I just noticed that there is no "Clan" section in these boards anymore, so i'm just gonna post this here :
I've been in this game for a while (since the end of C3), and now i think i have a pretty good idea of the kind of Clan/Alliance i'd like to be in, but i'm not sure such a thing exists here :p
The thing is, at first i'm more of a RolePlayer, but now i'd really like to start taking part in Sieges, PvP, Raid Boss, getting this feeling of danger because we're at War with another Clan, etc... (in short, doing what this game was designed for ;))
My ultimate goal would be to be able to mix RP and PvP, by being the leader of a RP Clan in a PvP Alliance, or the member of a PvP Clan but with some kind of "virtual" RP sub-clan inside of it, or the leader of a RP Royal Guard or RP Order of Knights in a PvP Clan, or any other combination we could think of !
So, do you think that there is anywhere in the Lineage II world a Clan or Alliance that would be interested in such a thing ?
I think anyone who is an avid pvp'er in this game is "not" going to be a roleplayer. I've seen this in other games but given the nature of the pvp in Lineage 2 I highly doubt you are going to find it. Could be wrong. But I am betting I'm not.
Roleplaying and PvP are complementary, not contradictory. Unfortunately, neither pure roleplayers nor pure PvPers seem to see it like that, so people are forced to make a decision. It's unfortunate, really.
Roleplaying and PvP are complementary, not contradictory. Unfortunately, neither pure roleplayers nor pure PvPers seem to see it like that, so people are forced to make a decision. It's unfortunate, really.
Well, I wouldn't disagree since the very nature of RP is for people to "act in character". However as you point out people tend to lean toward one or the other.
My ultimate goal would be to be able to mix RP and PvP, by being the leader of a RP Clan in a PvP Alliance, or the member of a PvP Clan but with some kind of "virtual" RP sub-clan inside of it, or the leader of a RP Royal Guard or RP Order of Knights in a PvP Clan, or any other combination we could think of !
So, do you think that there is anywhere in the Lineage II world a Clan or Alliance that would be interested in such a thing ?
ManusJustica (or is it just "Justica"? One's a clan, the other is the alliance... they say the mind is the first thing to go) is, afaik, an RP/RP-lite alliance that regularly participates in PvP and Seiging and the like, and does quite well for themselves.
Turalyon is, last I knew, the leader of this alliance and a stand-up, swell guy in his own right.
If at all, then they probably won't be at your level.
Maline, you know i love you, but for the love of god please stop with that, these kind of remarks are one of the reasons why people leave this game...
It's like saying "you have to get bored as hell for about one year doing nothing but grinding and having no fun at all, and then, and only then, the fun starts" :eek:
Well, i've had fun at almost every level doing different things, and i know people that participate in Sieges or Raid Boss at lv30 and still have fun ! Sure, they dont get any XP in the end, because they die, get rezd, etc, but it's still a lot of fun !
ManusJustica (or is it just "Justica"? One's a clan, the other is the alliance... they say the mind is the first thing to go) is, afaik, an RP/RP-lite alliance that regularly participates in PvP and Seiging and the like, and does quite well for themselves.
Turalyon is, last I knew, the leader of this alliance and a stand-up, swell guy in his own right.
Oh cool, which servers are they on ?
Do they have a website maybe ?
"you have to get bored as hell for about one year doing nothing but grinding and having no fun at all, and then, and only then, the fun starts"
It's the truth though, whether you like it or not. Any clan interested in PvP is either cheating (which I believe you do not approve of) or also grinding with focus. This is a neccessity if you wish to compete in PvP. Anyone at your level you might have some friendly PvP with now will soon be many levels higher than you and squash you without soulshots if you go at your current pace.
Set your goals according to what you can do - and if you don't want to grind and don't want to cheat, membershiop in a PvP clan is out of the question. It's as simple as that.
Justica is on the Lionna Server. Mostly Turalyon's clan (Earnisad Templars, or however you spell that) is rpers... light rp... and not afraid of PvP. Nice clan. You should look into it.
Set your goals according to what you can do - and if you don't want to grind and don't want to cheat, membershiop in a PvP clan is out of the question. It's as simple as that.
Well, i beg to differ (otherwise i'll just have to leave the game right then and there :p)
Like i told you, i know people who had fun in PvP at "low" levels ! Sure, they got killed in the end, but if they had fun along the way, who cares ? It's just a game !
And you know me, i'm stubborn as hell ;)
Justica is on the Lionna Server. Mostly Turalyon's clan (Earnisad Templars, or however you spell that) is rpers... light rp... and not afraid of PvP. Nice clan. You should look into it.
Ooh nice, they're even on my server :cool:
I think i've heard of them before, within EoD maybe ? Do you know if they're at war with someone ? Or allied to someone who's at war with someone ? And do they do Sieges ?
I'm also starting to have contacts with the Varuna Clan from the Mirage Alliance, they seem very nice and into heavy PvP (but not so much RP maybe), do you know something about them ?
I don't know how the other servers are on this, but most carebear clans I've seen on my server have at least 4-5 noblesses now and some even have heroes (they don't always keep 'em, but at least they get 'em once in a while). The rest of the members have at least one main class 70+ and a lot of them have low-level subclasses.
So while you wouldn't be able to create a hero zerg with carebears, you can definitely get a bunch of level 70+ and ally yourself with a major power and possibly negociate a small castle if you help them get a major one.
It wouldn't be the strongest clan/ally out there for sure, but carebear clans can be strong enough now to tilt the ballance of power on a server.
And if a carebear clan can do it, I don't see why a RP clan couldn't. But you have to introduce RP to regular (non-rp, non-elite) clans and then give them the will to fight the "bad" side on your server. But don't tell them "ok now lets take 2 hours off to RP", just have them RP without them even knowing it and they'll eventually get used to it.
Trying to give the will to fight to RPers, though, would be next to impossible and a total waste of your time, since too many of them are too stubborn about staying level 1 and never ever leaving town.
There are plenty of 7x RPers actually, and plenty lower-level "carebear clans" (although chances are they'd be under your radar based on your description). There are also RPers who are interested in fighting (some of the more aggressive people I know are RPers). But the problem with RP clans is that they generally have the RP thing in common - and only that. There are simply too few of them to find a grouped clan that has 'RPers interested in PvP', because if you want to push for power and RP at the same time, you wind up with somethign weird (like the all-sacred templars that are harbouring several serial murderers on Lionna o.O).
I am just starting a clan, we intend to do a little bit of everything, but are embarrassingly lacking at the moment. However, that can't really happen without members, rofl. And it's at level 2 right now. :[
I should mention no one is over 4x yet either. T_T Woops, I fail!
lulz I was in the Einhasad Templars for a bit when I just started out, I was pretty much ignored and there are was only two occasions where I actually got to roleplay within the span of a month or two I think? And the second time was basically me talking at myself because they were involved in their own things, and was a little under an hour. So yeah. I also didn't appreciate the lack of help after WO kept targeting me and trying to PK me, either. They told me to to just "fight back, because I'd get more respect" and this guy had to be way over me because he was doing like 2k damage to me, and I was level like....30-something. :[
I am just starting a clan, we intend to do a little bit of everything, but are embarrassingly lacking at the moment. However, that can't really happen without members, rofl. And it's at level 2 right now. :[
I should mention no one is over 4x yet either. T_T Woops, I fail!
Well, my own Clan is lv3, and we already have 2 people who are over 40 in it :p
Maybe we should work something out together so we'll be lv2+3 = 5 :D
It's so small (me, my boyfriend, and our alts, with several interested in joining) because I had to be away from L2 for a month or so and just now am getting back into the swing of things, plus I'm trying out a ton of classes on alts. I have not really advertised aggressively (yet), more so just mentioned it in passing.
Ummm... if we have the same ideals and stuff, perhaps something could be worked out! The link to info about the clan is in my signature. :)
Pouf Estremos, I'm still stalking you two. I do think I have a proof of blood flying around somewhere as well if you want to go to level 3 - PM me in game (but not on Logi, she's in shopmode), or I'll try to catch you. ^^
Ummm... if we have the same ideals and stuff, perhaps something could be worked out! The link to info about the clan is in my signature. :)
It seems that our two Clans share a lot of similarities (very small Clans for now, run by two 4x BladeDancers, etc...), so... how about an Alliance ? :)
lulz I was in the Einhasad Templars for a bit when I just started out, I was pretty much ignored and there are was only two occasions where I actually got to roleplay within the span of a month or two I think? And the second time was basically me talking at myself because they were involved in their own things, and was a little under an hour. So yeah. I also didn't appreciate the lack of help after WO kept targeting me and trying to PK me, either. They told me to to just "fight back, because I'd get more respect" and this guy had to be way over me because he was doing like 2k damage to me, and I was level like....30-something. :[
Who are you?.... as I have been in Einhasad Templars, both RPing and PVPing for 2 years now and I do not recall ever seeing you in clan chat. Comming on occasionaly and just "expecting" something to happen is unrealistic. Good RP takes time to develop.. both storyline and character development. Which is why quite often we light RP (Mince getting drunk and farting in her enemy's general direction, etc.. ). But we do try and start some more serious RP sessions if one checks our boards, and actively gets involved. RPing takes involvement from all parties. It's not like jumping in and expecting the movie to start on that cue. Its like planting a seed.. and watching it grow. It does not happen overnight.
As for RP based PVP.... we have had weddings invaded by non RP clans (and they RP'd the attack as well), and we have war'd EOD (the self proclaimed evil ones on Lionna) and those those sadly did not last long as very long as they called an end to it in short order. But those occasions are very rare. See for a RP PVP to occur you have to have at least two sides that RP.. and both sides that are willing to go out and fully PVP in the process. Templars has that will.. but other RP clans on Lionna seem to balk at it. <shrugs>
As for feeling "left out" pre 40. Well that just happens... I myself just recently made a SH'er alt that I leveled to 40 in three weeks and it was mostly solo. So yes I understand how that feels in a mature clan to be an acadamy member. But once you get 40+ you start getting more involved with the clan. And that only increases as you get higher. To feel and get involved in a clan takes effort, esspecialy if you are pre 40. And if anyone wants there world handed to them on a silver platter, I would recomend the game itself is just not for you. Thats just not how this game works.
To the original poster: So if you are seriously interested in doing some PVP, allong with some RP. Feel free to drop us a line at Einhasad Templars (http://warrpa.org/Templars/)
Full RP PvP? Please, you have people like Jevin and Cervantos in Templars - I find it hard to get my mind into an RP mindset considering that and the clan's supposed background.
RPing takes involvement from all parties.
I have RPed with Estremoz. She is easy to start RP with, and a good roleplayer. Yes, roleplaying takes pushing on the party who wants to RP, but I don't really see her being too passive about trying to RP.
See for a RP PVP to occur you have to have at least two sides that RP.. and both sides that are willing to go out and fully PVP in the process. Templars has that will.. but other RP clans on Lionna seem to balk at it. <shrugs>
I would love to do that !
But my Clan is so small now that i'm not sure it would be a real interesting challenge for you guys...
Maybe if we form an Alliance with Estremoz it would be worth it ?
To the original poster: So if you are seriously interested in doing some PVP, allong with some RP. Feel free to drop us a line at Einhasad Templars (http://warrpa.org/Templars/)
Ok that's another option :)
But given that you warred EoD and that i'm one of their former members, i dont know, it may be fun if we keep in mind that it's just a game, but it may not be that much fun if it gets out of control :o
Besides, IC speaking, i'm more Lawful Evil or even Chaotic Evil at times, so i'm not sure i could fit in...
This War thing seems the best idea, but i guess the Shillien Empire has to grow a bit more for it to be fun to play :p
I have RPed with Estremoz. She is easy to start RP with, and a good roleplayer. Yes, roleplaying takes pushing on the party who wants to RP, but I don't really see her being too passive about trying to RP.
You know, i never really got that...
I never say to myself "ok, now i'll stop grinding and start RPing" :eek:
To me, this game is a MMO RPG, so i have the feeling that i kinda always RP, even when i'm hitting mobs in the Catacombs to get AA to get SP scrolls to lv up my Clan !
Most of the time, when i speak in white chat, it's always my character speaking, i dont know, it just feels natural that way to me...
Different people have different practices in approaching this, and those differences in approaching RP were one of the main reasons for my huge row with Allana and Olo. I personally can't bring myself to think that my characters would run in a circle hitting things to improve their healing skills...
The whole implication that a roleplayer should always be IC is incredibly rude.
Thanks for putting words in my mouth! Love that. A+++
Anyways, I was in ET for maybe two months, maybe? I met Cendil right off the bat and he was the nicest one there. I appreciate what he did for me, truly--gave me some adena and showed me around the castle and stuff. But I can't say that about the rest of the clan--I tried to talk to them pretty often, I said hi several times in the clan chat. I was greeted by members when I logged in, but I recall having things I said be passed over by everyone quite a bit. I brought two recruits, too (one which never got to get into the clan because ET honestly didn't seem too interested in either of them).
In an RP clan, it shouldn't matter what level you are--everyone should be able to play (roleplay, not necessarily hunt or anything, because of the extreme level difference, of course) with everyone. For an RP clan, they sure didn't do a lot of RPing--those two occasions I talked about, were the only ones I saw at ALL going on in ET. One didn't even involve anyone but me and Cendil, with Aria and Tura in passing as he showed Estre around the place. The other time, Estre was ignored. I wouldn't have been bothered so much if, you know, there had actually been other opportunities to RP with the clan, because I realize that I won't be getting attention from everyone 24/7. Through my RP with other people, though, I actually got to develop Estre and work out his history. ET did not stimulate this process at all.
I have had more interaction with members of EoD and random people around the game than I ever did with ET, and I wasn't even in the clan and didn't know those people! I formed friendships quickly, and I'm not exactly shy. Cor and I often RP with each other in white chat in hopes people join in--they do. I have played with characters of a wide range of levels, from 1-70-somethng.
But it just didn't happen there, in ET. I was bored, and ignored, probably because I was of no real value to them. The fact I kept getting targeted by WO for having their crest above my head was pretty irritating too--especially when they didn't attempt to assist me after I told them about it several times.
Ah well. I made sure to leave before I did my class change because I felt I was just there to rack in rep points. None for you, ET!
That's how I RP too! I feel kind of silly sometimes, even as I'm just running about and killing things, I'm thinking about what my character might be thinking right now, and there is never a wrong time to speak to him because he's just always IC, always in white chat. :)
And also... an Alliance sounds like a great idea! I'll talk to Cor (my co-clan owner) about it and will definitely pester you in game. :)
And also... an Alliance sounds like a great idea! I'll talk to Cor (my co-clan owner) about it and will definitely pester you in game. :)
Cool !
Then we could War ET and get killed all the time :D
No, seriously, if we do this Alliance thing, it would be great to find a Clan or Alliance to be at war with, but we'd have to find one at the same level as ours (which is high C/low B atm) for the both sides to have fun !
But yes, it would be nice to find a group. Not sure if there are really any around that are like that though. Hmmmm.
Now come on, this is Lionna, the "unofficial RP" server !
And this is Lineage II, the "hardcore PvP" game !
Let's put 2 and 2 together and find some other RP PvP Clans :p
But first, let's do this Unholy Alliance between our two Clans :cool:
First, we need a cool name! Do you have AIM or MSN or something? We can discuss stuff easier there, probably! XD
What's wrong with "Unholy Alliance" ? :p
It's the name of the current Slayer / Marilyn Manson tour !!!
Ok, seriously, i have to go to work now but i'll PM you tonight and we'll try to work something out !
Fear us Lionna, the Evil Ones are coming :D
Roleplay doesnt mesh well with pvp. Infact you even hush the word pvp next to a roleplayer and they will grease your face with a mighty and tremendous blow from their turkey bbq stick. If perhaps there was a way to have emote fights, or a simon says battle for castle control this RP/PVP idea just will never happen.
RP and PVP do go well together. If I wanted to be able to hit someone because of the storyline, open PVP allows me to do that.
The only thing is that a good portion of RPers aren't into ganking, which is a noticeable difference from PVP. I find more RPers appreciate fair PVP, which a good portion of the 'uber' crowd abhors.
It's only fair if they're the ones with the advantage, I've seen.
The only thing is that a good portion of RPers aren't into ganking, which is a noticeable difference from PVP. I find more RPers appreciate fair PVP, which a good portion of the 'uber' crowd abhors.
It's only fair if they're the ones with the advantage, I've seen.
Pfffft.
"The object of going to war is not to die for your country but to make the other die for his." - George Patton. Word to live by, as far as I'm concerned, and yes I'm a roleplayer.
(...)
By ganking, of course, I mean the full 9-man A-grade archer party coming from their clan hall with full buffs after a single D grader.
That's not PVP.
Well, is it PvP or is it ganking if an A- or S-grade archer with full buffs goes after a solo B-grade Dwarf for an easy kill ... and runs straight into an enemy group waiting for him since before he even ported to the area?
Tactics or not ... in both our examples the dead people (D-grader in your example, A-/S-grader in mine) never had a chance. They already lost before their enemies even came into targeting range. I don't see much difference here. :)
Ah, but see... that one in your example made a mistake. He went in alone. If I'd known where the A-grader was 'soloing' I would have sent a scout to confirm that for me.
Had a full party rolled in on that ambush, they might have survived longer. It's why I'm an advocate of never leaving town alone.
Of course, the major difference is that a D grader has no hope at all against a full a-grade archer party. Not to say that the D grader, in his RP sense of honor, won't charge the archers in an admittedly futile last run.
*shrug* Again, we're getting into semantics. Or, if you want, we're getting into the Art of War.
Ah, but see... that one in your example made a mistake. He went in alone. If I'd known where the A-grader was 'soloing' I would have sent a scout to confirm that for me.
It was the B-grader "soloing". And the archer did sent a scout to confirm it. The scout just didn't do a very good job at it.
Had a full party rolled in on that ambush, they might have survived longer. It's why I'm an advocate of never leaving town alone.
If more than two people would have shown up to kill the B-grader, there wouldn't be an ambush or a B-grader there for them at the time they'd arrive. :)
Basically, whoever arrived would found one of the two outcomes:
1. They're dead.
2. They're wasting their time, for there is no-one at this place.
Well, I think whether or not an RPer appreciates PvP is not so much a matter of whether it's fair or not - because as long as it's open, it ain't gonna be fair - but more whether it suits them right there or not - plenty RPers only rarely wish to PvP, and others are almost as 'bood-thirsty' as the next best PvPer.
It's difficult to draw a generalisation beyond that - all RPers are very different after all.
The question I wonder is that, as a RP PVP clan, can you be competitive?
Well, just like JK said, we would be competitive in fair PvP, but of course we wouldnt be if a bunch of S-Graders (or even A-Graders for that matter) decide to exterminate us :p
That's what i said to Aranya in another thread, about a War with ET, it wouldnt be fun for now, we'll have to wait and see if we grow bigger and badder :cool:
I believe in fair PVP... and, I don't know. I feel like the higher level you are, the more responsible you are for covering your own ***. Well... how to put it better? Obviously everyone is responsible for themselves, but the farther along you go, I suppose, the more accountable for getting ganked you are, for not being careful. Maybe. So, I don't believe in starting stuff with people who are way below or above my level, where it's not fair and I don't want to bite off more than I can chew. However.
There are a few on my list I plan to do some less than honorable things to when I can organize a big enough group/become high level enough, because of the unfair ganking, etc I've experienced. 0:)
(And that is why Caelum is chaotic neutral! Well, that isn't the only reason, but that sure as hell qualifies us as that.)
This has never occurred in L2. It's a fantasy--like the tooth fairy and the Easter bunny.
If a fight appears to be "fair"...one party will immediately bsoe and preserve their precious record (and points and exp) until they have a clear and overwhelming advantage.
If you want a fair fight go to a sanctioned boxing match......I can count the fair fights I've seen in 19 months in L2 on two or three fingers--lol.
~D~
This has never occurred in L2. It's a fantasy--like the tooth fairy and the Easter bunny.
If a fight appears to be "fair"...one party will immediately bsoe and preserve their precious record (and points and exp) until they have a clear and overwhelming advantage.
If you want a fair fight go to a sanctioned boxing match......I can count the fair fights I've seen in 19 months in L2 on two or three fingers--lol.
~D~
theres a difference between believing fair pvp CAN exist and believeing fair pvp DOES exist.
we seldom see it, so it must not exist right?
well... youve not seen a million in cash either (and if you have it may only have been once- with a pair of binoculars at a great distance, bound to a skinny white guy in a blue suit handcuffed to the briefcase.
Fair fights used to be far more common in L2, and especially on Lionna, time and time ago than they are these days. Really, the Oly and S-grade and all the stuff that came along within that same time-frame is what really messed things up.
Look at the difference between a level 76+ character (non-Champ) and a 76+ Oly Champ. The difference, with all the Oly Skills and Equipment, is night and day. Any real sense of balance or fairness really got thrown out the window then.
Hmm.. make it so Heroes can only PvP with other Heroes... otherwise, can't attack them, they can't attack you, they cant heal flagged toons, etc... except in 2-way war. =p
Well, its not exactly the player behind the pvp your against. Its you vs his lvl/gear, both can be purchased in not so eula friendly ways (take a look around on your server, you think that guy by you raided or crafted his NM heavy?).
I dont wanna sound too deceptive, there are players who put in their time and effort and earn their reputation... but pvp wise you arent fighting with tactics and reputation your fighting with 16 digit plastic cards and well organized afk-lvled players. Its demoralizing specially on lionna as you see a hero char named 101001robert010 or w/e.
the RP/pvp might possibly work if there were more players or tasteful events to compete with. There is an obvious void in the community as you essentially have a hollowed out game mechanics and very archaic quest systems to work with. Until recently, what would you do if you wanted your chars name recognized on the server? ~take over a castle? at least the olympiad is a start towards a competitive endgame. Hopefully there are more improvements in the endgame dept.
The thing is - just because you don't PvP the 10101010101011s doesn't mean you don't PvP at all. It's like the illusion of neutrality in the neutral clans - of course they have wars amongst each other, they just don't have wars with the big guys.
You don't have to rub yourself against the thorn bush to scratch an itch. :p
The thing is - just because you don't PvP the 10101010101011s doesn't mean you don't PvP at all. It's like the illusion of neutrality in the neutral clans - of course they have wars amongst each other, they just don't have wars with the big guys.
Exactly, and that's the kind of things we'd like to set up with Estremoz !
But first, one of our Clan has to get to lv5 in order to create an Alliance, and... well, that's another story that will be hard to complete :eek:
Well this was an interesting read. For those who dont know and have been following this I lead Einhasad Templars.
RP/PvP: My clan has pvped every major power on our server in a form of war or another, we have held a castle for 4 months, and all other facets of PvP. We run sweeps through assorted hunting grounds in search of enemies, and keep patroll over arease we like to keep within our controll(Ganking if you will). For RP we run many small player sponsored events, usually one a month that spans for several days if not longer, and then all the light pick up rps along the way. Most people have their own personal story lines that mingle with other peoples while out hunting. We aproach RP as a more always IN character aproach, though this doesnt always work.
Concerning Jevin and Cervantos: Definatly not the most serious rpers out there, and some of the more flamboyant and bloodthirsty, but good people, and friends.
Concerning Past Wars: We have attempted wars with other RP clans, however, the ammount of red tape involved, and the ooc BS that arose really didnt make it worth while.
Concerning Estremoz: I can name three occasions I said something in general to you and your co-horts and recieved no reply, as well as times you were loged in and didnt come to RP events. My clan doesnt RP in clan chat, because, our characters are not actually near each other in most cases with clan chat. Templars have a very open door policy, if you dont like me or how I run my clan, the doors open for you to . Concerning your instances with WO, you were not the only one being attacked, we suddenly found ourselves under the boot ofa 900lb gorilla, and it was a hell of a fight, cant take your lumps, then again, the open door policy is right there. We haev a clan hall and a 50% rez at level 30 is more than enough, little need for much more support IMO.
To the Shillen Empire: While its a beautiful thought to have rp and pvp go together, it requires something. It requires factions to create conflict, and unfortunatly, no one wants to man up and start that conflict, thank GOD W.A.R is coming, wont have the [censored] footing around you find in lineage. If you ever want to do an event, we all have plenty of 4x alt.
Lastly concerning our Alliance Manus Justica. Templars are the only RP clan there, the others are just a mix of pvp and pve folks. I am not the leader, I am just the guy who gets [censored] done.
As the leader of a large clan, I would have expected a bit more maturity. I would have also expected more effort to keep track of your members, or rather, ones that were new and needed more guidance. After all, to see the true face of a leader all you have to do is look at how he treats his lowest members~ I wouldn't have had much of an issue if I was at least informed of the most basic of information about things upon being ushered in--I was kind of just shoved in and expected to increase the numbers, really. At least, that's what it felt like. The only one who took time to explain to me some things was Cendil. (And I was only told about the 50% thing when my issues with the clan had already begun to pop up.)
That aside, you don't need to tell me to since I already left on my own accord ages ago--without you even addressing the issues that you and your "cohorts" (as you refer to my friends, LOL) had with me. I really didn't appreciate the little threats dropped here and there from them either when I logged in (that I had to figure out were directed at me because they seem to love passive-aggressiveness). Nice way to handle business.
I'm honestly not sure why you advertise yourself as an RP clan when there is so little of it. I would have been happy to work with the clan's concept and all if there was actually any substance to that "side" of the clan.
I dont want to enter into what seems to be a conflict between you too, but here are my thoughts :p
RP/PvP: My clan has pvped every major power on our server in a form of war or another, we have held a castle for 4 months, and all other facets of PvP.
Hmmm...
I still have an alt somewhere that's waiting to become a Paladin... And Paladins are Lawful Good :D
But it's an alt, and given my slow levelling rate... :eek:
Concerning Past Wars: We have attempted wars with other RP clans, however, the ammount of red tape involved, and the ooc BS that arose really didnt make it worth while.
I'm not sure i want to go into that neither, because i guess it involves the people from EoD who are still of course very great friends...
To the Shillen Empire: While its a beautiful thought to have rp and pvp go together, it requires something. It requires factions to create conflict, and unfortunatly, no one wants to man up and start that conflict, thank GOD W.A.R is coming, wont have the [censored] footing around you find in lineage. If you ever want to do an event, we all have plenty of 4x alt.
Oh i would love to start that kind of conflict, but like i said my Clan is still very small so it wouldnt be much fun for neither of us right now, let's give it some time and we could try to start something, maybe by the end of the summer ?
And yes, cant wait for W.A.R. too !!!
Lastly concerning our Alliance Manus Justica. Templars are the only RP clan there, the others are just a mix of pvp and pve folks. I am not the leader, I am just the guy who gets [censored] done.
That would also be something i'd like to do, be a RP PvP Clan in a PvP Alliance...
lol? Jevin is an excellent and capable RPer, who RPs frequently. My point was that permitting either of them into Templars sullied the clan's principles ICly. Thoroughly. They both had a reputation, at least one of them is ICly wanted by authorities.
I have been following this thread for a while, and I've kept my mouth closed for the most part, because a lot of the comments are specific and involve my clan.
I'm not here to talk about those. I'm here now to say that it IS possible to both RP and PVP. I do it all the time, as do several members of my clan.
However, being in a war against a non-RP clan is significantly harder on an RP clan that doesn't push for levels and gear. If you don't strive to be the best, things go very bad for you.
Also, equal-level PVP is great, and works quite well until someone gets a bee in their bonnet and brings out the A-graders. There's little a D-grader can do in the face of one of them but die / run.
So yes, PVP and RP can coexist. You can even be an RP/PVP clan. But you either need to make sacrifices or be prepared to lose.
That is, of course, unless you lose your integrity.
I'm honestly not sure why you advertise yourself as an RP clan when there is so little of it. I would have been happy to work with the clan's concept and all if there was actually any substance to that "side" of the clan.
Considering we just had an event a few days ago, and another one about a week prior involving the upcoming revelation of the Kamael, I would say we call ourselves RPers because we... RP? *seems like a silly concept, but maybe just me*
And Estre, I remember trying to draw you out into conversation in clan chat multiple times, but you claimed shyness. Apparently that's been solved though...
ETA- As for Cervantos, I actually forgot he'd been wanted by authorities. Frankly, I just wanted to get him back into L2 and in a friendly clan. After a few of us busted our behinds to get him equipped again, to not invite him into the clan would have been wrong.
EATA- BTW Estre, the reason Tural probably came off strong is not a lack of maturity. It's that you've been trashing our clan every opportunity you've been able to do so since you left. ET didn't fit your personality, or vice versa. It happens. No need to speak about us as if you have a chip on your shoulder...
Im a fairly hands off aproach to peoples time in game, I dont get a reply figure your afk or otherwise busy and move about my business, at the time, holding a castle, working extra shifts, trying to organize a neutral coalition and such, quite frankly, I had other things to do then figure out why someones not responding to a rp post in gen chat.
Cervantos i was actually like what is he doing in this clan, and ara was like um whats the issue? She forgot the SL, its the blond hair. Anyway we spun that, that we had finally aprehended him, and conscripted him to the Gludio Militia vs imprisoning him. Jevin was an ally mate who wanted to try a more RP centered clan again, so we took him in, he sat in our clan hall fora few weeks, then moved on as he always does, frickin nomad.
Finally not haivng the info you need? Clan notice, first thing, our forums, second thing, current events, wars and clan objectives. I can never recall you posting on our forums, but they are gone now due to an unfortunate **** so cant look back. Sadly, sometimes someone will slip through the cracks in larger more active clans, sometimes a person has to take the reigns.
ET wasnt for you, cool, we arent for everyone, having a chip on your shoulder about it, only shows your maturity about it.
Grazzt feel free to PM me anytime, we have an rp event coming up soon for lower levels(4x) and could use a few more to fill the darker side of it if your interested.
Those "RP events" seem pretty recent, because I was never around to hear about any. I also wouldn't say I have a chip on my shoulder--unless expressing my opinion qualifies as that, when I've mentioned ET about twice now publicly.
Didn't you post in EoD forums about us before quitting ET? And it would seem the majority of your posts here have some snide side comment. Additionally, there were events before the ones I mentioned. The treasure hunt, for one, I believe was around the time you came in. But I'm dropping it, because I'm a big girl. I just like defending my clan, hehe. :)
Ah, that. I don't know what I was supposed in the EoD forums after my decision to drop--"lololol hay I'm from ET wanna let me hang out here?" It kind of called for a bit of explanation, as all I'd heard at the time was they were at war together. I'm not sure why it would matter what I say to those EoD people anyway. I really think the post I made there was the least venomous of all that I've said.
But... honestly. I don't talk about this all the time, and I think that's a ridiculous exaggeration. I can only recall talking about it twice or so on this forum. I have ninety-some posts and I'm pretty sure very few of them mention it. And for the record I don't really post to any other forum besides this, my own clan's, and sometimes EoD's...
Estre, just to say as an ex-member of ET. There was RPing, there were events, maybe I wasn't really active member of clan, but I always knew about them.
As I said, I'm an outsider - and everything so far I've noticed about ET RP was ... well. The few templars (Cerv and Jevin aside) I've bumped into that I didn't know were purposefully rude to me based on the fact that I was in EoD - which would have made perfect sense, except, of course, that Amathal did not wear the EoD crest openly for even a second. The ones I do know, thin explanation or not, don't seem to fit with the clan ICly.
Saying that gearing someone and then not taking them into clan only makes sense doesn't seem like a very roleplayish thing to me either - it's perfectly possible to help someone out OOC and still not grace them with your blessings IC (I have tried to help Allana out a bit [though all my recipes failed for him T.T] and Amathal still has zero sympathies to her whatsoever).
For an RPer, I'd say it's perfectly natural to take up and drop tag as the story dictates.
As for Jevin being a nomad - he was pretty **** settled in Illum. ^_^ One of our best, I'd say.
But hey, if what you are doing suits you, then that's no problem. Everyone RPs, I suppose, in their own way and draws their own IC/OOC line. I just don't think it's right to claim you're somehow hardcore RP when much of what you seem to do is driven by OOC interests rather than IC inclanations.
The ones I do know, thin explanation or not, don't seem to fit with the clan ICly.
Well I think part of what your getting at, is due to a misconception of what the clan is actually about. The Templars of Einhasad are a military wing of an Eclesiastical organization. While it is true with alot of what people asssume about us as the 'Good Guys' since many quests will show you the church is attempting to unify aden and elmore, einhasad is percieved as the goddess of justice etc etc. However in the end, its a political entity with an agenda, and having a military arm, uses said arm to accomplish said agenda.
As a historical Snipet, The Poor Knights of the Temple of Solomon(Real Templar Knights), had a devision of soldiers called Turkoples(SP), comprised of the local populace of the middle east and most were not christian. Why because it suited the needs to bolster their forces, despite the 'relegious' natures of the people.
So this is reasons why you find folks like Cervantos, Jevin, Tobias, and a few others who are not fans of the goddess einhasad. They are payed(or in cerv and tobias case indentured) towards whatever end.
As for the rudness due to the clan tag you bare, unfortunatly, for both parties involved Malinne that is a very two way street. For EoD especially since many would not icly bare their crest in the open, not everyone can look passed that floating gif. And some templars dont ware it openly either though most do, so for us, i just roll with it, anyway unfortunate none the less.
To Jevin, yea longest I saw him stay put was in Illum thats true.
As a final word on Cerv, when i saw his name scroll in clan chat, i really was like "WTH is cerv doing here and not in my stockade?"
EoD as a whole isn't 'being brought' into this, so don't worry - I'm an ex member, I've always had my own opinions about most of what the clan does after all (often disagreeing with just about everyone), and Estremos never wound up joining. There's no sense in not speaking about things how they are/were.
And yes, the church of Einhasad has its own motives and political interests. Nobody doubts that what they do is not always 'good' (the whole burning people at the stake thing and worshipping a lie, but I digress), but it is Eva that extends an open and non-extremist hand in the churches, not the Einhasad branch. ^^
Well, there was--but like I had said before, I'd only done (and seen) it twice with them in a period I think was two months. From my experience, it was extremely sparse.
Extending a hand to a race is very, very different from extending a hand to a criminal - in fact it's pretty much made a point there that the approaches performed during the test of trust mean very little. ;p
Just out of curiosity, what does your EoD stand for? Since it is the abbreviation for Explosive Ordnance Disposal among other things ^^ The above one is what EOD stands normally for.
Just out of curiosity, what does your EoD stand for? Since it is the abbreviation for Explosive Ordnance Disposal among other things ^^ The above one is what EOD stands normally for.
Bringing this post back to some semblance of being worthwhile--this is a post for Lionna in many ways.
Yes! Rp and PvP can coexist in one clan. You will have to level like crazy (honestly or otherwise) during which time you can RP.
Pvpin'g during that period of growth is a waste of time because every level 5 clan (including the hard-core RP'ers) can wipe the map with you.
I would suggest that charting any 'meaningful' RP sort of path through a PvP game takes a vision, an exceptionally strong leadership presence, and some political saavy.
It can be done. It won't be easy. In fact, it is EXTREMELY easy to ebay up a level 5 clan in 5-6 months I would think and attract some less-than-legit 50+ players. With that core you could try to attact a larger following on a server like Lionna and then compete at the fringes of the ubers for scraps. There are any number of cheating-punk-clans (including some so-called rp clans) doing exactly that. Basically they are uber spank-blankets and you can be one of those too.
If you go more legit..as Kama says...you're going to get your *** handed to you by everyone. But your RP will be impressive.
Good luck to you. Resist the urge to chase the thundering herd of lemmings who follow the ubers and you may find something unique in the game.
~D~
Ok, now i'm confused...
And i mean really confused...
I just took a walk on Teon, to see how Grazzt was doing with his awesomely beautiful Rind Leather armor :p and i was impressed at how many players i saw there, compared to Lionna !!!
I mean, i saw players, and i saw them everywhere, whereas in Lionna i have to go look for players !
So, what should i do now with my RP PvP thing ?
Stay on Lionna, do this Clan stuff with Estremoz and have a very hard time recruting new players, or come back to Teon and resurrect the Shillien Empire there with more potential members ?
But on the other hand, Lionna is still the unofficial RP server, so maybe there are more RPers on Lionna ? But there are a lot less players, so maybe i could also find some RPers among them on Teon ?
Help !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D
To the rest of the discussion, Drakkos for the most part is correct. When I first came to lionna, i sounded alot like Grazzt, however the excisting Rp clans(of which there were many at the time) had no co-hesion or desire to actually build anything more than the WW. Tatiyana(SP?) the origan HoS former(as i recall) sounded like a leader with that will and vision, I have always be sad I never had the chance to really know her. Lineage RP, 3 years in, has not truely amounted to much server wide, and I doubt it ever will. I blame this more on the mechanics of lineage because there is so much to overcome to accomplish a global rp feel, most just dont want to bother. Wish you luck Grazzt in whichever you decide, but I doubt, much will come ofit, in my 2 years of playing, the best and most consistant rp and rp conflict i have had was with Delta House, a non rp clan =/
When I first came to lionna, i sounded alot like Grazzt, however the excisting Rp clans(of which there were many at the time) had no co-hesion or desire to actually build anything more than the WW.
Not exactly true. In the beginning, as far back as OB and Prelude, there was much talk about what could be done with RP clans in L2, and RP in general in Aden.
L2 being what it is, though, meant that we (those of us who stayed) spent a lot of time doing the same things over and over again. Levelling up newbies, gearing newbies, recruiting, showing them the ropes, running Cruma parties, setting up events and storylines.
Especially in the latter case, when you have "cast members" of storylines leaving the game every week, week after week (and this has been a "feature" of L2 since day 1)... you get tired of stopping, starting over, scrambling to find yet another RPer who has an alt to take that role, who isn't going to end up talking to themselves (as 2 different characters in the storyline) at some point... or, as I've done, play 2 opposing roles in what is supposed to be a cat-and-mouse conflict story (it's really not very interesting when you're not guessing what's going to happen next, since you're playing a bit part on one side, and a major character on the other).
There was also, for a long time, the fact that many of the best RPers in the game were not in RP clans and, understandably, the needs of their home clans came first. This sometimes put them in conflict with the other RP clans... the Anarchy/Invincible alliance, for example.
On top of all of that, the RP clans were, especially in the early days, quite often fighting other clans, or perma-reds, or whoever, just to be able to do what it is we do. This was some of the most fun I've had in L2, fighting Clan Reds for control of Floran (where the Well was held in those days)... but when several RP clans simply refused to fight, it indicated a rather wide divide within the community. Some RPers (not all, obviously) simply will not/do not PvP. It is, literally, impossible to engage them in it. Some will simply sit in town and either go AFK, or chat in their group, or whatever. After that point, developing plot-lines that might involve PvP became far too difficult to implement. There were simply too few people willing to do it.
Eventually, C2 came around, and it was like a whole new game... most anyone that was going to be in the RP community for the long-haul was in it already, in LO or HoS, or any one of a number of smaller clans... including Darkfyre, the "original" RP clan. It was during C2 that I watched the entire core of players that had founded the Wishing Well, save 2 others beside myself, leave L2 for greener pastures, never to return. Some to GW, some to EQ2, some to WoW, some simply to RL.
So most of us simply... gave up. Got tired. Got realistic. Quite frankly, while there is a lot of fun to be had in RPing, setting up and running long storylines, epic plots and conflict-driven stories is a hell of a lot of work, and often does not end up being a whole lot of fun.
making a cln is difficult...
u got to gather mats and craft u got to remember the amount of mats each player submited etc.Its also difficult to gather people in the cln "Iwant cln skillz " "leader we need clan hall" " oh leader i need a dragonic bow plzzzzzzzzzz plzzzzzzz"
Actually, running a clan isn't that hard, in the aspects you list there. If you try to do it yourself, yeah it's not going to be easy.
My clan currently has a council of three. One of them handles warehousing in addition to his other council tasks, but it's something that is worked on as a joint project.
I would say half of what we see on our clan members was built by or financed by things out of the clan warehouse.
As for "I want clan skillz" and "We need clan hall" and "I want a drac bow", well... We simply tell them "If you want it, let's go earn it. Get us rep point for skills. Donate adena so we can afford a hall."
Try outfitting 10, 12 people in D-grade without manors or Seven Signs. It works, it can be done, we did it, fairly frequently. It was an arseload of work getting someone kitted. I, myself, was in parts and pieces of Brig and Bronze into my 30s.
I managed to scam a farmer out of a Mace of Judgement for the Orc Shaman in our clan once, ages ago...probably the best single upgrade I've ever done for someone else. Of course, she quit playing L2 a month later or so.
Clan skills, halls... all of that came so much later down the road as to make no difference to what/when I'm talking about.
There was an idea, once, time ago, of making an RP alliance, where all the RP clans would be united under a single banner and maintain their storylines, conflict and all, within that same alliance. The logistics were daunting, and limitations of the game made it simply unworkable.
There was an idea, once, time ago, of making an RP alliance, where all the RP clans would be united under a single banner and maintain their storylines, conflict and all, within that same alliance. The logistics were daunting, and limitations of the game made it simply unworkable.
Not to mention egos clashed, just as they do in the non-RP clans and alliances. People unwilling to see things in any other way beyond their own, people unwilling to accept that maybe their RP wasn't as perfect as they thought.
I think u could do this role playing thing pretty well in L2. U make a clan, ur friend makes a clan. Good VS Evil or whatever, and u recruit/lvl other Role players and war eachother. Just for fun..
I dont know...im not really into the whole role playing thing, but i do think it would work..
Hmm, the basic concept you have to understand is the IC/OOC divide - that is the difference between character and player. Many people are not very good at keeping that divide (I have trouble doing it as consequently as I'd like to myself - I tend to avoid characters of players I don't like, even if I know my characters would be interested), and that makes any and all wars very troublesome.
You also have the problem of the fight between two D graders. Perfectly fine, they fight, they do their thing.
Then one of them gets upset, or didn't know about the war and screams "I got ganked by soandso!" and then the A-grade archer rolls out and toasts the D grade winner.
All because someone didn't know, or had their feelings hurt because their 2x cleric got dropped like a bad habit by a 2x artisan.
A war tag is a war tag, though the situation should be presented to new recruits, I would assume.
Quite frankly, while there is a lot of fun to be had in RPing, setting up and running long storylines, epic plots and conflict-driven stories is a hell of a lot of work, and often does not end up being a whole lot of fun.
Well, i understand what you're saying, but the new guy here has a point :
I think u could do this role playing thing pretty well in L2. U make a clan, ur friend makes a clan. Good VS Evil or whatever, and u recruit/lvl other Role players and war eachother. Just for fun.. I dont know...im not really into the whole role playing thing, but i do think it would work..
That's exactly what i was thinking, setting up something with RL friends (like i'm doing now with Aarkon).
At least you know they're not gonna run away with everything you've given them, you know where the storylines are going, and besides you can have discussions over a barbecue about what to do next :p
I'm not saying that it's impossible to do with "virtual" friends, i've done it a few times with EoD, it was a lot of fun and some of them i consider my "friends" (i hope it's the other way around too), but as you say it's harder, you dont know when the people are gonna be online, etc...
Of course, the problem i run into when trying to recruit RL friend is "what, you want me to join this bot-infested game where everyone ebays their Adena ? no way, i'd rather play WoW or Vanguard" :eek:
It doesn't work out like that, for the reason JKoster pointed out. It sounds good on paper, it doesn't end up working that way in practice because of the mechanics of L2.
Give you an example.... I like Tura, OOC, as a player, a role-player and poster on the forums. ICly, however, I don't like him so much. Why? He's human. He's a Paladin of Einhasad. The humans have basically stolen everything that was the Elves', by right. We (the Elves) brought the world out of the savagery that was left in the wake of Einhasad's destruction of the Giants, and her dismissal of Shilen. We know, as the Humans do not, that Einhasad is not their creator but, instead, they are the get of Gran Kain. Thusly, Tura stands for everything that I, an Elf, despise (rightly or wrongly).
So Tura and I decide we're going to have this storyline of conflict between followers of Einhasad and, let's call my guild Elven Light... the Eldar reborn, bent on establishing Elven dominance over the whole of the world. (This is, of course, all completely made up for purposes of this illustration).
So we have our battles and fights, meanwhile chatting and laughing about it in IM and Vent. His clan recruits new RPers, as does mine.
While he and I can certainly keep our conflict friendly, and not take any of our deaths back and forth personally... neither of us can say the same for any of the other members of our respective clans. Eventually, someone is going to get PK'd and take it personally, get bent out of shape at the XP loss, and that's when problems arise. Things generally get out of control from there.
If you're RPing between 2 people, things can be just fine... add in more, and there will always be drama. It's just the nature of RP, and that is the foundation that these games are based on.
While he and I can certainly keep our conflict friendly, and not take any of our deaths back and forth personally... neither of us can say the same for any of the other members of our respective clans. Eventually, someone is going to get PK'd and take it personally, get bent out of shape at the XP loss, and that's when problems arise. Things generally get out of control from there.
That's why you have to pick your Clan members very carefully, and that's why i said it was easier when they were RL friends...
Now, are you saying that you have an Evil RP PvP Clan that fights the Einhasad Templars ? :eek:
Why didnt you say so before ?
Why dont we make something together with us, you and Estremoz ? :p
I may not be experienced in L2, but I have several years of roleplaying under my belt. Because of this, I know where to draw the line between what my character thinks and what I think. I have seen many people in L2 do not know this. I try not to act like it makes me better than them, but honestly, sometimes the way they react to things done in jest, or rather, in roleplay where it is not real makes me laugh and shake my head at them.
I made sure right off the bat before I started accepting members into my clan that they knew that things that happen in character do not effect things out of character. It is a rule of my clan to understand that, even. If I know someone is crossing the fourth wall, then I'm going to have a talk with them and possibly boot them from the clan if they can't handle treating roleplay just as it is--a role to play. Pretend. Not real.
I'm not interested in getting involved in the gamer drama, things like what is LP doing this week and who is WO ganking. I'm not. That's why I made Caelum an RP clan. Many people talk about L2 RP like it is hopeless but I don't see it... the only thing that's really putting a huge damper on it is the jaded attitudes of many people who have been here before. I'm easily working with the status of the world, and I don't intend to plan anything huge for the most part, as far as storyline goes (though I DO have some ideas for RP events along the lines of WW to try to rouse interest)--I let them flow, because this world is unpredictable and things are hardly ever going to work out. I feel the best storylines are ones produced "accidentally" anyway.
Maybe that's why Estre is a pirate too. He does what he wants, when he wants, how he wants. The less restrictions for your storyline, the better, because in the end that means less disappointment and less conflict between players with different ideals in mind. I have shaped some pretty deep stories already in my little time here, though it's mostly been between me and Cor. I'm hoping my clan will be able to weave something deeper along with us, and just viewing where this takes us.
Hmmm. It seems I've lost my point while on my soapbox. Woops! D: I guess this is just my general view on the state of things.
Now, are you saying that you have an Evil RP PvP Clan
that fights the Einhasad Templars ?
Uh... you were *in* my clan, silly.
Why didnt you say so before ?
I did:
So Tura and I decide we're going to have this storyline of conflict between followers of Einhasad and, let's call my guild Elven Light... the Eldar reborn, bent on establishing Elven dominance over the whole of the world. (This is, of course, all completely made up for purposes of this illustration).
Why dont we make something together with us, you and Estremoz ?
Because I'm a Light Elf? Would be kinda stupid showing up to the Shilen Empire gathering, wouldn't it? I'd be the only black kid at the Klan rally...
Actually, the clan is open to all races and has two light elves (one that is Estremoz's co-commander, even). :) Grazzt is just control of the crazy Shilen worshipers inside it. XD Nothing wrong with a bit of inner conflict, but I don't know if you are even interested or if your character would still work. I didn't know Grazzt was gonna throw that out, lol.
Actually, the clan is open to all races and has two light elves (one that is Estremoz's co-commander, even). :) Grazzt is just control of the crazy Shilen worshipers inside it.
Actually, it's Zaarr who will control the Shilen Royal Guard or something, cos Grazzt (LordGrazzt on Lionna, who the hell took Grazzt before me on this server ?) still rules over his own Shillien Empire Clan, the RP story is coming :p
(see, that's what i meant by "the ingame mechanics do have effect on my RP stories" ;) )
Just to restate my feeling on it. I dont think an overarching all encompasing global story line for everyont to feed on for their rps is impossible. I dont think l2's mechanics prevent it. I have played text based games with levels stat building and the like where if you were not rezed by a cleric in X amount of time, perma death, end of story, no recourse, your dead. Something came up in real life you had to leave, sorry. 120+ players all involved in this, never an issue, everyone knew the consequences, because they played the game.
The Problem with l2 is the RP community imo is unwilling to face the consequences of conflict for whatever reason. They dont WANT to have any of the risks.
Einhasad Templars had a 6-8 month war with Delta house, completly rp(and they werent even Rpers). They kicked the living [censored] out of us all the time cause they were higher level, but its was fun as hell. They raided the wedding with my first IC wife, stole the bride, we had to fight our way to her and rescue her, lost about 35% on my wedding night IC, was the greatest thing ever.
To Kyrael, I started in c3 and the RP community has been dead since i have been here.
Basically whats left of the RP clans needs to just let the past go, and stop being afraid of exp loss, drama or whatever it is they are afraid of. If a D grader gets wacked unfairly, yeah it sucks, go grind for 15 min and get back to it.
For once, JK, i'm not gonna be on your side on this one (or maybe what i thought was sarcasm was for real, but strangely enough i dont think so :p)
The Problem with l2 is the RP community imo is unwilling to face the consequences of conflict for whatever reason. They dont WANT to have any of the risks.
Well, i DO want those kind of risks, i DO want that shot of adrenalin i got when i first played the game and thought that every red i saw wanted to kill me (some of them did, of course) so i ran and change location !
In fact, Maelyna (my Human-very-soon-Wizard) just joined a French Clan called Varuna, from the Mirage Alliance, because i know they're at war with LittlePigs and i know i'm gonna be scared each and every time i'll see our ennemies !
It's like when i watch a horror movie, i turn the lights off, let myself be spread by the mood and the feeling, and it feels great, cos when the movie stops i turn the lights back on and go on with everything else i have to do in my life !
So, in L2, i'm really looking for that kind of things because i know that after a few hours i'll just turn off the PC and... watch a horror movie :D
Basically whats left of the RP clans needs to just let the past go, and stop being afraid of exp loss, drama or whatever it is they are afraid of. If a D grader gets wacked unfairly, yeah it sucks, go grind for 15 min and get back to it.
Ok then, that sums it up for me, so if you accept alts from a casual player (which means far from being online every day), Parcifal, my Human-wanna-be-Paladin, wants to join your clan :D
The Problem with l2 is the RP community imo is unwilling to face the consequences of conflict for whatever reason. They dont WANT to have any of the risks.
The problem is that the risk imposed is well past the IC/OOC line. In character there are a fair amount of people who you would have to assault openly in the street to get to because they never, ever leave town. They don't get their advanced expertise by killing mobs, because they're craftsmen, healers, merchants or whatever. But OOCly the game doesn't permit for such progression.
There are other such instances as well, of course.
The game is RP friendly, but it does not permit progress to be made fully ICly except by mass-killing psychopath characters - which make up a relatively small part of our population as far as I'm aware.
As long as this is the case, there is a need for a basis of trust of letting OOC matters stay OOC (even some RPers I usually enjoy RPing with have broken this rule of thumb to my great dismay, forcing me to bend my character over due to something that just happened) before any RP conflict is possible. That basis of trust, I believe, does not exist between any two RP clans that have an interest in a conflicting storyline right now.
Maline, maybe its just easier for me since i play a paladin and all i can effectivly hunt in most cases are undead, and purging the world of the great unclean is what i do >.>. I have been battleing the vampire hoard in fotd for years now trying to reclaim the lost forest of hte von hellmans, after uncovering the vicious plot of the pagan cult of Triol that reduced the forest and villiage there to what it is. Before that I was attempting to free the souls of the dead defenders of the devastated castle north of Aden, before that, purging the Imperial Cemetary of the undead menace there, threatening the bodies of the great kings of the past. When with my clan we spar and practice with the defenders of the monastary of silence, I raid the pagan temple and put to the sword the vial undead minion of triol. For more relaxing times of my youth a good lizard hunt in the forest of mirriors, good steaks, Further back, testing my knighthood and steel against teh Ol Mahum invaders from gracia who plague the countryside of Dion and Gludio. Dont see why grinding cant be RP ^.^
To Grazzt, you are mroe than welcome, always nice to have more paladins =D.
And JK, for the most part, i have always respected the desire to not try and build what i have mentioned, we have discussed it time and time again, this is why, ET hasnt just wared and kept going, despite everything, anyway, I digress, back to painting and moving, stupid new house ::grumbles and trudges away::
What you describe isn't grinding IC, it's tying the grind into your storyline, which most people do - the two are miles apart.
Yes, Amathal has been in the forest of the dead on orders of the church. Yes, there was a dwarf with him. No, he did not watch her run little circles killing the same mobs without sending them anywhere, seeing how they would come back after only a few minutes.
Apart from the fact that of course a crusader of sorts is basically perfect for brainless work like bashing the same vampire although they know they can't kill it or even make it stay put for prolonged periods of time, not all characters are suitable for that.
That, and many other problems along the same vein (i.e. "No, I don't have an AFK store here. If you DID try to mug me in the street, I would **** well Return to the temple, and I doubt you'd have the nerve to seize or slay a priest there."), make such a conflict impossible unless all parties involved are, as I pointed out, friendly and on the same wavelength.
The Problem with l2 is the RP community imo is unwilling to face the consequences of conflict for whatever reason. They dont WANT to have any of the risks.
I would say this is sort of a broad brush statement that isn't ALWAYS true.
I love RP in this game and I've never walked or shied away from a fight. I've never once used a BSOE and I simply don't care if I die in wars or otherwise. I left the Wishing Well last Tuesday to fight 2 S-grade Orcs! (and got dropped quickly I might add--lol)
If you met my son in this game (also an RP'er) you'd meet one of the most militant youngsters on the server (and Lord help us when he gets to A-grade).
I've known a number of "RPers" who didn't hesitate to fight anytime.
I'll agree Tura that your comment about RP CLANS is generally true--but I'd say that was for a rather obvious reason.
When you start logging onto RP home sites you'll see clear rules for MANY of them that say "we will ban you or toss you if you bot or buy adena"...meaning that progress is slower for the usual RPer.
Fewer RPers are in their mid 70's with boss jewels--let's face it.
A lot of the RP clans know that to have the space and time to level so they MIGHT play more end-game content--they have to walk softly, precisely because it takes a long time for a legit player to hit high 60's.
Does that make the clan carebear? Yeah--probably.
But individual RPers? I could name a few that will fight at the drop of a hat and who will throw the damm hat down themselves (Lol).
Mostly you're right of course when describing the "RP Community"...but then it's an uphill struggle to chart an RP clan through a PvP game. I'd say harder than going the leet-punk route.
~D~
EH all in your aproach maline, for me, i have killed many vampires and they stay quite dead, just, theres alot of them >.>
Its really your choice in how you view it, and its totally cool either way as far as im concerned.
To drakkos yeah your right, it is a broad general statement, as it has been a general experiance.
As for long time for legit players to hit high 60's? Not at all, not anymore, i have a whole crew of new players, 3-4 months in lineage, all early or nearly 60's. Granted the clan hall we have gives awesome buffs and access to a ton of hunting spots for faster leveling than some people have access to, that may be it, however nc has made leveling to A grade much easier than it was 2 years ago.
Boss jewelry isnt necessary to have rp pvp. Nor do i know many pvpers who have it. My clan doesnt allow botting, granted I have a no ask no tell policy on purchasing adena simply because i dont care to police, its far to much of a headache to try and uncover it imo and i have better things to do. Anyway, there is no reason rp clans couldnt have a global story line, couldnt have conflict, there is no reason you cant have a very rp condusive atmosphere, but simply put it has never wanted by the rp community.
A comman place to RP, a meeting place, where you could go for pick up rp's has been mocked since day one, even though time and time again it has been asked for.
RP clans to have a similar rule set for some basic things, never done, hell even decent communication about events or events in general have been shuned or squashed by the powers that be, thats about all there is to it really.
I choose to see everything not necissarily as the game portrays, Alinea Hecate my SE, or Galadhwen Sarogon my TK to be both operate a store front in giran market for the templars, wrather than siting in the street with a sign over their head, but again, to each their own.
And that means, once again, you are not actually grinding ICly but making things up as you go - which puts us exactly back at square one: Because you have to make something up, and because you can't see what's actually going on, conflicts are bound to arise. As pointed out much earlier, the mere lack of checking if someone is wearing their tag openly, if there are even present IC, is so common in any clan (I do it myself) that unless you're really friendly and know each other, things are bound to rub raw.
Eventually, C2 came around, and it was like a whole new game... most anyone that was going to be in the RP community for the long-haul was in it already, in LO or HoS, or any one of a number of smaller clans... including Darkfyre, the "original" RP clan. It was during C2 that I watched the entire core of players that had founded the Wishing Well, save 2 others beside myself, leave L2 for greener pastures, never to return. Some to GW, some to EQ2, some to WoW, some simply to RL.
ahhh Darkfyre .. them were the days haha *sniffle* miss that old crew. I still have all them on my friendlist, Inoxe, Bethewen, Caesura karashana hah
I have to admit I think Darkfyre was probably the heaviest english based rp clan on Lionna. I don't recall being ooc much at all ;of course, being IC or OOC all the time I think has a lot to do with the type of RPers you have around you.
Darkfyre was all-IC, all the time... mostly. There was some OOC chatter in clan chat, but sparse, at best. That, to me, is the definition of an RP clan. I don't really care to know anything about you or your real life. Characters are all that interest me.
To come at the global storyline from another angle....
I dont think an overarching all encompasing global story line for everyont to feed on for their rps is impossible. I dont think l2's mechanics prevent it. I have played text based games with levels stat building and the like where if you were not rezed by a cleric in X amount of time, perma death, end of story, no recourse, your dead. Something came up in real life you had to leave, sorry. 120+ players all involved in this, never an issue, everyone knew the consequences, because they played the game.
Yes, because that was "the game". That is not, however, "the game" in L2. If it were, no one would make it to D-grade.
The Problem with l2 is the RP community imo is unwilling to face the consequences of conflict for whatever reason. They dont WANT to have any of the risks.
Because a level 20 Assassin cannot kill a level 60 anything, no matter how its set up. Most of the ideas proposed for conflict-based storylines (though there haven't been many, in all honesty) have generally involved a rather large/higher level group of people against... everyone else. For some reason, or another.
With the idea that I think you have, it certainly wouldn't work, or be fun for many of the participants, as the disparity in numbers is too great.
Einhasad Templars had a 6-8 month war with Delta house, completly rp(and they werent even Rpers). They kicked the living [censored] out of us all the time cause they were higher level, but its was fun as hell. They raided the wedding with my first IC wife, stole the bride, we had to fight our way to her and rescue her, lost about 35% on my wedding night IC, was the greatest thing ever.
Sure... but that's hardly a plotline, that's a chapter. Some of the most fun I've had with RPing was a purely social event between about five or six people.
Even so, what you described here isn't RP, it's PvP that you applied an RP label to. For a lot of people, getting the crap kicked out of them for 6 to 8 months is not their definition of fun.
Different strokes for different folks, I guess.
An event like you described would be fun for some, and others would not have fun in such drama. You can't please everyone all of the time, and can't expect everyone to like the same things that you like.
To Kyrael, I started in c3 and the RP community has been dead since i have been here.
I wouldn't say that. I would surmise, however, that it is possible that they're simply not interested in fighting you or they're simply not interested in getting involved in any of the storylines proposed so far from any quarter.
Some people aren't into the storylines of religious conflict, or racial conflicts, or whatever cliche we want to mention. Some people just aren't into conflict at all, and play this game as a social outlet, for the people they've met and friends they've made. Some purely play for the market and the economies, and enjoy RPing as, I dunno, some guild-mogul or something.
Basically whats left of the RP clans needs to just let the past go, and stop being afraid of exp loss, drama or whatever it is they are afraid of. If a D grader gets wacked unfairly, yeah it sucks, go grind for 15 min and get back to it.
Easy to say when you're not that D-grader... but that really has nothing to do with RPing, that's PvP. What would be "RP" is if that D-grade DE Assassin, through plotline and story and convincing IC interactions, actually makes it into your castle and sticks a knife in your neck as you're sitting on the throne (either the golden one or the cold white one, doesn't matter). Looks like Innandril's out a king, neh?
Yeah I always wondered why UO was far more successful in the RP realm than L2 could ever dream to be. While its partly the drama it is also alot more about the size of the player base. When I played UO Catskills server back in UO's hayday the RP player base was I'd say atleast 3-4 times the size of Lionna. There were RP "towns" (both ficitious player made towns and real towns used as the center of RP groups). My clan was heavy RP and was hated by a lot of clans some of whom would not even talk to us but yet there was still plenty of action and storylines. So I guess the only conclusion I see is it was part game mechanics and part populous. Those that RPed Orcs were heavy heavy pvp and their gear sucked crap but yet they could win. That was primarily because it was pretty easy to be balanced between the elite and those that RPed since its a skill based game not a level based game. Also, you gained skill via pvping better people as well as better mobs and via repition which helped easily balance game play.
In L2 there is no balance as you cannot just swing a sword for hours on end and become as good because with a level based system all skills are lumped in a package
and again player base... If you have a huge player base it compensates for the differences in personalities that prevent people and entire clans from working together in order to have mutual fun.
All very good points, Maleficuss. I, personally, did not play UO for any length of time, being drawn to EQ instead, but I remember that, after a relatively early point, it didn't matter if you died and lost everything you had, with your corpse dismembered and displayed on the walls of your killers' guild hall... re-equipping was a quick and painless process, and having spares around was a common thing.
Yeah - for a good RP game, I'd need...
1.) Graphics. I'll go for a mailing list/board RP if I'm not going to be looking at eyecandy. This includes emotes (well, not exactly ample in L2, but what can you do) as well as the basic look of the game.
2.) A decent chat system (Granado Espada killed its RP potential by inability to make single characters say things. >_<; )
3.) Open PvP. I think it's an absolute neccessity for RP - although of course, it also means you must RP with people you trust (i.e. people know if they flag on me in RP with their lowbies, even if I could, I won't hit back hard enough to hurt).
4.) Ease of IC/OOC disconnection. Most major games (including Lineage II) do everything to prevent this, as it is a definite stopping factor for getting people 'hooked'. This mainly means ease of recreating an IC power and wealth balance, etc. Not much fun playing a poor character just because you're a poor player, after all.
I'd say No 4 is the reason we don't have more people RPing in L2.
Even so, what you described here isn't RP, it's PvP that you applied an RP label to. For a lot of people, getting the crap kicked out of them for 6 to 8 months is not their definition of fun.
I dunno, I'd say getting kidnapped, forced into DH's clan hall (in Dion at the time), moved to Floran, and the Templars attempting and succeeding in a dashing rescue non-PvP and total RPing. Aranya's still scarred from unicorns after one of the DHer's unicorn's hoofed (if that's the term? O.o) her. >.>
While there obviously can be RP without PvP, in this game one needs to understand that the two can (and should, imo, being L2), go hand in hand.
Doesn't sound like you were dealing with non-RPers there then. Just because they don't understand themselves as RPers or don't go by the label doesn't mean they aren't - and if they were doing that kind of thing, they are. So you did indeed have a clan war with an RP clan, involving RP.
Darkfyre was all-IC, all the time... mostly. There was some OOC chatter in clan chat, but sparse, at best. That, to me, is the definition of an RP clan. I don't really care to know anything about you or your real life. Characters are all that interest me.
Woah i would really hate that ! :eek:
And still, i consider myself a RPer, so i guess it just shows there are different kinds of RPers :p
What would be "RP" is if that D-grade DE Assassin, through plotline and story and convincing IC interactions, actually makes it into your castle and sticks a knife in your neck as you're sitting on the throne (either the golden one or the cold white one, doesn't matter). Looks like Innandril's out a king, neh?
Well, if i wanted to do that... no, as a matter of fact, when i wanna do that, i gather my friends and we play some good-ol pen-and-paper Dungeons & Dragons ! (which i still do once a week btw, and it's still as great as it was 20 years ago when we started playing at school :cool:)
I'm not sure that such a thing can be played in a "video-game" like L2, where obviously your choices are much more limited than when you play a real RPG (where the only limit is your imagination and the DM's one).
That's why i guess i'm more on the side of Turalyon when it comes to RPing in this game, we take the game mechanics and wrap them up with some RP story or background, and that's why i like to call it "casual RP", i think that "real RP" applied to a game like this would just sound... fake :eek:
I'm not sure that such a thing can be played in a "video-game" like L2, where obviously your choices are much more limited than when you play a real RPG (where the only limit is your imagination and the DM's one).
That's why i guess i'm more on the side of Turalyon when it comes to RPing in this game, we take the game mechanics and wrap them up with some RP story or background, and that's why i like to call it "casual RP", i think that "real RP" applied to a game like this would just sound... fake
I have found that MMOs offer an anonymity to RP that no table-top or LARP game can ever hope to compete or recreate.
There are things you will never say to your friends, even in an RP setting, when you're sitting across the table from them, and storylines you'll never even consider, character development that will never happen... because you have to look at them when you do it.
This is one reason why I don't like to know too much about the OOC lives of the people I RP with in MMOs, this one or any other. That exchange of information, back and forth, colours the character interaction, and affects how some people will treat the other, treating the character like the player.
I think, in many ways, the open nature of an MMO world actually allows more freedom to do things, from an RP-standpoint, than any TT setting... excepting maybe Rifts, but I digress...
And it is because of this that I think people are not quite grasping the idea between RP and RP-with-PvP and PvP. RP, by its nature, ignores game mechanics. In RP, you don't survive being hacked on 7 or 8 times with a Dragonslayer unless it is important to the storyline that you do so. In a true RP setting, you die when the storyline says you die. No sooner, no later. In table-top RPing, or LARPing, this is accomplished by a few simple statements, maybe a narration of the scene or an enactment thereof, in LARPing, and the plotline continues from there with the remainder of the characters to react and carry on in the wake of this event. Obviously, in some games (V:tM being just one), death is not a career-ending injury for most. In other settings, where immortality is not contagious, death has a more meaningful impact.
In RP-with-PvP, it's a little more freestyle, but the general idea is there. The storyline progresses to a certain point where, eventually, those involved will come to blows. Depending on the storyline and the person directing it, some of these people *must* die in these sorts of scenes; it's vital to the plotline. Some of these people have to survive for the same reasons.
Anything outside of this, where the battle is an anything-goes, winner-takes-all scenario, that involves XP loss, Karma (potentially) or the like... it's not RP, it's simply PvP, no matter how many thees and thous you spout during the fight. If you're going with this, then there is no "release to town". It doesn't really make a lot of sense if, in the course of your plotline, a party of the other side's archers roll in, wipe your party... and you're ready to fight again fifteen minutes later. Um, hello? You *died*.
It's really hard to maintain a coherant, logical RP storyline when everyone, or even just one side, keeps getting killed. Especially if its a fairly frequent thing, rather than a once-a-month event or similar. Eventually, people will, oocly, sit up and say why the [Censored] are we doing this? Where's the fun in losing all the time?
Ooh very interesting comments here, and good start for a very interesting discussion :)
There are things you will never say to your friends, even in an RP setting, when you're sitting across the table from them, and storylines you'll never even consider, character development that will never happen... because you have to look at them when you do it.
Well, the friends i play RPG with are friends i know for so long (one of them is even my own brother) that we dont have that problem, really.
I remember playing Vampire : The Masquerade in a very "unpolitically correct" way (i wont go into details, dont worry Alyra :p), and, because they're such good and long-time friends they know me and they know that it's just "make-believe"...
This is one reason why I don't like to know too much about the OOC lives of the people I RP with in MMOs, this one or any other. That exchange of information, back and forth, colours the character interaction, and affects how some people will treat the other, treating the character like the player.
Given your previous point, that makes sense of course, but that's why i like to play with "mature" players (i'm 35 :confused:) because it's much more easier to draw this important line between player and character.
I think, in many ways, the open nature of an MMO world actually allows more freedom to do things, from an RP-standpoint, than any TT setting
Hmm...
But then, that's what i meant by "fake".
In a TT RPG, everything happens in your imagination, so if you want to go to that bartender and kill him, nothing's stopping you from doing it, and the DM will adjust accordingly.
Here in Lineage II, if for whatever reason you wanna kill Trader Lara in Dion, how will you do it ? You could very well "say" or "think" that you've jumped over her table and killed her, but nevertheless she will still be standing here right in front of you ! Isnt that really... fake then ?
RP, by its nature, ignores game mechanics. In RP, you don't survive being hacked on 7 or 8 times with a Dragonslayer unless it is important to the storyline that you do so. In a true RP setting, you die when the storyline says you die. No sooner, no later.
Exactly, and that's precisely why i think it is not compatible with a "video-game" where you dont have complete control over everything...
Anything outside of this, where the battle is an anything-goes, winner-takes-all scenario, that involves XP loss, Karma (potentially) or the like... it's not RP, it's simply PvP, no matter how many thees and thous you spout during the fight.
LOL at the "thees and thous" :D
But i dont quite agree... It can be RP as long as it's included in some RP scenery... As a matter of fact, we seem to have two opposite approachs : you first start to think of the RP setting, and then you try to fit the game into it, where i see where the game takes my character then build a RP story over it ! Or, if i come up with a RP story first, i make it so i can use the game mechanics to play it !
It's really hard to maintain a coherant, logical RP storyline when everyone, or even just one side, keeps getting killed. Especially if its a fairly frequent thing, rather than a once-a-month event or similar. Eventually, people will, oocly, sit up and say why the [Censored] are we doing this? Where's the fun in losing all the time?
True, but that's only if you involve yourself into heavy PvP i guess, that's why i loved it when they introduced the Duels system, this is a great way for us RPers to put some PvP mechanics into our RP stories without anyone being too frustrated in the end !
Duelling could have been a good thing, but duels don't allow enough time. Ever seen a SK and a TK or SwS try to duel each other? If they're similar grade/gear, it's like watching paint dry, and, usually, neither side wins in only 3 minutes.
Though, to be honest, the duelling system is so new, and the RP community so small, scattered and, at this point, divided into its little cliques, that I'm not sure it matters.
You are correct, though, I approach things from an RP standpoint and then fit the game into it. This is why I, unlike some others, maintain my stance on original/OB game lore. Despite what revised NPC dialogue says now, I maintain that, yes, LE really are born from the Mother Tree (which we were) and DE dress the way they do because, amongst other things, Shilen is the goddess of sexuality (per the Celebrant standing next to her statue in the Temple of Shilen outside DEV... at least in OB!)... also, as a fertility goddess, Humans once practiced live sacrifices to her (I believe this quest still exists on TI).
Now, as far as PvP goes, that was more of a comment regarding Tura's idea, if I understand it correctly, a global, conflict-driven RP storyline. Obviously, not every storyline has to be that way, though all of the proposed over-arching plots I've seen suggested in the past 3 years have all been centered on some conflict or another... LE vs DE, DE + Orc vs All, and other permutations of the RvR theme.
as a fertility goddess, Humans once practiced live sacrifices to her (I believe this quest still exists on TI).
Those were not because she is the fertility goddess, but because she is the goddess of water IIRC. Young girls were thrown into the sea in order to appease her, now they use representative dolls.
Duelling could have been a good thing, but duels don't allow enough time.
100% agree.
Ever seen a SK and a TK or SwS try to duel each other? If they're similar grade/gear, it's like watching paint dry
:D
Though, to be honest, the duelling system is so new, and the RP community so small, scattered and, at this point, divided into its little cliques, that I'm not sure it matters.
Yes, i really dont understand why this Duel system isnt used all the time by RPers ??? Afaik, there's even a Party Duel system or something !!! What more do we need ?
You are correct, though, I approach things from an RP standpoint and then fit the game into it.
Ok, but you didnt answer my question : doesnt it feel kinda fake then, when the story you make up in your mind doesnt have any impact on the environment you see ingame ?
yeah I have to agree with Grazzt. For me its never been an issue to play my characters be it LARPS or Table top as I intend. I've only ever had one problem with ic/ooc problems. I've had far more issues with people over the internet not being able to separate ic vs ooc. So perhaps irl I've been lucky.
Unlike Grazzt and more like Ky I prefer full immersion or what I typically call heavy RP. I like light RP the least generally because if I have an evil character i really cannot play them like I'd like to and Darkfyre aside I've never met or been in a clan that could tolerate the way I'd really play an evil character, so I am stuck with either being of a "good" or "neutral" alignment with a selfish personality.
Yeah - no clan can really back up a permared in the current political scape - even if that permared only goes ICly after other roleplayers, people aren't willing to put up with it, and will retaliate as fully as they can OOCly.
Nah there has never been an over arching global story line to be attempted. The things you are refering to were small time events imo. The DE raid and LE villiage for pre 20 class's and a similar event for orcs against humans on TI.
Since tatyana made a fairly risky event that was so horribly shot down in c3 i have made no effort to try and push anything greater, quite simply, its not wanted.
As for what global plots could or should be, its quite simple, just follow the story the game provides and fill the roll of emerging clans, and powers on your server. For instance since most of us here are lionnians, lionna can have such a twist on what its non RP clans are doing to fill political entities in the game, and provide an awesome backdrop to play in.
MMO rp and Death are a difficult thing to reconcile ill admit, but, in the end its all in fun.
To Grazzt i take the same aproach, I can not make the game something its not, i can however, take what the game is, and make it believable in an rp setting.
As to our war with the non rpers, there were two members of Delta house who rped, the rest did not, however the whole clan, made an attempt to rp, because of the two who did, and they really had fun with us. The rp wasnt always the best, but they really put a good effort into trying and itw as better than anything we had rped with 'rp clans'.
Lineage 2 has a great story, plenty of outlets to have clan interactions in an rp setting, it simply takes those with the will to do it, or make something of it, and frankly that isnt here, people like grazzt come along, hell myself maybe even a few years ago, but, its frankly, jsut not going to happen, be it dynamically different views on what rp should be, or just taking the drama of a conflict and teh exp loss of a war to seriously.
Well since I was in HoD when that "issue" occurred I can tell ya Tura part of the reason Tatiyana's idea never happened was because she started trying to make the event happen without consulting the people who were leading the clan at that time namely Phunbaba.
At that point whats-his-face was in your clan and Phunbaba was going to have nothing to do with him. I am not sure how much animosity Phun had against the Templars before Tatiyana's event posting on the L2RP forum, but when you started in on what he felt as a verbal assault towards him it was never gonna happen at that point. Although even if she had discussed the idea I can not say for sure Phun would have gone for it nor if I could have convinced him to try it, since I am still unsure when he started disliking Templars..
I only vaguely remember that event, its been so long, but I do remember that it was something Tati was putting together... but not talking to many people about. I wasn't even involved in the plotline, wasn't asked to be involved, and had no real idea what was going on with it and where it was going.
From what I understand, a lot of people weren't told, weren't even given the overall plotline, theme or feel, and it was more of a "I've got a really great idea for a story that starts here, I'll let you know when things will happen"... and then that was that.
The inner workings of that I had no insight into, and no one asked me to mediate or help out, so I went on my merry way.
Ok, but you didnt answer my question : doesnt it feel kinda fake then, when the story you make up in your mind doesnt have any impact on the environment you see ingame ?
Nothing anyone does, RPer or not, has any impact on the environment of the game. Mobs respawn, castles are rebuilt in an instant, even the humans never age... it's all fake.
On the other hand, I don't RP with NPCs or Mobs. I RP with other players. These are the people I can impact, who's opinions I can change (for good or ill) remaining IC. Some people will really like Kyrael... some people think she's insane, others just find her insanely annoying.
As far as a over-arching plotline goes... I'm not sure there's enough people, at this point, in the community to pull off something conflict-driven. We'd have to talk to Linna and Adorna as well, neither of whom post on these forums, and Zaph, too. None of them are PvP fans, this I know for fact. If it was going to be conflict-driven, or even involve conflict, Im quite certain it would have to be pre-arranged, scripted and party-duel based.
On the other hand, I'm not sure there's enough who could compete with ET in a PvP match, duel-based or not, in the RP community. Losing all the time isn't fun for a lot of people.
Well Mal from my perspective on the event in question, it was stated tatyana and others of the hand were going to sacrafice folks. ET at the time aws completly the underdog in any pvp situation, so we went recruiting like minded rp guilds, or even unlike minded, but those that would apose such a sacrafice. Avant Guard, Dark Tide Pirates and some RB even signed on to help us stop the sacrafice. From what i gathered Phuns pms lit up with people going omg omg omg what are you doing why is the hand sacraficing people (which to me is obvious as the evil clan >.>) however this leads into the points where i bad mouthed the hand on forums, which was basically saying, look if you guys are evil, why dont you um be evil? All this advertising, and i mean every thread that had a hint of RP in it was "and come see the premier evil clan" and as the upstart trying to get some good rp going on this server at the time, i was pretty disgruntled that the product didnt live up to the advertising.
Phun had a talk with me, threatened to wipe my clan off teh face of the planet in an ooc gank war(which Hand was more than capable of). I basically said, if thats what you really want go for it, or we can try and actually get some rp on this server, it ended with early amarican isolation style polotics that have never really been broken. As to "whats his name" and the disdain for him among the hand, what better reason to go to war, then to kill an [censored] you hate? figured it would only help some conflict, but i digress.
Again these views are from my perspective on the situation and about 2 years old, so i apologize for any bad info.
As to an overarching plot, it doesnt take many, and the conflict doesnt need to be all out war. But really, if you are a clan in aden, you are a political entity vieing for some resource or power in the landscape, that alone should lead to enough of a global plot with the prospect of conflict, if the rp ever went that way.
As to scripted rps? No thanks, if i want to read a fantasy novel i will. If i want to role play, i dont need a script. To duel system, yes i figured thats what most would use to protect rp and exp, as to competing with Templars, no most probably cant now, but once upon a time we were the underdog and got in quite a few scuffels with DTP and then again with DH, its all in perspective and your will toh ave fun.
As to scripted rps? No thanks, if i want to read a fantasy novel i will. If i want to role play, i dont need a script.
Same here.
as to competing with Templars, no most probably cant now, but once upon a time we were the underdog and got in quite a few scuffels with DTP and then again with DH, its all in perspective and your will toh ave fun.
Right, so the Shillien Empire will be the Evil underdog for now, but some day we'll rule the server and you'll all fear us :D
Yeah I can dig how you felt your bubble being bursted in what appeared to be a by a sudden 180 degree turn. I think the largest problem was we (namely, Phun, Akalith, Mephy and myself did not frequently monitor the L2RPA forum.) So Tatiyana's post had time to inspire people and allow their hopes to be dashed when those that were leading HoD at the time realized a clan decision hell a RP community decision was made without their consent or knowledge. I vaguely remember talking to Tatiyana about an idea and I thought it would be interesting. Who knows maybe I was the cause of all this. Maybe she took our conversation to mean I'd talk to Phunbaba for her but who knows.
Unfortunately at that time Tat the player had just gotten back on her feet from a serious RL situation so here leadership in the clan was no longer there nor did she want it back. If anything she became sort of a "English Monarch" or figurehead for the clan.
Unfortunately that who crappy mess boiled down to lack of communication no matter how you seung it :(
I did like her idea but I could not follow along with her because her methodology (ie going over Phun's head) was wrong. And trust me I argued vehemently with Phun that any opprotunity to kill mister phantom summoner would be a gift from God lol, but Mephy was absolutely against associating with him as were others who had been wronged by him, so why create a maelstrom of drama within the clan is what things boiled down to.
Also now that I remember for Phunbaba his r/l started down a bumpy road so in some defense of his attitude towards the Templars at that time there were also I think external problems which helped further his aggressive stance.
As to scripted rps? No thanks, if i want to read a fantasy novel i will. If i want to role play, i dont need a script. To duel system, yes i figured thats what most would use to protect rp and exp, as to competing with Templars, no most probably cant now, but once upon a time we were the underdog and got in quite a few scuffels with DTP and then again with DH, its all in perspective and your will toh ave fun.
Scripted battles, not necessarily "Ok, from 4-7 PM on alternating Thursdays, you need to be IC... OOC is ok at any other time".
What I mean by scripted battles is that it's not a stacked 6x PvP party that rolls out and jumps a bunch of LO 3xers who are PvEing in PH. It's a battle at a pre-arranged time and place, based around some particular event in the storyline.
Well Mal from my perspective on the event in question, it was stated tatyana and others of the hand were going to sacrafice folks. ET at the time aws completly the underdog in any pvp situation, so we went recruiting like minded rp guilds, or even unlike minded, but those that would apose such a sacrafice. Avant Guard, Dark Tide Pirates and some RB even signed on to help us stop the sacrafice. From what i gathered Phuns pms lit up with people going omg omg omg what are you doing why is the hand sacraficing people (which to me is obvious as the evil clan >.>) however this leads into the points where i bad mouthed the hand on forums, which was basically saying, look if you guys are evil, why dont you um be evil? All this advertising, and i mean every thread that had a hint of RP in it was "and come see the premier evil clan" and as the upstart trying to get some good rp going on this server at the time, i was pretty disgruntled that the product didnt live up to the advertising.
Kinda working backwards here... you have to understand that, to some people, and even some RPers, there are "degrees of evil", and degrees of a comfort zone in which they will RP. For some RPers, they do "evil" exceptionally well, and I am thinking of a friend of mine from EQ2 as I write this... she does "sinister" better than anyone I have ever RP'd with in 20+ years of gaming.
However, not everyone handles this well in their RP. They don't handle even the ideas of virgin sacrifice, baby sacrifice, cannibalism, murder and [censored]... all evil things, to be sure... very well.
Most people, probably because of the conditioning caused by typical fantasy fiction, movies, single-player games, etc. have a very firm belief in the ultimate victory of Good. Me... not so much. I'm with the Spaceballs on this... Evil will always triumph because Good is dumb.
Given that, a lot of people, from what I remember of the bits and pieces I heard of the story on L2RPA were not really keen on some of the themes and elements of the storyline. This also, as I recall, stopped a previous storyline Tatiyana had in mind... too hard-core for some, I think, too dark, too violent, too perverse, too.. something.
Let's face it, though... HOS and EOD have been the only evil RP clans in L2. Darkfyre wasn't evil, in nature or in character. LO never has been. Illuminaire, Caelistis, DTP... the list goes on. The "worst" we ever got, to use a D&D concept, was Chaotic Good and maybe a Neutral with Evil tendencies... but HoS/EoD are the first (and so far only) proclaimed Evil RP clans.
Here's the thing about Good and Evil in L2 though... they don't really exist in concrete forms. Everything is a shade of gray, and highly objective. So very few organisations, including the Temple of Shilen, are truly "evil" in their doings, though this Temple might be the closest thing to Evil in Aden.
There are quite a few people who would call Einhasad evil, for her practice of genocide, her treatment of both Shilen and Eva (she didn't offer the job to Eva, she threatened her into taking it... prior to this, Eva was the Goddess of Music), and her perpetuation of the lie that is the foundation for Human society. After all, she did *steal* Gran Kain's race!
As to scripted rps? No thanks, if i want to read a fantasy novel i will. If i want to role play, i dont need a script. To duel system, yes i figured thats what most would use to protect rp and exp, as to competing with Templars, no most probably cant now, but once upon a time we were the underdog and got in quite a few scuffels with DTP and then again with DH, its all in perspective and your will toh ave fun.
Well, yes... but that was then and this is now. Staged/Planned/Scheduled duels and battles are the only compromise I see at the moment for getting the non-PvPers in the RP community involved. Without such concessions, I don't see it happening at all.
And while I fully agree with you, I have to say that Illum contained some of the probably most wretchedly evil people we have around - Analosi, Jevin, Amathal are all certainly people who stop at very little to reach what they want, although it is more obvious in some than in others (not to say: Analosi was, and Amathal still is, probably better at hiding their tendencies than Jevin :p Or as it were, have more interest in doing so - Jevin plain out breaks things he doesn't like, without any regard for fairness or justice).
But for an evil clan, it takes more than that. It takes cooperative victim players (you can't actually kidnap or kill someone against their will after all), it takes a great respect for the OOC/IC line (because a clan most certainly would either need a massive amount of levels as backup or some degree of secrecy, which only a fine division of IC/OOC processes can guarantee), and so much more.
It's added to the fact that many characters who definitely have sinister motives are absolutely adorable or nice on the surface (I don't quite know who to cite on this - I guess Jhaelle sort of fits the pattern).
All in all, 'evil' is rough to do. Especially in a world where you don't get the 20 bonus levels villains seem to receive in single player RPGs for free. :p
All very good points, and quite a valid view on the difficulty of being "evil".
Evil has so many faces, so many varieties, and so many ways of, well, being evil... but it's hard to pull off. In an RP setting like L2, unless it's a completely insular circle, it requires so many other things to make it effective, and often many of these things aren't available. Though, really, if EoD was out in the swamps near the DEV practicing pagan rituals, human sacrifice and giving prayers to the Dread Powers... how on earth would a group like ET ever hear about it? In reality, they probably never would... but to get plotlines rolling, some contrivances are to be expected.
That storyline was attempted, but canceled due to specific involvement of certain individuals that had managed to bypass the IC/OOC line and were genuinely loathed by certain other people.
While some say "This is a great opportunity for war, to kill the person you hate," most of us who hated him would rather simply ignore the fact that he exists (though some of us would find ways to PK him off the server, no matter which server (or game) he rerolls to).
When tempers flare because of OOC actions toward those who matter to us, there are two choices: do something that ends up getting you banned from the game (language, harassment, etc), or just plain stop dealing with anyone that is around him.
To this day no single person can actually explain what person inquestion did, nor do I really care this late in the game to be honest, but at the time, it makes it hard to fathom whats going on, when no single person can give a strait answer, beyond "hes a very bad man".
As to good and evil, i could give a rats [censored] to be honest. Aden can be infinatly more complex than that. Quite seriously it should be about political entities(clans) with aposing views of what direction they want to take their country. L2 lore, the nobles have been overthrown, upstart citizens and 'clans' are now taking the reigns of power in the country, why does it have to be about sacrafice this or murder kittens that, why cant we just be aposing political entities trying to influence the world around us. [censored] good and evil, Templars havent run a single story line that had anything to do with 'good' or 'evil' in the last 2 years we have been rping. We stand for certain in game lore based things, however, never has it been "::trumpets blaring:: we have shiney white cloaks and are good!" Granted thats what most like to think of us, and ill take free propoganda. Templars are a military wing of an eclesiastic entity that currently is at war with pagan cults infultrating our every temple, two diametrically different points of view of what the 'will of einhasad' should be, and still trying to grasp controll of the 7 seals to ensure shillen will not be released.
Kyrael, scheduled conflicts and scripted are VERY differnt. We want to schedual combat engagments for duel purposes thats fine, we want to Script our rps, no thanks.
Never once have I wanted complete and totall war in the rp community, but i do want interaction, conflict(of stories) an antagonist faction, and i have made attempts for my clan or its political patrons to be on both sides of that line, with no luck either way.
Heres the thing, I have never said being 'evil' was easy, or that anyone has done a better job than EoD at it, but really, every EoD encounter i have witnessed, hasnt been evil, dark, antagonistic, or even neutral evil, to chaotic neutral or anything that would live up to this advertisment of evil, accept the Moonlit hill battle with Avant Guard. Turning AG(under its other name, mal something) member away from them, goading them to shoot first and then kicking the tar out of them, brilliant. So here I am, new to l2, hearing stories like that, hearing all this buzz eod (DH at the time) we go bump in the night, and from day one, the only bump was the house cat knocking something over.
There are talented rpers abound on both sides, and all over our server, but no unifying drive to do anything outside ones own clan. From day one, ET has been willing, ready and waiting, if anyone wants to step up and start something, even something super small, im all ears, I hope grazzt can do something, but i have little hope for it, just to jaded now.
I am pretty sure you were there when I talked to you and Aria about him a few weeks after i joined heh but thats besides the point since the rehashing of this tatiyana event thingie has been beaten to death now.
EoD in whatever form you want to call it had few "dark" characters. For the most part HoS was really started by people who were non-rpers or still learning. From that birth HoS (what is now EoD) has been a light RP clan so if the characters are light RP to basically nonRPers then that display of evil is a bit hard to come by.
But yeah good / evil .. political rivials however you want to create the RP .. without solid tension and dare i say drama RP gets shallow and hollow very quick and unless you are a drow guild where you can have that tension from within as you slit each other's throats for supremacy you need an outside element, which yes lacks not because of lack of determination but because I think the RPers on this server love to hate each other and that in turn destroys any seed.
I mean look at Drakkos for instance. Grazzt is trying to build something and one of the first replies is "EoD copy cat. I laugh at you lawl lawl good luck youngin'" If he really gave a crap he'd have been more complimentary. Its so easy to be jaded after being on this server for so long. RPers on Lionna in general are just pricks to those outside their own circle and I freely admit my guilt in such.
I guess the only question is why do I bother? I guess I enjoy having hope even in hopeless situations, heh. Someday the RP messiah will come! lol Until then though I guess I'll keep wearing my yamika
When tempers flare because of OOC actions toward those who matter to us, there are two choices: do something that ends up getting you banned from the game (language, harassment, etc), or just plain stop dealing with anyone that is around him.
There is a third option. Let time heal the wounds and stop being so hateful *shrugs* One thing I've come to figure out in this game is the people you think you hate really don't desrve it. One usually becomes too stubborn and incapable of seeing the opposing person's (people's) point of view after the initial conflict, which makes it impossible to understand why someone(s) acted or reacted in the manner they did and that both sides in any conflict will have their own biased view point. Then this biased viewpoint festers and spreads to others who had nothing to do with the original problems and it just becomes one unbreakable cycle.
Lets have peace and love man so we can then bash each other's brains out in peace. :)
Quite seriously it should be about political entities(clans) with aposing views of what direction they want to take their country. L2 lore, the nobles have been overthrown, upstart citizens and 'clans' are now taking the reigns of power in the country, why does it have to be about sacrafice this or murder kittens that, why cant we just be aposing political entities trying to influence the world around us.
My thoughts exactly.
And it all comes down to "RPing should have influence ingame".
(btw, stop doing that, how are we gonna fight each other if we think alike like that ? :p)
still trying to grasp controll of the 7 seals to ensure shillen will not be released.
Ha ha ha ! Shilen will be released and that's gonna be the end of your world as you know it !
And anyone who wont be on the side of the Shillien Empire at that time will disapear from the face of Aden :cool:
From day one, ET has been willing, ready and waiting, if anyone wants to step up and start something, even something super small, im all ears, I hope grazzt can do something, but i have little hope for it, just to jaded now.
Like i said, i'm not a better person than anyone else, so i dont know if it's gonna work, but i'll sure give it a try, now that after a lot of hesitations it's finally cristal clear in my head !
I mean look at Drakkos for instance. Grazzt is trying to build something and one of the first replies is "EoD copy cat. I laugh at you lawl lawl good luck youngin'" If he really gave a crap he'd have been more complimentary.
Yeah and then he goes balistic on me just because i said "balls" :eek:
Someday the RP messiah will come! lol Until then though I guess I'll keep wearing my yamika
This day is now !
I'm your Messiah, bow down before me !
I'm here to unite the RP community and let them understand that all of this is just a game, and that the player is not the character !
:cool:
Maybe you did mal but nothing really stands out in my memory of reasons that seem so horrific to find the need to pk him in other games he goes and playes in.
I doubt the mesiah will come, WAR's rp community already seems 100000000x better as far as desire for interaction/conflict maybe its the setting with easily identifiable sides. I have a feeling there though the rp will get pretty old pretty quick, "THE CHOAS GODS WILL KILL YOU ALL" "Save the world!" fight fight fight. We shall see.
If people wanted to RP opposing factions, they could probably do so on a faction-based game. As a rule of thumb, RPing within the setting of factions (which is being done) is quite entertaining, but making the factions the chief focus cheapens the experience.
And there's of course the fact - I don't think any one clan cares about another second clan enough to make it the focus of their action - especially ICly. Maybe that's something that works for templars (hate all evil), but 'good' can probably never become more than a marginal bother for an evil clan (otherwise, it stops being evil) - which means that it's not a solid basis for RP.
Maybe you did mal but nothing really stands out in my memory of reasons that seem so horrific to find the need to pk him in other games he goes and playes in.
Oh there is absolutely no reason at all for that. I would hope people like Olo (if he is doing what he just commented on) or whomever those people he may be talking about are not so petty to actually hunt that dude in other games. If they are they really need to get a freakling life.
Kyr, do you know about that storyline or did that just come out of nowhere?
As I said, not directly. Only half-remembered posts on L2RPA, random PMs, things people told me at the Well and in passing.
I'm also not sure who "that dude" is you're all talking about. There's been a couple times where people took IC things a little too OOCly, involving a RL stalker of one community member, and another instance where someone else made rather definte threats/intimations of violence towards another female member of the community... but I don't know if that's what you're talking about. Fortunately, that hasn't happened to me in L2, though I have had it happen from another game (which is why I do not divulge much RL information)... but, unlike others, I have friends who are only too willing to make someone stop living. Much like being friends with attack dogs, it's really rather disturbing, now that I think about it, but "disturbing" is the story of my life <shrugs>.
It is true that there has never been a cohesion of goals and interests in the RP community. Long time ago, Darkfyre and LostOrder, achieved a sort of symbiosis in storylines and events, but as time wore on and the attrition rate increased, the only real legacy we have of that is the Wishing Well.
On that event... well, that's a whole different story.
Kyrael, scheduled conflicts and scripted are VERY differnt. We want to schedual combat engagments for duel purposes thats fine, we want to Script our rps, no thanks.
Some scripting of events (not the duels) is generally necessary for plotlines to advance. For example, a scripted/pre-arranged meeting between, say, a diplomat from ET meets with, say, Kyrael, a Light Elf, a representative of EoD, to discuss... just tossing this out there... "the Prophecy of Kirsirath". So during this "scripted" event, we've agreed that its a conversation, no weapons, no fighting, just sitting across the table from each other and sharing information on some bit of lore, third faction, whatever we have this Prophecy written up as.
It is scripted in that your people and mine know that this meeting is going to be held on such-and-such date, at such-and-such time, and that it is a PvP-free scene. The main speakers (in this case me and your diplomat) have the (OOC) background information on the Prophecy that they're going to talk about, but are otherwise free to ad-lib. The rest of those gathered can interject and interact with each other as they see fit, but the goal of the scene is an exchange of information (in this example), not an outbreak of hostilities.
It's not a play where we're reading scripted lines, but the scene and stage are set to advance the overall plotline without me or your diplomat killing each other.
Never once have I wanted complete and totall war in the rp community, but i do want interaction, conflict(of stories) an antagonist faction, and i have made attempts for my clan or its political patrons to be on both sides of that line, with no luck either way.
There's been several roadblocks to that, not the least of which is the attrition rate, and the fact that for as many non-PvPers in the RP community as there are, there are several who are rather bloodthirsty, and figure the fastest and best way to resolve any conflict is by annihilating the other side...and its difficult to reign these sorts in, or getting them to recognize that, when they do things that make it not-fun for others to participate, those others stop participating.
As far as one clan caring about another... well, that's tricky. With so few people in the RP community, and the game-mechanic concerns of advancement and Clan Rank and the like, it's difficult to push someone towards Clan B when your own clan is in need of numbers.
Though to set them up as opposing factions requires a commitment from both sides, and a whole lot of OOC dialogue between the leaders to keep the plotline moving, and a sharing of human resources in order to maintain viability of one side or the other, to the conclusion of the storyline.
When one or both of these clans start getting involved in server politics, and thus has an increasing need of resources, people and XP, generally the RP will suffer simply because of the time investment.
Can it be done? Sure... nothing's impossible... but if you have one side that is driving to 80/80/80 and another that has personnel issues and can't put together a party for its higher-level members, or its lower, or whatever... your RP is going to suffer for it, either from an overabundance of unrelated alts, a constant influx of new people and an outflow of the old, or simply lack of people in general.
I doubt the mesiah will come, WAR's rp community already seems 100000000x better as far as desire for interaction/conflict maybe its the setting with easily identifiable sides.
Well, unlike Lineage, Warhammer already has a fan-base, an entire library of fluff fiction, lore and RPG resources, and 20+ years of marketing that establishes the table-top game. It's also faction-based at its heart. With the table-top WHFRP now in its second edition, and a lot of material able to crossover from WH40k... well, WAR is nicely set-up for RP. L2's muddled history, muddled politics and muddled game-play is less conducive.
Ha ha ha ! Shilen will be released and that's gonna be the end of your world as you know it !
And anyone who wont be on the side of the Shillien Empire at that time will disapear from the face of Aden
Unless they make her a Raid Boss, then I give her a month before she's dropped like a lead brick.
And it all comes down to "RPing should have influence ingame".
This is never going to happen in L2. We lack the numbers, the influence and the dev support to ever actually influence the direction of the game. Even the top-tier PvP alliances, on every server, do not change or influence the game, they simply influence other players.
RPers on Lionna in general are just pricks to those outside their own circle and I freely admit my guilt in such.
Heh, can you blame them, when so many other players are pricks to them? Personally, I've bounced through so many circles that I'm either just a [censored] to everyone, which is probable, or I simply don't care, because today's enemy is tomorrow's ally in Aden.
Hell, I partied with some old Syndicate friends last night, who now wear the LP/B0SS tag. We had a great time.
There are talented rpers abound on both sides, and all over our server, but no unifying drive to do anything outside ones own clan. From day one, ET has been willing, ready and waiting, if anyone wants to step up and start something, even something super small, im all ears, I hope grazzt can do something, but i have little hope for it, just to jaded now.
I've thought about it, but... especially right now, and given recent politics, it's been very difficult. Being warred by members of your previous ally certainly didn't help matters, hehe.
I also have to admit that, really, I'm tired of a lot of things in L2, specifically in its RP community, and about the game and its creators. Just... tired. So, I also play EQ2, which, in many ways, is a mecca for an RPer like myself. We, players, have tools and mechanics and resources to do just about anything we want, there's even an RP-PvP server, though I don't have a character on it, /duel works well enough for me if I need a violent resolution.
If we want to explore the possibility of a storyline in L2, though, we first need to have an OOC round-table first, I think, to lay out the basics, set the stage and the plot, so to speak, and set the expectations and such appropriately, so that all involved are coming at it on the same page.
I personally think 80/80/80 and being avid rpers isnt mutually exclusive, and not slower than any other no l33t or in lionnas case 'neutral' allies. I have been running an almost 2 week story line with in game and forum aspects that my whole clan has partook in, Leveling continues on, most leveling ihave had personally in some time, mainly because turalyon is 'missing' and i dont have to be IC for any other decisions and removing myself from Justica has freed up some time, not puting out their fires.
To your points, all are very good and very valid, id Say from an RP aproach, i look at rp the same way i view government, that which governs least governs best. I truely feel most players can check themselves, so long as a few very basic guidelines are in place, but thats just me.
I do agree Kyrael it all could be done, but, I think its to little to late for l2 rp community.
To warhammer, yes it does have so much lore to pull from it does allow for a much more Rp friendly atmosphere, atleast resources wise, we will see how game play mechanics come out. Im still dieing to see if I can play a High Elf Sword Master of Hoeth, I LOVED those guys in the TTG, never leave Ulthaun without them. However highly disapointed bretonnians wont be apearing in the game, yet atleast ::hopes for the expansion::
To Maline, once again, templars have no interest in smiting all that is evil, as i stated before, while I enjoy our free propoganda machines such as yourself, we are infintaly more interested in furthering the perogative of the Political entity that founded us, which atm is in a quasi civil war of idiologies, my knights backing the old dead theogenists ideas of uniting the races of Elmore and Aden against the common enemy that will sweep over our country, while attempting to overthrow the old ideas of the early church, of human superiority and dominance over the continent.
So, after all, it isn't even something that works for templars? No two clans have members that all in all like each other enough to square off as permanently close rivals, I don't think.
I personally think 80/80/80 and being avid rpers isnt mutually exclusive, and not slower than any other no l33t or in lionnas case 'neutral' allies. I have been running an almost 2 week story line with in game and forum aspects that my whole clan has partook in, Leveling continues on, most leveling ihave had personally in some time, mainly because turalyon is 'missing' and i dont have to be IC for any other decisions and removing myself from Justica has freed up some time, not puting out their fires.
Possible, yes, but that is dependent on the individual's RPing style. Ideally, I RP face-to-face, which often precludes hunting, but I can just as easily do RP in channels where the actual avatars are across the map from each other. It is my preference to remain IC as much as is possible, though that is not everyone's tastes.
I'm also a bigger fan of impromptu or ad-libbed, continuous RP than set scenes or scripted plotlines, but I understand that many people prefer the ongoing story, much like a D&D game is, than spontaneous tales. Either one can work for me.
I, too, think that most RPers will behave decently towards each other, more or less, when basic ground-rules are established... but, then, like most anything else, things get messed up by that other 2%... as certain recent events, I'm sure, illustrate for you. With a game like L2, there's many opportunities for things to shift from IC to OOC, or cause significant OOC frustration, and that is when problems arise.
Wether or not its "too late" for Lionna...well, either I don't believe that, or perhaps I'm not ready to admit it yet. I think, especially with the coming of CT1, the new race, the new fortresses, and all that CT1 entails, there's never been a better time and a richer source of material.
So, after all, it isn't even something that works for templars? No two clans have members that all in all like each other enough to square off as permanently close rivals, I don't think.
Ummm? I dont think i get what you mean or are refering to. To the last bit, your right, i dont think any of the three big rp clans left have any current reason to really be rivals persay, however, since we have pretty much nill inter clan rp interaction, there is no way to find out really.
To Kyrael, its never been an issue of the game for me. The game in c3 had so much to offer for rp IMO, its a matter of getting people together to DO something with it. I tried, and frankly im sure my very take action aproach and brash actions were not well recieved by some of the 'old guard'. Since it has been isolationism is the answer, I have no desire to really put the effort out there, Templars have an open door, if someone wants to involve us, im more than willing to help, but im done trying to get others on board.
I doubt anyone knows this fact, but, despite all that transpired with EoD and ET, once when talking to JK, it was mentioned they were getting alot of grief since they were an rp clan by some anonymous folks at the time, I told him, he had but to ask, and ET would be there to help, be it combat, rezing, whatever they needed. RPers need to come together, and i wont tolerate an rper being griefed because they play the game how they like to. Fortunatly ET has never had this issue, but, i have offered to stand up, fight and loose exp for EoD, even with the cold war like anymosity betwen our clans.
Its about the community coming together and just saying, hey, why arent we rping more, if we want anything to happen, people need to step up, i have steped up, i was turned down, ignored, threatened on occasion(mostly my own fault here, i like to shake the boatt ;) ), so im still standing up here if anyone else wants to come along and make something happen, im all ears.
While that's not a bad thing Maline, the idea of the thread was to create more interaction between the RP clans. Not that one can easily find it amongst one's friends list. ^^
And btw, re: our current plotline, we had to create our own antagonist "NPCs" to have a plot. The conflict isn't intra-ET, but the plot is simply because that is the state of the RP community. Hence the discussion. ;)
a most "up-to date" plot line would have to be Romeo+Juliet plot line.
it works so very well with this game engine - the war is there for a reason, ppl have their roles already set out, and where it ends/begins anew is up to the clan lords imho.
I tried, and frankly im sure my very take action aproach and brash actions were not well recieved by some of the 'old guard'
Old Guard? Well, I guess that's relative... to me, "Old Guard" is me, Zaphne, Adorna... a couple other OB/Prelude vets.... everyone else is varying degrees of "new" to me, hehe.
I doubt anyone knows this fact, but, despite all that transpired with EoD and ET, once when talking to JK, it was mentioned they were getting alot of grief since they were an rp clan by some anonymous folks at the time, I told him, he had but to ask, and ET would be there to help, be it combat, rezing, whatever they needed.
Can't say anything about that, I wasn't in EoD at the time... though I do know, now, that I've been trying to get some of the newer/less-PvP-experienced people to follow effective procedures that other clans I've been in had (ie, Who killed you? What class? What tag? How hard did he hit you (lol)?etc etc)
Its about the community coming together and just saying, hey, why arent we rping more, if we want anything to happen, people need to step up, i have steped up, i was turned down, ignored, threatened on occasion(mostly my own fault here, i like to shake the boatt ), so im still standing up here if anyone else wants to come along and make something happen, im all ears.
I think the main problem has always been a difference in opinion in how RPing is done. Some like immersive/hard-core/twenty-four-seven RPing (like me) others prefer casual RPing that has a clear distinction between "Ok, RPing now" and "we're XPing now", and every possible variation and combination in between. And, of course, like anywhere else, there are those to whom RPing only means cybering with slightly better grammar (:rollseyes:)... which happens in every game, everywhere... I've even heard of people cyb0ring in EVE (where your avatar is a spaceship... 'splain to me that, Lucy...).
Though that's a whole different ball of wax, juggling the "rating" of the RP to entertain the largest possible audience. "G"? "PG"? "Pg-13"? "NC-17"? Far be it from me to judge another for their tastes, but I knew several former players that were really into dark, violent, definitely-18+ (US) type of storylines and themes... and I would be lying if I said that such plots don't interest me either... but, with a community like this, I feel that we have a responsibility to ensure that RP remains appropriate for all participants.
I mean look at Drakkos for instance. Grazzt is trying to build something and one of the first replies is "EoD copy cat. I laugh at you lawl lawl good luck youngin'" If he really gave a crap he'd have been more complimentary. Its so easy to be jaded after being on this server for so long. RPers on Lionna in general are just pricks to those outside their own circle and I freely admit my guilt in such.
Oh for crying out loud will you EVER stop whining?
Do you REALLY wanna know the Grazzt story? Do you?
It's not that big of a deal. He was briefly an Echo. He very much wanted a "dark elf only faction" within Echoes. It wasn't much supported. He left. All good.
Then he posted his 'new Shillen Empire' idea. They he changed it to tell us all publicly how he and Estremoz were gonna build a great alliance. Still all good.
Then last week he posts: "actually, after all this time--I'm gonna build an 'evil' rp clan that accepts all characters".
I WAS JOKING WHEN I TYPED "so you're building a new Echoes?"
It was a non-issue. I wasn't slammin or discouraging or disparaging the guy. I assumed that Grazzt would know why I was highlighting his return to the more general, open concept of clan organizations.
He's had 10 ideas in 4 months and has come full circle. I don't have a problem with that. Generating multiple ideas is good for the game (and the soul).
I didn't have an issue until in response to my post he tried to get a laugh from the server at Echoes expense.
I understood clearly he intended it as a joke. It was the joke I didn't like.
Grazzt and I have discussed this all that it needs to be discussed.
Apologies have been extended and accepted. Now let the poor dead horse die--for christ's sakes the first 70 posts on the topic were too many.
It's ridiculous to continue reading posts where others are telling me what I think or what I mean. NO ONE who has ever interacted with me in this game has ever described me as a ***** (or my play style or my communication or my support of others).
I think the main problem has always been a difference in opinion in how RPing is done.
And completely irrelevant. An individual can rp however they want, and it wont effect anything. YOu want to pop in and be apart of an ongoing plot for 2 min then never apear in it again, you want to be emersed in that plot for your entire duration in game, and constantly be involved in it.
The issue is, no one wants to break their isolationst clan buble. No one wants game mechanic consequences to effect their rp. No one wants to make it work, We have 18 pages of excuses, and nothing will change, just like the hundreds of pages of threads just like this on l2rpa, everyone argued, debated, vented, gave their input, and nothing happened.
You are contradicting yourself here - "game mechanics effect RP" is mutually exclusive with "everyone can RP how they likes". Someone who isn't either willing to cheat or has a lot of time on their hands can't RP however they like if you want game mechanics to have their direct counterpart IC.
Ummm, I do? 2 years playing, just got 75, rped well over 95% of, meaning most my grinding and ingame experiances through quests, interactions and the like have all shaped my character, but if thats not your style thats cool too, i was more refering to the fear of EXP loss, l2 drama, and those things which cause the fear of rp clan interaction, as i said, excuses, and why nothing changes here.
This late though, why spill of spilt milk when it was already sour. l2 has the freedom to be whatever you want it to be or can make it be, and it is what it is now.
Tura, I'll agree those are excuses. But at the same time, not all clans (heck, PLAYERS) are at the same level---meaning they have different interests BEHIND their excuses.
If a clan has a couple low 60's players and some high 50's players---those folks realize they all need to level (while RP'ing or whatever). They want to exp in relative peace so they can get high enough to participate.
Saying that they are "afraid of xp loss" isn't really an accurate description.
I'd say they were being smart to focus on their goals for a possible payoff later (being higher level).
Are those 'excuses' that players and clans carry? Yeah, probably. At the same time some excuses make a lot of sense for the person in that situation.
If my clan had 12 players in their mid-70's (and I was one of them) I'd be all for indescriminantly jumping into things. At the same time I'd still understand how some of the new guys in their 30's, 40's, and 50's "just want to RP" (or "just want to xp") and might be upset at serial war tags or repeated deaths.
Particularly once you get to high 50's and that 4% isn't regained in 15 minutes--if you're a casual player losing 8% one day and 4% the next and so on, gets pretty discouraging.
And these are precisely the clans that can't blow 1+ million per brez or have a high enough level rezzer to relieve the hurt.
You are close to A-grade, have played a long time, can't hurt any of the opposing forces attacking you---it can be a frustrating level to live in if your clan is off pursuing its PvP fun. In high 50's saving for A-grade you don't even want to buy/burn a BSOE! Level 59 with constant war tags is a sucky place to be in this game:)
Just an example. I know a lot of "rp focused" clans are smaller and don't have the toons/levels that Templars can generate. If they have most of their toons under 67 (heck! 70+) it's different for them than for Templars........
.......and yeah, that's an excuse :)
Unfortunately I need to play slightly as devils advocate. At times its not just about the levels because when I tried to start a bit of reconciliation between EoD and Templars you guys had the levels too. You had Lethlplayer, Ramok, TheNameLess, Tharakurghash, another high level BD who's name I am forgetting, and Damiel and thats only the people I was aware of. But nothing could still come of anything because of hatred for Templars by a person I didn't even know hated us O.o. Of course he's gone now, or atleast not in your generally named leadershi. But also, alot of your high level players also got either kicked out or left for what they felt was greener pastuers and moved on too. So while you all do need to rebuild I just wonder if the bitterness and as Tura called it Cold War will persist anyways.
So I guess what I am really saying is the excuses flip flop. If its not A its B if its not either its excuse C. There seems no way out of the excuses that seem to crop up :/
Unfortunately I need to play slightly as devils advocate. At times its not just about the levels because when I tried to start a bit of reconciliation between EoD and Templars you guys had the levels too. You had Lethlplayer, Ramok, TheNameLess, Tharakurghash, another high level BD who's name I am forgetting, and Damiel and thats only the people I was aware of. But nothing could still come of anything because of hatred for Templars by a person I didn't even know hated us O.o. Of course he's gone now, or atleast not in your generally named leadershi. But also, alot of your high level players also got either kicked out or left for what they felt was greener pastuers and moved on too. So while you all do need to rebuild I just wonder if the bitterness and as Tura called it Cold War will persist anyways.
I have no insight into this, as I was not part of EoD at the time... though Tura should remember, and I'm certain that Tregarde would if he still played, as well as Esmera and others that I, personally, have no problems with cross-clan or open RPing.
Still, I am not sure this has any bearing on the current run of things, as almost every name you mentioned there isn't around.
I might also add that, most recently, there was someone formerly of EoD in the Justica alliance who hated us with a passion to the point of bringing a one-sided war against EoD, so there have been hostilities (related or not, I am not certain) from both sides, it would seem.
Besides, we have alts of appropriate lvl.
In this, though, we're going back to "scheduled" RP, unless you plan on being on those alts the majority of the time?
Though, what is "appropriate level", appropriate level for what? XP parties? Party Duels? There's such a spread of levels on this side of things that might get... weird.
In this, though, we're going back to "scheduled" RP, unless you plan on being on those alts the majority of the time?
Though, what is "appropriate level", appropriate level for what? XP parties? Party Duels? There's such a spread of levels on this side of things that might get... weird.
Heck if I know what appropriate lvl might be. It's been said that there's a lvl gap of some sort. Not everyone in ET is high numbers. Let's face it. If there's ET'ers hunting in EV, it's not because they're lvl 70 now is it? If ET meets up with EoD (for example) out there... the current situation is: Let's ignore each other. Why can't that change?
I see no reason why it should be that way, except perhaps individual shyness on the part of one side or another? Personally, I don't hunt EV so I can't say I've seen any Templars there.
Usually, find me fishing in Heine or in Disciples or WoA or VoS or something along those lines, aways off the beaten track, but if I'm on I'm almost always up to do anything.
Still, I am not sure this has any bearing on the current run of things, as almost every name you mentioned there isn't around.
This was in regards to Drakkos mentioning a levels issue. Back in like February I came to Ramok, Olorae, and Damiel about setting up a cross RP idea around when the Kuea spy deal happened. At that time they had a few good high levelers. The point is as I stated is there is always an excuse and if its not one excuse plaguing the interclan relations at the time it ends up being another. Thats all.
I might also add that, most recently, there was someone formerly of EoD in the Justica alliance who hated us with a passion to the point of bringing a one-sided war against EoD, so there have been hostilities (related or not, I am not certain) from both sides, it would seem.
If you are talking about Akalith, that issue between Phoenix Ashes and EoD predated PA's admittance into Justica Alliance. I do not even know if it was Akalith that started the war though tbo since it did predate our alliance. I had huge verbal sparring matches with Akalith when we were in HoD. He left HoD and Olorae rebuilt the clan; however, certain people on this server made it their business to cause him enough grief to try to grief him off the server. While Akalith is no angel by any means, I really cannot blaim him for seeking some retribution for being PKed.
Phoenix Ashes was an important ally during our Gludio days. To dismiss them for one person's actions just is politically idiotic.
The declination to have anything to do with templars at that time had nothing to do with worry about exp loss etc.
By the way, it's not exp loss anyone is bothered about (nobody in echoes except me ever got bothered for dying in PvE, which is, after all, more severe exp loss than PvP - and I only get bothered for letting people die as a healer) - it's peaceful hunting.
It's that there's no point in a 'war for fun' if you're going to wind up avoiding pickup groups outside the clan for fear of snitching or hiding in a far off area because otherwisely some A Grader will come sweeping for your D/C-Graders but piss off before backup arrives. ^_^
And that, in turn, means that a 'war for fun' requires absolute trust between the parties involved. Which is, as I've said a few times, hardly the case here.
That is a concern. Many view XP loss as a set-back, even if it only takes you 15 minutes of hunting to gain it back, that's 15 minutes of covering old ground again... much longer for those in the higher levels, or do not have the opportunity for frequent grouping. For a class like mine, 4% is a whole lot more than 15 minutes soloing, though I am beyond the point of caring about XP.
I don't think it will be possible to change such opinions in many cases, so any sort of PvP combat action that happens in any sort of plot would have to be handled very carefully.
If you are talking about Akalith, that issue between Phoenix Ashes and EoD predated PA's admittance into Justica Alliance. I do not even know if it was Akalith that started the war though tbo since it did predate our alliance. I had huge verbal sparring matches with Akalith when we were in HoD. He left HoD and Olorae rebuilt the clan; however, certain people on this server made it their business to cause him enough grief to try to grief him off the server. While Akalith is no angel by any means, I really cannot blaim him for seeking some retribution for being PKed.
The start of the conflict predates my time in EoD as well, so I have only scant details about the origins as well. From what I am led to believe, it was a rather destructive thing, internally, which then became external. I would surmise that his retaliations were in retaliation for the retaliations of others...
I must have edited it out at some point :/ but I did mean to say that the feuding was a two way street; ergo, why "I really cannot blaim him for seeking some retribution for being PKed."
ooo edit button is fixed. I must also add PA's actions should have no reflection on Templars or MJ. Its not like we jumped into their war or anything. Also when they joined us work was done on all sides to allievate the war.
I'm not blaming anyone for anything, simply pointing out factors that contribute, potentially, to reservations and cautious relations. Politics being what they are in L2, they are an aspect of the game that will affect any decision made by clans in almost every action, including RP. As far as I am aware, though, it was some time before it was understood that the war was not supported by the alliance as a whole.
Which, of course, brings up another roadblock to ongoing storylines and RP. Political involvement in the server can bring large amounts of inconvenience upon unrelated targets, simply by being in the wrong place at the wrong time, for which there is no real recourse or recompense.
Again, this is something that I'm rather used to, given my own history, but for others... well, not so much. If, say, TeamA is at war with ThoseGuys clan, and is having some RP event or w/e with TeamB, when ThoseGuys show up and kill everyone... and ThoseGuys do it everytime they see TeamA, and TeamB happens to have people present at many of those occasions... well, TeamB isn't going to be having a lot of fun, and might not even know why they're getting killed.
Then again, politics shouldn't be a deterrant, per se, but at the outset expectations should be set accordingly, at least because its polite. "Hey, um, we're at war with ThoseGuys... they might kill you if they come out here and see us" that sort of thing.
In this case its not a contributing factor nor was there any "support" by the alliance as a whole.
PA and MJ are not RP entities so that arguement makes no sense that they;d interfere in an rped storyline. When Templars warred EoD in an ooc fashion MJ would have never stepped in unless we had asked for it. And we never felt the need to ask for help. Had there ever been a RP war MJ would not have stepped in unless they were RPers in MJ trying to participate.
Concerning the war (again) Ultra stated long ago he did not realize the war between PA and EoD still existed so how could the alliance support a war while unaware it still existed? Ultra also stated right away he'd do what he could to remedy the situation and was it not fixed?
an MJ nor a Templar has ever killed an EoD on the behalf of a PA or visa-versa in the 24 hour war Templars had on EoD as far as I know.
I was speaking in general terms, not implying anything and, as I said, about the specific situation in the past, it was more a lack of communication and knowledge than any hard evidence, as to the situation.
My later example, though, was a generalisation, not alluding to any specifics. If ClanA and ClanB are both RP clans, but ClanA is also involved in heavy server politics, and is at war with ClanC, it becomes a hassle for ClanB to have RP events with ClanA because they always get killed when ClanC rolls in to kill ClanA. This is how I meant that politics are of account in these sorts of things.
I was mainly referring to the first two paragraphs and trying to show how it should be a relative non-issue given events that actually took place and how hypothetical ones would have happened. I do not think you are pointing fingers; however, you have in two instance made the claim Justica as an alliance supported the war between EoD and PA, which I am just retorting to you by saying thats simply not true.
Well I have tried my best to Avoid EoD this, Templar that, in the later pages of this topic, but it is inevitable since its well EoD, Templars and LO, and LO doesnt come here.
Again it comes down to this, if people wanted it to happen, everything presented would be meaningless, they are entirely excuses.
To EoD and Templar history, we have wared 3 times, 2 in course of RP, and one purely ooc. Also for war ET is much more willing because frankly we have more resources. In a declared war with our CH rez, we loose .5%. Once we finish level 7 and get clan luck(go go acadamy) it will be closer to .2%. However, we are way off topic.
Why do we all assume this must inevitiably end with some clamatic death match in an steel cage match? I have called for, a global story that all rpers, claned or not, could at any point if they so wished jump in and be apart of, the clans or factions would ofcourse be the biggest drivers of the story, but anyone could have their influence on it. Could this lead to war? Sure it could, could there never be an arrow fired? Yep also possible.
However this will not happen, because there is a list of excuses 10miles long, and no one willing to try. When we wared EoD for the OOC reasons, their leadership at the time, learned some things they didnt know. I dont pretend to know what happened behind the scenes, but the only people who were communicating with ET, left. So since our demands were met to stop the war, we did, our intentions were made clear that we werent going to stand for the trash talk we were recieving froma member, and that ultimatly we wanted more interaction and RP, to end this cold war esc relationship. Ramok and others welcomed it, but asked to move slowly. A week later they came into vent and said, well were leaving EoD good luck. havent heard a thing from EoD since, back to the status quo i guess.
And Really at this point im sorta fine with that, I dont expect or hold hope for anything from lineages rp community, everyone seems to enjoy their interclan dramas enough, to not need anything more. For me, having to invent antagonists is getting old, but im done trying to make a horse drink when it doesnt want to.
And Really this topic is done, we can banter on for another 20+ pages about well theres this and that, but not one other person(Grazzt aside) has steped up and said, Hey, lets stop talking and take action, so untill someone wants to step up and stop talking, lets leave it be, beating the corpse of the dead horse from years ago just isnt nice to the spirit of the poor horse.
Though that is the reason that I keep bantering back and forth, Tura... what Grazzt wants, if I understand the point of Shilen Empire correctly, is an RP-PvP clan. He wants storylines that pits this newly-resurgent Dark Elf Clan/Church/Temple thing against... well, I guess anyone who disagrees with it. Which would, I imagine, include all Light Elves and most Humans, save, perhaps, those aligned with Gran Kain.
I know, from experience and interaction, that this is exactly the sort of thing that the majority of the RP community *doesn't* want.
Why do we all assume this must inevitiably end with some clamatic death match in an steel cage match? I have called for, a global story that all rpers, claned or not, could at any point if they so wished jump in and be apart of, the clans or factions would ofcourse be the biggest drivers of the story, but anyone could have their influence on it. Could this lead to war? Sure it could, could there never be an arrow fired? Yep also possible.
Because this is Lineage2 and this is how things generally end up anyway? Because this is Lineage2 and this option is always available to whomever wants to throw down (and pick up) that gauntlet? Because, in the hearts and minds of gamers the world over, there is always the temptation to say "Aw, to hell with it, I stab his punk-[censored] in the head!"?
I fully agree with you that we could have an over-arching storyline that doesn't involve a single arrow fired. I fully believe that and agree with you.
However, I am not so naieve to think this will happen easily, without a *lot* of pre-plot work, making sure everyone understands the ground rules.
Why ground rules? Why so carebear? Because, well, truth be told, there's a (censored) of carebears in the RP community. There's a *lot* of people who don't like PvP, or, rather, don't like being ganked by people 20 levels above them. I understand their feelings, even if I don't necessarily share them.
However, in a world like Aden... violence is used to solve problems. It's the very basis for the mechanics of the game. What I've been talking about all this time is establishing ground-rules by which we can have a plotline that may involve PVP interaction, but yet avoids devolving into, say, your 7xers killing our 5xers while our 6xers gank your 4xers.
Otherwise, I fear it inevitable that that is all it will become.
Now, going back a bit, I think I was misinterpreted, as in my previous posts I did not mean nor intend to insinuate that Justica or ET supported PA's war against EoD. My only statement in that direction was that, to my knowledged, EoD did not know, either way, and so made the cautious assumption (i.e. err on the side of caution) that it was so. That it was not so was later demonstrated, drama over, things move on.
And that is... well, that's really all I have to say about that.
*sniffle* I still like my idea I had back in February
but anyways.. I guess if others were willing we could just utilize each other's clans as a "nemesis" for plot lines so we are not making them for ourselves. Seeing as how we do not interact with the other anyways would it really matter all that much? I mean since the "nemesis" is a cog related to a plotline it no longer becomes an issue of ego. And if it invloves death and dying there could be an off scene healer or two waiting >.>
It would atleast be a start and totally remove any silly notion of gank squads *shrugs* its a little structured in a fashion but if we need to make enemies for ourselves we still are making a structured game play anyways.
so there :P I've made a recommendation without an excuse and it didn't come from Grazzt
It's amazing to me that this thread suggests that so much of the problem the RP community is having rests with EchoesofDarkness.
That's quite an accomplishment for a clan listed as not having 30 players.
These folks must be on every day causing disturbances left and right with other RP clans! (lol).
If the RP clans (or Grazzt's Shillen Empire) want to do some inter-clan thing then they will or won't. Whether his idea or any other clan's RP plans succeed or fail will not rest on 6-12 month old stories, half-told by disgruntled former members and former enemies.
Yup you nailed it on the head. EoD is the cause of all the RP issues in the game. From what I understand EoD has destroyed RP on all other servers including games that have not come out yet.
Its a trying business you got there but glad you are satisfied with your ill begotten victory!
I fully agree with you that we could have an over-arching storyline that doesn't involve a single arrow fired. I fully believe that and agree with you.
However, I am not so naieve to think this will happen easily, without a *lot* of pre-plot work, making sure everyone understands the ground rules.
Why ground rules? Why so carebear? Because, well, truth be told, there's a (censored) of carebears in the RP community. There's a *lot* of people who don't like PvP, or, rather, don't like being ganked by people 20 levels above them. I understand their feelings, even if I don't necessarily share them.
However, in a world like Aden... violence is used to solve problems. It's the very basis for the mechanics of the game. What I've been talking about all this time is establishing ground-rules by which we can have a plotline that may involve PVP interaction, but yet avoids devolving into, say, your 7xers killing our 5xers while our 6xers gank your 4xers.
Why does there have to be an OOC discussion and "establishing of ground-rules" in a war? You want your lowbies to level in (relative) peace? Talk with your enemies, there's a lot that can be done with diplomacy, including setting up places like the Pavel Ruins or the Forsaken Plains to be demilitarised zones for the purposes of this conflict. Someone breaks those agreements? Deal with it IC. Complain to the clan leaders about it. Demand compensation. Spread the word about the enemy's lies and deceptions around.
Being in a war means there are more reasons to interact with each other, on all levels, not less.
The over-arching story line will then happen by itself.
Why does there have to be an OOC discussion and "establishing of ground-rules" in a war?
The war is, for purposes of this discussion, a backdrop to a storyline, not a typical L2 inter-clan conflict.
You want your lowbies to level in (relative) peace? Talk with your enemies, there's a lot that can be done with diplomacy, including setting up places like the Pavel Ruins or the Forsaken Plains to be demilitarised zones for the purposes of this conflict.
Which would be a good example of a ground rule, as I have been talking about for two pages.
Someone breaks those agreements? Deal with it IC. Complain to the clan leaders about it. Demand compensation. Spread the word about the enemy's lies and deceptions around.
Very well could, though that all depends on circumstances.
however, here on lionna it just cannot happen because the RPers on this server would not let that happen.
I am not sure that's true either. It could as likely be that no one has yet presented the idea for a plot line that engaged the interests of more than 2 clans?
To drakkos, its not EoD's fault persay. Unfortunatly the rp clan pool gets smaller and smaller very chronicle. EoD, in previous regimes, has flatley said, 'No Interaction' and continued that stance. So if someone is to say why isnt there more clan interaction, well, there ya go. Is that necessarily bad? No not if everyone wants it that way. ET has gone from c3 to now with little to no 'global story line' though all of our major ones are posted should anyone want to use them in such a manner.
If the rp community(and lets be frank here, we are discussing pretty much EoD, ET, and LO), wants to break the cold war erra stand off, Lets talk, plain and simple. If we dont, great, my post count went up a few here, enjoy your time in l2.
Kyrael, I knoew you were in the big conflicts with Invincible, My clan for a lesser extent has been as well, but i dont think falling to "well its lineage" is valid, because it IS lineage it leads to infinatly more options than just violence. Warhammer online, would be a valid "well its warhammer" because there IS NO NEGOTIATING with choas, it MUST be DESTROYED. Greenskins DO NOT MAKE PEACE. Green Skins FIGHT. Dark Elves, ok you can negotiate with them, but then they will just stab you in the back of the head.
Lineage, you are part of no faction other than what you make it, you are given a compeltely clean board to paint whatever you want on it, "its lineage" should be a good thing, not a bad for this type of thing.
Why does there have to be an OOC discussion and "establishing of ground-rules" in a war?
The war is, for purposes of this discussion, a backdrop to a storyline, not a typical L2 inter-clan conflict.
No point. Set your goals, start a conflict - the storyline will happen by itself.
That's the same way I deal with it around the table: I, as the game master, don't think up any story lines. The story lines are what the player characters did.
If the rp community(and lets be frank here, we are discussing pretty much EoD, ET, and LO), wants to break the cold war erra stand off, Lets talk, plain and simple. If we dont, great, my post count went up a few here, enjoy your time in l2.
Mr. Kamakela, tear down this wall! :)
Fitting quote given your destroyerhood hehe
Note: Tura's quote was only in reference to the subject matter of my post.
Kyrael, I knoew you were in the big conflicts with Invincible, My clan for a lesser extent has been as well, but i dont think falling to "well its lineage" is valid, because it IS lineage it leads to infinatly more options than just violence. Warhammer online, would be a valid "well its warhammer" because there IS NO NEGOTIATING with choas, it MUST be DESTROYED. Greenskins DO NOT MAKE PEACE. Green Skins FIGHT. Dark Elves, ok you can negotiate with them, but then they will just stab you in the back of the head.
"It's Lineage" because... well... it is. There will be those (and have been) those in the RP community who see PvP (IC or not) as the solution to storyline conflicts. While we do have some extremely high-calibre and mature people in the RP community, I know that this label does not apply to everyone. Like anything else, rules aren't needed for those who will never break them, their for those who are going to anyway. If that makes any sense.
With Warhammer... well, it's mandated by the Emperor to destroy the Greenskin, the Heretic and the Inhuman wherever it may be found.
I thought we're talking about a conflict between characters of role-players here, not the typical L2 war of attrition between players?
We are.. and, then again, we're not, since, as we were talking about a few pages past, that line gets blurred at times, and the one can turn into the other. Which is why I keep going back round to rules and a bit of set-up, to establish a starting point and keep things progressing.
As Maline said, when you have two groups with the same relative resources, a conflict-driven plotline is feasible. When you don't... it's not. Any sort of battle, as friendly as it would be, between EoD and ET right now would be very one-sided. Which is, again, why I'm in the thread talking about these things, trying to get the wheels turning, so to speak.
Remember what I'm trying to do here is build the foundations for this plot-line that keeps things happy for everyone.
The main source of our misunderstandings here (or at least of me not knowing why you make the situation to be so complicated when I just can't see it) seems to be the little fact you equate "conflict" and "PvP" with "fighting".
As far as I see, fighting over a castle is as much of a conflict as is a race through Aden and Elmore, or a competition who writes the most moving poetry. Chose your conflict, then go at it. Plotlines will happen by themselves.
I thought we're talking about a conflict between characters of role-players here, not the typical L2 war of attrition between players?
Which returns us straight to OOC talk to make sure these boundaries are kept and/or the trust for them to be kept. This has not, in the few and short confrontations, been the case as far as I'm aware - just for example, there's a pretty large number of people who do not display their crests openly.
If there were two parties who liked and respected each other enough to say 'we want a conflict (whether it be a race or some PvP) and we trust each other to keep within reasonable and/or previously agreed boundaries', I'm sure this would all work out. It certainly does around a table with pen and paper roleplayers who like each other and just want to have fun together.
The same can not be previously assumed for players in Lineage II.
I guess I must have a rather one-dimensional sense of humor then, hmm.
Now if you don't mind me asking, who ARE you o.O
x.x
And sorry to everyone for not really commenting on the whole PvP/RP bit.
I am that zit that never goes away :( heh *watches Drakkos nod vigorously*
take the last 'S' off for one of my character names another name or two would be MyraHammerFall though that one is pretty archaic in game terms and FashkaTrelao
The main source of our misunderstandings here (or at least of me not knowing why you make the situation to be so complicated when I just can't see it) seems to be the little fact you equate "conflict" and "PvP" with "fighting".
As far as I see, fighting over a castle is as much of a conflict as is a race through Aden and Elmore, or a competition who writes the most moving poetry. Chose your conflict, then go at it. Plotlines will happen by themselves.
Well, then, let me clarify... something like a race across Aden I would call a "competition". Something that involves combat is a "conflict", for the purposes of this web-discussion.
Hope that clears some things up for you, hehe.
As for setting boundaries and such... well, Maline said it better than I could. With L2, and my history with things in the RP community, it's simply not safe to assume civilised behaviour =/
Ok kyrael you want to get the ball rolling so to speak, here is what ET presents, I dont want a war with eod, i have no reason for it, the previous two have ended under the peace accords from olorae, I would like, for RP clans on lionna to be able to interact, and create PC characters in their story lines that COULD lead to antagonists, with some of the older members guiding some very fledgling stories that members of the community on lionna COULD if they so CHOOSE to play a part in. And let those lead where they will. Some ground rules for conduct, but minimal, nothing complicated, or with many gray areas for those to argue about.
Ok kyrael you want to get the ball rolling so to speak, here is what ET presents, I dont want a war with eod, i have no reason for it, the previous two have ended under the peace accords from olorae, I would like, for RP clans on lionna to be able to interact, and create PC characters in their story lines that COULD lead to antagonists, with some of the older members guiding some very fledgling stories that members of the community on lionna COULD if they so CHOOSE to play a part in. And let those lead where they will. Some ground rules for conduct, but minimal, nothing complicated, or with many gray areas for those to argue about.
Perhaps, then, we should hop over to L2RPA and get the rest of the major RP clans, who don't read these forums, involved? I'm sure their insights and comments would be appreciated.
I thought we're talking about a conflict between characters of role-players here, not the typical L2 war of attrition between players?
Which returns us straight to OOC talk to make sure these boundaries are kept and/or the trust for them to be kept.
There is just one boundary here - the one between the player and the character. Without this boundary, there is no role playing; the character becomes an avatar, a representation of the player.
You're not your character. Your character isn't you. Whatever happens to one of those two doesn't matter for the other. That's where roleplaying starts - and besides a shared world (which NCSoft provides us), that's also all the rules roleplaying needs.
I am well aware of the IC/OOC boundary, and I respect it.
But you can not, in an MMORPG, expect everyone who calls themselves a roleplayer to do so, and that brings trouble to the table when you RP conflict. Big trouble.
Which is what we've been talking about for 20 pages. If you don't trust the other party to be able to keep an IC spat from going into OOC harrassment, there's no point whatsoever in trying to RP freeform.
As I have said like five hundred times now: Without trust, there can be no RPed conflict between parties of uneven strength in an open PvP game.
I am well aware of the IC/OOC boundary, and I respect it.
But you can not, in an MMORPG, expect everyone who calls themselves a roleplayer to do so, and that brings trouble to the table when you RP conflict. Big trouble.
People tend to assign themselves attributes and skills they have no idea about, much less actually posses (in this case, "roleplayer"). News at 11.
Educate them (it's not that hard) or kick them if they're not willing to learn.
Which is what we've been talking about for 20 pages. If you don't trust the other party to be able to keep an IC spat from going into OOC harrassment, there's no point whatsoever in trying to RP freeform.
RP doesn't need a purpose; it's fun by itself. That's why I stay in my non-RP clan on Teon and play the market-savvy, but way too soft hearted for his own good Dwarf for my own amusement.
As I have said like five hundred times now: Without trust, there can be no RPed conflict between parties of uneven strength in an open PvP game.
You don't need trust, you need people to play their roles. Otherwise, ignore them so far as the rules of the game permit, or treat them as you would clever mobs where it's not possible.
And the strewman of uneven PvP again ... When is it ever even? When is it ever unavoidable, for that matter? And finally, if your group gets beaten so badly by the enemy ... you have multiple possibilities. For example, cut your loses, admit defeat, ask for peace conditions. ICly. There, you just created a "How my guys got beaten by the other guys so badly we had to surrender" plotline. Or look for friends, creating a "How it came two such unlikely partners formed an alliance" plotline. Or fight the good fight, trying to out-think the enemy where you can't out-gun them. Either way, it forces you to act, to do something, which is good.
I'm not sure if I'm expressing myself this badly, but I'll try again.
1.) Once you've entered an in game conflict governed only by the game rules, it's impossible to just "kick" higher level players. Therefore, the trust thing.
2.) Read that again - as I said, there's no point trying to RP, which means, you won't succeed under the described circumstances.
3.) "People to play their roles" - if expecting that is not trusting them to be somewhat sensible, then I don't know what is. You can't ask people for 'conditions of surrender' ICly you don't trust OOCly to keep IC with these things.
I'm not sure if I'm expressing myself this badly, but I'll try again.
1.) Once you've entered an in game conflict governed only by the game rules, it's impossible to just "kick" higher level players. Therefore, the trust thing.
Why not?
If they're in your own clan, and you are a role-playing clan by definition, you just simply kick them. Been there, done that. Not for them not being role-players, of course, but breaking the clan's rules are grounds for a swift and merciless kick no matter your level.
If they're not in your clan, there's always /block. Reduce their roles to that of slightly more intelligent mobs.
2.) Read that again - as I said, there's no point trying to RP, which means, you won't succeed under the described circumstances.
Why not? It's not like getting your behind spanked somewhat fierce would prevent you from playing your role.
3.) "People to play their roles" - if expecting that is not trusting them to be somewhat sensible, then I don't know what is. You can't ask people for 'conditions of surrender' ICly you don't trust OOCly to keep IC with these things.
I don't trust people to be sensible. When I'm in for role-playing, I expect them to play their roles. There are two parts to it.
First, all they do and say is taken to have an in-character motivation to it. I don't care in the slightest if such motivation really exists or not. If their action don't make any sense from an in-character point of view, it just means my character justifiably thinks of them as madmen, and they will be dealt with as such - still fully in-character.
Second, I don't care about any character besides mine. My characters might care for others; I just don't. I don't want to hear your background history told to me OOC, I don't want to hear about your "plot", I certainly don't care what you think makes your character tick and what his motivations are. Don't tell me about your character. Show me. Act. Play your role.
it just means my character justifiably thinks of them as madmen, and they will be dealt with as such - still fully in-character.
Ah. Well, that's not something I'm willing to do - I guess tastes differ, but I won't RP at/with someone and pretend they're doing something they're not, IC or OOC.
i might have to quote the words of Frau Farbissina (twisted slightly) "Oh! And there are these little tiny pieces of [fighting] just stuck right in the [game]. So when the kids [fight] they think, "Oooh this is [pvp], I'm having fun!" "
pvp is your cup of tea then?
tell me how you were able to sit at your PC (without gaining 50Lbs) and grind your butt off to Hero in the few months youve been with us.
now tell me how you were able to bypass all your character flaws and play a game that simply involves killing mobs repeatedly. boring pve grind game imo. and youre a pro.
if you can successfully answer "i can grind out a hero cause all i want is pvp" then i have some news for you; the RPers pvp. oh yes. far more intensely than you at the hero stage too. your fights take 3 seconds, ours can last 3 hours.
RP
Isnt
pve.
in fact much the opposite. RP involves CREATING a character that weeps when he kills; to a lesser extent it involves creating a toon of level x to accomplish and facilitate the killing process.
if youre telling me your character only pvp's cause thats what the cool kids to, well sorry - im having much more fun than you and im not even A grade.
Akjosch, your my hero, only wish it could be that simple.
Maline, i dont think akjosch is saying pretend they are doing something else, he is saying take what they are doing, and if it to your character cant be justified, then, well, they are a mad man! Wrather than not rping with them, take what they are doing and run with it.
For example, Turalyon cant fathom how Kyrael thinks shes a leaf from a tree. She insists if i talk to some low level flunky who guards the mother tree, that his words should mean more than the leader of the elfen race when he explains the true function of the mother tree is the place of spiritual birth, not physical. OOC i totally get were Kyrael is coming from, the devs have changed the story since prelude, she doesnt want to change her character, and i wont change ingame lore, so, shes just some crazy nut job of an elf with a big sword :shrug:
For example, Turalyon cant fathom how Kyrael thinks shes a leaf from a tree. She insists if i talk to some low level flunky who guards the mother tree, that his words should mean more than the leader of the elfen race when he explains the true function of the mother tree is the place of spiritual birth, not physical. OOC i totally get were Kyrael is coming from, the devs have changed the story since prelude, she doesnt want to change her character, and i wont change ingame lore, so, shes just some crazy nut job of an elf with a big sword :shrug:
And you're some crazy nut job of a mon keigh with a big shield... old too, but that's besides the point . ^^
... and, incidentally, is how we roll with it.
Though, that example is pure IC interaction, and not really what I was getting at in my previous posts. This sort of lore-change is easily worked around. It's an entirely different thing from what I was talking about earlier, when PvP gets involved.
If we have a storyline where PvP is involved, the idea is to make sure that any conflicts that happen, win or lose, remain fun and interesting for all involved. If you end up with some 6x or 7x who only hunts the 2x and 3x on the other side, and then BSOEs before the other side can bring sufficient retaliation, every time... it ceases to be fun for those 2x and 3x.
Again, coming back to some kind of ground rules that helps maintain a balance of fairness to such storylines.
Turalyon, no matter how I twist and turn it, that is pretending they are doing something else. If someone sweeps a lowbie hunting ground hoping to find characters there and kills them, without even checking if they're actually there IC first, then saying 'it was an ambush' or 'he ran into them by chance' is exactly imagining them doing something that they're not doing.
After reading the posts here I think the RP on this server could probably be done in a very easy and straight forward manner akin to what our dwarf friend from Teon is speaking of as well as to what Kyrael is speaking of.
In general we *should* play our characters and people should not be offended by how we play them OOC (ie the separation people speak of.) This can create a RP story all of its own.
Now I am going to use real game happenings to illustrate my points so if you can't handle that then well grow up. Lets take ye old Kuea incident and assume it was done entirely in an IC manner. Olorae asks one of her subjects to spy on the templars named Kuea (sorry if I am mispelling the name). Now the Templars find out and demand retrobution in either Kuea's head on a silver platter or war. Olorae flips the birdie and war starts. At this point, it is anything goes. If Olorae's character did not want the risk of war then she would have handed over Kuea to face whatever trial (which could even bring up another story of trying to rescue a clanmate from the grips of those wacky templars.) The war will not be fair. If the templars have the resources to obliterate the opposing clan then that clan ICly thought poorly and will have to ICly sue for peace. They can then vow for that day of vengeance and build a stronger army. Thats pretty simple no?
Now the above is a self generated storyline based on a series of IC actions/events
Now to bring about where Kyraels thought process comes in. Olorae thinks of a storyline where the Einhasad church wants to take her character into custody and make her stand trial for killing a baby. So Olorae asks (oocly) if the Templars and LO to assist in being the "nemesis" of that story line. Things are worked out and its viewed that the 60+s should not participate and leave it to less than 60. So Templars and LO members playing on their alts (or even their mains if they are new or not above 60) rush the Wishing Well and try to make off with Olorae (per the pre-established storyline). Whatever ensues, ensues until Olorae is regained from their clutches. Now the pre-planned story line ends and people have fun.
I think both instances can work and work well together.
Turalyon, no matter how I twist and turn it, that is pretending they are doing something else. If someone sweeps a lowbie hunting ground hoping to find characters there and kills them, without even checking if they're actually there IC first, then saying 'it was an ambush' or 'he ran into them by chance' is exactly imagining them doing something that they're not doing.
If im at war with someone, and im sweeping any area, I have information to beleive an enemy is there, and I am hunting them or laying to ambush them and kill them, thats not pretending, thats what my character is doing, conciously and ICly planed, period.
If the targets clannies dont want to be apart of said war, perhaps they should ask their leader why they decided to go to war, because in this case, it would have been an IC event that caused the war, and as mal illustrated an IC decision to go to war.
Kyrael i was using our interactions to illustrate more the dwarf guys point.
i might have to quote the words of Frau Farbissina (twisted slightly) "Oh! And there are these little tiny pieces of [fighting] just stuck right in the [game]. So when the kids [fight] they think, "Oooh this is [pvp], I'm having fun!" "
pvp is your cup of tea then?
tell me how you were able to sit at your PC (without gaining 50Lbs) and grind your butt off to Hero in the few months youve been with us.
now tell me how you were able to bypass all your character flaws and play a game that simply involves killing mobs repeatedly. boring pve grind game imo. and youre a pro.
if you can successfully answer "i can grind out a hero cause all i want is pvp" then i have some news for you; the RPers pvp. oh yes. far more intensely than you at the hero stage too. your fights take 3 seconds, ours can last 3 hours.
RP
Isnt
pve.
in fact much the opposite. RP involves CREATING a character that weeps when he kills; to a lesser extent it involves creating a toon of level x to accomplish and facilitate the killing process.
if youre telling me your character only pvp's cause thats what the cool kids to, well sorry - im having much more fun than you and im not even A grade.
how can you spew so much [censored] when all i said was LOLRP....
If im at war with someone, and im sweeping any area, I have information to beleive an enemy is there, and I am hunting them or laying to ambush them and kill them, thats not pretending, thats what my character is doing, conciously and ICly planed, period.
All well and good, ICly... but, OOCly, would you do this in a newbie area? Would you stop these players from having fun OOCly through IC actions? That's the sort of thing that I'm talking about, moreso repeatedly doing something like that.
To be honest, if he really did have information it would make sense - but let's be honest here. If someone goes sweeping for players, he systematically searches all hunting grounds. I doubt anyone doing a sweep is going to stop long enough to ask if there is even a chance he could know the player he encountered is bearing that tag, if he is actually there IC (likely not), if there is even any way he could have had information about the location, etc.
In short, the OOC/IC boundary is being plastered with a cheap excuse.
All well and good, ICly... but, OOCly, would you do this in a newbie area? Would you stop these players from having fun OOCly through IC actions? That's the sort of thing that I'm talking about, moreso repeatedly doing something like that.
You know, I'm a nice Dwarfie most of the time, but in an all-out war, typically my goal is to win. ICly. Too bad for the lowbies, our and theirs. If it's that important, why don't the higher-level characters defend and shield the lower-level ones?
I doubt anyone doing a sweep is going to stop long enough to ask if there is even a chance he could know the player he encountered is bearing that tag, if he is actually there IC (likely not), if there is even any way he could have had information about the location, etc.
I really don't get it. If a person is out there in a field, he or she is out there in a field. Play your role. If you wouldn't go out of town, stay in town. If you're not there, somewhere, simply don't be there.
It's possible to be 100% IC in lineage 2 - but it's not the preferred mode for most of the RPers. Who are you to tell someone they can't have OOC time? Seriously, that's just ridiculous. Or are you seriously implying that the healer next door got better at healing by hitting things over the head repeatedly, rather than by actually tending the ill and injured?
ETA: Attitudes like that are the reason that you simply can not expect an IC conflict to run its full course and be fun for all involved.
You know, I'm a nice Dwarfie most of the time, but in an all-out war, typically my goal is to win. ICly. Too bad for the lowbies, our and theirs. If it's that important, why don't the higher-level characters defend and shield the lower-level ones?
We're not talking about an all-out war, we're talking about a hypothetical plotline that involves a conflict. Your example is putting the cart before the horse.
Not saying they shouldn't or couldn't, but, really, if you're playing to win, rather than playing to have fun, and ensure everyone else is having fun... then you're missing the point of what we're about here.
So, you have SideA in one area with 5 people XPing at level 20 and 3 people at level 70 guarding them.
I'm on SideB, and I roll in with my level 70 archer, because I know where SideA likes to travel, kill all 5 of the level 20's, and then run out before the 3 level 70s can do anything.
Good game?
Ten minutes later, I do it again, because "the enemy" has "called in reinforcements" (the rezzed lowbies) or has "restored their fallen to life".
Good game?
Ten minutes later, I do it again, for the same reasons. They keep bringing them back! I *have* to keep killing them!
Good game?
When does the fun start for my victims? So far, all they've done is get killed, rezzed, and killed again.
i might have to quote the words of Frau Farbissina (twisted slightly) "Oh! And there are these little tiny pieces of [fighting] just stuck right in the [game]. So when the kids [fight] they think, "Oooh this is [pvp], I'm having fun!" "
pvp is your cup of tea then?
tell me how you were able to sit at your PC (without gaining 50Lbs) and grind your butt off to Hero in the few months youve been with us.
now tell me how you were able to bypass all your character flaws and play a game that simply involves killing mobs repeatedly. boring pve grind game imo. and youre a pro.
if you can successfully answer "i can grind out a hero cause all i want is pvp" then i have some news for you; the RPers pvp. oh yes. far more intensely than you at the hero stage too. your fights take 3 seconds, ours can last 3 hours.
RP
Isnt
pve.
in fact much the opposite. RP involves CREATING a character that weeps when he kills; to a lesser extent it involves creating a toon of level x to accomplish and facilitate the killing process.
if youre telling me your character only pvp's cause thats what the cool kids to, well sorry - im having much more fun than you and im not even A grade.
how can you spew so much [censored] when all i said was LOLRP....
you hate what you dont know. you scorn RPers for no other reason than your own ignorange. people like you need to DIE slowly in moderately warm ovens.
Yes Maline I have information, either someone has seen my enemies in that spot before, I know from previous recon they frequent that area. Secondly, lets drop the oh no lowbees. Anyone who is 7x has 10 million things better to do then go red on pre 40's, and even more things better to do than go to Alligator Island, or scower lower level necros. The only time you will find this to be a problem is at junctions where multiple levels pass through, Forsaken plains for example, you can have anywhere from 52-75 people run through there.
Further maline the reverse argument of your statement is true. If your in an rp clan that has a storyline where you are at war(to the point where we have used game tools to actually declare war) then wah, cry more, this is a decision made by people higher ranked than you in your clan, if you dont like your clans decisions, leave. Secondly if its a one way war, its not even rp at this point, its just people griefing, and lastly as most of the RP communities uneasyness of PvP i gauruntee 99% of your pvp will be duel based, so if someone ambushes you(and sends over a duel request) and your 'ooc' then click no.
i might have to quote the words of Frau Farbissina (twisted slightly) "Oh! And there are these little tiny pieces of [fighting] just stuck right in the [game]. So when the kids [fight] they think, "Oooh this is [pvp], I'm having fun!" "
pvp is your cup of tea then?
tell me how you were able to sit at your PC (without gaining 50Lbs) and grind your butt off to Hero in the few months youve been with us.
now tell me how you were able to bypass all your character flaws and play a game that simply involves killing mobs repeatedly. boring pve grind game imo. and youre a pro.
if you can successfully answer "i can grind out a hero cause all i want is pvp" then i have some news for you; the RPers pvp. oh yes. far more intensely than you at the hero stage too. your fights take 3 seconds, ours can last 3 hours.
RP
Isnt
pve.
in fact much the opposite. RP involves CREATING a character that weeps when he kills; to a lesser extent it involves creating a toon of level x to accomplish and facilitate the killing process.
if youre telling me your character only pvp's cause thats what the cool kids to, well sorry - im having much more fun than you and im not even A grade.
how can you spew so much [censored] when all i said was LOLRP....
you hate what you dont know. you scorn RPers for no other reason than your own ignorange. people like you need to DIE slowly in moderately warm ovens.
What you describe isn't an IC war at all though - which brings me back to the point of: You can't RP a conflict in the open PvP system without trust. Because exactly that will happen.
As to a level 70 player having better things to do than harrass newbies? Yah... right.
It's possible to be 100% IC in lineage 2 - but it's not the preferred mode for most of the RPers. Who are you to tell someone they can't have OOC time? Seriously, that's just ridiculous. Or are you seriously implying that the healer next door got better at healing by hitting things over the head repeatedly, rather than by actually tending the ill and injured?
No. I just seriously imply that if you're out there, you're out there. As I wrote above, I don't care about your character's reason to be out there in the field, I only care what he or she actually does.
I'd suggest taking your "OOC time" somewhere it doesn't matter, lke in a shop mode in a safe zone.
You know, I'm a nice Dwarfie most of the time, but in an all-out war, typically my goal is to win. ICly. Too bad for the lowbies, our and theirs. If it's that important, why don't the higher-level characters defend and shield the lower-level ones?
We're not talking about an all-out war, we're talking about a hypothetical plotline that involves a conflict. Your example is putting the cart before the horse.
Not saying they shouldn't or couldn't, but, really, if you're playing to win, rather than playing to have fun, and ensure everyone else is having fun... then you're missing the point of what we're about here.
No. Ready what I wrote. Not I am playing to win, my character is. My fun depends on my ability to play my character, whose motivations are seldom my own though.
And as I wrote above, I don't care about plotlines either. Go and play your character too. We will see what plotlines will evolve from the interactions of them by themselves.
One thing that I do, in the event that I have to have a character where it doesn't belong (and a few of the posters here have seen this) is that I change my title appropriately.
For instance:
When Olorae had disappeared this most recent time (she has a knack for vanishing), no one knew where she was ICly. However, she was right there during clan hunts and whatnot. The difference was I changed her title to 'OOC Elder' or something like that, so that it clearly portrayed (or surely should have) that she wasn't actually there.
Just a little something I do, if I can. I realize not everyone is in a clan with titles / title rights, but it is something to consider.
To be honest, there's no difference between your character being in shop mode and your character being 'on a hunt' as far as 'duty to be IC is concerned'. There are characters who are unlikely to sit around the town square peddling their wares all day, and there are others that are unlikely to hunt.
From an RP sense, neither is more or less risky (in fact, I'd argue if you have powerful enemies, showing your face IN town might be more troublesome than to some green mobs outside), and neither 'matters' more than the other unless your 'RP' partner is taking the convenience to god-mode the hell out of you.