I thought it was a very intersting discussion on the locked thread and really wanted to point something out in it. While spud has some very good examples of absolute power and its corruptions he is missing a very very large difference between and MMO and WW2 Germany.
GMS are employed because there are people playing their game. The minute GM's begining banning everything in sight, as spud thinks would happen, revenue would disapear, they would in turn then be without a job, and then go hungry and live in a box on 3rd street.
ultimatly this is a business, if GMs go gestapo and players stop having fun, they stop paying and the game dies. However this could very well happen now with the 'soulless ones' and peoples frustration with that. No matter how much power a GM is given the player base still has the most power because you write their check. If the service isnt satisfactory or not what you feel, stop paying them. You cant stop paying a real life tyrant.
You should have put economics on your list of things to study ;)
I would argue this is a rather too literal synopsis of the point Spud was making.
Simply, if you call for some entity to have COMPLETE authority over you (with no other check or balance), then the opportunity exists for those entities to 1) make mistakes, or 2) be tyrannical (too literal).
The rest of his argument was illustrative in nature--an allegory.
I agree with his central idea though. If one person can summarily 'execute' others---it is only a matter of time before the masses come to regret having ceded that level of power/authority to the one person.
The general concept would be summarized as "be careful what you wish for".
After months of play, I also don't want to be banned and lose the effort I've contributed because I lost some item and typed 'dammit' in chat, either.......
At first this uber GM brown-shirt bans the souless....then those who curse....then those who taunt....then those who seem to him/her to have too nice of stuff too quickly....then, finally, you and me.
No thanks.
a player (s) are suspected, and obviously SEEN on the spot as being without a doubt suspect, should be then temporary moved to a location in which for a duration, would not be able to do anything. Until proven innocent or guilty, they will remain, when the investigation is finished, the result is either ban or the aloted time they were stuck in "arrested mode" will be credited back and them moved back to the previous locaiton..
a player (s) are suspected, and obviously SEEN on the spot as being without a doubt suspect, should be then temporary moved to a location in which for a duration, would not be able to do anything. Until proven innocent or guilty, they will remain, when the investigation is finished, the result is either ban or the aloted time they were stuck in "arrested mode" will be credited back and them moved back to the previous locaiton..
Problem solved..
Lol:-
Player from Jail: What the...
GM: You ignored my tells for 15 minutes
Player: I was having a poo!
GM: Yet still able to attack mobs for 15 minutes? You sir are banned.
Do you honestly think that we would be any more susceptible to wrongful bannings if we left it up to the GMs to investigate us? I've seen people banned for things they didn't do. People banned for supposedly exploiting a certain quest that was bugged at the start of interlude. Clan mates banned for supposedly being farmers (Oh no, we did raid bosses with them). People banned for buying/ selling adena just because they where transfering adena between accounts.. from one character to another. Offensive language bans aside, one person got a 3 day ban for saying, and I quote, "I will rip off your head and excrement down your throat". If your enemies are like ours you will get ridiculous mass petitions sent against you.... and some of it actually sticks. I'm not complaining about the rules we actually break, but those that we don't... having to fight the gms so they can investigate the situation further for 2 weeks is a pain. Sure, we where eventually unbanned, but that's besides the point. To those of you who agree with Spud... you have yet to explain how GMs walking around and taking names would change the way they investigate players. There is a huge step you are all missing. There is a process involved. Red tape. Some middlemen maybe. We don't know. But there is a reason why it takes so long to get rid of an offender. There is a reason why some are unbanned. Investigation. Please tell me how a free roaming GM would change this process.
Drakkos once again, it cant get that far, if that many people are baned, the game stops being profitable, game stops being profitable, GMs loose their job, or more accuratly, these GMs will have to go their supervisors who will have to report to their share holders, why did you ban 300 accounts at 15 dollars each and cost our company 4500 dollars in revenue per month, 54,000 a year, which is more than we even pay that GM who baned all those people?(no idea if this is true but you get the idea). A GM who went power crazy like that would be fired for the sheer business prospect.
Spudniks alegory is fine, but not applicable to a GM because the needs of the business comes before some GMs wanten quest for power and tyranny.
I work for a cellular company as example. I have the ability to terminate and suspend peoples service at will, issue credits and charges, and do ANYTHING I want to ANYONES account. Will I? No, because issueing of credits, dismissing peoples accounts because they piss me off or I dont like them directly effects the profitability of my company, and my paycheck.
There are 3 posters that always fight your awsome soulutions. Start remmbering who they are and you will figure out by removing the bots it might hurt there game play. Any ideal that removes them has some kinda merit and should be built apoun to improve the ideal or leave it as is. Right now the current system is non- exsistant.
Once you post on a ideal to make or put a system in play that will eradicate them, the mule posters will shoot you down lol.
every catacomb/necropolis
tower of insolence
imperial tomb
wall of argos
blazing swamp
forsaken plains
...that area next to aden with the sillenos that i forgot the name of...
bandit stronghold (the magic-using ol mahums)
...that area west of guldio with ratman warriors, forgot the name...
forgotten temple
red rock ridge
if i go to any one of these places i bet i can find at least one "bot" there, regardless of server or time of day. that suggests to me that the GMs have not been there, on any server at any time. there is no visible GM footprint. the problem is not that they dont ban third-party software users (i use this term because there are a great many people that play this game on "program assisted" mode, and they are not necessarily automated), its that there is not feedback to prove to players that the bots have indeed been banned. they could really reduce their workload if they had two GMs going around every area, then compare lists. if they get a petition for an area they have already investigated, they simply ignore it, for the sake of efficiency. these lower tier GMs wouldnt be making decisions on bans, they would simply be "jotting names down" as you put it. infinite petitions, more than one possible at a time. bots should be banned in every non-instanced part of the game, at the very least, because seeing them is what fustrates the playerbase. the inability for players to see the GM footprint is what makes players quit.
Your ask to write names down becasue they cant log into the server. If they were allowed you would not need to write down anything, because they would be everywhere checking stuff.
durring that event with the rice cakes, they were all over the server, typing in hero chat and dropping worthless yet entertaining goodies and such. this was on the official server, not PTS, i think it got the best reviews of any event to date. besides that, even if the code didnt allow it (though it DOES), NCNA HAS the ability to make a couple ordinary toons with silent step and 5million dimension stones, and just run around looking for them. they dont need GM tools to get a initial report, and it would probably be a hella lot more fun for the GMs to hunt down bots, than to read petitions. WHY dont they do that? takes someone smarter than i to answer that.
I think that the idea of actually logging into a non-GM account to prove either way about the bots is a good idea. I know this would not work for every situation, but there are some things that are easier to see from the front end than they are from the back end.
What might be useful is if a GM could posess a suspected char. What they could then do is move the char around and see how the rest of the "train" reacts.
I think that the idea of actually logging into a non-GM account to prove either way about the bots is a good idea. I know this would not work for every situation, but there are some things that are easier to see from the front end than they are from the back end.
What might be useful is if a GM could posess a suspected char. What they could then do is move the char around and see how the rest of the "train" reacts.
Now thats a sweet ideal :) You sell it kinda short though, i think it would work almost all the time.
What might be useful is if a GM could posess a suspected char. What they could then do is move the char around and see how the rest of the "train" reacts.
now THAT is a good idea. it can be done with mobs but i suspect it would take a lot of code to do it properly. basically, need to stop taking input from streamA, and instead take it from streamB.
it would work every time. if someone in my party starts running in circles and dropping items and then immedietly picking them back up, as a real player yea im gonna react. that also shows the GM footprint, if a GM takes over your toon for a couple seconds. bot trains on the other hand, the GM can just posses them all, unequip all their gear, and sit back and laugh. then ban.
now, Bhod, i specifically gave the example of a blank cheque. why? it illustrates that giving someone AUTHORITY and LICENSE to do willy nilly whatever the F they want to whomever the F they want for whatever reason is essentially removing the red tape.
tura, how many million germans were slaughtered among the jews? that figure isnt highly publicised. in a country of 8m, killing 6m makes you King Nothing. thats exactly what might happen in L2 - banning the masses so a handful can play peacefully. and then bammo on them too. true enough the company would go bankrupt. and for good reason - the Gms were let loose.
insanity: :p
i cant believe im taking thw words of another troll that i despise ...
true. there are no legit players, not one. if they banned every EULA breaker there would be 0 players left. but though ive admitted to using the LOS exploit, and sent support a mail saying that i had created a private server and was playing on it, and even (by accident) glitched mobs through a necropolis GK, they dont ban me. why is that? because they have bigger fish to fry. they will not ban everyone. they Should, however, ban the really bad ones. ive asked spam several times for a concrete list of bannable offenses and he ignores me every time. you know why? because they judge bannings on an individual basis. your offense is only part of the equation.
in that case:
i block LOS every chance i get. sometimes im not even attacking anything. i just like to put trees and rocks and such between me and the next closest mob, i find it entertaining. LOS, in every game that uses this mechanic, is MEANT to be blocked. if it couldnt be bocked, LOS rules wouldnt apply. mobs would just shoot through trees. its clear to me then, that developers want me to block LOS as a tactic to use against mobs. ive even, oh noes, intentionally blocked LOS in PvP before O.o
*waits*
edit: got a little sidetracked there...LOS really shouldnt be bannable, not even 3 days. maybe 3 days for changing the colors of your interface or saying something offensive in hero chat. this thread is supposed to be about flamming spud so...i blame him for the sidetrackyness. bad spud. -.-
Another possible detection tool is to allow gms to have mobs drop items with specific drop rules. For example, you have have a mob drop 1 green sealstone with infinite exclusive rights to a non-existing char. If you have 2 chars standing over that item trying to pick up for like 10 min, ban them and the rest of the party. Even if they are not bots, they are too stupid to play in the first place.
Another easy test from the client side is to just select the non-aggro mob that the suspected players are running to. If they immediately change target and repeatedly do it, they are bots. This is something that could easily be done by a GM from the front end and not so easily from the back end.
in that case:
i block LOS every chance i get. sometimes im not even attacking anything. i just like to put trees and rocks and such between me and the next closest mob, i find it entertaining. LOS, in every game that uses this mechanic, is MEANT to be blocked. if it couldnt be bocked, LOS rules wouldnt apply. mobs would just shoot through trees. its clear to me then, that developers want me to block LOS as a tactic to use against mobs. ive even, oh noes, intentionally blocked LOS in PvP before O.o
LOS (line of sight) is not an exploit, it is a tactic. Then again, I never thought "perching" was an exploit either.
this thread is supposed to be about flamming spud so...i blame him for the sidetrackyness. bad spud. -.-
Spud still you are using examples that dont work for a company the same as a government or a group of people. If GM's were let loose to deal with EULA breakers and such, it would be far enough controlled so the company didnt loose money.
In the end this is about subscriptions. When subscriptions disapear at the rate your suggesting the company would police its GM's. There would be things put in place on a corporate perspective to maintain profitability. Would innocents get baned, maybe, are they alread, yep, do most of them get un baned, they do if the person cares enough to keep wanting to pay money to these people.
I can almost gauruntee you, the HGMs have to makea business case for every mass banning of illegal accounts they do right, because saying were going to ban 500 accounts this month is saying, we are not getting 7,500 in revenue this month and removing 90,000 from our bottom line, that has to go through some people that has to be reported to korea, and any investors, and they HAVE to justify why they are costing the company 90k a year, or they loose their job for baning those people.
If you have 2 chars standing over that item trying to pick up for like 10 min, ban them and the rest of the party. Even if they are not bots, they are too stupid to play in the first place.
i have before, spent much more than 10 minutes trying to figure out how to get an ead that had dropped on top of an ol mahum tent, into my inventory. eventually i had to admit ead are not easily bribed into jumping off things. i know a lot of real players that will spend 10 minutes trying pick up an item thats in an odd hard to get spot.
now youre starting to want the GM's back into a caged environment where every action can be monitored, controlled and justified.
and we still want fast-bot-bans...
i am so glad you posted this tura. perhaps now people will think twice about asking GMS COME TO FORSAKEN PLAINS THER R BTOS! lol
but i suppose even that would be wishful thinking.
in the current climate, the Gm's are as controlled as you correctly point out. in a climate where GM's were free of these impositions (free of the proove first, ban later apporach) there would indeed be such anarchy as never was witnessed before. so much as exactly i pointed out - most of the servers gone never to return before anyone knew what was happening.
and i bet i could predict what the GM's line would be when he got to stand trial for frading NC out of 23m USD - "i wanted to stop the petitioning for bots because i always got the same names."
I can almost gauruntee you, the HGMs have to makea business case for every mass banning of illegal accounts they do right, because saying were going to ban 500 accounts this month is saying, we are not getting 7,500 in revenue this month and removing 90,000 from our bottom line, that has to go through some people that has to be reported to korea, and any investors, and they HAVE to justify why they are costing the company 90k a year, or they loose their job for baning those people.
They ban who goes against the game rules right? If many are going against it(as all the farmers) they can just do theirs jobs(BAN) and when asked show the proof to who's asking. Simple. Don't have to fear anything about mass bans.
If they are losing too much money with mass bans, they should change their unbreakable rules or implement something to prevent bots and bot bans.
I can almost gauruntee you, the HGMs have to makea business case for every mass banning of illegal accounts they do right, because saying were going to ban 500 accounts this month is saying, we are not getting 7,500 in revenue this month and removing 90,000 from our bottom line, that has to go through some people that has to be reported to korea, and any investors, and they HAVE to justify why they are costing the company 90k a year, or they loose their job for baning those people.
They ban who goes against the game rules right? If many are going against it(as all the farmers) they can just do theirs jobs(BAN) and when asked show the proof to who's asking. Simple. Don't have to fear anything about mass bans.
If they are losing too much money with mass bans, they should change their unbreakable rules or implement something to prevent bots and bot bans.
i knwo you might think it was a joke, but i will say it anyway:
When looking at banning accounts, you have to look at it as an investment.
Lets say you own an apartment complex. Your apartment complex is known for having a drug problem. You find out that several people that would have made your apartment complex their home, decided to live in the apartment across the street because they didnt have the same problems.
If you boot the drug dealers / users then you loose out on the money that they were paying monthly. On the other hand, you will gain people who did not want to live there because of the drug issue. You may even find out that there are more people out there that want a drug free living environment then those that dont.
A clean environment attracts clean people. A dirty environment attracts dirty people.
i am so glad you posted this tura. perhaps now people will think twice about asking GMS COME TO FORSAKEN PLAINS THER R BTOS! lol
Wait till next time that I'll get mad with bots : )
Wonder what you still doing in this game... you must have done it all by now. You seem like a old guy just complaing about what everyone post here in every thread. Every thread I read I see your McDonald fries going against what the poster said.
If you have 2 chars standing over that item trying to pick up for like 10 min, ban them and the rest of the party. Even if they are not bots, they are too stupid to play in the first place.
i have before, spent much more than 10 minutes trying to figure out how to get an ead that had dropped on top of an ol mahum tent, into my inventory. eventually i had to admit ead are not easily bribed into jumping off things. i know a lot of real players that will spend 10 minutes trying pick up an item thats in an odd hard to get spot.
Which is why I said 1 gss and didnt say anything about putting it in a tricky location.
i am so glad you posted this tura. perhaps now people will think twice about asking GMS COME TO FORSAKEN PLAINS THER R BTOS! lol
Wait till next time that I'll get mad with bots : )
Wonder what you still doing in this game... you must have done it all by now. You seem like a old guy just complaing about what everyone post here in every thread. Every thread I read I see your McDonald fries going against what the poster said.
You should quit :D
actually i have.
and i am.
and im not going anywhere. pry the mouse from my cold dead hands.
Slight difference though spud, right now there is little to no GM interaction on the player level. GIving GM's the authority to go out, seek out EULA violators and ban when they see fit, is not what we have now. You prapose if we got that, they would ban the servers dry.
I say thats not possible. And giving GM's that authority would have the checks and balances of a business decision. Train and empower your GM's to make good company business decisions, and you can let them ban when they see fit and 9/10 will make the right decision, if you get a guy making bad decisions, you fire him, because hes costing to much money. GM's may apear to be the ultimate power to the player, but they arent the '******s' of the mmo world who will be baning everything, there are many layers of powers above them that arent intersted in banning but $$$$$$, thats what would prevent your apocolyptic GMs in power scenario
Slight difference though spud, right now there is little to no GM interaction on the player level. GIving GM's the authority to go out, seek out EULA violators and ban when they see fit, is not what we have now. You prapose if we got that, they would ban the servers dry.
I say thats not possible. And giving GM's that authority would have the checks and balances of a business decision. Train and empower your GM's to make good company business decisions, and you can let them ban when they see fit and 9/10 will make the right decision, if you get a guy making bad decisions, you fire him, because hes costing to much money. GM's may apear to be the ultimate power to the player, but they arent the '******s' of the mmo world who will be baning everything, there are many layers of powers above them that arent intersted in banning but $$$$$$, thats what would prevent your apocolyptic GMs in power scenario
i call it as i see it. i saw it in UO, bots were going unnoticed while legit players were banned. all while the GM was all pomp-and-circumstance letting himself be seen.
i was a sales manager for a large showroom of BIG machines, once upon a time. the company i was working for couldnt give a rats left ******** how i sold the products just so long as my minimum sales was high enough.
i suggest to you NC couldnt give a rats left ******** how competent the GMs are, just that they DONT push the big red ban button until directed to do so. and at that only push it with the Left hand, while placing the right hand behind the seat.
and no, i am not a GM. i slept at a holiday inn express last night.
no. we dont. we want eula-breakers to be banned, or in the process of being banned, Before the petition is written. time-between-petition-and-ban = 0 is not quick enough, we need time-between-petition-and-ban = -5. you should be able, in a non-instanced game, to walk into an area and say to yourself "wow, looks like a GM was here." if they can find a way to do that, they will be working less, accomplishing more, and everyone (players and GMs) will feel better about it. at least thats my opinion.
Exactly, so if a GM goes on a rampage, they can always fire him and unban everyone he banned.
would you come back though?
i suggest to you there are FEW jews left in Germany.
Spudnik, can you drop the WWII comparisons? It's insulting that you're comparing a real life extermination of races (btw, there were more people than just Jews in Concentration Camps) to a GAME.
The two things are not even in the same LEAGUE let alone deserve to be compared to one another! Drop it!
Funny how someone makes a few valid points and thinks logically about one thing (right mindset)... (imo, i myself not agree with them all)... and someone eventually calls you or tells you to stop acting....
alright, T, lets draw from the comparison you suggested - how many falsely accused prisonners have enough faith in their justice system to stay in the country they were imprisoned in?
few.
if you were banned falsely and you came back you would be a minority.
case in point Rich Schleifer.
Jethro: do you belong to the band Jethro tull? if not, stop acting like you are.
you never said you were and i never said i was a gm. take your uneducated non-sequitur butt outta my Praise Spudnik thread.
alright, T, lets draw from the comparison you suggested - how many falsely accused prisonners have enough faith in their justice system to stay in the country they were imprisoned in?
few.
if you were banned falsely and you came back you would be a minority.
case in point Rich Schleifer.
Jethro: do you belong to the band Jethro tull? if not, stop acting like you are.
you never said you were and i never said i was a gm. take your uneducated non-sequitur butt outta my Praise Spudnik thread.
LOL Spudnik. Sorry bud but you are rude to just about everyone on the forums, its bound to bite you sooner or later. And as far as you know, I COULD be Ian Anderson.
alright, T, lets draw from the comparison you suggested - how many falsely accused prisonners have enough faith in their justice system to stay in the country they were imprisoned in?
few.
I doubt that. Most americans would stay in america because it is their "home". Every incident that I have heard of with a wrongfully accused criminal, that person has stayed in america.
In an area like europe, where the culture is fairly similar across boarders, I could see them moving to another european country.