I have a SPS lvl 58 and a sorc 59 and i was wondering which is best armour for them. I dont PVP, solo with a lvl 60 SE in tow for her nice buffs and recharge.
I have got most of NM armour ready and waiting cause i thought Matk would be best, but ppl keep saying i need DC for the speed, surely a magic haste pot would help the speed and i already have tats for casting speed.
Pls help me as i am totally stuck on what to go with :(
You know what they say about fools and their money~
NM robes is the type of item you get if you want A crystals. If you can make it to A grade and managed to get enough Adena for NM in the process.... you have to know the game at some capacity. If you can make it to A grade and managed to get enough Adena for NM in the process and actually buy it... you are either an ebayer or an idiot.
dmg>cast speed
Per nuke. But cast speed will always out damage you.
Let's say NM gives you 15% M atk. I don't remember exactly how M atk is calculated.. but it's something around 15%. With nm... it's going to give something along the lines of +5-8% damage (m atk is not proportionately relative to damage). Lets say it adds 100-200 damage per nuke. This is your bonus for NM. This is what you chose to have instead of a cast speed set. You chose 5-8% damage over -2 wit and +15% cast speed over Avadon ( which is better than NM ). -4 wit and 15% cast speed over DC. That's 5-8% damage while attacking 20% slower. 30% if you want to compare it to DC.
Do the math. NM would have to add 20% to your damage to be better than Avadon. 30% to be better than DC. But it doesn't. It doesn't even add that much M atk. Not even half that. Even if NM added 15% damage.... you are still lowering your output by 15% by casting slower.
Let me give you an example of how your output will look between NM and DC. This is with NM actually adding 15% damage.... which it doesn't.
NM
1150 damage
1150 damage
DC
1000 damage
1000 damage
1000 damage
Do realize that the nuker in the cast speed set will get one extra nuker over you for ever two of your nukes. This is what it means to lower your wit on top of replacing the +15% bonus from cast speed sets. Do realize that even Tallum, which lowers Int by 2 would be infinitely better than NM.
Slower cast speed is slower kills. Slower exp. Slower body to mind (necros/sh).
The only instance where NM is worthy is if you can clear the gap between 2 shotting and 1 shotting mobs... and if you can't do it with Demon Robes... you would most likely not be able to do it with nm. In the odd chance that it actually does make the difference over demon ( know that it NM only adds slightly more m atk, the basic stats being the only thing making it better )... there aren't enough mobs in the game with those stats/ passives to justify carring NM with you... let alone using it as your main robe set.
If you still chose NM... you know what I think about you.
You will want to PvP at some point.Go DC.
IF you are rich enough you can buy both but i dont know why you want that considering demon set is alot cheaper.
NM robes is the type of item you get if you want A crystals. If you can make it to A grade and managed to get enough Adena for NM in the process.... you have to know the game at some capacity. If you can make it to A grade and managed to get enough Adena for NM in the process and actually buy it... you are either an ebayer or an idiot.
1ST off NM is Cheaper than DC (at least on Gustin it is) you can get a NM robe for 10mil and you can get the rec for as low a 500K (yes ive seen them for that .. i bought the rec and crushed it for crystals) DC Robes go on avg 30 mil on Gustin.. and i havent seen a rec in a long time.
And you can get a NM helm and Gustin for 35-40 mil if you look hard enough.. you can get the boots and gloves for 7-8mil if you look hard enough too.. (DC helm goes for 35-40mil, DC boots and gloves go for 10-15 mil) cause more ppl wear DC Robes than NM Robes.. so ummm that comment doesn't pan out.. DC Robes are more expensive than NM Robes..
Let's say NM gives you 15% M atk. I don't remember exactly how M atk is calculated.. but it's something around 15%. With nm... it's going to give something along the lines of +5-8% damage (m atk is not proportionately relative to damage). Lets say it adds 100-200 damage per nuke. This is your bonus for NM. This is what you chose to have instead of a cast speed set. You chose 5-8% damage over -2 wit and +15% cast speed over Avadon ( which is better than NM ). -4 wit and 15% cast speed over DC. That's 5-8% damage while attacking 20% slower. 30% if you want to compare it to DC.
NM is +8% M Atk +2 INT and -2 WIT.. and if your using a GMHP - which he says he will be using if you read the inital post and he has a Drag along SE im assuming with EMP 3. And if he has the right Tat setup (+4 WIT -4MEN he can take down mobs easy enough)
Do realize that the nuker in the cast speed set will get one extra nuker over you for ever two of your nukes. This is what it means to lower your wit on top of replacing the +15% bonus from cast speed sets. Do realize that even Tallum, which lowers Int by 2 would be infinitely better than NM.
If you read his inital post .. he doesn't PVP
Slower cast speed is slower kills. Slower exp. Slower body to mind (necros/sh).
If you read his inital post he has a SPS and a Sorc.
I know a 2 sorc who swear by NM Robes.. but the choice is yours to make.. you have a drag along SE.. so the Increase in P Def doesnt make a difference (you got heals when you need them) , and you using a GMHP so the casting spd difference is pretty much nil and NM Robes are cheaper than DC Robes.
And you already have some NM Robe stuff, so the choice is kinda obvious
If you can afford DC, go DC. You will cast much faster, so you'll do more damage over time, which translates into more xp over time.
The m.atk formula includes a square root in it, while the casting speed formula doesn't.
That means that a 15% m.atk increase translates into roughly 7% extra damage per hit.
The DC set will help you a LOT when you're in trouble also. If you have two mobs chasing you, with the DC you can kill one off completely before the other one gets to you. With a NM, chances are you'll be dead by losing your concentration a few times because both monsters are hitting you.
DC will enable you to get off one extra spell before the monster gets to you, which means you can hunt in harder spots, giving you much more versatility. If you want to do a specific quest, you can do it. If there's too many people at the spot where you two-shot monsters, you can move on to a higher one and still survive.
The only case where NM is better than DC is for people who flunked their math class :P
1ST off NM is Cheaper than DC (at least on Gustin it is) you can get a NM robe for 10mil and you can get the rec for as low a 500K (yes ive seen them for that .. i bought the rec and crushed it for crystals) DC Robes go on avg 30 mil on Gustin.. and i havent seen a rec in a long time.
And you can get a NM helm and Gustin for 35-40 mil if you look hard enough.. you can get the boots and gloves for 7-8mil if you look hard enough too.. (DC helm goes for 35-40mil, DC boots and gloves go for 10-15 mil) cause more ppl wear DC Robes than NM Robes.. so ummm that comment doesn't pan out.. DC Robes are more expensive than NM Robes..
NM is cheaper than DC: 0 relavence.
This is you not understanding why NM is cheaper.
NM is +8% M Atk +2 INT and -2 WIT.. and if your using a GMHP - which he says he will be using if you read the inital post and he has a Drag along SE im assuming with EMP 3. And if he has the right Tat setup (+4 WIT -4MEN he can take down mobs easy enough)
You are failing to realize that I took into account that the OP would have the right tats+ emp3 either way.
If you read his inital post .. he doesn't PVP
The OP is not going to pvp has 0 relavence. You do not understand that this is not an issue of pvp, but damage over time. The DC wearing nuker with the same tats/ buffs WILL CAST ONE EXTRA NUKE PER TWO OF YOUR NUKES. The same nuker will cast ONE EXTRA NUKE PER THREE OF YOUR NUKES. This is a big one. If you do not get this....
....
Slower cast speed is slower kills. Slower exp. Slower body to mind (necros/sh).
Relavence, 0. I was talking about nukers in general.... and I already said what classes suffer from b2m.
I know a 2 sorc who swear by NM Robes..
Then you know a fool.
but the choice is yours to make.. you have a drag along SE.. so the Increase in P Def doesnt make a difference (you got heals when you need them) , and you using a GMHP so the casting spd difference is pretty much nil and NM Robes are cheaper than DC Robes.
Yes. And you chose to hurt yourself. Congratulations.
And you already have some NM Robe stuff, so the choice is kinda obvious
Yes. Seal and sell the gloves and boots, sell the helmet, and crystalize the robes. If you can't buy DC set.. get Avadon.
NM is cheaper than DC: 0 relavence.
This is you not understanding why NM is cheaper.
Yes i do understand why NM is cheaper than DC.. it is because DC is a better all around armour for nukers.. i understand that... but you said and i quote:
If you can make it to A grade and managed to get enough Adena for NM in the process and actually buy it ... you are either an ebayer or an idiot.
That's making it sound like its hard to get the Adena for NM Robes.. its not hard to get money for A Grade you just have to work at it, i was just saying that DC is more expensive than NM so like i said before your comment about having money for NM vs DC isnt relavent..
The DC wearing nuker with the same tats/ buffs WILL CAST ONE EXTRA NUKE PER TWO OF YOUR NUKES. The same nuker will cast ONE EXTRA NUKE PER THREE OF YOUR NUKES. This is a big one. If you do not get this....
Yup i do, but his playstyle is different than your playstyle if he is going for more Damage over Spd. It's all about playstyle.
Then you know a fool.
Wow okay :o oh btw i know 2 fools then not A fool :)
Yes. Seal and sell the gloves and boots, sell the helmet, and crystalize the robes. If you can't buy DC set.. get Avadon.
Yup you could do that, a waste of AA IMO (if you do sell the NM set, id sell it unsealed and let another person re-seal it if they want it bad enough).. and you'e proven my point in the comment of "If you can't buy DC" about DC being more expensive than NM. And a NM robe is worth more as a robe than Crys btw :) so he'd be better off selling the robe than the crys.
But its all about playstyle, sure i have a nuker that all spd oriented and its great. But he asked about having a almost completed NM set to being with so I was just saying NM Robe isnt all that bad, but you have your opinons and i have mine. Hell i play a dwarf as my main, and it's all about saving money in my eyes lol
I have a SPS lvl 58 and a sorc 59 and i was wondering which is best armour for them. I dont PVP, solo with a lvl 60 SE in tow for her nice buffs and recharge.
I have got most of NM armour ready and waiting cause i thought Matk would be best, but ppl keep saying i need DC for the speed, surely a magic haste pot would help the speed and i already have tats for casting speed.
Pls help me as i am totally stuck on what to go with :(
I admit that I've never played either of those classes specifically. But most of the SpS that I know are/were in DC at A grade...and they didn't have a recharger/Emp3 in their back pockets at all times.
I would go for DC without even considering NM. Like others have already pointed out, higher casting speed means faster kills, especially since you have SE dualbox.
I have a lvl 64 SH, equipped with valhalla and DC robes, +4WIT +4INT and +4CON tattoos and I dualbox a prophet, not SE. I can 2 shot pretty much any 1x hp mob in my lvl range and oneshot many of them if I get herb of magic. I could do the same with NM robes too for sure, but at a slower pace. High casting speed has saved my bacon many times when I accidentally pulled more mobs than intended and that small decrease in chance of spell interruption with DC set helps a lot too.
Ok, I lied. I did consider getting NM, but then I realised that demon set gives more m.atk with only -1WIT. Sure at some point that +8% m.atk and +2INT will surpass the +4INT of demon set, but it will take a while and you will need som too.
Another thing to consider is your magic crit rate, which is a lot higher with DC than NM, especially when your pocket SE gets wild magic.
Get DC set, it is better than NM. And if you really want higher matk to kill certain mobs with one nuke less, get a Demon set in addition to it, it is **** cheap and gives about the same bonus to matk as NM. NM robe set looks great on female human mystics, but it is a bad set - the higher matk simply does not outweigh the very severe loss in casting speed compared to DC or Avadon. Heck, I'd even use majestic on a nuker before even considering NM (btw majestic is not all that bad if you have a buffer/healer main and go nuker sub, it is actually quite usable if you cannot afford a 2nd robe set).
The "NM is the same casting speed as DC when you pop a GMHP" is a weird argument. After all, the DC user can pop a potion, too (and usually will)...
And just look at the numbers when both pop potions:
SpS 75 with DC/+4 WIT/Acumen weapon has 750 casting speed, 976 with Acu 3, 1054 with Acu3/Zerk2
SpS 75 with NM/+4 WIT/Acumen weapon has 539 casting speed, 700 with Acu 3, 757 with Acu 3/Zerk2
worse for Sorc, 649/843/911 vs. 463/602/650
Well, it's your own decision. But it should be obvious there is a reason why nearly nobody uses NM (except for a few who maybe never really paid attention to how big the difference is).
NM makes sense if you're managing to run yourself and your SE out of MP even wearing it (because provided you run OOM eventually, casting speed is fairly irrelevant to overall exp speed), and on someone participating in AoE groups (where fast casting runs too high a risk of drawing aggro off the poles), or someone who is playing 'true solo' (i.e. with only potions and no emp/recharges).
Even then, it only is worthwhile for Sorcs and SpSs (any SH or necro who even looks at it should consider beating their head against a wall), but those are your classes of choice.
Between herbs, conversion weapons and recharge though, I doubt you'll manage to run yourself OOM.
Thx for replies, will most probably go DC by what you have stated.
Can i just say about the ebay, i have never once ebayed, i have played since beta on and off and worked **** hard on what i have got today. Just because ppl have A grade to wear when they turn 61 doesnt mean that they have ebayed.
I understand the cast speed argument... but Im gonna have to respectfully disagree with those supporters of DC as a sub-75 PvE robe.
Since hitting 75, Ive mostly lvled on silenos.. and on silenos, you save a lot of your SEs mp in healing if you go a set with more pdef, and faster cast speed. But before 75, there is no doubt that a NM set will help you lvl faster. Why? The best XP in this game for a nuker before 75 is FoTD at lydia. Sure... archer parties, AoE parties, and Pagans groups.. when set up right.. are better. But as a sps, your not going to be sought after a lot for any of these. Lydia spot is the best bet for easy to get, and quick XP. And as a sps, you will not be able to two shot all of the mobs at lydia without a DC set. At 74, you will be able to one shot the soldiers, and two shot all the other mobs with NM. With DC, your going to be 3 shotting some, which wastes quite a bit of mp. As a sps, you cant waste mp!
As a SH or a Necro, Im sure DC is better... but as a spellsinger PvEing, there is very little to no difference between 976 and 700 cast speed. The reason no one uses NM is because this game is a PvP game, and it is too expensive to afford both a PvE and a PvP set. It has nothing to do with DC being a superior PvE set. I agree that the argument that a NM set is as fast as a DC set with a pot is a weird argument. My argument is that a NM set with a pot is adequate cast speed, and that the mp regen, and extra damage far outweigh the ability to chew through your MP 2 minutes quicker. As a PvP set though, you would be very disappointed with NM. This is why NM is not very popular. Its not a reflection on the NM sets PvE performance. Its simply that most people in L2 put more priority on PvP, and it is really hard to pvp well in NM. Also, DC is noticeably superior to avadon in PvP, whereas NM is really only more superior over Demon for a SpS that is spamming mana regen (and hence the extra 4% mp regen makes a difference). Extra pdef is also really nice when your AoEing :p . The demon + DC option is much cheaper, and as such, you get more players choosing that option. Doesnt make NM a bad set...
I however would be hesitant to choose NM if you didnt have an accumen weapon, and werent prepared to spam cast speed pots. An extra 4% mp regen is also not to be coughed at.... when you have a self buff that increases your mp regen significantly, an extra 4% is very nice. Admittedly, mana regen is somewhat less useful before 70, but afterwards its a very nice skill.
Yup, you're right that if you ONLY want to PVE, NM is a viable option for a sps if you spam pots. I would be a bit hesitant though to use the argument that NM is a better set because at one single spot in game (which most likely is occupied all the time anyway) you can kill mobs with less nukes than with DC. Most of the time the difference in nukes won't be there, or only on one mob type in the area you are in. Heck, on my sorc I usually cannot tell the difference between clan hall emp1 and emp3 from a SE, mobs take the same number of nukes with both. I'd rather look at the overall picture and there I'd say DC is simply a much better "allround" set. You can do everything with it, and players who can only afford one set are IMHO better advised to use DC than NM. Sooner or later you will want to participate in a siege, or maybe the clan you're in makes enemies and you have to pvp whether you want to or not. And I personally felt much more happy with DC than with NM on my sorc when I tried both out even while doing my standard grinding (although of course for a sorc the casting speed problem is a bit more extreme). Using NM feels like going back to D grade days...
I totally agree... DC is a much better all round set. I was a cast speed set person until mid-60s. I wore the banana suite up until 40, karmian after that, and avadon after that. I bought my DC set first, and although I will sell my NM set trying to get an arcana robes set, I will never ever sell my DC. But the OP stated he didnt PvP, and only wanted to PvE (each to their own... to some degree, you dont contribute a lot to high lvl PvP till 70+ anyways, so a PvE set is prob the way to go). I cant bring myself to solo or duo without my NM set (except at silenos with nev.... a 78+ SS with a conversion sword is a good source of mp :) ). With mana regen going, I get 21-22 mp per tick standing (a bit more sitting...). 4% of that is 1 mp per tick. Thats an extra mob every 2 minutes just from the mp regen bonus.
With a NM set, you can kill higher XP mobs with the same mp. I started off killing the mobs around the spiders in FoTD when C4 came out. I slowly moved up. I must have gotten a very large majority of my XP in FoTD at lydia between 70 and 75. No way I would have wanted to do that without a damage set.
<-- converted cast speed addict... I would rather use a doom set than a DC set for PvE if it allows me to two shot slightly harder mobs, and prevents me from sitting for as long as possible. For PvP though, I wouldnt trade my DC set for anything :)
someone mentioned majestic robes not beeing unusable for nukers.
what about Majestic + acu weapon + 8INT tatoo
lets say for soloing SH (selfbuffs, pots, no box)?
You cant +8 int on a nuker. You can only +5 any single stat (without using armor bonuses that is).
Only good thing about majestic is the +mp regen... which for a sps is a good thing. But Id personally rather +2 int, +8% M attack, and +4% mp regen for PvE over -int and +8% mp regen. And for PvP, DC is a much much better choice than Maj.
Soloing on a nuker gets really painful. Feel free to do it.. but I suggest you look around for those elders out there that are looking for a group, and befriend one of them.
someone mentioned majestic robes not beeing unusable for nukers.
what about Majestic + acu weapon + 8INT tatoo
lets say for soloing SH (selfbuffs, pots, no box)?
Like he said, you can only +5 INT max.
I mentioned that Maj is not that bad when you already happen to have it. I use it on my sub because I already had majestic robes for my main class and I am still working on my DC set. I am lvl 74 sorc sub now, and I am soloing very well with the majestic set. Of course I would never tell a player with nuker main to go buy a majestic set - majestic is clearly a healer/buffer set. But it works, you have a much higher max mp pool (several hundred mp more than DC - that also means you get more mp back from the herbs than you would with DC), the mp regen bonus is very nice, the casting speed is not that much slower than DC (and far better than NM), and the -INT is not all that terrible. At the spot where I solo right now, I need the same number of nukes for the mobs whether I use DC or MAJ.
(acu3/zerk/emp3, sorc lvl 74, +4 INT, +4 WIT, SoM Acu)
MAJ: matk 1670, c.spd 829, mp 3310
DC: matk 1745, c.spd 911, mp 2958
NM: matk 2015, c.spd 650, mp 3041
demon set: matk 2033, c.spd 686, mp 2784
So maj has not that much lower matk than DC, somewhat lower casting speed, but more mp (and better regen). Interesting to see that for a sorc, demon set gives better matk as well as better casting speed than NM.
For a SH with acu3 pots, Acu weapon and without box for emp/zerk it looks like this with +5 INT / +4 WIT:
MAJ: matk 1012, c. spd 730, mp 3266 (emp3 herb: 1696 matk)
DC: matk 1052, c. spd 806, mp 2914 (emp3 herb: 1766 matk)
NM: matk 1202, c. spd 574, mp 3011 (emp3 herb: 2029 matk)
demon set: matk 1205, c. spd 602, mp 2754 (emp3 herb: 2034 matk)
I've always been a NM robe wearer. When I got my set, the NM robes were MUCH much cheaper than DC (and still are, although both are fairly cheap now). Until today, I hadn't ever seen stats comparisons between the various sets, and I must say, I'm amazed. I'll have to go plug in my own numbers and see what the results are. I've purchased all but the Arcana Boots for my Arcana robe set, but I'm almost half-tempted to sell my NM and get a Demon set until I can complete the Arcana.
I tried a NM set and frankly even on a spellsinger, the DC is better... yes even for PvE.
People often forget the runspeed.... running faster between targets is quite important for a Sps/SE pair...
You wil indeed run out of mana if you are doing it right, but the DC is still better because you will go to a spot you can two-shot... if you cannot two-shot it in DC with Empower, likely the nightmare isn't going to help.
The mana regen from nightmare is just plain pitiful in comparison to your output, and nuking for 130 damage more per nuke just doesn't compare to the cast speed.
Maybe is Matk werent' such a horrifyingly weak stat....
Ok, here's my numbers. 76 Archmage, +4 SOM w/Acumen, 52 Prophet buffs, 70 SE buffs, and Dance of Mystic (95% of the time I have all these when I play).
The Demon set is looking mighty inviting to me, until I can complete the Arcana set. The only drawbacks are a bit less MP (2 recharges from the SE fixes that) and a bit less pdef.
someone mentioned majestic robes not beeing unusable for nukers.
what about Majestic + acu weapon + 8INT tatoo
lets say for soloing SH (selfbuffs, pots, no box)?
Well, it's usable, say if it were a gift from a friend and you had nothing else to use. I'd certainly consider it over NM, just because I prefer to maximize speed on my SH.
Otherwise, I would say no to Majestic robes simply because of the cost of crafting/buying the gloves alone.
And Majestic subtracts INT, so why take a step forward only to take one back? DC doesn't negatively impact your INT or your WIT, and helps prevent interruptions. Really, let's not overanalyze this one.