This will probably be my first and last topic in these forums but here goes nothing.
I used to play Ultima Online and EQ in the past (5 years total) but a couple of months ago I decided that enough was enough, the engine was getting too old and EA had completely ruined the game for me by constantly changing the rules. I asked in the MMORPG forums about different games and they recommended Lineage 2 and World of Warcraft. Of course I had heard a lot about these games but I wasnt familiar with the rules as far as pvp was concerned. I started with WoW+Lineage2 and, fo sho!, the games looked smooth and there seemed to be such vastness in the world.
But the reality was completely different. It did not take me soon to realise that a player couldnt really change the world and, eventhough the size of the area, options were extremely limited. Basically I could :
1) Grind in order to gain levels.
2) ...
Now I dont know about you guys but staying in one spot, killing rats, for hours isnt really the kind of thing I find fun or relaxing. Work at the office is really, REALLY, repetitive so why should I want to continue with that stuff on my free time? Yes, I know the answer, to reach the end game and reap all the benefits that come with it...I could accept that in theory if the game offered a lot of content while grinding my brain cells into oblivion. But it doesnt do that AT ALL!
In WoW and Lineage2 the monsters gradually change when you get stronger but the process of leveling is the same from the beginning to the end. You kill, gain some XP and move for the next kill. F2, mouse click, F2, mouse click, F2...kind of reminds me of mass production line and people making minimum wage in them.
Some people are, of course, willing to go through with this in order to be competitive in player versus player (arrrr) combat or just get all the shiny equipment in order to look cool and chill out with their 70+ lvl buddies (not my cup of tea). But is it really worth all that trouble?
I can quess you have heard enough whining about the element of risk in these newer games, or the lack of it when compared to old school mmorpg. These days you just cant expect to find a game where another player would drop all his/her equipment in death or that a thief might be able to steal something very valuable from your purse - like an epic sword or like.
But ultimately the biggest problem is the lack of variety. In Ultima Online I could create a new character and literally do whatever I wanted. I could go to the forest and cut down some trees, learn to become a carpenter and open a shop. (Profitable? Indeed, because you couldnt buy anything decent from a NPC. You want some, come get some - from the players!)
Or I could buy a boat and just go find treasures, empty islands and fish. I could mine in a cave, I could build a house - NO, a CASTLE ! - and decorate it. Hell, I could even open a casino in the middle of a forest and hope that no-one would find their way in, because a thief could actually empty my house, stabb me and walk away singing.
*sigh*
It seems as if the MMORPG graphics are getting better and the worlds are becoming bigger, but at the same time people are restricted to one or two activities and there is no creativity left. These days I dont feel like I´m in charge. It feels like I´m being told what to do, how to do and when to do it.
Hell, when we talk about gaming, I thought I wasnt supposed to be the machine in this equation but the creative mind. I suppose I´m done with MMORPG´s for now which is a shame, because these games have so much unrealised potential....
What your looking for is a dynamic MMO, but i don't know if such a game would survive in todays time. About a year ago such a game did exist it was called WISH, but like most it didn't make it out of beta. It had alot of promise....
I don't think we can have a Grindless game...Be it in what ever form, it's a grind.
in L2 you do have to grind to gain. whether grinding by fishing or grinding for exp or grinding the money game, its whats required to get anywhere. grind - its whats for dinner.
but its not the grind thats the focus in most people's minds. there are 2 things the players look for to gain by grinding; either development of their character in therms of skills and personality (using creative writing), or the accomplishment of a new set of attributes. that sounds a lot like the same things, but they are different completely and let me explain why...
grinding for new skills and personality: this is what some people refer to as Character development, others simply as level progression, but it boils down to an increase in the individual's ability to continue in the game. skills that hit harder, move faster, armor that boosts attack power, etc. all these things boost the individual's ability to do the 2 necessary functions of Lineage2 which are PvE, and PvP.
grinding for a new set of attributes is something completely different; this involves starting a new character with new gear playing a new person. when done properly, the player develops this character into an extension of himself/herself. the player becomes the toon in game, or perhaps the toon becomes the player out of game. what can be gained in this? well you get to know yourself a lot better than you would have before you started playing. youll notice you might become a more brash and rude person out of game if you play something with an evil personality. players that you hang around with will notice how focused you are on just acting like your character, playing pretend that your million-year old dead elven family is stalking you, etc.
all else fails the friendships you can make in this game.
im not sure i understand. you mean to tell me, that instead of grinding on mobs, you want to, umm. grind on trees. and rocks. and do other resource-gathering activites. L2 has that. L2 also HAD drops on death, but they eliminated it because people complained too much about it. you want a game where you can own a caslte? there may be one but im not familiar with it. you want a game where you can get together with some friends and change the color of the moon? doesnt ring a bell. you want a game where there is actually something to do, instead of just getting up to lvl 70 and chatting with your friends about how shinny your gear is. well, best of luck finding that game, you probably wouldnt notice it, even if it one-shotted you and called you n00b.
Spudnik. The thing is that I enjoy playing an evil character, because my everyday personality is...what´s the correct term for it in mmorpg forums...yes, carebear.
But I just couldnt find any evil from this game. I wanted to play a necromancer but first I have to grind my way to level 40 and then even higher in order to gain the required skills. But what can I REALLY do when I´m at the end game? Spam spells and **** down people without really gaining any twisted pleasure from it - except knowing that they have to grind to gain that XP back.
What I really enjoyed in the past was that I could actually collect trophies and **** the body to small pieces. Now that was bloody but very entertaining, I would collect skulls and decorate my house with them. The floor in my cellar was full of blood, it was dark and there were candles everywhere to create the right mood.
And I would, from time to time, create a shining gateway to the city centre. And when a lone traveller would come through the gate....well lets just say that his/her life would get a lot more interesting...what was left of it anyway.
The best thing was that I didnt have to grind for months in order to have such fun. Couple of days was all it took to collect enough wood and iron, to convert them to the required money for my house and the decorations I made myself.
Nice post, be even nicer to see L2 get a North Amercan Dev team instead of just text translators :p Until then, your stuck with a korean game in a NA market.
KingdomForCoin. Exactly, I want to roleplay my character and choose the way I play in the environment. I dont always want to be a warrior/mage who has to face unlimited amount of monsters . I dont want to see bears, insects and rabbits drop gold coins or magic potions (*laughing* at the stupidity) so I can constantly upgrade my weapon. Instead I want to skin these animals, cook them in order to eat lunch and make equipment out of them. And, when I feel like it, I´ll just grab my butcher´s knife from the kitchen and chop someones head off - nothing personal.
One complaint that isn't true is you can change the world. Maybe not in the obvious way but adding politics does change the world.
I'd say try FFXI. I played that for a good 2 years and really enjoyed it. You can go log trees, mine for ore etc etc. Only thing that sucks is to level you NEED a party unless you go beast tamer. Sounds to me that this may be more your type of game.
Can't say I like the idea of someone coming by and just stealing my equipment. I never played UO but that seems like a huge pit fall for me. Especially in this game that would really suck.
As far as dropping all your items. Play a perma red character if that thrills you. There used to be drops on death but they took it away and replaced it with death penalty (not a good idea IMO).
What was it that Baudelaire said...the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist?
Well, I say the second greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that true iniquity comes easy. Even the devil has to grind, and dare I say, against a truly Supreme Power, and in a completely unwinnable cause.
So tell me again, why are you so afraid to stick around to find out what you are capable of in L2? :D
I've played L2 a lot (3 years, been hero like 10 times etc) and I did try WoW for a while... (got to raiding Kara etc).
I have to say that L2 held my attention for much longer than WoW.
I'm not going to make a long post because it's not really worth the effort, but I will say that at least for me, L2 always provided something meaningful to do. It was always a little boring, yeah, but there was always something for me to do. In WoW, I levelled up to 70 really quick, got keyed for all my heroics and got all my heroic gear for Kara and then boom, done. There was really no point in logging in except to raid. Unless I wanted to farm gold for an epic flying mount that had no use since I'd already hit level 70 and didn't need to travel around much.
I did the PvP in WoW for a few weeks, and it was meh. In L2, fights actually mattered, it got your adrenaline pumping even. WoW BG's were just a joke, an annoying [cesored]that you were forced to do for decent gear for the arena. The arena wasn't bad but even in close fights it never came close to being as exciting as L2 did.
In L2, wars are a source of constant activity and something to do. You can always exp, because unless you're crazy you're not going to cap out before the next expansion comes out which raises it more. You can always work on making money through Giran, and improving your gear through overenchanting and augmenting.
L2's always a little boring, but I found it superior to WoW, which was kinda fun while it lasted, which wasn't very long, and then unplayably boring after that.
/edit: And if you want to be "evil", that's easily done when you get involved with the server community. I had quite a bad reputation for a while (probably still do!) and people still dislike me for my actions in the game like over a year ago. It's just a little more real than roleplaying.
But stealing, and variety in general, adds so much to the atmosphere.
One day I was playing UO, I heard about a possibility to fish treasures from the sea if you had this special fishing net. A trustworthy person gave this information to me in the city and actually promised to sell me one if I paid 500 gold pieces for it. I agreed and we went to his house to get this item. Truly enough, he sold me the net and I paid in full, only to realise that he stole this net back from me instantly after the deal was over.
So he laughed at my ignorance. Only to find out that by opening a door to his apartment he did not just let me in, in my newbie DISGUISE, but my friend who was using stealth and attacked this person. We completely cleaned his house and made more money than what we had earned during our first three months.
one thing that i can see you will not like about this game is that its hard to do it solo. it can be done, sure, but the design is based more around clans of people working together to compete for things. L2 is lacking a bit in the customization department, you cant get your own house and decorate it because there are clan halls in game that "house" 140 characters, and can only be minorly customized. and really, im glad L2 is lacking in realism. if it were realistic, it just wouldnt be any fun for me, not to mention all the 13-year-olds would ahve a hard time between defining where the game stops and reality begins. i dont want to have to let my character sleep in an inn for 8 hours a day just for the sense of realism. and blood and guts are overrated, but thats just my opinion.
And that´s what it comes down to. I´m in the minority with my opinion and the MMORPG´s reflect that.
Altough it has to be said that at the moment the companies are just going with the flow, creating lots of games with similar rules. No risks, more cash. It seems as if the future is filled with nice graphics without real substance.
you can own a castle in L2.
you can gather stuff and craft.
you can fish.
you can certainly have fun befor lvl70.
but L2 isent for you.
You want everything out of a game without putting any effort into it. If that game existed, how long do you think it would last? If you could have everything from day 1? what has changed day 10? and everyone will have everything. I dont se the point in it.
i wish there was a free game like you describe, a game you can do ANYTHING. but, such a game would be utterly chaotic. no rules? what do you think would happen? I know.
Sounds like you want real life in a game, I say go live your real life, and skip the gaming :)
ICKE, i thought i was only one out of a thousand before i read your post. Unfortunatly, live decided that i would born and reach the age of enjoying MMO just too late. Too late to enjoy those good old MMOs (that i also can't stand the engine and graphism, there is a limit) when people still enjoyed them. Ive played few UO private servers and always wanted to become a pirate attacking other peoples so i can get on their boat, picklock the boat inventory and steal the money. I didn't get that far but still had done many evil things (executing someone on a little island with no ressurecter :P... only the most fearful character of the server and his castle).
But now, i am stuck playing with people that enjoy such things as teleporters and 12hours straight grinding. At least some people say Hi and stuff but except that, everyone looks like zombies. I surely died more then i used the GateKeeper (and i even surely used the boats more then the GateKeeper too <- and i was mostly alone). I surely used the GateKeeper less then 3 times with my lvl25 Elven Knight. Wouldn't it be much better without the GateKeeper? People travelling with their own feets, using the boats, etc. Some people wouldn't want to walk as << it's long>> but yet lot shorter then time spent on Grinding (which i find more boring). I like to explore the map with my own eyes and i also think that the elimination of the GateKeeper would give many opportunities to players and the game. Player Killing would evoluate as people being EVERYWHERE, not only in Giran and Good XP spot. The economy would be so much better as people would make shop in every towns since others wouldn't only have to go to Giran using the GateKeeper. With differant prices from NPC and/or players so we could also do commerce. Wouldn't it be crazy to use the land's mountains to set up ambush!? They could also make it so you lose a certain percent (like 5%) off your money that the PKer could steal (instead of equips). If so, i would offer my help as a bodyguard to lower levels then me(with the help of my team, of course) since i'm going Templar Knight and that's what a Templar Knight would do . I could also hunt some possessed players (bots XD) since they ruin the game. [I'm totally daydreaming... a totally beautiful game...]. But if i'd be a bad character, i certainly would get on a boat and make people pay to stay or make them jump off :P (PIRATES!!)
But i fear the mass prefer grinding and have it all easy(boring). It makes me feel so lonely T_T. **** you destiny, why couldn't you make me play with those good old games when they were at the top.
It's sad that you leave, it's a great lost... especially if we compare it to the amount of zombies playing this game(easily 99% as far as i can see). But i want to precise that i have played many games and i like Lineage2 because i have much more thing that i can do(explore, castle siege, 7 signs, raidboss, etc) compared to the other games nowaday. And when i get depressed at bots and grinding, i just look at the map i got in the case i bought and which i have nailed on the wall right next to me and see that there is so much to see and explore and that keep me going. The ultimate goal is not to reach lvl 80 and pwn, that's the ultimate goal that players create for themself. But if i were in charge of a game, i'd make it incredibly hard because i don't want people to reach last level, i'd want them to evoluate all the time. You don't have to be max level to enjoy.
"You want everything out of a game without putting any effort into it."
Well, considering I played Ultima Online for over 5 years, that statement is not completely true. You could not have "everything" in a day but all different aspects were there to be taken from the beginning, and there was enough content for years of gameplay.
Pre UO : R was not chaotic, it worked because the world was run by players for players. When people were given freedoms, they were able to really relate with their character and play it to the fullest extent. There were psychotic killers around (PK), for sure, but there were even more people who kept them out of sight.
Because when you died, you lost everything. And a couple of new characters were actually able to kill a player with grandmaster skills if they knew how to play. High risk and high reward.
you can own a castle in L2.
you can gather stuff and craft.
you can fish.
you can certainly have fun befor lvl70.
but L2 isent for you.
You want everything out of a game without putting any effort into it. If that game existed, how long do you think it would last? If you could have everything from day 1? what has changed day 10? and everyone will have everything. I dont se the point in it.
i wish there was a free game like you describe, a game you can do ANYTHING. but, such a game would be utterly chaotic. no rules? what do you think would happen? I know.
Sounds like you want real life in a game, I say go live your real life, and skip the gaming :)
Nah, you are totally out of it. Of course you won't have to sleep 8 hours in a Inn and stuff (for what another dude said). And of course it's not going to be THAT REALISTIC. It's just that you can do much more (SO MUCH MORE). Also, it might be easier to get good enough to start playing the game for real BUT THERE IS STILL A LOT OF EFFORT TOO. In fact, it's the reason why people don't like them nowaday... imagine such things as no teleporters, no instant ressurect, lost of your equips and goods, etc. It's in fact much more effort. People nowaday want it all easy (i.e Bots)
And everything nowaday, turns around grinding. At least, on UO, you could mine many minerals (with a certain color) and make an armor out of it (and the armor would be the same color as the minerals). We even build a shop with a board where people could post there order and we craft it. It was near mountains and forest to gather ressources and near the road for people to find themself easier. I built a kind of Inn close to it with a dock for my boat and someone made a caslte. We pretty much built a town! That, my friend, was a challenge.
I share much of what you posted. I started playing UO the day it released in Sept. 97' and played for three years, but after Tramal sp? I had to split, and went to Darktide, the FFA PvP Server in Asherons Call 2.
You are correct that L2 has far more of what we call "grind" than any game you've played previously. Much of that is because it is a Korean made game, and reflects what that culture enjoys.
L2 actually has the player base that most closely resembles the old school UO crowd. It's a hard game, but it is also an extremely rewarding game if you enjoy Clan vs Clan Warfare, Castle Sieges, and just look at the library and many updates to this game to see all the content.
The "grind" certainly isn't for most; heck, I just returned after a two-year break, but played for 1.5 years previously. I love this game, and find it unfortunate you will not be giving it more of a chance.
UO was by far the best MMO I've ever played. I often say that if they simply took UO pre-Trammal, and converted it to State of the Art graphics and sound, it would be the biggest MMO today, and I believe that.
I'm not convinced you could have a game without a grind.
At the age of 35 i will admit that this is my first MMO so i don't have much experience in the way of MMO's. But no matter how you disguise it be L2 or the questing of WoW. You have some sort of treadmill.
I'm not convinced you could have a game without a grind.
At the age of 35 i will admit that this is my first MMO so i don't have much experience in the way of MMO's. But no matter how you disguise it be L2 or the questing of WoW. You have some sort of treadmill.
One of the wonderful aspects of Ultima Online, was that your skills increased by using them, not by acquiring levels. It may sound similar, but the in game experience is different.
Well actually UO had very little in the ways of treadmills, some have been added later, but they're mostly optional and you can really raise your skills by just goofing around and having fun (except the really hard ones like taming).
The actual content of UO is bigger than WoW, L2 and EQ combined, sadly its just suffering from 10 years of development and switching teams, not to mention aged graphics.
But I still find it very charming to play and it has a lot to offer, just to have your own house you can literally build brick by brick if you want to, to any personal taste you desire is amazing. Just to have something you can truly call your own rocks.
if your looking for a game with new look and lots of the aspects your looking for then vanguard might be the game for you to try out only reason i came back to L2 was for my clan or id still be there the quests for the most part make sence and the quest rewards are well worth the time for questing unlike L2 where the quests suck and the rewards well most of the quests dont give rewards that i would class as rewards id call it vendor trash but there you go vanguard also has the whole aspect of crafting with 3 different major crafting classes and stuff to build like boats and houses and a nice faction system which gives the whole grinding process a meaning imo unlike L2 where the only thing stopping you from going anywhere as any race is the lvl of your toon in comparision to the mobs but anyhow i'll stop ranting on this or nobody gonna read it lol
imo give vanguard a shot
Rampantliones
A GOOD WARSMITH IS AN HONOURABLE ONE :)
Spudnik. The thing is that I enjoy playing an evil character, because my everyday personality is...what´s the correct term for it in mmorpg forums...yes, carebear.
But I just couldnt find any evil from this game. I wanted to play a necromancer but first I have to grind my way to level 40 and then even higher in order to gain the required skills. But what can I REALLY do when I´m at the end game? Spam spells and **** down people without really gaining any twisted pleasure from it - except knowing that they have to grind to gain that XP back.
What I really enjoyed in the past was that I could actually collect trophies and **** the body to small pieces. Now that was bloody but very entertaining, I would collect skulls and decorate my house with them. The floor in my cellar was full of blood, it was dark and there were candles everywhere to create the right mood.
And I would, from time to time, create a shining gateway to the city centre. And when a lone traveller would come through the gate....well lets just say that his/her life would get a lot more interesting...what was left of it anyway.
The best thing was that I didnt have to grind for months in order to have such fun. Couple of days was all it took to collect enough wood and iron, to convert them to the required money for my house and the decorations I made myself.
Those were the days! :cool:
I agree, the old UO days were the best. I left after playing it from beta to about 3.5 years. One of the best in my opinion.
Its too bad you only found this game now. If you had been around in the beginning I'm sure you would have found a way to make your niche as an "evil" player while doing the grind. Back then you could (and often did) drop items on death and training players for their gear was a source of enjoyment and revenue for a great many players. Ganking and greiffing people you are at war with (or don't like) is where most of the "evil" players get their kicks now. If you want to be the bad guy pick a server and find out who the bad guys are on your server and make friends with them. You sound perfect for my alliance on Erica.
I'd suggest you to try EvE Online if L2 does not suit you. You don'T need any grind, only time. You can do whatever you want - killing carebears, be a pirate, an industrial, a mission runner, a transporter or just participate in fleet battles with around 400-500 players involved.
Sure, the setting is completly different but it actually gives you freedom. Just don't expect to run quests like an idiot like in WoW.
Graphics means close to NIL in regards to MMOs IMO. It is no reason to pick any one MMO over another. All it means is that you need two monster machines to 2 box or your laptop's integrated graphics card will be inadequate to run the game when you travel O.o
Bottom line is that L2 is too clique'y and not populated enough across all servers to make the game as fun as it is supposed to be. Surely, it must rock in Korea where you can actually get a pickup group and the general consensus isn't that you're SoL without a clan/alliance. I try to start my own but there really aren't enough live players to facilitate that on a consistent basis at any playtimes (many all nighters spent trying).
Avoid Vanguard, for now. Give it another year to see what Sony is going to do with it, and whether or not they can get a lock down on the bugs and glitches.
I'm not convinced you could have a game without a grind.
Quite easily, though it depends on what it is you want to be. There will, of course, be some sort of "level" system, usually, but that doesn't mean standing in one place for hours on end, killing endless swarms of monsters that magically re-appear.
Change the focus from a mob-based XP system to a goal-based system, and improve your skills as you use them.
you can own a castle in L2.
you can gather stuff and craft.
you can fish.
you can certainly have fun befor lvl70.
but L2 isent for you.
You want everything out of a game without putting any effort into it. If that game existed, how long do you think it would last? If you could have everything from day 1? what has changed day 10? and everyone will have everything. I dont se the point in it.
i wish there was a free game like you describe, a game you can do ANYTHING. but, such a game would be utterly chaotic. no rules? what do you think would happen? I know.
Well... sorta.
You never own a castle in L2, you just possess it.
Owning a castle, in the real sense of the word, would be the ability to improve upon it, change its layout or, in the case of imminent defeat, burn it to the ground.
If you truly "owned" the castle, you could stand in the seal room as the enemy battered down the reinforced doors you had installed outside, turn to your Maestro and give the order. The clan leader and his command staff escape out of the secret tunnel they dug while the Maestro sets off the powder kegs taken from the Hog Cannons, and reduces the castle to a smoking hole in the ground.
Sure, the enemy "took" Aden castle... but now its 40 billion Adena to rebuild it.
You "gather" items from monsters that have no logical reason to have them. If I need, say, stems, why am I hunting monsters? Far easier to go outside Dion and chop down a tree. If I need Bones, I should be able to get a few hundred (roughly 360 of them) off any one skeleton.
Let's not even get into needing 13 blades for a single sword. Thirteen? I've yet to see a sword that required 13 blades, in addition to five thousand pounds of iron. Varnish? Varnish is a material for woodworking, not blacksmithing... why do I need it by the tun for a sword or a suit of platemail?
Fishing in this game is a joke, and rather a poorly implemented idea. It's identical to the PVE grind, except you don't need buffs.
"Effort" in L2 is wasted, and misdirected. It's not "effort" to level, it's simply time and patience. Ostensibly, RBs were supposed to require "effort"... but, well, we have all seen the videos of RBs being taken by 1 party, half a party, or as little as 1 guy. That's not effort.
It's a twist on the typical MMO, but Second Life offers quite a lot of a "no rules" world, and is actually a functional economy and thriving world. Quite an interesting experiment.
And that´s what it comes down to. I´m in the minority with my opinion and the MMORPG´s reflect that.
Not so much that as that, in many cases, the engines the newer games run on don't support dynamic content to that extent. There are things to be said about some of the older platforms, though there is a trade between the quality of graphics and the polygon count, and the resources available (on both the average client and the server) to maintain dynamic content (such as affecting the landscape of the server's persistent world).
With the newer engines being licensed, such as the UR3 engine and the Havok engine and the like, the ability to create dynamic content is slowly returning to the MMO scene. The problem is, overall, the MMO market is saturated with games, and stagnating on an old, tired model. Even the games on the horizon offer little in the way of innovation or creativity.
Given the cost of production in an MMO these days, though, I understand the financial risks involved, and why more innovation isn't seen. Many innovative games are commercial failures; they gain cult followings and die-hard fan bases, but they only sell 20,000 units. There's a tonne of console and 1P PC games in this category.
So, I could cut a tree down and build a house… yeah I want to pay $15 a month to cut some wood. How much wood do I need to cut and how long would it take? In real life it would take months for a team to build a house. In this game you talk about, how long would it take me to build this house from the wood I cut myself? It doesn’t sound very exiting to me, sounds just as monotonous as the grind I am already doing.
The reason games these days have a LONG GRIND is to keep you paying your monthly fees. This isn’t rocket science, if you don’t have a long grind the players will move on and give some other company monthly fees.
If you want to finish a game in a day stick to single player console games and stay off the web or TV could be better for you. It is obvious you can’t be happy.
So, I could cut a tree down and build a house… yeah I want to pay $15 a month to cut some wood. How much wood do I need to cut and how long would it take? In real life it would take months for a team to build a house. In this game you talk about, how long would it take me to build this house from the wood I cut myself? It doesn’t sound very exiting to me, sounds just as monotonous as the grind I am already doing.
Perhaps an hour, if you took your time and built something fairly big. The fun came with decorating it, and then defending it... and defending yourself when you came home, in case someone was lurking around inside, waiting to kill you.
That's not really the point, though. The point of content like this is that you, the player, have changed the face of the gameworld and created content that other players can interact with, either as your allies or your enemies.
The reason games these days have a LONG GRIND is to keep you paying your monthly fees. This isn’t rocket science, if you don’t have a long grind the players will move on and give some other company monthly fees.
Funny that more successful games don't have these sorts of grinds.
The only successful mmorpg that doesn't have a long grind is WoW, and i'll be blunt, that game is a joke. You can hit lv 70 in two weeks if you want, you can deck yourself out in ful ldungen blues within 3 days, you can grind rep for heroics and have a slightly harder version of said dungen, you can raid for easy epics or you can sit and lose 10 times a week and earn some points to get other epics.
It's true the game is growing, but it's not so much because it's WoW, it's because of all the gratification it gives for just playing an hour a day. There is a reason why L2 isn't popular in america, it's because people don't WANT to sit for months to attain a reasonable level, thus they cheat, bot, and so on. Though we can't say that stuff only happens in L2, people don't like grinding in WoW either, so they buy the gold, or buy for a powerlevel.
Simply put, if this game had a lot more instant gratification instead of "working" towards goals (im' not saying it should, i enjoy working for my stuff, it makes me feel good when i finish it) then the game itself would become more popular.
Of course, you could argue and go "but WoW has lore that a lot of people know of!" True, but people didn't go in an outrage so much that illidan is dead, or that they will be killing arthas soon enough, or any other important figure head. Lore in games eventually becomes nothing more than a means to an end to add in new bosses.
Like EQ, the lore was great, one great piece of lore was Kerafym aka the sleeper, people LOVE the sleeper/kerafym, well the next expansion to keep people in the game, is putting Kerafym as a boss. This will make people go, ohhh the sleeper! Time to come back and raid! I know, i was thinking that myself, i would enjoy seeing the sleeper again and see what they did to him; however, at the same time, back before SoE destroyed the lore, the sleeper/kerafym was vastly more interesting being unable to be destroyed. Sadly they butchered Mayong Mistmoore too, in an effort to keep people in the game.
No matter what, every MMO is a grind of some kind. You don't want to grind on mobs, then grind on crafting and creation. Don't want to do that, then grind on the market. Dont' want to do that? You are paying for a very pretty chat client.
MMO = grind of some kind. Period. It's the people who make it all worthwhile. It's why, personally, I came back to this game. The people I have met in L2 have been the best I have encountered. Eve is second to it in community.
There is a reason why L2 isn't popular in america, it's because people don't WANT to sit for months to attain a reasonable level, thus they cheat, bot, and so on. Though we can't say that stuff only happens in L2, people don't like grinding in WoW either, so they buy the gold, or buy for a powerlevel.
I really don't think it's the grind that drives people away...it's the extreme lack of rewards for doing the grind that makes people angry. (More so when you could drop gear when white, before they changed it!) Included in the 'lack of rewards' I have to add that the spoils/key items/recipes are all out of wack as well. And just the fact that they are, and have never been 'fixed' and most changes nerfed the raid bosses drops as well and people are almost encouraged to leave.
If the drops were increased to match your leveling speed + extra to afford a little OE or replacment/alternate gear, I think a lot more people would play...despite the complete lack of PVP 'balance'.
...Oh, and if NCNA would drop kick their current GM's and get some decent people for once to start banning bots. Because excessive botting is indeed something that drives people away, even if it doesn't directly affect them, just that it exists in such blatant and excessive numbers is enough to make people disgusted and not want to play. I cannot stress that enough. If NC even *appeared* to be making effort, people would be frustrated, but not nearly so disgusted. But with what appears to be a complete disregard, despite whatever they are actually doing behind the scenes, people are just going to have one more reason to find another game.
Encouraging people to play your MMO isn't all that different from running a real life business that caters to the 'public' after all. And if you let lots of 'questionable' people into your building...your going to lose business from a significant number of people whose personal standards are higher than the lowest bar of people you let in.
So if people want at worst a 'Family Diner', letting Hobo's and ******s in your restaurant is not going to win you many customers in the 'normal joe-schmoe' crowd. Yeah, they may meet the 'No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service' Policy, but at the same time their failure to meet minimum standards in other areas isn't going to make people want to eat next to them!
You know, my clan is much smaller then it was just 14 months ago. As far as I can tell from talking to the few left, there have been maybe a handful of reasons, and they don't all have to do with the game itself. But, a reduction of full drops is one of the reasons that is cited as a common factor.
You know, my clan is much smaller then it was just 14 months ago. As far as I can tell from talking to the few left, there have been maybe a handful of reasons, and they don't all have to do with the game itself. But, a reduction of full drops is one of the reasons that is cited as a common factor.
If I could directly make a change to L2, out of everything else it's the rewards that I would make so much better.
1-40 I would increase the adena drops and rewards, and then massively rewrite the spoil and drop tables throughout all levels so that although you may not get a full drop, you should **** well be able to get enough materials and key parts to make most of your gear while still making Spoilers useful! (All without having to bot or ebay.)
I have to agree with Orinoco, one of the good things about Lineage II is the people you play with. I guess it instantly becomes like this because the game is so focused on grinding.. when you have nothing else, the people are those you turn to.
Basicly, to make a game worth while, some sort of reward is needed. WoW has raids, quests and battlegrounds, Anarchy Online has twinking and PvP quests, Lineage II has clan efforts and PvP (to a certain extent). In no other game have I felt that good feeling you get, as when you see your clan in Lineage II do something big. Taking Aden Castle for the first time, taking down Antharas/other big bosses, getting that clan hall. Its a grind to hell, but when you finally do it, thats a good rewarding feeling. The accomplishment.
That can be said about WoW or any MMO too.. the first time you took down one of the world dragons, or Ragnaros, or doing Blackwing Lair.. Leveling didnt matter in WoW, you could get to level 60 in under a month. The raid accomplishments were the big things there, as well as tweaking your character with the best gear for PvP in battlegrounds.
Picture this: Lineage II rewards was changed. Spoils were corrected and drops were better, and XP tweaked so leveling would go a little faster (im not saying like WoW, but better). Why would Lineage II benefit from this?
Well for one, prices would go down, people wouldnt have to ebay to get their stuff. The dwarven race would become more popular seeing that spoils would go according to level/hunting area and recipes/key mats would be more common. Crafters would be more sought after, and so armor/weapons go floating around, prices goes down because these stuff are more common, meaning its better to go out hunting for the stuff than ebay it. Less ebaying means bots are more useless for farming seeing the average joe can get what he wants from hunting it. Releasing something like the prima guide in C1 would be even better, because ppl would know what to hunt for to get what they want.
This all sounds good for us players.. Its still tough, you still need to get to level XX, and castle sieges/PvP would be more interesting as people would be geared for it. More ppl to the game also helps. This is the key to Lineage II: The more ppl, the better for PvP/Castle Sieges/Olympiad which is the fun part of high levels to keep you entertained, the new and bigger/tougher raid bosses for that sence of accomplishment.
So, why isnt it done? Seeing as one can reap so much good from just simply increasing drop rates, spoil rates, correcting spoils to correspond to level and faster leveling so more people can enjoy the high levels of L2..? Its because the game is based on Korean playstyle. In Korea, L2 is easier, simply because the game has more players. No need to 2box your characters or ebay there, with 10x more players playing on one server, all with better latency and much friendlier communities (koreans are generally more polite :P).. Finding a random party in the US/EU L2 is tougher because not that many are playing.. Key mats and equip aint that rare to koreans because the more ppl, the bigger chance of more items getting dropped etc.
What makes you stick to a game? People, and the sense of accomplishing something. Why are people leaving? Because the game doesnt really make you accomplish something if you have to yell for groups all day and never get anywhere. Why are people still here? You have a clan, you can group, your going somewhere and you want to feel that feeling again. Its why you love L2. New players sticking to it? They are curious, like everybody else new to things.
Like many before have said, what needs fixing is drops/spoils and faster ways to get to the top part. Why wont it happen? Because what needs fixing here does not need fixing in Korea, and the developers are there fixing what the koreans want, we just get the copy. Its the same reason we probably will never see european language or stuff we want get into the game unless some devs in korea are bored and liked the idea. As the saying goes; Why fix it if it aint broken (for them)?
Well for one, prices would go down, people wouldnt have to ebay to get their stuff...Its still tough, you still need to get to level XX, and castle sieges/PvP would be more interesting as people would be geared for it...Why wont it happen? Because what needs fixing here does not need fixing in Korea, and the developers are there fixing what the koreans want, we just get the copy.
assumption #1: you NEED to ebay to play this game.
assumption #2: you NEED to get to level 80 to have fun.
assumption #3: if they changed drops rates, less people would be one-shotted in seiges.
assumption #4: in korea there is not a problem with drop rates, but in NCNA there is, because we (play differently?).
maybe we should look at what those differences are, instead of ebaying to make the game easier. not that it matters, i dont agree with any of your assumptions. i think if you think its possible for a casual gamer to be "geared" for a seige while a hardcore gamer isnt, well, you're just wrong. if the casual gamer has a +20 drac bow with focus augmented with old skool death whisper, the hardcore gamer will have a +40 drac bow with focus augmented with omgitsyourmom.
I think as online games start becoming more popular, you will probably see less of the original mmo design and start seeing games that have more specialization.
Part of the reason for this is that there are so many people trying these games that they bring with them different expectations as to what is fun and what is not. they are also not "full time" mmo players.
I know many people who like video games but not a one would ever consider an mmo let alone one where there was full looting, stealing, pking, etc.
the reason for this is time. They have other things in their life and things that they consider "real" and worthwhile. Having to play several hours per day in order to get some entertainment is not up there at all.
So games specialize. They allow for particular people with particular interests a chance to get online, make some friends perhaps. do a few tasks and then log off.
They are not looking for profound game experiences, but merely entertainment.
And so game companies want to capture part of this market.
Oh sure, it's so easy for anyone NOT in the game business to say that game makers are in it just for the money but the reality is that players are a huge part of the problem. Especially the hardcore players.
They go from game to game with high expectations and if something else comes out that tickles their fancy they so easily move on to the next game.
So any game company, even if they try to make a game that is as all inclusive as they can, is going to be concerned that players are going to stay around long enough to make their venture worthwhile.
I wonder if game companies ran their pricing models like gyms where you "have" to sign up for a particular amount of time if they could then be a bit free to be more experimental?
Because otherwise you get players signing up, then canceling accounts and then moving on. If a game can't make their money back and possibly some sort of profit then why will anyone invest in them?
Artists cost money. So do programmers. And these people want to make games for a living. They want to have money to invest in their retirement, take care of their families and have a bit of fun themselves.
If game companies can't guarantee some sort of stability, no one will want to work there. what is the point?
So getting back to my original point, game companies need to know who their market is and they need to make games for that market.
It doesn't have to sound so sinister as "the man squeezing money out of the masses". Anyone who has ever been in business for themselves knows that you are in business to fill some sort of need. Part of that business is to be around for a long time so that consumers (disdainful word but apt) will know that you are company that will be around for a while and will give customer service, upgrades, new products, repairs, whatever.
Getting some people who love games and want to make the next great sandbox game is not enough. "So what" if their initial vision is lofty if they don't have the fortitude and "know how' to make it happen and to stay around a while to support the game.
If it was that easy you would find more of these games. But it's not.
Now take a publicly traded company and you are in for more headaches as these companies are in business to make money for their investors. If their investors feel that this company is not doing all it can to expand their investment they can take the company to court.
And though I do agree that games like L2 need more to do and perhaps better game play when it comes to things like raids or sieging, they do offer me a very specific game play experience.
I personally don't want to cut down trees, hate fishing and don't want my things stolen. So I would never play a game that touts these features.
However, let's say we have a player base that wants this. The game company does all that it can to create this game and then the playerbase decides that it's "ok" but that another game has something a bit more and they don't rack up the subscriptions. Well, they fold and all of them are out of work and the players who did stick around are screwed because the servers are then shut off.
Dollars to donuts those players might think twice before trying a game that is made by any of the front men of that company. Even if they are well meaning. Just because a person or group of people have a vision and a love of games doesn't mean that they can pull it off.
So then a possible answer is to just make games with smaller budgets and therefore there is less risk. Well, if there is less profit to be made it is harder to get people to work on it as they might not be getting any money. They then work in it as they can.
Possibly why games such as Darkfall take so long to come out. It doesn't help them that players, without knowing anything about the game maker's efforts, start badmouthing their game because it doesn't fit to some sort of expected schedule and is therefore vaporware.
Making games is as tough of a business as making movies, acting, making movies, art, etc. These professions are hard. If it was easy then everybody would be doing it.
So game companies have to specialize, know their market, know that they will make "some" money so that they can continue as a company and retain their staff or attract more.
I wonder how many players have actually worked at a real startup? You then might know the issues that are at stake. I wonder after working at a few of them if they would consider it a great way to work of if they eventually try to find something more stable and less risky. Sure they might not be doing work that is extremely exciting but they get to pay their rent, go on vacation, invest in retirement and have their families.
btw, I have been looking around for other games.
what you should look at is darkfall. i read about it, and it sounds a lot like you want a game to be. no restrictions.
Comming out later this year, it seems.
Aventurine SA hopes to begin external testing by the end of 2007. At this time, they have not released launch, pricing or publishing details.
And from the Q&A Logs:
Are all trees susceptible to being chopped down? If so will there be sprouts taking their place?
Trees won't be visibly chopped down. It would be nice to have the time and resources to throw at this, but it would cost too much to implement for very little return. There are so many things in Darkfall that enhance the immersion that I believe we can safely skip woodcutting if we need to
So the stance where you can build a 'house' almost anywhere has changed?
I'm glad you've asked this question. We feel that the way we're doing it represents the spirit of building anywhere a lot better than letting players place a house or build a city randomly. Darkfall has special considerations, some of which follow:
"Building anywhere" in most games means trying to find one of the remaining flat and barren areas on the map and putting buildings on it that more or less look like everyone else's mess. In Darkfall you have cities and buildings hanging on the sides of mountains, on top of mountains, on wild land formations, on river deltas,with waterfalls and rivers running through them, on small islands etc.. Every one of them looks and feels unique. When you see it, you know which one it is just by looking at it in a screenshot.
We have many awesome handpicked building locations that you wouldn't be able to build on if you were "free to build anywhere".
The sheer number of structures possible in each Darkfall world is also a concern. Each Darkfall world has the capacity for more than 10 thousand simultaneous players, therefore several times that number in total world population. Multiply that by the number of characters each account can support and the possible number of buildings in the world goes up to hundreds of thousands. Even though our world is huge, random building could make things ugly.
The world is content packed. Wherever you go, there's something going on that could be disrupted by random building. The Darkfall terrain is all hand crafted, extreme and unique. Everything is hand-placed. You won't be building on some auto-generated flatland that looks like most of the rest of the world. You'd be stepping on an artist's hard work and possibly on terrain features that we don't even know are there.
The technology allows for random building. We've chosen not to allow it based on carefully weighing the pros and the cons. Of course, just like with anything else, this decision will be evaluated through testing and feedback by the players.
So... well, not so dynamic after all.
Reading about it, and knowing what I do about the MMO market in general, it's going to be a small-time niche game that will be able to support no more than 3 servers.
All-the-time PvP combat, no safe zones, and the ability to lose all your stuff in one death will be a turn off to most MMO fans, unless the drop rate is exceptionally high.
I've played L2 a lot (3 years, been hero like 10 times etc) and I did try WoW for a while... (got to raiding Kara etc).
I have to say that L2 held my attention for much longer than WoW.
I'm not going to make a long post because it's not really worth the effort, but I will say that at least for me, L2 always provided something meaningful to do. It was always a little boring, yeah, but there was always something for me to do. In WoW, I levelled up to 70 really quick, got keyed for all my heroics and got all my heroic gear for Kara and then boom, done. There was really no point in logging in except to raid. Unless I wanted to farm gold for an epic flying mount that had no use since I'd already hit level 70 and didn't need to travel around much.
I did the PvP in WoW for a few weeks, and it was meh. In L2, fights actually mattered, it got your adrenaline pumping even. WoW BG's were just a joke, an annoying [cesored]that you were forced to do for decent gear for the arena. The arena wasn't bad but even in close fights it never came close to being as exciting as L2 did.
In L2, wars are a source of constant activity and something to do. You can always exp, because unless you're crazy you're not going to cap out before the next expansion comes out which raises it more. You can always work on making money through Giran, and improving your gear through overenchanting and augmenting.
L2's always a little boring, but I found it superior to WoW, which was kinda fun while it lasted, which wasn't very long, and then unplayably boring after that.
/edit: And if you want to be "evil", that's easily done when you get involved with the server community. I had quite a bad reputation for a while (probably still do!) and people still dislike me for my actions in the game like over a year ago. It's just a little more real than roleplaying.
But stealing, and variety in general, adds so much to the atmosphere.
One day I was playing UO, I heard about a possibility to fish treasures from the sea if you had this special fishing net. A trustworthy person gave this information to me in the city and actually promised to sell me one if I paid 500 gold pieces for it. I agreed and we went to his house to get this item. Truly enough, he sold me the net and I paid in full, only to realise that he stole this net back from me instantly after the deal was over.
So he laughed at my ignorance. Only to find out that by opening a door to his apartment he did not just let me in, in my newbie DISGUISE, but my friend who was using stealth and attacked this person. We completely cleaned his house and made more money than what we had earned during our first three months.
Ah the joy of having multiple trapped chests that did AOE dmg in vesper and other cities =)