Currently as it stands, the p.atk bonus given from the Sword/Blunt mastery is the weakest of ALL weapon masteries, including the weapon masteries given to MAGES, non-melee classes...
Hell, mages weapon mastery gives them p.atk AND m.atk boosts.
A lvl 77 DA with a FB and NO armor or tattoos... just passives and masteries according to his lvl has a patk of 687 and a matk of 238. Using an Arcana Mace he would have a patk of 566 and a matk of 316.
A lvl 77 SH with a FB and NO armor or tattoos... just passives and masteries according to his lvl has a patk of 525 and a matk of 796. Using an Arcana Mace he would have a patk of 436 and a matk of 1023.
Look at daggers... a TH with a FB (s-g 1h sword) will have 76 patk less than a DA with a FB. However, a DA with an Angel Slayer (s-g dagger) will have 113 patk less than a TH with an Angel Slayer. The TH has no sword mastery and the DA has no dagger mastery, yet the TH can get better results with the others weapon than the DA can...
Swords or Blunts SHOULD NOT yield weaker results than a tiny knife or a 80 pound mage who couldnt even carry a sword...
I know NC doesnt give a **** about Tanks or any other Sword/Blunt based classes... so I'll end my rant here.
If you haven't noticed it but, Tanks get more P.def from Heavy armor mastery then the rest of the classes, the other classes get higher damage instead but less P.def
If an archer fully buffed can increase his crit rate by roughly 400% and crit damage by 800%++ - why can a tank not increase their defense by an equivalent amount?
If an archer fully buffed can increase his crit rate by roughly 400% and crit damage by 800%++ - why can a tank not increase their defense by an equivalent amount?
EXACTLY. We have archers/nukers hitting harder than raid bosses.
If an archer fully buffed can increase his crit rate by roughly 400% and crit damage by 800%++ - why can a tank not increase their defense by an equivalent amount?
EXACTLY. We have archers/nukers hitting harder than raid bosses.
And we have ANY other class that makes more adena than a dwarf....so where is the difference?
LOLOLOLOL this has always been my headache with DA's & NcSoft. Please explain to me how a guy in robes can do roughly 4000+ damage to a fully armored and presumably fully Mdef'd DA (who should have his own Mdef skills) but when we hit them with our big freaking sharp steel sword, axe, stick or whatever we do less then a 1/3 damage. How can a guy who is wearing PJ's survive very long with a sword upside his head?
And don't get me started on Archers. The arrow hits the same whether you are standing 2 inches or 200 yards away. No wind factor, no loss of velocity or no accuracy dissipation. Give me a break.
Simply said NcSoft hates melee characters (except for daggers who can hit people through concrete walls)
My DA was retired the day he was killed by a mage 7+ levels lower then him with no effort at all. (And yes I had the squishy house cat out). It was crazy stupid. A fully twlinked DA with full BO Mdef gets easily beat by a mage was in C grade.)
Just another example how NcSoft is really dumb about this game.
i agree Tanks should have a HUGE PDef and a pretty good MDef advantage over other classes in heavy armor... we do get a bonus due to our shield blocking abilitys and better heavy masterys but not enuffs to make a big diff... @ lvl 78 we do get this bonus.... but 1-78 is awful hard when other heavy class glad, BD, destro etc. can take dmg almost as well and do a hell of alot more dmg... the only edge we have pve is hate aura
and in pvp hate aura is deffinatly not gunna keep you alive longer
i dont think tanks should get any sort of dmg boost but i do think we should get a deffensive boost
My healer doesn't do enough damage and my mage doesn't have enough hp/ p def. My BH can't pvp, my OL's nukes/ debuffs cost too much, and my Archer has no m def. NCsoft needs to wake up and start balancing these things out!
Aint gonna to happen. Remember they have a long history of ignoring the NA market.
BTW - What's the point of staying alive longer when you are such a non-factor that you are not targeted till every other DD is dead? Ok so you are alive but since you are so worthless your PvP enemies can safely ignore you till the fight is essentially over…whoopie~!! That is really fun fun fun.
You are a tank you are supposed to TAKE dmg not GIVE dmg.
A TH get's more dagger masteries than you get of sword/blunt masteries.
A SH has MUCH higher INT so it's naturally that they have MORE matk than what you have.
This isnt about stats, its about the quality of masteries.
And the person who said tanks are meant to take damage and not give it... I guess in PvE Im supposed to solo a mob and just stand there til it dies of old age? Lets look at tank soloing... you know how expensive and time consuming that is? Atleast DA's have a panther to help them, although it costs them out the rear.
Increasing sword/blunt mastery isnt going to unbalance anything, **** paranoid nukers, so chill out. It needs an increase big enough to just make tanks a threat to nukers at point blank range, so that nukers can actually take damage from tanks. Because as it stands 1 CP pot = 1 or 2 hits from a tank. A nuker can tank a Tank.
You are a tank you are supposed to TAKE dmg not GIVE dmg.
A TH get's more dagger masteries than you get of sword/blunt masteries.
A SH has MUCH higher INT so it's naturally that they have MORE matk than what you have.
This isnt about stats, its about the quality of masteries.
And the person who said tanks are meant to take damage and not give it... I guess in PvE Im supposed to solo a mob and just stand there til it dies of old age? Lets look at tank soloing... you know how expensive and time consuming that is? Atleast DA's have a panther to help them, although it costs them out the rear.
Increasing sword/blunt mastery isnt going to unbalance anything, **** paranoid nukers, so chill out. It needs an increase big enough to just make tanks a threat to nukers at point blank range, so that nukers can actually take damage from tanks. Because as it stands 1 CP pot = 1 or 2 hits from a tank. A nuker can tank a Tank.
Exactly a nuker can cp pot spam out of a tanks damage, it is like having your buffbot attack somebody; it is pretty pathetic. The thing is though you could send in your buffer to attack a mage and they will "tank" the magic hits just as well as you will, if not better in some cases.
You are a tank you are supposed to TAKE dmg not GIVE dmg.
A TH get's more dagger masteries than you get of sword/blunt masteries.
A SH has MUCH higher INT so it's naturally that they have MORE matk than what you have.
This isnt about stats, its about the quality of masteries.
And the person who said tanks are meant to take damage and not give it... I guess in PvE Im supposed to solo a mob and just stand there til it dies of old age? Lets look at tank soloing... you know how expensive and time consuming that is? Atleast DA's have a panther to help them, although it costs them out the rear.
Increasing sword/blunt mastery isnt going to unbalance anything, **** paranoid nukers, so chill out. It needs an increase big enough to just make tanks a threat to nukers at point blank range, so that nukers can actually take damage from tanks. Because as it stands 1 CP pot = 1 or 2 hits from a tank. A nuker can tank a Tank.
Actually I play a dwarf as main and guess what I do about the same amount of damage as you to and I have much less pdef than what you have.
Every time a dwarf wants more patk and new offensive skills we get "You are not DD's", so why should you get a boost in patk? You are a tank and not DD.
You are a tank you are supposed to TAKE dmg not GIVE dmg.
A TH get's more dagger masteries than you get of sword/blunt masteries.
A SH has MUCH higher INT so it's naturally that they have MORE matk than what you have
(Well DA/TK/SK/Paladin have 2 times more STR from a SH but nothing happens...)
Ok :
SH is DD so he should have +Damage -Survivability
DA/SK/TK/PALADIN are tanks so they have -Damage +Survivability
This way a DD fighting a tank pvp should be Draw or well 50/50 chances for each side to win.
Put a SH/necro/Sorc/Sps VS a tank to see what is the reality.
The stupididy of Development is that DA/Paladin/SK/TK supposed to be tanks/Defenders but defender is someone who resists damage. With a big ( ! ) I realized a looong time ago, that at l2 Tanks are tanks only vs P.atk !
There is no character at l2 that can "Tank a mage" BUT mages can "tank" every DA/Paladin/SK/TK out there, and at the end kill them.
What you people didnt realise is that :
DDs : Damage: ++++++ (6) Survivability: +(1)
DA/Paladin/SK/TK : Damage: + (1) Survivability: +++(3)
(Surv could have been 6 if tanks had "Tank m.def" too )
Thats what Developers realised (after 3 years) and tried to boost Tank's survivability VS magic with shiled block VS magic.
Plus that DDs(Mages and archers) can
hit targets away from them A N D moving targets (get this yourself ill explain it another time maybe)
Tank is not Tank when he lives 5 secs against a mage...
But as it shows we are FAR away from balance...
NCsoft is a company.By makaing ranged damaging characters SO strong eventually the 70% of the l2 comunity have one.
If they make the game balanced(Taking the "walking zombie" or "+1 pvp" label off the melee people)
will make too many people unhappy.This may result a lot of people to stop the game and this is FAR away from what they want...
To resume : Make a ranged char if you want to enjoy the game or Good luck.
Have you seen the triangle? Tanks aren't supposed to beat mages.
You complain allot, but have you thought about dwarfs?
A dwarf can't beat you in PvP.
Do you think I like that the dwarf is beaten by basicly every single class in the game? No...and if we say something we get nothing more than flame back.
So why should it be any different about tanks?
At least you have a chance against archers, but I as a dwarf gets 2-3 shooted by them before I even manage to reach them (they don't even have to kite to avoid me)
You are a tank you are supposed to TAKE dmg not GIVE dmg.
A TH get's more dagger masteries than you get of sword/blunt masteries.
A SH has MUCH higher INT so it's naturally that they have MORE matk than what you have.
This isnt about stats, its about the quality of masteries.
And the person who said tanks are meant to take damage and not give it... I guess in PvE Im supposed to solo a mob and just stand there til it dies of old age? Lets look at tank soloing... you know how expensive and time consuming that is? Atleast DA's have a panther to help them, although it costs them out the rear.
Increasing sword/blunt mastery isnt going to unbalance anything, **** paranoid nukers, so chill out. It needs an increase big enough to just make tanks a threat to nukers at point blank range, so that nukers can actually take damage from tanks. Because as it stands 1 CP pot = 1 or 2 hits from a tank. A nuker can tank a Tank.
Actually I play a dwarf as main and guess what I do about the same amount of damage as you to and I have much less pdef than what you have.
Every time a dwarf wants more patk and new offensive skills we get "You are not DD's", so why should you get a boost in patk? You are a tank and not DD.
Are you arguing against my post? Because if so, that would mean youre not in favor of boosting your dwarf, because dwarves would benefit from a boost in blunt mastery as well. Its just as crap as sword/blunt that tanks get.
While tanks do have more pdef than dwarves, dwarves have considerably more HP via con than tanks do. Even human tanks. But thats not the argument here...
The mastery difference is 52,6 P.atk sick far away from 500 P.def. The p.def difference is 93,6 more for you however, is this balanced? LOL.
You can go as much +STR as any other class.
An archer has 450 more patk than a tank earns in masteries. A tank earns only 50 more pdef than an archer from masteries. From there everything is gear based. I want more pdef ****it.
Have you seen the triangle? Tanks aren't supposed to beat mages.
You complain allot, but have you thought about dwarfs?
A dwarf can't beat you in PvP.
Do you think I like that the dwarf is beaten by basicly every single class in the game? No...and if we say something we get nothing more than flame back.
So why should it be any different about tanks?
At least you have a chance against archers, but I as a dwarf gets 2-3 shooted by them before I even manage to reach them (they don't even have to kite to avoid me)
Tanks do not want to beat mages. They want to protect their allies and tank more than 5 seconds, using their aggression skills, to keep their buddies alive.
LOL...just face it NcSoft hates melee toons. I wish they'd allow me to change my DA to a Hawkeye so at least playing him would be fun again. I pretty much look at the time spent leveling him as a complete waste of time.
Don't look for anything significant in improving the Tank classes. It's just not going to happen.
Well, I'm weighing in late and as a lowbie, but I have less of an issue with the DA's patk.
I think the DA class needs some love PvE so leveling is possible. Archer groups (as an example) sure don't want a Tank leech in their party so we do solo.
I'd like to see (at my level) ACCURACY increased through a self buff. The amount of misses with a Dama with focus make me want to cry. I'll accept that I only hit a 67 archer in majestic for 67 hp's with the sword...if the **** swing would LAND.
(it has NEVER made sense to me that an archer from 'downtown' hits me 90 of 100 times and a nuker from distance hits me 95 of 100 times and I can't hit a stunned mob at 3 feet with a sword that I have MASTERIES for anywhere near 80% of the time!!!!)
Echoing other's comments--pdef (and mdef) should get a boost.
If my DA's "thing" is to take a beating while others survive than stop boosting ranged DD's and nukers and give me some abilities to survive. Again, this comes into play solo, too.
The DA is still a fun class for me as I wrestle with learning it. I never expected to be uber in PvP with this toon (and essentially everyone on Lionna has killed me once or twice). But LONG before you can pvp at 70+ you have to kill a LOT of mobs.
Getting a glass-cannon summon that would bancrupt Donald Trump and a weapon that misses completely 4 of 10 times---combined with only a slightly better than average defense?
Gee, thanks!
Hey, if you won't do anything else? Give me a way to easily keep the kitty healed all by myself!!!!
But even if your p.attack with blunts DOUBLED, people would stil prefer to use edged weapons because blunts have horrible critical rates, and critical blows are the source of the vast majority of damage dealt.
Actually, tanks DO want to beat mages -- and pretty much stand a decent chance against everyone else, too -- but under "reasonably logical" conditions.
I don't believe any tank wants to take on an archer or a nuker at range and hope to survive each and every time. But if you're standing close enough to land a blow on a body wearing light armor or robes, well, that body ought to feel it ...at least much more than a giggle or a wince.
I'm in favor of increasing sword/blunt masteries, but I'd be even more in favor of better active/toggle skills or SA's that would give tanks a fighting chance against any given class or mob. And yes, I'd even share the love with dwarfs, too, to a lesser extent.
Unfortunately, this would probably result in tank specialization and not a true fix... since we all know that the developers rarely provide a widely sweeping panacea to class/pvp woes.
If they increase them, it will be skill wide, so any class with sword/blunt masteries will get the effect. Destroyers with more patk will be alot of fun. Ok, I agree, this should be done.
The sword/blunt mastery learned by warriors is different from the sword/blunt mastery learned by knights.
The warrior's mastery adds 129.3 patk at level 74 like all warrior masteries. This includes the sword/blunt mastery learned by glads and destroyers, dual mastery, blunt mastery, two handed mastery, pole mastery, and fist mastery. This means when using a two handed sword or blunt destroyers get +258.6 patk from masteries.
The sword/blunt mastery the Tanks and SwS get only adds 76.4 patk.
The knight defense masteries should be as absurdly high compared to others as the archer weapon masteries are absurdly high compared to others. Tanks would still be easy kills for 9 man groups that assist, but it would require the entire partie's attention.
would be nice in sieges, if some classes are strong against some classes and weak against others. so that more strategy would be involved. paper scissors rock is still a fun game for a reason. Balance
would be nice in sieges, if some classes are strong against some classes and weak against others. so that more strategy would be involved. paper scissors rock is still a fun game for a reason. Balance
Yeah, sometimes I look up at the stars at night and dream too...
as it stands Damage to Defense is completly unbalanced, if it WAS balanced, people would be playing classes OTHER than nukers and archers. their would be an even population. there is only 2 choices to be made, Increase the amount of PVP skills so that everyone can kill each other depending on situation, skill use, and how you think. OR change existing skills to even the playing field for everyone. i want more pdef to be honest though.. oh sure my archer friend takes 160 a hit and i take 35, but he has twice as much HP as i do and does twice as much damage.. real nice
Choosing a tank with the lowest possible constitution score still confuses me... Anyways, a fully buffed tank vs fully buffed dd's should be able to survive that 900 gap and maybe lose 40% of his hp/cp on the way there. Shields or deflect arrow need a serious boost compared to what they are now for that to happen.
i remember prelude info saying STR related to Con.....but it changed soo quickly. you should accept that you dont need max hp to be a good defensive class luke, tho its useful :o