Every nuker get the same tats so its pretty easy.
+4 INT -4 MEN simply to do higher damage and land your curses more, andyou dont loose alot from nerfing your MEN either.
+ WIT -4 MEN Higher casting speed. It also let you use Body to mind faster which is better to use for more mp then having good men.
+4 CON -5 STR More hp,cp,hp regen, cp regen and stun resist. Its good for pvp and more hp makes CDL do more damage.
Every nuker get the same tats so its pretty easy.
+4 INT -4 MEN simply to do higher damage and land your curses more, andyou dont loose alot from nerfing your MEN either.
+ WIT -4 MEN Higher casting speed. It also let you use Body to mind faster which is better to use for more mp then having good men.
+4 CON -5 STR More hp,cp,hp regen, cp regen and stun resist. Its good for pvp and more hp makes CDL do more damage.
fully agree
the +wit and int are no brainers but the third tat could go a few ways
you could get another +1 wit or int for faster cast or more damage
+dex for run speed evasion and shield block
or +con for more hp carry weight and stun resist
the second you play a class with cdl you basically have to choose +con
curse death link learned at 52
basically the lower your hp the more damage you do
thing with cdl is though that the damage done is based on what % hp you have and not a fixed number
heres some made up stuff for ya
if you have +con and bless the body you might have 3k hp
when you get down to 500 hp you would do 4k damage
if you have -con and no bless body you might have 2k hp
when you get down to 500 hp you would do 2k damage
completely made up numbers but the logic is still there for why smart cdl'ers prefer +con
Unless you are rich I recommend using Grocery Store Trader tatoos (+4/-5 INT/MEN WIT/MEN CON/STR).
CON is better than anything for third tat because you will most probably be using a Demon set for C Grade (-269 HP) and at B Grade you will lvl with CDL alot - which is HP dependent.
Rich?
For 10 +4-4 tats at Merchant of Mammon it is 1.7mil ancient adena... figure 5.1mil normal adena or so at 3:1 prices or 3.4 mil at 2:1 prices. Perhaps if your negotiation skills are horrid you pay 4:1 for ancient adena resulting in 6.8mil per tat....
OR you could just grind in cats/necros for seal stones yourself... (which behooves you if ancient is selling for 4:1!)
I completely agree with the +4con -5 str or +4dex -5str tat being bought at the store...
But its worth paying the 10mil or so for the good int and wit tats to keep the 2MEN... the mana and mana regen are so low as to not really count, but the mdef loss hurts (Mdef is a powerful stat)
10mil is not a lot of money for an end-game item you will wear all the way to level 80.
Frankly, if you spend some time in the cats/necros it won't even be that much... I had more than enough for one of the better tats just from levelling from 20-40 in ancient adena...
I don't think I have ever gotten to 48 or higher without making 3.4mil+ in ancient adena...
Last I checked on lionna AA was going at a 5:1 or 6:1 ratio. So it would be better to do it yourself there. But it is rather inexpensive considering how much it is used and how long you wear it(if you are happy with it)
If I were on lionna, I'd never leave the cats/necropoli then...
At 6:1 I'd find myself an SE and a polearm and smack wads of mobs... You and that SE would be rich in a hurry.
It's awesome that your clan grinds in Ancient Adena, but I and many others don't. We grind alone, in outdoor areas. When I do grind in a catacomb, I sell my AA for 2 Adena Each, so I don't take the price difference in. What I'm taking in to account is the fact that the +/-4 Tats cost about 9-10x as much as the Grocery Store Trader tatoos (450k'ish vice 4mil or so). That's a huge price difference. For the difference in price for those 3 tats, I can buy a full Zubei or Avadon Robe set (~14.5mil for top, bottom, glove, boot, and helm - all +3 - on Bartz).
I think upgrading my gear to B grade from C Grade is more important than some MDef that doesn't really mean much cause getting buffs is so easy. That's just my opinion, however.
I used go +5 wit and +4 int... but man... carrying cursed bones sucks on top of everything else. I changed +1 wit to +4 con just so I can carry more bsps. The hp/cp thing was a nice bonus though. Expecially if you have those clan passives and if you expect regular Bless the Body buffs. In the end... it's up to your play style, but after 61.... +1 wit isn't really worth it. Increase in cast speed is always good... but not at the cost of 4 con.
imo (based on but a handful of tests) CDL + Karmian = safer
With acumen 3 pots? Not at all. Just make sure you have Greater heal pots and be LIBERAL in their use. If you have the slightest hint of danger, pound one. Carry cursed bones to use deathspike when needed as well. CDL is a fairly safe method of exp if done properly.
1. Find an area with little or no aggro. Non-social is even better. This factor is probably more important than getting an extra 5% exp per kill even.
2. Don't just hit CDL. Sometimes spells fail on mobs, so have a backup plan. Target, activate your CDL nuke, then hit deathspike. If the mob dies in one hit (which is a good goal for CDLing at low levels) then you're all set. If the spell fails, it generally does around half damage and your deathspike will already be casting to kill the mob even before you would have reacted to attack yourself. If the mob dies, you will simply get an invalid target response and continue hunting.
3. Don't loot. If you can find a relatively empty area, don't run around picking up loot a lot. Plan your fighting well and stay at maximum range from mobs. If you see MP pots, go for those, but wait to loot. Preferably every other buff round works well, but it's always risky to leave stuff on the ground that others can pick up. Keep your eyes open for anything worth a lot of money and take the time to pick it up.
4. Buffs or a buffer with SE can make this whole process even easier. The SE can spam heals if he ever feels you are at risk.
I think upgrading my gear to B grade from C Grade is more important than some MDef that doesn't really mean much cause getting buffs is so easy. That's just my opinion, however.
Demon robes are hardly needed at low levels (40-60) for doing decent damage. Best armor in my experience, in that level range is karmian/avadon robes, by far!
You think it's hard doing CDL open field against ranodm aggro mobs?
OK
Try doing it in a full room catacomb fast respawn duo CDL action. ([censored] FUUUUUUUUUUN!!!)
When spells would actually fail. AFAIK they don't fail as long as they're within your level range anymore, since C5. Pffffffffffffft, PvE is too easy atm. I wish new people could feel the pain of leveling 39-40, or 54-55 in Prelude/C1 like the old school did.. :/
The ONLY reason to wear demon robes over karmian/avadon is if you need 30-80 more damage to 2-shot a mob instead of 3-shot to save mp.
Demon robes are hardly needed at low levels (40-60) for doing decent damage. Best armor in my experience, in that level range is karmian/avadon robes, by far!
You think it's hard doing CDL open field against ranodm aggro mobs?
OK
Try doing it in a full room catacomb fast respawn duo CDL action. ([censored] FUUUUUUUUUUN!!!)
When spells would actually fail. AFAIK they don't fail as long as they're within your level range anymore, since C5. Pffffffffffffft, PvE is too easy atm. I wish new people could feel the pain of leveling 39-40, or 54-55 in Prelude/C1 like the old school did.. :/
The ONLY reason to wear demon robes over karmian/avadon is if you need 30-80 more damage to 2-shot a mob instead of 3-shot to save mp.
First of all you don't know what anyone is killing, not everyone goes to the most populated areas on the server to be PKd by highly-geared subs because they want all the mobs in that spot (they usually have 7x clannies nearby waiting for you to flag/attack). But disregarding that, you take a huge hit to MATK when using Karmian set. I had a Karmian set until just recently and I would never be able to XP in the areas that I now XP in with it. I would still be level 46 because I'd still be in Ivory Tower Crator killing Low XP mobs.
Upgrading to Demon Set allowed me to move out of Ivory Tower Crator (2.7-3.6k XP Mobs) to Outlaw Forest (4.2-8.8k XP Mobs) and level at an insane rate (since I found an area that no one, not even the bots, goes to). 45-48 in 1.5 days of grinding (about 9 hours total) two shotting these yellow - dark red mobs (4 shot high XP mobs for 8803 XP which is > than two two shot mobs, so worth it).
With Karmian Set, I would probably fail 30% of my casts (and 50% of all Blaze casts), cause I tried with that set) and would be forced to XP on mobs that give 500-1000 less XP per kill for the same amount of shots. That's disregarding the fact that the Adena drops in this area are pretty much double that of Ivory Tower Crater.
What's so newb about that? My Experience > Your Opinion on that matter. The extra M.Atk is much > The extra cast speed from Karmian, especially when you consider you have to hunt "gimper" mobs with Karmian set due to lower DPS output. With Empower, we're taling over 200 M.Atk Difference between the two (~800 M.Atk with Karmian, and +1k with Demon). Remember that Demon set adds 15% M.ATK while also increasing your INT by 4 (equivalent to a Tat, and yet more M.ATK). That's a huge boost at these still "lowish" levels.
Also, I never stated that I would use Demon set to CDL. I said I went for +Con to offset the HP decreased by Demon set, and that when you get to B Grade it will help your CDL DMG output. Maybe that was misunderstood, since I didn't properly punctuate that statement and it all seems like one drawn out poorly thought-out statement. You can get a Zubei set if you want MAtk increase in B Grade (have in Warehouse) and Avadon for Cast Speed (Have in Warehouse). I will have enough cash to buy a +7 [or higher] Homu or Sword of Valhalla by the time I hit B Grade, since my Adena gaining has gone through the room lately due to my switching sets.
P.S. Apologies to all I argued with about that issue :) Thanks for the infoz too!
With Karmian Set, I would probably fail 30% of my casts (and 50% of all Blaze casts), cause I tried with that set) and would be forced to XP on mobs that give 500-1000 less XP per kill for the same amount of shots. That's disregarding the fact that the Adena drops in this area are pretty much double that of Ivory Tower Crater.
Hail to your flawless arguement.. "probably".. no you won't fail blaze against those mobs.
Newb.
Who cares about adena drops anyways.. try to read my post.. please.
Let me clarify.. if yous try to fight mobs 20 levels above your skill level, of course you would fail couple spells. From what you write, I almost assume you try to level a necro or a summoner (talking about blaze).
I leveled my Necro alt from 46 to 52 in Valley of saints with PP and SE buffs, with no major problems, beat that xp, I dare you. 9 hours for 3 levels, isn't very fast at that level. Of course that was with outside help, so if you did it in 9 hours with NO outside help, it's a feat. So kudos if you did that you overpowered sob :p
With Karmian Set, I would probably fail 30% of my casts (and 50% of all Blaze casts), cause I tried with that set) and would be forced to XP on mobs that give 500-1000 less XP per kill for the same amount of shots. That's disregarding the fact that the Adena drops in this area are pretty much double that of Ivory Tower Crater.
Hail to your flawless arguement.. "probably".. no you won't fail blaze against those mobs.
Newb.
Who cares about adena drops anyways.. try to read my post.. please.
My Experience > Your Opinion
Even with Demon Robe Set and Greater Empower 3 Blaze fails on those mobs 10% of the time. I'm sorry you can't get it that I was actually grinding there from 44 to 48, and have fresh (as of last night) experiences to reflect upon.
newb...
I went there with the Karmian Set and failed at least 45% of my Blaze casts there, adn about 5% of Death Spike at level 44. The mobs are all Pink - Dark Red. Returned at level 45 With a Demon Set and Blaze bounces ~25-30% and Death Spike never fails. Mobs stil "con" the same. The only logical reason for this I could think of is the fact that the Demon Set, with Empower buff, gives you more than 200 M.Atk more than you get with a Karmian set.
Also, you will not be able to 2 shot these mobs with a Karmian Set. They will be 3.5 shots (considering failures) on average.
It's not a flawed argument, or an argument at all. It's a tried and true "experiment", a < 1 week old experiment at that (maybe 2.5 days since I went from 44 to 45?). I don't see how you can come here and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. I don't have to talk, really, level a nuker to (Necro) to 44 and then try to go kill those mobs with Blaze in Outlaw Forest at 44-45 with Blaze and a Karmian Set and tell me how much BSpS you waste on failures.
If you're one of those people who think spells don't fail - the rules change when the mob cons pink/red. Blaze will be bouncing almost as much as you will be, cause the mobs will own you before you can kill them. Those 300 dmg nukes u'll be doing with Karmian set 50% of the time will be laughed at, and witch doctors will out DPS you before you can kill them, resisting Blaze 70-80% of the time on average. Good Luck landing Gloom/Surrender to Fire on them, too.
Sorry, but there is nothing "newbish" about telling you what my personal experience was there, with a Karmian Set and +4 INT Tat vs a Demon Set and +4 INT with Greater Empower 3 on.
BTW: You cannot 2 shot those mobs with Blaze anyways unless you have a highly OE's Homu (like +8/9 or maybe even +10). The problem doesn't just stem from the fact that the mobs con pink/red, the "Power" of level 35 Blaze is just too low to be reliable on those level mobs. It's like popping someone upside the head with styrofoam. They are at least 3 shots with Blaze and a +5 Homu, Demon Set, Emp3, +4 INT Tatoo.
I care about Adena drops when casting Death Spike. If you don't recall, it's over 800a per mob to kill them (cause Blaze fails to much and doesn't do enough damage).
The mobs aren't 20 levels above the skill level. I don't have any buff bots (read my many threads about how I level with no outside buffs). I ocassionally get SE buffs from a clan Buff Bot when the controller isn't AFK - but she is usually at Arena anyways. Ocassionally I'll get an L2 Scroll if they are cheap enough (rare). Mana/HP/Empower pots drop very often in this area (cemetary better XP, but no pots so not viable for someone without buff bots). I always carry Acumen 2 and WW pots (from grocery store) and Healing Potion (400 Adena) to offset Body to Mind (meaning I never have to cast Corpse Life Drain so get full B2M regen benefits). I get about 1% a minute if I get outside buffs grinding there (1h 40'ish min a level).
I am talking about leveling myself. Outlaw firest is a level 50+ XP zone (on map list) and the difference between Karmian Set and Demon Set was the difference between life and death there. With Demon Set, I run around there like the mobs are dark blue, killing them as they spawn. With Karmian Set, I usually had to start spamming Aura Burn on them because spells failed way too much.
Karmian Set isn't even useful for PvP, since most players will have gear that requires higher MAtk to land anything for any decent effect. All debuffs will bounce and your spells will do 300 dmg. I was anchoring mid 6x with +3 C grade jewels with Demon Set (no Gloom, he had SE/PP buffs).
Who cares about what demon allows you to do. Get an OE weapon and you wouldn't even be having this discussion. I did 40-48 using blaze on the 1/2 hp mobs outside of the giran arena (aka tanor canyon mobs) and then I moved strate to Valley of Sains... all in karmian, emp 3, and a pair of +11 homu.
But even if I didn't have them... I'd move to a place where I can two shot single hp mobs using karmian. Why? Because the 25% cast speed bonus when comparing the two is a huge factor. Even if the mobs I'm fighting give less exp than the ones you are in Demon, I know for a fact ( and I have tested this before ) that the cast speed set for lower exp per kill will get more exp per buff round.
Now to address your post directly!
First of all you don't know what anyone is killing
Let me stop you right there. You can chose to go wherever you want to. People in this game aren't stupid. Well... they are... but not stupid enough to rack up the their pk count. Even if you are killed... if you are in the right area.. you will never lose exp. You will always make more. Not hunting in the good areas does more damage to your exp/ time ratio than pks do. This should never be an excuse for not going to a good hunting spot.
Moving on.
How dare you argue against VOS exp. I am in the same boat as Mulch. I cleared lvl 48 in an hour and a half alone. He is right... your exp rate sucked. Even before I went to Vos... I was using Blaze/Twister/Aqua Swirl (I level each nuker in the same area) on Tanor Canyon sets.
That is 2-3.5k exp each, 500-1000 adena each, half of them giving sweet fluid.. aka 100 extra adena, each one being 1 shot, each mob being in sets of 4, each set costing 1200 adena and giving around 11,000 exp and around 2500 adena. This does not include the various mats, blades, Spellbooks (6 solar flares and 1 shadow flare this time around with my elemental summoner) that drop too. At 44, I made 35-30% exp per buff round... using lvl 35 nukes. You can safely do this until about 48... which is when some mobs from the sets start turning light blue. The ES had to use demon... but this was only because as an ES, she could not use a +4 int tatoo. But if she could, she would be in the same boat as any other true nuker in karmian... karmian being a set that would have yielded much better results.
As for spells failing.... they cannot be 14 or more levels above the level you learned the nuke at. Otherwise, spells do not fail. The only exception are drains... a skills that has a unique type of failure that causes half damage. M atk has no bearing on it. It is your lack of experiance that leads you to believe otherwise. You are better off in Karmian... but you are stifled by your own ignorance. This is not an opinion... it is a fact. There is a level gap between nukes/ the nuked's level. And it is 14.
Sorry, but there is nothing "newbish" about telling you what my personal experience was there, with a Karmian Set and +4 INT Tat vs a Demon Set and +4 INT with Greater Empower 3 on.
Yes... it is newbish. I was a summoner on one character... so that was exceptional considering I didn't have lvl 40+ nukes, and I wasn't allow to use +int dyes... forcing me to use Demon... but what I am about to say still applies. Never use demon if you can use karmian and 2 shot single hp mobs in another area. You will always exp slower... and judging by your experiances, you did level slow. Yes.. you might have liked it... but that was only because of your lack of experiance. Did you try using karmian and killing the Formors or Karlk[?] Bug Bears outside of Ivory Tower? Did you try my spot in Tanor Canyon/ outside of Giran Arena? No. If you did, you will see how good exp at that level can really get. If you manage to get yourself into Valley of Saints while still in C grade... then you will know what good exp is.
Sorry... but more exp per kill =/= better exp. It's all about exp over time. My area was flowing with an endless sea of mobs so I am constnatly killing. Even without herbs ( and no, this is an herbless area ) no place was better. And drops where amazing considering what I put in. I made twice in adena than I spent... and this does not include the other drops. If I count the spellbooks (6 500k books and 1 1m book) then one must wonder why anyone would level anywhere else. Unless your area noob.
As for 48-52... then you move on to the Formor/Karlk[?] area... but that is only because of the level constraints of your nukes. There is the highest possible area to nuke without failures if you're still using the lvl 35 nukes. But since you moved on to Outlaw Forest... I am guessing that you are a noob.
Factoring in Zubei makes your more of a noob.
Talking about DPS in the short term (aka damage per nuke) is even more nube. Karmian will get you more kills per buff round. This is why killing weaker mobs with karmian will give you more exp than you killing better mobs with demon. I have done the test.... and this test involved over hit nukes... where you not only did more damage, but the overhit nukes yielded more exp with demon than without (sometimes 500-1000 more exp).
As for saying that karmian would not be being useful for pvp... sorry, but this not only makes you noob... it makes you kind of stupid. M atk doesn't effect landing rates. The level of the debuffs and the enemy Stats do. The higher your skill levels are... the lower your enemy is... the lower their Con ( for poison, stun, and etc ) and Wit/men (for silence, root, sleep, and etc), the higher your land rate. It doesn't matter what your m atk is. And considering how your damage is calculated, the most demon would add is 50-100 damage per nuke. All the while you are out of hp and 25% cast speed. You want to talk about dps? Lets talk. -2 wit is -10%, and the lack of 15% vs a cast speed set gives you a total of -25% cast speed. Unlike m atk, a stat that indirectly effects dps (aka it adds 50-100 per nuke), cast speed effects dps directly. While you're doing 50-100 more per nuke in pvp, I am casting 4 nukes in the time it takes you to cast 3. Lets put it this way.
Lets assume everyone has the same gear/ stats, with the exception of demon vs karmian sets.
Demon does 900, 900, 900 damage within 3 seconds.
Karmian does 800,800,800,800 damage within 3seconds.
Do you see the difference? Everyone else does... which is why they pick cast speed over m atk sets.
Please... don't for "most players"... because you do not know what you are talking about.
Who cares about what demon allows you to do. Get an OE weapon and you wouldn't even be having this discussion. I did 40-48 using blaze on the 1/2 hp mobs outside of the giran arena (aka tanor canyon mobs) and then I moved strate to Valley of Sains... all in karmian, emp 3, and a pair of +11 homu.
But even if I didn't have them... I'd move to a place where I can two shot single hp mobs using karmian. Why? Because the 25% cast speed bonus when comparing the two is a huge factor. Even if the mobs I'm fighting give less exp than the ones you are in Demon, I know for a fact ( and I have tested this before ) that the cast speed set for lower exp per kill will get more exp per buff round.
Now to address your post directly!
First of all you don't know what anyone is killing
Let me stop you right there. You can chose to go wherever you want to. People in this game aren't stupid. Well... they are... but not stupid enough to rack up the their pk count. Even if you are killed... if you are in the right area.. you will never lose exp. You will always make more. Not hunting in the good areas does more damage to your exp/ time ratio than pks do. This should never be an excuse for not going to a good hunting spot.
Moving on.
How dare you argue against VOS exp. I am in the same boat as Mulch. I cleared lvl 48 in an hour and a half alone. He is right... your exp rate sucked. Even before I went to Vos... I was using Blaze/Twister/Aqua Swirl (I level each nuker in the same area) on Tanor Canyon sets.
That is 2-3.5k exp each, 500-1000 adena each, half of them giving sweet fluid.. aka 100 extra adena, each one being 1 shot, each mob being in sets of 4, each set costing 1200 adena and giving around 11,000 exp and around 2500 adena. This does not include the various mats, blades, Spellbooks (6 solar flares and 1 shadow flare this time around with my elemental summoner) that drop too. At 44, I made 35-30% exp per buff round... using lvl 35 nukes. You can safely do this until about 48... which is when some mobs from the sets start turning light blue. The ES had to use demon... but this was only because as an ES, she could not use a +4 int tatoo. But if she could, she would be in the same boat as any other true nuker in karmian... karmian being a set that would have yielded much better results.
As for spells failing.... they cannot be 14 or more levels above the level you learned the nuke at. Otherwise, spells do not fail. The only exception are drains... a skills that has a unique type of failure that causes half damage. M atk has no bearing on it. It is your lack of experiance that leads you to believe otherwise. You are better off in Karmian... but you are stifled by your own ignorance. This is not an opinion... it is a fact. There is a level gap between nukes/ the nuked's level. And it is 14.
Sorry, but there is nothing "newbish" about telling you what my personal experience was there, with a Karmian Set and +4 INT Tat vs a Demon Set and +4 INT with Greater Empower 3 on.
Yes... it is newbish. I was a summoner on one character... so that was exceptional considering I didn't have lvl 40+ nukes, and I wasn't allow to use +int dyes... forcing me to use Demon... but what I am about to say still applies. Never use demon if you can use karmian and 2 shot single hp mobs in another area. You will always exp slower... and judging by your experiances, you did level slow. Yes.. you might have liked it... but that was only because of your lack of experiance. Did you try using karmian and killing the Formors or Karlk[?] Bug Bears outside of Ivory Tower? Did you try my spot in Tanor Canyon/ outside of Giran Arena? No. If you did, you will see how good exp at that level can really get. If you manage to get yourself into Valley of Saints while still in C grade... then you will know what good exp is.
Sorry... but more exp per kill =/= better exp. It's all about exp over time. My area was flowing with an endless sea of mobs so I am constnatly killing. Even without herbs ( and no, this is an herbless area ) no place was better. And drops where amazing considering what I put in. I made twice in adena than I spent... and this does not include the other drops. If I count the spellbooks (6 500k books and 1 1m book) then one must wonder why anyone would level anywhere else. Unless your area noob.
As for 48-52... then you move on to the Formor/Karlk[?] area... but that is only because of the level constraints of your nukes. There is the highest possible area to nuke without failures if you're still using the lvl 35 nukes. But since you moved on to Outlaw Forest... I am guessing that you are a noob.
Factoring in Zubei makes your more of a noob.
Talking about DPS in the short term (aka damage per nuke) is even more nube. Karmian will get you more kills per buff round. This is why killing weaker mobs with karmian will give you more exp than you killing better mobs with demon. I have done the test.... and this test involved over hit nukes... where you not only did more damage, but the overhit nukes yielded more exp with demon than without (sometimes 500-1000 more exp).
As for saying that karmian would not be being useful for pvp... sorry, but this not only makes you noob... it makes you kind of stupid. M atk doesn't effect landing rates. The level of the debuffs and the enemy Stats do. The higher your skill levels are... the lower your enemy is... the lower their Con ( for poison, stun, and etc ) and Wit/men (for silence, root, sleep, and etc), the higher your land rate. It doesn't matter what your m atk is. And considering how your damage is calculated, the most demon would add is 50-100 damage per nuke. All the while you are out of hp and 25% cast speed. You want to talk about dps? Lets talk. -2 wit is -10%, and the lack of 15% vs a cast speed set gives you a total of -25% cast speed. Unlike m atk, a stat that indirectly effects dps (aka it adds 50-100 per nuke), cast speed effects dps directly. While you're doing 50-100 more per nuke in pvp, I am casting 4 nukes in the time it takes you to cast 3. Lets put it this way.
Lets assume everyone has the same gear/ stats, with the exception of demon vs karmian sets.
Demon does 900, 900, 900 damage within 3 seconds.
Karmian does 800,800,800,800 damage within 3seconds.
Do you see the difference? Everyone else does... which is why they pick cast speed over m atk sets.
Please... don't for "most players"... because you do not know what you are talking about.
Just like to add here that while i do agree speed is much nicer then slow matk, im also biased since im then factoring having buffs and recharge.
Demon shines when it comes to solo nuking play where more XP / mana actually is better, becouse youd then have to factor in downtime ;)
However with endless mana, its all about the xp/time, wich the highest DPS will win.
Down time? Not with SHs/ Necromancers. SHs could stay up indefinately (and if played right, I'm talking perma /walk and b2m+heal pots asap) with clear mind unlike Necros... and now Necros can stay up indefinately because of herbs. If it wasn't for the fact that I am still too low on mine to 2 shot without empower... I wouldn't even need my SE in VoS. With CH buffs... my SE was sitting in town selling stuff while I was exping. Deathspike effects pve like no other. And now... with herbs... there is no reason why either of them would ever need down time if they use death spike.
But even if you did have to factor in down time.... it makes no sense. It's true... casting slower and doing more damage will trick you into thinking it's more efficient for time/exp... bit it isn't. You kill less... so it takes longer to go through your pool... it gives you more time to regen.. but it does not give you more exp/ kills. Yes... cast speed sets give you more downtime... but it's only because you are killing so much more.
Not that you need a reason to defend demon set... especially to me.... a person who still owns the set. Yes.. there are certain situation where demon is preferable as a specialty... but as far as general use goes... cast speed for the win.
Down time? Not with SHs/ Necromancers. SHs could stay up indefinately (and if played right, I'm talking perma /walk and b2m+heal pots asap) with clear mind unlike Necros... and now Necros can stay up indefinately because of herbs. If it wasn't for the fact that I am still too low on mine to 2 shot without empower... I wouldn't even need my SE in VoS. With CH buffs... my SE was sitting in town selling stuff while I was exping. Deathspike effects pve like no other. And now... with herbs... there is no reason why either of them would ever need down time if they use death spike.
But even if you did have to factor in down time.... it makes no sense. It's true... casting slower and doing more damage will trick you into thinking it's more efficient for time/exp... bit it isn't. You kill less... so it takes longer to go through your pool... it gives you more time to regen.. but it does not give you more exp/ kills. Yes... cast speed sets give you more downtime... but it's only because you are killing so much more.
Not that you need a reason to defend demon set... especially to me.... a person who still owns the set. Yes.. there are certain situation where demon is preferable as a specialty... but as far as general use goes... cast speed for the win.
You fail to realize that not everyone XPs with full buffs 100% of the time. Even at level 44 with Karmian Set I could not Single Shot the mobs outside Tanor Canyon with Blaze (maybe death spike, but their adena drops are not proportional with the cost to nuke them with this skill, despite what you say). Once again, I've been there. I actually hung out deleveling myself down over and over at level 44 to farm SP to max my skills out, I've tried XPing in at least a dozen places at that level (since I wanted maximum XP gain due to my deleveling for XP).
I use the B2M+Heal Pots technique and I never have mana problems. I have tried the Orcs near Giran and their XP is only slightly better than that of Ivory Tower Crator. Their Adena drops are a non-factor cause the quest in Ivory Tower Crator more than makes up for the 25-75 less adena per mob you get there, and spell books drop often enough there (Silence, Hex, etc. all high selling books on my server - upwards of 500k each).
Cast Speed is also a non-factor to me as long as I can run to the Grocery Store and buy Magic Haste Potions. The cast speed I get from wearing a Karmian Set is very much less important than the M.Atk on the Demon set (to me).
Where did I argue against Valley of the Saints XP? Quote me... Just because I think the place where I XP is good enough for me (mobs are already mostly deep red) and I feel that is the epitome of risk I would rather take (given I'm usually Self/Pot buffed) doesn't mean I am undermining the exprience anyone has taken. You're ranting uselessness, I dare you to quote me.
Also, I clock my XP by the minute, and killing the mobs that I kill with Karmian set will not come close to the 1%/minute that I get with a demon set.
I have never seen a +11 Homu for sale, and I'm sure it would be close to or more than 100mil to buy it. Gratz on being rich, everyone isn't and arguing on the point of such a highly OE'd weapon is useless.
It's awesome that your clan grinds in Ancient Adena, but I and many others don't. We grind alone, in outdoor areas.
When I do grind in a catacomb, I sell my AA for 2 Adena Each, so I don't take the price difference in. What I'm taking in to account is the fact that the +/-4 Tats cost about 9-10x as much as the Grocery Store Trader tatoos (450k'ish vice 4mil or so). That's a huge price difference. For the difference in price for those 3 tats, I can buy a full Zubei or Avadon Robe set (~14.5mil for top, bottom, glove, boot, and helm - all +3 - on Bartz).
I think upgrading my gear to B grade from C Grade is more important than some MDef that doesn't really mean much cause getting buffs is so easy. That's just my opinion, however.
Note that I mentioned the -5str one is more than worth it... so my suggestion was just for the two caster stats. If you are going to start comparing numbers, I'd prefer you used the right ones...
On my server, it's just under 7 mil for both tats provided you buy them. This is for endgame tats that you will wear for the rest of the character's existance.
Why throw 1 mil to the wind when you can save up 7mil and get the best the game has to offer?
When your character is 7x and you wish to PvP, you will care very deeply that you have 2 MEN less than what you should have... Mdef is powerful stuff.
Frankly good endgame tats are worth waiting a bit to upgrade to than wasting 1 mil on tats you will be replacing.
You are upgrading robes either way... its only the time frame at which you do it that is in question.
7mil in adena or 3.4mil in ancient isn't much money at all...
Especially considering what you get for the price and how long you wil be using it.
You are going to spend 50mil+ in B grade gear alone, somewhere around 200mil+ for A grade sets... and you are going to pinch pennies for 7mil on what will turn out to be endgame tats?
Hey it's your nickel... so if you want to underequip yourself, thats your call.
Adena is tight for me too... but somehow I've always managed to equip myself while getting the superior tats...
i was -12 men on my necro and never felt it one bit
i fought side by side with equal lvl necros with the far superior -10 men and noone would be able to tell the difference
I hear that. My necro would still be +9 -12 men if it wasn't for the fact that I switched +1wit-2men for +4con-5str.
You fail to realize that not everyone XPs with full buffs 100% of the time
You fail to realize that I mentioned several cases, including an unbuffed one all the way up to 6x. You fail to realize that 2 shotting with a cast speed set in a lower level area is better than 2 shotting with demon in a higher level area.
And it's easy for you to talk about being cheap when you only worry about one toon. Trying doing like I did. Make 31-42-53-64 festival alts, a 56 elemental summoner for raid support (including teleporting friends across the map), on top of your buffer and main. That 20.4m aa hurts... expecially when it costs 3-5 adena each on your server.
Not that I ever had a reason to complain. My m def was just fine with -12 men. FYI, a lvl 61 necro with +3 maj jewels has 705 m def with -9 men, and 687 m def with -12 men. That's what... a 2% difference?
You forget Bhod, I have multiple characters over 6x.
I maintain that 3.4mil ancient is a tiny price to pay for endgame equipment.
I have alts as well and to be frank I don't spend as much on them as I do on the "main" characters, but that doesn't mean I won't spend the 7mil for the characters I plan to PvP with.
If you want to face your enemies with 18 less mdef, then go ahead...
I note you enchanted and unsealed your jewels...
Do you have any idea of the level of hypocrisy it takes to tell someone that saving 6 mil adena on tats and giving up 18mdef is a good idea when you spent HOW MUCH on unsealing and enchanting your majestic?
You could leave 3 of your five jewels sealed and choose the better tats instead.... incidentally you'd have more mana and better resistance to interrupt... did I mention you'd save ancient adena this way too?
You could leave 9 or more of the enchants off the majestic jewels and save more than 2 million adena from the cheap tats plan AND have better mana and resistance to interrupt.
Note that BOTH of those plans result in the same Mdef difference at your level... 18 mdef.
I have a better idea... spend the money, get the best, and compete directly with the other necros instead of being el-cheapo to yourself.
What server do you play on? If I was on the same server for 2-3 years I would end up the same way... but this isn't the case for Franz. Not that I care about this... no... what I want to know is where hypocrisy comes into play?
I got all those cheap tats, 1 elven mithril set, 1 karmian set, 1 demon set, 1 avadon set, and 1 dc set. I also have +3-5 elven jewels, +3-4 half lux, half top C jewels, +3 BO set, and +3 Maj set. As for weapons I have a +5 SOL, +0 Mysterious sword, +11 homu, and +3 som. All my chars use that gear. And all of my characters are mages, summoners, and support classes. All the gear stays on my SE's WH... and she distributes it depending on who I am playing. My mains have priority in gear... while my SE wears the best she can get.
You see.. they can share the gear this way.... unlike tattoos.
I am not going to waste an additional 30m+ adena for +2% m def on all my characters. The damage it decreases is so very little.... odds are that it would still take the same amount of nukes to kill me.
You choose to save 6 mil on one place for 18mdef, and yet spend a great deal more on 18 mdef in other places.
I am not suggesting you spend the money on all your toons... just the ones you plan to PvP with.
Why give your opponent ANY advantage?
FYI, that 61 necro is gonna take 20-50 more damage per bsps nuke against similarly levelled necros.
You will be interrupted more often
(less mana and less mana regen, but I wil admit those are pretty much insignificant due to their tiny results on any nuker)
Sure, 20-50 damage doesn't seem like much... but 3-4 nukes means they did up to 200 more damage than they would have... over time how much will you save in CP pots?
That is counter-balanced with 6 mil? That isn't a decision, its a no-brainer for long-term PvP characters!
Bhodo, just pointing out some stuff that you have false information about.
You said that Demon is -2WIT, it's only -1WIT, so all of your ranting about the 25% casting speed difference is false; only a 20% casting speed difference, and that still is a large percent.
You also said that since you're an ES, you can't use INT tats. That's also false. According the Enhancements page, ES's can use INT tats.
5.45mil per tat not counting the cost to make them at the symbol maker.
This is the price gotten from pretty much the only vendor in Aden on my server who has the +4/-4 INT/Men and WIT/Men tats that I have seen (and I checked every major town, many times). The price is going up it seems cause they were 450k each a month ago. So roughly 11 mil for the tats.
For the record, +10 Homu + Karmian Set + Greater Empower 3/Berzerker Spirit 2 cannot 2 shot mobs in Valley of the Saints at level 48-51. I just did those levels there and the Demon Set was required to 2 shot Blade of Splendor clones (the ones that spawn after you hit it, or kill it) and Wisdom of Splendor. At 48-49 I couldn't even 2 Shot the others with a Karmian Set on, so I doubt you were doing it with full SE/PP buffs (like I had) and a +11 Homu with Karmian Set (+1 enchantment more than the one I have, and I have a +M.Atk/P.Def/Max MP augmentation on mine (49 mid grade)). I think OE's Greater Empower 3 gives Clarity Effect (at least the +3 I had on did), so it's certainly not the buff. Maybe the difference was race (DEF vice Human - but Demon Set adds +4 Int which makes up for the innate DEF advantage in that area, so I'm still in the dark, no pun intended).
I must admid the XP is just too good :)
But I could not 2 shot those mobs with a Karmian Set. At 52 you are able to 2 shot them with just Empower 3 with either Zubei or Avadon Set due to M.ATK gained as you level as well as new passives learned at level 52 (3 levels of Weapon Mastery). Zubei gives you innate cast speed bonus over Demon due to no -1 WIT and you only lose 34 M.ATK (negligible).
I doubt a +11 Homu over a +10 is actually going to make up for the difference in M.ATK between Demon and Karmian Robe sets, but I'm sure you have a spreadsheet worked out and can set me straight (please do, if I am incorrect, btw).
BTW I have always had both robe sets at each grade, so no use calling noob on a subject that I really don't have to contend with myself - when I need one or the other the armor is in my inventory and I switch it out. Devotion/Knowledge, Karmian/Demon, Avadon/Zubei - anyways I like looking different - some armor looks better than others :)
As far as the extra 50 dmg from nukes, my servitor can eat that (I will XP with Reanimated Man and TP up if I think there is the slightest chance I will run into an Agro player), and the mana pool/mana regen isn't all that much. I get more mana than I lose from the extra -2 WIT from the Augmentation I put on my Homu.
P.S. I spend alot of Time in Arena today after hitting B Grade and I don't see the MDef as that much of a problem, or the MEN. Since Interlute I have two 3 very stable ways to shut down a caster (Anchor, Curse: Fear, Silence) and two for melee (Curse: Fear, Anchor). Gloom almost always lands even on opponents wiht ~1k M.Def and Curse: Fear easily has about 70-80% land rate there after (it's fast cast, and recharges in a couple seconds).
With Demon Set on, I owned an SPS 12 levels higher than me.
My Gloom is faster than their nuke and their spells aren't powerful enough to break my CP when 20% of their dmg is going to my Corrupted Man. Didn't even interrupt me with Concentration 1 on. He got silenced, and died soon after.
I think I got stunned by archer once out of about 100 shots I took today (but I think that's CON based and since I have +4 CON that makes a little sense). Anyways, Anchor lands reliably on archers at least 8 levels higher than me, and fear even more reliably. Gloom, Fear, Anchor = I win.
I can kite most tank classes after I Gloom and Slow them (Grocery Store WW pots) and if u can't catch me it's game over cause you will soon be Feared or Anchored. Their arrows don't hurt like Archers so I can take a few of those while I gather some distance (and my Corrupted Man hits their CP a bit).
Players with Boss Jewels are a different story, though :) LMAO!
The MEN is useless to me, atm. I will put my cash in armor until I get to levels that don't go by in pairs per day and then upgrade them - since I know I won't have to worry about upgrading armor for weeks.
I can see how a Tank Class would not want to touch their men (cause they don't wanna be feared/anchored/slowed/etc.) but for a nuker it's do or die. If another nuker/archer/tank interrupts your cast and/or gets the jump on you and you don't have innate advantages (Servitor + TP) then you're pretty much dead anyways, with your low HP/CP and horrible damage mitigation for melee/archer damage.
Humor me for a bit. Throw karmian back on and gloom the mobs that aren't readily 2 shot with your setup. Watch your exp rate per buff round and tell me if the occasional gloom yields more exp than straight up demon.
Also... are you using death spike on every shot? Or do you alternate between vamp claw? If you do, this does have an effect on your kill rate. It's cheaper... but it is also slower, and it drains your mana faster.
I spam Death Spike, no vamp claw unless a mob is on me and i absolutely need to (otherwise just heal potion).
Sorry, Gloom?!
"Occasional Gloom" is a funny term. You'd have to gloom 70% of the mobs there to kill them with two shots. You can XP faster by just hitting them 3x with death spike (save mana). Without an SE bot, I have never come close to running OOM, so having an SE tailing you to to recharge is a non-factor. The mobs are so overcon, mana herbs drop more often than not - loads of superiors once ever 5-10 minutes and more HP herbs than you can shake a stick at (Body to Mind). The only reason to even get buffed is for Berzerker Spirit, and to not have to worry about picking the non-mana/hp herbs up.
I seriously put the gear on and checked this out cause I was curious (blades hit hella hard and more cast speed would have helped), but with having to take a whole other shot at them (or waste 48 MP a mob casting gloom beforehand, like you suggest), there was little to no benefit to the cast speed setup. I leveled there from 47.5 to 51 yesterday, and then to 52 this morning.
I will say you were right that my XP rate sucked in Outlaw Forest - it's demoted to my new PL place for my roomate (future Necro).
I had a discussion in this forum regarding Karmian and Demon set and viciously defended Karmian set, until I got a Demon set and I must say there is no reason to use Karmian over Demon at those levels. Did you have a +4 WIT tatoo when u did those levels?
Is there any chance we can get this back onto the OP's topic? I'm a 48 Necro in Karmian with a +5 SoWD and magic power. I tend to AOE using death spike and corpse burst. Any suggestions on tattos suitable for my type of play? I tend to carry basic healing pots to keep me topped up and I don't walk around with buffs (only those from the clan hall when I'm in the area). I mainly rely on herbs of magic.
All the Tatoos are the same. +4 INT/MEN is the standard, and last one you can choose between CON and DEX - most choose CON. You can also get +1 INT/WIT with more -MEN.
What's a SoWD :P
I've never seen one of those :) Doesn't that SA just give 34 M.ATK?
Don't ask questions. Don't look at mana... don't consider gloom as an extra cast. Do it and tell me which setup gave you more exp. I already have an answer to karmian vs demon... and it's the same for every class but elemental summoner(thanks btw) and sps... and I have the same setups as you... barring the fact that my homu is +11 and not +10.
Sorry but I don't see how I would benefit from that.
Anyways, you have something to add everytime you realize your earlier argument is somewhat flawwed.
You said one thing, I did it and see that it is impossible, now you have more to add to it.
I have hit B grade, and they are 2 shot with just empower for me now - find some other necro to test this on. I guarantee you they will not be able to continue killing nonstop spamming gloom + 2 death spike on every mob and outlevel a same level necro using demon set and just two shotting with Death Spike. Gloom is a waste of MP when you can level just as fast using a Demon Set 2 shotting with Death Spike. The cast speed from Karmian isn't all that needed (all the mobs spawn conveniently in 900 unless you have to run to the other side of the wall - for the most part).
Also by glooming you are introducing additional (unneeded/unwanted) risk into trivial grinding. When you gloom Blade of Splendor, it will port to you and split. Now you have wo mobs hitting you for 200+ and critting for 800-1050 :)
Demon Set and no Gloom is much safer, and more reliable in my recent experiences grinding those levels at VoS. It's just too easy to die - their PAtk/MAtk is high and your PDef/MDef is too low to be relied on (and I had +3 all armor/shield and +3 Top C jewel set).
I only ever had to gloom wisdom (and/ or claw, I forgot) of splendor... and that ended once I got my 52 skillset. Nothing about what I said was flawed. I just did it with my necro. As in... a week or two ago.. I JUST GOT FINISHED DOING THIS WITH MY NECRO. Leveled from 48 to 60 with the same setup as you. I know what the results are with both sets.... I don't know why you are still try to debate it without ever trying it. There is no arguement here. No flaw. It's nothing but cold, hard facts. You keep bringing in all these meaningless factors in... and despite being there with almost equal gear, I am still forced to believe that you have no idea as to what you are talking about.
Seriously. The fact that you dared to suggest glooming a Blade of Splendor alone is laughable. The first one has the lowest m def/ hp out of the all the mobs in VOS. With my 48 skills, I could kill them with 2 shots... 1 without bsps. At 60... I can gloom and 1 shot the first one... glooming and two shotting the second... with only 1 hit of bsps.... none of them ever having time to do their crit skill (orange aura animation thing). And it has to be that skill.... because their normal crits never did more than 300 damage to me... and I wore karmian robes and top D boots, shield, and clan oath helmet. Hell... I even wore +3 top D jewlery set (the D stuff belonging to my 31- festival alt) before I moved to +3 bo... and the only thing that really hurt me where Flash of Splendors... and that was for 700 damage... and guess what, unless I drew aggro from them, they never hit me... and after I got into a good spot, I never drew aggro from them. Heh... and those guys never had to be gloomed either. I do it because it saves me 3 bsps every time.... mama/time never having to factor in because of how fast it casts and how little my mana consumption is. I don't know if I already told you, but despite having an SE to recharge me... she was in giran selling gear as I was in VOS. Emp/ zerk came from buddies that where near by... so the only real issue I had was with keeping people from taking my spot as I ran away to get a few buffs. Not having to mess with demon like you did.
As for them splitting as soon as you nuke/ debuff them... so what? I killed so fast that I would nuke/ debuff several mobs at a time so they will be at my feet as soon as I kill them... all for the sake of bringing the drops to me instead of wasting time picking them up before I pick another target... something I did only when I felt my drops where threatened by noobs in the area (drops really slow you down if you pay attention... something I bet you will argue against too). Not that it adds any risk to grinding. You have to be really bad at this game to ever be suggesting demon... especially now that you're trying to factor out instant casting debuffs that make NO impact to your mana pool... a debuff that was only required on 1, possibly 2 types of mobs until lvl 52... all at the cost of killing what is effectively 20% slower in general than I did.
Second Blade of Splender will need Gloom to be two shot (the one that pops out after you hit/kill it has higher HP and/or M.Def). Claw of Splendor will need Gloom. Wisdom of Splendor will need Gloom.
You can level up there and avoid Claw of Splendor entirely. Wisdom/Blade of Splendor are everywhere. You will have to Gloom 30-40% of the mobs you kill. With Karmian Set, that is. Gloom is not needed with Demon.
Flash of Splendors hurt for sure :) But I either interrupted them, or killed them before their nuke got off. I think I got nuked like 3 times in all those levels.
Not Arguing. Gloom cost more MP than you get back from B2M, but B2M gives you more MP than 1 Death Spike. You save mana nuking them 3 times instead of Gloom + two nukes for that many mobs you'd have to Gloom. With a cast speed setup, you should be able to 3 shot them just as fast as Demon set can 2 shot them. You save MP = higher uptime = more XP, since you said your SE was in Giran /vendor'ing.
I hardly ever pick up drops when I'm grinding - my roomate follows me around on his D grade character and pick them up for me. They only thing I pick up are Herbs or Mana. Grocery Store Healing Potions negated B2M Lvl 2 pretty much completely, so all the mana is free (on top of the higher MP from Demon Robe Set, and overall less MP spent per span of time due to no Gloom). I doubt you were killing more than me per/hr if you were picking up anything more than mana pots, cause that's all I pick up.
My roomate picked up all my drops for me, and then I go PL him to make up for his lost time/XP.
I did levels 48, 49, and 50 all in 50 minutes or less (as I used L2Day Empower Scrolls and I still had buff left after the entire levels - 49 and 48 in maybe 40 minutes or so). Level 51 seemed to take close to 2 hours, but I slacked off and did more chat/AFK (Smoke Breaks) during that level.
I don't see a Same-level Necro with a Karmian Set and Same buffs without a Recharge Bot eclipsing that leveling time - especially when casting Gloom on 30-40% of the mobs in the field.
Of course that is your experience, so I have no choice but to take it for what it's worth.
LOL @ you have to be bad at this game to go with a Demon set at those levels!
I had both sets, I went with which one allowed me max XP/hr. I dunno how you got the opposite results, seriously. It's not Calculus III, it's simple arithmatic...
You go on for pages and pages arguing that Karmian was > Demon then after I take the time to test it out for myself and give you my results you come back and tell me to try Karmian with the "ocassional" gloom (on mob types that are really common in the fields there - after I have leveled past those levels). Like I said, what else is new (now you're telling me picking up drops is slow, I either have someone there to pick up for me, or I lag everyone out with them cause I don't pick them up until I'm ready to go).
It doesn't have anything to do with sucking at this game (which is incredibly difficult to do) - you should just give me your list of 10 miscellaneous conditions before you start calling people a noob and telling them they don't know what they're talking about.
I guess that extra +1 enchant does make that much of a difference, eh (gives less M.Atk than the augmentation on my homu, btw, as per L2Calc).
Seems like you apparently haven't leveled there with a Demon Set (but I have done both) cause you really don't sound like you know what you're talking about from both ends - just your own narrow perspective.
It's not my experiance. It's everyone's. But you chose to ignore it all in favor of keeping demon without even trying karmian... all the while getting hung up on meaningless factors and going as far as suggesting that 3 shotting is preferable to gloom + 2 shotting.... and that going demon is faster than the occasional gloom with karmian at low levels.
There really is nothing else to say though. You won't test it without shutting your mouth... so you will never know which gives you more exp per buff round... so no point beating a horse that is dyeing of thirst [quoting a friend here].
I will say that I have since leveled an ES to 52... and I bet she leveled 1-52 faster than you did 40-52 with your necro =/
I just told you I leveled there (I was 48 when i joined this discussion) and tried Karmian Set and it was inefficient (in my experience) to level there with it.
I have tested it. I'm so sorry you cannot read my posts and see that.
I don't care what you leveled since then, or how fast you leveled it. I care about the results of the test that I ran when you told me that Karmian > Demon set at this area for leveling at the respective level range. I care about mana efficiency and maximum uptime.
All Karmian Set did was make me have to press something other than F1. My kills were very fast, I kept the field clean.
You have a screwed up definition of "occasional", seriously. Wisdom/Blade/Claw make up easily 30-40% of the mobs in that field, maybe even more. Yes, with superior cast speed of Karmian Set, 3 shotting is more mana/efficient to 2 shotting while leading off with Gloom. What's the use of nuking fast if you're inefficient at it - it's like playing an SPS without a recharge bot, except you had B2M Lvl 2 (eaten up by Curse Gloom).
I tested it sir, read my post:
"You go on for pages and pages arguing that Karmian was > Demon then after I take the time to test it out for myself and give you my results you come back and tell me to try Karmian with the "ocassional" gloom"
And earlier in this thread:
"For the record, +10 Homu + Karmian Set + Greater Empower 3/Berzerker Spirit 2 cannot 2 shot mobs in Valley of the Saints at level 48-51. I just did those levels there and the Demon Set was required to 2 shot Blade of Splendor clones (the ones that spawn after you hit it, or kill it) and Wisdom of Splendor. At 48-49 I couldn't even 2 Shot the others with a Karmian Set on, so I doubt you were doing it with full SE/PP buffs (like I had) and a +11 Homu with Karmian Set (+1 enchantment more than the one I have, and I have a +M.Atk/P.Def/Max MP augmentation on mine (49 mid grade))."
Can you read? You don't seem to do it often.
Mana efficiency is not a "meaningless factor". Is that another miscomprehension of terms?
So, to sum it up (since you don't read very well):
* I leveled from 48-52 in Valley of Saints
* I have both Karmian and Demon Robe Sets and tested both sets there (during this thread/discussion)
* I could not 2 shot over 60% of the mobs there with Karmian Set.
* Casting Gloom instead of Another Death spike with a Cast speed set is mana inefficient - were you worried about costs.
* The only drops I picked up were Herb of Mana.
* I had full PP/SE buffs with both sets.
* I leveled every 40 - 50 minutes from 48 - 51 - That isn't slow...
* You had no mention of Gloom until after I had run the test and leveled to 52, but for the sake of mana efficiency/uptime/unwillingness to delvl, it's a non-factor to me.
My conclusion is that Demon Set > Karmian set for lvling on these mobs. Sorry we disagree.
Once again, I ran extensive test on this during the course of this thread/discussion (although no Gloom since you didn't mention it until I had eclipsed those levels).