In PvP, who wins?: SH or SpS in your opinion, and why?
- Need to know, re-activating second account. Rerolling one of the above... can't decide which ;-)
You might be focusing on wrong part. PVP is such a small part of the game. You'll spend most of your time PVE.
I like SpS. I don't like their mana issues. Even with mana pots, mental elixirs, summons, rechargers and clarity, one of my friends who is an SpS still complains about mp.
It's better now than it used to be for SpS, but every class has something to complain about, and that's one of theirs. Do a search and you'll come across some very informative posts on the class.
Me, I'm a bit of an odd one. As you can tell by my tag line, I like playing a variety of classes for different reasons. I even play multiple characters of the same class type. For example I play both a PR and an HE, which are both archers, but have different feels/styles to them. Same for the SH and the Necro..both nukers, but different.
Which toon I play on any given day depends on my mood. Some days I'm on a visceral bent, and on those days I'll play the dagger (AW), tank (SK) or support fighter(BD). Other days I want to XP quickly, so I go with either a mage or an archer. And of the two, if I want to be more actively engaged, I pick the mage. If I just want to hang back and smoke a few mobs with as few keystrokes involved as possible, I play one of the archers.
MEN means almost nothing for mana regeneration, which is why most mages go -8 to -10 MEN. In PvP it really depends. In just a shoot out from 900 range, the Spellsinger would probably win. If the Spellhowler comes close to silence and it lands, then that is an instant win... but then they are no close enough for the Spellsinger to cancel. It all really depends on health and damage. If everything lands on me, it usually takes a howler about 4 shots to kill me, and takes me about 5-6 to kill them... but my shots are faster, and sometimes interrupt theirs, so I usually win. However, there is one howler that has a lot of good gear, enough to kill me in 3 shots, which makes all the difference. I never win against them.
SH imo
They hit the hardest, Level insanely fast, and their cast speed can be upped with Speed Robes like Avadon and Dark Crystal, + Wit tatts. They are fun to play with, Curse Death Link spell is very fun skill to use. IMO between SpS and SH, SH FTW!
Straight 1 vs. 1 pvp with equal levels, buffs and equipment, sps wins most of the time unless the SH gets lucky with silence or doesn't get interrupted all the time. If you don't want to concentrate on pvp only, SH is a more versatile class to play. SH has great MP management with body to mind, corpse life drain and vampiric claw. A good example of this is in raids, SH has more than half MP left when the SPS is sitting and asking for recharge.
Nuker PvP is mainly about buffs and cast speed but gear and, of course, character level also play a (big) role. The Matk difference between the classes has very minimal impact to damage. If you assume equal buffs, gear, and levels (which is a bad assumption) then SpS will win most PvP contests simply due to the higher cast speed. In most cases buffs, gear, and levels / skill OE will be imbalanced.
Typically, SpS will try cancel, then surrender (or Vortex if they have it), then nuke away. SH will try silence (especially if it is OE) then surrender (or Vortex if they have it), then nuke away.
At level 77 Wind Vortex may help level the PvP playing field against SpS since it has a huge casting speed debuff. A 77+ SH will probably try Wind Vortex, Silence, then switch to Hurricane.
As one of the earlier posters mentioned, you have to PvE (a L.O.T) to PvP. Due to MP management issues with SpS, SH have a huge advantage in PvE over SpS so will get to higher level significantly faster and make more adena in the process since it is easier to find 1-shot and 2-shot mobs. SH can save even more money using CDL for the 52+ levels if they have a stout heart!
Ummm, playing as a 76 stormscreamer, almost 77, SH is a very fun class.
Benefits: Best PVE ingame, Good PVP class (Archer still better endgame), alot of skills (I have 5 different nukes now) and decent AOE.
If you like to kill mobs, kill people, have alot of skills, look really cool, and ummm yeah, probably go spellhowler.
Disadvantages: Slow, but all nukers are. Low HP/Pdef, lowest HP of all nukers, all nukers have low pdef however. SH is also really easy to stun, hella easy.
78 Spellsinger (MM, but I hate the 3rd class change name) with every buff in the game including malaria and PoW = 1776
78 Storm Screamer with every buff in the game including malaria and PoW = 1466
Both are over 1333, and thus we are talking about less than .25 of a second difference.
Frankly, if you do the math, we are talking about less than a tenth of a second difference between the spellsinger and the Spellhowler to cast a standard nuke...
The mage who wins in PvP is the mage who nukes first or gets their IWIN debuff/control spell (fear, silence, cancel, vortex) to land.
The Spellhowler is infintiely easier to level solo and thus will be MUCH higher level with the same time put into it.
This is a no-brainer. Spellhowler.
Any mage without B2M and Death Spike might as well not exist.
All the numbers about cast speed don't tell the full story. Nuker PvP requires chain nuking. I XP grind in the same spot as an SpS. We are both 76+, have similar buffs (including Malaria, Zerk2, Acumen3), tats, etc., but the SpS can cast 4 nukes noticeably faster than me. This is due to the higher starting cast speed of the SpS but also probably influenced by internet connection.
For PvP you must have the auto-bsps toggle on and it must work on every shot or you die for sure. To guarantee fastest casting you have to chain a single nuke by holding down the hotkey and CAN NOT use macros due to ridiculous latency and dropped skills that almost always occur, which is a shame because I personally think that the best PvP combinations can't be used due to connection latency issues. For me (at 76) that means Dark Vortex followed by chaining Death Spike. Soon I will be able to upgrade to Wind Vortex followed by Hurricane which will, due to the debuff, be considerably more powerful in PvP.
In a nuker vs nuker battle it is clear that you win if (a) you land one of the "I Win" skills referred to by Thalenduros, or (b) you land more nukes. The only factors of significance here are luck (landing silence, cancel, or a mage crit), casting speed, and internet connection latency.
but the SpS can cast 4 nukes noticeably faster than me.
This is quite frankly not true when fully buffed.
Straight up fights with even Storm Screamers turn up almost identical amount so of nukes. Spellsingers are faster, yes... but given that the timing is so close, the difference will be who shoots first, who has more buffs, or who lands their IWIN.
78 Spellsinger (MM, but I hate the 3rd class change name) with every buff in the game including malaria and PoW = 1776
78 Storm Screamer with every buff in the game including malaria and PoW = 1466
Both are over 1333, and thus we are talking about less than .25 of a second difference.
Frankly, if you do the math, we are talking about less than a tenth of a second difference between the spellsinger and the Spellhowler to cast a standard nuke...
The mage who wins in PvP is the mage who nukes first or gets their IWIN debuff/control spell (fear, silence, cancel, vortex) to land.
The Spellhowler is infintiely easier to level solo and thus will be MUCH higher level with the same time put into it.
This is a no-brainer. Spellhowler.
Any mage without B2M and Death Spike might as well not exist.
Hrm. I seen a 78 MM screenshot with over 1900 cast speed.
but the SpS can cast 4 nukes noticeably faster than me.
This is quite frankly not true when fully buffed.
Straight up fights with even Storm Screamers turn up almost identical amount so of nukes. Spellsingers are faster, yes... but given that the timing is so close, the difference will be who shoots first, who has more buffs, or who lands their IWIN.
You kind of missed the point of my post. I stated the buffs (and I am not "fully buffed"): Zerk2, Acumen3, Hot Springs Malaria level 4. I have Acumen SA and WIT+5 with DC robes and my cast speed is 1057. I rarely, if ever, have the remaining key buffs: CoV/PoW and BD dances. I also don't have any augmentation benefits. I believe that I am slower than the SpS due to two factors: cast speed and internet connection latency. There may be a third factor if the SpS is using a programmable game pad to more effectively chain nukes than me. I push hotkeys on my keyboard. If I am trying to alternate nukes to eliminate reuse delays then I am at a clear disadvantage to someone that has a programmable game pad.
Once I hit 77 then I would like to do the following:
Wind Vortex
Dark Vortex
Hurricane
Death Spike
Hurricane
Death Spike
Hurricane
Death Spike
But I won't be able to do this because I use only hotkeys and am too subject to latency in the user interface, so I will end up doing:
Wind Vortex
Press and hold Hurricane hotkey
The point is, and it IS true and inarguable since it is my observation, the SpS clearly nukes faster than me with similar buffs (PP and SE). There is more to casting speed than the casting speed number on your character stats screen. Unfortunately, with the way this game is architected, PvP is heavily impacted by the speed with which the L2 client can send commands to the server, with the keyboard/gamepad and internet connection playing a huge role. It is sad that we can't rely on in-game macros to fix this problem since that would provide an opportunity for skill to be a factor (in the design of macros for special situations).
No, it would just mean that everyone of the same class at similar levels would use the same macros.
But you are correct, cast speed not only affects cast speed, but also the speed in which skills refresh. The SPS isn't just getting .25 advantage in cast speed once (I didn't check such numbers, just using his example), but twice because his skills will refresh just as fast compared to you as his cast speed. Vortex, press and hold F1; even people on dialup connections playing such a fast casting class can own another player doing this.
Latency plays an issue, yes - but this is a very barebones situation since you are PvPing a caster with little utility outside of its nukes.
I can see how the latency can become an issue when you are PvPing another mage with more tricks up their sleeves (like an SH or a Necro).
The first thing you should try to do is Silence an SPS. They cast way too fast. You won't be able to outcast them, and they will interrupt you ALOT more than you interrupt them. You will die trying to go toe to toe with them most times, unless you crit. They also have 2 vortexes and I'm betting they will cast theirs alot faster than yours. SPS with similar tat setup (+4 INT, +5 WIT) at high levels has a huge buffed cast speed advantage over similar geared SH.
62 Necro (Human) with Acumen, BD Dance, and Zerk is sporting 1097 cast speed (less passives, no Malaria, only +4 WIT with DC Set), so I doubt your cast speed will be competitive with a 7x MM with similar buffs. Buffs are % based and they get a much better boost as a Elf than Dark Elves do.
Since cast speed is testable to be a comparable stat (anyone at 333 cast speed casts base 4 second spells at 4 seconds or 2 seconds with a bsps) your observations seem fishy.
Perhaps you are indeed on a high latency connection... which is not a fair comparison to your buddy or for class comparison.
Nonetheless, the difference for someone on a functional connection is tiny. The game rules favor Spellhowlers by a massive margin.
The choice for the OP is clear. Spellhowler is superior by a landslide.
Since cast speed is testable to be a comparable stat (anyone at 333 cast speed casts base 4 second spells at 4 seconds or 2 seconds with a bsps) your observations seem fishy.
Perhaps you are indeed on a high latency connection... which is not a fair comparison to your buddy or for class comparison.
Nonetheless, the difference for someone on a functional connection is tiny. The game rules favor Spellhowlers by a massive margin.
The choice for the OP is clear. Spellhowler is superior by a landslide.
I agree with the conclusion. If you are starting fresh I would choose SH again over SpS.
I also don't think my observation is fishy. My main point was that with good buffs and gear the main distinction in cast speed will not be the stat shown on your character sheet it will be your internet connection and your keyboard / gamepad. My ping rate is often >100ms. When my ping rate is <70ms I can see a huge difference in the speed with which I chain nukes. So it is no surprise to me to see the SpS shoot noticeably faster than me when I've got a high ping rate. In my opinion this is a factor in nuker PvP that can't be ignored.
In L2 a person with higher levels and better gear is generally going to win. If you are rerolling a SH will make it there faster.
A sps has the worst mana management out of all the nuker type classes. Least amount of damage per hit, no B2M, and not to mention a fast casting speed which definately lets you tear through your monsters for 2 minutes but will make you rest for 10.
Point being is you could most likely have a lvl 65 SH by the time you have a level 58 SpS.
On the pvp perspective SpS are great with their cast speed. When doing 1v1 pvp against other nukers I have interrupted their casting many times which makes me get the winning blow in. BUT let me remind you that a SH against another nuker has Silence. Doesn't matter if the sps can get in two nukes to your one silence, because after that you win! Nukers against melee, sps can stop them faster, but a SH isn't going to have too much trouble either.
Basically SH vs other mage will win if they get silence off. Also they hit hard, have two good ranged nukes that you can alternate to basically nullify the cast speed difference. With full buffs, and acumen setup the SH will still cast slowest, but he will also cast fast. Group PvP SH are good if not better than other nukers because they hit really hard.
Let me break it down real quick.
PvE: SH>Necro>Sorc>SpS (Sorc and SpS could be switched since sorc has higher output of nuke damage and a basically worthless low lvl B2M skill along with more mobs with inherent fire weaknesses, SpS get an over hit skill)
PvP: Necro>SpS>SH>Sorc (again this is debatable since the Sorc can cast faster than the SH, but SH has a better variety of skills such as 2 projectile nukes, silence, drains, etc. etc. where a sorc mainly has prom.)
So if you want PvP and PvE necro is good, but expensive.
My next bet especially if starting over again would be an SH.
And if not SH then SpS.
Sorcs are still a good class but seem to be somewhat mediocre at everything. (sorry sorcs :( )
.125 x 5 nukes is getting close to a second of nukes and the higher lvl u get the more nukes u can take. Sooo Sps would probably get further ahead as the duel goes on thus winnin ;).
And "yes" I should know this after 3+ years of playing.
What the heck do Spellsingers do during sieges when it is so easy to empty out your mana reserves? Do you just sit and wait, do you try to bum recharges as you can get them, or do Players with Spellsinger characters have a recharger following them around?
I have never stopped to notice what they actually do!
Once I hit 77 then I would like to do the following:
Wind Vortex
Dark Vortex
Hurricane
Death Spike
Hurricane
Death Spike
Hurricane
Death Spike
But I won't be able to do this because I use only hotkeys and am too subject to latency in the user interface, so I will end up doing:
Wind Vortex
Press and hold Hurricane hotkey
Didn't read much else, or see if anyone responded to this, but... this is so true. Once you start putting on acumen and dances, the cast speed difference is almost 0. You would think things that lower reuse would be good for me... but they really aren't. If I had no reuse on my main attack (which I get from ES buff) then my game would lag (and probably everyone's does) making my spiritshots come on after I start casting... which ends up actually slowing me down because I don't get the 50% faster cast from spiritshots :(
Also, don't know if you know this or not, but vortexes don't stack, so doing dark then wind usually doesn't work so good, unless you are draining life!
vs my mystic muse a sh have almost no chances of win, need many luck .SH is really bad at pvping , cast slow and have low pdef and hp, many sh that realized about it just play their sub. Mystic muse have so many good skills, so far necros and mystic muse are the best mages for pvp. At massive pvp sh can do really good
Our lvl 76 sps brings his own SE. He rarely dies, so he just puts it behind him and mows enemies down. We usually have an EE in the nuker party too. As long as the whole party isn't SpS's, that's sufficient. A spellsinger without a recharger does a lot of sitting.
Herbs have changed the situation with mana management though. Yesterday I was playing my sps, and with SE buffs I was able to stay near full mp all the time with just herb drops. It has greatly lessened the advantages of the SH/Necro crowd in PvE. SpS only fair poorly in areas without the herbs (i.e. in most party situations).
And to be realistic, I've watched all nukers do just fine in PvP.
For sieges most mana classes carry the mp elixirs and I know all sieging clans I've been in have had a glut of SE's and EE's to manage the mp as well. But since they are so squishy usually they just unload until they die and recharge up to full in town.
And "yes" I should know this after 3+ years of playing.
What the heck do Spellsingers do during sieges when it is so easy to empty out your mana reserves? Do you just sit and wait, do you try to bum recharges as you can get them, or do Players with Spellsinger characters have a recharger following them around?
I have never stopped to notice what they actually do!
We either carry two rechargers in tow or end up sitting.
Yes, TWO rechargers because one is not enough mana.
A fully buffed 80 MM can empty their mana in under 1 minute and can drain an SE(SS) or EE(ES) as fast as they can cast recharge. (this isn't realistic, we stand there and get recharged until we have enough mana to realistically kill something)
Most often we just end up chilling at one point in the throne room as we are completely out of mana and worthless anyways. Most rechargers aren't stupid enough to charge mages unless the throne room is being attacked. (its a waste of mana... archers are recharged, mages get to stand around)
Spellsinger/MM HP are also tiny... any spellsinger/MM who doesn't die ever is also not PvPing at all. A fully buffed 80 MM in overenchanted gear and every buff he can find still dies in ONE hit to a buffed 7x archer.
Its not like every other player on the battlefield isn't an archer...
vs my mystic muse a sh have almost no chances of win, need many luck .SH is really bad at pvping , cast slow and have low pdef and hp, many sh that realized about it just play their sub. Mystic muse have so many good skills, so far necros and mystic muse are the best mages for pvp. At massive pvp sh can do really good
This is simply ludicrous.
Cast Slow?
Try again... a MM will be a massive tenth of a second faster...
This is "faster" but it sure isn't a whole lot of time.
Mage vs Mage fights are 4-5 nuke affairs unless you are MASSIVELY buffed against the other element.
When both are fully buffed it is simply a matter of who shoots first. Especially when both will lead off with Wind/Ice vortex. The guy hit and affected first will lose period.
Yep, that means if the Storm screamer fires first, if he isn't completely horrible, he just won.
Note, I am assuming the fight starts at 900 range, and thus 600 range abilities are nto applicable... if they are, if one of those lands, the mage who got it off wins.