Overall I think the article has some great points. It expresses some of the issues I've had with L2, and with MMOs in general.
I think he makes it sounds as if the old model is invalid. Which I don't believe is true. But I certainly think in the future, MMO developers need to broaden their scope to include all sorts of MMORPGs, to attract a wider base of players. And that there is room for all of them.
NCSoft has a pretty interesting policy on their online games.
They are developing
1) Casual online games, such as Guild Wars, Dungeon Runners, City of Heroes, etc
2) Hard-core MMORPG, of which Lineage 2 is their only one, but they have AION in development in Korea and there may be another hard core one they are developing.
3) Very casual, friendly games targeted at the new emerging segment of the population that is online - women. From NCSoft's IR report, they think that women gamers will bring quite a lot of money in the very casual online game playing market.
They also put a lifespan on some of their online products. Less hard-core MMOs such as Guild Wars and CoH, they have at being 3-5 years. Hard core ones like Lineage 1 & 2 they put at 5+. The new segment they are going to market towards, is about 1 year lifespan I believe.
"Even more egregious is the use of similar enemies at various stages of advancement. If a player’s character kills a deer easily at Level 4, why, after twenty levels’ worth of advancement, is it terribly difficult to kill a nearly identical deer in another location? This situation makes the game and its advancement system feel absurdly and unnaturally mathematical."
FORGET THAT DEER, I GOT MY *** HANDED TO ME By a 10 Foot tall Antelope! that turned into 10! 10 foot tall antelopes ((******))
I do like how they sorta fixed Ol'Mahum progression. You start off killing the week ones, and then around lvl 50 you find the uber Ol'Mahum that are north of Ivory Tower.
"To make matters worse, the game mechanics do not often require players to adapt in a meaningful way, leading to repetitive encounters where the player performs the same set of actions every time. Since every challenge is overcome in nearly the same fashion as the previous challenge, the one potentially appealing aspect of mathematical combat (figuring out how to make the numbers work to your advantage) provides diminishing returns with each repetition. It is usually a simple matter to perform as well as the game allows, resulting in little variance in how well the user performs from one challenge to another. As a result, the player almost never has the rewarding feeling of turning in a spectacular performance, one of the big draws of many video games. After a while, the user’s mind will turn on the auto-pilot. At that point, the game will seem like work, and the interactivity it provides is pointless—a huge flaw for any video game, especially one that does not provide much in the way of passive entertainment.
Even many of the players who subscribe to PEGs concede that the gameplay itself is not stimulating; it is primarily the potential for advancing their characters that motivates them to continue playing. And since advancement generally serves only to improve a character’s ability to do well in combat, an unsatisfying cycle exists."
I also agree to what he wrote about crafting.
I hate crafting. But you know what? Apparently I love crafting as I found myself in a "Neverwinter Nights" module that allowed you to create and tweak a character's abilities and gear. One of the things I found myself doing for hours on end was creating gear with different parts and colors.
This to me was very telling.
Given that I don't think the L2 developers are "all that" (their art designers are) it is no wonder that they sacked their L3 team.
It's my guess that the L3 team was essentially creating L2 with better graphics and that NC finally realized that that "wouldn't" cut it.
It's my guess that the L3 team was essentially creating L2 with better graphics and that NC finally realized that that "wouldn't" cut it.
I agree. I really doubt we will see any game with such a grind as Lineage 2 ever again in the MMO world. I do hope they keep some of the gameplay designers though, because really, the different types of classes and buffs in this game are extremely original.
everything in L2 has to go really. its all obsolete. the crafting system, inventory, interface, trade, pve, pvp is all a joke in 2007. eg think how long it takes to craft anything, when you prolly had all the mats anyway, and moving items from wh<>inv takes far too long, a right click would do.
Actually, what I think is that Lineage 2 and its like will have a following in the years to come. WoW is seeing a churn rate that will increase as the game ages and people tire of the just another variation.
I think that there does need to be a balance of the play once a week for an hour and have fun, to the grind till you are blind type.
What I find dishearting is the fact that at some point, all my time here is esentally for not as I move to the next game. Lineage 2 could do alot by figuring out how to keep the older players engaugted but still find ways to bring others into our world. There are some things that other games have that we should have in our game but I am sure the cost/benefit analysis makes those types of updates impractical.
I also believe the hardest thing about making a true PvP game is balance. This includes the balance of high levels hunting low levels out of boardum, etc.
I believe Lin1 had a starter island that once you reached a certain level, you were kicked off of the island, no matter what. This was a good idea, why didn't it transfer over?
Another nice thing was Lineage 1's hell. There shoudl be a penality for killing all the time. If you look at Lin1 you can see there are some great developments, their problem is the interface and that for me is why I came over to this game after the years I put in over there. I did want the eye candy. Else, I could have found a completely different company and game.
The biggest thing I do think these game companies need to get a hold on is the farmer / botting issue. I still believe the loss of the Lineage source code for the server and all of the 3rd party apps hindered this game more than anyone can tell. Yes, NcSoft make money, but in the long run, what are we, the community left with? And not making the config file able to deal with the differences in play styles between countires will be more and more important because you need global penetration to make real money any more.
I bet you could pick 10 people off of each server, that have played over a year in Lineage 2, and they would all have nearly the same thing to say, lack of communication between NA audience and NC Korea devs.
<<I agree. I really doubt we will see any game with such a grind as Lineage 2 ever again in the MMO world. I do hope they keep some of the gameplay designers though, because really, the different types of classes and buffs in this game are extremely original. >>
I found a worse one. 240+ levels and the Lineage style grind starts around 70. Plus you have to grind ALL your skills not just levels(buffs, heals, toggles, combat moves, EVERYTHING). Oddly, Im enjoying it a lot. I must be a masochist or somthing.
Gaming in general is a form of recreation much like Television.
To try and group all MMO games under a single umbrella or set of rules is like trying to group all TV shows under that same umbrella. The online gaming industry is in it's infancy, it has hardly scratched the surface of possible markets out there. When you look at a place like Korea, you can actually see the future that may come to pass in other places where gaming is not quite mainstream.
I mean how many of us in the NA market come to work, stand around the watercooler and talk about how many mobs we killed last night, how many PvP's we got, or what raid we accomplished??
When you look at it from that angle, you realize that there are ALOT of different tastes in entertainment out there. I don't know about the rest of you, but I can choose between approximately 500 channels. Eventually the MMO industry will be the same way.
Certainly there is an existing market of gamers, which is pretty small, but imo trying to satisfy them all at once is one of the things that leads so many games to fail.
NCSoft is pretty smart with L2 in that they have chosen a sector of the market, and designed a game to satisfy that niche.
The way the author talks, you would think that the entire market all wants the same exact thing, and this simply is not the case.
There are plenty of people who love the level treadmill, constant raiding, and many of the other things he points out as being "flaws" in existing game design.
It seems simply ridiculous to try and satisfy the long term player crowd (5 yr players) and the short term player crowd (5 months) at the same time. IMO, if a company tries to do that they are setting themselves up for a failure.
I mean cmon, you don't see NBC, CBS, or ABC trying to make a show that is a comedy, romance, drama, and action all rolled up into one. No, they are smart, and they create their shows to go after specific sectors of the entire market place. Just like gaming companies, and especially MMO gaming companies should be doing.
IMO what has caused the success WoW and Blizzard are currently feeling is that they created a market where there was none previously. All of those WoW players did not abandon every other game and rush over to WoW. Many of those players are new players. Blizzard succeeded in expanding the market to people who had never played an MMO before, and they are reaping the rewards.
You want to design a successful MMO? Pick a sector of the marketplace, and then design a game with the intent of capturing that marketplace. Hell, I bet you could make a killing if you designed an MMO based upon setting up your own kitchen and cooking food or even based upon quilting... it would simply be a matter of getting it out to your target audience, and getting them to try it.
<<You want to design a successful MMO? Pick a sector of the marketplace, and then design a game with the intent of capturing that marketplace. Hell, I bet you could make a killing if you designed an MMO based upon setting up your own kitchen and cooking food or even based upon quilting... it would simply be a matter of getting it out to your target audience, and getting them to try it. >>
There will always be a place for the EQ style - level treadmill MMO. Just like there are people who watch nothing but Discovery Channel.
As time passes though, we'll start to see not only different genre's (fantasy, sci-fi, etc) but also different styles. The creative types will have their Second Life, the hardcore grinders will have their L2's, the FPS'ers will have their Planetsides, etc, etc.
That is why I say the author is making presumptions, and injecting his own opinion on what makes a game good into the editorial.
There are plenty of folks, who want nothing more than to log in every day and grind until their eyes bleed. There are also people who enjoy the absolute agony of organising a 200 person raid.
To say those things are bad, is a misnomer. Certainly to some they are bad, but to others, those things are the game.
Lineage 2 doesn't need more PvP. Its too much PvP oriented as it is. What it needs is to breathe life into a world that is static and dull.
They need to introduce PvE enchancements like a Chaos engine and Mob Migration engine that simulates a lving, breathing world with chaotic events going on all the time.
They need to improve on the Castle siege and expand on it to maybe town sieges and etc.
They need to create really new areas in the game that work on different laws and mechanices instead just adding more land to the map with more of the same texturing and [censored] like that. They need environments that are really different like:
a true "dark zone"
a true PvP zone (all free)
a true float/fly zone where players can fly and float at will where everything is 3Dimentional...like you have floating islands or rocks all over the place. If the designers/developers had any imagination at all I don't see why they can't do something like this.
a true dungeon, not the massive ones that they copy and paste every chronicle. I mean a really innovative one FOR THIS GAME, like a forced, first person perspective area that is actually claustrophic and has a REAL dungeon feel.
etc...
QUEST IMPROVEMENTS!!!
What Lineage 2 needs is PvE enhancements. Enhancements that have been lacking since DAY 1.
I guess I would have to disagree on most of your suggestions here. Most of these are impossible to implement. It is sad you don't like the catacomb/necropolis dungeons. I think they are absolutely awesome; they are fun to pvp, pve, do pole parties in, etc. I love swimming down the water to get into it, it's like you are in a whole different reality.
Lineage 2 doesn't need more PvP. Its too much PvP oriented as it is. What it needs is to breathe life into a world that is static and dull.
They need to introduce PvE enchancements like a Chaos engine and Mob Migration engine that simulates a lving, breathing world with chaotic events going on all the time.
They need to improve on the Castle siege and expand on it to maybe town sieges and etc.
They need to create really new areas in the game that work on different laws and mechanices instead just adding more land to the map with more of the same texturing and [censored] like that. They need environments that are really different like:
a true "dark zone"
a true PvP zone (all free)
a true float/fly zone where players can fly and float at will where everything is 3Dimentional...like you have floating islands or rocks all over the place. If the designers/developers had any imagination at all I don't see why they can't do something like this.
a true dungeon, not the massive ones that they copy and paste every chronicle. I mean a really innovative one FOR THIS GAME, like a forced, first person perspective area that is actually claustrophic and has a REAL dungeon feel.
etc...
QUEST IMPROVEMENTS!!!
What Lineage 2 needs is PvE enhancements. Enhancements that have been lacking since DAY 1.
What you want is a different game with a bunch of new features, and that's fine. In fact, it supports my point that as the MMO market place expands, game companies will need to choose their "demographic" and go after it, just like networks do with television.
L2 is a great game for a specific demographic. Of course, it could use some improvements in order to continue keeping that demographic happy. Just like the television shows have to keep things fresh if they want ot keep their viewers.
you know of all MOO i have seen they are all bepanded on level/skill
what if they made a MOO where the player is not the mainline but it's weapon??? like dex,str,con,Wis,int all set on a basic of 20 while you input a other element called weight of a weapon say you got a light weapon it's for a mage while a heavy weapon is for a fighter type.
this brings in a total difrand espect of a game sinds you can put in skills on a mile stone of lets say 0 to 100 sword mastery and like a skill request a player to have 20 sword skills to learn a that current skill but he cant have all sinds he have only 100 points in weapons. so basicly all players are the same expect 1 shooice to be a fighter or wanna become a mage he simple change his mastery
also fighting mobs you can sword mastery but loss a little magic mastery
I mean how many of us in the NA market come to work, stand around the watercooler and talk about how many mobs we killed last night, how many PvP's we got, or what raid we accomplished??
wait...you DONT do this? i thought thats what watercoolers were for >.< ****it.
my original reply to the article was lost due to a posting error followed by a copy/paste error. so you're getting the version that is not 3 hours and 8 pages long.
What facet of the game would cause the whole tower to crumble if removed? The answer is persistent character progression.
this is my pet peeve about so-called RPG titles. a real role player knows that you can crumple up the character sheets, throw the dice into a passing car, and just sit down and PLAY. and it can be a lot more fun than spending half your time looking up (or arguing about) rules.
Even many of the players who subscribe to PEGs concede that the gameplay itself is not stimulating; it is primarily the potential for advancing their characters that motivates them to continue playing.
simply unture, as bighands pointed out, some people find this fun and/or relxing. L2, like WoW, has two seperate portions, one of which is typically referred to as end-game, but its not neccessarily only experienced at the highest levels. L2 has PvP and raids, WoW has raids. the so-called end-game tasks are entertaining when done in short time intervals and caters to a certian type of player, while PvE caters to another. crafting and even chatting can be seen as other end-game tasks. but Sorens vague theories on how to make PvE more exciting are a lot harder to implement than he seems to realize. no matter how it is that you gain xp in his game, it will get boring quick. (i wouldnt mind, however, some mobs that anticipate that you might attack them, rather than just standing around in a field, but then people will complain, like swamp of screams and barney island, that its too dangerous.)
In order to give meaning to this advancement, the challenges the player faces should force the player to view them in a different light as difficulty increases.
brilliant! so, how do you do it? he suggests i kill 5 of the same goblins at once, rather than just one like i was killing before. having played this sort of game (i.e. Fable, "the arena" section of the game, where in i killed the SAME 4 mobs for the first 8 hours, and then, when i got there, i had to kill more of the exact same thing??) is stupidly frustrating. this makes you look like you only had one poorly-paid artist.
Artificial limitations like these make the game environment feel more like a set of arbitrary rules than a real world.
there is a difference between what is realistic and what is believable. it may not be realistic for me to be able to climb walls by sticking to them and rolling around a bit, but it may be believable, if i am a ball of tar. (http://www.garagegames.com/pg/demo.php?id=40)
a massively multiplayer problem-solving game of street fighter, in which each player controls 4 characters, would be interesting, no doubt. especially when you promise to use the ideas of players to "fuel" the games evolution. but it would be gimped in player interaction. and has UI complications that simply make it much too difficult for the average game developer.
Lineage 2 doesn't need more PvP. Its too much PvP oriented as it is. What it needs is to breathe life into a world that is static and dull.
They need to introduce PvE enchancements like a Chaos engine and Mob Migration engine that simulates a lving, breathing world with chaotic events going on all the time.
They need to improve on the Castle siege and expand on it to maybe town sieges and etc.
They need to create really new areas in the game that work on different laws and mechanices instead just adding more land to the map with more of the same texturing and [censored] like that. They need environments that are really different like:
a true "dark zone"
a true PvP zone (all free)
a true float/fly zone where players can fly and float at will where everything is 3Dimentional...like you have floating islands or rocks all over the place. If the designers/developers had any imagination at all I don't see why they can't do something like this.
a true dungeon, not the massive ones that they copy and paste every chronicle. I mean a really innovative one FOR THIS GAME, like a forced, first person perspective area that is actually claustrophic and has a REAL dungeon feel.
etc...
QUEST IMPROVEMENTS!!!
What Lineage 2 needs is PvE enhancements. Enhancements that have been lacking since DAY 1.
What you want is a different game with a bunch of new features, and that's fine. In fact, it supports my point that as the MMO market place expands, game companies will need to choose their "demographic" and go after it, just like networks do with television.
L2 is a great game for a specific demographic. Of course, it could use some improvements in order to continue keeping that demographic happy. Just like the television shows have to keep things fresh if they want ot keep their viewers.
Actually no,
I think the point is that I want Lineage 2 with PvE enhancements. i don't see how you got "you want a different game" from those suggestions.
I don't see why any of those suggestions can't be implemented for Lineage 2.
Look what they did for Lineage 1 in their last expansion. Why can't Lineage 2 have labyrinths that are quest oriented and that shape shift around?
Why can't Lineage 2 have more zones like Sea of Spores? If they can make a zone like THAT, I don't see why they can't make a section of the map totally dark or have a float environment. Hell, they are introducing a flying race aren't they?
There are plenty of people who love the level treadmill, constant raiding, and many of the other things he points out as being "flaws" in existing game design.
I certainly think there are plenty of us who can tolerate it, or find some way to find the fun in it, and certainly those who sincerely like it.
But I think one of the appeals with super grind games. Is that people can gain a massive advantage, not exclusively through actual skill, or wits, or strategy, but by simply being able to dedicate more time to the game. Or of course those that like it because they can cheat there way to the top and have no one who can challenge them except other cheaters. But usually they just all band togeather for a further power trip.
But either way I would agree that there needs to be all types of games. I don't know if grind based games will ever die out, but I certainly don't think they need to. There is room for all types as I said before.
I would agree that we have to be careful about not changing L2 into something it isn't. But I think its ignorant to think that you can't keep L2 true to its demographic, and still make quests fun, or PvE more dynamic, or just design content thats just fun for fun sake.
L2 gave away its biggest advantage when it made it so that white chars cannot drop items, that took all the challenge out of it and its when I became truly bored of it.
However, UO did it even better, you dropped all of your items on the ground when killed by a mob and you had to run back to your body before it turned to bones. Other people could not loot your body until it turned to bones, so basically you had about 3 or 4 minutes to run back to your body, self rez and pick up all your gear before your body turned to bones, all while avoiding the mobs that killed you in the first place while you stand there naked equipping your gear.
That was fun, real fun, not this grind grind grind bs.
My point is that right now, we're playing MMO's the way they watched TV in the 50's - we only have a handful of channels to choose from, and all of the shows are nearly the same.
Of course, this leads to alot of dissatisfaction with the industry.
As time progresses, gaming companies will continue to catch on, and they'll expand the market so that instead of trying to make a game to satisfy everyone, which ends up only partially satisfying most people, they will end up developing games that are designed for a specific demographic and playstyle.
Truth be told - how many MMORPG's are actually built specifically for the RolePlayers. Hardly any.. sure, you can roleplay in all of them, but none are specifically built and then touted as being a game for Roleplaying.
As pointed out, NCSoft is being pretty smart, in that they are starting to do this with their current offerings. You've got L2 for the hardcore competitive grinder, guild wars for the ultra casual, CoV/CoH for the semi casual.
I expect that as time goes by, we'll see more and more of this sort of thing. It's better for all of us players, and it's better for the game companies.
It IS better for us, the consumer. I wouldn't say it is better for the game companies. At some point, at least in the capitolist style markets, we will see the small games shops with good ideas sucked into the mega corps. These will be the only people with enough resources to make the next generation games with film quality realism. The shere cost factor will slowly weed out the basement developers over time.
Not to say we lose at all, just to say it will turn the way of movies and media we have today. Which in turn will become the crap we see on TV today. Reality shows are not real, they are just ultra cheap.
overall i agree that there will be more games and more specialized games in future. there is however a small difference between MMORPGs and TV channels. you cannot switch games as easily as in TV, you get attached far more into one game because of people you play with and the time you invested into it. when you switch channel in TV you miss almost nothing, when you change a MMORPG you loose friends and all the loot and levels. i can easily track a dozen of TV series but i can only play on MMO game at a time, maybe two if i had more time. that's why i think games which are designed to satisfy a wide range of audiences will never die, because you can switch channels while playing one game (ofc only to some extent but still).
Actually the TV thing imo is a perfect comparison. Zhanig - you are semi correct, except for that there are plenty of Indie's out there that make it big. Certainly most don't, but every once in awhile a true gem appears. Many people, myself included, much prefer the Indie over the mainstream. MMO's would be no different. In fact, even though NCSoft is a huge company, L2 compared to WoW here in the US is a somewhat similar comparison.
It's not so much a comparison to switching channels as it is to switching shows. ie - I know plenty of people who never missed an episode of Cheers or Friends.
Agreed - MMO's as we know them today, take a much larger time investment. It remains to be seen if this is required ot make an MMO successful. There are some that are successful that require nothing more than many people invest in a show - ie log in for an hour or two most days, usually around the same time.
imo.. MMO's are the TV of the future - interactive entertainment. Think of them as TV shows or movies where the players get to write the script.
Sorens has some good points. Unfortunately, he seems to lack the gaming history to know that some of these ideas have been tried before, with greater or lesser success.
For example, the first online game, Richard Bartle's "MUD" had tremendous success and it was not a persistent entity game.
One reason is that its approach involved tremendous amounts of player skill, both in PVP and PVE.
PVP involved stalking your prey, eluding pursuit, using objects and the environment, all with real time combat. It mattered who won: the victor got 10% of the loser's points, the loser lost all their points.
PVE was largely based upon exploration and problem solving. To open a door, you had to say the answer to a riddle. Some puzzles required multiple people (e.g. one moves a lever while another steps on a pressure plate)
The point is, that combat was meaningful and quests were more than just **** & slash. Skill and problem solving made a difference.
Other games, like Island of Kesmai and Kingdom of Drakkar also had lots of exploration and discovery, in a P-E-G game format.
In ALL of these games, nobody ever handed you a map. You had to discover the world for yourself!
The big problem with MMOs as I see it, are the players. The devs make a product that is in good working order, that is balanced to the specs they are designing for. Then you let in the players. Players will naturally gravitate to any class that allows you to be "The Best" be it PvE or PvP. The balance the devs worked so hard to make happen disapears as you have a glut of the most popular class(usually a class that requires little thought or effort to play to high levels and in PvP) that defeats, by shear numbers, the class that is meant to counter them.
The MMO is so different from the standard single player game in that there is naturally more control given to the player in an effort to provide interest to the game.
As has been said numerous times, cheating in a single player game only effects one person. You can say it deprives them of the experience of playing the game, but it hardly lessens their enjoyment of it or they would not have cheated in the first place. In an MMO the cheating makes the cheater happy as they gain from it, but others around them are forced to deal with them, either by cheating themselves, or rolling over and playing dead(or grinding till their eyes bleed to keep up). It is a vicious cycle that ruins the experience for many players. The acts of one player can effect the gameplay of dozens.
When you sit down to play a 1 player game, and you dont like somthing about it, you go to a fansite, post your complaint and thats the end of it. In an MMO, where the game is rarely if ever fully finished content wise, it allows players to come to the official sites, post their thoughts, rant and otherwise turn into morons towards the developers. They feel entitled as they are paying a monthly fee(typically) to having their voice heard.
MMOs are(or should be) a living breathing world. There should be a good solid skeleton of the game underneath upon which the world is built, fleshed out and infused with life. This is where, to me, Lineage fails as an MMO. There is not enough interesting content in the game world itself to enjoy. It starts off promising, in the early game there is much to learn and explore, you stand a chance of getting an item drop that might improve your character or that you can sell towards improving your character. That fades very very quickly though and leaves you with nothing but grinding, questing, and attempting to make money. Your chances to improve your character are extremely limited. You can put on tattoos, you get a new grade of armor/weapon to use, and chances at epic jewelery. You can only truly flesh your character out at the very end of the game with skill enchanting. Players of Lineage2 clamor for events to break up the monotony and give you a chance at a serious reward. I never saw this kind of thing happen in the WoW community or most other games as there was plenty of exciting content to work on to begin with.
Lineage is good for what it does as are all games. We all find somthing about this game that entices us and keeps us here. If you infuse whatever that is about every game in to one single game, it will probably still not make everyone happy. There is always somthing new out there to discover and play.
L2 is what it is. There are plenty of people who like it exactly as it is, and would not change a thing. It is built and maintained to go after a very specific niche. Could they do some thing to make the game even more satisfying for that particular niche? yes. Could they do some things to satisfy the existing niche, and possibly expand to attract a couple of other similar one's? definitely.
Actually no. Lineage was never meant to be a "niche" game. It was made for a wide audience but the problem is that it was focussed on the Asian market.
They need to tweak the game on American/Euro shores to appeal to the mass market here.
Well L2 was meant to be hardcore, was meant to be grindy, was meant to be free PvP, etc. But I highly doubt they designed the game to appeal to people who didn't like content, or didn't like having fun (outside of PvP).
You can have a hardcore game, you can have free PvP, and grind, and still have fun stuff to do on the side.
Actually no. Lineage was never meant to be a "niche" game. It was made for a wide audience but the problem is that it was focussed on the Asian market.
Why, then, did even the Koreans flee en masse to WoW when it went live in Korea? L1 *was* the world's leading MMO for many years... but suddenly lost out to WoW and *Maplestory*!
I think the answer is: Even the Asians get tired of grinding.
Well L2 was meant to be hardcore, was meant to be grindy, was meant to be free PvP, etc. But I highly doubt they designed the game to appeal to people who didn't like content, or didn't like having fun (outside of PvP).
You can have a hardcore game, you can have free PvP, and grind, and still have fun stuff to do on the sid
Oddly enough, the Koreans (who virtually dictate how this game will be developed) don't like to PvP outside of seiges and arenas. Go figure!
They need to tweak the game on American/Euro shores to appeal to the mass market here.
Hell, the Devs need to rework the game to appeal to the *Korean* playerbase! (As indicated by them being forced by their main playerbase to add A grade spoils...)
I don't think I'm reaching far when I say that 90% of L2's 'problems' are directly related to the drop/spoil tables. (Including level restrictions on drops and spoils!)
The actual 'level grind' is a frickin marshmallow man compared to the pain of trying to aquire gear or craft/buy it.
NC can kill two birds with one stone (Increase Dwarf 'power' and ease the 'grind'.) just by making crafting gear simple and easy at all levels....none of this key item/rec is drop only at 1/5,000+ from 1-2 mobs crapola we currently deal with.)
Currently buying gear from the shop (Including the lux shop) or through Mammon is *infinately* easier than trying to craft or even aquire the items to craft gear on everything up to A grade...and for A grade you can QUEST things easier than getting them by drop/spoil normally. (In most cases...the 10 Hojillion spoils of Jewelry bits doesn't count...)
Also the level restrictions on drops/spoils make it near impossible for higher level players to 'help' lower level players 'get into' the game as well. (Especially now since the big 'power leveling' loopholes have been filled.) Want some C grade spoils to gear up some new clan members? Sorry, not allowed now that all your spoilers are in A/S grade. (Only C spoils at those levels are Metal Hardners!) And having higher level players help a lower level spoiler is just as bad. That cuts out most all the drops (including adena that player needs!) and many items are drop only!
Actually no. Lineage was never meant to be a "niche" game. It was made for a wide audience but the problem is that it was focussed on the Asian market.
Why, then, did even the Koreans flee en masse to WoW when it went live in Korea? L1 *was* the world's leading MMO for many years... but suddenly lost out to WoW and *Maplestory*!
I think the answer is: Even the Asians get tired of grinding.
Well L2 was meant to be hardcore, was meant to be grindy, was meant to be free PvP, etc. But I highly doubt they designed the game to appeal to people who didn't like content, or didn't like having fun (outside of PvP).
You can have a hardcore game, you can have free PvP, and grind, and still have fun stuff to do on the sid
Oddly enough, the Koreans (who virtually dictate how this game will be developed) don't like to PvP outside of seiges and arenas. Go figure!
Actually Lineage 2 still has greater numbers than WoW in Asia and Korea both. They might have initially flooded to WoW but it was very short lived. Not to mention, how many illegal private servers do you think exist in Asia after they leaked the code?
Most people that are in WoW now are the chinese..probably gold farming...hehe
They need to tweak the game on American/Euro shores to appeal to the mass market here.
Hell, the Devs need to rework the game to appeal to the *Korean* playerbase! (As indicated by them being forced by their main playerbase to add A grade spoils...)
I don't think I'm reaching far when I say that 90% of L2's 'problems' are directly related to the drop/spoil tables. (Including level restrictions on drops and spoils!)
The actual 'level grind' is a frickin marshmallow man compared to the pain of trying to aquire gear or craft/buy it.
NC can kill two birds with one stone (Increase Dwarf 'power' and ease the 'grind'.) just by making crafting gear simple and easy at all levels....none of this key item/rec is drop only at 1/5,000+ from 1-2 mobs crapola we currently deal with.)
Currently buying gear from the shop (Including the lux shop) or through Mammon is *infinately* easier than trying to craft or even aquire the items to craft gear on everything up to A grade...and for A grade you can QUEST things easier than getting them by drop/spoil normally. (In most cases...the 10 Hojillion spoils of Jewelry bits doesn't count...)
Also the level restrictions on drops/spoils make it near impossible for higher level players to 'help' lower level players 'get into' the game as well. (Especially now since the big 'power leveling' loopholes have been filled.) Want some C grade spoils to gear up some new clan members? Sorry, not allowed now that all your spoilers are in A/S grade. (Only C spoils at those levels are Metal Hardners!) And having higher level players help a lower level spoiler is just as bad. That cuts out most all the drops (including adena that player needs!) and many items are drop only!
I agree on this. They do need to ease the Money Grind. Its enough that they have an XP grind in the game. Working hard for levels and gear is overdoing it.
a massively multiplayer problem-solving game of street fighter, in which each player controls 4 characters, would be interesting, no doubt. especially when you promise to use the ideas of players to "fuel" the games evolution. but it would be gimped in player interaction. and has UI complications that simply make it much too difficult for the average game developer.
though i originally laughed at this idea, its really not as far-fetched as i thought. give each character a "main" (use something bipedal and humanish so the character can relate to it, customize it, and preform social interactions) and 3 slots for "forms" that they can change into. some forms are cabable of self-healing, self-rechanging, stunnning, aoe, ranged attacks, whatever makes your jell-o jiggle. in order to access form-speciffic skills of course, you need to switch to that form. forms coul make the player look exactly like a mob, which may make mobs that are social to you not attack you, but if you are attacked by another player the mobs that are social to you may attack them. also players would not neccessarily know (until you changed forms) that you are a player instead of a mob, until you change form, revealing your name. this would make PvP and PvE a lot more exciting i think, by essentially combining the two. dont allow any "weapons" in game (to eliminate the crafting aspect that Sorens mentioned) instead, give players access to new forms only when they complete some sort of quest. naturally some forms will work better against certain types of mobs/playerforms than other forms are. and if players Want to work together, they can, but players dont lose access from their forms when they work together...however, all of these ideas are uncreative fluff that leaves the "core" of the game to still to be developed. and just because it allows you to use a sort of party as a single character, is not really a selling point. so, a couple other ideas i had that might give this game a bit more of an edge... ideas that i plan to use if i am to do anything worth doing. limited skill use. when you learn a skill, it comes with a certain number of charges. when the charges are gone you need to relearn the skill. if you did this correctly it would remove all need for "levels". make player generated maps into items that can be carried by one person. (in one of my game concepts these take the form of polyhedrons with a maze on each side, containing various player-picked-n-placed monsters and traps). if i kill you in pvp, i capture you and put you into my "dungeon". thus, players dont lose xp when they die, they get a sort of time-out minigame that must be solved before they can get back to the larger game and back to gaining SP. add to that a system to costomize and create your own skills, based on combinations of codewords that can be found from clues in books/quests/terrain/etc, and split up servers, rather than accounts/characters, by game worlds that all players can teleport to (using some fundamental knowledge) from one plane of existence to another and nine "souls" per character that are used to calulate stats that the player never sees and...i digress :p
for historical reference. the game that im talking about was called "Sorcerers Ink." (ink = incorporated) and it wont ever be realized because i do not work for a game company, probably never will, and the magic system (the melee sytems was just as complicated) was too complicated for one person to even fully comprehend. i broke it down into 10 "schools" of magic, and each school further into 3 "methods", and still, notes for a single method (i.e. changing forms was just one of them) will cover an entire wall of my apartment. i may just make the ideas public and give them to some game company to shamelessly steal, because ****it, i want to play it. but no company would ever read past the first five pages of even the first of the notebooks. i wish i was born in a time, when people actually enjoyed reading.
- It's an "Open PvP" game
- There is no way to stop high level players from killing low level players (as there was in many of the EQ PvP servers)
-- A player can flag you, but if you flag them they can kill you without penalty
-- If you kill them after they kill you and they don't flag, you go red and can drop gear if you have enough PKs
-- People can quest to work off their PKs and avoid dropping gear
-- People can work off Karma on a low level subclass
-- If you drop gear, you probably just dropped the item you spend weeks farming adena for
-- While farming that Adena you probably sacrificed XP gain
-- You probably sacrificed SP gain too
- Deleveling is a natural part of character progression in Lineage II
- Everything is balanced around Adena
- The In-Game Economy is a joke on every server
- Only Dwarves can craft
- Killing mobs is monotanous cause the only thing to look forward too is useless drops and spell books you most probably don't need
- Dropped items sell for next to nothing to vendors
- There is little gear differentiation between similar level characters
- The game has no notable PvE content
- Farmers rule notable XP zones and NCSoft does nothing about it
- There is no GM presence on the Live Servers (at least not the NA servers)
- etc.
That being said, I think the game is fun. Believe it or not, it's actually funenr onw that I don't have 10-12 hours a day to play it (new job whee). It's hideously monotanous, solo play seems to be the preferred playstyle of most players (or solo with a buffbot army). There aren't many players out there who are willign to generally log in and have a good time. Everything is about #s or $$$... PK count, PvP count, Rep Points (Clans killing other clans academy members while they are XPing in lower level areas, etc.).
They don't really seem to care about the PvE content in the game, and they haven't realized that the grind that they put on this game is so long that they can't keep releasing chronicles that tack on content for high level toons while neglecting low level toons. There really is nothing to work for other than level 76+. I don't even know why the max level has been 80 for so long. That's a blatant balance/design issue that should not have ever happened. Raising the level limit and adding the skills 6+ months later is just sad.
SOE made that mistake with EQ1 expansion Gates of Discord (released an expansion balanced for level 70 toons while 65 was max level) and half the high end guilds jumped to WoW/EQ2/etc. in frustration. I think the thing that keeps many high level L2 players here is the fact that they cannot bear to part with a game they have invested so much time (and maybe cash) into.
hmm bigest mistake in Lineage 2 they have made a PVP game while 90% of the game exist in PVE while the class's are skilled on PVP skills witch makes them to weak to fight PVE mobs they. at high level hance why SS and buffs are requested at high level to kill a x1 mob sinds most people are 4x times to weak SS=50% damage and buff's makes 400%
only thing they can do to fix this is not balanceing the skills but rewrite PVE/PVP skills by add a sub skill system like a box 1 for PVE and 1 for PVP skills
Classes should never have been dependent on SoulShots and [Blessed] SpiritShots to begin with, Lol! They should have had a more complicated melee/spell system with a better designed melee system. The game is imbalanced at every level because of the general ease to illegitimately acquire high end gear and boost up a players defense, and buffs don't stack in a logical fashion.
There really is no easy way to fix the system. Fixing it would require them to rewrite large portions of the game and change the game mechanics dramatically. They'll never really achieve class balance because the basic groundwork that they have laid for them to build it upon is too simplistic. Had they taken it upon themselves to break some things down, they would have had a much easier time keeping the classes balanced.
For example, cast speed should not be a stat. Each spell should have an associated cast speed. Spellsingers could have had fast casting spells and Spellhowlers could have had slow casting spells, with Sorcerors and Necros being in the middle (in that order SPS - SORC - NEC -SH). ATM you can get Dyes and Gear (for example, a Karmian Set and a Homu SA: Acumen) and almost negate the general downsides of playing one class while enjoying the benefits (higher MATK, Overhit Spell, Loads of Utility spells like B2M, CDL, etc.). I have dyes and Acumen SA/Set Bonus and an SPS the same level as myself only had 4 more Casting Speed than me.
Those are simple things that should have been done from the beginnning, but weren't. It would have also allowed them to flag spells for different classes and nerf whichever spell for whichever class that needed to be nerf. Don't want SH playing CC in groups, find Sleep flagged for SH and nerf its casting time to make it longer (should have been longer from the beginning, anyways).
Using SS/SpS is a horrible thing. Once you run out, it's game over. They made changes that should have been put in the general spell system and and required you to use SpS for them. Bad - IMO.
Bighands, it's nice that you think Lineage has its "niche" but regardless of what the targetted audience is, you cannot discount the game's various design flaws based on your "opinion" (haven't seen any links to this in any of your posts). I'm sure we all have at least some fun playing Lineage 2. But the downside of the MMO market is that people will most probably play other games. Lineage 2 has a good thing going for it in that it requires a huge time investment - an investment that most people cannot just dump and move to another game after getting to 6x/7x levels and getting good gear. It really locks you into the game. Had the grind been easier, they would have been forced to insert some notable PvE content, and make their quest system actually fun/rewarding and less bare-bones.
I have dyes and Acumen SA/Set Bonus and an SPS the same level as myself only had 4 more Casting Speed than me.
Erm, something else was going on there then. Its never "that close". You do get closer of course, but not that much.
@ level 40, same equipment your looking at 697 casting speed unbuffed for a SPS and 574 for a SH (+5 Wit on both). A Sorc would have 603.
I dont think you could even get it close to 4 more casting speed in the same equipment, regardless of buffs. Remember as you add buffs, the advantage swings farther and farther toward the SPS. (15% of 1000 is 150, whereas 15% of 750 is 112.5, meaning the next buff will stack even father, and so on and so on)
Overall I really dont agree with anything in your post. Every game has that required "thing".
Here? Its SS/BSPS. Most games? Its Health Pots. (RFO, WoW, etc)
The only thing that was going on was that she either didn't have help to get the tatoo or she just couldn't afford to.
You also missed my point. The point was that I could (because I could afford to get the tats, gear, and SA) obsolete her in an XP group. All the advantages of her class were basically nulled out by my better gear. That is why things like Cast speed as a stat are the wrong way to go. It's too easy for people to beef up that stat and make another class look comparatively useless. Do you invite SPS to a group in this game? I don't. They cast Surrender to Water (nerfs fire nukers), Necros can cast gloom. They run OOM in such a fast time. It's like inviting prophets to be buffers in large parties when a WC can do it much faster.
As far as having a require "thing", you totally miss the point. There is nothing wrong with having something be required.
Having something be required that is depended on one race in the game (Dwarves) and whether or not they are logged in at the moment (/vendor) is too far. Not to mention the cost of them. You ARE using those things on pretty much every nuke when grinding. It makes affording anything in teh game while trying to actually advance your toon's Levels/SP 2x harder.
I have nothing against reagents. Mages and Necros needed reagents to summon their pets in EQ, but it was nothing near the extreme lengths that teh NCSoft developers went with similar things in Lineage 2. D Crys for 700. C Crys for 3k... All these things really should not be depended on the in game market, they are essential building blocks of the class-balance system. Ever wondered why they put in Cursed Bones on a vendor and made a Necro spell to summon them? I guess they sorta learned from their mistake too late.
And in EQ, Heal Potions (and Clarity Potions) are on a vendor, and have a nice recast time on them to stop people from spamming them - there should be the same in L2. Did I mention that people actually group on a regular basis in that game - PvE exists there. Not the psuedo-solo w/ out of balance raid content that L2 has. You can actually hit a named/raid mob with a nuke for full damage and not just 150, that makes you feel good. Raids in L2 make you feel like you wasted 100 hours getting to the next skill level - 7 more dmg a nuke on same raid mob that is now even more levels lower than you that before. Wow.
If they had actually balanced the game correctly and put some brain into the design then alot of the problems would not have gotten this bad. Bot teams wouldn't be killing off full XP areas in record speed (cause the mobs would require a group and more attention), and people wouldn't be able to level to 7x with just some buffbots. Tanks don't really have that much of a purpose in 90% of hte PvE content out side of raids, etc.
I seen a bot team of 7 nukers/2 SEs killing off everything in Ivory tower crater earlier. Maybe NCSoft just wants to provide more jobs for the Koreans (farming adena 24/7, and Power Leveling) cause it looks like what the game was designed for. Can't even petition - it's closed the minute you press the send key, Lol.
P.S. Friend of mine just started playing L2 on a trial account and is already on the verge of quitting, after being griefed to death on Talking Island by about 10 5x-7x players, who were sweeping the island and killing everyone. I even lost 20% experience (delvl ftw) trying to escort him to a "safe" area. So agree or disagree, but this game is generally jacked up in many areas and they seem to not want to do anything about it.
Gonna get him to play EQ tomorrow and see how he likes it. If he likes it o well /byebye L2 for he and I. Getting tired of a game full of anti-social basement outcasts with nothing better to do with their time than use vulgar language and L337 5P34K.
You also missed my point. The point was that I could (because I could afford to get the tats, gear, and SA) obsolete her in an XP group. All the advantages of her class were basically nulled out by my better gear. That is why things like Cast speed as a stat are the wrong way to go. It's too easy for people to beef up that stat and make another class look comparatively useless. Do you invite SPS to a group in this game? I don't. They cast Surrender to Water (nerfs fire nukers), Necros can cast gloom. They run OOM in such a fast time. It's like inviting prophets to be buffers in large parties when a WC can do it much faster.
I didnt miss any point, you tried to pawn it off as having **** near the exact same casting speed as a SPS, and that just isnt so. In fact its not even freaking close.
Do I invite SPS's to party? Hell yes I do, especially if I'm doing certain things they are known for. There isnt anything that matches the pure DPS killing speed of a SPS. (Baring the super Archer groups obviously)
Sure not alot of people AoE anymore, but its still done, and its still a fast way to level and its still the SPS's domain among all the caster classes.
You also mentioned Sorcerers. Now theres a class I wont party. They are perhaps the most nerfed class out of anyone, with **** near no versatility. You'd either take a SPS, Necro or SH over a Sorc anyday. (Sorcerers had their limelight, you missed the boat if you are one now)
Having something be required that is depended on one race in the game (Dwarves) and whether or not they are logged in at the moment (/vendor) is too far. Not to mention the cost of them. You ARE using those things on pretty much every nuke when grinding. It makes affording anything in teh game while trying to actually advance your toon's Levels/SP 2x harder.
Are you really saying (and with a straight face!) that BSPS/SS is HARD to get? I mean, really saying that? At any given time, your dealing with about 4-5 billion SS of any given grade for sale around the gameworld. The only "rare" SS/BSPS would be D grade because the majority arent in that bracket. (And if your that low level you really shoudnt be commenting on game mechanics anyway, level more and figure it out)
As for cost, find 1 shot mobs, go till your hearts content. You will make money over the BSPS cost. You'll make more then anyone solo'ing with the possible (slow) exception of a Healer using a Bow w/ Root (Slow, slow slow exp) or a Dwarf with Spoil.
Did I mention that people actually group on a regular basis in that game - PvE exists there. Not the psuedo-solo w/ out of balance raid content that L2 has. You can actually hit a named/raid mob with a nuke for full damage and not just 150, that makes you feel good. Raids in L2 make you feel like you wasted 100 hours getting to the next skill level - 7 more dmg a nuke on same raid mob that is now even more levels lower than you that before. Wow.
Of course they group up there. Its a PvE game. What ELSE are you going to do? You dont get mad a BoBX because he killed you 5 times.. he cant kill you. You may get mad at BoBX because he called you a sissyboy for playing EQ, but whatever.
As for the whole Raid scaling thing.. its the exact same thing here or there. Here, lets take a example shall we?
We've got a mob with 10,000 HP, and one with 100,000 HP. (Mob A & B for future mention)
I hit mob A for 10 damage. I hit mob B for 100 damage. Did I do the same % of damage to each mob? Why, yes, yes I did!
Do you really need a "big" number to make you feel as if your accomplishing something?
I seen a bot team of 7 nukers/2 SEs killing off everything in Ivory tower crater earlier. Maybe NCSoft just wants to provide more jobs for the Koreans (farming adena 24/7, and Power Leveling) cause it looks like what the game was designed for. Can't even petition - it's closed the minute you press the send key, Lol.
Actually those arent Koreans. They are Chinese, with more then a few living right here in the good ol US of A.
You think Korean's have problems with Bots? Of course not. Your playing a game thats a "hand me down". You knew it when you purchased it (or should have). Your not going to get the same service you would if you were in Korea. Get use to it or bail out, your choice.
Gonna get him to play EQ tomorrow and see how he likes it. If he likes it o well /byebye L2 for he and I. Getting tired of a game full of anti-social basement outcasts with nothing better to do with their time than use vulgar language and L337 5P34K.
If you think L2 is bad, try WoW for a week. L2 is heaven compared to WoW's kiddy moronic scale. Heck, EQ isnt much better considering there are a plethora of ways to grief someone and there isnt jack you can do about it. At least in L2 I can kill you if you annoy me or die trying.
"As for cost, find 1 shot mobs, go till your hearts content. You will make money over the BSPS cost."
Level 44 Necro killign 1 shot mobs will make only enough to cover a the cursed bones. Nevermind the CBSpS which is (on most weapons except 2H Blunt like Crystal Staff) 3x. That's almost 700 Adena a nuke. I have a +4 Homu (SAd, and OEd using my own funds) with a +INT Tatoo and Karmian Set. Every mob where I usually exp is a two shot. The "really good places" are all 3 shot atm and I don't expect that to change as I know other high 40s Necros who EXP at those spots and they are three shots for them (no CDL til 52). You'll never break even as a Necro killing these types of mobs.
What types of prices are you getting for CBSpS? I get 108a/ea. and of course Cursed Bones are 360 cause no one is ever selling them. That is:
(108 * 3) + 360 = 684 adena per nuke
Most mobs will only drop about that much adena on a kill, and are 2 shots. How much Adena do you think ur losing when u 3 shot a mob and it only drops 1200 adena (684*3=2052 per kill)
Things get easier in B Grade when u can continue to use your C grade weapon until A grade in most cases (esp nukers) and the higher level mobs start compensating for the cash drain, but in C grade it is hardly that.
Sorceror in clan XP'd there til 50 and he still had to three shot them. SPS I wouldn't even bother XP'ing in these places, they'd go OOM too fast. This is with all the applicable Tattoos. If you buff up you can prolly get them to two shots, but it would be close. I'm sure there are other places, but I generally find 1 shot mobs to drop adena amounts that are not proportional to what I am using when I nuke them. This was the case as a Mystic, Wizard, and now a Necromancer.
"If you think L2 is bad, try WoW for a week. L2 is heaven compared to WoW's kiddy moronic scale. Heck, EQ isnt much better considering there are a plethora of ways to grief someone and there isnt jack you can do about it. At least in L2 I can kill you if you annoy me or die trying."
You are wrong about EQ :) You don't need to do much other than /petition them. They have active GMs and they are very quick to response. People griefing guild raids... You usually get a response within 3 minutes or so. There are GMs walking around invisible all the time. There was a time when someone trained my alt and I petitioned them then logged in my main to train them, and got a warning because the GM was following me invisible and seen me train him.
Fighting over a camp. I've seen GMs tell people to PvP for the spot, and if neither wanted to compromize they would make them both leave (or be suspended). That game is managed alot better. The only server where there was griefing was the "no rules PvP" server Sullon Zek, which was like Lineage 2 and closed down cause it sucked for many of the same reasons. People by newbie towns killing newbies, people training/griefing people, etc. The other PvP servers were well thought-out and structure in a balanced way. You could not attack a player that is too far under or over your level, couldn't fear players, or charm them, etc.
But I have to disagree with your assumption that there are a plethora of ways to griefs someone and there isn't jack u could do about it, cause SOE has active GMs that WILL/ALWAYS take action when the Play Nice Policy is violated. And of course, if you get killed in Arena or some other PvP zone then there is nothing you can do but whine and get over it.
Have fun killing someone and turning red and having everyone else hunt you down for gear drops. N/M... You can circumvent the Karma system by doing quests to lower PK count or working it off on your subclass anyways.
Level 44 Necro killign 1 shot mobs will make only enough to cover a the cursed bones. Nevermind the CBSpS which is (on most weapons except 2H Blunt like Crystal Staff) 3x. That's almost 700 Adena a nuke. I have a +4 Homu (SAd, and OEd using my own funds) with a +INT Tatoo and Karmian Set.
Take a look at what your wearing equipment wise and tell me what you could have better.
Your running with 440 M.atk (with +4 int, and the equipment above). Thats pretty **** laughable and no wonder you cant one shot anything. Why woudnt you set it up so your running with 666 M.atk (same +4 int, other equipment I'll let you guess since your so smart)?
Lets add Empower to that... 778 to 955. (Of course, if your running around unbuffed thinking your going to own, no wonder you cant make money.. buffs are free, use them.)
The "really good places" are all 3 shot atm and I don't expect that to change as I know other high 40s Necros who EXP at those spots and they are three shots for them (no CDL til 52). You'll never break even as a Necro killing these types of mobs.
For a "non gimp" Necro, the really good places arent 3 shot, they are 1 shot. Its not my fault, or anyone elses fault if your running around trying to be a wanna-be SPS when you should be maximizing damage and using buffs for god's sake... its your own **** fault.
Things get easier in B Grade when u can continue to use your C grade weapon until A grade in most cases (esp nukers) and the higher level mobs start compensating for the cash drain, but in C grade it is hardly that.
I'm assuming your being completely sarcastic about using a Homukulus until A grade. Sure, if its +'ed out the rear, and most do that.. however, they wont keep a little +4 Homukulus. You'd need a +8/+9 to even match top B.
Remember, your not a freaking spellsinger. You want to save money? Maximize M.atk to deliver the best killing power.
But I have to disagree with your assumption that there are a plethora of ways to griefs someone and there isn't jack u could do about it, cause SOE has active GMs that WILL/ALWAYS take action when the Play Nice Policy is violated. And of course, if you get killed in Arena or some other PvP zone then there is nothing you can do but whine and get over it.
When was the last time you played EQ? Your whole little paragraph above sounds like early/year or two into when it was released.
It sure as [censored] isnt that way now. I've waited over a hour on petitions and gotten little to no help when being griefed.. so I griefed em back <shrug>. Nothing ever happened, and I doubt anything ever will.
Have fun killing someone and turning red and having everyone else hunt you down for gear drops. N/M... You can circumvent the Karma system by doing quests to lower PK count or working it off on your subclass anyways.
Bye?
I've got no problem being Red. You shoudnt either. At your levels, washing karma with a friend will only lose you maybe 15 minutes worth of exp'ing. Big deal. Its a tad bit diffrent when your 70+ and you lose days worth of exp if you wash it without a BREZ. (Have you even seen a BREZ? heh)
Bye to you too! I mean really, dont comment on the game when your level 44. Your knowledge is lacking.
Lol... Why are you getting so **** defensive and using vulgar language in your post? Kinda epitomizes the general in-game atmosphere as far as players go. I go for cast speed because:
1. Bartz is laggy ATM and there have been way too many times that I nuke one mob and 2-4 other mobs suddenly spawn and assits it. Cast speed > damage in these cases.
2. Damage won't help you when ur wearing a robe set with -260ish HP on it and archer/nuker mobs are hitting you from range and critting.
3. I have not seen any mobs that I can efficiently XP on that are 1 hit mobs at my level. Please show me them, cause I have asked in this board and am at the places where they have told me to go. Are you saying this entire msg board is ignorant? Maybe you just think that people just pop up with high OE'd weapons and gear the minute they level? I worked for everything, I'm sorry you choose to ebay (no other reason to actually have such a mindset).
4. This IS a PvP game, and certain defensive/offensive spells are SLOW. Anchor, anyone? Sorry, but I don't want to have to wish my spell gets off when someone ganks me in a tight area, the best chance to ensure you get your spells through is to maximize your cast speed, cause that MAtk increase means about squat when someone is properly buffed and out to gank/PvP.
5. When a mob spawns on top of my head unexpectedly and starts hitting/nuking me, I want the highest chance to kill it before I kill it. For that, I need cast speed (not damage, since I'll still have to cast 2-3 times).
That being said, I have +INT, +WIT, and +CON tattos. I have a Karmian Set (+15% Cast Speed) and an SA'd Hom OE's to +4 (15% cast speed). Buffs aren't free unless you're willing to box a buffer. They are free to find, but finding them takes time. I don't have time looking for a buffer in a game where I can kill efficiently enough without them. Buffs won't make me make more adena while grinding, they don't augment mob adena drops. I don't see your point... Do you even have one?
Who said I was going to keep a +4 Homu until A grade? I said most nukers keep a C grade weapon until A grade. I OE'd my HOmu to +4 myself, I'm sure I will get it higher sooner or later. There is no sarcasm to be spoken, ur just twisting the words and putting them in my mouth - sorry. My POINT was that at B Grade they can earn adena faster because they will still be using the cheaper C Grade BSpS vice the B Grade BSpS. The mobs will be higher level and thus drop more adena. Get how that goes... Low cost, more adena drop = earn/save more adena. This is especially true for an expensive class like the Necro because the price of Cursed Bones stays constant (and later they are able to actually summon them).
The last time I played EQ was about 8 hours ago... And I've been playing it since 2001. I've played: Necro, Magician, Wizard, Enchanter - all to max level (per the expansions) and many AAs. My current main is a Necro and the alt that I box is a Magician - both max level with raid gear and near maxxed AAs.
What server do you play on, and what is the magelo profile of your Deathknell or higher geared character on the EQ servers (feel free to PM). The EQ staff is about 1000% better than NCSoft's GM staff (if they have one). I have never seen a GM, and only heard of one being on the Test Server. The one time I tried to send a petition, it was automatically closed the minute I sent it. Maybe your petition was stupid, and not worth their time? But being a high level L2 player, I don't expect you to have played EQ much, considering...
Yes, I have seen a BREZ. Does your having seen a BREZ and some other lower players not seeing one make you feel special? Sure make it sound that way. Poor baby :(
"Bye to you too! I mean really, dont comment on the game when your level 44. Your knowledge is lacking."
I hope you really don't believe that, do you? General game design has nothing to do with what level you are, or having played it. Any game designer would look at Lineage two and frown at the design decisions made by the developers.
Being an Archer, I'm sure you don't mind being red. I wouldn't mind being red if I was a 7x Necromancer either. I'm sure the 7x SPS would mind if it went red and seen a 7x archer coming their way. You also don't mind because there is little penalty for being red at high levels with all the easy ways to wipe Karma and lower PK count. Gotcha... That is a design flaw, btw (though you will deny it). I wouldn't mind being red if being red means the only way to work the karma off would be to kill mobs (and not on subclass) and there was no way for a player to clear his PK count. As long as those loopholes exist - I very much mind being red. Sorry you disagree.
You seem to have an anti-low-level-player type attitude. Sorry you have that elitist mentality, it's kinda sad you think that you have to be in a top clan or at top level to know game mechanics. Lineage II's game mechanics are so simple that you really only have to see someone play it to understand it. If you knew how game mechanics work, you would see the general problems with the Melee/Spell system and realize that Lineage II's system is a rather hacked approach that many/most/all other games have avoided like the plague for the same reasons that they've been putting in overpowered buffs and reagents (BSpS) since its release...
I have a 70x archer and 70x nuker sub, and my nuker has made millions of adena so I could fund both, my main and sub, just by hunting. My archer always needed cash for ss and was [censored] poor but all changed when I subbed nuker. Truth is at low lvl 40's you don't make any money and second playing a nuker without a se buffbot or se friend is just plain dumb. Sry but thats how it is unfortunatly in l2. No wonder you need 3 shots to kill 1 mob. 3 shots at lower lvl for 1 mob = hunting unsuffeciant.
Another thing, most ppl in my clan (if possible) will work off karma by switching to their second sub which they keep low lvl (around lvl 41 :p ). Working of karma at lvl 40 as a nuker = so easy.
And going red at lvl 40 is even more fun, I went red all the time when I was around lvl 40- 50 just to have more mobs lol. Didn't care if they came back and I would loose the fight. I would just go in and kill them again. Exploss under lvl 75 is so easy to get back.
And the biggest mistake you made was making a necro. Necro is yes partly a nuker but special nuker and is one of the most expensive classes ( bsps+cursedbones) to lvl at low 40-50 ish. But if you have such great knowledge about the game you should have known that...
1. Bartz is laggy ATM and there have been way too many times that I nuke one mob and 2-4 other mobs suddenly spawn and assits it. Cast speed > damage in these cases.
They are all more laggy (The US servers) because of Interlude on the Test server/ preperation for it being on Live. It happens every single Chronicle, and will continue to happen. Hell it happens in every game where a major update comes out. (BC crashed WoW servers left and right)
2. Damage won't help you when ur wearing a robe set with -260ish HP on it and archer/nuker mobs are hitting you from range and critting.
Hint: Dont hunt Archer/Nuker mobs. Actually, Nuker mobs arent really bad because most cast so **** slow you can get off two nukes even with a Acumen weapon.
3. I have not seen any mobs that I can efficiently XP on that are 1 hit mobs at my level. Please show me them, cause I have asked in this board and am at the places where they have told me to go. Are you saying this entire msg board is ignorant? Maybe you just think that people just pop up with high OE'd weapons and gear the minute they level? I worked for everything, I'm sorry you choose to ebay (no other reason to actually have such a mindset).
Feel free to PM me in game (Since I'm on your server) and I'll show you a few area's where you can effectively one shot mobs that are green. They have to be green because of your equipment. If you had the proper equipment, they could be white. If you had a SE, they could be high white/low yellow.
As for the Ebay comment.. brilliant. You picked the most expensive class to level behind a Summoner. Not me. However, even having said that, you should still make money easily.. especially if you did all the quests you were spose to on your way up. (100 Badges for the Lion Badge + Sofia in Dion with manoring should net you about 10-15 million by 40 FYI.. selling the mats on the market, not to the shop and using the lion's eyes/cargo boxes.)
4. This IS a PvP game, and certain defensive/offensive spells are SLOW. Anchor, anyone? Sorry, but I don't want to have to wish my spell gets off when someone ganks me in a tight area, the best chance to ensure you get your spells through is to maximize your cast speed, cause that MAtk increase means about squat when someone is properly buffed and out to gank/PvP.
When your that low, your sole objective is to LEVEL. Because you can bet your *** everyone is ahead of you virtually. Once your into A grade, then start gearing yourself for PvP because then you might stand a chance. Say you kill that Griefer, hes just going to hop onto a main thats 70+ and your waxed.
If you were on Franz or Teon the problem woudnt be as bad, but your on Bartz.. where 70's are a dime a dozen. Change your mindset from a fresh server to the oldest server in existance with the highest average level.
5. When a mob spawns on top of my head unexpectedly and starts hitting/nuking me, I want the highest chance to kill it before I kill it. For that, I need cast speed (not damage, since I'll still have to cast 2-3 times).
You have Vamp Claw. Use it. Even with Demon, theres no way in hell a mob is going to kill a Necro if it pops on top of you and stuns you to boot. I mean, seriously come on.
Buffs won't make me make more adena while grinding, they don't augment mob adena drops. I don't see your point... Do you even have one?
Read what you just wrote and think about it for a bit... then read below.
If you get buffed with Empower, and a mob goes from a 3 shot to a 2 shot or a 2 shot to a 1 shot, you are indeed making more money per kill. Why? Because your spending less, duh.
The same can be said for speed type buffs. If Acumen + BS increase your kill speed from 2 mobs a minute, to 3 mobs a minute, you will net more adena in the time you play then if you hadnt had them. Duh again.
My POINT was that at B Grade they can earn adena faster because they will still be using the cheaper C Grade BSpS vice the B Grade BSpS. The mobs will be higher level and thus drop more adena. Get how that goes... Low cost, more adena drop = earn/save more adena.
Again you fail to realize two things.
#1 - How much can you carry? BSPS isnt light, and as a Nuker you want to stay out there as long as humanly possible without coming in. CBSPS is X3, BSPS is X1. Thats alot of extra BSPS there.
#2 - BSPS is actually cheaper then CBSPS (Yeah on Bartz). 108X3 = 324A per shot. BSPS is currently around 305... correct me if I'm wrong, but isnt that cheaper? :)
You seem to have an anti-low-level-player type attitude. Sorry you have that elitist mentality, it's kinda sad you think that you have to be in a top clan or at top level to know game mechanics. Lineage II's game mechanics are so simple that you really only have to see someone play it to understand it. If you knew how game mechanics work, you would see the general problems with the Melee/Spell system and realize that Lineage II's system is a rather hacked approach that many/most/all other games have avoided like the plague for the same reasons that they've been putting in overpowered buffs and reagents (BSpS) since its release...
I have a anti low level player know it all negative attitude you **** straight.
People who have played this game for years know light years more about it then you do, period. I woudnt go into a game I didnt know and spout off to people who've been playing for years. I'd sit down, shut up and learn.
Take the advice or dont, sounds like your already quiting anyway.
"Another thing, most ppl in my clan (if possible) will work off karma by switching to their second sub which they keep low lvl (around lvl 41 ). Working of karma at lvl 40 as a nuker = so easy."
And that should be nerfed, respectively.
"Truth is at low lvl 40's you don't make any money and second playing a nuker without a se buffbot or se friend is just plain dumb."
And you don't see this as a problem?
"And the biggest mistake you made was making a necro. Necro is yes partly a nuker but special nuker and is one of the most expensive classes ( bsps+cursedbones) to lvl at low 40-50 ish. But if you have such great knowledge about the game you should have known that... "
If I was so disheartened with my class choice I would have since rerolled. I'm very happy with my class choice. Just because you disagree with my playstyle (gear choice, etc.) does not mean that it is wrong. It works for me, and I do not have to time to wait for buffers to port across the world (nor do I have the cash to pay for them to port across the world to buff me) before I go XP. Seriously, grinding is easy. I can kill easy mobs, I can kill low-XP 1 shot mobs and get XP just fine. I tend to rate my grinding time by XP/hr and to maximize my XP/hr I have to kill higher level mobs than those and if that means spending more then I guess I have to spend more. I also like to play with a little risk (mobs in Outlaw forest can 1 shot me with a critical nuke, so it actually takes skill and not just button presses to go through a few hours there grinding).
The thing I do find disheartening is the attitude that many/most of the high level players have in the game in regards to lower level players. As if they are the only players that know about game mechanics. Lineage 2 isn't the only or best MMO out there. I'd go out on a limb and say that a hardcore Lineage 2 players knows less about MMO game mechanics than a hardcore EQ/EQ2/DAoC player because the game is so behind the times in regards to that. This attitude is prevalent on message boards as well as in game.
Some 76s were camping the gates at Talking Island about 30 minutes ago and killed my friend who just started playing. After killing him, they yelled "LAWL. Noob go level!" Wonder what their I.Q.s were, cause that's obviously what he was trying to do...
Someone earlier in the thread said that people will go as far as they can in these game, and that's true. In Beta, they should have forseen problems with the general design/mechanics of the game and accomidated for them. Now it's Interlude and they are just getting around to protecting < 40 players from PKers many levels above them.
When will they start disallowing deleveled toon from using high level passive/active skills... 2014? Sorry I offended you, I don't mean to bash L2 as I think it is a good game PvE-wise when you have some friends to play with. It bashes itself enough that no one really needs to help it on the class balance/content balancing/skill and spell design issues.
Hopefully they learn from this and Lineage 3 comes out as an awesome MMO. In the meantime, I will be grinding...
IRT going red at 40... I've seen people die and drop darn near half the items on their person (Weapon, boots, pants, and a bunch of inventory items). Too bad he was too *low level* to have a subclass to work off his karma, eh.