sinds i started the Fate wisper quest i get this feeling they made it to rediculus for words
like this
get a blood Fabrics you need to punch a mob for like a hour
in TOI with bare fist i mean comeone what weed did the creator used to make something like this up?
5 Raid Boss's to kill to compleet a quest :confused:
do they love to torture people ?
when i was a noob i did realy did not know this and thought it was all kind of over exilerated by people but this is realy not funny. i spend 100's of hours to become 75 did i NOT EARNED my Sub class???
I got my subclass 5 hours after I hit 75. it helps to have a good ally.
LOL it have nothing about sucking, you suck LOL.
Seriously first of you need a lot of quests done before sure can be taken care of before, then you need 4 raid bosses, sure can be taken care of at once IF they are up, but usually they are not.
Then you got baium, who's up like 20 min every 5 day. So you gota be insane lucky to actually hit that spot.
like this
get a blood Fabrics you need to punch a mob for like a hour
in TOI with bare fist i mean comeone what weed did the creator used to make something like this up?
You can equip your weapon and kill the mobs (in melee) in TOI and still get the fabric.
Quote:
like this
get a blood Fabrics you need to punch a mob for like a hour
in TOI with bare fist i mean comeone what weed did the creator used to make something like this up?
You can equip your weapon and kill the mobs (in melee) in TOI and still get the fabric.
you can but its more efficient to use your fists :/
sinds i started the Fate wisper quest i get this feeling they made it to rediculus for words
like this
get a blood Fabrics you need to punch a mob for like a hour
in TOI with bare fist i mean comeone what weed did the creator used to make something like this up?
5 Raid Boss's to kill to compleet a quest :confused:
do they love to torture people ?
when i was a noob i did realy did not know this and thought it was all kind of over exilerated by people but this is realy not funny. i spend 100's of hours to become 75 did i NOT EARNED my Sub class???
I've never found any of the class change quests (or sub quest) enjoyable.
Other than going to see Baium. but even that has its issues. Just keep at it. You have to adopt a sort of "zen like" attitude or you will go nuts.
The more challenging the quests - the more rewarding they are when you complete them.
With that being said, there is a limit, and the 2nd and 3rd class changes surpass that limit, as does the subclass quest. We might as well add in the S grade armor quests as being ridiculously excessive also.
They get to a point where they are no longer fun. Usually when I'm working on most of the quests in L2, it seems more like they are designed to beat the player into submission than they are to be a source of fun.
IMO the quests should be a source of fun rather than just another hill that must be climbed to get to where you are going. The Dev's do not see it that way. Certainly there are a few quests designed to just be fun, or to be done while you're doing your regular grind, as a little extra reward.
Mostly though, the quests are more like a sheer rockface that you come too and have no choice but to climb. Apparently the Dev's believe it isn't a good climb if your fingers and toes aren't bleeding by the time you get to the top.
Quote:
like this
get a blood Fabrics you need to punch a mob for like a hour
in TOI with bare fist i mean comeone what weed did the creator used to make something like this up?
You can equip your weapon and kill the mobs (in melee) in TOI and still get the fabric.
you can but its more efficient to use your fists :/
I've done the bloody fabric thing more times than I can remember. I've done it with weapons, I've done it with Chronos, I've done it with fists. The drop rate is the same regardless of how you kill the mob. I think it's based on a timer, because in every case, nobody gets the quest drop for the first hour, and then everyone gets it within just a couple of minutes of each other. So you might as well equip a weapon and get some xp while waiting for the fabrics.
They get to a point where they are no longer fun./
IMO the quests should be a source of fun rather than just another hill that must be climbed to get to where you are going. The Dev's do not see it that way.
I almost quit during the 2nd class change quest.
When it came to the 3rd class change I essentially resigned myself to just doing it little by little, with the idea that if I never finished it then so be it.
Sub was an accident. I sort of was in the right place at the right time.
I am so burned out on the few L2 quests I've done that I catagorically don't take quests and don't read the ones' that I have taken other than to know what needs to be done.
They are poorly written, in some cases the language used is to much set in the "common" vernacular and not befitting the world or character that is issuing the text.
It's just brutal. My only thought is that there really is a reason for this and it might be cultural. Otherwise, the quest writers need to be fired.
Quote:
like this
get a blood Fabrics you need to punch a mob for like a hour
in TOI with bare fist i mean comeone what weed did the creator used to make something like this up?
You can equip your weapon and kill the mobs (in melee) in TOI and still get the fabric.
you can but its more efficient to use your fists :/
efficient? I guess if you have no purpose hunting there. In a medium sized party I can exp and earn the needed fabric in about an hour. So I come out + exp and 10 bloody fabrics. You get to go exp afterwards, and we end up at the same point at best.
I've done the fabric a couple of times, as a healer I don't normally hit the mobs at all, but you can still get the fabric just exping normally on those mobs in a party. However if you get someone to para the mob, preferably, and just wack it with fists or a NG dagger with haste/zerk, you seem to get it a million times faster than just exping.
I've done the fabric a couple of times, as a healer I don't normally hit the mobs at all, but you can still get the fabric just exping normally on those mobs in a party. However if you get someone to para the mob, preferably, and just wack it with fists or a NG dagger with haste/zerk, you seem to get it a million times faster than just exping.
I've done the fabric a couple of times, as a healer I don't normally hit the mobs at all, but you can still get the fabric just exping normally on those mobs in a party. However if you get someone to para the mob, preferably, and just wack it with fists or a NG dagger with haste/zerk, you seem to get it a million times faster than just exping.
I have to say, I tried the fist thing and it didn't work for me. I got the fabric "xping" normally.
Me too. I did it with two others that also need the fabrics. We just resigned ourselves to grouping for a few hours in ToI. We go decent XP and adena and got the fabrics.
What is definitely true is this: the very first blooded fabric takes F O R E V E R. The rest of the fabrics come very fast. I had the quest on me and my SE. It took hours to get the first fabric (my SE got the fabric first). In the time it took me to get my first fabric my SE got about 5 more. Go figure. Then in the time it took the other two party members I was with to get their first fabrics I got 7 more and my SE finished and got all 10.
Getting the 1st bloody fabric is different than most quest items, you can get it without killing the angel. I was frenzy+rage killing those angels for hours and no fabric, then a clannie told me to do it without SS because you make the fight longer, which was the key. I got a system message notifing that I got the bloody fabric while the angel was still alive. Got it on the 2nd angel I fought without SS.
The sub-class quest is near impossible (5 raid bosses?!!) for someone like me who do not have tons of time to play and not in one of the bigger clans on the server. Thank god for multiple characters, I think I'll just reroll.
Doing Fates Whisper right now, and all I gotta say is it is terrible. Full time college student, part time job, not to mention about 5-6 hours of homework every night doesn't give me the opportunity to camp bosses forever. I can camp bosses while I do homework, but it is super distracting.
If you don't have a big alliance to do the bosses it is even worse. I camped a boss for over 24 hours, it was spawned the whole time, and when a group finally came to take it, they just pked me. Call me carebear, but I think these raid boss rooms should be peace zones, just so that everyone at least has a chance. I usually love pvp, but when running on an hour or two of sleep and being there alone against a raid group, in my opinion isn't pvp. At that point it almost doesn't become a game anymore. Too many Jerks in the game that like to flex their e-muscles. Also it is my choice to be in a small clan. I find the people in there are more my friends and are definitely more fun to play with than a large 'zerg' so to speak, so I should not be penalized for my social preferences.
This quest is dumb. There is a difference between difficult and insane. Having a challenge is fun, and I like challenges, but if I have to put a game over my real life in order to advance because I need to watch a room for hours upon end and hope someone comes there not to kill me, thats just bad. Climbing to ToI is enough of a challenge, lol. Have you ever seen a Necro, SE, and SpS make it all the way to ToI 11, I have...it is scary, but probably the funnest part of this **** quest!
Lets just say this quest is so bad that my alt became a bounty hunter because I actually decided that finding toma, and running that horrid quest was cake!
Lets just say this quest is so bad that my alt became a bounty hunter because I actually decided that finding toma, and running that horrid quest was cake!
O.o YIKES! Perhaps I'll just forego ever thinking about reaching that lvl.
I actually loved the Fate's Whisper quest and the 3rd class change quest was comparatively easy. I like to do Raid Bosses and all that. I guess things are a little different on Lionna, because it is possible to get a last minute invite from the bigger clans when they are on one of their TOI-boss rolls, which is what happened to me and several of the other people I know.
And as for Baium, I finished Longhorn, hurried back to Oren and talked to the blacksmith, and got summoned up to the 13th floor to go in for Baium... which was a hoot. I also got the first bloodied fabric after about 2-3 hours of hunting the floor, which was a normal xp night for us, so that was no biggie.
I can tell you that the most frustrating quest on L2 is the TOI blueprint quest, because it rarely delivers and the floor sets are very difficult to compile, and to just get one single fabric as a reward.... something you get as a regular drop by hunting the mobs... makes the quest the most frustrating one I have done. At least at the end of those ridiculous 2nd class change quests, you actually get what you quested for.
I did fate's whisper when there was no player summoning, but the dawn ports still existed. At least that was a somewhat bonus, but that was also when farmers mad-camped Baium too. If you didn't port within 10 seconds of him spawning after waiting for hours and hours, you were sol.
hmm most people think the reward is to become noble but personly i dont give rat tall about it
i wanna sub for RPG elements so i can be something other then a elf SPS like a elf Gladiator
Yesterday i was doing my job change quest for my newbie HE.
Had to kill manachen gargoils >_< I almost cryed, cause the mobs have greater bow resistance.. which means 70dmg with bow+soulshots. They crazystun.... *sobs*
Took me 2 deaths, 50+ hp pots, tons of shots and hours of fustration to finally get the ***ing quest item, which refused to drop.
I had a friend helping me (sorc), but he had to go also after 40 mins of hunting and no q.item....
I dotn mind that i have to do quests, i dont mind, that it takes loooong time.. i enjoy my grind, but i do HATE when i have to kill mobs, that are absolutely resistant to the profession i chose.
So yeah... unless you have a dagger or any other weapon and at least a friend, who can help... good luck all the future HEs out there, who like to start out with the bow already.
Quote:
like this
get a blood Fabrics you need to punch a mob for like a hour
in TOI with bare fist i mean comeone what weed did the creator used to make something like this up?
You can equip your weapon and kill the mobs (in melee) in TOI and still get the fabric.
you can but its more efficient to use your fists :/
LOL...
I ran from 0 - 7... soloed dogs for about 40 minutes and i had bloody fab
that is about the easiest part of the quest
waiting on raids and Baium to spawn was time consumin but still no real trouble.. someone else kills them talk to the box not real hard... watch someone die then poke baium not to hard
you should have had all the regents by now... all you haave to do is get the quest and go about your normal hunting and you should have them by 75
I hit 75 and finished subing in 1 week w/ no clan and most of that time was spent waiting for raid/biaum spawn
doing 1-40 w/ class quest on a toon takes 1/2 as much time... but then again you can reset your sub to somthing new everyday if you want
i think its worth it
Quest are allmost per default the offspring of a twisted mind.
If this is seen as offence then so be it.
I never ever could understand the mind that created these quests in the first place. Sure in good ally/clan things may not be that bad and sure I have all boss's down exept Baium in my Fate-quest but I got bloody lucky.
I for one would love to have that developer of quests in game so I could beat the liveing .... out of him/she in the arena (frustrated much???)
Btw oEliinao in C6 you can get these quests better done as then the possibility of shadow-weapons has arrived (too late for you now but if you ever start a new character I suggest using those weapons from L20 - L40 for sure).
Well that's the luck of the draw isn't it? It took me 4+ hours to get the bloody fabric. I had to wait for Cabrio 3 times beacuse the first 2 was done by an enemy clan that pk'd anyone, tagged or not, that wanted the box. I waited for Baium at least 4 times because farmers had it on such fierce lock down. I got pk'd by random enemy clans trying to get hallate, took 2 times to get that.
Sometimes it's harder than it needs to be because of your server politics.
Yeah, but the way I see it is that, these higher level things, pvp is built into it, or is intended to have it built into it. You know, "fight for the right" kind of thinking.
PvP or ganking
no people at 75+ earned their sub if you ask me you know how much hours i played to become 75 it's more then a 1 and a half year ago
i can understand people getting iritated when they getting killed or PK when they only wanna get some blood
Abisha, no offense intended, but you talk as if PvP were only a nebulous choice in this game. At the higher levels, the skills and the power and design are there for PvP.... Look at interlude... practically every new skill is there to enhance pvp. I'm not saying that PvP is the only thing to this game at the higher levels, but it is at least a part of it.
hmm their are a lot of people playing this game for the PVE
their is even a RPG clan on the Dev server their clan called Undomiel (evening star) or something and i rater like the PVE also more then the PVP content of the game
Well, sure. The PvE is a great part of the game. But that is like saying you want to work to get to the top of your career and don't think you have to engage in the pvp of the corporate world, called politics and power .... it's part of the package. You can somewhat avoid it at the lower levels, but once you hit the higher levels, it is there and integrally a part of it. I'm just sayin', is all.
I did the Fate's whisper Quest 3 times already, I don't think its that difficult :confused: :confused:
Compared to the time it takes to get to that lvl its just like a drop.
I've done it 3 times too, always within an hour of when I hit 75... of course, like people are saying the pvp is built into it. if you control the server (like my ally does) this quest is not a problem. and I have pk'd MANY people going for the boxes, and we've destroyed many other people's cabrio/toi raids... like 50 times at least.
it is a good feeling to make people have to wait another day for subclass.
hmm i think kayosoni_ forgets that new people or existing people playing this game brings in the contents of the game ;) when they get hit on their heads to much content might be lost meaning no input
Kayosoni is prolly one of those shrinking violets/wallflowers in real life and takes out all the stored-up animosity inside him to the streets of L2. Better in virtual life than real life :)
it is a good feeling to make people have to wait another day for subclass.
Do you realize sometimes people have a real life and can't wait everyday for a raid boss to spawn. I was pked once for the ToI bosses so far and it sent me back about a week, not a day. This is a game and is suppose to be fun, not uber time consuming where in order to advance you have to leave your real life on the side for a virtual one. That is idiotic to say the least.
Like I said before, I like pvp, but 1 player against roughly 14+ fully buffed A to S graders isn't pvp. That is multiple players simply murdering one other player. I would attack back if it was one, heck even two, maybe three depending on the clan, but not against 14+ or whatever.
Like I said, the quest is hard enough. These boss zones, at least in ToI should be peace zones so that the guy that spends days or even weeks camping a boss isn't simply killed because some kid has to flex his e-muscle to act like he is a man.
Do people think they are strong when they roll up there with tons of players and just kill some guy or two that is sitting there? Do they honestly find that funny? Power does corrupt I guess. But imho that isn't power...thats a coward.
You guys pvp much? I personally agree with kayosoni, we use to get a huge kick out of making someone wait for the next raid spawn by killing them last minute.
You know why?
Because they would do the same thing to us too. I had to wait through 2 Cabrio spawns because I would have gotten killed if I logged in for the box. Yes it is a game, if you want to cry about that, go outside and take a walk or something. We don't take it that seriously!!! geez. It's oh boo you got me that time, nuts.
The quests are ******ed.On YOUR server where RB seem to ALWAYS be up its not the case on the others.RB are getting farmed and even if you dont get pked waiting 20+ hours for a RB is just bad design.
Since there are alot of allies on the server (tons of em actually) most of the time you dont know when they got killed either.
Well, if it was my clan and I had tons of people behind me to do the raid, I would help the guy that is sitting there if he never did anything against us personally. Even if I knew he was a war tag but was currently untagged, and wasn't the loud mouthed smack talker that would say something if we lost a pvp, I would let him/her get the box. I am in to helping people, especially some guy that seems nice, never had a problem with him/her before. This is my personal choice though, and I feel this is just good 'character' to go by because I like it more when I help someone instead of making them ******, sad, whatever people get. Some people aren't like this, and that is fine with me because honestly it is what makes L2 interesting.
When I pvp I like going against the odds (to a degree) or at least having close to equal sides. I wouldn't find it fun to actually stand there with 20 some clan members behind me and kill some random dude, this may just be me though...I just don't get a kick out of it and I don't consider it pvp either. This doesn't say that I won't go out with 3-4 people to hunt war tags, and 'zerg' some guy soloing somewhere. But to me thats different, if you are war tagged thats part of the game and something ppl have to accept.
Did I "cry" about it though when I was killed? No, I thought the guy and his clan that killed me was a jerk. I was like oh well, thats 12 or so more hours that I don't have to worry about the spawn and I went on with my life and a 'wasted' 24 hours trying to camp the spawn. I guess I don't really like people that enjoy wasting my time... But it really isn't something that I am going to give them the privledge to waste my time more by not getting over it.
The quest is hard enough as it is, of course unless you have a decent size clan that can run the bosses. I just don't understand, I guess, people enjoying the pain of others that they helped create. Guess it just isn't in me, even in a game...
You can pvp people without being sadistic you know, it's not like wow **** I'm evil because I killed that guy and he missed cabrio/longhorn/whatever. It's just pvp!
I can see it if your clan/alliance is at war. Enjoying just randomly frustrating somebody you don't know? Nah. And that is exactly what the one player was talkiing about, was enjoying frustrating somebody.
Then again, on my server at least, I would not need to assume that the player would eventually be trying to kill me.
You can pvp people without being sadistic you know, it's not like wow **** I'm evil because I killed that guy and he missed cabrio/longhorn/whatever. It's just pvp!
You mean PK people without being sadistic?
Hey I know, thats fine! Like I said it is what makes the game interesting. I know you aren't some bastard or anything, and that you like helping the community doing statics guides, etc. etc. HELL I was using your guide for this quest. ;) I have talked to you in game and you seem like a pretty cool person imo. Not saying someone is evil for pking someone. I just don't understand killing a random person and possibly destroying their whole day because they were happy that they might actually get this quest started, finished, going, whatever. Or make someone loose RL sleep because people do in order to wait for someone to take the boss. I stayed up 24 hours straight when I was pked, but after that was like...wow...not going to stay up for that. So now I just wait until some helpful ppl come around, or go ninja the box before they can kill me.
This is just a game. But everyone that plays L2 knows that this game is also directly connected to your RL in a sense. If you want to get the bosses you have to focus on the game, because you can't just log in for the normal casual 2 hours and expect to do the raidbosses.
I guess when it comes to things such as this quest it becomes more than "just pvp." It is loss of sleep, waiting, waiting, and then basically stealing that away from someone.
Killing a wartag, or someone that was a bastard to you earlier in the game, a sort of revenge, hey I understand that. I mean I was actually killed because I ****** off a clan/zerg whatever because the clan I was in with 5 people defending our castle kept a clan with hundreds of people from claiming the castle because we kept killing the scriber for over an hour. So I guess I could have deserved that...I actually find that funny...though...more than anything I guess. :p
It is just the, "hey look at this noob waiting for the boss, pk him" that I find odd. Maybe it is the group mentality, when you know friends get together in bunches they sometimes are mean to the guy sitting by himself? I never went for that...but some people find it fun...and it creates interesting relationships/politics.
Split the ally in two and start warring each other-problem solved.That way all the [censored] can get all the kicks they need.And the "neutral" clans can get a bit of a breather in the beggining and later on join 1 side or the other.
We work with another ally (that stemmed from The Equalizers clan we started together) and we'll help anyone get those raid mobs. But that is the type of PEOPLE we are. Game or not, wartag or not, there are people behind the toons (well, the ones we are trying to help, at least). Alas, as you can clearly see, not everyone shares that mindset. Of course, that is what makes the world go 'round.
we do it because we want the server to get ****** off and give us decent opposition.
but that will probably never happen.
Riiiiiiight. You mean you are frightened of competition so you take extra measures to try to hamper the progress of other players who are working toward the end-game skills that actually would be a challenge to you. I've seen that lame excuse in action on more than one server. When you can no longer suppress the community and you finally have to deal with the challenge, the next excuse will be that you've all found the game to be boring and you'll quit in droves.
we do it because we want the server to get ****** off and give us decent opposition.
but that will probably never happen.
Riiiiiiight. You mean you are frightened of competition so you take extra measures to try to hamper the progress of other players who are working toward the end-game skills that actually would be a challenge to you. I've seen that lame excuse in action on more than one server. When you can no longer suppress the community and you finally have to deal with the challenge, the next excuse will be that you've all found the game to be boring and you'll quit in droves.
What is the point of PKing a person that only wants the chest?
They aren't interfering with your RB hunt and they aren't taking the chest away from you. PKing them is what an 5 year old child would had done...
Well in my situation I was hanging out waiting for Hallate in his closed little room, wartags came in and killed me. I rezzed myself with an alt, logged out, and when farmers came to get the boss my clan came in and killed those war tags as I came back in and got the box. Call me crazy but that was fun. But me personally, I will try to kill a war tag no matter what, unless there is some sort of prior arrangement or whatever. Just some random, obviously detagged person? No
No harm in killing wartags imo. That's part of the consequence of the decisons one makes in game. However, there are clans who need to take certain methods to gain advantages, wartag everyone else and play king of the mountain by preventing competition as long as possible.
I don't see you as that type Elliebellie, you tend to give back to the community. That can't be said for everyone.
we do it because we want the server to get ****** off and give us decent opposition.
but that will probably never happen.
Riiiiiiight. You mean you are frightened of competition so you take extra measures to try to hamper the progress of other players who are working toward the end-game skills that actually would be a challenge to you. I've seen that lame excuse in action on more than one server. When you can no longer suppress the community and you finally have to deal with the challenge, the next excuse will be that you've all found the game to be boring and you'll quit in droves.
Well the point is to win and dominate. Those with most time to spare can do this. The ally who has the most people with lots of spare time will usually dominate.
Well the point is to win and dominate. Those with most time to spare can do this. The ally who has the most people with lots of spare time will usually dominate.
Very very true. I would never begrudge people (who play the game LEGIT) that have good leadership, good organizational skills, employ solid tactics and play the game to win. I admire that even if it exhibited by an enemy.
That's not the issue.
But a little intellectual honesty goes a long way and blowing smoke does not.
Add to that, a dash of sportsmanship into the philosophy and things get a bit interesting.
Well the point is to win and dominate. Those with most time to spare can do this. The ally who has the most people with lots of spare time will usually dominate.
Very very true. I would never begrudge people (who play the game LEGIT) that have good leadership, good organizational skills, employ solid tactics and play the game to win. I admire that even if it exhibited by an enemy.
That's not the issue.
But a little intellectual honesty goes a long way and blowing smoke does not.
Add to that, a dash of sportsmanship into the philosophy and things get a bit interesting.
Dammit man, second time today we've agreed on something... lol
We work with another ally (that stemmed from The Equalizers clan we started together) and we'll help anyone get those raid mobs. But that is the type of PEOPLE we are. Game or not, wartag or not, there are people behind the toons (well, the ones we are trying to help, at least). Alas, as you can clearly see, not everyone shares that mindset. Of course, that is what makes the world go 'round.
we do it because we want the server to get ****** off and give us decent opposition.
but that will probably never happen.
Riiiiiiight. You mean you are frightened of competition so you take extra measures to try to hamper the progress of other players who are working toward the end-game skills that actually would be a challenge to you. I've seen that lame excuse in action on more than one server. When you can no longer suppress the community and you finally have to deal with the challenge, the next excuse will be that you've all found the game to be boring and you'll quit in droves.
Whatever.
rofl ok there buddy, we've controlled this server for how long now lol, if people wont grow the balls to stand up and actually pvp us n junk then gotta provoke it :P so in that case, if anyone but us is there pkpkpk :P and always fun to run in and destroy a raid force with 1 party then take the boss from em b4 they get back ^^
Yeah, there are bullies everywhere... every server has them. Lots of unsavory characters running around. At the high end of the game, you have to be "smart" and figure out and work towards facing and defeating them.
When you get to the higher levels that you can do this Raid Boss quest, what is injected into the game is real politics. It pretty much makes you be in a good clan/ally, one with good leadership that can organize and politically insure this kind of quest is completed. It IS the high end content of the game. It requires working with other allies, other clans, etc. to accomplish something. It takes the game one step up.
If you chose to not take that step, then you pretty much need to take a look at the game and see it for what it is. If you choose to ignore what the high-end content is, you will often be disappointed, the kind of disappointment that has been mentioned in this thread.
What EllieBellie's clan did, that is good leadership. It makes the game a lot more fun and I'm sure Ellie and the others really felt accomplished when it was done.
LOL, I know all about PR and your tactics. The last thing you want is competition, which is why you go to great lengths to prevent it... alll the while trying to portray your tactics as some gesture of goading sport.
It's the equivalent of de-fanging snakes and shooting them in a pit and claiming that by removing the fangs you are creating a more hostile, and thus more dangerous prey.
Nobody is as stupid as you require them to be to believe that drivel.
Well in my situation I was hanging out waiting for Hallate in his closed little room, wartags came in and killed me. I rezzed myself with an alt, logged out, and when farmers came to get the boss my clan came in and killed those war tags as I came back in and got the box. Call me crazy but that was fun. But me personally, I will try to kill a war tag no matter what, unless there is some sort of prior arrangement or whatever. Just some random, obviously detagged person? No
Hey I am going to agree 100%, and that does sound like tons of fun. That instance is PvP, plus it is war tags.
What I am explicitly talking about is some random guy sitting there waiting for the boss. The other clan doesn't know him, maybe saw him around but doesn't think they are an enemy, but just decides to kill him because they can. There is no consequence and no risk in killing him because he is in a no name clan or no clan and you have a zerg behind you to back you up. This is pointless, and the only reason I can see this is because someone is being a jerk, not because of politics, or even fun really, except that some people get off on being jerks, and imo that is sadistic.
War tags, personal grudges, and whatnot I think are fine. But to kill a player for the sole reason just to make them feel bad, or mess up their quest to cause them grief is blatant bullying and qualities of a bastard which I think would shame oneself.
And to whomever mentioned just killing people to provoke competition. Yeah, 12 people killing some random dude is going to provoke competition. Stopping this guy from progressing in the game because obviously his clan isn't even strong enough to take out raid bosses is going to provoke competition. This is suppressing completion because the opposing force can't gather enough momentum. Want competition? Lay off the heat for a month or two and most likely you will see some competition if that is really what you want. My opinion is you want domination...which is fine...but don't say one thing when you really want another.
we do it because we want the server to get ****** off and give us decent opposition.
but that will probably never happen.
Riiiiiiight. You mean you are frightened of competition so you take extra measures to try to hamper the progress of other players who are working toward the end-game skills that actually would be a challenge to you. I've seen that lame excuse in action on more than one server. When you can no longer suppress the community and you finally have to deal with the challenge, the next excuse will be that you've all found the game to be boring and you'll quit in droves.
Whatever.
QFT.
+1
It is amazing how seriously people take a game.
Comming from the people that cant stand to die in a GAME. Let them kill whoever they want to and have fun. Why? Because they can.
lol why would we want domination when we obviously already have it, if the other clans/allys in the server actually worked together for once and opposed us maybe they would do better than they have in the past. When they try and end up all wanting to lead and control *** and end up fighting each other instead of us and get slaughtered once again. At war with practically the rest of the server and still have only a small amount of ppl that actually fight. If ppl dont like it then they need to grow some balls and actually work together and fight us instead of cryin.
Comming from the people that cant stand to die in a GAME. Let them kill whoever they want to and have fun. Why? Because they can.
Deep theory. You should take that on tour.
Its not a theory, its a fact. All I see is the high top-clan people having fun when they do it and the ones that dies crying. Tell me who takes the game more serious..
hmm died by Baium blow (no not by wake up) before getting blood it realy pushing my Buttions with this he hitted me for 3200 damage before i can hitted him gg
Well, that's because you have to have someone else wake him... and then wait for him to come off of the pedastal. That is when you go to stab him. And then, unless there is a group there doing him, bsoe as quick as you can :)
What I am explicitly talking about is some random guy sitting there waiting for the boss. The other clan doesn't know him, maybe saw him around but doesn't think they are an enemy, but just decides to kill him because they can. There is no consequence and no risk in killing him because he is in a no name clan or no clan and you have a zerg behind you to back you up. This is pointless, and the only reason I can see this is because someone is being a jerk, not because of politics, or even fun really, except that some people get off on being jerks, and imo that is sadistic.
I agree 100% on this.
If the guy is wartaged then sure kill him, but if it is someone that you have never seen or someone from a neutral clan that has never gone against anyone then I think it is a childish act to PK him/her with 50+ (normal RB group to take out all the RB's for the sub quest) vs 1. If you absolutely don't wan't him to take the box then tell him to soe or get PKed.
Is the sin eater quest that fun to do that you can't get enough PKs? (this question goes to those that DON'T use a 3rd party program to do the quest for them or have used a 3rd party program to get to lvl 70+++....you have no idea how many chars from major clans I have seen run around in 24/7 trains inside catas to lvl they're main or sub class just to be the "best" on the server...although they don't have a clue on how to play they're class...)
No harm in killing wartags imo. That's part of the consequence of the decisons one makes in game. However, there are clans who need to take certain methods to gain advantages, wartag everyone else and play king of the mountain by preventing competition as long as possible.
I don't see you as that type Elliebellie, you tend to give back to the community. That can't be said for everyone.
It's not consequence, IT'S FUN. If you need to get quests done or pve more, why are you at war at this time? The cost of a surrender isn't that severe. Say GG, surrender, go back to grinding. You're at war with people and expect them to help you? No way. The second it drops, I'll be glad to help (assuming this isn't a repeat issue). And even if it is a repeat event, I'll simply tell you to go away and that you can't have it from our kill...if you try to stay, well it's your own fault.
But cripes it's a war and you expect people to help you quest from the other side? You are in direct head-to-head competition.
I personally think this quest should be removed because even if you dont have wartags you have to have great luck or no life to get the bosses.
Ive been 75 for a long time only boss i have manage to snag is cabrio. I mean months.... and im kinding losing my will to continue playing the game since I cannot subclass because i actually dont have days to sit waiting for bosses to spawn while im on.
NCSoft put 2 dead ends into the game and i think its time to remove them. Subclass and having to be in the group that gets last hit on the noble boss... 2 things that can kill people's will to play this game.
I dont fell like grinding 75+ because many of friends have quit the game and i cannot make the groups required to xp effiently at those levels there is no real solo area for 75+ (another what the hell was ncsoft thinking thing)
I think 3 years into the game and i cant sub and i know im not the only one, i had a friend on server have to give a clan his Rune clan hall to get his subclass after months of waiting, 2 billion ++ adena for a sub its a shame :(
I personally think this quest should be removed because even if you dont have wartags you have to have great luck or no life to get the bosses.
Ive been 75 for a long time only boss i have manage to snag is cabrio. I mean months.... and im kinding losing my will to continue playing the game since I cannot subclass because i actually dont have days to sit waiting for bosses to spawn while im on.
NCSoft put 2 dead ends into the game and i think its time to remove them. Subclass and having to be in the group that gets last hit on the noble boss... 2 things that can kill people's will to play this game.
I dont fell like grinding 75+ because many of friends have quit the game and i cannot make the groups required to xp effiently at those levels there is no real solo area for 75+ (another what the hell was ncsoft thinking thing)
I think 3 years into the game and i cant sub and i know im not the only one, i had a friend on server have to give a clan his Rune clan hall to get his subclass after months of waiting, 2 billion ++ adena for a sub its a shame :(
That's just ******ed if that's true. Camping a boss is the only way to get them, just like farming a mob for a recipe. Stop exping and log your toon in the spot only. You can go about your business and just check back now and then to see if anyone comes. If you have no war tags, odds are pretty good you'll be fine...as long as you aren't a mortal enemy of the clan killing the boss. You could even try pming some ppl in the raid group and asking them if you can go grab the chest after the raid. Odds are good they'll let you.
well sorry but i dont have all day every day just to keep logging in.
I work 10 - 11 hours a day some nights i got 4 hours of class then i got either class work or work i brought home to do maybe i can squeeze in 2 or 3 hours to log into game.
And what do you suggest if the raid bosses arent up the 2 -3 hours im on? Since most are killed during the day on my server since its mostly a greek server and the greeks night time is when im still at work, so all the bosses i need are dead.
And baium is up once every 5 days.... Want to play russian roullette with that one? I knew someone who took 7 months to get baium.
Please explain to me how any part of that is fun or having a point? Does it make me a better player that i got lucky and hit the lotto of landing on the day and time baium is up just to continue playing a game?
I'm not suggesting you camp the boss all day. Just log in for your few hours that your home and leave your toon there. If that doesn't work, leave an alt there and check in when you log in. If the mob is up, organize a raid group and kill it. What about Saturday, Sunday? Have you pmed any of the Greek clans that kill bosses and tried to simply ask nicely for help?
This is a team based game with clans. Certain personal achievements require team efforts. Should we complain we can't get boss jewels if we can't kill bosses too?
Part of the game is politics. If you don't play them, well, you lose out on, say... the Sub Quest bosses. You made your choices about the politics, and getting those bosses requires that... so why you complain you can't get them? I don't get it.
Again for those that missed it->rework or remove that quest.Its just TOO MUCH TIME.And im not talking about wars/allies and whats not.Nobody should be made waiting 20 hours+ for a RB to spawn at all.This is ******ed!
you really dont understand how the greeks work on devianne.... And im not going to get into it because it would probably be considered a flame.
And like lisail said what is the point in a quest that you have to sit for days weeks or months just for a stupid boss to even spawn and be lucky enough to get it when it spawns..... There is very small NA community left on Devianne if this was 6 months ago I would already been subed i played politics i had lots of friends but the game died over the winter for most of the NA market and a lot of my friends are in other games now so what politics can I play?
Again for those that missed it->rework or remove that quest.Its just TOO MUCH TIME.And im not talking about wars/allies and whats not.Nobody should be made waiting 20 hours+ for a RB to spawn at all.This is ******ed!
perhaps a game like.. say.. guild wars would work better for you. there is no pvp there (and thus no fun.)
Hi Sith,
I think that perhaps I didn't word myself clearly, or the point was missed. I'm not suggesting that a wartag help (though we have in the past, it's not something that is or should be a common thing).
If you get killed by wartags, that is a consequence you voluntarily take part in by being in a clan with an active war. it is part of the fun and competition of the game and no problems there.
I'm not expecting wartags to not act upon that war.
Now, there are some server dominatiing clans that war just about everyone and do all they can to prevent anyone from being able to compete. And despite the efforts of propaganda, we know the real reason why.
you can easilly get upwards of 15m xp an hour with zariche in the dark room in pagans. I mean you can see your xp bar move more than .01% per mob at 78 lol.
I was getting a level every 2 hours on my sws starting at 66 there last night.
Not to defend Vina or anything, but serously lay off.
Even though i NEVER ever xp, EVER, when i do xp, i get so much more xp then you would ever image at higher levels, if you go the right place. YOu just need the secret spot ;).
Not to depend Vina or anything, but serously lay off.
Even though i NEVER ever xp, EVER, when i do xp, i get so much more xp then you would ever image at higher levels, if you go the right place. YOu just need the secret spot ;).
my cardinal luffs to leech in it cov archer party.
This is what happens in a society where people think the point of the game is inflicting the most pain possible on everyone but yourself. In korea they understand pvp is just pvp to have fun not to the point to make people quit the game.
But hey all u uber pvpers complain when there is no on to pvp against..... your the reason y.
If the guy is wartaged then sure kill him, but if it is someone that you have never seen or someone from a neutral clan that has never gone against anyone then I think it is a childish act to PK him/her with 50+ (normal RB group to take out all the RB's for the sub quest) vs 1. If you absolutely don't wan't him to take the box then tell him to soe or get PKed.
I disagree with you. Some of us view people that participate in so-called "Neutral" clans as taking a political stance that is contrary to ours. They ARE the enemy, even if they don't have war tags.
Neutral clans suck up resources that politically active clans require. People on their clan roster are people that we can't have on ours. Raid boss drops they get don't go into our clanwarehouse. Reputation points they get, we forgoe. Castles they own, we don't get taxes from. When they get items to sell (like s-grade recipes and items), we must lower our own selling prices to compete with them. Therefore, its in our interest to discourage players from participating in those clans and to encourage them in supporting our own.
Why should players who refuse to take part in the politics of the game be able to get everything easily without fighting for it? If they want something, they need to fight for it, pay for it, or support us against our enemies in some fashion to earn access to it. The only thing sparing them most of the time is the karma system.
We can't force anyone to quit. Players make that choice for themselves. Some people are just quitters! Others are strong willed and will continue pushing towards their goals until they reach them. Nobody likes a quitter anyway.
You do realize by intimdating, frustrating, and antagonizing those people in neutral clans doesnt help you right? They will not come to your side because by that point they already hate you.
It is a game not world politics. Some people play the game for fun and do not wish to take part in the actvities you do. You only alienate them from your clan/ally and the game. You need to take a look at the BS your writing.
A neutral clan doesnt hurt you because it doesnt play with you. If you are in a large clan/ally your not hurting in the adena pocket. You most likely have a castle or two and do RB's on a regular basis. Saying they hurt you economically is complete crap. You should go out and pk all the yachters then because they hurt you more economically than any neutral clan.
I guess what it comes down to is a bunch of egotistical pricks that are either 12 or still act like it thinking that if they can pawn someone in game their life is a little better. Hate to break it to you but all you accomplish is making your server a little lighter. Your harrassement in game is not something most people feel they need to deal with. Most of us in the real world have enough stress from work, managing a budget, supporting families, and keeping a social life. Having someone be an *** in game is easy for me to deal with....I just log off.
This is a game people. If you feel the need to prove you are the best at this game then soon you will be the only one left. You say you do it for competition and to spark it in others? Well face the facts it doesnt do it in a virtual game. It only makes people log off and sometimes never log back on. You can call them quitters but the real loser is you.
Yesterday i was doing my job change quest for my newbie HE.
Had to kill manachen gargoils >_< I almost cryed, cause the mobs have greater bow resistance.. which means 70dmg with bow+soulshots. They crazystun.... *sobs*
Took me 2 deaths, 50+ hp pots, tons of shots and hours of fustration to finally get the ***ing quest item, which refused to drop.
I had a friend helping me (sorc), but he had to go also after 40 mins of hunting and no q.item....
I dotn mind that i have to do quests, i dont mind, that it takes loooong time.. i enjoy my grind, but i do HATE when i have to kill mobs, that are absolutely resistant to the profession i chose.
So yeah... unless you have a dagger or any other weapon and at least a friend, who can help... good luck all the future HEs out there, who like to start out with the bow already.
My rogue uses top D duals or a mithral dagger. I'll get a bow when he becomes an HE.
All you need are dual sords for all D grade melee classes.
You do realize by intimdating, frustrating, and antagonizing those people in neutral clans doesnt help you right? They will not come to your side because by that point they already hate you.
It is a game not world politics. Some people play the game for fun and do not wish to take part in the actvities you do. You only alienate them from your clan/ally and the game. You need to take a look at the BS your writing.
A neutral clan doesnt hurt you because it doesnt play with you. If you are in a large clan/ally your not hurting in the adena pocket. You most likely have a castle or two and do RB's on a regular basis. Saying they hurt you economically is complete crap. You should go out and pk all the yachters then because they hurt you more economically than any neutral clan.
I guess what it comes down to is a bunch of egotistical pricks that are either 12 or still act like it thinking that if they can pawn someone in game their life is a little better. Hate to break it to you but all you accomplish is making your server a little lighter. Your harrassement in game is not something most people feel they need to deal with. Most of us in the real world have enough stress from work, managing a budget, supporting families, and keeping a social life. Having someone be an *** in game is easy for me to deal with....I just log off.
This is a game people. If you feel the need to prove you are the best at this game then soon you will be the only one left. You say you do it for competition and to spark it in others? Well face the facts it doesnt do it in a virtual game. It only makes people log off and sometimes never log back on. You can call them quitters but the real loser is you.
I disagree with you. Some of us view people that participate in so-called "Neutral" clans as taking a political stance that is contrary to ours. They ARE the enemy, even if they don't have war tags.
Neutral clans suck up resources that politically active clans require. People on their clan roster are people that we can't have on ours. Raid boss drops they get don't go into our clanwarehouse. Reputation points they get, we forgoe. Castles they own, we don't get taxes from. When they get items to sell (like s-grade recipes and items), we must lower our own selling prices to compete with them. Therefore, its in our interest to discourage players from participating in those clans and to encourage them in supporting our own.
Why should players who refuse to take part in the politics of the game be able to get everything easily without fighting for it? If they want something, they need to fight for it, pay for it, or support us against our enemies in some fashion to earn access to it. The only thing sparing them most of the time is the karma system.
We can't force anyone to quit. Players make that choice for themselves. Some people are just quitters! Others are strong willed and will continue pushing towards their goals until they reach them. Nobody likes a quitter anyway.
As a founder of an Independent Clan (often lumped in with the neutral moniker) it may surprise you to note that I find this philosophy to be quite valid.
It is a very legitimate and often accurate political philosophy to view Neutrals in such a way. For Gor****reedstein, his political philosophy is "You are either with us, or you are against us" and via his perspective it is (or at least may be) a truthful statement.
There are neutral clans that do, in fact, provide to the server. Many neutral clans perform raids while the pvp clans are doing whatever they do plus pvping. Often times, members of these pvp clans get to have their subclass quests done with help of, or by invitation by neutrals. Many neutral clans are "noob friendly" and help to foster and aid what eventually become the toons in the big pvp clans.
Neutral clans also add to the taxes collected by clans that own castles, to the market of materials and weapons, crafters, etc.
There is a max number of people in a clan, though admittedly, no limit to the number of sub/supplimantal clans one can associate with/control. So neutral clans do provide a home for players that are, granted, not available to your clan... but they are also, by being in a neutral clan, not actively harming your interests.
There is a lot that can be said both in support of, and in contrast to Gordon's philosophy.
That doesn't take away from the fact that his philosophy still boils down to fear. Fear that the neutrals are weakening his power-pool, fear that by not being with him, that his grip on dominance is that much less firm, and it is the fear of a strong opposition and the challenge that fuels his political dogma.
I disagree with you. Some of us view people that participate in so-called "Neutral" clans as taking a political stance that is contrary to ours. They ARE the enemy, even if they don't have war tags.
Neutral clans suck up resources that politically active clans require. People on their clan roster are people that we can't have on ours. Raid boss drops they get don't go into our clanwarehouse. Reputation points they get, we forgoe. Castles they own, we don't get taxes from. When they get items to sell (like s-grade recipes and items), we must lower our own selling prices to compete with them. Therefore, its in our interest to discourage players from participating in those clans and to encourage them in supporting our own.
Why should players who refuse to take part in the politics of the game be able to get everything easily without fighting for it? If they want something, they need to fight for it, pay for it, or support us against our enemies in some fashion to earn access to it. The only thing sparing them most of the time is the karma system.
We can't force anyone to quit. Players make that choice for themselves. Some people are just quitters! Others are strong willed and will continue pushing towards their goals until they reach them. Nobody likes a quitter anyway.
With that kind of outlook, I would never be part of your clan anyway.
I see your point there, kind of leechy to get the rewards from killing a boss (subclass bosses box) but not putting worth the work (dealing with multiple clan wars, siege poltics, etc) and then exping in peace.
I guess I'm more at peace with the whole "unfairness" of it all being out there in the real world with a real job and all that. Unfairness and bullies abound anyway :)
And if living were left to people like you, we would all still be stuck in the state of nature. However we are not so it should be reasonable to say this outlook is not what most logical people want and runs contrary to how societies actually function and why they were formed fromt he the getgo. To pprevent people like you from stealing from people like us who just want to mozy along through life as pleasantly as possible.
And if living were left to people like you, we would all still be stuck in the state of nature. However we are not so it should be reasonable to say this outlook is not what most logical people want and runs contrary to how societies actually function and why they were formed fromt he the getgo. To pprevent people like you from stealing from people like us who just want to mozy along through life as pleasantly as possible.
I too accept that large clans which are succesful should get some rewards, compared to other players in other clans. But, when I read Gordon's post, the underlying philosphy reads very close to something like "The sand box and all the toys in it must belong to me. If any toys in the sandbox do not belong to me and I cannot take possesion, then I must break them and force the other kid to leave the sandbox." Carried to it's ultimate conclusion, there would be nobody left on the server but the one clan/alliance. After which, I expect the server would become a ghost town.
And if living were left to people like you, we would all still be stuck in the state of nature. However we are not so it should be reasonable to say this outlook is not what most logical people want and runs contrary to how societies actually function and why they were formed fromt he the getgo. To pprevent people like you from stealing from people like us who just want to mozy along through life as pleasantly as possible.
A game .. yeah. Looking on how many people care much more for what is going on in the game then realife can make anyone think otherwise :).
Well, I for on like to go "through life as pleasantly as possible".. :eek:.
Even if this is a.. umm.. game :eek: I do not want to feel too much of day to day life frustrations, enough of it IRL, with the real live... jerx.
Fighting other players can be uber fun, but getting trashed by a powerfull ally for beeing a neutral that "is lowering my overall gain !!!!" is... wth?
Sure, the main reason people rise to "power" in these games is because they want to dominate, to rule everyone else, and this thirst for power (virtual? so? the sensation is good anyway..) is what drives most.. no, all actions in mmorpgs in general. That's natural, but also primeval... (hehe, just like the new island :o).
Winning counts, and domination counts.
All hail ... umm, nevermind.
I don't see how changing the system in Lineage 2 would make it better and more casual player friendly without ruining the Lineage 2 concept, however, there is room for improvement without ruining the fun of hardcore players.
Not sure if they have the creative developers to make this thou... Hope for their sake they do :).
I just had to do the raid bosses on Lionna and I am not part of a major alliance. After reading this thread, I was prepared to be waiting a month to get it accomplished. I got extremely lucky and arrived the same time a large alliance group was doing all the bosses. They were gracious enough to let me leech along and now I am just waiting for Baium. I guess not all the servers are run by $*@holes.
the subclass was a (big deal) to me
and i spend almost 1,5 year work on it that explence why i was so fustrated
if i hate 1 thing more then PK is be 1 of 1000's
yeah i can have taken a Gladiator class but that will have made my toon a human while it's much more cooler to see it in a none standard format like a elf or orc
see it like walking on normaal boots and walking on nikes yeah both are made for walking but 1 looks cooler then the other subbing was prime goal i set. witch i fault
My post was in respone to Gordon on page 10 where he showed a complete and total disregard for any consideration of what societies are, what characterizes societies of today, how we got to where we are today, and why we got to where we are.
And Kayo, I completely disagree with you. Right now as L2 stands, all the rewards go to the players in big alliances, there are zero rewards which go to players in small alliances.
Neutrals take away resources from politically active clans. I provided concrete examples, which no one has been able to refuse (nor could you with any logical consistency). And you may claim you wouldn't join our clan -- but you're wrong, as history shows many of you have (muahaha). After all, who's going to stay in a clan where they constantly get PKed, never get access to raid bosses or prime leveling spots, have trouble getting gear as a result, etc when they can join a strong clan and have access to all those things?
Smart politically active clans will not support neutral clans at their own expense. This is a perfectly valid tactic in Lineage2, and it has nothing to do with my regard, or lack thereof, of your style of play. If you want our clan's support, help us seige, defend our castles, spy for us, attack our enemies, or bribe us! Otherwise, why should we help you? I'd rather pk you until you disband, and then have less competitors (economical or otherwise) (http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y1/Ravaillac/End-of-INQ.jpg)
The rules of this sandbox allow one "kid" to try to control all the toys. If you don't like it, there's a more friendly sandbox down the street. You chose to play in this one for a reason.
Neutrals are the enemy. They are no less an enemy simple because they cry out "We're not the enemy, dont kill us and let us have the raid boss." Tough luck! This is Lineage 2!
And Kayo, I completely disagree with you. Right now as L2 stands, all the rewards go to the players in big alliances, there are zero rewards which go to players in small alliances.
Few examples:
1. Epic RB's are guarded by the major clans and no one is allowed to kill them.
2. Zaryche is controlled 100% by the major clans...if a neutral or smaller clan gets the sword he or she will have 1-4 heroes and 9 others on his tail to PK him to get the sword within seconds.
3. Small or neutral clans never gets a chance to try out the Olympiad without getting a war declaration or KOS on the char entering the Olympiad.
Neutrals are the enemy. They are no less an enemy simple because they cry out "We're not the enemy, dont kill us and let us have the raid boss." Tough luck! This is Lineage 2!
And some people wonder why a single EQ2 or WoW server has more players than L2NA in its entirety...
Neutrals are the enemy. They are no less an enemy simple because they cry out "We're not the enemy, dont kill us and let us have the raid boss." Tough luck! This is Lineage 2!
And some people wonder why a single EQ2 or WoW server has more players than L2NA in its entirety...
I think I got on the right server.
The wisest words has came from players that plays on Lionna.
Neutrals take away resources from politically active clans. I provided concrete examples, which no one has been able to refuse (nor could you with any logical consistency).
Really? You mentioned doing raids and owning castles. Are you able to raid at all times and all bosses? Can you? I highly doubt that you can, and so why shouldnt others be able to? If you want to pvp for a boss that is allowed in the game, but that is not the topic of this thread. As for castle owning well sign up to siege and then that clan isnt neutral anymore is it?
And you may claim you wouldn't join our clan -- but you're wrong, as history shows many of you have (muahaha). After all, who's going to stay in a clan where they constantly get PKed, never get access to raid bosses or prime leveling spots, have trouble getting gear as a result, etc when they can join a strong clan and have access to all those things?
Not everyone shares your ego. Not everyone wants to play the game the way you do. If a neutral clan is not challenging you to castles, levelling spots, or dare we say raid bosses I can see them not wanting to join you. Some people prefer the smaller clans and playing with their friends. They do not want to join a power hungry clan and have others hunt them for it. So why should you hunt them? What is stopping you from allowing them to finish the subclass boss when they will not take anything away from you? If they are not asking for the xp or the epic drops how does this hurt your clan or alliance? If you dare say the olympiad you are full of it because of all the point trading.
Smart politically active clans will not support neutral clans at their own expense. This is a perfectly valid tactic in Lineage2, and it has nothing to do with my regard, or lack thereof, of your style of play. If you want our clan's support, help us seige, defend our castles, spy for us, attack our enemies, or bribe us! Otherwise, why should we help you? I'd rather pk you until you disband, and then have less competitors (economical or otherwise).
Does the single person asking to poke bauim then leave or talk to the box after Cabrio is down really asking for much? They are not asking for adena, drops, or xp. If you want neutral clans to aid you then maybe you should be less of an *** in the way you go about it. Many people like to siege and would like to take part in it. However you think they must help you to help you. What do they get out of it? Anything? You have to give a little to get a little.
The rules of this sandbox allow one "kid" to try to control all the toys. If you don't like it, there's a more friendly sandbox down the street. You chose to play in this one for a reason.
Amazing....just amazing. People choose to play a game for enjoyment and relaxation. Maybe your clan/alliance has different motives, but what gives you the right to dictate how others play? You want to play the game by yourself? You want to be like the kid in the sand box by himself without friends because everyone said screw you and left? That is the road your travelling down. The only rules in this game we have to play by are NC Softs not yours. You really need to take a step back and look at how you play a video game. This isn't world politics, war, or even a feud. It is a video game where a collective of people around the world come to play. It is not necessary to ruin it for everyone just because you want to satisify your selfish ego.
If you guys are happy on a server where everyone cooperates together then that's fine. But a lot of us are attracted to L2 because it's a competitive game.
If you just want to level in peace and never have conflict with other players, there are plenty of games that provide that option.
If you guys are happy on a server where everyone cooperates together then that's fine. But a lot of us are attracted to L2 because it's a competitive game.
If you just want to level in peace and never have conflict with other players, there are plenty of games that provide that option.
You cite the lack of an example. You used the lowering of price of S grade gear as an example. If there are no smaller, neutral clans, who are you going to seel the S grade gear to?
As for me, I don't know if I will ever do anything that requires goin after a high-level raid boss, since I'm in a small neutral alliance. And really, I don't care if players join big alliances/clans and compete for castles or whatever; I know that's part of the game. It's just the notion that some people have that they must control everything that I find wrong.
FYI, when I used to play FPS games, I did see some of this attitude of anything goes. Sometimes it was put up with. But, sometimes the server emptied after a totally lop-sided game.
If you guys are happy on a server where everyone cooperates together then that's fine. But a lot of us are attracted to L2 because it's a competitive game.
A lot of you are attracted to L2 because it's a Korean carebear social grinding game with PvP elements that allow you to screw others if you cheat. And that's exactly why a lot of you play the game: to screw others with cheating. Tell us how active your clan would have been in PvP if noone of you had ever bought adena for RL money.
If you wanted to play a competitive game, you'd choose something more like CS, where everyone can compete just by joining. Ask yourself why, instead of CS, you are trying to "compete" in the game where top "competitors" are mostly cheaters and people with no real life.
If you just want to level in peace and never have conflict with other players, there are plenty of games that provide that option.
Again Gordon's points (as personally repulsive to me as they may be), have not been countered. The "right" he and large clans have to ruin the game for others and deny players and clans the ability to advance are intrinsically built into the game mechanics and are enforced by NCS' policies.
Might makes right in l2. It is a competitive game and as stated, there are thousands of other choices if you can't or don't want to deal with the competition.
No one has a "Right" to Cabrio's box or Baium's blood. You have a "right" (and even that is a privelege granted by NCS' discretion) to pay your fee and compete for hunting spots and quest mobs etc.
And let's not overtly accuse people of cheating. Do some people cheat to gain their advantages? I think we know the answer and on our home servers, I think we all have a very good idea who is doing what. That said, even if there were no cheating, the mindset and tactics that Gordon expressed would still be a viable part of the game.
Tyranny is alive and well in L2.
That said, Tyranny is always a fear mechanism whereby those in power fear losing it and take unscrupulous means to gain and hold it.
Few people actually champion sportsmanship and honor, and if you do... it's a choice, not a requirement, the same as tyranny and dishonor.
Again Gordon's points (as personally repulsive to me as they may be), have not been countered. The "right" he and large clans have to ruin the game for others and deny players and clans the ability to advance are intrinsically built into the game mechanics and are enforced by NCS' policies.
If the point is that NCsoft's lack of enforcement screws the game, then there's nothing to argue. But I doubt that's what Gordon wanted to say.
Might makes right in l2. It is a competitive game and as stated, there are thousands of other choices if you can't or don't want to deal with the competition.
L2 is not that simple. Competition is just one of its aspects. Macroeconomics is another one. As a castle owner, you wouldn't want to count neutrals, your main source of ingame income, as your enemy.
Unless your main source of ingame income is somewhat different, that is.
Of course economics is a part of the game. That said, keeping a chokehold on the server's ability to cut into your profits and force them to abide by your economic structure IS a viable strategy.
Whether it is a sound economic plan when compared to other styles of server economy is a debate for economics scholars. But if it works for Gordon's clan's satisfaction, that's all that matters.
That in no way forces illegal methods of wealth upon anyone (that is a personal decision that players make if they choose to do that... no one is forced). There is plenty of money to be legally made in-game, especially if you control the economy through force.
Why must people make silly arguments that put me in a position to defend Gordon?
Of course economics is a part of the game. That said, keeping a chokehold on the server's ability to cut into your profits and force them to abide by your economic structure IS a viable strategy.
If your "economic structure" is bot-driven, then maybe. But if you need to earn your PvP-spent money ingame, why would you voluntarily kill such markets as, say, weapon enchants for subclassed neutrals?
And even if we are talking only about competition. It's a game, you are expected to get fun from it (and if you are playing for something else than fun, isn't it time to visit your doctor?). If you are getting fun from competing, it's in your own interests not to stifle the competition.
Whether it is a sound economic plan when compared to other styles of server economy is a debate for economics scholars. But if it works for Gordon's clan's satisfaction, that's all that matters.
I don't think it works well for them either. What server are they from, Devianne? IS there a lot of people online to actually play with them? Or are they all quit or rerolled on friendlier servers?
That in no way forces illegal methods of wealth upon anyone (that is a personal decision that players make if they choose to do that... no one is forced). There is plenty of money to be legally made in-game, especially if you control the economy through force.
And which ones of them are better than trading with a healthy and wealthy population of neutrals?
Why must people make silly arguments that put me in a position to defend Gordon?
Some people posting in this thread make an aweful lot of (false) assumptions.
Just because people have a different play style from you doesn't mean they cheat. Just because people have a different play style from you, doesn't mean they are so powerful that they control the server.
And anyway, these assumptions are irrelevant to the point: that your interests may well be in conflict with ours even if you don't have a war tag over your head. As far as I can tell, no, it doesn't serve our interests to have you around.
Enforcement of rules is seemingly irrelevant to this discussion. Both the conflict-avoiding clans and the conflict-seeking clans are playing by the rules.
If you're having a problem getting your subclass quest done because conflict-seeking clans are PKing you, I suggest that you gain their favor by proving them with a motive to act differently. You could register to defend their castle, you could spy on their enemies for them, or you could simply offer them a nice bribe. Welcome to Lineage 2.
Do some people cheat? (yes) Does everyone cheat? (no)
Is there a reasonable or worthy excuse for cheating? (no)
Must one cheat to play L2? (no) Must one cheat to gain high levels in L2 (no)
Must one cheat to gear themselves in l2? (no)
Must one cheat to run a clan? (no) Is there a way to cheat your leadership abilities? (no)
May players who do not cheat work together under good leadership, gain levels, use sensible economics and earn top gear, recruit members who work within the organization and dominate a server? (yes)
Your hang-up on cheating is really making you sound foolish, and this is coming from one of the more outspoken proponents of legit play.
Ok we get it, cheating is bad, now can we get back onto the topic of the tactics of oppression please, and whether NCS should consider adjusting certain quests so that more players have access to end-game content without being held hostage to the will of the likes of Gordon?
Thanks!
Now Krissa, one point I do agree with, is that if a server is so overwhelmingly dominated by an alliance that it actually drives other players off the server in significant numbers, that said alliance will have ruined the game for itself... at least for a period of time. Eventually players get bored or get on each others nerves, factions break, competition re-emerges, and returning/new players fill in gaps again.
It is a cycle, although the cycle populations are doomed to grow ever smaller, but that's based more on NCS' lack of real marketing than player factors.
These concrete examples you provided are about as substantial as a ghost, and able to hold up as much weight. All I see is a bunch of me me me.
In the 3 years that encompasses the entirety of NC L2 history, there has been as many and as drastic periods of growth and decay in the large clans as in the small clans. Just as there has been as much movement from the large clans to the small clans as there has been from the small clans to the large clans. For your statement that everyone moves to the large clans to be true, I would need to log into L2 right now and see nothing but large clans, or a bunch of small clans subservient to a large clan. Since when I do log in everyday I see a bunch of small independent clans I can only assume you are quite incorrect. Indeed, for your statement to be true, and given the length of period we are dealing this, as well as the type of process we are dealing with according to your assumptions (a stochastic process of a random walk with one absorbing boundary), we would need to see that every person who is part of a server belongs only to a large clan or a small clan subservient to a large clan. Smaller clans banding together to keep a larger clan from becoming too strong or to preserve their own independence is reminiscent of what is called the balance of power. Because there is a balance of power, anyone one kid is prevented from being able to have all the toys in the sandbox. If you don’t like it, I believe you can go to a more private (though illegal) sandbox.
The actively aggressive clans (which you falsely labeled politically active) would do much better to attempt to gain the support of the passively aggressive and actively non-aggressive clans, as this would give you [an actively aggressive clan] a much larger number of people to use to defend or siege a castle, raid a boss with you, attack your enemies or spy for you than you would have ever had were you to make a regular policy of aggravating all these clans against yourself. Here we must actually distinguish and define our terms. A passively aggressive clan is a clan which is not currently actively aggressive with or for you, but can be made actively aggressive for you or against you in the future. An actively non-aggressive clan is a clan which is not and will not ever end up fighting against you provided you do not actively aggravate it. Therefore it is obvious that only a passively aggressive clan which has the nature of going to be actively aggressive will ever pose a threat to you. The problem however is not being able to distinguish a passively aggressive clan from an actively non-aggressive clan owing to a lack of information on the nature of the clan. Do not suddenly think this justifies attacking any clan you see because you are unsure if they possess the property of going to be actively aggressive. The passively aggressive clans can be made actively aggressive for you against the clans you are actively aggressive against provided you do no aggravate them by attacking them on sight. And the actively non-aggressive clans which do not possess the property of about to be actively aggressive will only retain this property towards you so long as you do not attack them on sight. But if you make a habit of attacking any passively aggressive or actively non-aggressive clan on sight, you make all the other clans of these natures believe you have hostile intentions towards them as well as the clans are you being actively hostile against. This causes clans to be aggravated by proxy of your actions on other clans of similar natures. This great mass of small clans can then form into one large unit to remove the aggressor who they feel threatens their interests. The one great mass of small clans being a great mass, is a direct threat to the original active aggressor which was created by its policies of active aggression on clans who were not actively aggressive against it, and which would not have existed in their current cohesive and hostile state had the original actively hostile clan not maintained a policy of open hostility to clans who were not openly hostile with it. Therefore clans are only brought from inactive hostility to active hostility by active acts of hostility enacted on them.
Where I hunt, there are usually one or two other mages sharing the exact spot with me. Certainly we could fight amongst ourselves for complete control and absolute access to that spot, but we are all logical enough to understand that would not be in our best interests. By fighting for the spot, we are risking dying and losing hard to earn exp, as well as using our limited amount of time no longer in hunting and gaining exp, but in pvping which does not earn one any exp or adena. And even if one person did manage to gain dominance over the area, there is a huge incentive for the losers to band together and very easily overthrown the previous winner. Such assured inability to hold onto hunting grounds and the huge loss from losing but lack of gain from winning is not all that different from the balance of power maintained by the mutually assured destruction world.
A large clan which is large must also have large needs from the large number of people each demanding their own set of goods. Perhaps your clan is truly so large that it actually does provide entirely for itself and no member ever takes a trip to Giran, I just do not know. What I do know is that there must be some clan which calls itself large which has members who travel to the free market in Giran to exchange the goods they earned but do not want for goods they did not earn but do want. This is only made possible by having a market large enough to ensure that there will be something willing to buy what you don’t want and sell what you do want. Such is the point of a market. Because each person is limited by time and ability to only being able to produce a certain number of goods (in reference to number of types and quantity of any type) and these goods are not always the ones they need or want though they might need or want goods they cannot make, we see the need for markets. Markets allow the exchanging of goods you do not want or need for goods you do want or need. There is only incentive to truly maintain the necessarily large market if each participant is able to freely exchange, produce and consume whatever goods they please, something which could not and did not happen during periods where one authority exerts overly strict controls over the market. Hence all those neutrals you say are stealing from you, actually are the ones providing you with useful goods. Indeed, I have even seen exchanges between clans who were actively hostile with one another when one clan bought or sold from the opposing clan.
Concluding, the clans you label neutral are not the clans who are harming you, but rather it is the clans who have not left the Hobbesian state of nature who are harming the other clans who have not left the Hobbesian state of nature.
Pamean - you touch on one of the topics that I consider to be a flaw in the game design. Actually it's an extremely serious flaw.
It is far too easy to "dominate" a server and oppress your opposition to the point that they begin quitting.
This thread is a prime example. It is a fairly easy thing for a clan/alliance to "lockdown" key high level quests, including the subclass, 3rd class change, and S grade armor and weapon recipe quests. It may not be a 100% 24/7 lockdown, but it does not have to be in order to be very effective.
The end result of doing this though is unhealthy for the game, because it will cause people to quit.
That right there.. is poor game design.
I do agree that these sorts of things should be competed for, but because of the game's design with respect to the amount of time it takes to complete the quests it is far to easy to dominate in these particular areas.
May players who do not cheat work together under good leadership, gain levels, use sensible economics and earn top gear, recruit members who work within the organization and dominate a server? (yes)
No, not dominate. They can do the rest, though (except maybe epics on some servers).
Ok we get it, cheating is bad,
It wasn't my point. My point was that you cannot treat neutrals as enemies if your economic viability is based on the live players.
now can we get back onto the topic of the tactics of oppression please, and whether NCS should consider adjusting certain quests so that more players have access to end-game content without being held hostage to the will of the likes of Gordon?
I'd prefer more endgame players on my server, not on Gordon's (you know, players that can reach Noblesse are a valuable resource for a server). And as there is no need for such change in quests on my server, I'd prefer this change not to be made.
What does one have to do with the other?
A legit player can level and gear, can join other legit players who do the same, can organize and recruit likeminded players, can sack a castle and increase in power, can continue to grow, organize and employ solid war and econimic tactics until it outshines the competition, can then begin placing a squeeze on competition and eventrually dominate.
You insist that one MUST cheat in order to do this? If cheats didn't exist, would no one be able to dominate?
There is no reason legit players could not dominate a server... except for that cheating is so rampant, and gives such a significant edge to those who do it, that it would be very difficult for the legit crew to overcome.
All things being equal.. even if there were a cheat free server, it would still be far too easy for a single clan or alliance to dominate in such a way that it may remove the fun element for many. That right there is a design flaw.. a bad one.
What does one have to do with the other?
A legit player can level and gear, can join other legit players who do the same, can organize and recruit likeminded players, can sack a castle and increase in power, can continue to grow, organize and employ solid war and econimic tactics until it outshines the competition, can then begin placing a squeeze on competition and eventrually dominate.
You insist that one MUST cheat in order to do this? If cheats didn't exist, would no one be able to dominate?
The way the game is played today, on our servers, to dominate at the level we are discussing, absolutely requires cheating.
The reason is that the benefits of using cheats is far to great and is insurmountable by the legit players.
ie. A crew of 40 cheating players could easily have 300 accounts farming adena for them. There goes that economic advantage the legit players thought they had. In addition to that, you end up with noblesse appearing out of thin air, people who level in their sleep, etc, etc. There's no way legit players can compete with that.
It is because L2 at it's base line is time based.
ie. If I play 20 hours per week, but you play 40. Assuming we both play fairly smartly, and make decent use of our time, you are going to beat me. Suppose that instead of you playing 40 hours per week, you use a 3rd party program that controls 9 accounts, and they are each now playing in excess of 100 hours per week. Umm.. yeah.. there's no way that I will even come close to competing against you with me 20 hrs per week, or even if I were to put in 40 or even 60.
So.. because cheating is so rampant and totally unchecked... in order to dominate a server, like we are talking about.. yes.. it is a requirement at this point. or.. at the very least, a legit crew would have to control (using whatever means) a couple of those unlegit clans, and perhaps take advantage of some of the grey areas in the rules. (like powerleveling)
What did you expect to find? We're not running a philanthropy. You've got some nice theories, but in practice, they don't bear out.
First of all, nearly every server IS dominated by the strongest PVP clan on the server. They can get any resource that they want if they make it their top priority. If they want a certain raid, nobody else can have it. If they want a certain castle, nobody else can have it. If they want a certain hunting ground, nobody else can have it.
2nd of all, the pvp clans generally don't need or want the neutral clans, either militarily or economically, because they already tend to operate as closed systems. Moreover, when it comes to PVP, the neutral clans are generally inexperienced (by comparison) and aren't able to contribute very much in direct conflicts.
3rd of all, there's a HUGE difference between hunting grounds designed to support 1-2 players and those designed to support 9-person groups. It may not be in a mage's interest to try to lock another mage out of that hunting area (although I disagree with you on this point as well, because I think it is in our interest to lock down EVERY area that we actively want to hunt in), but it surely is in one clan's interest to lock other clans out of the best hunting areas (e.g. Imperial Tomb, Pagans, Monastery of Silence, Forge of Gods).
You attempt to justify the existence of the conflict-avoiding clans by arguing that they contribute economic benefits to the conflict-seeking clans. But this is based upon a subjective judgment (by you) that the benefit of their market participation outweighs the detriment of their market competition. And I disagree with your judgment. Our clan, and others like it, would be better off without the participation of the conflict-averse clans in the market. We don't need them, and we don't want them. I can make more money for my clan if they are on the sidelines. And more importantly, I can prevent resources from falling into the hands of enemies if I can control access to those resources. So for example, if I can lock down IT and Forge of Gods, nobody else can easily obtain s-grade weapons. If I allow neutral clans to hunt there, they'll farm and sell those recipes, and some number of them will fall into the hands of the competition.
A more essential point is this: why would I want to encourage and foster the existence of non-pvp clans when I'd much prefer that every other clan on the server participates in PVP, either as a friend or an enemy? After all, many (although perhaps not all) of the players that are members of these clans would participate in pvp-based clans if that was their only viable option.
What does one have to do with the other?
A legit player can level and gear, can join other legit players who do the same, can organize and recruit likeminded players, can sack a castle and increase in power, can continue to grow, organize and employ solid war and econimic tactics until it outshines the competition, can then begin placing a squeeze on competition and eventrually dominate.
You insist that one MUST cheat in order to do this? If cheats didn't exist, would no one be able to dominate?
The way the game is played today, on our servers, to dominate at the level we are discussing, absolutely requires cheating.
The reason is that the benefits of using cheats is far to great and is insurmountable by the legit players.
ie. A crew of 40 cheating players could easily have 300 accounts farming adena for them. There goes that economic advantage the legit players thought they had. In addition to that, you end up with noblesse appearing out of thin air, people who level in their sleep, etc, etc. There's no way legit players can compete with that.
It is because L2 at it's base line is time based.
ie. If I play 20 hours per week, but you play 40. Assuming we both play fairly smartly, and make decent use of our time, you are going to beat me. Suppose that instead of you playing 40 hours per week, you use a 3rd party program that controls 9 accounts, and they are each now playing in excess of 100 hours per week. Umm.. yeah.. there's no way that I will even come close to competing against you with me 20 hrs per week, or even if I were to put in 40 or even 60.
So.. because cheating is so rampant and totally unchecked... in order to dominate a server, like we are talking about.. yes.. it is a requirement at this point. or.. at the very least, a legit crew would have to control (using whatever means) a couple of those unlegit clans, and perhaps take advantage of some of the grey areas in the rules. (like powerleveling)
Sorry, but you're just wrong. Server domination does not require cheating. Sure, cheating would facilitate server domination, but it is not a required precondition of server domination.
It's just a natural tendency of those who are not at the top to rationalize it by saying the dominant force has cheated instead of acknowledging that the dominant force has more resources, or has deployed their resources more effectively.
Moreover, there is NO faction that is so dominant on any server that it could withstand a cohesive rebellion from the rest of the server. OR, in the alternative, any faction that becomes so dominant would eventually weaken either through internal strife or because inactivity levels would increase as the boredom level of those on the dominant side increases.
What did you expect to find? We're not running a philanthropy. You've got some nice theories, but in practice, they don't bear out.
First of all, nearly every server IS dominated by the strongest PVP clan on the server. They can get any resource that they want if they make it their top priority. If they want a certain raid, nobody else can have it. If they want a certain castle, nobody else can have it. If they want a certain hunting ground, nobody else can have it.
2nd of all, the pvp clans generally don't need or want the neutral clans, either militarily or economically, because they already tend to operate as closed systems. Moreover, when it comes to PVP, the neutral clans are generally inexperienced (by comparison) and aren't able to contribute very much in direct conflicts.
3rd of all, there's a HUGE difference between hunting grounds designed to support 1-2 players and those designed to support 9-person groups. It may not be in a mage's interest to try to lock another mage out of that hunting area (although I disagree with you on this point as well, because I think it is in our interest to lock down EVERY area that we actively want to hunt in), but it surely is in one clan's interest to lock other clans out of the best hunting areas (e.g. Imperial Tomb, Pagans, Monastery of Silence, Forge of Gods).
You attempt to justify the existence of the conflict-avoiding clans by arguing that they contribute economic benefits to the conflict-seeking clans. But this is based upon a subjective judgment (by you) that the benefit of their market participation outweighs the detriment of their market competition. And I disagree with your judgment. Our clan, and others like it, would be better off without the participation of the conflict-averse clans in the market. We don't need them, and we don't want them. I can make more money for my clan if they are on the sidelines. And more importantly, I can prevent resources from falling into the hands of enemies if I can control access to those resources. So for example, if I can lock down IT and Forge of Gods, nobody else can easily obtain s-grade weapons. If I allow neutral clans to hunt there, they'll farm and sell those recipes, and some number of them will fall into the hands of the competition.
A more essential point is this: why would I want to encourage and foster the existence of non-pvp clans when I'd much prefer that every other clan on the server participates in PVP, either as a friend or an enemy? After all, many (although perhaps not all) of the players that are members of these clans would participate in pvp-based clans if that was their only viable option.
Put simply, the result of your actions is that you will be left with no one to fight against you.
What does one have to do with the other?
A legit player can level and gear, can join other legit players who do the same, can organize and recruit likeminded players, can sack a castle and increase in power, can continue to grow, organize and employ solid war and econimic tactics until it outshines the competition, can then begin placing a squeeze on competition and eventrually dominate.
You insist that one MUST cheat in order to do this? If cheats didn't exist, would no one be able to dominate?
The way the game is played today, on our servers, to dominate at the level we are discussing, absolutely requires cheating.
The reason is that the benefits of using cheats is far to great and is insurmountable by the legit players.
ie. A crew of 40 cheating players could easily have 300 accounts farming adena for them. There goes that economic advantage the legit players thought they had. In addition to that, you end up with noblesse appearing out of thin air, people who level in their sleep, etc, etc. There's no way legit players can compete with that.
It is because L2 at it's base line is time based.
ie. If I play 20 hours per week, but you play 40. Assuming we both play fairly smartly, and make decent use of our time, you are going to beat me. Suppose that instead of you playing 40 hours per week, you use a 3rd party program that controls 9 accounts, and they are each now playing in excess of 100 hours per week. Umm.. yeah.. there's no way that I will even come close to competing against you with me 20 hrs per week, or even if I were to put in 40 or even 60.
So.. because cheating is so rampant and totally unchecked... in order to dominate a server, like we are talking about.. yes.. it is a requirement at this point. or.. at the very least, a legit crew would have to control (using whatever means) a couple of those unlegit clans, and perhaps take advantage of some of the grey areas in the rules. (like powerleveling)
Sorry, but you're just wrong. Server domination does not require cheating. Sure, cheating would facilitate server domination, but it is not a required precondition of server domination.
It's just a natural tendency of those who are not at the top to rationalize it by saying the dominant force has cheated instead of acknowledging that the dominant force has more resources, or has deployed their resources more effectively.
Moreover, there is NO faction that is so dominant on any server that it could withstand a cohesive rebellion from the rest of the server. OR, in the alternative, any faction that becomes so dominant would eventually weaken either through internal strife or because inactivity levels would increase as the boredom level of those on the dominant side increases.
I disagree. Acquiring and Maintaining the level of server domination you described absolutely requires cheating. The reason - as you stated, your competitors, for whatever reason, will likely cheat to gain back any advantage you have. Certainly leadership, organisation, etc, etc play a part in making a clan successful.
At the same time though, a clan that has all of that cannot and will not be able to compete against a clan that is also well organised, has good leadership, but also cheats.
Simple numbers and math, and L2 is a game of simple numbers and math.
Bighands, like it or not, L2 is an MMo. It's not an FPS. Thus, the player is rewarded for the time they put into the game. One might feel it is unfair that another player has more time to devote to the game, but they are wrong.
You have thousands of games to choose from. If you choose to play a game whose rewards are based on the amount of time and effort you can give the game, then you are willingly exposing yourself to either taking a longer time to reach the upper echelon, or devoting more time and effort than your competition to get ahead.
I knew this going in and have been perfectly willing to accept my "place" on the server. There are level caps and slowly but surely I am closing in on them. I have 2 jobs, do the radio thing, have a family... I still play l2. But I accept the fact that theer will be players with more time and thus more dominance. I don't cry about it.
If I wanted to enter a game, spend 15 minutes and have access to everything everyone else had, I'd play Counterstrike. You can too. You can't in any seriousness complain about people having more time and thus more success in the grind game of all grind games. If so, you have simply chosen the wrong game.
A clan CAN legitimately rise to the top IF there are enough people with the discipline (and honor) to stay legit and work for it. Sadly, there is a propensity for people to cheat (because they can't handle having to actually compete) and then others who are weak in spirit "give-in" because they feel they "have" to cheat to compete with the other cheaters.
It's simply an excuse.
Unfortunately, it seems that the number of players who have the desire (and courage) to play the game without cheats are often too few to amass a force large enough to combat the sheer number of people who resort to illegal behavior.
It could and can be done.... but so long as people buy into the philosophy that the only way to reach the top is to cheat.... they will.
Bighands, like it or not, L2 is an MMo. It's not an FPS. Thus, the player is rewarded for the time they put into the game. One might feel it is unfair that another player has more time to devote to the game, but they are wrong.
You have thousands of games to choose from. If you choose to play a game whose rewards are based on the amount of time and effort you can give the game, then you are willingly exposing yourself to either taking a longer time to reach the upper echelon, or devoting more time and effort than your competition to get ahead.
I knew this going in and have been perfectly willing to accept my "place" on the server. There are level caps and slowly but surely I am closing in on them. I have 2 jobs, do the radio thing, have a family... I still play l2. But I accept the fact that theer will be players with more time and thus more dominance. I don't cry about it.
If I wanted to enter a game, spend 15 minutes and have access to everything everyone else had, I'd play Counterstrike. You can too. You can't in any seriousness complain about people having more time and thus more success in the grind game of all grind games. If so, you have simply chosen the wrong game.
A clan CAN legitimately rise to the top IF there are enough people with the discipline (and honor) to stay legit and work for it. Sadly, there is a propensity for people to cheat (because they can't handle having to actually compete) and then others who are weak in spirit "give-in" because they feel they "have" to cheat to compete with the other cheaters.
It's simply an excuse.
Unfortunately, it seems that the number of players who have the desire (and courage) to play the game without cheats are often too few to amass a force large enough to combat the sheer number of people who resort to illegal behavior.
It could and can be done.... but so long as people buy into the philosophy that the only way to reach the top is to cheat.... they will.
You asked the question, why so unhappy about the honest answer?
I gave you the reality of it.
I'm pretty sure that this is what I said, just in other words:
Unfortunately, it seems that the number of players who have the desire (and courage) to play the game without cheats are often too few to amass a force large enough to combat the sheer number of people who resort to illegal behavior.
So what you're saying is that if one person cheats, everyone else must cheat?
Of course, it's not what we are saying.
We are saying that with all these thousands of bots providing material support to cheaters, any alliance that is going to dominate a server is forced to cheat. If you don't cheat, it's OK, and you are actually playing a more interesting game... but you won't dominate.
So what you're saying is that if one person cheats, everyone else must cheat?
Of course, it's not what we are saying.
We are saying that with all these thousands of bots providing material support to cheaters, any alliance that is going to dominate a server is forced to cheat. If you don't cheat, it's OK, and you are actually playing a more interesting game... but you won't dominate.
I'm pretty sure that's a fallacy.
Straw man? Yes, it is indeed a fallacy.
I don't think that's true because it relies on the assumption that cheaters are as good at the game as legit players, and I think the opposite is true.
I think that legitimate players are much more efficient with their time and money. Yeah, cheaters earn a lot more money through botting or ebaying, but they waste the vast majority of it not knowing or not caring about market prices, blowing things up, etc.
I admire Krissa's staunch anti-cheater sentiment and it's great to know that others share my disdain of cheaters. That said, she's apparently given up hope that she/we can achieve in this game. Sorry to see.
I don't think that's true because it relies on the assumption that cheaters are as good at the game as legit players, and I think the opposite is true.
Well, your statement is pretty false considering who's in power on most servers.
If you guys are happy on a server where everyone cooperates together then that's fine. But a lot of us are attracted to L2 because it's a competitive game.
A lot of you are attracted to L2 because it's a Korean carebear social grinding game with PvP elements that allow you to screw others if you cheat. And that's exactly why a lot of you play the game: to screw others with cheating. Tell us how active your clan would have been in PvP if noone of you had ever bought adena for RL money.
If you wanted to play a competitive game, you'd choose something more like CS, where everyone can compete just by joining. Ask yourself why, instead of CS, you are trying to "compete" in the game where top "competitors" are mostly cheaters and people with no real life.
If you just want to level in peace and never have conflict with other players, there are plenty of games that provide that option.
But whom will you pwn then? :p
rofl who said dont play cs o.O, i was cal-p in cs b4 i stopped playin cuz it just lost its fun soo uhhh yeah lol
a pure pvp game lost its fun, but a game designed entirely around dedicating time and effort to increase one's power appeals to someone who wants to skip those elements in order to just pvp....
Sounds like without an unfair advantage, the fun runs out for you?
You got to define cheating before you have this argument. A lot of what most people don't see as cheating is actually is. Its called grey areas where one person may get banned for it and the next get away with it. And yes most of the top people on the server cheat if you go strictly by the EULA/TOS but NCSOFT doesn't enforce a lot of it.
Cheating is not defined by getting banned or not getting banned. Cheating is defined as breaking the rules fo the game. The rules in this case being the EULA and Terms of Conduct.
It has nothing to do with what they can or will enforce.
"cheating" is defined by the player base totally. The EULA might be a small factor but nothing large.
Aka: Some people use an automated Seller in town that yells WTS or WTB at specific intervals. EULA says this is bannable however most of the player population will say that isn't cheating.
People go out and lvl toons either for a specific purpose or to hero with a 78 boxed pp, WC, or SE. Many people will say that is cheating but it isn't against the EULA.
Bighands is 100% correct. Zoomhack=cheat. Automatic seller, whatever that is (assuming some program runs it for you)=cheat. Certain programs not to be named=cheat. rmt=cheat. It's very simple. It's only "clouded" if you are trying to make an excuse to get away with cheating.
IF we speak about server dominating allies on current NC NA servers, you don't need to define what exactly isn't cheating. Just stating that RL relations with (such as operating or trading with operators of) automated adena farming toons is cheating should be enough.
I can repeat, the point was that as castle owners you can treat live neutrals as enemies only if your main source of income for your castle guards, courage charms, CP pots etc. are not live neutrals but some other toons.
a pure pvp game lost its fun, but a game designed entirely around dedicating time and effort to increase one's power appeals to someone who wants to skip those elements in order to just pvp....
Sounds like without an unfair advantage, the fun runs out for you?
unfair advantage o.O, lol maybe its because cs just became to easy and not fun anymore, scrimming the same maps for 5 years can get a lil old, and now i know your gonna say same thing about l2 and grinding but l2 and grinding there are diff things that can happen that add a new element to the game, but when in cs when you are scrimming the same teams over and over using the exact same strats over and over on both sides, it does get a bit stale, and when u wanna go play pub servers and practically every server u go into you get banned cuz noobs think you are cheating cuz ur to good except servers your well known in then ya it does get boring compared to l2. So i guess you can say in pub servers i also had this "unfair advantage", if your saying is true about me then shouldnt i still be playing cs?
Epic boss raids, the organization it takes to accomplish this stuff and all that is a bit more appealing to me now, you all say you chose where u are in ur server and stuff but ae here crying about people that chose there place on the server a different way.
While it's a fine thing to point out people who cry, I'm certainly not one you can point to.
For all of the ability for a player to push their weight around and dominate on a server, I've always dcelared it is part of the nature of the game and should not be subject to NCS interference. That's not the sound of crying. (and no I've never been in a dominating clan).
I also don't go around crying about people who need to cheat to win and in this very thread I've said that if the legits pulled their act together and worked hard to achieve that they could dominate as well.
That said... I'm not about to listen to cowards who need to cheat in order to beat the competition spew lame excuses about having a life, just wanting to pvp and the other diversion tactics designed to mask the truth that they simply could not deal with actually competing within the rules of the game.
L2 is not a "log in and pvp" game. Never was, is not the intention of the devs, and no one can legitimately claim that if PvP was all they wanted that l2 is the only, best or most viable choice of all the many games on the market.
What l2 DOES have is a HUGE disparity between levels and grades and gear. It REQUIRES hours of grinding and dedication not only to level, but to gather adena and mats and organize and party in order to gain the levels and gears to impprove one's ability to Pvp. That is what the game is designed entirely around, no question about it.
But cowards who would rather automatically have level/gear disparity to 'win' a game rather than be forced to compete on a level playing field flock to l2, use illegitimate means to bypass all the competition and then stroke their egos all day.
They are the same people who go to the trophy store, buy a nice big trophy, admire it and invite their friends over to admire it. Oh sure, they'll say they earned, may even come to believe it themselves... heck they paid for it (or their parents did) and heck, they have lives? Who has time to waste practicing and perfecting a sport or skill and play in some stupid lame games.. It's all about the trophy!
Lame is lame is lame.
That said... as a paying subscriber to l2 should your toon's ability to level and participate in end-game content due (specifically) be held hostage to other players' ability/desire to prevent you from finishing end-game quests or should NCS consider adjusting the way these quests are handled? (just to get back to the OP's topic)
You've hit the nail on the head. I myself have no big desire to be part of a big, dominating clan, for a variety of reasons. Rather, I would like to continue playing with the small group of friends I have in my Alliance, and at the same time, I would like to go to max level in the game. Someday, I might also want to play some sub-classes, simply because I have a little bit of desire to play a few classes as alts, but I really don't care to play 1 - 40 anymore. There is even a small chance I might want to try for Noblesse, just for some of the TP priveliges and such, although that seems a little bit remote for me to actually achieve. And I'm wondering if I will find out when I get to 70+ that large clans and alliances will at some point deny all of this to me? I'd like to hear what others have to say. FYI, I play on Seigehardt, and mains are a level 62 Destroyer/WC combo that I love to mostly play in the Cats, and occasionally in other dungeons or fields. I am mentioning that because some friends have told me all the high-level Cats are taken 24/7 by large clans.
Put simply, the result of your actions is that you will be left with no one to fight against you.
After 3 years of application, it appears that there are more people to fight than ever. However, there are a lot fewer neutrals around :-)
I'm calling your bluff on this. After 3 years, the server populations are much smaller than they were at the game's inception. A smaller overall population implies a smaller number of people to be found on the server. With a smaller number of people, there are quite simply fewer possible people to pvp with. This also explains the smaller number of neutral clans. I would counter all the rest of the crap you are trying to say is true, but I haven't the time.
I can repeat, the point was that as castle owners you can treat live neutrals as enemies only if your main source of income for your castle guards, courage charms, CP pots etc. are not live neutrals but some other toons.
This is 100% false. The manor system is entirely self-contained. A clan can sell the seeds to itself, farm them itself, turn them into itself, use the manor-produced rewards itself, and use the craft materials earned at turn-in itself. No Neutrals or Botters needed whatsoever.
That said... as a paying subscriber to l2 should your toon's ability to level and participate in end-game content due (specifically) be held hostage to other players' ability/desire to prevent you from finishing end-game quests or should NCS consider adjusting the way these quests are handled? (just to get back to the OP's topic)
In my opinion, NCsoft should enforce the EULA in an ironclad manor and then yes, you should indeed be "hostage" to the dominant clans. Although really I dont think any clan can make it impossible for you to do a quest, they can only increase the amount of time it takes you to do it.
Put simply, the result of your actions is that you will be left with no one to fight against you.
After 3 years of application, it appears that there are more people to fight than ever. However, there are a lot fewer neutrals around :-)
I'm calling your bluff on this. After 3 years, the server populations are much smaller than they were at the game's inception. A smaller overall population implies a smaller number of people to be found on the server. With a smaller number of people, there are quite simply fewer possible people to pvp with. This also explains the smaller number of neutral clans. I would counter all the rest of the crap you are trying to say is true, but I haven't the time.
At least on Devianne, there is more active pvp now than at any point in the past 2.5+ years. There are more players in a tighter level range, and yes, the Neutral clans have largely failed to carve out a niche for themselves, because every active pvp clan pretty much kills neutrals on sight, with a few exceptions.
I mean really, what kind of promotional pitch are Neutral clans on Devianne going to offer to compete for members: "Join our tightknit community of cool people and get killed constantly by everyone else on the server." Ok, sounds cool -- sign me up!
I can repeat, the point was that as castle owners you can treat live neutrals as enemies only if your main source of income for your castle guards, courage charms, CP pots etc. are not live neutrals but some other toons.
This is 100% false. The manor system is entirely self-contained. A clan can sell the seeds to itself, farm them itself, turn them into itself, use the manor-produced rewards itself, and use the craft materials earned at turn-in itself. No Neutrals or Botters needed whatsoever.
And how do you buy castle guards and courage charms with that?
That said... as a paying subscriber to l2 should your toon's ability to level and participate in end-game content due (specifically) be held hostage to other players' ability/desire to prevent you from finishing end-game quests or should NCS consider adjusting the way these quests are handled? (just to get back to the OP's topic)
In my opinion, NCsoft should enforce the EULA in an ironclad manor and then yes, you should indeed be "hostage" to the dominant clans. Although really I dont think any clan can make it impossible for you to do a quest, they can only increase the amount of time it takes you to do it.
That might explain why I never used the word impossible. I'm keeping things real.
A dedicated clan may not be able to literally make it impossible, but they can get pretty **** close.
All it takes is to keep any one of the subclass bosses down all the time and/or PK anyonw who tries to come near it. The easiest is Baium.
The RB farmer clans in C4 made that quest very nearly impossible, and they for the most part were not PvP heavy clans. I knew several people doing those quests in C4 where it took them 3 months to get the 5 bosses. It could have easily been much worse than that.
The same can be said for the S grade armor recipe quests - although it would be tough to make it totally impossible a clan that is dedicated could make it **** near impossible, or at least make it take months and months to complete.
It goes back to my original argument concerning this thread.
The don't have to make it impossible to ruin the gameplay for many people. Honestly, for most people, they don't even have to get close.
It's just to easy to screw up the gameplay of others.
By the same token, I agree with part of what Gordon says.. this is a PvP game, it's about screwing your competitors, and it's about fighting for what your want.
So it's a very fine line the dev's have to walk.. can't make it to uncompetitive, but at the same time, if it's too easy to ruin the gameplay of the people who don't want that kind of competition.
Exactly! So, the question is: should Quests that directly affect your ability to advance your personal toon be subject to the same methods of ganking and player restriction as objectives that are competition/community based? If not, how should NCS consider adjusting them?
I like what they did with the 3rd class change quest - originally the only way to get it was to kill the RB in the 4 Sepulchers. Once they figured out exactly how hard that is to do, they added in the option to kill the 700 mobs and make it spawn.
So I like the idea of a "easy" path if your clan/ally has what it takes to get it done, or a slightly "harder" path that can be accomplished by an individual.
I call BS on that gordon there was a hell lot more pvp in C2 then any other time in L2 on devianne.
What you have now isnt pvp its ganking.... GANKING IS NOT PVP.
C2/C3 you use to have 150 vs 150 or better fights ..... When was last time outside a siege u seen that kind of fight?
Soar losers have made pvp not fun. I use to take 20% rezzes from 4% losses to go back into a fight just to help i didnt care. Now im not taking a 4% loss from someone who just bought there toon or was given it to them and bought adena to be uber.
If someone works hard for their gear and xp they arent going to pvp against cheaters, and if you woke and realized that you would realize pvp is dead on Devianne, no one fights for their hunting spots anymore you dont have xp groups fighting each other you have a Chant of Victory/hero group killing xp groups like thats pvp.
Exactly! So, the question is: should Quests that directly affect your ability to advance your personal toon be subject to the same methods of ganking and player restriction as objectives that are competition/community based? If not, how should NCS consider adjusting them?
What do you want them to do, put the entire quest inside a peace zone?
These are end-game quests. If you can't get some friends to help you stave off PKers after playing for 75 levels, then you don't deserve to complete it.
Either your clan needs to be strong enough to do it on your own, or you need to team up with other clans with a common goal and help each other. That's L2.
no one fights for their hunting spots anymore you dont have xp groups fighting each other you have a Chant of Victory/hero group killing xp groups like thats pvp.
Chant of Victory is an xp group. This isn't prelude.
oh yea your right CoV is a normal buff for solos and duo in a 60 - 75 range place.... did you fall out of you chair again today gordon... no is going have 78 buff slave unless it was botted bought or a friend quit the game and handed the account over.
So sorry CoV PoF PoW isnt normal xp group level 78 people wouldnt be xping on blue mobs now would they?
Exactly! So, the question is: should Quests that directly affect your ability to advance your personal toon be subject to the same methods of ganking and player restriction as objectives that are competition/community based? If not, how should NCS consider adjusting them?
What do you want them to do, put the entire quest inside a peace zone?
These are end-game quests. If you can't get some friends to help you stave off PKers after playing for 75 levels, then you don't deserve to complete it.
Either your clan needs to be strong enough to do it on your own, or you need to team up with other clans with a common goal and help each other. That's L2.
FYI, I was just clarifying what the question being asked here is.. just clearing some of the propaganda smoke. I haven't quite decided what my personal opinion on the matter is, though I do think tend to swing in favor of allowing players to advance their TOON's progress in such a way that jerks or enemies cannot prevent it. There are plenty of other game objectives to fight your way to.
Personally, I tend to favor changes that allow a player to complete such quests without being subjected to PKing. Notice I didn't say I was 100% in favor of it. I understand that right now clans can use methods of warfare other than just simple battle. But I am personally more in favor of clan competition being decided by leadership, combat ability, tactics, etc. And I am definitely not in favor of players just ganging up on smaller numbers/lower levels to frustrate them just because they can.