who is mad because a red that hangs out pking lowbies around AC keeps getting away from you.
You still aren't hearing me.
You are still going to get griefed by the exact same people who are doing it to you now. Changing the BSOE rule will make little to no difference whatsoever, because a griefer is a griefer, they will simply change their tactics.
If you could actually cover your mouth, you'd simply interrupt the guys BSOE and kill him. There are plenty of ways to do it.
If you like PvP, as you say you do, then you realise what changing the BSOE rule would do to it. It would simply kill it completely off.
The only time people would PvP or even try to fight is if they are certain they would win. Gank party shows up.. everyone BSOE instantly, don't even try to fight.
Gank and BSOE would be the exact name of the game, just like it already is, only worse, because the gankees don't even get the option to fight back and if it doesn't go well, to bail.
remove bsoes and i will do even less pvp than i do now
fact is as a low DPS class with the current pots in game i cant kill any class before someone comes in to 4% me
I think Bighands is banking that we don't remember PvP before BSOEs were introduced to the game.
Look if your standard battle tactic is:
Act tough, let your squishies die, BSOE, talk trash afterwards...
I can definitely understand passionately striving to keep BSOEs in the game as-is.
I think Bighands is banking that we don't remember PvP before BSOEs were introduced to the game.
Look if your standard battle tactic is:
Act tough, let your squishies die, BSOE, talk trash afterwards...
I can definitely understand passionately striving to keep BSOEs in the game as-is.
You're living in la-la land my friend if you believe that.
As far as you go, I know the extent of your PvP experience. We've known each other a long time, and I've paid attention to your server forums, same as you take note of mine.
There is nearly constant PvP for my ally. Typically there isn't an hour that goes by in a night that someone isn't getting into a fight. That is how we have chosen to play the game.
I've given you guys multiple specific scenarios to support my arguements, what have you offered to support your opinion? Nothing.
Now you've degraded to trying to attack me, which I take to mean that I have indeed won this arguement.
I'm all for reds and the zariche holder not being able to BSOE - as I stated earlier in the thread. Changing the rules for flagged players is simply ignorant and not thought out.
You're starting to sound like the bullies I fight against on a nightly basis, who are looking for nothing more than an easy +1 PvP.
As I've stated multiple times, who cares if a flagged player BSOE's or not, a victory is a victory. +1 PvP does not make a victory. Of course, I don't believe sweeping a lvl 60 catacomb with lvl 75's is a victory either.
Maybe the players are different on the server you play on, but where I come from, the only impact your request would have is that the ******* would simply send in 1 or 2 people to get everyone to flag before sending in the party of S graders with Drac bows to clean them up. The end result - people would simply BSOE and not even try to fight.
You liked my last example did you? You thought I should have stuck around and taken the death do you? Not a chance, when you PvP as much as we do, it's ignorant to take that death. If the rules were as you request, we would simply have BSOE'd when the hero EE and 76+ SH showed up. Ask them, and they will tell you that they were happy we even stuck around to give it a try. At least we all got some fight out of it. Had we started winning - a couple lucky stuns or spell interrupts is all it would have taken, I have no doubt they would have either BSOE'd or PR'd. Would I have been mad about that? Hell no, if they run it's a victory for us. I don't need that +1 PvP to feel like I won.
Not sure what "scenarios" you require for me to illustrate my opinion on the matter. It's pretty straightforward.
My opinion is that under any circumstance (as wild and far-fetched as you seem to need them to be in order to make your points, or as normal and mundane as most tend to be) when you flag, by your own actions you have elected to engage in a fight.
During the time in which you are being Mister Badass (flagged or red) you should not be able to use the *poof* card. Deal with the consequences of your actions.
Employ an ounce of strategy when you make the decision of whether to flag or not. Invite an EE to your party if your need to instantly flee is important to you. Develop an attack plan so that some of the party may remain unflagged and able to bsoe if you failed at strategy, and let your heavy hp players wear off the flag and bsoe if that is your playstyle.
You seem to require the ability to engage in the fight then insta-flee when the going gets tough, and that is part of the problem with PvP in today's L2... IMHO of course.
Our courses of action are very different Bighands which is why we didn't remain clanned together back in the day. It's cool, I still think you are a fine player and good guy. And despite what you may imply and/or believe, Glace always used to get on my case about being a war-monger.
I know I have a care-bear stigma, and I'm perfectly fine with that. My ego has never affected my approach to gameplay and I'm the same player now as I was on Gustin. Clan dynamics have never changed me, and I believe in the same ideals today as I did 2 years ago when you were tagged the same as I.
I and my clanmates made the decision when we arrived that we were playing the game a certain way, and just because other players may resort to dishonorable, cowardly, or otherwise non-agreeable tactics, we would not allow that to dictate the way we play the game.
Not everyone shares that same conviction, of course. And not everyone shares my opinion(s). Totally understandable.
If two people flag one of them dies, or if they have the HP, wait for the flag to wear off?
That's a fine ideal. Except doing so will kill PvP for the majority of legit players at the high levels. It simply is not worth the risk of spending several hours getting that XP back in order to have a little fun PvP. For the *******, it will make no difference, they get the xp back while sleeping anyhow.
This is why they put BSOE's in in the first place, and it's also the reason they are reducing xp loss at 76+ in Interlude.
The bottom line - your rule change hurts the legit regular player, who logs a couple hours per night, and PvP's every day or two. It has absolutely zero impact for the ****** griefer type player, except for that now, his pray either runs or commits right off the bat, and in all truth makes them far easier to grief.
I have yet to make up any wild scenarios in this thread, I have spoken from straight experience. Here's another experience - many of the people we are at war with enjoy bringing a few untagged friends along for the ride when we PvP, typically these guys do not appear until after the actual PvP has gotten under way. They don't care if they lose 4%, because they magically get it back - we however, being actual legit players, prefer not to take that 4% death. Under your rule - hey if we flag, we're fair game, and at the mercy of a tactic neither you nor I support. This is actually very common on our server, and yet another scenario, where people who have committed to PvP should be permitted to escape. There are many, many more.
Bighands, you and I both wish that NCS would do something about the people who magically gain their XP. Certainly you aren't under the impression that you are the only legit player that has to deal with people who manage to sleep their xp back?
Since when are we in the business of creating rules that are designed to work around NCS desire to ignore cheaters?
Those are 2 separate issues, and you know it. We all have to deal with people who can't handle competetion, and thus need to find ways around it. Gustin is not special or unique sir.
I am speaking about the role of the BSOE and its effect on gameplay, and it's general abuses across the board. I can applaud your attempt at highlighting how that abuse can in some way lessen the plight of the legit player when facing the not-so-legit player... but the not-so-legit player is always going to get a leg up on you by finding ways to work outside the game parameters.
Separate subject my friend, and one we'll agree upon. Something should be done, should have been done about the cowards who can't handle plkaying the way you and I do... the way the game was designed to be played. But that is not the discussion of this thread.
See, legit players can BSOE when flagged against legit players too. It's still cheap, and is still part of the downward trend in this game. My opinion still stands that if you are frisky enough to flag, you should stick it out at least till the flag wears off, or be EE friendly.
The issue is that if NCSoft is not going to do it's job then the rest of us need a way to deal with that.
Certainly legit players do sometimes run or BSOE when they should not, but the impact on the game play is minimal. Hell, I've done it standing in the clanhall before. I've seen people hit the wrong button in PvP, and I've seen people just panic and hit it without thinking.
I agree to a certain extent - if you flag, you're accepting the challenge, or issueing it, be prepared for the consequence. However, I think you and I also agree that porting in a second party to change the odds from 9v9 to 18v9 is also not the most honorable thing to do when the other guys had agreed to the 9v9. Same with having a couple of untagged's pop out from behind a corner in the middle of a clan war PvP. There's several other tricks just like that, which you and I both consider unsavory, and which happen ALOT, at least on my server.
Those tricks are not going to go away. BSOE is the answer when the enemy does something which is in poor taste, and as you look at it, dishonorable.
Just like BSOEing at the end of a fair fight is cowardly and in poor taste.
The difference is that by attempting to fix something minor, there is unforseen and unconsidered consequences.
There are many more times when BSOEing is neither cowardly nor dishonorable than there are when it is the wrong choice. Therein lies the problem - a fix for something minor creates some poor sideeffects.
If you and I meet on the field, and we choose to fight by both flagging, but then a friend of mine jumps in.. Don't you feel you should be permitted to withdraw from the engagement?
There are many things that players do, which I may find to be dishonorable. Much of that I am happy to see, frankly. I enjoy that the game allows players the freedom to be as honorable or as lowly as they are (or roleplay being).
Heck, that's why I enjoy L2 so much, because people who not only have the desire to play the way I do, but the discipline to continue playing the way I do when there are easier roads are so rare. I've never wanted to run with the crowd and l2 makes it possible because the game doesn't railroad you.
Players can employ a variety of tactics and strategies whether in battle, in politics or in economy.
2 Factors need to be addressed by the company. Means by which players can gain unfair advantage through exploiting and/or cheating (a different topic from that whiich this thread represents), and elements within the game which have a dysfunctional or detrimental effect and should be considered for review.
In this case I propose that a dysfunctional element is the BSOE. That its use by flagged and chaotic players is a negative in the game, allowing for pvp abuses. It is my belief that by causing a player to flag for a temporaryperiod, NCS means to say that "here is a viable target, open to retaliation if you so choose." To allow retaliation, in other words. The BSOE renders the flagging system relatively broken.
Bighands, there is alot we'll always agree on. Not this one.
I think the biggest difference between us is in the Retaliation portion of what you say.
For me, if the guy flags, and then BSOE's from me, I have won the fight, he has lost. When he hits the button he has admitted defeat, same as if he laid his sword on the ground, knelt and asked for Mercy.
I have no need to remove his head to feel I have won. Even if the guy took out 2 of my friends before surrendering, I still don't have to see him lying dead on the ground to feel that I won the fight.
Thalenduros, you talk pretty big, what clan and server are you on? How many wars you guys have going, and who with?
Server: Hindemith
Clan: doesn't matter
Wars: 1 - same as everyone else on Hindemith... with the biggest and oldest bot/scam clan on the server. Granted this is with multiple clans... but the people are the same so it doesn't really matter. Expect they have the best money can buy.
Can we get some credentials? Your level and class. I'm interested in knowing where you are coming from and what experience you have to back up your opinion.
I've stated mine, now you state yours.
Because claiming you have played X Y and Z and a number value sure proves your point...
You don't have any credentials.
You told me you play a dorf who strands his clannies to die so he can "try" PvP.
I am not gonna bother with the list of classes and levels when your next move is the typical jr high response of "I don't believe you".
I have played since Prelude and been in (almost) every major siege and open war on our server. My personality tends to get me in plenty of confrontations... If you believe nothing else at least we can agree on that.
As it stands, you sound like someone who is mad because a red that hangs out pking lowbies around AC keeps getting away from you.
You don't even level academy toons to make up for losing clan points by killing clannies... wow, just wow.
If you did, you'd know the reds don't hang out in AC because no one gets upset about level 2x characters dying.
You still aren't hearing me.
You are still going to get griefed by the exact same people who are doing it to you now. Changing the BSOE rule will make little to no difference whatsoever, because a griefer is a griefer, they will simply change their tactics.
A griefer is a 13-yr-old mentality that can be manipulated. They WILL NOT FIGHT if they cannot guarantee a win. Much like you, if they think they are going to lose anything they will always run.
you'd simply interrupt the guys BSOE and kill him. There are plenty of ways to do it.
Can you stop people from BSoE? yes.
Can you stop them reactively? Not reliably.
Tell me, how does your dorf stop that SH/SS from BSoEing?
Remember, I had to remind you about silence and root to stop party return and running away with Sws buffs...
If you like PvP, as you say you do, then you realise what changing the BSOE rule would do to it. It would simply kill it completely off.
The only time people would PvP or even try to fight is if they are certain they would win. Gank party shows up.. everyone BSOE instantly, don't even try to fight.
This is how it is already... my way at least forces a gank party to commit.
Gank and BSOE would be the exact name of the game, just like it already is, only worse, because the gankees don't even get the option to fight back and if it doesn't go well, to bail.
There is no PvP right now.
Take your riddlin and listen for once.
Gank parties are currently riskless... if they have risk, they won't do it unless they think they can back it up. Real PvP will ensue for the clans who intend actual PvP. All of a sudden the gank party is FORCED to PvP and cannot run if they underestimate their opponent. Neither can the defenders if they flag, but all is fair.
You make a decision BEFORE starting a fight... and you claim victory or suffer defeat based on that choice and your strategy and follow-through.
Hey look! PvP which doesn't revolve around F1 F1 F1 BSoE!
Everyone is better off except the PvP novices who simply BSoE when they start losing HP.
I think the biggest difference between us is in the Retaliation portion of what you say.
For me, if the guy flags, and then BSOE's from me, I have won the fight, he has lost. When he hits the button he has admitted defeat, same as if he laid his sword on the ground, knelt and asked for Mercy.
I have no need to remove his head to feel I have won. Even if the guy took out 2 of my friends before surrendering, I still don't have to see him lying dead on the ground to feel that I won the fight.
This is where you prove you don't PvP.
He isn't gone... he is getting friends.
Legit or not, he is gathering friends and will be back with yet another gate in, run to try to gank, BSoE... they do this in WAVES.
Your best move is to leave because if you don't they will gank/BSoE you out of there.
You just lost your hunting grounds and get no satisfaction for it.
The game should enforce living or dying by your decisions and make the game about PvP.
Yes, you can use BSoE to avoid PvP if you are unable or unwilling... but flag and you have made a commitment.
Don't get me wrong... gank squads will still exist... but they will have to be actually capable instead of automatic now.
I think the biggest difference between us is in the Retaliation portion of what you say.
For me, if the guy flags, and then BSOE's from me, I have won the fight, he has lost. When he hits the button he has admitted defeat, same as if he laid his sword on the ground, knelt and asked for Mercy.
I have no need to remove his head to feel I have won. Even if the guy took out 2 of my friends before surrendering, I still don't have to see him lying dead on the ground to feel that I won the fight.
You just lost your hunting grounds and get no satisfaction for it.
And finally you state what your argument is about.
I get plenty of satisfaction out of the person BSOEing. Unlike you, my ego does not require the +1 PvP point to enjoy the victory.
Also unlike you, my clan members and I stand and fight if we think we have a chance, rather than only fighting if it's a guaranteed victory.
What you want to do is ruin PvP so that the only time people flag is if they know they have the fight won, and that is just plain ignorant.
Legit or not, he is gathering friends and will be back with yet another gate in, run to try to gank, BSoE... they do this in WAVES.
ROFL.. The guys you are fighting are [censored] if they are doing that to you, and changing the BSOE rule will hardly impact it at all. Except one little bit. When the guy comes in the second time, and you all flag to kill him, every one of his buddies will pop in right behind him and you will get rolled with no opportunity to escape.
Here's a tip for you though, since your apparent inexperience and hardheadedness seem to be getting in your way. When the guy tries it the first time, make a /target ****** macro. Then move to the hallway and spam that macro. When you pick him up, have the entire party assist you and drop his *** before he can BSOE.
If you're dead set on keeping your hunting spot after wartags have found you, you might also consider putting a scout so that you can see them coming and be ready for it. The fact is though, once wartags have found your spot - BSOE or no, it is either no longer XP time and has changed to PvP time, or you need to move.
Thalenduros, you talk pretty big, what clan and server are you on? How many wars you guys have going, and who with?
Server: Hindemith
Clan: doesn't matter
Wars: 1 - same as everyone else on Hindemith... with the biggest and oldest bot/scam clan on the server. Granted this is with multiple clans... but the people are the same so it doesn't really matter. Expect they have the best money can buy.
Can we get some credentials? Your level and class. I'm interested in knowing where you are coming from and what experience you have to back up your opinion.
I've stated mine, now you state yours.
Because claiming you have played X Y and Z and a number value sure proves your point...
You don't have any credentials.
You told me you play a dorf who strands his clannies to die so he can "try" PvP.
I am not gonna bother with the list of classes and levels when your next move is the typical jr high response of "I don't believe you".
I have played since Prelude and been in (almost) every major siege and open war on our server. My personality tends to get me in plenty of confrontations... If you believe nothing else at least we can agree on that.
As it stands, you sound like someone who is mad because a red that hangs out pking lowbies around AC keeps getting away from you.
You don't even level academy toons to make up for losing clan points by killing clannies... wow, just wow.
If you did, you'd know the reds don't hang out in AC because no one gets upset about level 2x characters dying.
You still aren't hearing me.
You are still going to get griefed by the exact same people who are doing it to you now. Changing the BSOE rule will make little to no difference whatsoever, because a griefer is a griefer, they will simply change their tactics.
A griefer is a 13-yr-old mentality that can be manipulated. They WILL NOT FIGHT if they cannot guarantee a win. Much like you, if they think they are going to lose anything they will always run.
you'd simply interrupt the guys BSOE and kill him. There are plenty of ways to do it.
Can you stop people from BSoE? yes.
Can you stop them reactively? Not reliably.
Tell me, how does your dorf stop that SH/SS from BSoEing?
Remember, I had to remind you about silence and root to stop party return and running away with Sws buffs...
If you like PvP, as you say you do, then you realise what changing the BSOE rule would do to it. It would simply kill it completely off.
The only time people would PvP or even try to fight is if they are certain they would win. Gank party shows up.. everyone BSOE instantly, don't even try to fight.
This is how it is already... my way at least forces a gank party to commit.
Gank and BSOE would be the exact name of the game, just like it already is, only worse, because the gankees don't even get the option to fight back and if it doesn't go well, to bail.
There is no PvP right now.
Take your riddlin and listen for once.
Gank parties are currently riskless... if they have risk, they won't do it unless they think they can back it up. Real PvP will ensue for the clans who intend actual PvP. All of a sudden the gank party is FORCED to PvP and cannot run if they underestimate their opponent. Neither can the defenders if they flag, but all is fair.
You make a decision BEFORE starting a fight... and you claim victory or suffer defeat based on that choice and your strategy and follow-through.
Hey look! PvP which doesn't revolve around F1 F1 F1 BSoE!
Everyone is better off except the PvP novices who simply BSoE when they start losing HP.
That's some pretty big talk for someone who cries like this in his very next post:
This is where you prove you don't PvP.
He isn't gone... he is getting friends.
Legit or not, he is gathering friends and will be back with yet another gate in, run to try to gank, BSoE... they do this in WAVES.
Your best move is to leave because if you don't they will gank/BSoE you out of there.
You just lost your hunting grounds and get no satisfaction for it.
The game should enforce living or dying by your decisions and make the game about PvP.
Yes, you can use BSoE to avoid PvP if you are unable or unwilling... but flag and you have made a commitment.
Don't get me wrong... gank squads will still exist... but they will have to be actually capable instead of automatic now.
ROFL.. then you claim I don't PvP or know anything about it.
You don't even know how to react or what to do with the stupidest gank method ever? Run in, hit you and BSOE? Gimme a break already.
Why don't you start a thread stating your exact problem, and let the community give you some ideas on how to deal with it, instead of crying about changing the rules?
What you want to do is ruin PvP so that the only time people flag is if they know they have the fight won, and that is just plain ignorant.
No, that's just good strategy.
"What the ancients called a clever fighter is one who not only wins, but excels in winning with ease.
Hence his victories bring him neither reputation for wisdom nor credit for courage.
He wins his battles by making no mistakes. Making no mistakes is what establishes the certainty of victory, for it means conquering an enemy that is already defeated.
Hence the skillful fighter puts himself into a position which makes defeat impossible, and does not miss the moment for defeating the enemy.
Thus it is that in war the victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won, whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights and afterwards looks for victory."
- Sun Tzu, The Art of War, Chapter 4.
That book is over 2500 years old by know. Read it, you might learn something.
The game should enforce living or dying by your decisions and make the game about PvP.
Yes, you can use BSoE to avoid PvP if you are unable or unwilling... but flag and you have made a commitment.
Don't get me wrong... gank squads will still exist... but they will have to be actually capable instead of automatic now.
With so many classes being fodder for the select few the devs have deigned to grant PvP ability, the gank squads will still be more than adequately automatic. A few members of the targeted party might survive, but you can be sure that your healers, mages and other support classes aren't going to be among them. If we're going to go to no-BSOEs and requiring EEs and such, they're going to be your early warning system. Proph and EE hit the floor, the gank party has arrived.
What you want to do is ruin PvP so that the only time people flag is if they know they have the fight won, and that is just plain ignorant.
No, that's just good strategy.
"What the ancients called a clever fighter is one who not only wins, but excels in winning with ease.
Hence his victories bring him neither reputation for wisdom nor credit for courage.
He wins his battles by making no mistakes. Making no mistakes is what establishes the certainty of victory, for it means conquering an enemy that is already defeated.
Hence the skillful fighter puts himself into a position which makes defeat impossible, and does not miss the moment for defeating the enemy.
Thus it is that in war the victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won, whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights and afterwards looks for victory."
- Sun Tzu, The Art of War, Chapter 4.
That book is over 2500 years old by know. Read it, you might learn something.
Learn that an XP party is nearly always going to die to a proper gank party? That's not rocket science, nor is it profound.
The game should enforce living or dying by your decisions and make the game about PvP.
Yes, you can use BSoE to avoid PvP if you are unable or unwilling... but flag and you have made a commitment.
Don't get me wrong... gank squads will still exist... but they will have to be actually capable instead of automatic now.
With so many classes being fodder for the select few the devs have deigned to grant PvP ability, the gank squads will still be more than adequately automatic. A few members of the targeted party might survive, but you can be sure that your healers, mages and other support classes aren't going to be among them. If we're going to go to no-BSOEs and requiring EEs and such, they're going to be your early warning system. Proph and EE hit the floor, the gank party has arrived.
naw, everyone will just drop a scout at the entrance and/or port spots nearest to their XP spot. Then they'll either SOE or log out.
No big deal.. except as it stands now, alot of XP parties will at least try to fight back some when the gank party rolls up.
What you want to do is ruin PvP so that the only time people flag is if they know they have the fight won, and that is just plain ignorant.
No, that's just good strategy.
"in war the victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won
Learn that an XP party is nearly always going to die to a proper gank party? That's not rocket science, nor is it profound.
Non sequitur. I wasn't talking about XP party vs. gank party, I was talking about the fact that "only time people flag is if they know they have the fight won" is plainly a good strategy.
U can guys can argue and argue and argue....and then argue some more...
Yet as I see it,NCS doesn't give a dime about it...
Nothing's gonna change because u think it's right or wrong...
I've read many posts with some great suggestions yet none of it ever came to the actual game...
I hope I'm wrong on what I'm about to say but....did u guys try out the new duelling system in PTS?
Somehow (and some might think of it as a conspiracy theory) I think we're moving to a more WoWish PvP system...where bsoeing will be useless anyway...
It will not be open PvP (well,not while XPing but open PvP would only exist in a siege,where a wide area IS considered a battleground) but a more likely consesual fight,where noone will lose XP... (1vs1 duel or party duel)
Reasons this came to my mind:
1. Since the last Chronicle update,no drops exist except if you're chaotic. (again this takes me further to a siege...while in the siege's battleground,one can go red and inevitably lose some of his/her equipment which anyone around him (friend or foe) can pick up...think of it as war loot)
2. New dueling system which gonna be officially introduced with the upcoming update... (btw...why else would we need a duelling system if it doesn't count on ur PvP score,and don't tell me it's there just for fun...it's like 1st testing if u would win in the actual PvP and then either flee (bsoe),or take the other guy out to gain that PvP point)
3. The third reason is actually the existence of this thread...why would they introduce BSOE and all the above I mentioned if they wanted to keep it an open PvP game?
They (NCS) certainly don't try to protect us legit players from losing XP to our XP-while-sleeping "friends"...if they did,they could do it much faster and easier than BSOEs and anything else they can come up with...
They could remove them from the game....but wait....that would mean they would lose a great % of their player base=lose a great % of money income...
So they just try to drive the game to a non-open-consesual-only-PvP kind of game...
Well that's what I think!!!!
I could be wrong though....
So they just try to drive the game to a non-open-consesual-only-PvP kind of game...
I don't think that's the point. The duelling system isnt replacing PvP, it's just replacing the arenas.
However, if they removed the XP loss from PvP deaths entirely, then that might open up all sorts of opportunities for PvP to happen. No loss but to ego for the loser, +1 PvP for the winner... why not stay and roll the dice?
PvP isn't replaced by duels ...... yet....
But let me ask u this...as it is now (that u lose xp on death on PvP),if someone kills u,would u go back for more if u weren't certain u wouldn't die?
I wouldn't...why would I wanna lose some more hard earned XP when I could simply find another spot... (I've passed the point of where my ego would drive me back with a group of clannies to take "revenge" long time ago!)
If someone beats me on PvP fair,then I have no problem with that....then again I haven't seen much fair PvPs/PKs...
All the 16yos (or less),flag on u,and when they die on a fair fight they bring some "support"....
All the "hard working sleepers" bring their "friends" tuned in on them or a higher lvl "hard worked" toon to teach ur arrogant-I-know-how-to-PvP-coz-I've-actually-played-my-toon butt a lesson on why not to pick on their "other toons"...........
**EDIT**
In addition to all of that, most times, a person can run and chug CP/Heal pots for the few seconds it takes to turn white again so that they could BSOE.
Learn to accept the fact that a BSOE is a win. It does not take a +1 to your PvP score for a fight to have been a victory.
It's not the BSOE's the drive me crazy, it's the cp pots... they reduce 1v1 pvp to a 'who has more cp pots' fight in to many instances.
Fun anecdote, i was in a duo on my BD witha lvl 79 archmage with full epics in hotsprings. We ran into a dwarf from our enemy alliance, anyway she BSOEs which i have no prob with. Abotu 10 minutes later she comes back with her golem buffed to the gills and proceeds to attack us. We won but I literally went through 2 dance cycles because she was spamming CP pots so fast there was a constant little gold ring around her.
Fun anecdote, i was in a duo on my BD witha lvl 79 archmage with full epics in hotsprings. We ran into a dwarf from our enemy alliance, anyway she BSOEs which i have no prob with. Abotu 10 minutes later she comes back with her golem buffed to the gills and proceeds to attack us. We won but I literally went through 2 dance cycles because she was spamming CP pots so fast there was a constant little gold ring around her.
ROFL.. if a person can spam CP pots faster than a mac'd out Archmage can deal damage.. then umm.. how exactly is a melee ever supposed to kill someone?
[censored] who needs BSOE - just remember to hold down the CP pot button. LOL
If you've more CP pots than a nuker has MP, a melee is in luck (because nukers can't carry many CPPs. Now against an archer... yeah. Melee's still have it rough with the CP Pots. Yet another poor implemented addition to the game.
But hey , if your <lvl 70 you dont even have to carry CP pots!
Why? Cause you will get 1 shoted anyways. Not much CP can do then! Guess in that case youd better stock up on those bsoe :P
Personally I think Bsoes are the work of the devil.
Someone previously made a great suggestion:
- Make Blesses scrolls of escape event only items.
- Create Greater scrolls of escape ( somwehere between a bsoe and a soe) and make them buyable at mammon with AA
- Scroll of escape , dont change anything
I have used BSOE to get a toon out after a bad pull. Since returning to game I haven't PvP'ed but before they added Hero's and such to the game I did. We used a LE to get our teams out after heavy PvP and we had reds, you exploded red back then and you always had a mage or Archer red in a PvP battle from taking healers down, you see noone could spam CP pots then. All talk about Carebear it does appear with Hero stats CP pots etc the game has a carebear attitude for PvP now. I have recently listen to a player shout in hero chat over and over how much fun PvP is, it would appear he had never really done so without reaching this status. I have talked to many now that have both old days and new to draw from and find this level of PvP not a challege as the old. So with all the other things added why even worry over a blessed scroll of escape.
Well, if the question is "The game has several flaws so why bother discussing any single one" then fine. Nothing gets discussed or changed. Yay.
Or you can allow people to discuss issues, one at a time which together form the greater whole with the hopes of plugging one leak at a time till the boat floats again.
This hole is BSOEs used by flagged players. My contention remainjs, if you flag, you have made a decision to fight for as long as the flag lasts, and that decision should disable your get out of jail free card.
I disagree, because the game has so many flaws and imbalances that just because a person is flagged does not mean they should have to die, or that they have accepted a PvP challenge from anyone in a 10 mile radius. There are just way too many times when getting out of a situation is the acceptable thing to do.
Bighands, we simply have a different philosophy. You present your side well. However, my philosophical belief is that if you are flagged, your own actions (preventable at that) have placed you into a voluntary hostile condition that has two time gauges for a reason (purple - temp, red - action-required) and one should deal with any and all related consequences of that action for as long as the condition exists.
We'll not see eye to eye, and so far (and as far as I can tell, it won't change) NCS sees it your way.
battle heal (Quick Heal Poptions) /spammable
cp pots /spammable
greater heal pots (GHP)
recharge pots (mp elixir)
super ultra greater higher battle heal (hp elixir)
all buff scrolls
BSOE
BREZ
who needs support class?
i recommend you find and download some fraps from one lionna archer "happythoughts" (littlepigs clan) i think that how is spelld name, just watch and take note, i swear that archer must use at least 3-5m worth of cp and quick healing pots per pvp encounter. is that where we want this game to be? just wondering what is the heal point per second rate there, i doubt a bishop can match that.
this game has become all about who spends more money on buying consumables.
we all need to be reminded this game require(d) skill/class dependency, and unless we demand that, it is going to fade away
tomorow new DD scrolls come out
tripple sonic slash (scroll)
backstab (scroll)
lethal blow (scroll)
rapid fire (scroll)
ice vortex (scroll)
and potions as well
potion of adventurer - temporarily spirit of adventurer posesses you, adventure passive skills now posess you, allows use of adventurer's class spefic scrolls
potion of duelist
potion mystic muse
potion of saggitarius
etc...
now, i'm sure MANY ppl will find them very very beneficial, and some even addictive. i could think of million ways where it would save my life in pve and pvp during lag spikes or during gank squads, but that is not the point, the point is - what is right and wrong to have.
allowing ppl to selfheal themselves for more hp/cp then a healer can heal is wrong
allowing ppl to gank and bsoe in the middle of combat is plain wrong.
nobody here is arguing that xp is not easy at high level. argument is about what should be allowed to use by what class, and i blive that class specific skills should not be allowed in scroll or potion form. in this particular case i admit i'm a lil addicted to bsoe myself, however i will support the idea of only white chars be allowed to bsoe.
bighands,
to answer your gank scenario, if you put a scout just like you said you would at entrance and you're xping deep in dungeon, and gank squad comes for your aoe group, all you need to do is have your untagged party in next room ready from the moment your scout noticed them, its all about pvp tactic, you was the one who mentioned the untag group that -4%, i dont see why you can not use that tactic on enemy, if they flag they wont be able to bsoe :D
A tank can get fear weapon as well.Pretty balanced imo.
not with zero range
The effect trigger with either hits made or hits taken.Thats number not power.Which means a melee fighter with fast atk speed has ALOT higher chance to trigger it.
Also melee chars with tons of HP get a better chance.