Deleveling in an important function in this game as Adena is as necessary as air is to a person. I say this as we all have alt dwarfs to use as mule farmers.
I myself have one dwarf just for this purpose and i wonder if our fellow korean players do the same thing? Matter of fact i wonder what the development team thinks of all this....Is this in the spirit of the design? Do they see this as something negative? Is this a sign that something is wrong?
Really, why would anyone have to delevel? Isn't it counterproductive in a way?
I wonder about this as one of my dwarfs are getting close to that level range where he will need to drop a few levels.
I have never tried deleveling because getting that exp back is unbearable. I tend to strongly participate in offical events to get adena enough to support and once I did get that adena from events, I start being smart with by playing the market.
I wish they could change that though because especially for new players, money is very hard to come by based on prices of the items. I feel sooo bad when I see so many under equipped players, it makes me feel sad and if I have the money, I try to equip them with atleast something a bit better. I have not been to Gludin in a while though :/
I've delevelled when I've wanted to keep chars at a certain raid boss level range. You can gain a level or 2 in no time flat at 20-30.
As for money with new players, it's never been easier. Each noob town has quests that give you 15k+ ss/sps, noobie buffs that last an hour, cheaper npc equipment upgrades, and sometimes even halfway decent weapon/armor rewards quests.
Do all that with no shot quests, no noob stuff, no equipment upgrades (pre c3) and get back to me ;)
I did do it pre c3 :D it was a lot easier because player prices were a lot less than store prices.
I guess the reason people are underequipped now is cause they use soulshots and not doing the quests
i delevelled to camp the B grade bosses with my clan once upon a time. then they changed the way raiding worked and since that time my clan dissolved.
what did it accomplish? outfitted most of my clan in B gear that was used on most of them up until the high 60s. ive changed servers since then and only via msn do i see them anymore.
i delevelled 61-49 twice. never used the B gear i got from them and gave it away when i switched servers.
in C gear i was driving off most of the competing B grade raid parties. killed the farmer clan that camped the ant queen once (before it gave a ring) and that was the height of the glory days.
since then, i constantly delevel. pvp becomes zerg somewhere between 52-70. if you can grind out those levels, youre a bot. if you dont, youre a lowbie. but even then, youre a bot so it is surely fair to pk you until you switch servers :rolleyes:
I've never had to delevel and wouldn't. I made a dwarf to make a bit of money back when D shots were still a viable way to make money.
I felt that was preferable to deleveling.
But now what? That was way back when like you said.
Just from what my character is seeing. He's leveling at a faster rate then the adena thats coming in, so i have to keep lowering him.
You have to delevel to make adena in this game. You just have to... And i wonder how the development team feels about this :)
You could manor. Or you could learn the market, start finding out what is hot then seeing what deals you can get. Then sell them at either market value or slightly higher.
I once purchased a soul bow (can't remember what for.. maybe 59 million) and then put it on sale for 5 million more than it usually was worth. My thinking was that players who buy soulbows also like to enchant. So one thing will lead to another and they will soon have to buy another soul bow.
I then saw another player selling for less than myself. There were only two soul bows on the market that day, mine and the other player's.
So I bought his and did the same thing. Sold them both the next day.
10 million profit.
This is not to say that you are going to have to go out and buy soul bows. But you can look for things such as Homonkulous swords or even hard to find mats. Or just mats that people always want.
Scroll Enchants are another decent seller depending on where you are in the market's cycle.
Heck, you can even make a dwarf, do some d grade shots (for a little extra money and even just make d crystals out of cheaply bougth D grade items.
Those will sell.
I once found some cheap d grade that someone was dying to get rid of. Bought it, crystalized it and just left the sell store up for a week. eventually it was all gone and I made a nice little profit.
Another thing I've been doing recently is selling my mats. I hate crafting. It actually makes me want to log out.
However, I am constantly getting all these mats. So I just find the "real Players" who are hoping to purchase these mats in order to craft and I sell to their buy stores. They get their mats at a very good price and I get porting money.
Also, I did recently *cough, cough* get a dark crystal top and bottom in Blazing swamp this past weekend. Both within a minute or two of each other.
Hopefully they have sold by the time I get home (if I didn't get diconnected :mad: )
Just from what my character is seeing. He's leveling at a faster rate then the adena thats coming in, so i have to keep lowering him.
You have to delevel to make adena in this game. You just have to... And i wonder how the development team feels about this :)
you dont HAVE to delevel to afford the next useful thing. you have 7 spots for characters and you can use them all. raid bosses are worth delevling for if you have a group of people that you know you can do these with. deleveling in the 25-35 range used to be quicker than leveling a new toon to that range but now with everyone having newbie buffs and increased hp regen in newbie areas the opposite is true.
I was a hoping it wouldn't turn into an all about me thread, but oh well :)
Ok jkoster, you have 20,000 adena to work with.... Work your magic.
ready? set? here we go!!
500k at your fingertips in three quick moves; youre still in orcland on your monk? do the walk of fate quest for a free EAD.
on your scavenger, try spoiling in Red Rock Ridge. varnish spoils, 1x mobs, iron ores drop, most are weak pdef. for me, 3 hrs hunting yields 1-2 level and 150+ of both iron and varnish (and a handful of bones) (for a combined quick sale at 800a each of nearly 300k.)
any toon can fish; your monk can do the O'Fulle's special bait quest and its corollary quest for an elven ring from the chest caught with the 4 special lures.
bongo 500k in 5hrs of combined fishing, hunting, and questing.
I was a hoping it wouldn't turn into an all about me thread, but oh well :)
Ok jkoster, you have 20,000 adena to work with.... Work your magic.
ready? set? here we go!!
500k at your fingertips in three quick moves; youre still in orcland on your monk? do the walk of fate quest for a free EAD.
on your scavenger, try spoiling in Red Rock Ridge. varnish spoils, 1x mobs, iron ores drop, most are weak pdef. for me, 3 hrs hunting yields 1-2 level and 150+ of both iron and varnish (and a handful of bones) (for a combined quick sale at 800a each of nearly 300k.)
any toon can fish; your monk can do the O'Fulle's special bait quest and its corollary quest for an elven ring from the chest caught with the 4 special lures.
bongo 500k in 5hrs of combined fishing, hunting, and questing.
Yes not bad if u dont have anything yet but in 3 hours i can yield about 3000-4000 crops of red or chilly coda without having any buffers healers help with lvl 20 char. All you will need is near top d grade equip and a wolf with top equip.
for 4000 crops of red or chilly coda you should be able to get at least 2000 varnish or about 250-300 ori ore if the manor is set up right if its set up very good you can double the amonts of mats u will get.
As for the deleveling thing i did on my main to get enoght sp for clan. In the early chronicles that was the only way to obtain em if you wanted to lvl one early.
Now i do delevel on my manor toon from time to time. Its quite costy now since u have to buy the scrolls but then again its still worth it.
I've never heared of that area.... Where is it? :confused:
It's the strip of mountains that seperate the coast from the wastelands south of Gludin. (You want to be on the Wasteland sides of the mountains to find the mobs in that area.)
If you know where the Lizardmen Raid boss is south of Gludin, next to the poisonous spiders, North of the Langk Lizardmen, just run up the mountains at that point. Angle towards the wastelands, but stay on the ridge. (Don't drop down into the wasteland itself.) I think the Ragraman raid boss is at the north end of Red Rock Ridge here. (Big Orc Overlord looking raid boss.)
Once there, just follow the ridge south depending on your level. Mobs should be something like 28-35 IIRC. You can pretty much level to 40 on the top mobs if you want. (Warlike Tyrants and some Mahum type mobs..)
Reasons to Delevel:
Festival/ Raid alts who need to stay a certain level
Spoilers spoiling for specific items/ grade ( like if you upgrade your spoil... you are stuck spoiling s grade, you can no longer spoil mobs that do a grade )
Manor characters banking on specific mobs
Farming in general. Learn skills... delevel 9 times... and start farming for maximum efficiency. Need mats or easier seal stones? This is the way to go.
well i hate the delvling system
my destro sub is the first toon i delvled on and heres why
i dont want another sub, i think you should get your first sub to 75 become nobless then go back to main and never play the thing again
so haveing established that i dont care if the toon is lvl 0 or 80 heres why i delvled
my SEs sub is a new warcrier, im not happy with the capabilities of her main class so i decided her sub will be a high lvl warcrier
it took a while for her to get the quest done so in that time i lvled the destro to 48 so i could have some extra killing power to lvl her
problem is if i am 48 and she is 40 she wont be getting much of the xp
so thats the first time delvl reason
second reason, i got in party with another person and asked if it was ok if i kept her in party
he said it was cool but feeling bad for takeing so much of his xp i figured i would delvl abit to get him a little extra
my method for delvling was to drag a dion guard to the centre of town and let it kill me
two problems with that, every few minuets it would run back to its spot and i would have to go get it again
second problem is the death penalty as well as loseing my 50% xp i lost over 500k in recovery scrolls which isnt really cool if you make a toon to make adena
if you ask me they should just introduce a system that delvls you to a set lvl
well i hate the delvling system
my destro sub is the first toon i delvled on and heres why
i dont want another sub, i think you should get your first sub to 75 become nobless then go back to main and never play the thing again
so haveing established that i dont care if the toon is lvl 0 or 80 heres why i delvled
my SEs sub is a new warcrier, im not happy with the capabilities of her main class so i decided her sub will be a high lvl warcrier
it took a while for her to get the quest done so in that time i lvled the destro to 48 so i could have some extra killing power to lvl her
problem is if i am 48 and she is 40 she wont be getting much of the xp
so thats the first time delvl reason
second reason, i got in party with another person and asked if it was ok if i kept her in party
he said it was cool but feeling bad for takeing so much of his xp i figured i would delvl abit to get him a little extra
my method for delvling was to drag a dion guard to the centre of town and let it kill me
two problems with that, every few minuets it would run back to its spot and i would have to go get it again
second problem is the death penalty as well as loseing my 50% xp i lost over 500k in recovery scrolls which isnt really cool if you make a toon to make adena
if you ask me they should just introduce a system that delvls you to a set lvl
in fishing they have pots for deleveling your fishing level for an hour. You can go all the way down to level1-3 range.
I know the same system wouldn't work but maybe a similar outcome could be achieved.
You want to delevel without exp penalties? Go to a siege untagged. Hit a couple of time anyone outside the city (or simply walk out of safe zone) and the rest will follow (lot of quick 4% deaths without penalty).
I delevel if I manage to buy too much seeds that make most profit (7k chilly coda, 5k chilly cobol or so) and I want to process them all before I grow too high for them.
You want to delevel without exp penalties? Go to a siege untagged. Hit a couple of time anyone outside the city (or simply walk out of safe zone) and the rest will follow (lot of quick 4% deaths without penalty).
takes a long time to walk out there
try that for delvling 8 lvls :/
I've never heared of that area.... Where is it? :confused:
between forgotten temple, NOS, and the wasteland. warlike tyrants drop d grade armor (breastplates) at a fair rate, you can bet on getting a full drop from them after a while, but at best thats only going to give you some 600ish d crystals and the spoils here are meh (mithril boots parts are okay if you have the rec). the lesser warlike tyrants use to use a bleed skill that really hurt, and this area is always overrun by 2-3 groups of farmers/bots in parties of 5+. "good" spoils are enchant scrolls and crystal dagger blades (also completely overrun by bots). everything else is more easily gotten by manor.
PS: if you have 20k and you have a character in the 25-30 level range, go into NOS and look for a bot party. when you find one, spend 10k on chilly coda seeds for gludio area then return to NOS and seed their mobs (dont use money on ports, use /unstuck instead of /soe). trade fruits in for type 2 and hope that the buy price is something like 150+ (i dont know what server you're on so i cant really check this). /report them when you leave and train them if you feel like it. basically even without drops on death, the best way to make money is by griefing other players.
PPS: at 25 adena per seed, 400 seeds can turn into 4k fruits, NPC value of ori ore is 3k (assuming it hasnt changed since C1) yielding about 200 ori ore, which sell for about 10k each to buy shops or more if you set up a sell shop. grats on your first 2mil. dunno where u could spend the other 10k though :confused:
takes a long time to walk out there
try that for delvling 8 lvls :/
8 levels? You have it EASY.
My 'farming' char finally used up the last of it's highest level seeds and it's L40 now...I need to drop back down to Level 22!!! to start using it's lowest level seeds again. :/
Dying 18 levels off takes forever and thats just when your still in "reasonable" range of higher % loss per death.
its actually a pretty good question
if L2 was played the way it was meant to be played im not sure if there would be a need to delvl for adena
delvling to help a clanner lvl though kinda suggests its not a bad idea, just not sure if thats what NC intended
As for money with new players, it's never been easier. Each noob town has quests that give you 15k+ ss/sps, noobie buffs that last an hour, cheaper npc equipment upgrades, and sometimes even halfway decent weapon/armor rewards quests.
Do all that with no shot quests, no noob stuff, no equipment upgrades (pre c3) and get back to me ;)
No offense here Ellie but in my view, it would be EASIER to do it without all the newbie enhancements because everyone would HAVE to do it. So, in that vein, saying "well you don't have to use newbie buffs or do quests" wouldn't apply because it would only be hampering the player refusing to use them (since everyone else is).
I'd agree that it's most likely easier now on the surface. But is it really, overall? You still have lots of people who level to 20 or 30 and have next to no money because they don't know the stuff that lurks below the surface and that's pretty much required nowadays, isn't it? I've been here a week and in that time I've seen no less than a dozen threads like this (http://boards.lineage2.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=836424&an=0&page=0#Post8 36424) and I've taken some kind of wisdom from every one of them. But not everyone does that kind of research and they may not run into folks ingame willing to show them until it's almost too late (20s or 30s), which is when I think deleveling would be an attractive option (go back and fix the mistakes you made along the way). So yeah, it's easier in some ways but A LOT harder in others (I notice the same thing in EQ1, another top-heavy MMO). Also, please don't forget that you old timers have the benefit of perspective, which can be HUGE in the non-easy mode MMOs (i.e. L2, EVE, EQ1, etc).
Do you all think deleveling is against the visions of the developer? And if it is.... Why haven't they taken steps to correct it?
It can't be against the vision of the developers. It can only be an unforeseen circumstance. I daresay any MMO with XP loss that can cause the loss of level can find this to be a course of action players will take for various reasons. Some with this model (like EverQuest 1) make it counterproductive by placing the best content and income generation at the end of the game so deleveling is only harming the deleveler in many cases. There's also the alternate advancement system that allows players to stop leveling altogether. But, in a game like L2 where there are a myriad of reasons to be in a particular level range, deleveling is the only means of doing that with one character. I don't think there's anything the developers can do at this point that wouldn't involve totally revamping the XP system (which could be a disaster more than a help). Maybe make it so that you can lose xp but never lose a level, but that would have repercussions as well (people would just delevel within a particular level instead of within a level range).
But I don't think there exists an elegant solution to this perceived problem. Any possible solution presented is going to have its ugly underbelly. An XP debt system would typically alleviate some of the financial reasons for deleveling but then that makes death meaningless and only applies a bandaid to the problem (people will still die repeatedly to load up on debt so they can maximize their earnings over a particular level range. See City of Heroes/Villains). Besides that, in a game as complex and overtly difficult as L2, there's really no reason for alts except for those circumstances listed previously in this thread (raid boss alt, crafter alt, manor farming alt, spoil alt, etc).
I think this is a pretty good example of players finding a way to do what they want that the developers may not have thought of (or may not have believed would be the route taken).
Ok, well I don't see how that makes sense. It took longer for me to make money in prelude/c1, then it does now because unlike then, I have buffs for killing faster, I have shots for killing faster, and zero cost for the shots. You'd be foolish not to take advantage of the benefits added into game over time. Every new character, now, can get these benefits, not just the lowest level char you first created.
I've done 2 chars on my buffer account (c4, c5) from level 1 so they didn't have an outside buffer zooming them along either. I actually enjoy the lower level content.
Do you all think deleveling is against the visions of the developer? And if it is.... Why haven't they taken steps to correct it?
No, I don't think it is what the developers had in mind.
You don't have to delevel. You might have to make a dwarf but you don't have to delevel. If that is how players feel it needs to be, so be it. But I don't think you need that.
Heck... just hunt greens with no shots then.
edit: I will say this, if you have delevelled to make adena, tell me how much you have made with a dwarf alt, played the market, or manored. Also, do you port a lot.
If you say you haven't done any of these things and possibly use ports a bit too much then there is an answere right there.
i belive that deleveling is the symptom of a weakspot in the Vision of the developers. That it is also an indicator that the economy is sorta broke...
blame it on the botters
You make good points about the reprocussions of changes to the XP system in L2 but I dare say it is a horribly designed MMO, IMO (excuse the overuse of acronyms). Do I think it's fun? Yes. I, however, don't know how long this will last.
I played EverQuest (1) from 01 to late 06 and when I started playing it, it was harder than Lineage II, IMO. It took me over a year to get to level 51 when level 60 was the max level, and that was playing a Necromancer (the only class that can go from 1 - max level [whatever max is] and NEVER EVER have to join a group). I was in one of the top guilds in my server, I had near maxxed AAs when I "retired". For some reason, that game was always fun. Lineage II missed quite a few things that other MMOs (EQ, WoW, etc.) do very well.
I just started playing L2 less than 3 weeks ago, my Human Wizard is level 34 and I'm at the tip of the iceberg as far as the rediculous design decision that developers have made in this game. There are a few things that irk me. I will just say... They always say you never know how something is until you don't have it. Well, as much as I started thinking how much EQ was boring out on me, it seems like an amusement park when I log in after playing Lineage II. My qualms?
1. Drop Rate - At level 34 I've killed tens of thousands of mobs and have not seen one useful thing drop, except from a raid boss. Adena drops are horrible. I'm fighting mobs that "con" white and pink to me but they are dropping less adena than mobs were dropping in Elven Ruins at level 15. I don't really want any rare drops (armor, etc.). Just something that will sell to a vendor for more than 100 Adena each. 100 Adena in Lineage 2 has less value than 1 Copper Piece in EverQuest.
2. Solo/Group Content - Most players can solo to high levels, and the only reason why they'd group is to farm raid bosses. But, there really is no reason to even farm the raid bosses (more on that later), cause all their toons are rich 1 minute after they create it. I've never seen a game where players can reach a new "gear level" and an hour later they are running around in the best and most over enchanted gear for their grade...
It's very bad to see nukers running around at high level killing high level exp mobs with 1-3 shots. In EverQuest, anyone soloing a high level exp mob posts pictures for bragging rights – and they probably has some of the best gear in the game (with the best augs, with probably maxxed AAs). I think this is the reason why leveling is so frustrating in L2, it's not a balanced game, PvE-wise. They had to make the mobs yield extremely small numbers of exp (respective to level) to compensate from the relative ease it is to kill them. Lineage II also needs to introduce the concept of NO DROP gear and items, IMO – to stop people from abusing/misusing/degrading the economy. High End players should not be able to farm high end mobs and sell drops to other players for a lot of cash – because there is nothing much to look forward to after you have that gear (aside from sieges and PvP – Pking for drops, etc.). You go though all this insane grinding, you should be willing to go get it yourself, not order some Adena from the Internet and buy it at a nice price, etc.
3. Spell/Resist System - Lineage 2 has one of the worst Spell/Resist systems of any MMO I've played (EQ, WoW, FFXI, etc.). If they had actually pulled their heads out of their bum when they designed this aspect of the game, they would not had had a need to put in SpS/SS in the game - other games implement this in much better ways. They also create skills with (what seems) the sole purpose is to keep the player wasting money and farming over and over again (Summons and D/C Crys? /grumbles/). I find myself in the cycle where I have to keep a butload of SoE's and everytime I make ~10k from mob drops, I have to SoE and buy 10k worth of BspS. I heard regular SpS (presumably cheaper) existed, but I have yet to see anybody with any, or crafting any. I guess the DWARVES don't find it profitable... They are such greedy ********.
4. Armor - You have quite a few armor slots, but they totally failed by making you have to wear a full set of it to get the benefits from it. This is why players can jack the prices up to insane heights and actually benefit from it. Buy it piece by piece and you may never finish the set, at those prices. Full sets are insanely expensive. Other games overcome this with the introduction of focus effects and skill mods. Do you want an Anguish Bracer or a Xxeric bracer? Do you want max HP or Max Mana on your necromancer? Which belt do you want (one has pet focus, one has fire dmg focus, etc.)? Spells are brought/dropped from normal exp, named, and raid bosses (Ancient Spells). There are aspects of those games that encourage you to play it to its full potential. Lineage 2 has none of this. It's really a boring, monotonous game.
5.Dwarves Only Crafing Race – I'm all for certain classes having things they excel at (and races too). Enchanters in EverQuest are the only class that can obtain the Jewelry mastery Aas. That's fine. But having crafting as a whole being a exclusive to one race, is crap. Dwarves monopolize the system, run prices up, buy out those who sell lower and raise the prices up by 20+%. It's horrible. One person was selling Dbsps for 45a/ea. and a dorf bought her out and jacked the price up to 67 adena. Every store in Dion that had it listed in the tag was out, so I'm guessing this dorf just brought out the whole town and is making some pretty good money at the moment.
6.Ebaying – I have NEVER played an MMO where people IN GAME were actually so comfortable ebaying that they are willing to tell you (in All Channel) what to do if you say something along the lines of “I need to farm cash, I'm out of BspS.” Actually have people telling me [removed]. WTF?! In EverQuest, if you did this someone would report you (sending SOE the last ten lines of your text in the chat window) and you'd be banned in a day. They did a banning spree 1.5 or so years ago where they rerolled anyone who received anything from any toon that was banned for ebaying/exploiting/macroing/botting/warp hacking/etc. and suspended or banned them. I can't believe what I'm looking at sometimes, bots everywhere. Keeping areas clear, groups of them. What “professional” game company actually allows this (other than NCSoft – not professional I've found out however). These bots also intefere with the leveling experience of new players, because they are usually in some of the best XP spots for that level range, keeping it clean of mobs.
I will most probably be playing EQ again hardcore after this month is over. Just wanna get to level 40 and do those quests so I didn't feel like I've wasted my time/money. There is so much wrong with the game and how it's run that it's almost a stress test to play it and actually have any fun.
Don't compare Lineage II to EverQuest. Comparing it to any of those popular MMOs (EQ/WoW/etc.) makes it look like it doesn't belong in the genre - IMHO.
Do you think the 'instant-gratification' mindset plays into the need to delevel?
That is, "I want the best as soon as it is available, so I have to take time now to make sure I have it" rather than "Okay, I can buy one piece now, time to start saving for the next."
Do you think the 'instant-gratification' mindset plays into the need to delevel?
That is, "I want the best as soon as it is available, so I have to take time now to make sure I have it" rather than "Okay, I can buy one piece now, time to start saving for the next."
instant gratification is the conscious expenditure of effort to make the time interval between wanting something and getting it as short as possible.
so... it would depend upon the individuals goal. Is the goal stuff or is it level ?
In my case, it isn't stuff. To be quite honest, a friend of mine let me use a set of top D grade gear + jewels when I got level 20. They say the game is gear dependent, but that's only the PvP part. When you are trying to get to a level where the game is actually interesting (Level 40 and beyond, after the second class change), there is a huge hamper. Leveling is terribly inefficient. As a nuker, not using spiritshots while grinding basically makes me 2/3 less inefficient when leveling. It also makes it at least 4x more dangerous. You do less dmg and spells cast much slower, you also have a higher rate of failing a skill when you are facing yellow/ping mobs. Mobs have more chance to interrupt you (esp archers) and get their spells off (mob crits a nuke on you for 560 dmg when u have 800'ish HP, not good).
It's not called instant gratification, it's called balanced risk/reward system that Lineage 2 is lacking. I'm sure Sieges are fun, but after doing the same thing for so long in the "end game" I question how much fun people actually have doing it. I'd reckon that half the people in the "end-game" play primarily for financial reasons. They simply have too much cash invested in the game (buying Adena on eBay, etc.) to simply just give up and start over somewhere else.
In EverQuest you can be the richest person in the game, but what can you do with it? Raid Gear is NO DROP/NO TRADE (can't be sold/transfered), as well as anything that any end-game player would want. The grind is about the same as LIneage 2 (not only do you need 75 levels, but hundreds and hundreds of AA to be of any quality to any raiding guild). The quests actually give you XP, or cash, or gear, or a special AA. Every expansion has a story behind it and brings something of quality to the game (level increases, spells/AA's, ports, maps, epic quests, etc.).
The biggest things about L2 is the huge, uninstanced world. Everything is becomming of poorer and poorer quality compared to games like EQ, which have evolved the graphics engine, balanced/unbalanced the classes, changed the UI, added notable end-game content, etc. throughout its life. FTR, L2's graphics now pale in comparison to EverQuest.
Hope L3 is more like a traditional MMO (with the L2 PvP content, of course). I may play it when it's released - if ever.
Also, the instant gratification syndorme that you are talking about is another flaw of the game (no level linits on gear even in a specific grade, etc. encourages twinking and not working for what you want). Deleveled people being able to use skills that are of higher level than their character, etc. Lineage 2 is simply an unbalanced game because it was designed by ******s who know nexto nothing about MMO game design. SOE makes NCSoft look like sad noobs - sorry.
You better bet that EVERYTIME a new MMO is released, people say it will kill EQ, but EQ is still going strong. There has to be a real, honest, explanation for that. It just simply blows the socks off of most other games in its genre. WoW has alot of subscribers, but most of those are casual players who cannot invest the time to advance in games like EQ/L2 - that's why you can level to max level doing just quests in that game (ewwww)...
And to think that the subscription for L2 is more than for EverQuest...
Because I read it was fun, hence, I just finished the 14 day trial and just want to get to level 40 just to feel like I actually achieved something in the game. Then, back to EQ (also, like I said).
Do you agree/disagree and have anything to add to what I wrote?
Other than that Rhetorical Question???
I have played most if not all of the popular MMOs in NA and this is the first time I've actually felt burnt out so short after starting a game. I don't even play L2 as much as I did EQ. I only play about 20-30 hours a week. When I was playing EQ Hardcore, I'd play for 70-80 hours a week consistently.
P.S. Ever heard the phrase, "Don't Knock it til you Try it"???
having never played everquest, you havent sold me on it yet.
if i told you cliff diving was fun, would you do that? if i tol you creating a +16 weapon was fun, would you try it? if i said delevelling to re-earn cash was the ****, would you do it once?
point is, playing the game as you see fit to play it is fun. if you pk noobs and call it pancakes, be my guest. if you find end game content to be the only place to have fun, then by all means and god-speed.
if not acheiving your goals in this game ruined it for you, how about try another character? you rellyt dont have any idea about how complex the game can get nor of any idea of the scope of difficulty in the game if level 40 was your only goal.
just have a look at the library section of the site here. sift through its many many many weapons and armors and try and pick out a combination for a random class.
expand your knowledge of the game and youll have fun. i have no clue about AA's of everquest nor do i care; but i can see from your description that they are hard to come by and likely unlock some high level content.
similarly in lineage2, the higher you get, the harder and faster pvp becomes. at max level pvp becomes a speed-war. he who shoots first has more time to spam potions. he who casts fastest wins.
nuker fights can last between .5 seconds and 10 seconds depending the level and classes of each. 10 seconds is LOW level. it gets faster with each progressive gear grade.
its mind blowing how you choose 40 as a goal, and once you reach it are unwilling to proceed with the new skills of your class which become increasingly powerful inately and become more numerous with level.
you havent played lineage2 at all if all youve set out to to is grind to 40. if i ground out level 10 in everquest would that make me experienced enough to decline to play the game more? i bet i would be as powerless in that game as you are in this game. level 40 is nothing m8. your potential as a character peaks around 56 where the very famous pvp skills are.
everyone you know that told you ranged> melee meant only after level 56 where some crucial skills become part of pvp and pve. anyone that ever told you healers were gimp in pvp mean before level 56 where most of them get a mana burning skill that can cost the opponent the ability to cast his own crucial skills.
First of all, getting to level 40 in EQ, you actually have fun things to do. Even at low levels, there are FUN things to do. Named mobs that actually drop usable items, spells that actually seem innovative. No class in EQ goes through a raid/levels using only 1-3 of their spells. That's what makes the game fun, it is lacking in monotony. There's a huge difference, apples to oranges. I only chose level 40 because that's when the second class change is. I don't eBay, so it's going to be a hard road just getting there.
Every 10-20 levels there is a whole new set of armor quests to do in EQ. At level 49-51 you have your first epic weapon quest. You can start raiding fun content as early as level 45. The games are fundamentally different, and of totally different designs. Verant/SOE did a good job with EQ, and I'm not here to advertise for them. You'd prolly hate EQ's grind as much as I hate Lineage 2's, but as you grind, they do alot of things to actually make it fun.
Lineage 2's grind is an excuse for its end-game, EverQuest supplements its grind with content for all levels along the way. It's just as difficult, IMO, but you never really feel stress (unless camping an extremely rare spawn) because there are fun things to do.
IRT L2, for a game that puts os much hype into its clan system, there is little to actually do WITH your clan until you are of very high level. Doing basically the same thing over and over (castle sieges) should not be the reward for 1-2 years of exp grinding. Like I've said before, I have absolutely no problem with Lineage 2's experience system, it's the fact that it is terribly broken IRT risk vs reward that turns me (and apparently many other players - WOW, EQ, and EQ2 players, not to mention the other MMOs like GW, etc.) off. You get close to nothing for your time invested, not even much entertainment cause most of it is spent solo one-two shotting the same mobs over and over and over again.
In EverQuest, I have raided for over a month and not gotten a loot drop from a boss mob (apples to apples), but it was a fun game.
EverQuest had a PvP server similar to Lineage 2 back in the day (it was called Sullon Zek, it had no rules basically, and everytime you died, the killing player could loot an item off your corpse - in essence, even harder than L2 - of course they changed it to prevent many of L2's problems with griefing, etc.) adn that was na intsanced where gear actually mattered. The only time you could 1 shot anyone was with a Wizard Manaburn (left him offenseless and defenseless, so never used if a group confronted him, much less more than one person) and casters truly owned melee - especially classes like Necros with extreme resist adjusts on their DoT and/or DD spells.
Before I started playing Lineage two, I spend over two weeks reading L2blah, [censored], Warcry, reviews galore, etc. No one told me anything, I chose a nuker because I have never played a melee/ranger/archer type class in an MMO, and personally hate that play style
Also, PvP that lasts .5 to 10 seconds is not PvP, it's a joke (that's my opinion).
I thought the game was fun until I realized that if you aren't tweaked it's almost impossible to have fun playing it. Ever did a raid group and wiped when the boss mob was at like 10% HP and then everyone logged? Wondered what would have happened if you weren't poor as hell and actually had some spiritshots to double your damage? Every died and lost the exp you gained + 1% 4 times straight because you were out of SpS and couldn't get battle heal off in time while mob was hitting you (interrupted). 6% exp starts becomming a costly loss around level 30 (but you know that).
People keep saying have fun. But it's hard to have fun when a game seems like it was designed to prevent you from having fun - this coming from a person who plays MMOs like a full time job x 2. Lineage 2 makes me want to goto sleep at night, it doesn't make me want to stay up - cause there is not much to work for.
Every game has levels where casters get really good spells, that's a secondary component IMO. If the game is poorly designed, nothing else in that game can salvage the enjoyment its poor designed denies the players.
Just my opinion.
And FTR, I am NOT here to start a flame war, just giving my honest input. Else, I wouldn't waste time writing such long posts.
alright let me break it to you gently; your idea of fun is when gear and levels and skills all intertwine for a more intense character am i right?
well those that "twink" as you put it into different builds are actually creating enough diversity to keep the game and the players at that level all on their toes.
there are no cookiecutter bukds for ANYTHING past level 40. the armor and weapon and tattoo and buff combinations when juggled properly can generate enough interest from enemy pvp'ers to reroll. its happened now 5 times. first it was daggers. everyone got outright 1shot by their backstabs (when focus affected dagger land rate), then it was nukers (sorcs were greatest believe it or not.) and then gladiators for a bit while archers came into power. archers really were always powerful, but the Draconic bow amplified that immensely.
now in interlude, there arent really any classes that outshine others as excessively as before; some buffs have been reduced in power, others boosted. some say the gladiator is coming back into power with increased soulshot effect on their skills, some cry nerf.
the reasons youre giving me that EQ was a better mmo are for "beginning at level 45" for some things. well guess what pal, you yourself stopped HERE at 40. in another 12 levels in lineage2 you can start claiming youve played enough of the game/know enough of the game to cry boredom.
yes, grind is hard. having enough time to play pro though, you really are worried about what? getting 3 levels a night instead of 6? and please tell me how you underestimate/undervalue the gear you already own. there are ways in lineage2 to go crazy and burnout; the biggest and most prominent way is to grind your bum off.
tell ya what, instead of "finding the next greatest spot to level at" or "buying a round of bsps to burn while levelling" try RELAXING. the OP has been DEleveling in this game as he requires some extra cash for special items in C grade and beyond.
the OP has been playing longer than most of us here and hasnt yet hit forty. you did it in 14 days. thats enough gind to kill anyone on this game man. take it easy and chill with the "gottamakeittonextlevelorgonnagonutsandmaybegetthew ifetobuymorecoffeesoicangrindmore" syndrome.
by relaxing let me tell you what youll end up doing: first of all, youll start discovering just how diverse the mobs are. as you travel from one place to the next the scenery and mobs change drastically. the drops change too incidentally. at every turn there is the chance to meet someone in the game that has misunderstood something, and at this point it is easy to make it a fun game; by helping people understand SA's, armor bonuses, buffs, class skills, or hunting areas, you enrich your own knowledge and may be rewarded.
recently i got burnt out on my Bishop. so i rolled a Sorc. i got burnt out on that too after grinding out up to 61 and dropped back down again to 49 and relevelled. a time later i switched servers and made new friends. its a whole new feel, new money, now everything is again new and i love it. maybe one day i will burn out again and hopefully later rather than sooner.
my point is on both characters and in the community as a whole, you can only burn out when you push your own envellope.
pvp lasting .5 seconds is intense and extremely hard to win at. try pushing yourself through at least 1 gear grade before condemning the rest of the game.
since i havent read your first post, i am assuming you chose a Spellhowler. have you gotten addicted to your damage, or your speed? there are ways of tripping both out past the 4digit mark. spellhowler in demon set and +4 int can really pack a whopping punch. assuming you know all about the end game content having read all about it, surely you can see where i am coming from!
I'm going Necro. Spellhowler doesn't suit my playstyle. I like diverse classes with a little bit of versatility and Sorceror/SH don't suite my playstyle. I've always played a necro in any other game I've played anyways (or whatever its closest match is). I also enjoy summoners (leveled a Magician up in EQ), but they are expensive to level up in L2 so I don't think I'll be going there.
I just spent alot of time waiting for a friend to log in cause it was either run halfway around the world or wait for a port.
I'm quite patient.
As far as grinding my bum off, that is one of the fastest ways to burn out in Lineage 2 I'm feeling, since most of that involves solo play to a huge extent, and I have to resort to its built-in MSN messenger client to fill the social void of the game at these levels. It's hard to XP grind and chat at the same time, especially multiple conversations :)
TBH, though, my friends list is extremely long and I raid multiple times a day with basically the same people. That's very fun, but the other 60% of my time online is alone. It's hard to see mob diversity when you're forced to camp the same mobs over and over and over again due to the amount of time it takes to gain experience.
when you can name every skill on his hotbar, understand why he used what and when, and can identify his gear, you have successfully learned the role of necro in pvp.
not a lot has changed since those videos; the song remains the same for te most part.
back on topic, deleveling WAS part of game design. looking for the exact quote but cant find it in the old prima guide, it was something like "you may see other players attacking and dying to the guards. do not do this until you have some more game experience and know the effects of deleveling." suicide was the last of the dwarven ecconomic advantages. by NC logic: dwarves are the abolute worst class to make money with, consequently, something must be subtracted. thus death penalty.
I've never had to delvl intentionally, happened a few times after just leveling up though...
I don't have a spoiler, only recently started manoring(me baka, should've done it since the beginning)and yet I've managed to equip two 60+ characters, three 40+ characters and my academy twink.
How? Play the market, use the various websites to see what mobs drop what items and materials, craft top C grade weapons for 5-6m and sell for 14m, craft two of them and make sls*sls, sell for 32m. Use the lazy ppl to bring you cash.
About the topic, i would say that any game that need one person to do more then 1 char to be able of experience the game, has something wrong in it's conception. I play lineage 2 becouse i like the graphics and the pvp system but i trully can't say the same about the pve, lvling and crafting system. Many other mmorpg's around have done those things in a better way, or let's say in a funnier way. Yet, many other things are making the gameplay worse, i.e. the insane amount of bots in many server just crashing the whole server economy...
About the topic, i would say that any game that need one person to do more then 1 char to be able of experience the game, has something wrong in it's conception. I play lineage 2 becouse i like the graphics and the pvp system but i trully can't say the same about the pve, lvling and crafting system. Many other mmorpg's around have done those things in a better way, or let's say in a funnier way. Yet, many other things are making the gameplay worse, i.e. the insane amount of bots in many server just crashing the whole server economy...
Well, bots aside (as all popular games have them and they affect the economy) I have to agree.
I seriously question the game design where I have to have a dwarf and have to deal with the market in order to enjoy the game. I just hate this stuff.
Now, considering that this is a pvp game, how is it that hardcore pvp players can even stand the amount of stuff one has to do in order to stay competitive?
I know that there are people who like crafting and dealing with the economy (and more power to them) but I have no problem allowing them to benefit from their efforts as long as I can just play how I want to play and still enjoy the game.
As it stands now, many aspects of this game feel like a job.
Now, considering that this is a pvp game, how is it that hardcore pvp players can even stand the amount of stuff one has to do in order to stay competitive?
I think the first two words of your post answered that question, really.