Depends on what level really. At low levels the mage can probably win, but at high levels the dancer would for sure. You guys do realize one critical from one hit, of one of a dancer's swords with Prophet buffs + dances takes away about 3/4 of a mages CP...
In close range the bd will still have a chance,in open range nuker will win if he knows his class.A sh will slow him and kite him,and sps or sorc will cancel and kite him.A drac bow doesent help a bd much,if the mage stays of of his range.
If the mage is blind and doesn't see the BD until he's right next to him.. and arrest lands.. and he crits on every swing.. and interrupts the mages spells.. and the mage doesn't debuff him.. and the mage is out of CP pots.. then maybe the BD might win. Otherwise.. that's a dead BD.
The BD also has a pretty good chance if the mage either runs out of shots or forgets to turn them back on when he logs in.
Guys.. who we kidding here.. if the mage sees the BD at range, he's never even going to get within range to take a swing, much less have a chance to actually kill the guy.
If the bladedancer has access to the hierophants buffs and takes elemental protection and magic barrier, they an incredily good chance of winning.
It's happened to me, was hitting a tyrant for about 117 per spell (who was at most 5 levels above me) and was getting hit for over 500 on a normal melee attack and over 1000 on a crit.
the only time i ever lost a fight against a bd was when he had a +13 soul bow AND Arrest landed AND he crited every hit. (the first crit was for 1500 or something ><
Even then he had 300 hp at the end of the fight.
If the bladedancer has access to the hierophants buffs and takes elemental protection and magic barrier, they an incredily good chance of winning.
It's happened to me, was hitting a tyrant for about 117 per spell (who was at most 5 levels above me) and was getting hit for over 500 on a normal melee attack and over 1000 on a crit.
I reckon if we're going to assume the BD has end game buffs we should assume the mage does too.. how does the fight look if the mage has POW and Dance of Siren?
I'm sure his crits would be uber on a SPS, but how would hits crits look on a Necro with TP5. Fear lands oh so often now even on buffed targets it lands more often than most other mind spells.
I dueled a Dark Avenger 9 levels higher than me (I was 55 at the time, now 56) the other night and basically just nuked him down while I feared him everytime he got into range, which Reanimated man chasing/attacking him with BSS turned on. His panther was anchored and killed before the first fear wore off. The whole time I kept him Slowed/Feared/Weakened/Discorded. Everything landed very reliably. A Grade does nerf down Anchor a bit, though, cause I couldn't land that. Only about 1 in 10 landed. But fear is the new Anchor - it refreshes faster anyways. Lol.
At level 54 Anchor 3 landed on a level 78 Player in A Grade and he said "WTH?" Silence is also reliable. It's hard to kill a player when they have a servitor hitting you/critical blows/stuns and your damage is being nerfed down to 50%.
Would he even get in range of an SPS after he's surrendered and shot down by the machine gun? Vortex build-in debuff + high level mage cast speed?
I dunno know what a sorceror would do tho, they seem to be the mage with the least defenses (just slow?).
the only time i ever lost a fight against a bd was when he had a +13 soul bow AND Arrest landed AND he crited every hit. (the first crit was for 1500 or something ><
Even then he had 300 hp at the end of the fight.
Well, all the times in the past when I fought a BD I was never worried. Slow, nuke nuke and then dead.
I've never had arrest used on me so really haven't experienced it.
So if BD's are using this "Arrest" and fighting with Drac bows (when did this happen?) then "ok" I'll bite. Maybe they could take out a nuker.
But I just have no experience with either of this.
Even if the melee has a bow.. it doesn't matter. The only 2 possible exceptions are high lvl tyrants and gladis, and that's only because their high lvl ranged skills are good.
Even if the melee has a bow.. it doesn't matter. The only 2 possible exceptions are high lvl tyrants and gladis, and that's only because their high lvl ranged skills are good.
Didn't they add penalties to classes using bows who did not have masteries in them? Or am I wrong on that?
I thought the penalty was just to cast speed and destroyers. It doesn't much matter though because 900 range > 600 range... So unless it's a straight gank... which always gives the advantage to the ganker. The BD will be dead about the time he gets his 3rd shot off.
I'm a BD - 99% of the time against an equal level and equally buffed mage - I WILL lose regardless of arrest, attack speed etc etc. There are more spells available to a mage that can do some serious damage to a BD than available to a BD to damage the mage.
Pure luck in most cases is the only way the BD will win.
I thought the penalty was just to cast speed and destroyers. It doesn't much matter though because 900 range > 600 range... So unless it's a straight gank... which always gives the advantage to the ganker. The BD will be dead about the time he gets his 3rd shot off.
ROFL.. please.. this is just a stupid thread.
Like I said, the mage has to be dumb. If you can get them to flag while you are within melee range then you have a fighting chance. Arrest -> beat the crap out of them. Any range at all and you are screwed.
lol a really smart player who knows his toon will kill most any complete moron who just *cough* acquired *cough* his toon. Hell I could kill a mage that stupid with my dwarf.
But let's be realistic.. in a fair 1v1 (not a gank), relatively equal levels and buffs - the mage wins almost every time.
There are tons of scenarios we can make up where the BD might win, but in day to day play... dead BD.
I mean hell, maybe the mage just switched subs and forgot to equip his armor and weapon. LOL
Yep, that is kind of what I meant by high level. When they are high level, they get high level buffs. Divine protection + elemental protection take up two buff spots and provide a HUGE protection against mages. I've fought many dancers before, and if they do land arrest, I lose. If they have a focus bow, it is usually a fairly even match, depending on if they critical or not is what dertermines the outcome.
Yes, there happen to be high level BDs/Melee with A/SG armor and OE'd jewelry [and boss jewels] that render mages rather ineffective (and basically ignorable) with buffs.
That's the only thing I could think of that was stopping me from Anchoring that DA. We were grouped and even though I buffed him I didn't give him the likes of Mental Shield, etc :p, yet he resisted everytime - when other players with ~900 M.Def would not resist that often. I suspect Ant Queen ring (B Grade, -50 Para risist IIRC), Lol - that or some wicked Over Enchanted B/A grade jewels.
If they have a focus bow, it is usually a fairly even match, depending on if they critical or not is what dertermines the outcome.
To recap the scorecard...
If a BD uses non-traditional weaponry AND has favorable conditions/chance AND/OR external buffs while the nuker doesn't, then the BD wins?
Seems to me like we're really skewing the hypothetical advantages to one side. The instant that a BD equips a bow should be viewed as a concession of defeat in this debate.
Unless I just logged into the Bizarro world of L2, ceteris paribus , a nuker beats a BD.
Ok, maybe I was not clear in my post. If the dancer gets UNLUCKY and does not land criticals (which does happen) they will lose. Most of the time though, they will win.
External buffs? I was saying what would happen if they were both Prophet buffed, and I think I even gave a little extra to the mage factoring in SE buffs too. There are a ton of if's in PvP that can change the outcome, and I only listed one... there are a million things that could happen that could cause either one to lose. However, most of the time, the dancer at a high level will win, because as soon as the dancer gets close to the mage, they outdamage them by a lot.
Seems to me like we're really skewing the hypothetical advantages to one side. The instant that a BD equips a bow should be viewed as a concession of defeat in this debate.
Why a concession of defeat?
A bow is the primary PvP weapon, and **** near every class should have one (baring mages..).
In certain respects, they are extremely close to what a actual Archer could do damage wise. (BD that is, SWS too for example)
Its not our fault if there are a billion ways to keep out of Melee, and it just so happens that Range is better in all respects... is it? :)
Yeah, I see what you are saying, and you are right... but at high levels, they get close a lot, and with a lot of health left.
Yea I know, too many times i nuke a high level player 10 times for 6-800 adn they are still standing there, then anchor wears off and they are going through my CP/HP like a hot knife through butter, Lol.
Seems to me like we're really skewing the hypothetical advantages to one side. The instant that a BD equips a bow should be viewed as a concession of defeat in this debate.
Why a concession of defeat?
A bow is the primary PvP weapon, and **** near every class should have one (baring mages..).
In certain respects, they are extremely close to what a actual Archer could do damage wise. (BD that is, SWS too for example)
Its not our fault if there are a billion ways to keep out of Melee, and it just so happens that Range is better in all respects... is it? :)
It's a concession because the bow is not the BD's traditional weapon. This isn't a debate about an archer v. a nuker. The minute that a bow is used, a BD is no longer a BD. Doubt me? Try dancing with that bow equipped.
Now don't get me wrong, I grew up in rough neighborhoods, and I know that the only "fair" fight is the one that you win. I have no problems with that. It's amazing how many fights you win when you pick up a brick, or a stick, or a bat when the other guy is using only his fists and his God-given ability. But does that make the fight above board? No.
It's a concession because the bow is not the BD's traditional weapon. This isn't a debate about an archer v. a nuker. The minute that a bow is used, a BD is no longer a BD. Doubt me? Try dancing with that bow equipped.
So by your logic, a SWS can use a Bow right? Because a SWS can sing with any type of weapon... even though they get no masteries for it?
This isnt a game that prevents you from using certain weapons. You are free to use any weapon you wish, you are free to use any armor you wish. :)
It's just ridiculous how much everyone completely misses the entire point. With just 2 hierophant buffs on the bd, they can floor a mage's damage, and this is before they use aqua guard to indcrease their resistance to water attacks. Once they have an enourmous defense in place, they just have to chug healing potions until the mage inevitably dies.
Everyone is so caught up on cast speed or how they fare against mages when they have no buffs on at all, that they always forget that very potent defensive buffs are available to them. Surrender and vortexes are insignificant compared to these buffs. At most the mage will be hitting for 500.
If you don't belive me, go find a hierophant, get elemental protection and magic barrier(just keep in mind that elemental protection does not provide protection against a necro's spells or a spellhowler's dark attack type spells), go find a mage to duel, and just laugh at how little damage they do to you.
It's a concession because the bow is not the BD's traditional weapon. This isn't a debate about an archer v. a nuker. The minute that a bow is used, a BD is no longer a BD. Doubt me? Try dancing with that bow equipped.
So by your logic, a SWS can use a Bow right? Because a SWS can sing with any type of weapon... even though they get no masteries for it?
This isnt a game that prevents you from using certain weapons. You are free to use any weapon you wish, you are free to use any armor you wish. :)
I see your point. Clearly you've missed mine. Impasse? :D
It's just ridiculous how much everyone completely misses the entire point. With just 2 hierophant buffs on the bd, they can floor a mage's damage, and this is before they use aqua guard to indcrease their resistance to water attacks. Once they have an enourmous defense in place, they just have to chug healing potions until the mage inevitably dies.
Everyone is so caught up on cast speed or how they fare against mages when they have no buffs on at all, that they always forget that very potent defensive buffs are available to them. Surrender and vortexes are insignificant compared to these buffs. At most the mage will be hitting for 500.
If you don't belive me, go find a hierophant, get elemental protection and magic barrier(just keep in mind that elemental protection does not provide protection against a necro's spells or a spellhowler's dark attack type spells), go find a mage to duel, and just laugh at how little damage they do to you.
QFT.
The funny thing about it is that people are complaining about how overpowered mages are, when they can almost completely negate a mage's DD capabilities with buffs, but when a melee gets in melee range while running in resisting those spells/debuffs with boss jewels and buffs you can have a full bar of PP/EE defensive buffs and you'll still drop in no time as a mage.
I actually don't think arrows are that bad, I've been blocking them quite a bit lately. But, melee type damage is just insane compared to what a mage can do, IMO, when both toons are buffed adequately (almost all the time at high levels?). That is, unless the mage gets a rare crit. My high crit in arena today was 1.9k, on similar leveled/buffed melee players, and i didn't break his CP before he was able to move again. Ended up fearing him out of arena for my HP bar's sake.
If you bring boss jewels into it for melee then bring it in for mages too. Dont do a one sided sort of fight. Same goes for end game buffs. Its like saying a mage would own someone with no jewelry on. DUH!
BTW, not everyone has access to these items / buffs. I know for sure that I dont.
It's easy to get buffs, you can buy at least an ant queen jewel in giran for 400 mil, i've seen /vendor dorfs with 2-3 for sale.
Those items benefit melee alot more than they benefit mages because in order for a mage to beat a melee they have to both maintain range as well as be able to deal appropriate amounts of damage so they can kill the melee before they go OOM. Nuking for 300 means you will never win because hte melee will just spam CP pots until you go OOM. Not being able to slow/anchor/silence/etc. means the melee will get in range and kill you in 10 seconds or less.
You don't need boss jewels to resist mage debuffs, all you need is buffs.
Goto Aden and ask for buffs. Most of the buffers there are 7x and would be happy to help you. They are very friendly, at least on my server.
You can also goto Arena and there will be about 10 buffbots (PP/SE) 6x-7x happy to buff you. If you donate to them instead of just buffing and running (because most of the high level buffers are maxxed out on recs), you can get buffs 30 seconds after appearing by the gatekeeper.
I'm the only on that mentioned boss jewels. You really only need buffs to rendor a mage "ignorable". Boss jewels are just e-penii material, IMO.
And it's not like A grade armor set bonuses aren't good enough. 50% chance to resist para, etc. Players in A grade actually get suprised and say "WTH?!" when you land those types of spells on them. Good luck getting them to land a second time :)
LOL... you act like people totally plan out when they pvp. Ok I am going to schedule a fight in AL at 9pm at the Karik donut. Do you think you could meet me there so we can PvP? It doesnt work like that.
I would much rather look at it in totally realistic situations. Take for example the situation that I was faced with a few weeks ago. I was in frozen labrynth farming ice crystals off the yetis with my WC buff pet. A SH with a buff pet came along and starting killing my mobs, so I told them to leave. They totally ignored me, so I said it again. They ignored, so I decided I would go red or die trying.
At this point, I was buffed for pve. Yes magic barrier (dunno the orc buff name.. chant of flame? ) was on. I am sure they were buffed the same (obviously mage buffs instead). When I flagged, they flagged back. Each shot of theirs did roughly 800 dmg to me. Each hit I did was roughly 200 (not including crits). In this situation, I beat the mage because they were stupid and didnt get some distance before flagging back. I didnt have windwalk on, they did. I have no doubt in my mind that if the SH was smart, they could have easily killed me.
This is a REAL situation. Dont give me lame situations where everyone fully buffs with the exact buffs they need for the player they are about to fight. That is what you do in the arena.
Edit:
And it's not like A grade armor set bonuses aren't good enough. 50% chance to resist para, etc. Players in A grade actually get suprised and say "WTH?!" when you land those types of spells on them.
I just told you, run to monster race track and ask for buffs and see what you get. The PP/EE will give you a full set of DPS buffs as well as a full set of resist buffs. It's not hard to get buffs in this game where buffbots probably outnumber the active players in the game, Lol.
You don't need to be picky with your buffs, at high levels you have 21/22 slots and thsoe resist buffs will easily fit in there somewhere, right alongside your DPS buffs.
It's not your fault you didn't have Windwalk, Grocery store sells Haste potions for 1k and some change, which is a cheap +20 Speed and WW L2Day scrolls are extremely cheap and useful when grinding for extended periods of time (anything is, except Empower - always expensive).
That's a real situation.
High level players know they have enemies (clan war, people who just don't like them, etc.) so they are almost always buffed.
Just because some noob decided to go grind without resist buffs doesn't mean that is the norm. I see my spells hitting for 160-300 on a daily basis on similarly geared players with top jewels and resist buffs.
I never said a BD wears DC, I was talking about melee vs caster in general. Where is my caster set bonus to resist melee skills 50%? 50 minutes ago when i was in arena with full PP/SE and some EE buffs they were still hitting me for 1500-3900 with their skills even though I was nukign them for 496... You get my point?
You use Curse: Gloom (It Lands)
You use Anchor. (It lands)
RandomDagger: o.O
Cast Death Spike 3x - 496 dmg or less each! WOOT!
RandomDagger: Keep Going You're almost there...
Cast Death Spike - Crit for 1.9k
Anchor Lets go!
RandomDagger: LAWL! 50% CP!
(Anchor Casting Slow with Avadon + Homu/Acu + Magic Haste Potion, as always, Dagger running fast, as always)
RandomDagger hits you for 3909 damage.
<Clicks "To Village">
Most people don't go out with resist buffs, that is true. But any character that can get elemental protection and divine protection should always have it, always. Not having those two buffs is like running around without shield. It's two buffs that take away a huge amount of damage, from many different characters. That is why I said at a high level, the dancer would win, because that is when those buffs come in to play
I just told you, run to monster race track and ask for buffs and see what you get. The PP/EE will give you a full set of DPS buffs as well as a full set of resist buffs. It's not hard to get buffs in this game where buffbots probably outnumber the active players in the game, Lol.
Yes... I run to the race track every 20 min to get those resist buffs.....Riiiiiight.
You don't need to be picky with your buffs, at high levels you have 21/22 slots and thsoe resist buffs will easily fit in there somewhere, right alongside your DPS buffs.
If my clan was in the same lvl range as me and doing raid bosses alot then maybe. I always drop off the resist buffs in favor of more pve related buffs. In short, yes I could have all the resist buffs, but its not likely that I will have them all the time.
It's not your fault you didn't have Windwalk, Grocery store sells Haste potions for 1k and some change, which is a cheap +20 Speed and WW L2Day scrolls are extremely cheap and useful when grinding for extended periods of time (anything is, except Empower - always expensive).
Yeah... I know I could have those pots easy. So what? I was making a point that the SH was stupid.... which is why they died.
High level players know they have enemies (clan war, people who just don't like them, etc.) so they are almost always buffed.
I am neutral ATM, so I dont have to be paranoid all the time. Natural pvp does happen, as in the situation I gave earlier.
Just because some noob decided to go grind without resist buffs doesn't mean that is the norm. I see my spells hitting for 160-300 on a daily basis on similarly geared players with top jewels and resist buffs.
I would like to see how many people actually go out with resist buffs every time they go grinding. Just because YOU or YOUR CLAN go out with resist buffs all the time, doesnt mean that EVERYONE does or CAN.
I never said a BD wears DC, I was talking about melee vs caster in general. Where is my caster set bonus to resist melee skills 50%? 50 minutes ago when i was in arena with full PP/SE and some EE buffs they were still hitting me for 1500-3900 with their skills even though I was nukign them for 496... You get my point?
you have mage sets that give you 15% cast speed. and a mage weapon that gives you 15% cast speed. and mage buffs that give you 15% cast speed (i think). The reason I said BD is because this is a thread specifically about BDs vs Mages. I guarantee those skills you were getting hit by were not from a BD.
Anchor still has a 600 range and a fast class like a dagger can be in melee range and interrupt that becuase it casts twice slower than a nuke. I checked the passives and it doesn't look like cast speed is going to be that much faster at higher levels.
Cast speed means nothing when you are hitting for less than 500 damage on someone who is popping CP pots and almost completely negating it, and then go OOM tyring to kill them while they run in melee range and "one-round" you. Yes, the cast speed owns, but unlike melee, we are useless without mana and I wouldn't even waste the cash popping CP pots while a melee is hitting me (i.e. in my face). Actually, I wouldn't get the chance to, I'd be dead.
The effect of Acumen on PvP is much less than the effect of Para resist, Mind and Resist buffs. With those buffs and Set Bonuses, it doesn't matter how fast the mage casts, you're still gonna get in his/her face sooner or later and pwn him because his damage will be CP-pot negatable.
If I was the SH and I was willing to fight back I would just killed you when I seen you hunting there (that's what I do, why fuss when you can just end it before any words are said, /block for when u wanna talk **** on the ground).
I joined a clan with similar levels as me, choice is one of the perks of playing this game :) The resist buffs are easy to come by, Resist Wind from my SE and other resists from randome PP/EE. Buffs for drops!
Everyone CAN go out with resist buffs everytime they go grinding. If you have enough energy to stop to a PP and ask for BTB/Acumen/Zerk/whatever you can get a resist buff there. Same for SE and EE. People are acting like they have to jump through hoops and bounds to get buffs when all they have to do is port into a city by the gatekeeper and say "buffs please". Jeeze. Most people use macros for buffbots and give you everything in one shot. You don't even have to specify.
I did it for 54 levels and did well. My SE is only two weeks old, and it doesn't even cut into your time that much.
If you choose to grind unbuffed that is fine, but for 4 buffslots in adition to all the other buffs (there are some buffs that a melee don't need that a nuker does and vice versa), I never pass them up.
I asked you earlier to point me to set bonus that lets me resist melee skills, have you found it yet?
Pound for pound, it takes far less buffs to make a Nuker effective. Thats a given, correct? (Emp, Acumen, Zerk and your about as good as it gets!)
yes and likely to always be on.
Pound for pound, it takes far less buffs to neutralize a Nuker as well.
yes and not likely to always be on.
Dont both those statements kinda make sense? I mean, to hit good damage as a Archer, you need 4 support toons in a party.
Even a Gladiator needs a fair amount of support. (Which is the class I beleive the poster above is talking about..that or a Tyrant/Destroyer)
yes
My point was that in an absolute natural situation (normal lvling buffs for each char) the BD should lose nearly 100% of the time. Buffed with specific buffs for fighting the specific class you are fighting, it becomes more of a toss up (note this goes both ways).
Pound for pound, it takes far less buffs to make a Nuker effective. Thats a given, correct? (Emp, Acumen, Zerk and your about as good as it gets!)
Pound for pound, it takes far less buffs to neutralize a Nuker as well.
True, but then since it takes more buffs for a fighter to do damage, it should take a lot of buffs to defend agains them, right? They really don't have buffs to defend against fighters besides shield and greater shield, which are not that great...
ok for one, with self buffs lets see
more pdef, patk
dances add lets see umm p atk, atk spd, protect water (only is sps), crit damage (yeah drac bow/ focus), accuracy
sooo thats 5 dances that up our attack/protect
with focus mind 6 you better be able to hold 4 dances, or i mean somethings wrong
+6 armor (not that rare) and you have even more MP to play with
sooo thats 4-5 dances which you only need to do once cause if ur not dead within 2 mins or they arent (against a nuker in most cases) then yeah just stop
assuming you dont have -8 or 9 CON then by the time you reach the nuker you will have tons of CP/HP left unless you have no pots
and even with -8 CON you should
soo now you have time to unlease arrest and one or 2 other spells that you like and beat on them a bit while popping CP pots and the likes
arrest wears off, heres ur bow with 1.5 mins left on dances
i mean honestly its completely up in the air if both people know how to play their characters and do it well
money is an option cause of armor/jewls/pots/weapon
but i mean a normal player versus another normal player that didnt max out 4 credit cards should be evenly matched
imo at higher levels (70+) its not about the class in nuker vs BD with self buffs
its about the skill cause one can easily over take the other if played properly
and yeah just watch some of Noa's stuff
i mean he never lands arrest ....or uses a bow
he just walks up and beats things with his swords
... >.>
played properly its all about skill and luck, not "oh i am a nuker you BD's stand no chance"
in reality we do stand a chance and do come out on top sometimes
Pound for pound, it takes far less buffs to make a Nuker effective. Thats a given, correct? (Emp, Acumen, Zerk and your about as good as it gets!)
Pound for pound, it takes far less buffs to neutralize a Nuker as well.
True, but then since it takes more buffs for a fighter to do damage, it should take a lot of buffs to defend agains them, right? They really don't have buffs to defend against fighters besides shield and greater shield, which are not that great...
well.... sorta....
shock resist
bless shield
advanced block
shield
greater shield
invigor (yes i know... who bleeds?)
agility
chant of revenge / freezing skin / blazing skin
song of earth
song of water
song of vengence
Puhlease.. BD's are not known for their innate ability to kill mages.. there's a reason for that.
Let's recap.
We can identify at least 5 or 10 scenario's where the BD will beat the mage, specifically if he knows which resists to get ahead of time, especially 2 that are lvl 76+. Also if he ganks the mage, or has a fecking Drac bow w/ Focus and [censored] boss jewels.
LMAO you bunch of diots.
OK.. so let's see..
The BD has a chance of killing the mage if he is 76+, with at least 1 or 2 buffers handy that are 76+, and if he gets the drop on the mage.
WELL [censored]!!
That must mean BD's kill mages all the **** time.
ROFL.. Morons.
What about the other 75 levels? What about the mage that's also pimped out in S grade with boss jewels and also has end game buffs.. you know the one's where they crit about 1 of 4 shots, and where their debuffs land at a high rate?
oh well [censored] that doesn't count, we're talking about an S grade BD with end game buffs vs a mage that's out PvEing???
**EDIT**
OH, you forgot.. if the BD is a hero, then he'll prolly win cuz of his hero fear and hero UD. LOL idiots.
Boss jewels do jack [censored] for a mage. Except for buffs that increase casting speed, buffs do little to increase mage effectiveness (until the level 76+ ones which increase casting speed and the chance a spell will crit) whereas just a few of the right physical attack related buffs greatly increase those classes effectiveness, and this is being topped by the bladedancers own songs which stack with these buffs. As well, all the bladedancer needs on the defensive buff related side are 2-4 buffs and can all be buffed by a prophet, if only elemental protection requires a hierophant. And if you have a hierophant available, you can guarantee that you will have access to every other defensive buff you need from magic barrier to unholy resistance to holy resistance, and none of these buffs can be removed with a surrender spell.
So what if this requires one hierophant buff for anything other than a necromancer, the fact of the matter is that such a buff does exist, and if you aren't boxing your prophet you will eventually gain access to it. The other level 75 levels bend to the mage in admission that after level 76 the mage will be completely ***** by a properly buffed opponent or any opponent they fight in the olympiad.
Boss jewels do jack [censored] for a mage. Except for buffs that increase casting speed, buffs do little to increase mage effectiveness (until the level 76+ ones which increase casting speed and the chance a spell will crit) whereas just a few of the right physical attack related buffs greatly increase those classes effectiveness, and this is being topped by the bladedancers own songs which stack with these buffs. As well, all the bladedancer needs on the defensive buff related side are 2-4 buffs and can all be buffed by a prophet, if only elemental protection requires a hierophant. And if you have a hierophant available, you can guarantee that you will have access to every other defensive buff you need from magic barrier to unholy resistance to holy resistance, and none of these buffs can be removed with a surrender spell.
So what if this requires one hierophant buff for anything other than a necromancer, the fact of the matter is that such a buff does exist, and if you aren't boxing your prophet you will eventually gain access to it. The other level 75 levels bend to the mage in admission that after level 76 the mage will be completely ***** by a properly buffed opponent or any opponent they fight in the olympiad.
Foxie, he said that Boss Jewels don't really add any surviveability to a mage class. Mages are usually the ones trying to paralyze you (Necros) or Silence you (Necro/SH) or Slow you (All of them), etc. Of course there is stun resist, but it does not good when you resist the stun but the arrow hits for 4.5k, anyways.
All in all, I agree with both he and you, though. Buffers are not a comodity in this game. I was actually suprised how easy it was to get buffed in this game, compared to EQ (they want donations, buffs for free doesn't exist there). I mean, hell, I get buffed while I'm AFK 90% of the time I'm standing arount the GK in Dion, Giran, or Oren with 7x buffs.
Even if you don't have a buffbot, getting the buffs is extremely trivial. At least SOMEONE in your clan will have a buffbot (I bring my SE, he brings his PP).
The only thing my clan doesn't have is an EE, but I will level one just for kicks when I get my third computer up and running (laptops expensive to fix).
Let's only say that each one will win depending more of the situation than anything. If the bd is far and don't have bow, it's dead, if bd is close, poor mage, if bd has bow well at least now it has a chance. A lot of ifs...
Funny.. I thought there was a boss jewel or two that helped resist arrest landing.. a little extra cast speed never really hurts does it?? Sure, they don't add as much, but they most certainly still add.
You complete *******es are still trying to argue that BD's own mages???
my sub is only mid 50's, which one of you moron's cares to grab a mid 50's BD and face off??
ohhh I get it, for the BD to have an inkiling of a chance, they need buffs from a 78 PP, boss jewels, and a drac bow w/ focus. Well [censored], that's like every BD I know.
Let's only say that each one will win depending more of the situation than anything. If the bd is far and don't have bow, it's dead, if bd is close, poor mage, if bd has bow well at least now it has a chance. A lot of ifs...
You forgot one...
If the BD is below lvl 76 and doesn't have buffs from a 78+ Heirophant.
Until the BD reaches lvl 76+, has access to 78+ prophet buffs, a Drac bow w/ focus, and boss jewels - he is dead meat to a mage. Once he gets those little bitty items though, then he has a pretty good chance of winning.
or
In the olympiad, where all the rules are borked, and no class sucks worse than a mage, the BD will usually win unless the mage gets lucky.
lol.. I box a BD and an SE. You won't stand a chance, but I'll leave out the BD and just go with SE buffs.
A mid 50's BD can't even outdamage the CP pot chug rate. You do realize that at that level I'm going to 4 shot you right, and if fear or slow land that you are instantly dead? Having tested it, fear lands about 50%, so I suppose you do have that going for you.
I'd give it a shot with a BD using BoP & +4 Tsu*SLS.
Deja vu? I've had that battle before on my SH. Once with a BD that was in A grade gear while I was level 57 or 58 (I forget which). The BD took the dirt nap each time.
I agree with 'Hands. If you're going to give a BD every conceivable advantage, sure, he should win. But more times than not, a mage should be the last one standing of the two, if you are going to discuss this hypothetical fairly.
lol.. I box a BD and an SE. You won't stand a chance, but I'll leave out the BD and just go with SE buffs.
A mid 50's BD can't even outdamage the CP pot chug rate. You do realize that at that level I'm going to 4 shot you right, and if fear or slow land that you are instantly dead? Having tested it, fear lands about 50%, so I suppose you do have that going for you.
Gustin.
Bartz here.
Fear landing depends entirely upon the M.Def of the character, and since you have absolutely no clue what jewels the BD in question has, I woudnt be so quick to start spoutin off as if you know jack sh*t now would I? :)
I'd be suprised if you crack 500 damage, and since I run with a G15, good luck ever getting past the CP bud.
This is all a matter of proper preparation. For such a buff driven game (and a bladedancer is a buff driven class), it stands to reason you will lose when going unbuffed against a class which is designed to function with minimal or no buffs. And when you have the proper buffs that the designers created specifically for your class to have and created the game around having, the tables are reversed.
Boss jewels are not needed for a bladedancer to kill a mage. Elemental protection is not needed either (although it helps a lot). Magical barrier is an easy to get and very effective buff which does no require a hierophant. Unholy resistance which provides good protection against dark magic is easily received from the same prophet who gave you magical barrier. This is very effective way to trivialize a necro's spells. A mage without a hierophant is a little harder if you aren't willing to go fishing for a swordsinger to get song of warding and the song that protects against the specific magic of the mage you will be fighting. But it doesn't mean it is impossible, and when it is a spellsinger, you already have water guard.
lol.. I box a BD and an SE. You won't stand a chance, but I'll leave out the BD and just go with SE buffs.
A mid 50's BD can't even outdamage the CP pot chug rate. You do realize that at that level I'm going to 4 shot you right, and if fear or slow land that you are instantly dead? Having tested it, fear lands about 50%, so I suppose you do have that going for you.
Gustin.
Bartz here.
Fear landing depends entirely upon the M.Def of the character, and since you have absolutely no clue what jewels the BD in question has, I woudnt be so quick to start spoutin off as if you know jack sh*t now would I? :)
I'd be suprised if you crack 500 damage, and since I run with a G15, good luck ever getting past the CP bud.
QFT.
I was dueling in arena with a B Grade BD, both of us were buffed PP/SE, and I couldn't land any debuffs other than gloom on her. I was hitting her for sub 500 and she was dancing dots and debuffs that were further eating me alive and lowering my M.Atk.
Slow, Fear, Anchor, Weakness, Poison, Chaos, etc.
All resisted 100% of the time.
Me, dead everytime.
This is with both of us starting at opposite corners of the arena (i.e. > 900 Range). I simply could not beat her, ever.
78+ buffs not required.
With same buffs I had a lvl 50 gladiator resist Gloom, Anchor, Slow, and Fear and own me in about 3 seconds with his skills (again, starting at opposite ends of the arena i.e. > 900 range) - and I had Transfer Pain 3 on with servitor sitting outside arena right next to me. The only way I could beat him was to hope Cursed Man's stun landed. There was just no chance at the BD, she owned me everytime, even killing my cursed man before finishign me off (and he was buffed also - but stun never landed).
lol.. I box a BD and an SE. You won't stand a chance, but I'll leave out the BD and just go with SE buffs.
A mid 50's BD can't even outdamage the CP pot chug rate. You do realize that at that level I'm going to 4 shot you right, and if fear or slow land that you are instantly dead? Having tested it, fear lands about 50%, so I suppose you do have that going for you.
Gustin.
Bartz here.
Fear landing depends entirely upon the M.Def of the character, and since you have absolutely no clue what jewels the BD in question has, I woudnt be so quick to start spoutin off as if you know jack sh*t now would I? :)
I'd be suprised if you crack 500 damage, and since I run with a G15, good luck ever getting past the CP bud.
Cool, it will go well with my G15.
It's unfortunate we won't get to try it out, I'd eat you for breakfast. btw - I'm subbed SH.
Fear landing depends on more than just mdef btw ;)
Sounds to me like you're talking out your ***. I've seen many, many more BD's die at the hands of a mage than I have ever seen BD's kill mages.
rofl.. please.
This thread gets my vote for stupidest of the month.
Necklace of Valakas
MP: +42
HP: +445 <---- thats a fair chunk
P. Atk: +4%
M. Atk: +8% <-- owe
Magic Crit: +100% <---- holy crap
Reflect Damage: 10% <---- owe
Fire Resistance: +15%
Sleep Resistance: +80%
Re-use Delay Decrease: 10% <----- >.<
Sounds pretty good to me. Then again... wth do I know.
Ring of Baium
MP: +21
Resistance to Poison: 80%
Resistance to Hold: 60% <---- not bad
Accuracy: +2
Critical Damage: +15%
Attack Speed: +4%
Casting Speed: +4% <---- more cast speed?
I dont know any serious L2 player who dosent have a 2nd account with a Prophet (if Melee) or SE (if Mage) dragging around behind them.
I have a WC, not a prophet. WC > proph for melee.... which is what we are talking about here.
I was dueling in arena with a B Grade BD, both of us were buffed PP/SE, and I couldn't land any debuffs other than gloom on her. I was hitting her for sub 500 and she was dancing dots and debuffs that were further eating me alive and lowering my M.Atk.
you say B grade, but dont say the lvl of the BD. I see lots of BDs that stay in B grade because it works just fine. I was in D grade to 52... does that mean that if a lvl 20 mage were to fail a magic attack on me that they couldnt land crap on a D grade BD?
All you people saying "oh its not so hard to get buffs. Just shout in town"... Seriously, do you soe to town before any pvp? I know I dont. Im also not going to soe to town just to get resist buffs when I have a WC in party.
I agree with Bigs... this whole arguement is BS. Stop comparing apples to oranges. If you add top lvl buffs to the BD then add them to the mage too. If you add boss jewels to the BD then add boss jewels to the mage.
Just remember that 76+ is only 4/80ths of the game.
/agree
Nukers are only good for gank squads in PVP and thats about it
1 dancer, and 8 nukers all buffed up = killer gank squad
Most of what i see used most often in large PVP clans is just nukers cause you can send out a spy and then bring a part or 2 of nukers and destroy ur war'd clans.
And yeah dude rofl gustin :P
Come over to bartz, and ill show you how my BD rocks you at PVP 1 on 1 nothing but self buffs.
No buff pets, no OOP COV or WM, nothing.
Heres how it goes.
Im out hunting PVE and a nuker is out hunting PVE form a warred clan.
No buffpets cause we both just needed that 1 more quest item that we needed badly.
We both accidently run into each other and only have out self buffs.
More often than not, that nuker is dead on the ground and im saying "gf".
Screw the WHAT IF.... end game buffs .....+10 jewls ....ebay
Fact is in this game, most people have at one time or another bought adena and their gear with that adena off sites.
Self buffs and same level (or close to it) i CAN take out almost everyone cept a necro. Now i do die here and there cause there are more skilled players out there than me, and ill admit that.
70+ straight PVP with self buffs is 90% skill IMO.
Dont be coming into an intellectual fourm saying that ur level 50 SH can take out any C grade BD.
Play ur SH to S grade and come back and we'll see how well ur holding up against the S grade BD's.
Seeing as how i was level 50 for all of ohh 3 hours, didnt have much time to PVP that much, so i cant speak for B/C grade BD's vs Nukers.
Most GOOD PVP is 70+ anyway.
Oh and just cause you box a BD for the dances, doesnt mean you know anything about the class or how to play it, it just means that you have a buff pet and know how to hit the "dance of ..." button every 2 min's.
There are 2 valakas necklaces in existance. Surprisingly few antharas jewels too. The only true mage jewel that is in good supply on most servers is Frintezza. But then again, a BD with a frintezza is going to have a much better shot against any nuker other than SPS.
Regardless, any class can beat any other class at some point in time. My BH can routinely beat BDs as they just do not have the Pdef to outlast my HP/CP. I've always thought of BDs are fairly fragile toons overall. Poor patk, minimal pdef(no masteries after 40) arrest is a nice touch to help them, but otherwise still fairly fragile.
your right..... wild magic and dance if siren probably dont effect that either right?
ok once AGIAN
SELF BUFFS only i will own you
NO Wild Magic, NO Dance of Siren (for nukers)
NO COV, Greater Might and all those for the BD
i didnt say it added nothin, i was just clarifying for the people who might get confused, cause i personally know people who thought that +100% crit meant that you would literally crit 100% of the time
bartz is not the only server out there
i never said it was, im just saying dont go saying that 4/80's of the game is 76+ for the WHOLE game, say for gustin or teon or where ever you might be at the moment
however over on bartz, much much much more of the game is 76+ than 4/80's
all you are doing is bringing up points that were allready covered (high end buffs vs self buffs) and trying to attack me cause i play on bartz
bring me a valid point and then we will talk
Just remember that 76+ is only 4/80ths of the game.
Nice try. But 76+ is more like 40/80ths of the game.
So half of the population across all servers is 76+? I dont believe it.... since there are a total of 33... yes 33 lvl 80s. If anything, it would be more like 4/40ths or 1/10th of the game.
Sounds to me like you're talking out your ***. I've seen many, many more BD's die at the hands of a mage than I have ever seen BD's kill mages.
You mean the other 10 people that play on Gustin too?
Woot.... you rock boy!
Welcome to Interlude, enjoy your stay.
Way to admit that you've lost the argument.
Thank you, come again.
I don't see how you can argue fear land rate when I'm in arena Glooming and trying to fear BDs my level or higher all day every day for hours. With a resist buff or two, good luck fearing anyone. There is no argument to be had about this.
ok so yeah maybe the XP it takes to get to S grade is 4/80th of the game (....why not 1/20th, is beyond me)
HOWEVER the amount of time spent 76+ is waaaay more than 1/20th of the time spent playing the game ....at least in my experience and on Bartz server (im not speaking for all servers so dont go acting like i am)
but you cant shoot down my arguments that on the server i play that BD's can take out nukers, you dont play on this server, you dont know and havent seen the amount of S graders maybe, for whatever reason you obviously dont know about 76+ gameplay on a massive level
also, whoever said there are just a few level 80's .....noone ever said level 80's fighting we said 76+
76-80 is like a whole chronicle + worth of grinding, however getting 76, isnt all that unreasonable to reach
Sounds to me like you're talking out your ***. I've seen many, many more BD's die at the hands of a mage than I have ever seen BD's kill mages.
You mean the other 10 people that play on Gustin too?
Woot.... you rock boy!
Welcome to Interlude, enjoy your stay.
Way to admit that you've lost the argument.
Thank you, come again.
I don't see how you can argue fear land rate when I'm in arena Glooming and trying to fear BDs my level or higher all day every day for hours. With a resist buff or two, good luck fearing anyone. There is no argument to be had about this.
I call BS. On pts I was playing a BD (obviously with S jewels) with buffs and was getting feared out of the arena left and right. I think those "equal lvl" players are not really your lvl at all.
Necklace of Valakas
MP: +42
HP: +445 <---- thats a fair chunk
P. Atk: +4%
M. Atk: +8% <-- owe
Magic Crit: +100% <---- holy crap
Reflect Damage: 10% <---- owe
Fire Resistance: +15%
Sleep Resistance: +80%
Re-use Delay Decrease: 10% <----- >.<
Sounds pretty good to me. Then again... wth do I know.
Ring of Baium
MP: +21
Resistance to Poison: 80%
Resistance to Hold: 60% <---- not bad
Accuracy: +2
Critical Damage: +15%
Attack Speed: +4%
Casting Speed: +4% <---- more cast speed?
I dont know any serious L2 player who dosent have a 2nd account with a Prophet (if Melee) or SE (if Mage) dragging around behind them.
I have a WC, not a prophet. WC > proph for melee.... which is what we are talking about here.
I was dueling in arena with a B Grade BD, both of us were buffed PP/SE, and I couldn't land any debuffs other than gloom on her. I was hitting her for sub 500 and she was dancing dots and debuffs that were further eating me alive and lowering my M.Atk.
you say B grade, but dont say the lvl of the BD. I see lots of BDs that stay in B grade because it works just fine. I was in D grade to 52... does that mean that if a lvl 20 mage were to fail a magic attack on me that they couldnt land crap on a D grade BD?
All you people saying "oh its not so hard to get buffs. Just shout in town"... Seriously, do you soe to town before any pvp? I know I dont. Im also not going to soe to town just to get resist buffs when I have a WC in party.
I agree with Bigs... this whole arguement is BS. Stop comparing apples to oranges. If you add top lvl buffs to the BD then add them to the mage too. If you add boss jewels to the BD then add boss jewels to the mage.
Just remember that 76+ is only 4/80ths of the game.
what happens when the BD wears those jewels?
Why arest the mage hitting you for 400 dmg when u have to get 150 range from them anywanys, and can drop them in 5 seconds.
If you can get that close to a mage, congratulations, you have won the match.
Reflect damage against a mage, resist hold (Anchor).
HP +445 isn't all that good, mages have crap for PDef so that's 1 hit at high levels. I see B grade melee hitting me with regular hits for over 200, I'm sure an A/S grade BD will hit me for at least that, maybe upwards of twice that since a warlock summon was hitting me for 455 yesterday (7x summon, Kai the Cat). Wow, 445 HP, I get to live another .3 seconds before the BD owns me.
You can buy Ant Queen ring and get resist to hold on it. I think that one is 40 or 50% and it's a B Grade jewel. Like I said, multiples on same /vendor in Giran on Bartz. And I think they get a bit more out of the attack speed than a nuker gets out of the cast speed. Especially when you're hitting for 300-500 dmg a nuke (not counting interrupts/stun/etc.).
The BD was level 57, I am level 56 - Happy?
I could own her without buffs (Anchor/Fear/etc. always land) but with buffs, no, I was as good as dead the minute I stepped into the arena. Hell, she even agreed to start in opposite corners (about 1150 range between us that way) and still ran right up and ended it in abotu 5 seconds. She owned me, plain and simple. I'm not mad :P I'm just saying that melee can get buffs and own us, but there are no buffs that I know of that will stop her from owning me the way I'd own her without buffs.
And yes, I know 76+ is only 4/80ths of the game - which is why I felt compelled to comment on this thread even though I'm only level 56 :)
At evey level of the game, nukers are nuetralized by buffs.
Whether or not you choose to get them is your problem, just don't cry overpowered and for a brez when u get ganked, anchored, silenced, feared, gloomed, surrendered, 1 shot by a nuker when it's really trivial to make them hurt less than a level 60 mob even at level 80.
P.S. And since 76+ is only 4/80ths of the game, I'm sure I'll be walkign around with my Baium/Valakas/Ant Queen/etc. jewels tomorrow :) It's already been stated that the jewels are not required, and even on a nuker, some HP doesn't help that much. I can get a HP Staff and get almost that HP and similar MAtk if it's OE'd enough (1.5k+ M.Atk buffed at my level, so much for fear landing 50% eh?). Melee rarely paralyze nukers (unless necro, but then again they always resist anchor with buffs and if they have those jewels). Buffs > any nuker in L2. It's just that simple.
And it's okay, cause in EQ Necros have the most horrible resist adjust on their spells (like -100, -50, -200) that make them almost unresistable with average gear, but once you got to high level you found out that you were one of the gimpest classes in PvP becuase you couldn't even beat a warrior (trivial to defeat if they don't resist, but resist everything with buffs/high end gear). Good luck lifetapping (basically Vampiric Claw in EQ) a warrior quadding you (4 hits per round/swing) for 4-600 dmg a hit (16-2400 dmg a quad/round), esp when they're using an UD-type skill and resisting half of them anyways :)
HOWEVER the amount of time spent 76+ is waaaay more than 1/20th of the time spent playing the game ....at least in my experience and on Bartz server (im not speaking for all servers so dont go acting like i am)
With your play style sure. not everyone plays to lvl all the time. Some people stay at lower lvls on purpose. Believe it or not, but there are some of those people on YOUR server. Not all or even a majority of pvp takes place at 76+. PvP takes place all over the map at all lvl ranges. Saying that 19/20ths of the PvP is at 76+ is 100% untrue.
Not all or even a majority of pvp takes place at 76+
correct me if im wrong, but i never said that the majority of PVP took place at 76+
...oh no dont, ill just repost what i said
Most GOOD PVP is 70+ anyway.
By good i mean that one class hasnt gotten some kick *** skills ealry in the game and the other has to wait till end game ish to get his cool skills.
Hence me saying that 70+ PVP is 90% skill
Most if not all classes have most of their good skills at this point and therefore it is more about skill and not just "oh i picked a toon that gets cool skills ealry and you picked one that gets them late, therefore i win."
If you are saying that a C grade nuker could take out a BD, i agree.
Early B grade, i agree.
Late B grade, ehh the BD is starting to be able to kick some *** in PVP.
Early A grade, things are looking more positive for that BD.
Late A grade, pretty good chance that the battle could go either way.
S grade, 50/50.
No buffpets, no nothing, just straight up self buffed PVP.
If you havent been on either end of the PVP in late A grade or S grade, then you cannot possilby comment on what i am talking about when i say that a BD could kick a nukers ars in PVP.
No matter how much you have been told or watching video's of.
Skill takes over in the higher levels and not just mashing ur super powerful nuke.
Higher Level = more CP/HP = you can get closer to that nuker as they are bashing you and then land root and take them DOWN.
You wanna stay C or B grade forever thats fine, as long as your having fun, who cares.
However dont come in making comments about low level PVP saying that a BD could never take out a nuker cause of what you have experienced or seen in B grade toons.
Once again, come to Bartz and i will show you how easily a BD can take out a nuker of the same levels with no buffpets.
sch3nk2k4 I sincerely hope those comments were targetted at me because I never said anything like a BD can never take out a mage, quite the opposite, actually. I have stated that BD and pretty much every other melee toon can own my Necro with buffs. I have also stated that I easily own them (non-archer melee classes) without buffs (cause everything lands). Buffed Melee > Me if similar leveled (same grade, etc.) in top gear. All they need is +4 weapons and all their important skills to that level range...
I will agree.
But from what I've seen in high level PvP (watching others PvP/ganksquads/etc. personally) there is little skill IRT PvP Lol. There is more luck involved than skill.
BD can as well, considering he'll be in the Archer Party providing dances...
Meaning he'll have Cat Buff, Hunter, CoV, etc.
End game you'll be hitting a BD in a fully buffed Archer Party for like.. 300-400. You'll be getting hit for *at least* 2k a crit and he'll be crit'ing more then enough to wax any CP you've got. (With a Bow obviously.. with Duals, he'll come up, dance Medusa and if you dont get para, he'll start swinging S grade duals for 1k-ish crits per sword)
This is a ridiculously dumb thread which should have been answered in two seconds.
- Self buffed of course the nuker wins.
- Prophet buffed the BD stands a chance if he gets lucky on crits.
- Full buffed, the BD will crush the nuker unless the nuker mage crits.
End of story. And yeah I'm assuming end game levels/gear.
This is a ridiculously dumb thread which should have been answered in two seconds.
- Self buffed of course the nuker wins.
- Prophet buffed the BD stands a chance if he gets lucky on crits.
- Full buffed, the BD will crush the nuker unless the nuker mage crits.
End of story. And yeah I'm assuming end game levels/gear.
Hey Look, a guy from the strongest clan on Bartz agreeing with me.
And if it's not endgame - say mid lvl's 50's and 60's??
Then the BD gets owned, because he needs the high lvl resists in order to take the damage the mage is dishing out.
Want more? (Shrug) I see him really getting owned by Mages though man, hes falling left and right. I'm suprised he just hasnt went emo and /slit by now.
"And if it's not endgame - say mid lvl's 50's and 60's??
Then the BD gets owned, because he needs the high lvl resists in order to take the damage the mage is dishing out. "
Idiots?
Level 50/60 mages don't have Vortexes to stack with their Glooms and Surrenders, their spells also have much less power on them and unless very tweaked out, their weapons aren't as uber as an A/S grade player with SoM/Acumen and Arcana Mace. Also note that C/B grade mage weapons don't get the PvP damage bonus.
The mage is at a deficit even in B and unless you can afford A grade right when you ding 61 (~350Mil+ for a full set of A grade armor/weapon+SA/Jewels), Lower A grade also.
I'm sorry you cannot see that a B grade BD with B grade resist buffs can own a mage. Actually, necro is prolly the easiest B Grade mage to kill because their PDef sucks and they cannot remove Resist Unholy. They cannot stack Gloom and Vortex to up their damage, they just hit for 4-500 while the BD runs up and pwns their face.
And yes, 100% resist rate on Gloom and Curse: Fear.
And melee can pwn a mage in B/A/S grade if they get buffed. It's a trivial thing (unless the mage is an SPS or the melee's jewels suck). Melee with top jewels and B Grade resist buffs > Mage.
You guys should listen to the guy from Uprising.. aren't they the ones you kneel before on Bartz? Apparently it's through superior knowledge of the game.
LOL i dont bow to UR and i play on Bartz
....oh thats right you dont play on bartz so you just assume that they run the entire server
i know people who are KoS to UR and ya know what, they still have no problem playing the game and leveling and such
and just because he is in UR doesnt mean that he is a god of knowledge, it just means that he is in the clan
has he played his nuker versus my BD, ok then why should i listen to him saying that there is no way i am going to win?
cause ill say it again, unless you know what ur talking about and have had PERSONAL experience (not just heard of or watched) then you cant come and make comments about stuff
...ps ever wonder why a bunch of the UR names are random characters and such .....much like bot names .....soooo they got where they are from superior knowledge .....?
However, Aeze still basically agreed with everything we are saying.
I dont think ANYONE here said that a BD would win just self buffed. Thats complete suicide.
I did think we said if its PP buffs vs SE buffs, the BD would likely win... your talking WW/Emp/Shield vs a host of buffs both offensive and defensive.
Fully buffed again, the diffrence is even more dramatic (especially if the BD has a bow and every BD should).
So please, learn to read would help Tacoman, because he didnt say anything all of us already havent said.
Go pwn some newbz on Gustin who've got Elven Jewelry and come proclaim your god some more ka?
LOL i dont bow to UR and i play on Bartz
....oh thats right you dont play on bartz so you just assume that they run the entire server
i know people who are KoS to UR and ya know what, they still have no problem playing the game and leveling and such
and just because he is in UR doesnt mean that he is a god of knowledge, it just means that he is in the clan
has he played his nuker versus my BD, ok then why should i listen to him saying that there is no way i am going to win?
cause ill say it again, unless you know what ur talking about and have had PERSONAL experience (not just heard of or watched) then you cant come and make comments about stuff
...ps ever wonder why a bunch of the UR names are random characters and such .....much like bot names .....soooo they got where they are from superior knowledge .....?
A few things:
While this may make Bartz sound not very fun, I hate to break it to you: Unless you're in TD, you bow to UR. Maybe you're just not high level enough to notice, yet.
Of course anyone on KOS (although I can't really think of anyone who's on KOS that we're not at war with, so you're probably just BSing) can level and play the game, the world is much too big to attempt to stop anybody from playing the game if they want. Plus, wouldn't stopping people from playing the game only hurt us in the long run? It's not UR general policy to do that.
And yeah, I've played Sorcs/SH's and BD's a lot. I've been each of the situations many times. Why would I bother posting if I was just making stuff up?
Which UR names are random? Botting? Give me a break. Trust me, sch3nk2k4 is much more "random" than anything you'll see in UR.
the leader of flamebone on Bartz says BD's WTBBQPWNINYOURFACE mages??? how could this be???
Yeah, A Sorc in Demon with a +7 Homuk, with Emp3, Zerk 2, Mystic...
Did 742 Damage. Woot! That wasnt even a 4 shot either :/
I'm wondering how to get this mythical 4 shot thing myself. I think I'm going to need to get a +12-13 Homuk, a SpellHowler, Gloom and Surrender stacked... we'll see.
Simply Put, a SPS will win 80% of matchs, Necro SHOULD win 80%, Sorc 75% (cos they kinda suck lol), SH 50%(para and slow help here)
That is counting Buffed fights, unbuffed the nukers ****, pp vs se buffed, nukers will **** again.
Bd's are a support class, learn to deal with it boys and girls, oh and comon dont even say your gonna have a "hero bd with full boss jewllery for the example"thats just [censored] mad dumb, i give him a ant queen and zaken which is acceptable.
Ok after 13 pages I have to say something. It entirely depends on the BD. If the BD doesn’t nerf -8 or -10 the con and/or str and gets a decent set of duels that can actually do some damage not just hit a lot and make pretty colors, the BD could win a fair amount of pvp with caster mages and OL’s. Now, make no mistake I’m NOT saying BD’s are primary DD’s, but what I am saying is that you can build your BD to kill robe and light armour wearers.
You know, there really is only one way to solve this. I say let's have a class war. Every mage go out and nuke a BD of your same/approximate level on sight. The BD's that win the battle get to come back here and brag about it. The BD's that lose should just post a simple text with no embellishment or explanation necessary, to wit, "-1."
Like I said 2-3 times already... early on mages win, and later on dancer wins, if you have the right setup of course. I have fought against tons of dances, some at high levels, and some at low levels, and I think that you can pretty much say all that is true. Most buffed fights now though are usually kind of random. There are just so many "chance" skills in the game now, anything can happen, really. Secondly, (if you include aqua guard) I would say Sorcerer actually has the BEST chance at beating a dancer... they are a very good mage PvP class, just lacking in PvE :( Kind of hard to say if Spellsinger or Spellhowler is 2nd best... probably about the same.
end game bd wins? yes?
ok
78bd with drac bow tallum heavy+6 tateosian +4 and full rezistance buffs... ok he can crit hard....
but on opposite side...
78 nuker. pow emp bd dances sws p def/reuse time songs. acu zerk ans such.
like triple faster vortex caster than bd bow shooter so unless bd can 1-2shot mage hes a dead meat(not to mention if mage crits-and with end game buffs thats like 1/8- he will get 1-2shooted...
Get three buffs: elemental protection, unholy resistance and magic defense. This is the crux of the entire argument and why high level pvp is different than low level pvp, at high levels, a mages damage becomes paltry because of the incredible effectiveness of magic defense buffs. The entire set of mage related buffs even at high levels simply are not enough to counter these three buffs.
Well, if you start to give mages PoW and dances and songs, they do better yeah, but that isn't really a 1v1 anymore... well sort of isn't. How much damage do you think a magic critical would hit a 78 dancer for with the same buffs? This includes: Elemental protection, song of warding, song/dance of the element you are fighting against, divine protection, unholy resist, magic barrier, and the current elemental resist. That is, I think two 30% M.Def. increases, and a 20-30%, 30%, and another 30% resist to a certain element. Not 100% sure how to calculate the damage, but I can tell you right now it's not a lot. Just to give you something to go by, when I am unbuffed, I hit a dancer with 78 Prophet buffs and dances for about 250 with +6 hydro blast.
I have no problem beating a mage as long as tehy dont have song of wind & ww, they can have one or other, just not both, or they get away to quick :P
I was unbuffed, and no, I am not lying. It was a 78 dancer with aqua guard, magic barrier, S jewelry, resist aqua, dance of aqua guard.
Why the hell would you fight a 78 dancer who is fully buffed when you are unbuffed? That's just stupid, and of course you're gonna die for it.
Here's a tip.. you have cancel, use it. One lucky cancel and you could have been hitting him for 5 times the damage. You might also consider throwing out a surrender to water, you know to get rid of that pesky resist aqua. Might also be worth considering getting that nasty ice dagger thingy out there kind of early in the fight too.. .you know the one with the nasty nasty DoT and the slow effect.
Ice dagger is the worst skill to ever use in pvp, it does [censored] damage, the dot NEVER lands, and even then its more efficient to use a aura flare than that crap :P
Ice dagger is the worst skill to ever use in pvp, it does [censored] damage, the dot NEVER lands, and even then its more efficient to use a aura flare than that crap :P
BigHands and Ferslicious should maybe read my posts and what they refer to instead of just insulting me. I was showing how much damage I was doing in that situation, of course I don't expect to win unbuffed. The point of it was to show the power of mage resist buffs, because I would normally do about 600-700. And why would I use light vortex when I was trying to see how much my water spells do to him? Light vortex is ok if they have aqua resistance... assuming they didn't get divine protection too. You use it, hit for about 1.2k if you have buffs, and if it lands, which is probably about 70-80% of the time, not a bad land rate. After that, you use solar flare, hit for about 1.1k, and then what? Well then you have to keep using aqua spells until they recharge... which is sort of long.
I wasn't trying to be insulting. I was pointing out that you were showing a total extreme. [censored], my dwarf will kill your SPS if I'm fully buffed with the perfect resists and you are unbuffed. My point was that it's a poor example.
This is a stupid discussion anyways.
The bottom line is a 78 BD with endgame buffs in S grade with a focus drac bow and boss jewels will probably kill the mage. Otherwise the BD is dead.
Ok, I believe you... it's just the way you said things was sort of insulting. Anyway, I am talking about 76+ dancers... I'm pretty sure I stated somewhere in here that they will lose at lower levels, but maybe I didn't. A bow with focus helps a ton, but you don't have to have it. It is probably about a 50/50 chance without a bow, and maybe win 60% of the time with it, and more like 70% with boss jewelry. A lot of it depends on your tatoo setup though.
IMO it mostly depends on what resists the guy has and whether you get lucky with cancel or not.
Honestly, the whole discussion is pretty stupid, because pure 1v1 PvP doesn't happen often. On top of that, one of the biggest factors will be who ses who first, and whether the other guy is fighting a mob at the time.
Ice dagger is the worst skill to ever use in pvp, it does [censored] damage, the dot NEVER lands, and even then its more efficient to use a aura flare than that crap :P
I kinda got a chuckle out of it myself.
Throw that Ice Dagger thingy, I hear its uber!
I love how ice dagger looks, how this little tiny sliver of ice rotates in the air to form this massive ice spike which then proceeds to run through the target. It is a fantastic animation and I award the designer who made it. Sadly it doesn't perform as well number wise.
I wasn't trying to be insulting. I was pointing out that you were showing a total extreme. [censored], my dwarf will kill your SPS if I'm fully buffed with the perfect resists and you are unbuffed. My point was that it's a poor example.
This is a stupid discussion anyways.
The bottom line is a 78 BD with endgame buffs in S grade with a focus drac bow and boss jewels will probably kill the mage. Otherwise the BD is dead.
so yeah.. BD's own mages.
If your dwarf is a BH, then no u have no chance even if we are unbuffed (assuming we have pots to use like ww and acumen),
if your a WS then we can still beat u 50% or so of the time lol
dont know what u smokin.
Bd's dont own mages u dont know what u smokin, so if were sayin end game buffs ok, so i cancel your buffs what u doin now? seeing i have siren + pow + wild magic, im crittin every 3rd shot at 1650 cast speed, no what makes u think the bd can output enough damage before i drop em, especially when canceled.
::bashes head onto desk repeatably::
why on earth is this still being argued
its like the SE vs EE question
we can argue it all night and day for 7 years, ans in the end it will still be different from person to person and there will always be exceptions