In these days there are cool and nice gaming mouse & keyboard on market (like Logitech G11, G15, Nostromo N30 etc.)
Anyway, yesterday I was told that you cant use such hardware when playing Lineage 2. My account was banned because of using G11 Macro buttons (and Hardware based software ofcourse because its part of my new keyboard).
So, im just warning you guys who have N30, G11, G15 and all other Hardware what comes with support software, dont use it and remember to close it before starting lineage2.
Nowdays GameGuard closes Logitech software, but if you configure your buttons before launching Lineage 2 you still CAN use buttons, but cant configure then unless you close client.
Thats how i used G11.
And all who is writing "Dont whine you b0tter" -> Im not whining, just warning everyone else. And using Hardware based sofware (part of keyboard) in my opinion is not b0tting...
And using Hardware based sofware (part of keyboard) in my opinion is not b0tting...
That is a point we could argue about for hours I guess. In my opinion, it does not matter, HOW you do it. It is bannable THAT you do it.
However I remember, that a GM said not long ago, that the logitech G15 was perfectly OK.
The main problem I got with it however, is that nowhere on the L2-box nor in the EULA does it explicitly say, that I am not allowed to use the hardware, that I already have. In the end a G11 or G15 is still a keyboard and the keyboard is the main input device for Lineage2 (coupled with the mouse). There is no way to play Lineage2 without a keyboard, so you cannot logically be banned for using a keyboard. And having to buy a low tech keyboard to avoid getting a ban seems a bit out of place to me.
Personally I did use a Logitech coredless keyboard, which had the typical 5-6 extra keys on top.. They are typically used to start email-proggys, webbrowsers, search functions and the likes, but in the end, they are freely programmable. I have never used them to try out makros for Lineage2, so I would be royally ******, if I would not be allowed to use that keyboard.
It is kinda like being disallowed to drive a Porsche or Mercedes in a 30km/h zone, just because it CAN drive faster, when in reality the driver is doing perfectly alright, if he does keep to the speed limit.
Yes, it is kind of stupid to ban people for using perfectly normal PC hardware. I know people who are using a Nostromo pad and just have the keys configured to work like the normal function keys (F1-F12), simply because they have trouble using the NORMAL function keys on their keyboard while playing (hard to reach / uncomfortable to hold their hand above the keyboard for a long time just to be able to reach the F-keys). They do not use macros which automate gameplay, they just have their function keys at a place which is more comfortable to use for them. I see absolutely nothing illegal and worthy of a ban in that. Like you said - simply HAVING hardware which COULD be used to cheat is not enough to justify a ban. Of course if NCSoft can prove that a player uses macros to automate gameplay to such an extent that the player does not even have to be at the computer anymore, that's another story.
Remapping of keys ok I think (better be) 3rd party software no I just remap my N52 for f keys and use ingame macros (allot easier to modify on the fly) have told GMs in game chat and this is not aproblem I'm still here.
As for fancy keyboards and mice with macro software... you will have a GM knock on your screen before you are banned for that. Honestly, if your keyboard macro runs 9 accounts at the same time you need to go out and get a programming job 'cuz you got skillz. (http://boards.lineage2.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=questions&Number=748586&S earchpage=1&Main=746999&Words=skillz+HGMspam&topic =&Search=true#Post748586)
Hm ... I got no skillz, just Nostromo, is running CP pot use macro bannable or not? :( Can somebody clarify it before I get banned? I got no GM knocking on screen yet, maybe that's because I spam CP pots occasionaly ... usually I'm dead before it even starts :)
So, are we allowed to use devices like the Nostromo or not?
TBH, now that I'm back into playing L2 (been back two weeks) my fingers are starting to cramp up from hovering over the F keys on my kb. The nostromo look like it would be perfect for me, since it lets you hold your hand in a much more natural position. Can we use it legit, according to NCSoft, or not?
As I understand the botting rule, every technique to automate actions, either linear or cyclic, that go beyond the single run of an ingame makro, are botting.
This would include any kind of "automatically drinking a CP potion every 20 secs for 5 minutes" and "automatically recast the buff makro every 19 minutes until keyboard toggle is deactivated". It would not include any kind of makro, that calls up to 11 in game commands and does not reactivate itself automatically.
That is MY understanding of the wording and the spirit of the rules.
As far as I understand and from convesations that I have had with GMs, You can remap you device for f keys and use in game macros but you maynot use device macros (like a macro using nostrimo software(as this would be 3rd party)) Anything other than ingame macros could be considered 3rd party. My nostrimo has over 15 keys all i have on it are the keys that are on my kb (like f keys, space, esc, etc.
Can we get some sort of clarification on this please Mistryl??!!??
I am about to start using a freshly purchased Belkin Nostromo N52 SpeedPad, it is hardware and programable. The way I see it it is no different to my keyboard that also has extra programable keys!!
However, I would not want to be banned for something as trivial as some extra keys on a GamePad...
I used my g keys to just change them to f keys, much more comphortable, i don't see how that alters the game files or anything in the game whatsoever, so will I be banned for continueing to do that? If so thats lame.
I'd say give Mistryl a few days to get feedback herself, then we can probably expect to hear from her about it.
If you need an immediate answer, though, may I recommend e-mailing [email protected] and asking them? They tend to have a few more of the technical answers, and I'm pretty sure that's who Mistryl would be talking too anyway.
you can make endless cycles if you know what your doing with these program keys macros.
like chain marcos together etc crafting etc. But to be honest NCSoft is nit picking these people arent botting they are just streamlining boring or hard to do routines with modern keyboard layouts. Other games like WoW DoW LoTR:BFM have custom keyboards or programs you can download to customize programmable keyboards to do shortcuts and chain macros.
BTW i would repeal the ban and in your repeal tell them to evalate it to top tier gm's there is 4 of them and then HGM Spam is there boss. However top tier gms/HGMSpam say your ban is good thats it your done.
majority of keyboards come with software to utilize many built in features. being a keyboard is required to play this game and is in fact hardware that comes with factory software to properly use this the EULA cannot nor can NC Soft say you cannot use such said hardware to play game.
just because a keyboard has built in macros features does not mean they cannot be used in game when third party programs are depicted as software developed by a company/person meant to manipulate the origional intent of a existing software. being the keyboard is using a software desighned for that keyboard utilizing functions and not adding to an origional desighn or function means it is perfectly legal
for them to ban a account for using hardware based software is not only fascist but a violation of their own terms of service
Mystryl, you have to be one of the nicest and most responsive cm's I've ever known, across all the mmo's I've played (and I've played quite a few, since 2001).
I'd say give Mistryl a few days to get feedback herself, then we can probably expect to hear from her about it.
If you need an immediate answer, though, may I recommend e-mailing [email protected] and asking them? They tend to have a few more of the technical answers, and I'm pretty sure that's who Mistryl would be talking too anyway.
The easiest way for them to deal with this is to say what they have said before: if your character is doing anything (such as fighting, running, in-game shouts, etc.), and they pm you multiple times and you say nothing, you are running an illegal program. The fact that some keyboards allow more functions than others should not be a violation of anything -- the key is using ANYTHING that makes you do SOMETHING when YOU are not there.
... the key is using ANYTHING that makes you do SOMETHING when YOU are not there.
Thats how I understand it.
Regardless of hardware or software, if your in game character is doing something automatically at regular intervals (ie. shouting sell shops), with you not being there at the keys when caught, your guilty.
That is what im hoping the answer will be, cause I know many of my friends have this keyboard to and only use it to remap f keys into the g keys. I've never seen anyone actually map a macro that loops and will create auto-mated play but hell what do I know i'm just 1 person, others might be able to find a way. Hopefully they will allow us to continue using the g keys for just a single key remap, not a multi key, if that is even detectable on there side or not to see if its 1 or multi i have no clue.
This thread has raised many opinions, good. Anyway, I count on NCSoft that they do the right way.
BWT. You dont need piece of tape, just put pen between buttons, or Ice Cream stick or lollipop etc. Done that too :)
Actually I have done many HD based things, Im not sure why I was banned. They only told me that I use 3rd party software so I think it's that G11 software.
Actually when I think of it, on Nostromo it could be possible to make macro doing something like: you open craft window by hand, position mouse over Craft button and start it. What it does is it emulates mouse click several times, then alt-tab to next window, presses F key several times (as recharge), alt-tab back to crafter, click ... rinse repeat. If you leave it unattended for few hours and GM knocks on your screen, you are banned. And even if you watch it, it's at least suspicios
On the other hand macro that pops 3 CP pots for you when you press a key so you can save hotbar spot ...
That's the grey area, no wonder GMs are not sure.
Actually when I think of it, on Nostromo it could be possible to make macro doing something like: you open craft window by hand, position mouse over Craft button and start it. What it does is it emulates mouse click several times, then alt-tab to next window, presses F key several times (as recharge), alt-tab back to crafter, click ... rinse repeat. If you leave it unattended for few hours and GM knocks on your screen, you are banned. And even if you watch it, it's at least suspicios
On the other hand macro that pops 3 CP pots for you when you press a key so you can save hotbar spot ...
That's the grey area, no wonder GMs are not sure.
I went over this with Spam a few months ago, because thats what i was looking to do, heres the Support response.
__________________________________________________
Response (GM Spam) 11/28/2006 01:22 PM
Dear Sean,
Thank you for contacting Lineage II support. You are welcome to use a nostromo pad to play Lineage II. You must be very careful about programming the pad to automate game play. We request that you only use the nostromo while present at your computer. We understand that many player look for ways to make game play easier by automating certain aspects of the game but if your automation ever interferes with other game play it will become a problem.
The best rule of thumb to follow is to make sure that any macro you make for your nostromo requires your presence to operate.
You will not be punished for what you have done in the past, please just make sure you are present at your computer in the future.
Thank You,
Lineage II support
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Customer (removed) 11/27/2006 10:36 AM
I would just like confirmation on something regarding a Nostromo N52 GamePad.
I know the GamePad itself is allowed to use, but I have a question about its macro capibility's. Recently i found that i could also bind mouse clicks, not just the F keys. What i did, was made a macro that left clicks once every 10 seconds. I was going to use it to make shots and such while I was using my 2nd account to recharge, without having to switch screens. This also could be used to make shots while AFK though, and i did it once to test it throughout the night while my charector was in sell shop mode.
Basically, my question is whether or not this type of function is allowed. If it's not, and is a bannable offense, then i obviously wont use it. There isn't a clear statement about game pad functions being a 3rd party program that falls under a EULA violation. Like i said though, i did use the macro a few times while i was testing it, and want to make sure that my account will not be in jeopardy sometime down the road just because i wanted to make some stupid soul shots ^^
As I understand the botting rule, every technique to automate actions, either linear or cyclic, that go beyond the single run of an ingame makro, are botting.
This would include any kind of "automatically drinking a CP potion every 20 secs for 5 minutes" and "automatically recast the buff makro every 19 minutes until keyboard toggle is deactivated". It would not include any kind of makro, that calls up to 11 in game commands and does not reactivate itself automatically.
That is MY understanding of the wording and the spirit of the rules.
Spiritual Kitten
You're probably right, though in many PvP movies, you'll still see auto-CP usage going on blatantly.
And all who is writing "Dont whine you b0tter" -> Im not whining, just warning everyone else. And using Hardware based sofware (part of keyboard) in my opinion is not b0tting...
Botting = macros
Hardware based macros = macros
Even if you wheren't botting... you still broke the same rules that they do. I am sorry that you got banned though.
And all who is writing "Dont whine you b0tter" -> Im not whining, just warning everyone else. And using Hardware based sofware (part of keyboard) in my opinion is not b0tting...
Botting = macros
Hardware based macros = macros
Even if you wheren't botting... you still broke the same rules that they do. I am sorry that you got banned though.
So when I used the game macros to target myself and use a heal spell I'm really botting? :eek:
And all who is writing "Dont whine you b0tter" -> Im not whining, just warning everyone else. And using Hardware based sofware (part of keyboard) in my opinion is not b0tting...
Botting = macros
Hardware based macros = macros
Even if you wheren't botting... you still broke the same rules that they do. I am sorry that you got banned though.
as HGMspam posted, keyboard macros, and gamepad macros are okay...
I've never heard HGM spam approve of third party software. Years ago... in regards to Nostromos (or something) I distinctly remember a mod/ gm saying that they would rather not allow these because they know people could abuse this privilege to have a valid excuse for their botting or try to use it to get out of a ban.
So when I used the game macros to target myself and use a heal spell I'm really botting? :eek:
An ignorant person would go out of their way to look for the exception. A stupid person would use an an example they know is wrong to make their point.
An ignorant person would go out of their way to look for the exception. A stupid person would use an an example they know is wrong to make their point.
I'm stupid for using sarcasm to point out that using the game's built-in macro is not botting? :p
Ingame macro system was given to us. Like all the charging up for a Glad, my husband play's one and has found a macro for it works wonders. I have one for assist in a group much easier than manual. But for me being able to set my buff's and heals on my SE was a dream and meant I no longer had to say did I miss something on someone.
The GM team let me know that they recommend refraining from using any hardware or software that allows you to automate your game play beyond the in-game macro system. Please contact the GM team through the web site if you have more specific questions. Thanks!
The GM team let me know that they recommend refraining from using any hardware or software that allows you to automate your game play beyond the in-game macro system. Please contact the GM team through the web site if you have more specific questions. Thanks!
So does this mean that we can be banned for using it even if we are never afk? Or do the responses like these still hold true:
Response (GM Cykor) 07/11/2006 11:54 AM
Greetings,
The Nostromo SpeedPad is not considered in violation of our rules, unless it is used to automate actions for your character when you are away from the keyboard. Using it to repeat shouts and/or crafts while you are not present is considered 3rd party software use and is against our rules. As long as you are present at the keyboard while using the joystick functions, you are safe and within the rules.
The GM team let me know that they recommend refraining from using any hardware or software that allows you to automate your game play beyond the in-game macro system. Please contact the GM team through the web site if you have more specific questions. Thanks!
So it is against the rules, or it isn't?
I'm confused. I'll contact the gm team like you said, but thats kinda vague.
We ban for bots. It is that simple. Don’t muddle the discussion with Ventrilo/Teamspeak, AV programs, or even Keyboard Macros. The makers of Ventrilo did not have to decrypt Lineage II to make their product work. AV programs may scan game packets for particular algorithms but I don't think Norton wants to take a castle or get better at the manor system. As for fancy keyboards and mice with macro software... you will have a GM knock on your screen before you are banned for that. Honestly, if your keyboard macro runs 9 accounts at the same time you need to go out and get a programming job 'cuz you got skillz.
But still, we didn't get a straight answer this go around. Just that the GM team wants us to refrain from using macros beyond what the game itself is able to provide. And Spam's answer wasn't really an answer at all, just a "maybe we will, maybe we won't...but we'll at least talk to ya" sort of thing.
Is it "illegal" for one person at the keyboard, on one (1, uno, etc) account to use a keyboard macro as the G15 allows you...yes or no?
Your probably safe to use it as like fkeys are, just make your say g1 like your pressing f1, if you make it like type /assist blabla then /attack and repeat for 5 minutes straight nonstop you would be in the wrong, atleast thats the way i understand it.
Your probably safe to use it as like fkeys are, just make your say g1 like your pressing f1
Actually that still uses macros within the keyboard. The macro just maps the single keypress rather than doing a combination of keys.
Nah, I still do not know if "/useshortcut 8 6 /useshortcut 8 6 /useshortcut 8 6" will make me banned :(
If you read the official response then the answer is simple. If you type in "/useshortcut 8 6" manually thats ok. If you use an in game macro to do "/useshortcut 8 6" one or more times thats ok. If you use something else to do this then its bannable.
I dislike that I can't use my G-keys ingame. I had them mapped out as emotes (/sociallaugh, /sit, /stand, etc), actions (/pickup, /attack, /assist) and as hotbar shortcuts (Alt-F1 through Alt-F5) so I could better utilize skills during pvp.
Without the keys operational, I can still play, but it's uncomfortable, and I've resigned myself to taking twice as long to do the same thing I used to do (It crams my hand to have to hit f1 to pickup crap all the time, and picking it up with mouse takes time). Perhaps some software could be set in place to limit the *length* of macros... just an idea...-