This post is mainly for people who actually play ws.
My friend and I have been discussing craft shops recently in our discussions in making the most amount of money quickly versus steady profit. So far we have been busy analyzing the different markets available to toons in game to see which has most potential.
It really seems that the crafting shops get screwed out of the equation though based on the fact that you have other players who for some reason don't value the time commitment and effort they put into levelling their dwarf. Anyone who has done a BH or WS class change quest honestly should have some respect for the amount of effort put into it.
Just to reiterate for all the slow people out there, you totally can price your stuff at whatever you want, ruining markets for other honest dwarves.
Lets start with shot creation. Standard that I try to follow and tell people wondering what price to pay for manufacturing their own shots is no more than 1 adena per created shot. So for BSS anything 476 and below is good. *** anything 300 and below is good. Does that seem reasonable? I don't even go that high. being usually at 200 for bss and 250 for ***.
Now what about weapons and armors and advanced craft mats like maestro mold. There really does not seem to be any guidelines or even a realm of thought as to pricing. But you clearly do have dwarves who devalue the class entirely like our 2 examples below:
Dumbarse#1 sells crafting maestro mold for 50 adena per click
Dumbarse#2 decides that he wants to make about 500 adena for the day and sets his price to 1a for all his stuff. 500 clicks wham he met his target goal.
Whereas poor *******#1, has gone around fought hours/days in a location to get a recipe and does place a value on their time but has a hard time manufacturing because people are used to dumbarse#1 and dumbarse#2 on their server who will charge 50adena to craft armor and weapons.
And for those super high level dwarves who will say they are just providing community service, well sorry but you do ruin other the class for other dwarves trying to still make it thru various means.
I will give you a real scenario from recent. My dwarf had avadon gaitor recipe on them, someone was sitting in town for 2 days looking for crafter. It was not in my book and my recipe book was full. Avadon heavy is not very popular an armor on my server so it would be taking up a slot almost wasted. So I told the person I'd craft it for 200K, got tired of hearing them shout for it. Thats the equivalent of maybe 2500 BSS (74a) at their level. Guy comes back and says oh that price is too high. I explain to the guy, I'm not changing the price. Aside from him totally devaluing my dwarfs skills, I just blew 1.4mil to buy stupid pocf to get the extra slots, the least he could do was pay what I think was a reasonable cost of crafting the gaiters.
Did dwarves get ebayed out of existence? Because their crafting seems to be entirely devalued in other non-dwarf players minds and even other dwarfs eyes. This is just straight player to player not friends and La familia. Any thoughts? Good/bad are appreciated.
think it comes from dorfs being thought of nothing more then just a crafter or a spoiler. People think this because of the lack of PVP skills.
200k for the craft wasn't unreasonable. guy didn't want to pay 200k for a b-grade armor part..wait til he needs S-grade. most s-armor parts are 5-20mil a craft and weapon 3-7mil a craft on devianne
Devianne is expensive then. 200k, heck I can get A-grade crafts at that. Multiple ones.
I personally price shots on MP usage and popularity. A/B shots cost more, naturally. Dont even waste space with D and C is not in the shop usually, atleast CSS is out.
For equipment, mp usage, recipe price, common price on market. For example, BW parts I price around 20-35k. Same for Doom, BO etc. Weapons are a bit more expensive, but since you can get S-grade weapon craft for a couple mil max, no idea to try to get that much from B/A-weapons. A-armors go for 80-200k, depends on the item and price of recipe really.
I have 3x added recipe book space, and I dont spend any of those for useless items.
My WS ofcourse is an alt ^^ No reason to add all A-helm/armor recipes into the book since I can find crafters that make them cheap and have the recipe already ^^ (like the 76 maestro in Ally >.>)
I leveled 4 dwarves in a row (academy is nice motivation). I spent couple weeks collecting recipes for lvl 4 materials and other stuff, each multiple times for my 2 crafters and clanie's dwarves too. I use craftshops overnight, those 40-60-100k extra adena per night from materials is nice, while running sellshop on second account.
Pricing is 'normal', 20a per level 1 materials etc., molds according to prices of other nearby dwarves. I can appreciate dwarven work and pay what crafter asks for custom crafting.
I do not see it as a threat. I use it often, and myself I got few "stable customers" that use my dorfie girl because I did some favor for them previously. I think craft shops are great things and I appreciate they implemented it.
(now only if they could put some craft shop memory or predefined sets of crafts, not to click 20 items every time I relog :( )
This post is mainly for people who actually play ws.
My friend and I have been discussing craft shops recently in our discussions in making the most amount of money quickly versus steady profit. So far we have been busy analyzing the different markets available to toons in game to see which has most potential.
It really seems that the crafting shops get screwed out of the equation though based on the fact that you have other players who for some reason don't value the time commitment and effort they put into levelling their dwarf. Anyone who has done a BH or WS class change quest honestly should have some respect for the amount of effort put into it.
Just to reiterate for all the slow people out there, you totally can price your stuff at whatever you want, ruining markets for other honest dwarves.
Lets start with shot creation. Standard that I try to follow and tell people wondering what price to pay for manufacturing their own shots is no more than 1 adena per created shot. So for BSS anything 476 and below is good. *** anything 300 and below is good. Does that seem reasonable? I don't even go that high. being usually at 200 for bss and 250 for ***.
Now what about weapons and armors and advanced craft mats like maestro mold. There really does not seem to be any guidelines or even a realm of thought as to pricing. But you clearly do have dwarves who devalue the class entirely like our 2 examples below:
Dumbarse#1 sells crafting maestro mold for 50 adena per click
Dumbarse#2 decides that he wants to make about 500 adena for the day and sets his price to 1a for all his stuff. 500 clicks wham he met his target goal.
Whereas poor *******#1, has gone around fought hours/days in a location to get a recipe and does place a value on their time but has a hard time manufacturing because people are used to dumbarse#1 and dumbarse#2 on their server who will charge 50adena to craft armor and weapons.
And for those super high level dwarves who will say they are just providing community service, well sorry but you do ruin other the class for other dwarves trying to still make it thru various means.
I will give you a real scenario from recent. My dwarf had avadon gaitor recipe on them, someone was sitting in town for 2 days looking for crafter. It was not in my book and my recipe book was full. Avadon heavy is not very popular an armor on my server so it would be taking up a slot almost wasted. So I told the person I'd craft it for 200K, got tired of hearing them shout for it. Thats the equivalent of maybe 2500 BSS (74a) at their level. Guy comes back and says oh that price is too high. I explain to the guy, I'm not changing the price. Aside from him totally devaluing my dwarfs skills, I just blew 1.4mil to buy stupid pocf to get the extra slots, the least he could do was pay what I think was a reasonable cost of crafting the gaiters.
Did dwarves get ebayed out of existence? Because their crafting seems to be entirely devalued in other non-dwarf players minds and even other dwarfs eyes. This is just straight player to player not friends and La familia. Any thoughts? Good/bad are appreciated.
well, what did you expect? it's not players fault that they want to get crafts as cheap as possible, it's the craft store system that's plainly broken because one dwarf can supply whole town with his private store.
if any good regulation would be implemented, a dwarf who put his store at ridiculously low prices would be swarmed by clients at first, then his store would become depleted very fast and customers would have to either wait long time or search for stores with slightly higher prices.
the problem with craft stores is simple:
- the service provided by dwarves (aka crafting) doesn't consume time or resources, the only thing it needs is some mana which is meaningless because it replenishes fast and can be recharged.
- too many dwarves have the same items available in craft stores at same time. imagine in RL 10 barber shops opened in the same place, some of them will fall out of business for sure.
- you register the recipe once and you can craft this item forever, again no constrains at all.
a couple of ways to improve craft stores:
1. make it time consuming
- add a cooldown to every recipe (s grade items should have a couple of hours at least)
- make every craft have a "casting time" (s grade items should have up to 0,5h)
- add a limited number of crafts per day on every recipe
- add some mini-game (like fishing) when crafting full items that is performed by the crafter itself, not a customer. this would actually make afk crafting impossible but very valuable :P
2. make it resource consuming
- add limited number of uses to every recipe, if the limit is reached the recipe disappears from craft book
3. specialize the market
- lower the amount of items you can put into craft store at once
- specialize WS at higher levels into armorsmiths, weaponsmiths and jewelcrafters
- allow craft stores to contain only armors, weapons or jewels at same time
Only problem is, they're either really hard to get (new, top A weapons) or noone wants them in the first place ^^
If you do get one of those top A weapon recs in your book, you can set the craft price to what ever you want. The point is, you cant make money in a flooded market. Get a unique product or you wont make money.
When I set up a craft shop, I set my prices normally 1.5 A per MP cost for shots. More for higher lvl Maestro's and such. I can get about 150K per night. I consider that acceptable. I notice quite a few dwarfs selling for less, but doesn't seem to hinder business. Weapons and armor might be a bit harder to guage, I've seen some people with ridiculously low prices before. On Kain they seem to be for the most part reasonable.
When I set up a craft shop, I set my prices normally 1.5 A per MP cost for shots. More for higher lvl Maestro's and such. I can get about 150K per night. I consider that acceptable. I notice quite a few dwarfs selling for less, but doesn't seem to hinder business. Weapons and armor might be a bit harder to guage, I've seen some people with ridiculously low prices before. On Kain they seem to be for the most part reasonable.
see that is where my issue is. 150K a night. On erica 150K = I sold about 15K bss. The one thing that manufacture has better than just plain selling bss is the potential to make a lot more. Once the sell shop runs out, I am not making any money sitting there, but if a manufacturing setup could pull in even close to that money it would be worth it. Sadly its not. On my server bss is mostly purchased by what i suspect are PL groups. They swoop in, one second before going to bed you have 150,000 bss beign sold. 2 seconds later flipflop buys the whole lot of it in a few chunks. Only problem is they don't come back for a good number of hours after that purchase. :-)
As for providing a unique item to manufacture, uhmm what what unique item in B grade BW, Doom, Avadon or Zubei? lol Not much choice or even a reason to choose something other than those if it existed. I used to have funny recipes like bonebreaker, temptation of abyss... How many people have you seen craft one (outside of the yourself back in OB, C1, or C2 :-P)
Seems selling straight SS or OE'ing in the D market is better. The people there have an odd valuation. +7 cursed mainguche with a p.atk of 84 which is almost equivalent to a +3 mithril dagger p.atk 83. Why would i spend all that extra for a crap weapon that was oe'd to a better weapon level when I can just buy the higher end weapon for much cheaper. People must be stupid and buy it or they would not oe them. :)
I have had a dwarf since C2 and I still make adena on the same stuff as I did then. I dont know how many pms I have recieved from angry dwarfs accusing me of stealing their bussiness. The sad part is that these have been dwarfs that have started after I made mind thinking I am some new guy. I see craft prices on different servers and I just laugh at some of them. I always charge what I feel is a fair price for the items I craft.
I do not get what makes some dwarfs think they can continue to charge high prices and not expect other dwarfs to show up with cheaper prices. All lvl 4 and under mats get crafted for 50 A or under, I usually do not set up craft shops with shots other then DSS and that is 10 per craft. Now for items I will only put some up to fill out a craftshop, about 95% of my item crafts are by request.
The prices I charge for items reflect the fact that it is done on request and also depends on how the person heard of me. As a general rule I personaly do not hunt for recs that are not needed by me or my close friends. That being said If I have an item in my book I have more then made up what I paid to get the rec in time and or adena spent for it. The problem with craft shops is that everyone thinks they need any rec that has a chance to be crafted. The main problem with that is you spend alot of time and or adena to get the recs and then end up losing adena.
I keep slots open in my book to be able to make crafts for who have 2 recipes and need it crafted right now. I will craft the item for free or if it is something I want to keep in my book I might offer some compensation to the guy in mats or free crafts. The thing is I dont need all the recs to make adena I just specialize in what I craft and my book changes alot as times change.
I will say that I make more profits with shots and a few select D and C crafts plus mat craftshops then I have ever made crafting A and S grade stuff. I will let you guys figure out what items they are and they are not hard to come by ;).
Well I can say for a fact unless it is priced normally, I do not buy a recipe. Some people want ridiculous amounts for things. I see people trying to sell a Black ore part recipe for 1mil, when they drop like flies from mobs. And any glove/boot recipe at that price is not priced for a dwarf to buy and craft it.
I've gotten very lucky with most of my recipes, and know that me paying x mil for a recipe is not a smart move. If I find it or really need to craft for myself sure, but just to offer in manufacture mode...no waste of money.
I guess what i was really looking for was a few items that i could craft at the 100K-200K range in price and get 5-6 crafts in about 8-10 hours off of it.
The bots already have their crafting machines and tons of the recipes from 24/7 farming so nothing is really rare.
Crafting seems to need some serious help anymore.
What is really funny is that my best recipe is a c-grade recipe so far as well.
I guess also it really does seem that most people share their sets among all their alts. I wonder really just how much new stuff is in the market armor wise.
Dumbarse#1 sells crafting maestro mold for 50 adena per click
Dumbarse#2 decides that he wants to make about 500 adena for the day and sets his price to 1a for all his stuff. 500 clicks wham he met his target goal.
Whereas poor *******#1, has gone around fought hours/days in a location to get a recipe and does place a value on their time but has a hard time manufacturing because people are used to dumbarse#1 and dumbarse#2 on their server who will charge 50adena to craft armor and weapons.
And for those super high level dwarves who will say they are just providing community service, well sorry but you do ruin other the class for other dwarves trying to still make it thru various means.
So i take it that i'm dumbarse#2?
I craft mats for 10a, Maj Jewel for like 50K, and BO for 10K - it's called under cutting. I try to put up prices at 1/2 the standard rate.
But I can gaurentee you that when MY MP runs dry ppl go to another crafter for their Base Mats, thats how the system works. PPL DON'T WANT TO WAIT.
And you shouldnt charge anymore than 2.5X's your MP costs for any shots or Base mats, thats just PLAIN WRONG. So if your charging 500 for MA, or 500 For Maestro Molds, thats why yournot doing any bussiness.
Like MrTeedOff said, "Get a unique product or you wont make money." Thats about it.. dont expect to make a piss load of moeny crafting mats, it's a simple as that. Get Tallum Recs, DC Recs, any other recs that ppl need and craft ALL the time, and put your prices like 10K below the lowest person.
Maestro Mold sells for 2.25M (IDK if people buy em, nor do I offer them for sale) on erica for some strange reason. So value to craft it yourself at a dwarf shop versus buying it for that price needs to be in some balance. I hardly find 3K offensive. Maestro mold is not needed in mass quantity for a recipe that I have seen yet. Unlike maybe crafted leather or VOP. So yeah I do think maetro mold at 50 is not undercutting the market it's devaluing the market and your services. How abotu this lets all just manufacture at 1a per click. I'm just trying to undercut. Might as well be the #1 dwarf not making money back there crafting. The number of items in game is not big enough to have unique items for sale. Its the pokemon attitude, you gotta have em all.
The dwarf class is broken if I can go out and kill mobs and make better money than you crafting at dumbarse#1 prices in town. There does not seem to be a balance between "you can either be making money sitting on your butt, or out getting xp". While I agree, they will just got to the next person crafting it when you are drained, there is a high percentage of dumbarse#1 who devalue the class as a whole. Your price is at the other extreme of the spectrum. I'm just looking for a middle area that is reasonable. At the price dumbarse#1 charges or #2 is charging they are maintaining the same trifling market profit they got at the dss selling level. Maybe that is all those dwarves can manufacture up to anyway. I really don't know levels.
There is no unique item in this game that is craftable, and the dumbarse#1 and dumbarse#2 mentality pervades all levels of crafting, you'll even see A grade weapons that way. Something is definitely wrong with that and is not fixable in the current system unfortunately.
As someone pointed out the best part of being a dwarf whether it be WS or BH is subclassing to something else.
Anymore insight? Or is crafting/pricing as broken as it seems. Selling 100,000 BSS gets me 1.1mil profit. Manufacturing cannot compete when you have people like dumbarse#1 and dumbarse#2. At least when they have to sell shots, if they wanted to do that crap they'd sell at a lose, or you could buy them out.
Dumbarse#1 sells crafting maestro mold for 50 adena per click
Dumbarse#2 decides that he wants to make about 500 adena for the day and sets his price to 1a for all his stuff. 500 clicks wham he met his target goal.
Whereas poor *******#1, has gone around fought hours/days in a location to get a recipe and does place a value on their time but has a hard time manufacturing because people are used to dumbarse#1 and dumbarse#2 on their server who will charge 50adena to craft armor and weapons.
And for those super high level dwarves who will say they are just providing community service, well sorry but you do ruin other the class for other dwarves trying to still make it thru various means.
So i take it that i'm dumbarse#2?
I craft mats for 10a, Maj Jewel for like 50K, and BO for 10K - it's called under cutting. I try to put up prices at 1/2 the standard rate.
But I can gaurentee you that when MY MP runs dry ppl go to another crafter for their Base Mats, thats how the system works. PPL DON'T WANT TO WAIT.
And you shouldnt charge anymore than 2.5X's your MP costs for any shots or Base mats, thats just PLAIN WRONG. So if your charging 500 for MA, or 500 For Maestro Molds, thats why yournot doing any bussiness.
Like MrTeedOff said, "Get a unique product or you wont make money." Thats about it.. dont expect to make a piss load of moeny crafting mats, it's a simple as that. Get Tallum Recs, DC Recs, any other recs that ppl need and craft ALL the time, and put your prices like 10K below the lowest person.
Exactly... it is all about supply and demand. Obviously the supply extremely outweighs the demand. Why do craft shops make less than selling straight BSS? Because it requires 0 effort on your part. All you did was select the recipes to put in there and click the button to set up the shop.
If you want to make money using a craft shop then you have 2 choices.
1. Get unique items and charge out the ying yang for them.
2. Run off all the other craft shops by having 10 or so dwarfs set up for 1a for all crafts. After several nights of not making any money, those other dwarfs will do what you are doing now and sell something else. At that point, you have decreased the supply and can start charging more.
Devianne is expensive then. 200k, heck I can get A-grade crafts at that. Multiple ones.
guy also said the person had been shouting for 2 days, and it was an avadon BP...dont think many of those are still made today so it was an off normal item. 200k wasn't unreasonable.
dev isn't over the top exspensive for craft shops. unless your looking for s armor parts. can count those dwarfs on one hand and still have room.
Dumbarse#1 and #2 offering to craft it in the back: 5a.
gee I wonder whats wrong with that. Oh thats right its okay for everyone else to make a profit except for the person who actually had the recipe in their book to craft it. Oops my bad.
Dwarf abilities have been tremendously undervalued do to players like dumbarse#1 and dumbarse#2.
imho it's all about supply and demand .... you know when i make the most adena w/ my craft shop? during the first few hours after downtime because i'm one of the first craft shop who is back online and ready to craft :p
imho it's all about supply and demand .... you know when i make the most adena w/ my craft shop? during the first few hours after downtime because i'm one of the first craft shop who is back online and ready to craft :p
And how much was that 6000 adena instead of 2000 adena?
3-5 mobs worth with no SS on can beat that plus you are getting xp and other drops to boot.
imho it's all about supply and demand .... you know when i make the most adena w/ my craft shop? during the first few hours after downtime because i'm one of the first craft shop who is back online and ready to craft :p
And how much was that 6000 adena instead of 2000 adena?
3-5 mobs worth with no SS on can beat that plus you are getting xp and other drops to boot.
:-)
Quit whining about something you are contributing to. When supply goes up (which you are adding to) and demand stays the same, prices drop. That is how the market works. If you cant grasp that concept, then I dont know what to tell you.
I might agree, however I don't think the l2 economy works that way. Supply high, demand low, dwarf still charges huge price for it Dwarf is adena farmer or bot, has no need to lower price, she can sit there with her over priced item it will eventually sell, because of ebayed money entering the market. It's not like the toon needs to unload the items quickly. Same cannot be said for a player with a 2nd account. They still need money to continue levelling.
Supply and demand works nice in a clean environment dude. But you got a lot of corruption, price inflation, and phantom shortages all based on bs.
I might agree, however I don't think the l2 economy works that way. Supply high, demand low, dwarf still charges huge price for it Dwarf is adena farmer or bot, has no need to lower price, she can sit there with her over priced item it will eventually sell, because of ebayed money entering the market. It's not like the toon needs to unload the items quickly. Same cannot be said for a player with a 2nd account. They still need money to continue levelling.
Supply and demand works nice in a clean environment dude. But you got a lot of corruption, price inflation, and phantom shortages all based on bs.
That stuff happens in RL as well. You dont think OPEC has phantom shortages? It is part of playing the market.
If there are people setting up SS shops for 1a each guess what... YOU can use them too. Is your mana not more valueable than theirs? How much mana does it cost per SS click? I bet you would be willing to get all that mana for 1a each. USE IT TO YOUR ADVANTAGE. Drain their mana and then set up shop. NO MANA = NO CUSTOMERS. You then have full mana AND got the shots crafted to sell later on. WIN WIN WIN.
Yeah we already do that. up to the number of ss crafted per click is a valid price and great for crafting a ton of SS quickly and putting it out for sale.
I can do about 9K bss with my dwarf, then drain the manufacturing section as well. I try to /eval em so they eventually go blue. :-)
I know how to work the system. The issue I am more interested in is prices on crafting C-A weapons/armors that would make a reasonable profit. Please review lance example for comparison.
"That's too much!! wah wah wah. I just paid 65mil for my LS mid-grade, i can't pay 200K for you to craft my weapon."
If you cant compete with them then find a new market. It is very simple. Craft shops are the lazy way to make money. It is like dumping your trash on your lawn and putting a cookie jar out for people to pay you when they take something. You get paid for your effort.