I have a 43 Warlock. I like him, I like playing as summoners. But I'm just wondering if the Phantom Summoner would suit my tastes more.
Phantom Summoners seem more offensive than Warlocks do, I like that. I also like the idea of the Soulless, getting the slight mana drain for using the summon. Its spells seem like it would accent an AoE party well, even a Summoner AoE party with an ES. Merrow ftw. Also, there's that cool factor of just being able to control /demons/. And the 56 summon is the most appealing to me of the three.
I like my Warlock, I love playing him, but I'm just wondering on the playstyle of the Phantom Summoner. Info from those currently playing them would be awesome. =D
Mehrunes is hot, and I will make you waste many, many C Crystals if you ditch him.
No, PSs are not more offensive - they are more sturdy thanks to the spark and phantom cubics. It's not a slight drain either by the way - it pretty much stops your regeneration, so say byebye to hunting in catacombs.
The soulless spells are close to worthless in an AoE party, although you will make a fine point healer after 56 - just don't try to AoE hex/PB, because not only is the effect weak, but you'll wind up healing yourself since it doubles a hate aura.
I like the PS, because the shadow can comfortably mow down challenging mobs (I hunted for my own greater shield drop off deep red mobs at the time without downtime), and because the cubics are awesome.
The soulless however is the weakest, most ill-concepted pi--pretty servitor that ever had the misfortune of being called over to Aden.
The nightshade is indeed the most fun of the three (for me), but doing stun cures on an ES can be vaguely interesting as well (better than buff*****ing but boring as all hell still).
If you reroll to something fun and different, do the ES. :p
Fine. I'll stay with Runes. I'm not being no **** Elf.
Though I gotta say ES's have the most skill symmetry with their summons... Mass Surrender to Water, Wizard Servitor... etc.
EDIT: Forgot to say what I actually wanted to, lol.
I understand the mana drain pretty much stops mana regeneration, but I think that's kind of cool. A challenge to overcome, as it were. And you know I don't like to nitpick with the finer points of damage and mana regeneration over time, etc etc.
And the Soulless isn't the only thing I'm concerned with. I know you've played your PS to death, Maline. What's different about the overall playstyle? I know you said that the cubics are more defensive, but it feels like being offensive, to me. Defensive to me is being able to absorb and mitigate damage. Stopping damage from comming at you, what stun does, is a form of offense to me. Are PS's more capable of being assistant damage dealers through melee combat than Warlocks? Or are they more likely to be background debuffers and healers?
I'm kind of in the same position, except I'm debating which summoner to sub in a couple days..
How good is it to AoE with an ES? Can you go from 40-> like forever in the fields. Start in Giran area and move to Oren then AB.. is it possible to solo with outside SE/PP buffs?
I had my eye on the PS, since it's quite versatile, but it seems you always sacrifice something with the PS, and it might become a hassle to level. Except for the crappy skills the Soulless has, is it much of a hassle later? Didn't like that it can have trouble in catas, what if it has VR, no problem then? :P
Warlock was my original intent, but I don't want to end up sitting on my *** buffing with Feline Queen.
I can speak for the ES's... having listening to Maline rant and my own girlfriend having played one. They are very good at solo AoE, and with outside buffs, become just nasty dirty insane. I don't know how far up the ladder you can solo AoE with them... maybe low-mid 60's. But after that they can still do well, just as any summoner can, solo hunting mobs.
Summoners have the tag as being THE solo class. It is quite possible to solo up to the 70's with a summoner without straining yourself.
i know summoners that have gone to 78 solo. I play a subbed warlock on another account... and i have to say that's alot of fun, mew is a **** beast. solo 2 full cata rooms with out side buffs, and no down time. Binding cubic lands so much ... makes me feel like i'm cheating. And Mulch, you will be like a buff pet after 56 to archer/aoe parties, but when you're sick of that, just go solo... almost just as fast.
The soulless however is the weakest, most ill-concepted pi--pretty servitor that ever had the misfortune of being called over to Aden.
I don't understand what you have against Soulless... I am now well into Ag and I solo with Soulless just fine. His mana drain SLOWS your MP regen, and if you want to make it regenerate like normal go with doom light armor or Tallum light armor. It doesn't stop your MP regen at all. I have a feeling you have never really tried using him at all.... Yeah using Shadow is safe, but he takes an extra 20% from you! Learn to use soulless and cut back your grinding time. His nukes suck and the mana drain is annoying, but his Patk is great and you can easily work around the low Pdef. Takes some time and experimentation to figure him out and YES you will probubly have to step out of your comfort zone...
Being a dark elf, Phantom summoners have an inately strong patk, allowing them to make good use of many different fighter weapons. They are also extremely versital.
Lately, I have been expieramenting with using heavy armor as a summoning and grinding or PvPing with nightshade. Yeah, this SEEMS to be totally against logic, but it works with suprising success.
I am also no noob to the summoner class as I am well into the 60s and approaching 70s. You just have to keep your mind open when playing as a Phantom Summoner because so many options are avalible to you. And yeah, playing with demons is freaking awsome! :)
Kai and Queen definatly have weaker skills compared to the other summoner classes. I highly suggest going a Phantom Summoner or Elemental Summoner instead. I love my Phantom Summoner class and wouldn't give it up for anything. My sister plays ES and she loves it as well, all summons are very useful and can be used in many different ways.
MANA DRAIN DOES NOT STOP MP REGENERATION. It just slows it. Get some armor with an MP regen bonus if this bugs you and problem solved......
I am also well into the 60's and approaching 70, and I agree with Maline that the soulless is the worst PoS summon in the game...when soloing. Its fantastic as a dd in a party.
I'd have to disagree with her tho about PS being defensive. We are pure offense, no doubt about it, and using shadow you can rip through catacombs with ease, even without a box buffer.
Sure, Shadow takes 30% xp, but the upside is that he doesn't need a lot of healing and you don't really have to be careful either, hence faster killing imo.
The shadow is a defensive servitor (when compared to Boxer and Kat), and the cubics are both defensive as well (stunning may be an attack, but it helps mitigate damage, is therefore defensive in my book).
I've played all three summoners, and that's the comparison I'm making. I'm not saying the PS is not a DD, and Cerval knows that as well.
As far as soloing with soulless goes: Yeah you can, in the field. Forget doing full catacomb rooms, forget doing challenging fields or dungeons, unless you have outside buffs (I do and it's still difficult).
Sure I can solo with Soulless, but it's painful at best. Especially compared to Merrow - every time I think about Hydro Screw i want to reroll again.
I'm reluctant to roll to Phantom Summoner, since I've put time and effort, and plans into my Lock, but I'm thinking that it might be more my style.
I agree with Maline on the fact that Shadow is much more defensive than Kat and Boxer is, if not for the fact that it lacks a recharge, and has VR. I don't know the P Def and P Atk stats on Shadow, but I'm thinking he has more P Def than Kat and Boxer, yes? Maybe more HP, I'm not for sure.
Also, I'm not planning on doing a lot of soloing with the Soulless. It was going to be my party summon anyway. I'm very good with mana usage, I think... at least I've never been below half mana, ever, on my Lock. Not even in emergencies. I'm still thinking about it...
Stats are identical? Interesting... so the only real difference in tanking ability between Shadow and say Kat is the passive VR effect of Shadow. Oh, and another thing, being that Dark Elves have the weakest cast speed of the three summoners, does that effect their ability to keep the summons alive much at all?
I recently rerolled from an ES to a PS and I enjoy the PS more for soloing. I must say though, i went from 46 - 58 on my ES just from solo AOE which is a big advantage over the PS. :P
If you can balence your style to use Soulless you can make 40-58 very easy as a PS. Probubly not as fast an an ES with the nice nuke Merrow has, but it is faster than many of the other classes. I suggest Enchanted Vally if you wanna solo with Soulless. However, as Mel mentioned Shadow in the catas works fine as well. I find Shadow's VR to be much more useful than Boxer or Kat's recharge in the upper lvls.
I wouldn't ditch your warlock to be a Phantom Summoner, play both and compare them yourself to see which you like. I am planning on making a warlock myself here soon, just to try it.
I must say, nightshade is the most useful party summon of all the summons, it completely trumps seraphim and queen. Last night in a rift I was the savior of the day because I would switch from being a DD with soulless to a healer with nightshade whenever our party's healers where low on mana. The sheer flexability of the PS is amazing. No other class can switch from being an effective healer/tank to a DD in the blink of an eye. Having a PS in your party will help smooth out any rough spots you might have.
In the end Gildran, I suggest you play whatever class you enjoy playing the most. Don't play a class just because you think it is the most powerful or most useful, play the class you will enjoy playing. Lineage II is a computer game, ment to be enjoyable, so pick a class you find enjoyable. :P
There is no set-way to playing any summoner class, I am sure you can mess with your Lock and find many different ways he can be useful, just as I have found that my PS can do many things you wouldn't expect him to be able to do well.
I would suggest continuing with your warlock - unless you want to be pretty useless at higher levels. With kat's recharge you basically have unlimited mp, so that compensates for the lack of VR.
Once you reach high levels, though, warlock will be very much sought after in PvP because of the crit rate / crit damage party buff. It'll be easy to find a good clan and you'll get invited to PvP / sieges / raids / etc, while the PS and ES only get asked to noblesse teleport somewhere, summon friend people and then soe to go back to there soloing.
Sure the PS will be "allowed" to come to those things, just as much as a TK, tyrant or a bounty hunter, but warlocks have a place in the FotM archer party: WC+BD+SdS+Warlock+Bishop+4 archers for raids (no tank needed) and scrap the bishop to add an OL or archer for pvp.
The warlock doesn't have a place in those parties, the cat does.
A warlock can expect their gameplay enjoyment to drop to the level of the worst buff***** in the game within seconds after reaching level 56 - or be the same as all other summoners while soloing.
And Seraphim is worth having in a group as well - unless of course you know you're not going to get rooted, stunned or silenced.
I solo rooms in cats/necro's just fine with my soulless and i dont have a boxed buffer or anything. Most people seem to forget about good ol' body to mind. Sure, it's only lvl 1 and only restores 22 MP, but when used regularly over the course of hunting, it adds a LOT to your mana regen. Hunting rooms in catas generally lets me go a full summon cycle with soulless before running into any MP issues at all. Then, if i dont feel like taking a snack break, i can just pull out shadow for a single buff round of MP regen before i'm full again (ty b2m again) and then go back to soulless. Also, if you use either of your PS cubics in a cat you will heal a LOT less while hunting, making it very easy to keep your soulless alive. I just wind shackle the patk resistant ones i encounter and its a piece of cake.
Also, I chose PS over warlock or ES because I enjoy partying and actually doing something. Being reduced to only buffing every 2 mins and not having the damage output of a BD to make it worth attacking was definitely not something I would have enjoyed for very long. The down side is that most people underestimate how useful a PS is in speeding up killing in a party. Your soulless is a very good DD and your Nightshade is awesome in parties. People seem to forget that Nightshade's debuff not only hates mobs off people, but also gives the mobs hex AND gloom. Oh did i mention that the Nightshade's debuff stacks with real hex and gloom? How about it stacking with your cubic too? Ok, so maybe I enjoy debuffs a little too much, but when you've got 3 levels of hex on a mob at once (nightshade, phantom cubic, actual hex from a player), the thing dies pretty freakin' fast.
The warlock doesn't have a place in those parties, the cat does.
A warlock can expect their gameplay enjoyment to drop to the level of the worst buff***** in the game within seconds after reaching level 56 - or be the same as all other summoners while soloing.
I'd disagree with that.
Sure, you'll be expected to provide the cat buff.. that goes without saying.
However, that dosent mean the warlock himself is now a useless peice of the party. The Arcane Lord's Warrior/Mage bane help alot in open field PvP fights.. (Warrior bane especially.. no WW and most people dont bring WW2 pots with em, who knows why)
In PvE binding cubic rocks well into your later levels.. open field, cat, dungeon, wherever. Warlock also puts out some damage... sure its nothing to brag home about compared to Archer or Dagger, but its there.
Just curious, since we have quite a few Phantom Summoners answering to this thread, what kind of weapons do you guys use? I am trying to max-out my dmg out-put while wearing heavy to keep arrgo off soulless and reduce healing. (Works really well) Right now I am using +7 sls*Tgu for crit attack. Would a dagger work better, or how about a 2h sword with HP SA? I have thought about using a bow, but decided that isn't a very viable option if I am going to be grinding with soulless. Maybe for shadow, but not soulless. Also thought about using a 1h sword or blunt with HP or focus so I can use use a shield to get a set bonus of as general addition to my defense. The Phantom Summoner clas just has so many options open as far as equipment goes. What have you guys been using?
i remember back in the day before beast shot, phantom summoners soloing ToI mobs with that summon that has passive VR and surprisingly fast, im not sure how they've change though ;-/
They still can. Shadow is mad love, but unlike the levelling summons preferred by warlock and elemental summoners takes 30% rather than 10% of total acquired exp: A very noticable hit.
I don't understand why they won't change them to 15% or something.. just like DA and WS summon.
Becouse summoners have 4 choices,when DA and WS has only 1. Summoners can choose 90%, 30% 10% or 5%(party) summon, deppends on needs and playstyle.
And i would fully disagree with Soulless being a useless summon. Maybe try to lvl with him on green mobs,not on yellow or even red. Then there are no problem to keep him alive. Till lvl 60 I lvled in feelds of massacre and allmoust allways had hull MP.
Necro's first PvE summon only take 15%.. the one they get at level 44.. that doesn't sound like a good reason for me, I tihnk they're just lazy and didn't fix it when they introduced the 10% summons.. almost no reason to use the 30% summons except for regenning MP. They're weaker and slower than the 10% ones too.. so what gives?
I could keep merrow or Kat alive just fine underground though - he is worthless as a servitor, which does not mean the summoner can't compensate, but rather that the summoner has to compensate.
Yes, the 30%er being dropped to 15% (or even 5% since they have weaker attack power than the 10%ers after all) would be a good move for sure.
Think of it like this: When you are in a party with someone, say a duo, you willlose about 45% of the experience gained to your party member. (There is an XP bonus for parties right?) Now, I don't know how much experience you have with grinding with summons, but you will get insane amounts of XP, even with the 30% summon. This is because your summoned party member only takes 5-30% rather than 45% like a normal party member. Also, I will tell you for a fact that Soulless does so much more damage than any pearson in your party can do, save a nuker. (But the nuker will run outta MP). Also, you are generally not sitting back and watching your servitor kill, you are right in there with him using duels or a dagger, or nuking at lower lvls. My summoner has about the same dmg out-put as a tank-class his lvl. So, you are getting all the dmg and benefits of a party member, at a greatly reduced cost.
30% is nothing to complain about, and 15% is a cause for celebration, and 10% should have you jumping up and down screaming, "I LOVE YOU l2 DEVS!!!!"
(If you use the 5% summon your are in a party, so it is kind a moot point)
EDIT: I don't know what your problem is miss, but I am soloing Witches catacombs with Soulless. I am lvl 61. I can clear a room and keep it basically cleared. Never having a problem with MP. Soulless is the freaking bomb, and I lvl so much faster with him, compared to Shadow. Please, don't be dissing Soulless, he is the MOST useful summon in MY demonic arsenal. Perhapes you need to try a different weapon/armor combo to use him correctly. I use Doom LA for mana regain and faster attack speed with +7 sls*Tgu duels.
. This is because your summoned party member only takes 5-30% rather than 45% like a normal party member.
Wrong thinking. Unlike a normal player, I don't contribute fully in our little duo, and unlike a normal player, the servitor is not a proper DD. SE and BD duo for example with SE hitting (just like a summoner might) will get better exp than a solo summoner (which is fine).
How is the servitor not a proper DD?
Not as nice as a fully buffed archer, destroyer, or dagger... a LOT better than a nuker period...
SE+BD will probably make more XP than the summoner+servitor alone.... but not by that much...
61 BD with 61 SE buffs has about 900patk and a 17% crit rate for a nice high crit damage mod and 600+ attack speed with a GSAP.
Soulless (level 60 summon so level 62 pet)has almost 1200 patk wth servitor buffs only. He will only have a 4% crit rate and no crit damage multipliers at only 370 atk speed.
Seriously, the PS alone will do very well for himself in comparison considering he is getting 90% of the XP out of that setup than the 55% of the BD/SE pair.
The SE/BD pair will have to kill almost TWICE as fast and while that is possible in theory, it isn't going to happen unless that pair can find a couple of large catacomb rooms that aren't camped 24/7 by bots or large alliances.
Finding a room that maxes the PS/Soulless's XP gaining isn't too difficult usually... finding a room that makes the most out of a BD/SE combo is a LOT harder.
Remember that the time the duo is gathering up (this isn't a two-box is it?) and wandering about trying to find a room the PS/Soulless is making XP.
Pretty darned nice considering that is ONE account, ONE character, and no one is being out-of-party or two-boxed!
Exactly Thal. Also, most players do have access to buffer pets (including myself). So while I can solo on my buffs alone and clear a catacomb room fully, when I get my SE buffs from my Boxed SE sitting just down the hallway... well, I think I kick the BD/SE combo's butt to be honest. Soulless is an indestructable machine in the catas with even VR lvl 1.
Because of course the self-buffed SE and the self-buffed summoner have the same damage output...
Of course if you enter a slaved buffer into the equation for yourself, you are looking at a different kind of experience - but then, you will have to split your experience in half as well.
Not exactly, you get 40% bonus for duo, so you both get 70% of what the mob would give you in solo. So if someone helps you by at least 30% you're better off with them than without.
There is little doubt the SE will do more damage than the PS without his servitor included... the thing is it doesn't matter...
The Buffed BD is going to eat that 4x mob pretty quickly, the Buffed SE will get in some damage, but let's face it isn't really gonna do that much more in comparison to the summoner because the mob (in both cases) is already dying pretty darned quickly. If you add in the "little bit of caution" usually required to play a melee healer to avoid AoE stunners, that amounts decreases even more.
Once again, the reality of playing these characters is different than just comparing numbers.
I will not argue that a BD + SE cannot possibly achieve better XP/hour than the Summoner alone. The power of the right buffs and especially that combination of buffs is undeniable.
The argument is that it doesn't usually happen that way in the actual game due to spawn limitations and in-game and social mechanics.
The argument is that it doesn't usually happen that way in the actual game due to spawn limitations and in-game and social mechanics.
I'd say it happens far more then you give credit for in all honesty.
I think most of us are at the point where we have a significantly high level red with Augmented or Shadow Weapons to clear out bots from Cat rooms. (Love those two features heh...)
Finding a hunting space when your not afraid to kill Xx0abc2 is about as easy as counting to 5.
Because of course the self-buffed SE and the self-buffed summoner have the same damage output...
Of course if you enter a slaved buffer into the equation for yourself, you are looking at a different kind of experience - but then, you will have to split your experience in half as well.
You miss understand... the buffer is out of party sitting down the hall while I am grinding away and getting 90% of XP. Buffer is getting nothing, just a buffer slave. ;)
So the summoner can alway get a perfect spot, but the BD/SE can't?
And yes, the damage is still significant if the SE doesn't have -8STR or something. Summoner damage is less significant due to lack of buffs.
Perfect? perhaps not... decent? yah...
but because the PS's potential kill rate is slower, and the BD/SE combo is splitting XP with a higher kill rate it is EASIER for the PS alone to find a spot that brings them to capacity.
Much easier to find a room no one has claimed when all you need is a smaller one than trying to find 1 large room or two smaller ones next to each other that aren't taken.
Note that the SE/BD pair can take the single smaller room as well... but then the PS kills just as fast and gets MORE XP because he doesn't have the wasted potential there.
Remember, if you can get the better spot... more power to you... SE/BD XPs just fine... the point was the PS does VERY well on their own and Souless is a solid DD.
Perfect? perhaps not... decent? yah...
but because the PS's potential kill rate is slower, and the BD/SE combo is splitting XP with a higher kill rate it is EASIER for the PS alone to find a spot that brings them to capacity.
Note that the SE/BD pair can take the single smaller room as well... but then the PS kills just as fast and gets MORE XP because he doesn't have the wasted potential there.
Exactly. You see, if the BD just gets SE buffs and lvls alone, his Dmg out-put will at best be equal to the Summoner and Soulless. However, a summoner with a good DD weap, and increased Patk and Dex will definatly out-shine the BD.
Also, in tight situations the BD will be in trouble if he gets too many arrgos or stunned. The PS, however, can use the stunning cubic, can heal, can windshackle, and also has Ultimate defense and Transfer pain to fall back on.
Now, if the BD is lvling WITH the SE in party, they will have to kill 35% more monsters to get the same XP that the PS is getting with his Summon. 35% is quite a bit, and normal situations only allow for one room as competition in the catas is usually nasty.
*shrugs* I think that the PS, Warlock, and ES are the definatly the best PvE classes and will lvl faster than any group save a pole.
Additionally, it should be noted that some summoners focus on party play more than solo play, so they will invest in robes and mage weaps with acumen to be as useful to a party as possible. They will also go the -8 str route to increase Dex and Con. Conversely, a soloer or someone who is intently focused on grinding, will go -8 Con to increase their Dex and Str, knowing that their summon will easily hold arrgo and will use a high-dmg weapon (ex: +7 sls*Tgu). They will also be wearing light armor, probubly a set that protects against paralysis or increases MP/MP regain for heals.
There are so many different ways to play this class, and depending on what your focused on (PvP solo, PvP party DD, PvP party assist, PvE solo, PvE party DD, PvE party assist, farming...) the summoner will be equiped very differently. So it really is a moot point to discuss how best to play a summoner. It is even kind of trivial to debate which summoner class is best. It totally depends on what kind of play style you are looking for, and how specific you will be to that play style. I am strictly a PvE soloer right now to increase my power/usefulness.
Yeah, if you go "out of group buffer" you sort of don't put another buffer in one of the groups if you want a fair comparison.
OOP SE buffs - do you really think the summoner can keep up with two DDs with an OOP buffer for exp gain? There are plenty of spots where two DDs can still keep killing at just about all levels, at least up to the low 7xs.
Seriously, it's good you're trying to argue for the strength of your class, but do so for some reason. To summarise:
Ironman Solo vs Duo: Buffed DD outdamages summoner-buffed Servitor, buffer outdamages summoner. There are perfectly fine places for either to hunt.
OOP Buffs Summoner vs Duo: Buffed DDs outdamage summoner and summon with ease. There are still perfectly fine places where a melee duo can hunt, and places for a buffed summoner to hunt as well.
You are twisting and shifting what you are talking about in the middle of things.
Please also remember that 'taking aggro' is hardly a good gauge for who is actually killing faster.
I'm fairly certain that I don't kill faster than a DA on my PP, but I still take aggro off them due to high frequency of crits done with a dagger.
I hope this is still helpfull. But on pts at the highest levels 76-77-78 Warlocks never sit on there *** anymore.
With mew and later king of cats which is down right a killer, u can confertably solo or dual in some of the hardest cats and areas like pagen or 4sep.
Stun cubic is god.
And if u happen to have the extra 80mil sp to get ur king of cat running, that little 80 level kitty makes all those lower levels of sitting back all worth the wait.
Slash, mass slash and my fav mass root attack are what too look forward to.
All of which moves a warlock up the food chain from a support to a 2nd rate melee in my opinion.
Pure solo, summoner is best
1 oop buffer, nuker + SE is best
WC+BD+SdS+WK oop buffers, HE is best
And warlock vs phantom summoner, diff is that once both are leveled up, everyone will want the warlock and the PS will not be very useful until he gets noblesse and can summon friend anywhere - something the warlock can also do.
Geee, didn't think this thread would be popular <.<
Anyway... I've played a PR with -8 CON for the past year. I am not used to having any sort of physical defense other than the ability to kill what wants me dead. I'm starting to realize that my summon isn't just another thing, it IS my weapon. It would be litterally impossible for me to ever get the damage power my summon has. So, it is not MY ability to kill I should be maximizing, it is my summon's. So, I have a couple of questions... What "type" of damage is summon's damage classified as? And what type of mobs are my summons the best counter to?
I think summons count as Blunt type physical damage, not sure if that is right in Interlude though.. so any weak physical defense is your best bet.
I subbed PS this weekend.. not really tried to use the summon much yet, it drains too much MP (in cata, fine in fields), but I heard it's much easier to keep mp up once I get higher level.. and don't have -10 MEN hehe
Anyways, OOP PP+SE+BD+ESummoner (reuse timer buff).. level 47 done in 1 hour 2-shotting Tribes on Alli Island lmao Too bad I don't always have that ability :<