not only they get better interlude skills, but their Fear skill works in pvp, our doesnt...well even in korea all prophets are buffpets, so noone can complain there about it
Sleep nerf :)
No attack skill :)
worse MP management :)
cov>pof :)
no good interlude skills :)
99% of us are boxes :)
yeah I'd agree to that.
and theres no real reason to play one live, they are boring as hell, buff up every one else, then sit on your *** for 18 minutes hope you get full regen (pre76).
After 76 you can get Arcadia mace with MP regen...which I can use buff up 5 people and reach full mp in about 8 minutes, and spam heals on a BH. And still be full at 20 min mark.
The problem is: they gave all the healers "invocation" and forgot to give it to PP's to! *smooth move NCsoft*, and there is no MP regen SA before you get to 76...while most of the grind is 61-76. then the true grind starts at 76 (I know that don't make sense just bare with it).
why don't you make the game fun rather then a boring grind session.
Arcana Mace and MP regen SA for a Prophet? Not sure on what server ya play, but I cant efford a Arcana Mace, nor to put a SA on it. And by efford I mean both ways of efford, the weapon itself, and the maintaince.
Even before 76 its not a big deal buff up 5 ppl, I'll do that and dont need to sit. But anything above 5 gets tricky. Just get a maj robe, dont overdo it with -men and try to avoid BDs and Acumen SA. The faster ya buff, the lesser ya regen. Ill rather let the macros run 4mins and fight 16, then buff in 2mins and fight 8min, sit 10min.
i know more live SEs and more SEsubs than live prophs and prophsubs, so its proly not so bad w/ SE
Numeroan, i would give up my power in oly for some nice skills for pvp/pve anytime
and what do you want as gladi, if proph wouldnt be there, you would own everyone maybe except summoners
we get owned by some classes as well and nukers dont fight in open oly anymore, so who are we supposed to kill
WCs have all the nice pvp skills and getting more and more, and their VR buff, CoV buff make them even better in pve
and ill be crying about it until **** ncsoft doesnt repair our class even tho they dont care
It's broken since C1, so there must be a lot of work to get them back in the hands of only real players.
About WC vs pp.... olympiad fights including a pp are always so so so so so boring to watch... it should be fixed too :)
Yesterday I watched a fight almost as long, but it was DA vs SK and it was a **** good show
If your a low lvl prophet use a weapon whit invocation SA for full grps,pop mp pot to help you regen enough mana.In interlude the reuse time of those is reduced to 5 min,thats should do the trick for any prophet having problems.
the mana problem isn't the big issue... the big issue is the total and utter lack of skills (not buffs) to use the mp on <_<
mana burn sounds so good, but in a pvp fight you'd be dead 5 times over before you can empty someone's mp... erase is nice but mine rarely lands... root? lmao... not even gonna bother talking about that.
So I end up being someone in robes that can't do damage, has gimpy heals, and has 200mp before a fight (mmm 3 battle heals/2 mana burn ftw?) Warcriers cry about their drains costing too much, but they forgot to mention that they have tons of mp even after buffing... enough to be able to buff 2 more groups...
seriously, who wants a prophet in pvp? To buff ressed up people? Nope, noble buff takes care of that. To mana burn? mmm i might be able to take out 1 person's mp... then not be able to kill the person lol and still die to that person... Root? lol @ root's land rates, lvl 74 + SoM Acu vs. 6x TH (lowest mdef in game) with mental shield: not even 50% and rate... now imagine people with boss jewels and much higher mdef... I tried to root a 78 eva saint: 100 tries, 0 lands. Yes ONE HUNDRED. That's 6900mp, i.e. my whole MP bar + mp regen. Go find a lvl 6x nuker and with 1k+ mdef and mental shield I'll still get slept and silenced at about 50% rate.
Now WC get gate chant at 78, yet another AMAZING pvp skill to have (for those that don't know what it is, it's a party summoning skill), while prophets 2 more olympiad skill... LOL Spell Turning: 150 range... i'm dead b4 i reach that range in pvp. Magic Immunity, yea cool... wait NOONE debuffs a prophet... they're too useless in pvp already lol, not worth anyone's time to debuff. It might be useful against hero fear and grandeur, but again so what if I resist it? :/
prophets are the best gank buffers... but then always get left behind in the actually pvp, because:
1) they're too slow at running to the spot, or
2) the prophet has an alt that they use for pvp... lmao
in mass pvp, the only thing I hear from people are:
"BTB/BTS pls"
"3 buffs pls" (haste, focus, death whisper... the ones that they can't get from clanhall)
"BUFFS RUNNING"
"ok guys buff up" 30seconds later "ok let's go" <_<
.... ... ............ please give me some positives about prophets :/ Olympiad itself is not a reason since if you're not in the top clan of server you won't get hero ever... I guess winning matches in olympiad can help you get the hero comp items, but seriously.. who gives a **** about enchants? Oh to enchant my gear higher so I can... mmmm.... get more enchants? LOL
Root? lol @ root's land rates, lvl 74 + SoM Acu vs. 6x TH (lowest mdef in game) with mental shield: not even 50% and rate... now imagine people with boss jewels and much higher mdef... I tried to root a 78 eva saint: 100 tries, 0 lands. Yes ONE HUNDRED.
WoW, your unlucky dude. Even before I was 75 I had no probs rooting ppl. I remember when my party was fighting against the current Titan Hero. Good jewels, Mental Shield and Magic Barrier up, and root landed.
Well, tbh, I was the guy where the root landed. Too bad that the Hero 2H sword reflects debuffs...
yes prophet sucks, they are one of the few classes that kill everything that moves in olly, lvl 65 prophet crits me(im 77) for 1k with bow, while we both fully buffed(pp,sws,bd) hes the only buffer wanted to most places(wc lack some very good defence/offence buffs: zerk,hw,unholy rezis)
at 78 its still good. both doomcryer and hierpohant can just buff up , change to heavy+duals/focus dagger and swing away with others(and i know they do good, often party with batle prophets)
so try playing se... for defence we have like.... root.thats all, slow heals, bad mp regen, no trance, for most top places we are taken only as rechargers and only if no EE can be fount at the moment.
i still regreat not making pp/wc main and se on sub...
SEs have a similar situation to PP, I'm not exactly flaming on SE's overpoweredness here...
A Prophet with heavy and DD weapon, sounds good? Wait.. a mega 500patk and slow attack speed o.o /sarcasm... prophets cannot deal damage in pvp, they are just mosquito bites to every single class. Heavy is nice to avoid dying as fast, but if heavy armour was so great why do heavy armour classes (except maybe tanks)...etc all die so frigging fast anyway? So instead of being 1shot, i'm now a mega 2 shot kill <_<
SE's actually have a reason to level up all the way through to 75+: heals, recharge. It's less than EE's amount of skills that level up, but you have 80% of the fighter DD buffs and 80% of the mage buffs too where as EE has like a couple. But that's where the problem begins, you get 80% of your best skills at 56, get 62 for wm1 and you're set for almost all buffbot requiring situations <_<
for prophets it's lvl 56... would people rather have greater might3 (10% patk) or not have it and box a 56 prophet OOP and get the prophet's share of xp? mmm tough choice... pagans is the saving grace for prophets in pve, because of the need of resist unholy, holy wep and zerk is a nice little addition. But between 40->72+ meh who groups prophets nowadays? :/
if you give prophets a drain... they would be on par with WC in terms of pvp usefulness... actually no, prophets won't have the mp to use the drains... and btw SE's hit alot harder than prophets, so if you have your own buffs you can hit just as hard if not harder than a prophet. Also greater heals are much better than prophet's heals from lvl35... it may cost about the same mp for each hp healed, but you only need to use the skill once to heal for up to 3x more than 1 prophet heal, that's alot of time saved and time you could use to hit the opponent a couple times more. And SE's roots land abit better since they have emp and higher matk...
To the guy who said I was unlucky with roots.. notice you were like "and I landed root! (woot)" *mini celebration behind the screen*... lol a root is considered an acheivement for prophets whereas trance/sleep and in interlude fear is considered a spammable good landing crowd control spell.
I don't even care if you take away some of prophets buffs in return for some pvp oriented skills... It was ok at first when the damage difference between mages with fighter setup and real fighters was about 2:1.... but now with all fighters being boosted so much with new weapons and skills, battle prophets (and other battle mages) just didn't get nearly as much of a boost as the fighters did... Another thing is that all of a prophet's advantage can be so easily given to someone else, from a lvl 56 buffbot prophet... and get btb/s 6 from clanhall lol (you won't know how frustrating it was b4 I got btb6... buffing btb5 on someone and it not being buffed <_<)
its always funny to hear how prophets wanna be a badass damagedealer, or any healer/buffer class.
can all fighters please get healing skills and uber self-buffs?
so you want a prophet to be a healer+buffer+DD and a damage dealer just a DD?
god damit if you wanna DD either box your PP with a DD or reroll/sub/make an DD alt.
stop the whining.
oh and no, prophets are not unwanted in PvE. i never ever had a problem finding groups for my prophet.
I dont wanna be dd, i dont want any dd skills, i want to be useful in pvp.
i am not healer.
i am wanted in highend pve only if there is not covcryer available and there is VR source available etc etc
your prophet is 61, we are not talking about 6x pve/pvp
always funny to see some wannabe pwning dd to be scared that some stupid buffbox could do something against him in pvp
not only they get better interlude skills, but their Fear skill works in pvp, our doesnt...well even in korea all prophets are buffpets, so noone can complain there about it
Lets just face it - if we got this word of fear that worked in PVP - we would own EVERYONE - MUHAHAHAHAHAHA. Just think - live prophets would actually have more of a purpose once again. Still sucks though that we don't get the skill enhancement once again....
and for those that play their prophet that buffs and then sits for 18 minutes - you are in the wrong party - make sure you have a recharger in your party or hunt in spots that drop the herbs - does wonderful for making your task a bit more bearable.
I can personally buff up to 7 people, including myself, in party and still DD with a melee weapon... provided that I don't need to run alot or my MP won't regen. I might need to use a couple MP pots, but I don't mind that... if it's a 9man party I HAVE to sit <_< my damage is insignificant compared to DDs would have have much better use with the recharges.
Again let me remind you of why people use buffbots. There 2 choices for groups to make when they need a buffer (assume high level group 70+):
1) Get a live prophet with greater might 3, he will take up some xp.
2) Get a 56 prophet buffbot without greater might.
... it's not a tough choice really: greater might3 gives 10% patk........ that doesn't cover the xp a prophet takes up at all...
yea Pagans groups need prophets, but what about from lvl 40-70+? I'm supposed to solo?
Now let's look at warcriers:
40-58: it sucks for them too.
58-68: They get vr, and focus and guidance. Focus1 is actually the biggest gain on crit rate for the buff, so focus2 and 3 aren't too big a deal, guidance is useless if you just choose your hunting spots well. Now, with vr all they need is a group consisting of: The WC, SwS, BD.... and the go kill away in a cata. The WC can toggle warcry at times to deal ALOT of damage, sometimes more damage than the SwS/BD.
For prophets they NEED vr... or in the case of archer/nuker groups, a recharger... so no small groups for prophets, which contributes even more to prophets not getting groups because the larger the group the harder it is to form it and then keep it going.
I don't want to DD in pvp (actually it would be nice, since WC can effectively DD in pvp either with warcry or using drains), I want *something* to do in pvp... I don't want to be using my lvl 30 (rez) and 35 (heals) skills in pvp. Root is a waste of time, mana burn is good for 1 target then you're out of mp b4 they are, since you just buffed as well. Soooo wut are we supposed to do? Yup, cannon foddering.
I think a few emergency buffs that help temporarily (thinking 10, 20, 30 seconds) bolstering a team mate's stats would be nice - just you know... a PvP-relevant emergency buff that can't be done in town by a 56 buffbox. :p
I think a few emergency buffs that help temporarily (thinking 10, 20, 30 seconds) bolstering a team mate's stats would be nice - just you know... a PvP-relevant emergency buff that can't be done in town by a 56 buffbox. :p
yea like "Celestial Shield" that bishops got instead? :/
Then OLs get their Ally Invincible buff at lvl 80, and Ally CoV...... seriously why play a prophet anymore? :/
Since prophets rule end-game (Oly) whining by them is not heard by this dead body at their feet.
only 1 hero per month, and the top alliance always gets it due to ungodly stacked equipment...
Also... why do you care so much about olympiad? I know hero is nice, but tbh it doesn't directly affect your gameplay outside of olympiad and in pvp u'd still get owned 100% of the time...
Ive always been kinda ****** that WC get better buffs in the long run that prophets. Prophets re pure 100% buffers. At leats WC get other stuff that let em do something in pvp. Why should the pure buffer get inferior buffs to a buffer/healer/fighter/nuker hybrid?
For prophets they NEED vr... or in the case of archer/nuker groups, a recharger... so no small groups for prophets, which contributes even more to prophets not getting groups because the larger the group the harder it is to form it and then keep it going.
I will never understand peoples obsession with archer/nucker groups. All the archers groups ive been in, the xp sucked, alot. For some reason the rest of the people thought it was good xp. Maybe I just got unlucky.
Im level 69 and im getting 2% per buff round without a single real DD in party when I go out with my clannies. PP, SE, BH and BD.
My point is, if your a PP, make your own parties with the right combiantion of classes. -_- the mana using classes, you dont need em anyways. Im sure someone out there has a OOP SE they can bring, or bring a live SE with good weapons to be nice. Yes I know the WC could replace the PP and SE, kinda... Put if you hunt in the right spots, all those other buffs the PP has come in handy. And the SE can actually heal if something gows wrong. Live PP + SE >>> WC.
gladiator owns everyone except summoners and prophets in oly and you will get boosed a lot in interlude and you are crying that bufpets own you
prophets get owned by evasion chars, wc, some tanks etc
and who cares, i dont play L2 just for oly, i would trade my power in oly for usefulness in pvp or endgame pve anytime
and as someone said, oly is about trading points anyway, and hero is decided among ppl of the same class, so that i own you doesnt mean you will not be hero, it just means that i will proly have more points than other classes, thats all
and prophet needs 3times more equip than other classes to do something in oly
gladiator owns everyone except summoners and prophets in oly and you will get boosed a lot in interlude and you are crying that bufpets own you
prophets get owned by evasion chars, wc, some tanks etc
and who cares, i dont play L2 just for oly, i would trade my power in oly for usefulness in pvp or endgame pve anytime
and as someone said, oly is about trading points anyway, and hero is decided among ppl of the same class, so that i own you doesnt mean you will not be hero, it just means that i will proly have more points than other classes, thats all
and prophet needs 3times more equip than other classes to do something in oly
when u made ur prophet i bet u know that prophet is a class not for pvp and only is good for buff friends and overbuffs enemies, so why do u come cry about prophet is not good for pvp in interlude? ncsoft alright made prophets cheat the olympiads with this mana burn that make the fights very boring and sad
No, when I made prophet i thought its support class with great buffs which everyone will appreciate, with ability to heal and do some decent dmg cuz of the buffs, i thought that with those buffs ill be able to do something in pvp, pve, everywhere.
Everyone says that L2 is PvP game, and i shouldnt cry that prophet is useless in pvp?...In pvp CoV>>>>>>>PoF. Fast buffing of whole group > 5minutes buffing and beeing oom until next buffs. Overbuff ppl in pvp o.O. WC is buffer like me, and see what he has, stun, drain, debufs, CoV, party summon in interlude etc etc.
Why is manaburn cheat? Isnt cancel, stun, silence, para, lethal strike and many other skills cheat as well?
butthurt cuz some nonfactor buffpet can own you in oly?
Prophets were not 'buffpets only' in the beginning of the game.
I don't think anyone wants to 'pwn up' in PvP, but as the most otherwisely crippled buffer, prophets deserve the best buffs, but NCSoft just seems to love greenies.
Owning the olympiad is not helpful when the actual power of a character makes so little difference in who actually becomes a hero (point feeding yay), and when you are pretty much expected to have to be 78/75 to do anything there (80/75 soon for sure), as there are a whole 77 levels before then, in which prophets fall short on vital buffs.
Every class should be useful in PvP - it doesn't need to pwn, but for example, a single healer with full buffs should be able to outheal damage from a single damagedealer with full buffs (except of course with 'emergency' skills like frenzy), a buffer should not have to buff up and sit down (more short-term emergency buffs would be bloody nice, as well as some more CC/debuffs which was traditionally a healer's job), etc.
I don't think 'any class should have an active role in more than one way of PvP' is too much to ask. Especially of a support class which people did not make to 'pwn' people it is ludicrous to expect that their true calling in PvP should be doing just that - solo. Without supporting a single other person.
As you're probably well aware, armoured mystics make perfect sense in Lineage 2 - of the thirteen mystic classes, only four (Sorcerer, SpS, SH, Necro) do not learn any sort of armour mastery other than robes, all other nine learn light, and of those, three heavy.
Buffs should be fixed, but that's quite difficult at the current state of the game, so unlikely to happen.
Why not forget the complaints against WCs? It's not really the fundamental problem of a Prophet. The fundamental problem for a Prophet is that, while good buffs are essential to the game, most buffer classes don't get much else to do. Sure, they are a support class. That doesn't mean they should only get 1 min of activity out of every twenty minutes of play.
First of all, resistances prophet have make huge difference when it comes to mages on another side. Prophet buffs make it impossible for single attacker to kill anyone unless you are critting every single nuke/shot. With a healer on your side, you are more than good taking 2 or 3 attackers.
As for prophet root - it lands more or less. Not every single time, of cause, but quite enough time to disable one or two melee characters in the middle of pvp.
Block shield is a potent debuff that makes great difference for melees/archers on your side.
And block wind walk is most uber slow-down skill. If you have not felt it once on youself, just try it once - you'll know how turtles feel.
Isn't it enough? Nope. You have Erase that is the first skill making all summoner classes screwed in pvp. You have heals, yet not uber, quite decent addition to CP potions and efforts of dedicated healers. You have PR that makes you ideal port spot checker. You have mana burn that makes a LOT of troubles for enemy healers.
About the topic of the post itself.
I guess it's true taht in end lvls wc>pp but you guys should remember taht orc mystics are hell to lvl, wc takes too long to get the best buffs for a warrior party. Without talking that you will also need to use robe to buff everyone for a long time, so no pvp or you will be the first to die... The truth is wc is good only after 56+, till there you will REALLY need friend to lvl otherwise forget. I guess what unbalanced the buffers was actually the subclass system, once i can see that many people is subing wc. But even an wc or dc can't do much after a buff round, the buffs just cost too much mp. Still a buffer class not a dd one.
no1 wants resist buffs when they have all the other buffs and have no room left for the resist buffs.... maybe elemental protection, but the other ones are a no-no with bd/sws in group.
block wind walk, cool, yea... it's nice... 70mp... i have 200 maybe 300 mp after buffs... ok.
My heals are like: "400hp healed, 400hp healed, 5k damage taken, 400hp healed, 1k damage taken, 400hp healed, 400hp healed, 5k damage taken, out of mp (after buffing), oh wait i was dead from that last crit."
Human mages run the slowest in game, I know how a turtle feels.
Erase doesn't land all that well, I usualy spend about 200mp just to erase one pet... and i'm about out of mp.
Mana burn is nice, but against any DD, i'm dead WAY before i empty someone's mana, and in mass pvp i don't have mp to burn even 1 person after buffing.
BTW, bishop has: MASS block wind walk, MASS block shield, MASS mana burn.... those are much more effective than prophet's single target, slow cooldown skills. And with people getting 1-2shot everywhere, bishops are abandoning battle healing (which eats up mp fast), healing only if the person is safe and not being hit and then using mass rezes and keeping him/herself alive, so they have mp to use these aoe skills.
You should try playing a prophet in pvp, you'll get just as frustrated as us prophet, when you're sitting there out of mana, with multiple people yelling at you to rez the bishop or to heal then or to buff them.
Just as an illustration of how much people hate to play prophets: Bartz top clans' prophets:
Uprising - Nausicaa (basically quit, mostly boxed), Zuan, Shido (dun think he plays much, but i see him on his sub more than prophet)...
TD - Oriena (plays sub most of the time, since CoV buffers have taken all the buffer spots)... o_0 I dunno any other prophet lol (xxxBrianxxx is joining them, but I'm a little skeptical about his legitness)
... well just look there, 2 top clans have basically 5 prophets, of which only 1-2 play their prophet mains...
Even prophets prefer playing their subs and get a PoF buffbot to give them buffs. Prophets do have something to do in pvp, but they're insignificant in the outcome of a battle.
No because that would gimp SEs permanently...
I had thought about a buff that would give mp as you hit mobs... kinda like vr, but mp leeching instead of hp. That would help a prophet get mp back... but I haven't thought deep enough and I have a feeling that it wouldn't work out.
I think prophets should get "clear mind" passive tho, so they can regen mp faster :/ it's not fair that OL+WC+Bishop can give out 90% of a prophets buffs to an entire alliance with a fraction of a prophet's mp costs or time it takes to buff.
Another thing with the heavy armour arguments people keep throwing at me... do you know how "heavy" heavy armours are? I can barely carry a heavy set and robe set and a little ss and like 20 cp pots lol
Prophets, among other things, need a passive that greatly amplifies MP regeneration while engaged in combat - like clear mind, just stronger. :p
... how about.... mana burn => mana steal? o.o
make it burn less but you gain some mp back (obviously you need to remove mp costs of the skill) it would have a longish cast time... like 15-30s?
To be honest I think it's a little overrated. Advanced Block, BtS 6 and resist shock in the same buffset is still plenty unique buffs (more good unique buffs, actually, than any other class has IMHO).
But that aside, VR doesn't solve the problem, it makes it worse.
up DoT damage for sure
but I think the drains should stay as it is <_< it's a heal + nuke combined I think it's fair that the cost is higher.
Plus I'm pretty sure Orc drains give the highest % of HP absorbed (I heard it was 100% but it's prolly not that high o.o)
I forgot if I posted it on this thread but I'll post it again:
- give prophets mana STEAL (replace mana burn o.o)
actually replace mana burn with mana steal for all the healer/buffers... much more useful for the one casting it, and less annoying for the opponent.
Mana steal would drain less mp than mana burn, but would give like 50% of the drained mp back to the caster. The present cooldown on it seems long enough to not be a spam skill (plus it would be better to not drain if the caster is full mp anyway) it also gives the caster an idea on if the target is empty when he starts draining only 10mp or something)
You as a PP are a buff charater and not healer. This means you have the time to regen before adding you needs to the group. Healers must do both, thus had a stronger need for more mana and thus not causing long group downs for healer regen. It makes no sense to give the PP invocation built on this thought.
It makes no sense to make class which buff once in 20minutes and does nothing the rest of time (which is what is proph supposed to do). So we suggest to give prophets something to do in that 20minutes (debuffs, shorttime buffs w/e) and for that proph will need mp cuz we are usualy oom after buffing group, so we suggest to give proph either invocation/mpVR w/e would help us.
Yup, and EE and SE players a free reroll to a class of their choice, at the level which they had on their EE/SE.
?!?!?!
THE PROPHET CAN'T HEAL. They don't even get greater heal. For that sacrifice they should have the widest selection of buffs.
VR doesn't make up for damage in parties now with crits ignored. Clarity isn't huge, it just helps a little. Specifically, a prophet can buff and play a little support if it could buff itself with clarity.
The prophet also can't recharge.
EE - Heal, Recharge, Agility
SE - Heal, Recharge, Empower
Prophet - Wider selection of buffs
Seems like a balanced setup. One supports evasion DDs, one supports Nukers, one supports other melee.
I think in exchange for this, the EE/SE should pickup gr might/shield. The real key is getting the prophet the VR since it is a useless healer along with Clarity since it can barely keep a 9 man party buffed. It would solve all the prophet complaints, boost the EE/SE a little, and still maintain the balance between the buffers...except for the WC...which should just be deleted.
WC and OL get agility too.. its not a unique EE buff (not that you specifically said it was, but you seem to be suggesting that EEs get groups in part due to agility... which is simply not true). As an EE I dont want greater might or greater shield. I want unique skills/buffs (more skills) that make me wanted in a group. Giving everyone similar buffs doesnt help the situation, it worsens it.
Wouldnt it make more sense to give prophets a self-buff clarity.. or a clarity toggle (earlier than 78)? And giving prophets VR... don't get me wrong.. prophets deserve an equally desirable semi-unique buff, but seems to be me it would be nice if it wasnt a buff that is one of the big reasons SEs/WCs get groups (sub 78).
The WC buffs faster, the elves have recharge and real heals, the orc can dd along with buff and is inherently better at it.
I merely selected agility as a dd buff comparing those three. Again, I don't include the orcs because I find them grossly overpowered. Though maybe you are correct in thinking this will do the same to the prophet. A self-buff clarity is an acceptable alternative though. I think it should start at level 40, however.
So you want to be the one and only buffer to get parties, you want to pwn everyone in PvP and you want to kill everything solo in PvE...maybe you want a 100% success rate root skill and bow masteries so that you don't need to run to the enemy?
Do you want craft skills to so that we can remove dwarfs to so that the one and only class in the game will be a PP?
Give me a break...PP are just fine the way they are now. EE need clarity to get in parties and SE need VR to get in parties.
If you have so many live healers that you can always pick freely, that's good for you. Needless to say, however, EE with EE buffs and recharges > Bishop in pole groups and raids as well as groups with a tank. Of course though, in critical situations, you want them both. There are some special spots where a bishop is preferable, but they are few and far between.
Major heal is what you do most and what you are expected to do, but of course it still has a great amount of useful secondary skills.
SithMaster, there are also probably people who say the Paladin class should be deleted. I hope nobody takes such talk of deleting classes seriously. As far as as your comment about Orcs being overpowered - they are meant to be the race of physical power, but they do have limitations and drawbacks, just like every other race/class. For both OLs and WCs, those limitations include, but are not limited to, the mana cost of every cast, be it a buff, heal, offensive cast, debuff, whatever.
Mana cost on buffs for WCs are high? Are you duoing for some reason or joking?
ETA: The reasonable buffs from WC for a party, regardless of its size, cost 2318 MP at top level (Greater Shield/Might, VR, Focus, DW, Guidance, Haste, Acumen, MBarrier, Shield, Might).
For prophets it's a little more complex... but it can be broken down by saying there is one set of buffs that goes to everyone (Windwalk, Shield, MBarrier, BtB), one that goes to those hitting things (Might, DW, Guidance, Focus, Haste), and one that goes to casters (Acumen, Zerk, Concentration, Bless the Soul). Also one Greater Shield or Might for everyone, depending on what they are doing.
The basic set (WW etc.) costs 181 MP to cast per person in group. Greater Might/Shield cost 69 each, so add that up to a convenient 250 MP base for every person.
The attack set costs 218 per person in group.
The caster set takes 221.
The prophet is meant (see the heavy armour masteries?) to be an attacker hybrid, so we start from there:
689 MP for self-buffs. This is cheaper than for the WC.
Now let's try a few group set-ups.
Duo with a summoner: 689 MP for self-buffs, 689 for the summoner, and 315 or so for the servitor (thank god summoners have so many self-buffs...), we arrive at 1693.
Four people group with Tank, DD, DD, and yourself: 2093.
And that's where it stops. After that, five people or more, even one servitor in a smaller group, even one hybrid class that can hit and cast in a three person group, and you're dang close or over.
In short, in a trio a WC is about as cheap as a PP, anything above, they are usually cheaper. Please, don't complain about MP costs. The other people in your class would love to not only have the MP spare to cast a drain or two but actually have a drain.
I do duo. Mine always end up with almost no mana left over. Of course, if you're buffing a large party, they are better than a prophet. But my real point is, they aren't gonna be doing large amounts of healing, CC, DoTs, drains, etc, after they buff. They do have their limitations and drawbacks, just like every other class and race.
That's your own fault - but the break point which should be at a five man group (half a party) is not there, but at a three man group in all practicality (see bottom post of last page for some numbers, and those numbers are assuming the prophet is not doing his job and giving his admittedly quite awesome situational buffs).
And seeing how you have higher MEN, I can say with certainty that you can regenerate the 2k for top l level buffs easily with MP to spare for some basic CC while fighting on an orc. A prophet can't ... and here they are supposed to be the 'ultimate buffer', since that's their total specialty.
OK. Yes, I could sit my WC down and regenerate mana fairly quick. But, I don't, I choose instead the play style of having the WC assist my Destroyer in doing damage.
To my way of thinking, WCs are almost as specialized as a Prophet in buffing. They are not quite as limited, of course. But, unlike say, SEs at a pole party, nobody is going to really expect either a WC or a PP do to much healing, just buff.
My prophet can regenerate all her MP bar about 1.5 times every 20 minutes standing up and fighting (provided she is in robes, in heavy it's more like 2 1/2 times). She has 2555 MP.
Which means you'd have about 1k MP spare to do the odd sleep or fear... not at all bad.
You might be almost as specialised as a prophet in buffing if you didn't have drains, soul cry, and freezing flame.
OK, my WC renegerates he MP about 10 - 12 minutes into a buff cycle, standing. and fighting. We have the other skills you talk about. But they also have a high mana cost, especially relative to the amount of damage they do. The mana cost is sufficiently high that a WC is going able do a few of these, but not a lot. If a WC is hunting in a field with herbs and 3 or 4 mobs hit the WC at once in heavy armor, the drain is going to help keep the WC alive. I that respect, the WC is a little better off than the Prophet. But the mana costs is high enough, coupled with the mana cost of the buffs, that a WC is going to end up doing mostly buffs, and the other things are secondary. To my mind, the real difference is that a WC, by it's very nature, will generally end up doing some DD work in between buffs.
Also, I'll say it again, WCs have mostly buffs for melees. In a group with other types, especiallly nukers, it's preferable to have other buffer classes in the party, I would think. (Well, OK, lvl 78 COV buff is said to be uber for archers, but that is really out at end-game.)
I agree, sleeping is very much possible. As it happens, it is useful to have this available at times when soloing. I will be careful not to overuse it for mana management. But I am glad that Orc sleeps weren' t nerfed.
SithMaster, one other thought while I was running errands this morning. My mains are a Destroyer/WC combo. I once mentioned the idea of going to AL to my clan leader. He responded that a party needs a "true tank" to go there (i.e, one with Hate/Hate Aura skills, maybe even the Mass Root or other skills that a Destroyer does NOT have). I hope you understand my point.
SithMaster, there are also probably people who say the Paladin class should be deleted. I hope nobody takes such talk of deleting classes seriously. As far as as your comment about Orcs being overpowered - they are meant to be the race of physical power, but they do have limitations and drawbacks, just like every other race/class. For both OLs and WCs, those limitations include, but are not limited to, the mana cost of every cast, be it a buff, heal, offensive cast, debuff, whatever.
No, I've been the guy touting that Paladins are the strongest tank since...Beta. OL is acceptably powerful, but WC needs an increased mana cost. If a prophet and a WC both buff a party to the same extent, they should both have around the same leftover mana. This is not the case.
I'm not TRULY suggesting the class be deleted, that is tongue-in-cheek. They do need to be weakened however. CoV is absurdly overpowered, and the class is already incredibly strong. I would consider a drastic reduction or even removal of that skill to rebalance it. Maybe move it up to 80 so WC has the best prophecy, but it comes later than the others.
My WC, in Avadon robes, typically has ~ 200 MP left after a buff round. Starting point is, if I recall, ~ 2200 - 2300. How could they make the mana cost any higher?
I'm not quite sure I agree with what you're suggesting about COV either. For one, I don't generally like the idea of doing something negative to one class to balance classes; I like the idea of positive solutions much better. Two, CoV is said to be awesome buff; inspite of that, to my knowledge, 9 months into the game, WCs are one of the least played classes - there is a reason for that.
I am not averse to shoring up Prophets or any other of the buffer/healer classes - I think the situation where few people play them as mains is not truly good for the long-term health of the game.
There are considerably more live WCs than any other buffer at high levels. Not nearly as many Eva's or Shillien Saints or Hierophants ad CoIWinButtoners.
And you do realise that you don't have to do all the buffs at the same time... and that that's a lot easier for a WC to manage than for anyone else, right?
My WC, in Avadon robes, typically has ~ 200 MP left after a buff round. Starting point is, if I recall, ~ 2200 - 2300. How could they make the mana cost any higher?
I'm not quite sure I agree with what you're suggesting about COV either. For one, I don't generally like the idea of doing something negative to one class to balance classes; I like the idea of positive solutions much better. Two, CoV is said to be awesome buff; inspite of that, to my knowledge, 9 months into the game, WCs are one of the least played classes - there is a reason for that.
I am not averse to shoring up Prophets or any other of the buffer/healer classes - I think the situation where few people play them as mains is not truly good for the long-term health of the game.
A prophet not in BW with mana up couldn't even buff the group with an equivalent. Apparently you underestimate yourself. Being able to full buff in avadon with no mana up is excellent.
I realize it's a lot easier for the WC, yes. Mana regen rate is still going to impose a limit on what can be done. If you are qualifying by saying "live", I was not particularly cognizant of that, but it doesn't surprise me, now that you inform me of the fact. I do very much think that is a symptom of an overall problem for healers/buffers in this game, with the possible exception of a WC. I think most people don't want to play them as mains because there's not enough for them to do. I think the solution is to do some positive things for the all the classes, but maybe much more so the ones that are not WCs. See my next post, under Suggestions, and tell me what you think.
i had an idea last night.... all buffer types should get additional bonuses from buffs, like enchanced bonuses from a particular buff...
I say this because it's funny how buffers (prophets in particular, WC isn't nearly as bad in this case) gain the least from their own buffs compared to every other class. Prophets are neither defensive or offensive orientated, so any buffs they put on themselves gives minimal benefits (their defensive buffs give less defensive bonus than offensive orientated classes, and offensive buffs give prophets less bonus than defensive orientated classes)... their buffs should not aim to only enhance everyone else, but it should enhance their own abilities too.
Similar in spirit to an idea I just posted under Suggestions. My only thought is, I this wouls help SEs and Prophets. But, I don't know that EEs get enough Offensive buffs to get much adavantage fro doing it this way. And I'm pretty certain a Bishop would not get much help from it, since they aren't buffers.
EEs and bishops have a large range of defensive buffs and very good healing abilities..
they also have trance which is basically the unnerfed version of the old sleep (shorter lasting but it still lands very well)
I don't think Bishops need anything else to be honest. They are a dynamo healer class.
The SE and EE will always be needed for recharging. Right now, in a full party, the prophet has to be tied to one for extra mana...and the EE/SE has to heal.
The real key is, if WC and prophet are both supposed to be non-healer/recharge buffers, why aren't they equals?
The prophet who does full buffs on our not-full group uses a conversion homunkulus and BtS and has NO MP left after buffing.
But what is the Prophet buffing? Looking over the skill list of a Prophet shows a fair number of buffs that the PP gets that a WC does not. It also makes a difference that a WC is unable to 'not give' a buff to others. It's either the whole deal or none at all.
Or better yet, Instead of making groups with just ONE BUFFER, ONE HEALER, and SEVEN DD's....how about spreading that grouping invite around? Heaven forbid you should invite BOTH a PP and WC into the same group! (And don't forget the poor tanks!) Good lord, the WC could do his buffs, and the PP could do the other ones he has and both would still be able to swing a weapon in combat AND have enough MP to rebuff at the end of the round as well! And they could even wear something other than robes when doing it!. Hell, maybe what you need is TWO PP's per group. (Two WC's is awfully redundant in comparison...)
The prophet who does full buffs on our not-full group uses a conversion homunkulus and BtS and has NO MP left after buffing.
But what is the Prophet buffing? Looking over the skill list of a Prophet shows a fair number of buffs that the PP gets that a WC does not. It also makes a difference that a WC is unable to 'not give' a buff to others. It's either the whole deal or none at all.
Or better yet, Instead of making groups with just ONE BUFFER, ONE HEALER, and SEVEN DD's....how about spreading that grouping invite around? Heaven forbid you should invite BOTH a PP and WC into the same group! (And don't forget the poor tanks!) Good lord, the WC could do his buffs, and the PP could do the other ones he has and both would still be able to swing a weapon in combat AND have enough MP to rebuff at the end of the round as well! And they could even wear something other than robes when doing it!. Hell, maybe what you need is TWO PP's per group. (Two WC's is awfully redundant in comparison...)
prophet has a bunch of resist buffs that:
1) don't get buffed in mass pvp (no buffspots remaining)
2) gets buffed in ganks/small pvp but prophet is left behind since they're "useless" in ganks/small pvp (in my case, it's me shouting for group for pvp, then hearing them celebrate/cry on vent and I never got a group... and no, there wasn't a buffer in their gank group)
so, in the above cases prophets have the following advantage in buffs (including a simple solution to the missing buffs):
1) mass pvp - ww, btb, (zerk?), mental shield (ww, zerk = OL or healer, brb = bishop, mental shield = SE/EE... or mental shield 1 from bishop)
2) small scale pvp (clanhall... if no ch, there is bound to be a healer/buffbot lying somewhere close by <_<)
3) Rebuffing during pvp? (noble buff solves 90% of those situations)
Advantages WC have over PP that PPs cannot cover in any way (i.e. no solution that would eliminate this advantage)
1) Fast buffing, 10s buffs compared to 2-3min buffs
2) CoV is instant, PoF needs to be prebuffed or some people will not have it during pvp
3) CoV, despite popular belief that it cannot be chained, can be easily chained with just dance of concentration since BDs are always in group, xp or pvp, which means PoF's zero downtime "advantage" is eliminated and since CoV is superior to PoF in everyway except the small run speed difference CoV is prefered over PoF everytime.
So all of WC's disadvantages can be easily covered, whereas prophet's disadvantages can never be covered. Is that fair? I don't think so... not to mention WC's drains which actually do damage, their DoTs do decent damage (since if it lands, the damage ignores mdef), soul cry... and the extra mp they have after buffing to be able to use those skills (78 WC can buff 3 parties with their mp pool, so don't tell me they don't have enough mp)... prophets have mana burn (actually WC has it too), erase (used on 1 summon... fails alot, then out of mp when it does erase), root (lol it never lands), battle heal (lol bishops gave up healing in mass pvp for a reason... anyway prophets can do about 4 heals and they're out of mp), rezzing (I only use on bishops since they do mass rezzes, i sometimes rez randomly but i get people whining afterwards)
their DoTs do decent damage (since if it lands, the damage ignores mdef
Since its considered a Bleed it rarely lands on people with the epic jewls that resist bleeding
prophets have mana burn (actually WC has it too),
WC version of it is considered a bleed (look above) so its a rare land and if it does land its an absolute amount (about 150-200 mp) unlike pp's with their mana burn burning a % amount
erase (used on 1 summon... fails alot, then out of mp when it does erase)
I see it work very often at max lvls. In addition it will be skill enchantable in interlude.
anyway prophets can do about 4 heals and they're out of mp),
it only costs 76 mp.... a max lvl pp has a mana pool near 5-6K mp. so buffing for an average pp will be 11 buffs *40 mp per *7 (dd's in pt) thats 2310 mp + 5*40*2 (u and healer) thats 2710 mp. Sounds like they can still do some stuff.
and block shield and block ww are huge in small scale pvp
their DoTs do decent damage (since if it lands, the damage ignores mdef
Since its considered a Bleed it rarely lands on people with the epic jewls that resist bleeding
prophets have mana burn (actually WC has it too),
WC version of it is considered a bleed (look above) so its a rare land and if it does land its an absolute amount (about 150-200 mp) unlike pp's with their mana burn burning a % amount
erase (used on 1 summon... fails alot, then out of mp when it does erase)
I see it work very often at max lvls. In addition it will be skill enchantable in interlude.
anyway prophets can do about 4 heals and they're out of mp),
it only costs 76 mp.... a max lvl pp has a mana pool near 5-6K mp. so buffing for an average pp will be 11 buffs *40 mp per *7 (dd's in pt) thats 2310 mp + 5*40*2 (u and healer) thats 2710 mp. Sounds like they can still do some stuff.
and block shield and block ww are huge in small scale pvp
Tok...not everyone plays 15+ hrs a day like you do. Even if we compare a max lvl prophet, let's address the most important factor and not skip it like a deceptive *******. PoF can't even be buffed on half the party...CoV will be had by everyone. Considering that is about 6 buffs in one...Also the good buffs average more like 50 mp, which puts it at around 3850. Mind you, my 58 prophet has all these, and nowhere near 4k mp in BW with a mana up staff. So he can't even complete the buffs. You're right, prophet has to hit 78 before it can even buff a full party. I'm glad we established that.
PoF can't even be buffed on half the party...CoV will be had by everyone.
CoV has a base recast of 20 mins, PoF has a based recast of 50 secs.
With standard buffs CoV can be lowered to 5 mins thats 1/4 of the base. With the same buffs PoF recast timer can be lowered to 14 secs that can buff more than 9 people.
Mind you a WC doesn't even have all those buffs to buff til 68^^.
and I don't play 15 hours a day!! I do 6 at most nowadays.
PoF can't even be buffed on half the party...CoV will be had by everyone.
CoV has a base recast of 20 mins, PoF has a based recast of 50 secs.
With standard buffs CoV can be lowered to 5 mins thats 1/4 of the base. With the same buffs PoF recast timer can be lowered to 14 secs that can buff more than 9 people.
Mind you a WC doesn't even have all those buffs to buff til 68^^.
and I don't play 15 hours a day!! I do 6 at most nowadays.
most WC has cast speed setup... even a wc in arcana set with acumen weapon can chain CoV with dance of concentration on... (i.e. 5min cooldown)
sithmaster: i'm suprised that someone doesn't know prophet mp consumtions... it takes about 500mp per person for pvp buffs times 9 = 4500mp... that's already more than my mana pool with -4men and no mp weapon (my mp is at 4.1k with bts6 and maj robes) i can only barely buff everyone because it takes 2-3min to buff up and the 2-3min mp regen gives me the extra mp to finish buffs... but most of the time it's very tight...
in pve for large groups i'll need to sit because it takes 15min sitting to regen all my mp to rebuff and with only 18min left after buffing till next set of buffs I can afford to even stand up.
in pvp, i NEED recharges... because everyone wants buffs up with at the very minimum 5min buffer time between each buff set, and since in pvp we're always moving I can never regen that mp... even with OL buffing 3 buffs (ww, shield, mdef) I can't keep mp up.. i even spam my mp potions (450mp every 10min) lol
This sitting business is the reason why I hate pvping with prophet now... I refuse to believe that prophets really are "supposed" to have 0 part in pvp just because they need to regen mp...
PoF can't even be buffed on half the party...CoV will be had by everyone.
CoV has a base recast of 20 mins, PoF has a based recast of 50 secs.
With standard buffs CoV can be lowered to 5 mins thats 1/4 of the base. With the same buffs PoF recast timer can be lowered to 14 secs that can buff more than 9 people.
Mind you a WC doesn't even have all those buffs to buff til 68^^.
and I don't play 15 hours a day!! I do 6 at most nowadays.
most WC has cast speed setup... even a wc in arcana set with acumen weapon can chain CoV with dance of concentration on... (i.e. 5min cooldown)
sithmaster: i'm suprised that someone doesn't know prophet mp consumtions... it takes about 500mp per person for pvp buffs times 9 = 4500mp... that's already more than my mana pool with -4men and no mp weapon (my mp is at 4.1k with bts6 and maj robes) i can only barely buff everyone because it takes 2-3min to buff up and the 2-3min mp regen gives me the extra mp to finish buffs... but most of the time it's very tight...
in pve for large groups i'll need to sit because it takes 15min sitting to regen all my mp to rebuff and with only 18min left after buffing till next set of buffs I can afford to even stand up.
in pvp, i NEED recharges... because everyone wants buffs up with at the very minimum 5min buffer time between each buff set, and since in pvp we're always moving I can never regen that mp... even with OL buffing 3 buffs (ww, shield, mdef) I can't keep mp up.. i even spam my mp potions (450mp every 10min) lol
This sitting business is the reason why I hate pvping with prophet now... I refuse to believe that prophets really are "supposed" to have 0 part in pvp just because they need to regen mp...
Looking at my prophet and thinking "what mandatory buffs do I need" I can come up with around 11 or 12 averaging a little over 50 mp per cast. It's about 4k mp to buff a full party with that...not available though. You have to drop even buffs you might want :(
higher level = higher mp costs for some buffs (btb,greater might/sheild,resist dark...etc)
If you want I'll do a breakdown for you o.o
Fighters: btb6, might, ww, mental shield, haste, dw, focus, guidance, shield, mdef, zerk (or not),greater might(or shield),resist unholy
67 + 35 + 27 + 52 + 48 + 52 + 48 + 52 + 39 + 48 + 48 + 69 + 69 = 657mp... lol it's more than 500 even
mages: bts6, btb6, mental shield, acumen, zerk, ww, shield, mdef, concentration, bless shield, greater shield, resist dark
65 + 67 + 52 + 44 + 48 + 27 + 39 + 48 + 64 + 52 + 69 + 69 = 644mp
point proven I think.
But in a party of 9 where you have to choose, you have to drop some of the buffs. You really only need damage increasing buffs and standard defense buffs. You can knock off btb6, mental shield, and resist unholy. At low levels you don't have the expense of gr might/shield, though by 58 they are certainly there. For mages, the same scenario applies, you don't need bless shield (how often do mages face things they are fighting, they are always kiting away when getting hit anyways), btb, bts (it doesnt increase mana regen and is therefore useless), or resist dark.
You are overbuffing with those sets. It is possible to squeeze out prophet buffs in any range, but people keep saying prophet have all sorts of extra buffs. If a prophey JUST buffs the things he has in common with a WC, he is out of mana.
Nobody needs btb unless they are getting frequently hit.
Bless the soul is useless unless you have people regening over their max mp (shouldn't ever happen).
Mental Shield isn't needed for most hunting, a proph can carry wake scrolls and do just fine.
Bless shield on nukers is a nice added bonus but nowhere near needed.
Resist dark on everyone...I don't even know why you'd bother. Can your healers not keep up with the party?
Even tanks take zerk if the healer is able to keep up on mana, so why buff excessive defense items. It's nice to know you could reduce damage and buff these things, but it isn't necessary to hunt.
The fact remains, even if you DROP these things, it takes way too much mana to buff everyone. Late game, you have to keep redoing PoF so much, it is absolutely weaker than CoF...and thats before looking at stat effects.
those are pvp buffs (minus zerk from there if u want but some ppl want them)
I have no problem in pve since grind is boring and I'm just as glad to just afk 20min instead of right clicking...
in small groups for pve I can buff up to 7 ppl(including myself) without needing to sit to regen and DD as well
What is this massive WC hate from PP? The prophet problem (from what I understand by the posts) is that they don't have unique buffs that are useful, not the existance of WC. To my opinion, prophets shoud focus on asking somthing useful from NC, not cry out "WC ae better than prophets".
I know some of you will say: "So what? NC is not going to do anything about it anyway". Well, I don't think whining about WC>>prophet is going to help you anyhow.
may I point out that the best xp in the game does not come from 9 man parties. It comes from duo, trios,4-5 people max. a PP has plently of mp to support a group under those circumstances.
The only respectable XP with a full 9 man party is Boss Room in IT. Even then you are talking about max lvl when a PP does have the mp to buff.
In PvP a pp can get recharges, share buffs with a WC who needs mp too, or get the mage parties where a WC has very few buffs to support them.
i have no problem with xping... just nowhere to use my high level skills after xping...
WC doesn't need recharges in pvp, they can buff 3 parties and still do a couple more drains/DoTs/CoLs
I am not asking for more buffs, I am asking for pvpability... not like damaging attacks, but things like debuffs, shortterm buffs that I give depending on the situation...etc. I was plenty annoyed when I found out the invincible buff was given to bishops, that should really have been prophet's buff... it just goes to show that they don't care about prophets outside of olympiad... which they got nerfed in interlude as well due to DD's massive damage boost with skills, and 2 virtually useless skills at lvl 79... debuff immunity? spell turning? Prophets already beat nukers and summoners with ease in olympiad, and it doesn't matter what prophets have outside olympiad, because everyone has prophet's buffs anyone can beat prophets...
WC doesn't need recharges in pvp, they can buff 3 parties and still do a couple more drains/DoTs/CoLs
If you mean "partially buff 3 parties", yes sure. Maybe he can do 10 parties if he does one buff at each. I hope you don't mean "fully buff 3 parties", do you? Otherwise, please state level and equipment of the particular WC.
No dought, I would love to see how a WC'er could even give two parties full buffs. Ok, well maybe if I had mana up instead of acum, but then it would take forever for me to cast all thoes buffs.
WCs complaining about cast speed of buffs is almsot as rich as complaining about MP costs in mass buffing groups.
Prophets need conversion just in order to buff one full group.
Im not complaining about it, I love my WC'er...I do wish I had a few other buffs and got a few sooner, but such is life. I think my WC'er is great, and thrilled that my fear is landing more and more on ppl. :D
I just think if you can play each class right, almost every class is just as good and fun as the other. Granted that im not talking about straight out pvp or pve, just all around usefull and fun to play.
i have no problem with xping... just nowhere to use my high level skills after xping...
WC doesn't need recharges in pvp, they can buff 3 parties and still do a couple more drains/DoTs/CoLs
I am not asking for more buffs, I am asking for pvpability... not like damaging attacks, but things like debuffs, shortterm buffs that I give depending on the situation...etc. I was plenty annoyed when I found out the invincible buff was given to bishops, that should really have been prophet's buff... it just goes to show that they don't care about prophets outside of olympiad... which they got nerfed in interlude as well due to DD's massive damage boost with skills, and 2 virtually useless skills at lvl 79... debuff immunity? spell turning? Prophets already beat nukers and summoners with ease in olympiad, and it doesn't matter what prophets have outside olympiad, because everyone has prophet's buffs anyone can beat prophets...
It doesn't sound like you've given much thought about how your new skills might be useful. You need to think about it from the perspective of what skills other classes have access to (especially in Olympiad) and then think about how your new skills can be used.
One example: with debuff immunity you can use your own debuffs without fear that they'll be reflected back onto you.
those 2 skills are oly skills, we dont want oly skills, we dont even want to pwn in oly, we want to be useful in pvp, not just buff and sit 20minutes till pvp ends, both Interlude skills are imo not much useful in open pvp, especialy when prophs are always oom
lol prophets have 2 debuffs only anyway... it's not like those 2 debuffs will help against DDs in interlude in olympiad anyway... (archers cycle through their skills twice to kill a prophet in heavy /light armour spamming battle heal on themselves, that takes less than 20s to do, glads can slowly but surely range attack prophets to death, if they stop to heal all the better, tyrants are faster than prophets even with block ww since apparantly wolf totem isn't a speed increasing buff <_<, destroyers are easier since they have no ranged but they can still use a bow to waaay outdamage a prophet, tanks own prophets... prophets can't kill tanks in the time given during olympiad, daggers... lmao 1-2shot, what did I miss? warlords? mmm haven't tried against them but they can still put up a good fight when I played one on PTS)
summoners and nukers are the only ones prophets beat consistently as according to the DPS cycle... but outside the arena prophets are right down at the bottom of the pvp list, because in olympiad their only advantage was buffs but outside olympiad everyone has the buffs prophets have so prophets lose 99% of their advantage there. Mana burn sounds all nice and dandy... every tried using it in open pvp? heck just try it out in arena... you'll die about 3 times in a row before you can empty someone's mp. Root doesn't land... 1.3k matk, maxed out root (not OE), fails 50% on a 6x TH (lowest mdef along with HE in game) in doom leather and b jewels (prolly had magic barrier and mental shield... but a 10 lvl difference should overcome those easily or so I thought..) and I failed 100% on a 78 EE with stacked items (prolly at least 3 of the boss jewels) and she was only self buffed (mental shield only)... and no it wasn't just a couple tries... i emptied my mp on her with about 100 tries. Yes she had stacked items... but 100% fails out of 100 tries?
ok what else... block wind walk, block shield... nice but bishop's aoe version makes ours obsolete plus it doesn't land very well when everyone is fully buffed...
mmmm what else is there? name something that prophets are good at (i.e. at least 40+ skill) that would at least allow a prophet to brag about in pvp. (atm my "bragging" would consist of: "omg I rooted him!!!!"... i.e. rooting a like spoiling a rare recipe or something <_<)
those 2 skills are oly skills, we dont want oly skills, we dont even want to pwn in oly, we want to be useful in pvp, not just buff and sit 20minutes till pvp ends, both Interlude skills are imo not much useful in open pvp, especialy when prophs are always oom
those 2 skills are oly skills, we dont want oly skills, we dont even want to pwn in oly, we want to be useful in pvp, not just buff and sit 20minutes till pvp ends, both Interlude skills are imo not much useful in open pvp, especialy when prophs are always oom
When will PP understand that they are BUFFERS and not FIGHTERS? PP killing almost everything in Olympiad is bad enough.
those 2 skills are oly skills, we dont want oly skills, we dont even want to pwn in oly, we want to be useful in pvp, not just buff and sit 20minutes till pvp ends, both Interlude skills are imo not much useful in open pvp, especialy when prophs are always oom
When will PP understand that they are BUFFERS and not FIGHTERS? PP killing almost everything in Olympiad is bad enough.
They will understand that when they actually are the best buffers.
those 2 skills are oly skills, we dont want oly skills, we dont even want to pwn in oly, we want to be useful in pvp, not just buff and sit 20minutes till pvp ends, both Interlude skills are imo not much useful in open pvp, especialy when prophs are always oom
When will PP understand that they are BUFFERS and not FIGHTERS? PP killing almost everything in Olympiad is bad enough.
no they are players just like you who want to enjoy the game. NC just took the term buffer a bit too seriously and made them into potentional mindless pve drones
those 2 skills are oly skills, we dont want oly skills, we dont even want to pwn in oly, we want to be useful in pvp, not just buff and sit 20minutes till pvp ends, both Interlude skills are imo not much useful in open pvp, especialy when prophs are always oom
When will PP understand that they are BUFFERS and not FIGHTERS? PP killing almost everything in Olympiad is bad enough.
no they are players just like you who want to enjoy the game. NC just took the term buffer a bit too seriously and made them into potentional mindless pve drones
those 2 skills are oly skills, we dont want oly skills, we dont even want to pwn in oly, we want to be useful in pvp, not just buff and sit 20minutes till pvp ends, both Interlude skills are imo not much useful in open pvp, especialy when prophs are always oom
When will PP understand that they are BUFFERS and not FIGHTERS? PP killing almost everything in Olympiad is bad enough.
They will understand that when they actually are the best buffers.
Sure...give PP party and alliance buffs in one and give them every single buff in game and 100k mana and delete all the other buff classes.
Are you joking me...it's a MMO game you aren't supposed to have every single buff on your skill bars...there are a reason why there are other buff classes and that they share buffs with other buffers.
If you have a SE and PP in your party then let the SE buff focus, dw, vr, might, shield and the PP can buff the rest. That way you will have mana for everyone.
those 2 skills are oly skills, we dont want oly skills, we dont even want to pwn in oly, we want to be useful in pvp, not just buff and sit 20minutes till pvp ends, both Interlude skills are imo not much useful in open pvp, especialy when prophs are always oom
When will PP understand that they are BUFFERS and not FIGHTERS? PP killing almost everything in Olympiad is bad enough.
They will understand that when they actually are the best buffers.
Sure...give PP party and alliance buffs in one and give them every single buff in game and 100k mana and delete all the other buff classes.
Are you joking me...it's a MMO game you aren't supposed to have every single buff on your skill bars...there are a reason why there are other buff classes and that they share buffs with other buffers.
If you have a SE and PP in your party then let the SE buff focus, dw, vr, might, shield and the PP can buff the rest. That way you will have mana for everyone.
I agree with you there, only problem is that WC have usefull buffs in the game (enough to make them overpowered compared to other supportclasses).
those 2 skills are oly skills, we dont want oly skills, we dont even want to pwn in oly, we want to be useful in pvp, not just buff and sit 20minutes till pvp ends, both Interlude skills are imo not much useful in open pvp, especialy when prophs are always oom
When will PP understand that they are BUFFERS and not FIGHTERS? PP killing almost everything in Olympiad is bad enough.
They will understand that when they actually are the best buffers.
They are the best buffers. The only thing that WC has over PP that I want is VR, but I'm not willing to give up WW, BTS, BTB, Holy Weapon, Shield Block, concentration and Zerk for it.
Plus my shadow has built in VR :P Prophet ftw!
Seriously...PP's are complaining about warcryers? I guess they should probably lower a prophet's mana cost per spell, but..i'd take Prophet buffs over WC buffs any day.
I think Heirophant is better than Doomcryer in small parties. Grab a 78 Heirophant (with DD setup), 74+ BD/SD, and a good DD and you can own all.
An alternative party using 78 Doomcryer (can't do DD setup or SC cause of longer re-use on CoV and MP-problems), 70+ BD/SD, and a good DD. This party does not have Berserk or Holy Weapon; in which case the added effects of CoV's crit stats mean nothing. The party ends up doing slightly less damage.
Overall, two high quality setups with good results, but the Heirophant's party still kills slightly faster.
I'm not complaining about my class, it's fun. And to the PP's who sit and buff, go [censored] yourselves, I can easily top 1k patk melee with crappy duals and help fight; you people ruin the reputation of all good prophets/heirophants. (the exception being large parties :P where WC/DC shines, but who exp's in large parties? :P).
Just small correction.
CoV crit bonuses > Zerk + holyweapon and dont forget that BD has holyweapon.
And WC has not mp problems in small group even tho he is healing/sleeping mobs and dding whole time.
Buffing full buffs for a WC costs around 2.3k mp and that amount doesn't change if he buffs only himself or a full party. They can't sleep and heal all the time after they have buffed because then they won't have any mana to rebuff when the buffs fade, but they can melee if he doesn't need to sleep 3-4 mobs.
Just small correction.
CoV crit bonuses > Zerk + holyweapon and dont forget that BD has holyweapon.
And WC has not mp problems in small group even tho he is healing/sleeping mobs and dding whole time.
WC doesn't have MP-problems if he pops those stupid MP-potions every 10 minutes. <--correction :P
CoV crit bonuses are not as good as Zerk+Holy weapon. HW alone is 20% vs undead mobs and 10% vs demon mobs of CONSTANT damage. Zerk, I would guess adds about 20% CONSTANT damage. CoV is better for archers, but small parties in pagans (the only PP hunting place) never have archers (unless the archer likes to die alot :)). Thus making the crit bonuses of CoV not as powerful as HW+Zerk in terms of CONSTANT damage. I've never seen a bladedancer use holy dance instead of fury/fire/vr/warrior. Ever. I suppose with a WC, you can drop VR dance for Holy dance, but most BD aren't that smart :P
I stand by my claims, I'll change my mind when I run into a situation that disproves my theories :P
So is the complaint that lvl 79 WC are better than lvl 79 Prophets? In that case, with CoV, sure. However, from the non stop flood of complaints from some of you, it appears that you feel "overall" WC > Prophet, in which case, I disagree.
I also have a 6x WC and a 5X prophet on the same account, and I still prefer the prophet.
BD also has death whisper, might and haste as well. But that's not the point, is it?
The BD's DW, Might, Haste, stacks with standard buffs. The BD's holy weapon does not stack. Zerk is 8% patk and 8% atk speed that makes prophets strong. It also increases damage taken, and you don't have VR to make up for that. It depends on your party, but the WC can do big and small...the prophet can just do small...and barely buffs any better. Late game, the prophet loses the "better" part of that phrase.
I want ResistShock for my WC, or whatever buff gives reasonable help against stuns. But I don't get it. Actually. I guess the OP didn't like that in some ways the WC has some advantages over a PP. But so many others seem to just want some improvements for the PP, and it seems mostly in PvP situations outside the Olympiad. Personally, I've got no problem with the latter.
Yes, Chant of Victory is nice. But so is elemental resistance. So is ressurrection. So is mental aegis. Etc etc.
Ah, so thats why all groups take warcryers first in pvp and only if there is no CoV WC, tehy invite prophet.
ally res > prophet rez lol
mental shield.... all healers have it except bishop but they have lvl1 version of it, which is already 50% resist root/sleep/silence (l2p) compared to the 80% for lvl4.
In pve prophet's have zerk that make up (kinda) the difference between PoF and CoV.... but in pvp where zerk is severely nerfed, prophets lose alot in that field. Even without elemental protection, nukers damage at high end pvp is incomparable to CoV archer groups with songs, elemental protection becomes an overkill.
Well, and maybe that's part of the overall problem for Prophets. Archers seem to rule in PvP at the highest levels, and at those levels they want COV (as does probably any other fighter class). If nukers ruled PVP at high-end, I think this would be a different situation for the buffer classes, because WCs have only one buff for the nukers (acumen).
Well, and maybe that's part of the overall problem for Prophets. Archers seem to rule in PvP at the highest levels, and at those levels they want COV (as does probably any other fighter class). If nukers ruled PVP at high-end, I think this would be a different situation for the buffer classes, because WCs have only one buff for the nukers (acumen).
zerk/ww can be obtained from OL (tell ppl who dun want it to move away o.o)... Btb from clanhall or bishops or a random buffpet
Well, and maybe that's part of the overall problem for Prophets. Archers seem to rule in PvP at the highest levels, and at those levels they want COV (as does probably any other fighter class). If nukers ruled PVP at high-end, I think this would be a different situation for the buffer classes, because WCs have only one buff for the nukers (acumen).
zerk/ww can be obtained from OL (tell ppl who dun want it to move away o.o)... Btb from clanhall or bishops or a random buffpet
I am a dominator and I will not zerk at siege...even the nukers. I'd rather have 1200+ mdef than only 1k...
It's clear to me the people more in favor of WC have only partied their buffpets and prophets who sit and do nothing for 20 minutes.
If you're running a 3-man in pagans, 78 PP > 78 WC. I've been in a 3-man on my BD sub w/ a 78 doomcryer in the party...I must say I was dissapointed at the overall DPS compared to when I was on my Heirphant in a 3-man. Those crit bonuses don't seem to compare to having HW/Zerk and Fury/Fire/Warrior/VR dances.
As opposed to this; CoV means the DC has to use mage gear to keep it up. Mage gear means he can't make full potential of his superior STR, and of course, using CoV means he can't hold soul cry on, at least not long enough to make a difference.
On the other hand, on my Heirophant has a little over 1040 patk at near 800 atk speed; I can buff 3 people easily while wearing heavy armor, and I can hold PoF without thinking about it to 3 people. The pagans room is cleared faster in the end, meaning using the Heirophant is slightly better.
But also, honestly; if your main DD is a dagger user, CoV may be slightly better. This test (well, not test :P) was done with 78+ Gladiators as main DD's.
And on a last note; I think the buffpet problem is WAY more dangerous to a prophet's career than any Wcarcrier could ever be. In fact it hurts both PP and WC; the buffpet problem is the problem we need to be examining instead of pointing fingers at a class we think maybe overpowered.
PP/SE/WC/EE/Bish; all useful classes, no matter what elitest pricks will say. Try living one day without your expensive buffpets, paying $45, $60, $85 a month just so you can lvl faster; lol, joke is on you. Not my fault you don't got a woman/man to spend all that money on. Night.
Hehe that reminds me of work. Our boss gets bitter we all have new cars and always says we need more expensive girlfriends or to start having kids to spend our money on.
As long as you play your toons, have as many ac**** as you want.
I am mostly with you (TheBun, that is). All the classes of buffers and healers are useful. And ideally, there would be plenty of people playing all the buffer/healer classes as mains, and the rest of us would just play 1 acct and have less lag and other problems. However, the latter is not really gonna change at all without really drastic changes by NC. And even if NC did make some big changes, this late in the game, I suspect they would only put a dent in the use of boxed buffer/healers.
We would need a larger player base to replace the boxed healers atm...so the number of toons logged in really wouldn't change...I fail to see how boxing causes lag. And yeah, even if your 2nd accnt isn't a buffer, there is always the dwarf in Giran selling gear advantage.
In my personal opinion, PP >> WC. If the entire basis of this is that at lvl 79 WC have a better buff, then pffft.
While xping i much prefer the greater killing and casting speed, as well as harder hits, more hp and more mp, that I get from a prophet.
I rather have a 78 PP then a 78 WC TBH. When I duo with my 78 pp clannie we rock our wartags. Facing multiple mages at ones were never this fun when they are block shield/ww and mana burned. Not to mention they do crappy damage with those resist buffs.
Also agree with theBun that a PP is better then a WC in pagans, unless you have an oop proph :p.
basically WC *can* do xp groups without *any* other support class (sws/bd are DDs in these groups, and they perform well in that department)
prophets *need* healer/recharger in group... thus forcing the group to become bigger... and to compensate for that you need more DDs........... and we end up with a larger group and PP end up needing to sit to regen mp... which defeats the purpose that WC can buff enitre groups easily and PP wastes all his mp buffing many individuals...
i would hapily party any 78 prophet that wants to xp, can't remember last time i seen one though.
i wonder how prophets get to 78? mmmmm
oh wait it's near impossible to level a prophet from 40-56.... then people leech from you (low level, same buffs, more xp for high levels, less xp for you), and then abandon you 60+... and it becomes a massive struggle between 60-68... then pagans parties come into play and it's all ok again... until 74+ when people start to see you as a leech since you don't get new buffs anymore, and then until 78 ppl just call you leech, and at 78 everyone loves you.... in pve... in pvp they still largely ignore you.
WC even tho he is supperior in PvP (and one of the best oly classes) he gets not only new Interlude skills, but his Fear skills will be useful in PvP, so its another boost of WC PvPwise, on the other hand, proph not even gets only oly skills which are useful only against nukers/summoners etc, but his Fear (Word of Fear) will not have effect in PvP. And I am wondering why ncsoft does that -.-
basically WC *can* do xp groups without *any* other support class (sws/bd are DDs in these groups, and they perform well in that department)
prophets *need* healer/recharger in group... thus forcing the group to become bigger... and to compensate for that you need more DDs........... and we end up with a larger group and PP end up needing to sit to regen mp... which defeats the purpose that WC can buff enitre groups easily and PP wastes all his mp buffing many individuals...
i would hapily party any 78 prophet that wants to xp, can't remember last time i seen one though.
i wonder how prophets get to 78? mmmmm
oh wait it's near impossible to level a prophet from 40-56.... then people leech from you (low level, same buffs, more xp for high levels, less xp for you), and then abandon you 60+... and it becomes a massive struggle between 60-68... then pagans parties come into play and it's all ok again... until 74+ when people start to see you as a leech since you don't get new buffs anymore, and then until 78 ppl just call you leech, and at 78 everyone loves you.... in pve... in pvp they still largely ignore you.
Prophets get to 78 by ******* themselves to people and make them feel sorry for you :P
I solo'd most of 1-70, with a few duo's now and then and a RARE party once in a pink moon.
Incidently, Nya helped me get to 70-75 on his TH sub :P
Then I duo one person 75-78 with a few parties here and there if someone was looking for someone to talk to :P
back in c3 when you used to see some of the last active buffers, i remember they often had great sense of humor, always making fun jokes and comments between buffing ^^
back in c3 when you used to see some of the last active buffers, i remember they often had great sense of humor, always making fun jokes and comments between buffing ^^
I miss them :(
You're not the only person I've seen say that. But everyone else I've seen say that either has a buffpet or uses their clan's buffpets. It's not there isn't any active buffers, it's that no one parties us. :P I actually see quite a few high level buffers, at least on Hinde, who are mains. Although none of them are as awesome as I am.
I don't think either class is superior. They do different things. COV is an awesome buff that WCs have. And Magnus will be very good too. But if you're going up against enemy nukers, you'd probably prefer your group's buffer to be a prophet (elemental resist, resist unholy, resist wind, mental aegis, etc.).
archer groups will choose cov anyway
6x buffpet can do all the ressist as well
unholy, wind, aegis = se/ee which will be proly around
so elem prot is the only reason why we do live, and there are less and less nukers around cuz of they are not fotm anymore
and you can take cov (mdef bonus) do warding/invocation w/e and you have better nuker defense than w/ proph
archer groups will choose cov anyway
6x buffpet can do all the ressist as well
unholy, wind, aegis = se/ee which will be proly around
so elem prot is the only reason why we do live, and there are less and less nukers around cuz of they are not fotm anymore
and you can take cov (mdef bonus) do warding/invocation w/e and you have better nuker defense than w/ proph
Prophets make the cheapest PvP scouts :P Heavy armor and free bsoe :P
Bah the problem of PP is that it becomes an item.
BD/SwS buffs last 2 minutes so they must be active, and as melee assists they can actually hit because it doesn't affect their ability to buff (no MP cost when hitting in melee). They have things to do.
Bishops are hardly boxable. Ok you don't really need one in small parties, but when you need them, they must be live. But if they want to nuke to help, the problem is not the power of the nuke but the MP cost. BD/SwS are not top DD, but at least they can do something. So when the party is quieter, they just sit like prophets.
SE have buffs that makes them an item too, but at least their recharge and heals give them an interrest to be live.
EE are good healers and their recharge makes them better when live. I don't know if their buffs are really enough to let them in box.
WC and PP are items. You don't need them live. You buff once and all their power is at this instant. In small parties, the time that the PP takes to buff everyone doesn't break the rythme too much. It's only every 20 minutes.
So if WC and PP want some love, it's not through overpowered new buffs that they will find them. The "war" between WC and PP is pretty sterile because everybody would just close their mouth if they both had something to do in party that requires a real player to be present behind them. Otherwise, they are just potions, and that's sad.
So instead of comparing your buffs and wanting to have this one instead of that other and blablabla, come up with idea of things to do knowing that the easier is to make them melee to add damage but it's similar to BD/SwS, and that it can hardly be a nuke if they need MP for both activities.
Well I don't know how work PP in heavy + a weapon in party so I can't say it's too powerful or it sucks. But Heavy profiency is one step. Does it really help? What would you need more?
I don't think either class is superior. They do different things. COV is an awesome buff that WCs have. And Magnus will be very good too. But if you're going up against enemy nukers, you'd probably prefer your group's buffer to be a prophet (elemental resist, resist unholy, resist wind, mental aegis, etc.).
I made a post somewhere suggesting to add a passive to buffers(WC/PP... maybe SE too, actually maybe not..):
- Combat ability increases along with the number of members in party. The increase will be similar to party xp bonus increases, and at about 5 members a prophet's combat ability should be similar to a similar level DD without using burst damage skills. This bonus is affected by people in range of the prophet (like xp gain).
This means buffers will have a DD 2ndary role (like SwS/BD) but will perform the same in olympiad since there's no partying there o.o
Bah the problem of PP is that it becomes an item.
BD/SwS buffs last 2 minutes so they must be active, and as melee assists they can actually hit because it doesn't affect their ability to buff (no MP cost when hitting in melee). They have things to do.
Bishops are hardly boxable. Ok you don't really need one in small parties, but when you need them, they must be live. But if they want to nuke to help, the problem is not the power of the nuke but the MP cost. BD/SwS are not top DD, but at least they can do something. So when the party is quieter, they just sit like prophets.
SE have buffs that makes them an item too, but at least their recharge and heals give them an interrest to be live.
EE are good healers and their recharge makes them better when live. I don't know if their buffs are really enough to let them in box.
WC and PP are items. You don't need them live. You buff once and all their power is at this instant. In small parties, the time that the PP takes to buff everyone doesn't break the rythme too much. It's only every 20 minutes.
So if WC and PP want some love, it's not through overpowered new buffs that they will find them. The "war" between WC and PP is pretty sterile because everybody would just close their mouth if they both had something to do in party that requires a real player to be present behind them. Otherwise, they are just potions, and that's sad.
So instead of comparing your buffs and wanting to have this one instead of that other and blablabla, come up with idea of things to do knowing that the easier is to make them melee to add damage but it's similar to BD/SwS, and that it can hardly be a nuke if they need MP for both activities.
Well I don't know how work PP in heavy + a weapon in party so I can't say it's too powerful or it sucks. But Heavy profiency is one step. Does it really help? What would you need more?
When from time to time i play my prophet active I always CC with windstrike and root. But oh well, in the end classes like OL are even worst to group than prophets nowadays. Don't know what NC is thinking, or tanks, can't remember last time i seen a tank hold agro better than me in regular pve :x
But ppl box them very rarely (atleast Bd and sws), and thats for some reasons, its harder to box them and live sws/bd adds to group/xp/drops enough to invite live over box. If it would be the same for proph, they wouldnt be boxed that much as well.
I have yet to see that even happen in any party/clan I've been in. People didn't start the mass level of boxing until healers became so scarce. Think it has something to do with 99% of people subbing a WC or HE and very very very few subbing an EE.
The only way to encourage live play of all classes is to make them all pvp viable.
WC and PP are items. You don't need them live. You buff once and all their power is at this instant.
Can't speak for PP but when my WC buffs, he neber sits down. He does CC with his remaining MP and DD with his dagger. I might sit for 2 mins before the end of buff cycle if I did some CC and HOT's but that's it. I never felt I lacked things to do in parties.
You're right, but WCs don't seem to have the problem where so many are boxed that it can be difficult to get in a party. I'm thinking, one main difference is one you don't see emntioned much in this thread. Since a WC gets their buffs much later than most other buffer/healer classes, they get chosen less as boxed buffers. The people who play WCs are more commonly the people who really do want to play that class as a main. Just a different view on the whole thing.
There are a lot of live prophets at low levels (40~52 or so), but most of them die off as they realise they won't actually get any significant PvE buffs over a box after level 56.
Of course resistances are nice, but they are not as make-or-break as they should be in order to make prophets desirable in PvE.
There are a lot of live prophets at low levels (40~52 or so), but most of them die off as they realise they won't actually get any significant PvE buffs over a box after level 56.
There are a lot of buffs, there are a lot of great buffs (who in their right mind would want to hunt without resist unholy in areas where it actually works like stacked shield and greater shield?), but they are too far spread out.
A class should not make barely any progress for 20 levels after going in leaps and bounds for 16.
I'd be all for getting focus, DW, hsate etc. at a later level, but that's too late now - maybe time to nerf them all and introduce further higher levels of them as you progress.
Eh perhaps, but I still think the solution is strengthening those higehr level defensive buffs for all classes. Let's make BTB 6 +100% hp and greater shield +33% pdef.
Yes, and where does being restricted to small groups put you in PvP?
(And might I ask - who's the second in the catacomb duo? :P BD?)
PP, BD, SWS/SE works great =D
my prophet can buff up to a 4 man fine in tallum heavy w/ OE kris focus, but if there is no VR I'd use robes to toss in a heal or two.
Yes, and where does being restricted to small groups put you in PvP?
Specialized buffs? I'm just asking, but that would go with the game lore for Prophets.
A specialized buffer would imply that is all they do. I have no problem with leaving the prophet weak offensively, but it should be the most capable buffer since it lacks dd'ing, healing, and regen abilities.
All I'm saying, and I might be wrong, but in a large group, if Orcs are there, let them buff the party (or parties) with the "basics", and let the Prophets and other buffers fill in with more specialized buffs. Maybe I'm being simplistic, but that just makes a more sensible use of mana and skills, to my mind.
Edit: Let me say something a little differently. The game lore does imply that Prophets are the ultimate buffers. But they imply this is because they have the most buffing skills, not the ability to buff the largest group of people. There are things that can done to improve the lot of prophets, and of buffers and healers in general, but I think some of the fundamental distinctions should remain. One of those being, the Orc race can buff an entire group (party or clan or alliance), and the Prophets have the most kinds of buffs that can be applied.
Prophet and other buffers? How many buffers do you think a party of 9 brings? There is a buffer, a healer, BD, DDs, and MAYBE a tank and/or SWS. The fact still remains that the prophet can't support even medium sized groups as it is incapable of healing.
Orcs have a wide buff set, strong group heal, and dd ability.
Elves have recharges, heals, and moderate buffs.
Bishop has the best heals in game and buffs to make those heals even better.
Prophet has strong buffs and not enough mana to cast them on medium to large parties.
The class needs a reevaluation of mana costs. Drop all the buff expense by 25% (which isn't huge) and we'd be talking about an equal playing field.
Right now the only prophet full party involves recharges from an SE or EE.
The Orc buff set is not as wide as the Prophet. Nobody's buff set is as wide as a Prophet. And neither a Prophet or a WC is meant to do much healing; a separate healer is always needed for groups. Personally, I think it would make more sense than to give them some DD ability. Although I don't know if they are far behind WCs in this respect.
You seem to still be ignoring a central fact - the Prophet is not meant to be the primary buffer for large groups.
Edit: Sorry on the way that last one was phrased, I realized later it might sound a little rude.
That's the thing - once you have VR and basic buffs, a seperate healer is NOT needed anymore.
The prophet can buff a large group (by skimping on buffs, which is fine), but they are still actually lacking the two essential buffs for melees (VR)/mages (empower). The latter is no problem, the former puts the prophet in a position of 'archer groups only'.
Ah yes, now I appreciate the predicament a little better. And you can't get either of those in a bottle. NC kinda messed up here.If left the way it is now, I guess Prophets are gonna continue to suffer. On the other hand, if they give Prophets Empower and VR, SEs are likely to get left out in the cold, and possibly WCs lower than 78.
Well, aside from all that, why not just start over on Seigehardt? I'm not one to leave people out because of skills/classes when it comes to grouping.
The Orc buff set is not as wide as the Prophet. Nobody's buff set is as wide as a Prophet. And neither a Prophet or a WC is meant to do much healing; a separate healer is always needed for groups. Personally, I think it would make more sense than to give them some DD ability. Although I don't know if they are far behind WCs in this respect.
You seem to still be ignoring a central fact - the Prophet is not meant to be the primary buffer for large groups.
Edit: Sorry on the way that last one was phrased, I realized later it might sound a little rude.
Even if we RESTRICT the prophet to buffing the same things as a WC, he cannot buff the whole party. So even if we bring it down to the same base level of buffs for both classes (which won't include VR for the prophet), they can't buff. For a specialized buffer, they aren't even really all that good at it.
Why can't the prophet be a buffer for large groups? Who says? Why restrict whom classes can/can't party with when parties are already so restricted in L2? Making parties more difficult is a horrible idea, there are already enough people soloing.
Well, yes - didn't mean more max MP (what's the point if you can barely regenerate the maximum now while sitting down for 18 minutes?). I meant more MP around to spend - so you can stand up and do stuff.
Yes, and where does being restricted to small groups put you in PvP?
Specialized buffs? I'm just asking, but that would go with the game lore for Prophets.
A specialized buffer would imply that is all they do. I have no problem with leaving the prophet weak offensively, but it should be the most capable buffer since it lacks dd'ing, healing, and regen abilities.
I'm feeling much more cheerful about my prophet's future - maybe even without exppets.
It's funny to, I can solo no problem, no-downtime on 1x hp mobs because of herbs :P Exp is kind of low, but it's something to do when I don't have time for a party.
But yeah, prophets are underestimated because of the buffpet problem; but if you play it in a certain way, it's fun and rewarding in the end. Just stick to it.
bun what wep do you use? I find kris focus abit expensive, especially when I do so little damage compared to real daggers :P
I looked at the l2calc thing and it seems that duals do about the same damage as single hand sword (there's a bug with duals so I used the 2hand sword instead since it has same patk and crit rate), but shield would be nice o.o
bun what wep do you use? I find kris focus abit expensive, especially when I do so little damage compared to real daggers :P
I looked at the l2calc thing and it seems that duals do about the same damage as single hand sword (there's a bug with duals so I used the 2hand sword instead since it has same patk and crit rate), but shield would be nice o.o
You would just have to multiply the dps by 2 to get a real result for duals. Might want to keep in mind that because of the SAs on duals, two handed swords are nearly always stronger than duals.
Yes, and where does being restricted to small groups put you in PvP?
Specialized buffs? I'm just asking, but that would go with the game lore for Prophets.
A specialized buffer would imply that is all they do. I have no problem with leaving the prophet weak offensively, but it should be the most capable buffer since it lacks dd'ing, healing, and regen abilities.
I do more damage than most tanks.
Not even close...LOL
In the same gear the low damage tanks do 150% of the Prophet. With the same tatoos, the tanks do 200% of the prophet and still have more pdef, hp, cp.
The strong DD tanks (SK, DA with pet) manage to put out well beyond that even.
Well, most tanks (at least on Lionna) seem to run with a defensive build for some obscure reason, even the DAs. Some even use blunts in PvE (every time I see an SK in doom I want to cry x.X)l
So yeh, yanking aggro off those and/or outdamaging them is not that much of a problem.
Regardless of the fact that most tanks could easily chose to outdamage a prophet, they generally don't... on Lionna. On Devianne, it's the other way around. o.O
Well, most tanks (at least on Lionna) seem to run with a defensive build for some obscure reason, even the DAs. Some even use blunts in PvE (every time I see an SK in doom I want to cry x.X)l
So yeh, yanking aggro off those and/or outdamaging them is not that much of a problem.
Regardless of the fact that most tanks could easily chose to outdamage a prophet, they generally don't... on Lionna. On Devianne, it's the other way around. o.O
Most Hinde tanks are tatless or +str. Most wear tank armors and choose focus weapons when available. That still puts them way out ahead. You can be -5 str and still be right in line with the prophet. That, of course, doesn't really happen though.
Why does Nya cry so much? Honestly, your Emo ways are [censored] annoying.
I don't understand where you get off thinking your class is useless in PvP, and all you do is buff and sit down for 20 minutes?
Seriously, wow.
Its my posting style. You dont have to like it, but thats all you can do.
Yes I buff and sit down for 20minutes...if I have to...and thats in every full group and on lowerlvls it was even much smaller groups. If I have spare mp I either DD (or pretend to dd cuz even with FB/focus my dmg is nonfactor in comparison to dds in group) or heal (I still think that proph is backup healer in group) or root (if its worth) or pull with blockshield (if its worth) or atleast pickup so dds dont have to...but all that is not possible in full group where i have to buff PoF to several dds etc.
About PvP, yes, prophet would be good pvp class or atlesat worth inviting. But, small gank groups take CH buffs and have buffpets. Big pvp groups will always take CoV or even healer instead of proph cuz tehy can have proph buffs oop and there is no advantage of having proph in group. Sieges and big stuff, CoV>PoF, fast buffs>slow buffs. Prophet can run around and root/block/burn/erase stuff, but one healer/covcryer/dd would affect the outcome of the fight more imo.
But ofcourse if there are not enough CoVcryers, buffpets, CHbuffs, healers, dds etc etc, there is nothing wrong with inviting prophet.
Wow not in the sense of World of Warcraft but amazement I think.
Healers/buffers make a significant impact on the damage of a small group (I know that if I'm in a small group - 2~4 people, there's no way in hell we could take the same room with me or with one of those sit-down healers), but that's PvE only.
I suppose in PvP best thing you can do is rely on buffpets to do the buffing (lol?) and go around using your debuffs... that totally sounds like a great buffer thing to do.
Well, for small group is even better to kick active buffer and invite another dd with oop proph, there is 0 reasons to invite prophet even uberactive if you want best xp/adena/killingspeed. Thats why everyone makes prophpets.
I would like to buff and then be able to use my debuffs, that would be awesome. But even with OL buffs, I have to be really careful how much debuffs i use cuz of mp problems even if I spam mp elixirs all the time.
Yes, and where does being restricted to small groups put you in PvP?
Specialized buffs? I'm just asking, but that would go with the game lore for Prophets.
A specialized buffer would imply that is all they do. I have no problem with leaving the prophet weak offensively, but it should be the most capable buffer since it lacks dd'ing, healing, and regen abilities.
I do more damage than most tanks.
Not even close...LOL
In the same gear the low damage tanks do 150% of the Prophet. With the same tatoos, the tanks do 200% of the prophet and still have more pdef, hp, cp.
The strong DD tanks (SK, DA with pet) manage to put out well beyond that even.
DD Paladin is 138% of the DD Prophet. And 176% of the Tank Paladin. The DD prophet is 128% of the Tank Paladin. The DD prophet is 73% of the DD Paladin.
Even the DD tank isn't 200% better. A gladiator at 78 with full S gear is 250% better than me and does more damage then your little DD-tank could imagine doing: thus I don't state I'm stronger than one, I don't even state im stronger than DD-tanks, but I do state and stand by my word that I outdamage most tanks, because most tanks run -STR setups.
That's the thing - once you have VR and basic buffs, a seperate healer is NOT needed anymore.
The prophet can buff a large group (by skimping on buffs, which is fine), but they are still actually lacking the two essential buffs for melees (VR)/mages (empower). The latter is no problem, the former puts the prophet in a position of 'archer groups only'.
DD Paladin is 138% of the DD Prophet. And 176% of the Tank Paladin. The DD prophet is 128% of the Tank Paladin. The DD prophet is 73% of the DD Paladin.
You are comparing a tallum blade (A grade) with a OE set of duals (A grade) while both are S grade prof.
Give your tank the weapon EVERY tank at 78 has...+3 Forgotten Blade focus
DD Paladin is 200% of the DD Prophet
And why does the defense tank choose +4 dex - 4 str? Check the effects on evasion/shield defense. He will likely lose more damage returned as hp from VR than he will prevent with +4 dex on his shield. 3rd tat is +wit for heals or +int for shackles (personally I don't find +int ot have any effect).
Either way..MOST tanks is more like no tanks, considering Paladin/TK are the least played, lowest damage, and it's a difficult fight for you to even match the damage. I understand you love your prophet or healer or whatever, but they are not DDs, they are just goofy looking fools trying to break their arms swinging weapons that way more than they do.
Give your tank the weapon EVERY tank at 78 has...+3 Forgotten Blade focus
DD Paladin is 200% of the DD Prophet
The Give the Prophet +4 Tallum*Dark Legion Duals. And the equation will balance back :P
Besides, not every lvl 78 has a S grade weapon. Just people who either spend too much time in town, get mad-lucky on a drop, or have magical credit cards :P
Either way..MOST tanks is more like no tanks, considering Paladin/TK are the least played, lowest damage, and it's a difficult fight for you to even match the damage. I understand you love your prophet or healer or whatever, but they are not DDs, they are just goofy looking fools trying to break their arms swinging weapons that way more than they do.
DA's have the same exact stats as a Paladin, I've never seen a DA use his/her panther in a party. SK..has, well, 1 more Str, not a big difference. It would be extremely unlikely to reach the magical 150% output you cited earlier, and impossible to reach the 200% you imagine using equivalent gear for the Prophet/Tank, but I do concede I can't out-damage a DD tank, I can still easily out-damage HP-tanks. Too bad DD tanks don't look for parties and HP tanks don't get them. You say healers aren't DD's, well, with the way the game is designed, neither are tanks. All both class types can do it slap on whatever they can do their best, whether they look goofy or not. No one is a fool for trying to have fun in a VIDEO GAME.
Compare a prophet to a WC as a small party DD:
both 78 with +3/4 Maj Heavy, +3 Heavens Divider - focus, +3 Maj Jewelry, +4 wit -4 men, self-buffed (with PoF/CoV)
They seem closer than I expected but DPS is in favor of the WC (390 vs 479), the WC also has VR and more room for extra buffs/songs/dances. Sad the p&mdef is so low on the PP (evil zerk lol). For balance in playability the PP could use a boost as a small party DD (or WCs a nerf but nerfs aren't good)
The 100 run speed on the WC isn't nice, however, since it is likely to have someone who can buff ww2 the WC really has 133 run speed (greater haste pots are pretty cheap too). If the WC toggles soul cry they jump to an impressive 1382 patk and greatly out damage the PP. WCs don't use soul cry very much though, right?
I don't use Soul Cry in PvE - I'd rather use the mana for other things. I don't have much experience with PvP, but I kinda think Sleeps and Drains would be the more favored tools of a WC in PvP.
I am thinking there is no good strategy for an Orc vs. an Archer (except maybe for a Tyrant). Sometimes I kinda wish my Destroyer had a lure/handcuff skill to use on ranged attackers. (Just kidding, but the idea is similar to what Mickey Rourke's character did in Sin City.)
For a WC? Heavy armor + shield + drain For overlord, same deal but take less damage from hits.
If we're talking about absurd overbuffed boss jewelry 10 accnt players, nothing kills archer. There is no paper rock scissors at end game, it's paper, rock, howitzer.
Depends on the pvp. Drains on somebody with good dark resist would be a bad strategy. Soul cry vs an archer would be a bad strategy.
Orc Drains are not dark attacks; I personally tested this.
soulcry isn't a spammable skill, but +375patk for 10mp a second is definitely a great thing in certain situations where as prophets don't even have that option <_<
Orc drains aren't dark? I could've sworn...well ya learn something every day I guess.
Soulcry isn't spammable?
It's a toggle...how could something be less spammable? With a recharger around it works wonders. BD + WC and you don't need heals. Just use mana to refill your WC and give daggers more specials.
Soulcry isn't spammable?
It's a toggle...how could something be less spammable? With a recharger around it works wonders. BD + WC and you don't need heals. Just use mana to refill your WC and give daggers more specials.
Soulcry consumes far too much MP per tick to have it on for any length of time. From full you can go to 0 MP in about 5 min without doing anything else other than having SC on and fighting. And that assumes you're not buffing yourself first. If you do that you won't have enough MP to last even the 5 min.
..of course if you have an army of boxes buffing for you and recharging....well hey, we all can't be rockstars.