So what happened to L2? Newbie areas are empty, pvp is non-existant below level 70, epic bosses are farmed by resellers, partying has become a thing of the past, and sieging is seen by most as a dull waste of time. How did it get this way and, more importantly, how do we change it?
I believe that all these situations were caused by the power players and the server elite. The people that had every ambition to dominate the game ended up crushing most of the vitality from each and every server. Handled properly, a person with the drive, ambition, and ability to be on top would be respected, envied, and feared. As it stands, these super players are seen as childish, unsavory, and unscrupulous. They have over-dominate the server in much the same way you can over-farm a particular part of land or over-fish a sweet spot in the ocean. They exercised no foresight in their relentless pursuits and the entire game has suffered greatly for it.
Don't get me wrong, I realize that L2 is a PvP game where might makes right and to the victor belongs the spoils, but you can only take so much before you run out of resources. You have to give something back in order to stay on top. Which brings me to my next point of how we can fix this problem and it's really very simple.
I propose that high level clans should stick to high level areas. This should start with all clans with mostly 70+ players relinquishing control of Gludio, Dion, Innadril, Oren, and Schuttgart castles. If you have an alt clan that owns any castle, let it go. Large clans with high level players should fight for Aden, Goddard, Rune, and (even though it's in a low area) Giran. This simple gesture, will bring back more people in the game and incite pvp between the lower level clans as sieges and grudges will become more fun. Lower clans will get more money from these resources and then be able to challenge you as they level up, thus increasing your ability to shine as a top player and making the sieges in your areas fun again. If you are in a major alliance that also wants a castle, just rotate who sits on the throne each week. That way everyone in your alliance gets a shot at being in control of the castle and they will fight hard in it's defense.
Also, you should stop farming the Olympiad. One clan with all the heroes on a server is not only overkill, it's just plain stupid. Why alienate yourselves from the rest of the server in such a way? So many people stop going to sieges for the simple fact that the hero zerg was a complete buzzkill. Choose two people from your clan to be heroes for any given month, then switch out so that everyone in your clan that qualifies gets a shot, but leave the rest of the server a hope of taking the top spot at one time or another. It's this hope that keeps people interested in playing the game. It's this hope that will further grow your competition.
I know this was a long post and I apologize for the length, but it's something I've been wanting to say in one form or another for some time. I welcome any comments and flames cause I don't believe I have all the answers, and I do like to be shown the error in my arguments. Also, I didn't post this in the game suggestion area, because this is nothing to do with NCSoft more that it's something that we as players can do to keep the game interesting.
P.S. This actually happened on my server this weekend and our clan (which is very small) took Dion and Innadril because the high level clans didn't do their usual Hero rush in the last 25 minutes. Hopefully this behaviour will continue on Sieghardt and give L2 a new beginning. We do hope that some genuine small clans (not alt clans) will come to the next siege and give us an opportunity to try and defend one of them because we can't and won't defend both. See you in game...
See the thing you are over looking is the manor. If castles change hands all the time, the manor is broken, and people make LESS money, and have LESS incentive to stay in the game because they can compete with the high level people LESS. Castles staying with a single owner for a long time makes the game MORE fun overall.
I completely agree with you in every single way, but I really don't know if high lvl clans want to give lower lvl clans a chance to get any castle... They just want people to know that they have a castle and they are so proud, that they forget that in order to get that castle all they did was owned a lower lvl clan, which isn't really fair. Also I believe that people from a lvl 8 clan that has a castle simply don't care about anything... as long as it brings them profit, they are happy and they won't give some low lvl clan a chance because it would ruin their reputation. And for this to blame are, of course, the people. I would feel pretty bad myself if I had a castle and then giving it away to a smaller ally, but not because I don't have a castle anymore, but because everyone would then say 'Look at them! The big strong clan got pwned by that lvl 5 clan! Let's laugh in their face, everyone! HAHAHA!' Sorry about what I wrote, but you have to admit it is the truth... Don't want to be the guy to spoil all the hopes, but there is a looong way for this to happen, although it WOULD be something that would give the back to the game something that's almost lost: the fun of siegeing... Same applies for Olympiad... if you lose a battle then the whole clan of your opponent will write 'Your a n00b'. That might just happen even if you win... There is no more fun in PvP and all the rest... it's the mentality that makes all the fun go away.
The hero stuff kinda does, but everybody just ignores TD anyway, so their heroes are pretty worthless, and the clans that are actually fighting have same # of heroes on both sides.
See the thing you are over looking is the manor. If castles change hands all the time, the manor is broken, and people make LESS money, and have LESS incentive to stay in the game because they can compete with the high level people LESS. Castles staying with a single owner for a long time makes the game MORE fun overall.
I disagree...
The manor system isn't a highly complex piece of equipment that can only be handled by someone that over plays the game. Our clan just got Dion and Innadril castles and we pretty much set the manor up exactly like it was before we took over. No one suffers, no problems are had. Anyone that wants to take over a castle should always check to see what the previous owners had set for manoring before they siege. That way, they have a good idea of how they want to set it up. I really don't see where there's a problem.
The hero stuff kinda does, but everybody just ignores TD anyway, so their heroes are pretty worthless, and the clans that are actually fighting have same # of heroes on both sides.
So on Bartz every castle is owned by a different alliance at different levels of development? If so, then that's pretty cool. And if heroes don't rush in and ruin sieges in low level areas, then I would have to say that Bartz is a very good NA server. Although, I'm just taking you at your word. I've never had the pleasure of playing there myself. As for the Euro servers, I probably should have mentioned that I wasn't including you in the post. Since you've only got two servers for the entire Euro area + foreigners (including NA players that have moved to your servers) you probably still have the population to deter most of the craziness that's plagued the NA servers. In that case, just take the above post as a cautionary example.
People won't check, most people won't care, as the majority are ebayers, or profit from ebayers, so have no idea how the economy works anyway.
So you think that the current castle owners on your server are all legit players, and that all other clans that may compete for the castles are all ebayers or dependent on ebayers? Who knows? Maybe they are? But, I think that if lower level clans were able to compete for castles without interference from clans that have outleveled those castle's usefulness, then the desire to ebay or power level may become less of an issue.
The hero stuff kinda does, but everybody just ignores TD anyway, so their heroes are pretty worthless, and the clans that are actually fighting have same # of heroes on both sides.
So on Bartz every castle is owned by a different alliance at different levels of development? If so, then that's pretty cool. And if heroes don't rush in and ruin sieges in low level areas, then I would have to say that Bartz is a very good NA server. Although, I'm just taking you at your word. I've never had the pleasure of playing there myself. As for the Euro servers, I probably should have mentioned that I wasn't including you in the post. Since you've only got two servers for the entire Euro area + foreigners (including NA players that have moved to your servers) you probably still have the population to deter most of the craziness that's plagued the NA servers. In that case, just take the above post as a cautionary example.
Da Smookster...
kinda... The castles aren't held by lvl 60s and such, but they are held by clans with few nobles, and no boss jewels and no heroes. Where as the top castles have a couple of heroes and more boss jewels. One alliance does own Aden/Rune, but besides that I think no clan owns 2 castles.
People won't check, most people won't care, as the majority are ebayers, or profit from ebayers, so have no idea how the economy works anyway.
Castles being controlled and dominated by ebayers would more likely happen if only the powerful control them.
Smaller, weaker, lower level clans are down there usually BECAUSE they don't take short cuts. Lower level clans may not always keep the manor system stable, but I expect them to handle money more carefully a hell of a better than a huge ebayer clan.
To say that lower level clans can't handle the castles is I believe a false philosophy and propaganda of the elite. And high level society has gotten quite snob-ish and ignorant of any new players that aren't cheaters. Some would believe there aren't new players at all.
Lower level clans hold castles to the extent that the larger clans/alliances are fighting or care about a given castle. I'd be curious to see how long you hold onto a castle, and if anyone comes to visit you next siege period or not.
Part of the reason that no one else but big clans takes the castles is because they don't care to / or they fold at the first sign of opposition from a larger clan (1 or 2 parties).
Lower level clans hold castles to the extent that the larger clans/alliances are fighting or care about a given castle. I'd be curious to see how long you hold onto a castle, and if anyone comes to visit you next siege period or not.
Part of the reason that no one else but big clans takes the castles is because they don't care to / or they fold at the first sign of opposition from a larger clan (1 or 2 parties).
I see your point, but you have to wonder exactly when did this apathy toward castle control begin? There was a time when people actually did siege on a regular basis, but the powerlevelers kept widening the gap and conquered every castle. People who played fairly or played less frequently started to demand a relaxed server from NCSoft so they could feel competitive in a market where the people with too much time or too much money were constantly dominating, the rest of the server.
Still, you had some die-hard players that still wanted to siege and went to battle the larger clans with their smaller clans and got smoked. Some of those smaller clan members started to think that they could only get the full pvp experience (since this is supposedly a PvP game) if they joined one of the power clans. Smaller clans became even smaller as some of their players migrated to the uber side leaving the smaller clan even less than it was before. So now the small clan won't siege cause it realizes what a waste it is. And if you're not sieging and you're not griefing anyone, you tend to remain neutral with most clans, so war is avoided altogether. All of sudden all you're left with is a level treadmill of insane drudgery where you have to get to high levels to be competitive. Then your leveling experience is cut short by all the "other people" in the primo leveling spots occupying every room preventing you from getting to the endgame fast enough. So now here's what you're stuck with:
"An insanely long leveling grind that's overrun with automatic players and ebayers and a terrible economy."
This is what people see and say about L2 on just about every MMO forum I go to because the truly fun aspects of L2 have been all but snuffed out. I think that if we just left the growth areas to the people that need to grow, that word of mouth would spread and the game would see a rebirth of new players.
And I'd be surprised to see how long we hold on to the castle we decide to defend ourselves. It would be nice to see some moderately sized clans come in and fight for it.
There's a difference between folding and getting Keeeeerushed. Why bother in that case?
I agree that Smookster's post is naive, and I disagree that that the problems will be solved due to his proposed changes, and some suggestions are impractical (getting castle gives you 1k rep points, losing costs twice that much, so rotating castles is not entirely practical).
That said, Smookie reverberates the same sentiment I've read and preached since... well for me, since C1. The Big Dogs that consumed all the resouces (castles, hunting zones, players as they get to higher levels, etc) and especially those who bypass the whole grinding and earning part of the game (ahem ahem) quickly fnd themselves bored. Like Conan after he'd conquered everything he could.
Stripping away any hope for new generations of players and clans to gain power and size, crushing any threat of competition, making the very notion of competition pointless (like causing clans to fold at sieges) helps strangle the game. Those Top Dogs (or anyone, really) that use less-than-legal methods to gain their advantage over the real Players of the game create their own boredom and lifeless servers.
Midas turned everything he touched to gold and wasn't very happy in the end.
Actually, what I think may be a better suggest is to have village and towns that can be seiged by lower level clans / people.
The problem is that with our server being 3+ years old, there are quite a few very, very high level players and therefore, clans on the server.
The game is setup so that when you get up there in level, you have earned the right to try for and hopefully hold a castle.
What is missing is seigeable clan halls for level 3 and level 4 clans. Towns and villages that are level 4 and level 5 seigeable.
Even then, you will see some problems out of the higher level forces because if it creates a profit, they need it to continue on getting their high level items.
No, I think in looking at this, the problem is the low level game rules. Nothing should change those as long as L2 is out (Just say no to the Sony Solution).
Perhaps the developers can give thoughts to how to allow the lower level clans to compete and own different things on the server too.
The problem is that with our server being 3+ years old, there are quite a few very, very high level players and therefore, clans on the server.
The game is setup so that when you get up there in level, you have earned the right to try for and hopefully hold a castle.
What is missing is seigeable clan halls for level 3 and level 4 clans. Towns and villages that are level 4 and level 5 seigeable.
Even then, you will see some problems out of the higher level forces because if it creates a profit, they need it to continue on getting their high level items.
You're right, there is a need for siegeable areas for smaller clans to fight for. I believe this is why NCSoft created the entire Fortress idea. But, as you pointed out, Fortresses will probably be pretty worthwhile to have from a leveling and monetary point of view. Soooo, now instead of these areas being used for smaller clans, you'll just have more high level clans and their ridiculous alt clans fighting for control of the fortresses and castles. Where does it end? When the game is completely dead and there's no one left to fight?
And I never said that high level players shouldn't compete for castles and fortresses. I only said that it should be done in high level areas. Let the top clans fight it out for the castles in Aden, Giran, Rune, and Goddard. Also let them fight for the fortresses there, Devastated Castle, and the clan house in Hot Springs. Leave the rest of the map to the up and coming clans and the newbies that are just starting out. What point is it to hoard all you can on the game and drown out the rest of the population? An old Spiderman adage is that "with great power, comes great responsibility". I just want to know when some of the top dogs will take a little responsibility for emptiness and lack of pvp that has dogged many servers as of late?
I agree that Smookster's post is naive, and I disagree that that the problems will be solved due to his proposed changes, and some suggestions are impractical (getting castle gives you 1k rep points, losing costs twice that much, so rotating castles is not entirely practical).
Naive only to the point that I hope that some of the people that have rolled over the game will stop and think about how they can help grow new competition and players instead of stomping them out. As far as the practicality of losing the rep points, I'd consider it worth it to give this game the shot in the arm it so desperately needs. It's all about what we can actually control here, not NCSoft. They gave us a visually stunning sandbox to play in and some players bought a bulldozer, pushed all the sand to their side of the field, and then looked down at all the players rolling around on rocks and glass and said "Cry More?"
Just give a little something back is all I'm saying. Let's just try something else on our end to get the game back to the the greatness it once was....
Problem is: The nature of the people that have and continue to dominate the game and have done so without regard to the way the game was meant to be played (exploits, cheats, rmt, etc) will not change regardless of your empassioned plea.
There are some of us who have forgone the steps it would take to create or join a dominant force because we value the ideals you relate in your post. That said, we are in a fragmented minority.
Hey, I play the lottery and always hope I'll win the big one. I likewise hope your post is taken to heart by the players who are responsible for the current state of L2 and its continued course.
The problem is not the players, the problem is NC soft's developement team for not having some sort of vision regarding how sieges were going to play out over the life of the game.
Part of the issue is that when the first castles were taken, they were taken by the most powerful and most organized clans on the server. So in reality, nothing has changed. It is the most powerful and most organized who will have the castles. And quite frankly, that is the way it should be in my opinion. At least in the context of how this gameworld is laid out.
This "should" put a fire under lower lvl clans and alliances so that they build their power. Pretty simple right? However, because it takes so much effort to get an entire clan/alliance up to the level that established groups have attained, it seems impossible.
What should be happening is that an extra component should be added to Dusk (talking off the top of my head here so I haven't thougth all this through yet) so that a clan/alliance that falls a certain amount of average lvls below the incumbant castle holder should be able to hire an npc army (raise one?) of significant lvl to help them with the siege.
Or, as someone has already mentioned, make it so that fortresses are only for small alliances/clans/lower lvl groups.
Essentially it's NC's job to "design" their way out of this and make sure that their game world makes sense.
Sovrath, I always appreciate your posts and pov. However, I'll have to disagree. It IS the players, not the game.
You can certainly make the case and win that case that the game mechanics and development allow for a numvber of player abuses. I'm not claiming experience in all MMOs, but in my limited experience, there is no perfect perpetual, multiplayer world that disallows player abuse. And coming close to that would require loss of player freedom.
To allow player freedom, you must leave Pandora's box cracked if not open completely.
Every step taken by NCS (and other comanies) to "reel in" player abuse is simply met by more creative side-stepping by imaginitive players. Players (not all, but the ones highlighted in this thread) always look for the work-around to gain an advantage over others. If they can't find it (exploits or game mechanics abuses), they'll make it (Cheats, RMT, etc).
The inherent flaw in the idea of smaller sized clan restrictiobns are as follows:
1) Not all "large" clans have all S-grade, nobles. Many large clans have c and b graders within their ranks and the suggestion unfairly restricts thos players and fosters an even greater sense of Elitism in top tier clans whose abilities are hampered by allowing mid level toons in the clan.
2) Shell clans already get the castles. Mid-level shell clans, controlled by the Top Dogs would surely juke the mid-level castles and fortresses. At least the current system seems to keep the big boys busy at the larger targets and allows clans like MidnightExpress to get lucky on occasion.
Sovrath, I always appreciate your posts and pov. However, I'll have to disagree. It IS the players, not the game.
Thank you very much.
However, let's talk about a hypothetical situation.
Let's say there was no cheating. At all. (all take deep breaths, buy into the idea and we continue ;) )
So you get many "High Level Clans/Alliances", some in S grade, some in A. Especially 3+ years into it.
You are still going to get lower lvl players who want to siege. They will have C and B grade.
What do they do? The situation still exists. I've earned every one of my lvls over 3+ years with a few breaks. And I'm 77. That is still a formidible lvl, especially against C and B graders. Regardelss of whether I use A or S lvl equipment.
Cheating aside, the idea of level and equipment disparity would still exist and it's NC's job to apply themselves to the issue of sieging among all players of all levels.
Legit here as well, so we're on the same path. That said. The players who desire to dominate the game still will work toward that end.
Shell clans that own castles are not a cheat. The Big Clans and the players that wish to "clamp down" the server still may.
But I'll tell you what! Let's hope we can convince NCS to get rid of cheats and cheaters long enough to test your theory out! That alone would make the gaming experience much better.
Sovrath, I'm going to have to disagree with a few things you said. Firstly, there is no longer any organization and skill required in taking castles, it's all just brute force. People used to sit and plan and call targets, now they come in and strongarm the castles. Again, this is fine as long as you stay well within your own levels and in areas that compliment your levels.
Most people love a challenge, but not an overwhelming or insurmountable one. To the average player, playing without any benefit of adena injections, powerleveling, or 3rd party software, it would take a couple of years of playing to get to the point of competitive play. Not only unreasonable, but very unacceptable, because in the meantime the only thing to do in the game is level and grind. So now you have only two real levels in the game: 70+, and everyone else.
As far as I'm concerned, the only thing that NCSoft could do to stop this kind of overkill would be to make siege fields in certain areas limit the level of the character that can be on them. If you're too high for the siege and on the field, you instantly petrify for the duration of the siege. But no one wants this kind of fix as it's very limiting. We could easily accomplish the same thing by just laying off. How hard is it, really? Most high level people consider Gludio, Dion, Innadril, Oren, and Schuttgart "scrub" castles anyway. So I don't see where there's an issue.
Sovrath, I'm going to have to disagree with a few things you said. Firstly, there is no longer any organization and skill required in taking castles, it's all just brute force. People used to sit and plan and call targets, now they come in and strongarm the castles. Again, this is fine as long as you stay well within your own levels and in areas that compliment your levels.
Most people love a challenge, but not an overwhelming or insurmountable one. To the average player, playing without any benefit of adena injections, powerleveling, or 3rd party software, it would take a couple of years of playing to get to the point of competitive play. Not only unreasonable, but very unacceptable, because in the meantime the only thing to do in the game is level and grind. So now you have only two real levels in the game: 70+, and everyone else.
As far as I'm concerned, the only thing that NCSoft could do to stop this kind of overkill would be to make siege fields in certain areas limit the level of the character that can be on them. If you're too high for the siege and on the field, you instantly petrify for the duration of the siege. But no one wants this kind of fix as it's very limiting. We could easily accomplish the same thing by just laying off. How hard is it, really? Most high level people consider Gludio, Dion, Innadril, Oren, and Schuttgart "scrub" castles anyway. So I don't see where there's an issue.
Da Smookster...
If you look at it (and if I'm understanding the argument) we are really arguing the same thing.
Regardless of whether people cheat or not, you are still going to get a wide variety of lvls and equipement over the course of the game's life. If there is cheating you are getting quite a bit more higher lvls/higher geared players.
So you will always have a disparity.
However, instead of giving lower lvl clans/alliances a chance to overcome their higher lvled/geared brothers, I've thought of a better idea.
Make it so that anyone can take a castle (which of course we already have) but make it more of a liability for a clan/alliance to hold a castle that is significantly beneath them.
It could manifest itself as taxes. The higher lvled players/clans/alliances will pay more "upkeep" the higher their "rating" is over a certain castle.
However, if your argument is not the disparity between lvls and gear and you are only arguing that players need to "give other players a chance" then that significantly goes against the nature of the game. It could then be argued that players should not pk lower lvl players to allow them the chance to level up faster.
The game is solely about players and their interactions with each other. It certainly isn't about the great quests.
I'm with Sovrath on at least one point. The player community, as a whole, can't change the system we have, only who's the current King Of The Mountain. The developers would have to change game design and /or rules to achieve what Smookie is talking about. (Actually, I might be with Sovrath on a lot of points, but that's the biggest point of his replies, at least as I read it.)
I'm with Sovrath on at least one point. The player community, as a whole, can't change the system we have, only who's the current King Of The Mountain. The developers would have to change game design and /or rules to achieve what Smookie is talking about. (Actually, I might be with Sovrath on a lot of points, but that's the biggest point of his replies, at least as I read it.)
However, if your argument is not the disparity between lvls and gear and you are only arguing that players need to "give other players a chance" then that significantly goes against the nature of the game. It could then be argued that players should not pk lower lvl players to allow them the chance to level up faster.
The game is solely about players and their interactions with each other. It certainly isn't about the great quests.
Agreed, this game is soley about players and their interactions with each other. That is precisely what my post is about. This world of L2 isn't flat, it's a living breathing organism rife with humanity and all it's flaws. As such, the same responsibility of the ruling class in the real world equally applies to the ruling class here if you want to keep the world viable. To promote the growth of the game, you have to use both a strong hand and a light touch at the same time. It requires an ability to both give and take, and the ruling class in this game has yet to learn this.
The spirit of L2 is levels, and these levels apply to ALL areas of the game. The MOB's are level based, the quests are level based, the lands are level based, the players are level based, and the castles are also leveled based. The NPC's that defend the castles I mentioned are at best level 50. Back in the day that slowed some of us down, now it's laughable. Some time ago, I actually saw one of the owners of Gludio castle go to town during a siege and kill one of the guards outside the gate to create a corrupted man. He killed the guard with one hit. I couldn't do anything but laugh at such stupidity. When you're that high over any area, it's time to move on. You've outgrown it. But the high levels in this game don't know how to do that and that's what I'm very concerned about. I don't think it's against the spirit of the game to go to the next level, I think it's exactly what the game is about. I would rather this whole change be a player based choice moreso than a nerf bat swing from NCSoft. I don't want to say you can't do a thing, but I would love for it to be considered in bad taste if you did.
I'm with Sovrath on at least one point. The player community, as a whole, can't change the system we have, only who's the current King Of The Mountain. The developers would have to change game design and /or rules to achieve what Smookie is talking about. (Actually, I might be with Sovrath on a lot of points, but that's the biggest point of his replies, at least as I read it.)
So you don't believe the current kings couldn't be persuaded to change the way they play the game as it stands? Is it absolutely necessary for the devs to control all aspects of human interaction?
However, if your argument is not the disparity between lvls and gear and you are only arguing that players need to "give other players a chance" then that significantly goes against the nature of the game. It could then be argued that players should not pk lower lvl players to allow them the chance to level up faster.
The game is solely about players and their interactions with each other. It certainly isn't about the great quests.
Agreed, this game is soley about players and their interactions with each other. That is precisely what my post is about. This world of L2 isn't flat, it's a living breathing organism rife with humanity and all it's flaws. As such, the same responsibility of the ruling class in the real world equally applies to the ruling class here if you want to keep the world viable. To promote the growth of the game, you have to use both a strong hand and a light touch at the same time. It requires an ability to both give and take, and the ruling class in this game has yet to learn this.
The spirit of L2 is levels, and these levels apply to ALL areas of the game. The MOB's are level based, the quests are level based, the lands are level based, the players are level based, and the castles are also leveled based. The NPC's that defend the castles I mentioned are at best level 50. Back in the day that slowed some of us down, now it's laughable. Some time ago, I actually saw one of the owners of Gludio castle go to town during a siege and kill one of the guards outside the gate to create a corrupted man. He killed the guard with one hit. I couldn't do anything but laugh at such stupidity. When you're that high over any area, it's time to move on. You've outgrown it. But the high levels in this game don't know how to do that and that's what I'm very concerned about. I don't think it's against the spirit of the game to go to the next level, I think it's exactly what the game is about. I would rather this whole change be a player based choice moreso than a nerf bat swing from NCSoft. I don't want to say you can't do a thing, but I would love for it to be considered in bad taste if you did.
Da Smookster...
But that's the thing, they are playing the game based on the rules.
You level up and get powerful enough to take what you want. Whether it is hutning areas, castles, etc.
You really can't blame a player for that.
Now sure, I understand your point. You are saying that players need to step back and "become players" and know when they have graduated from "little league". But the reality is that the rule set for Lineage 2 allows complete and total freedom.
Freedom to scam, to lie, to steal to pk, and to completley "oust" an alliance that has overstepped it's bounds so much that the entire server has had enough (this is what we do on Hindemith).
If you take away that freedom then the game has to be remade.
Already there is that buff that keeps players from being attacked (or attacking) someone who is 10 lvls or more above them up to lvl 39.
But where does that stop? So at lvl 40 they are "ok" and able to take care of themselves. All it takes is a b grader to wipe out a party of c grade lvl 40's.
So then should that buff extend throughout all lvls?
Or should the playerbase be responsible and realize that someone is 10+ lvls below them and not pk them or take care of a lower lvl clan that is mouthing off?
The game is about freedom and player's ability to do what they need to do.
Take that away and you start having a different game. Which is fine. But I want to know the game I'm playing.
And as an example, I don't go around pk'ing players that are lower than me "just because", but I have absolutely no problem obliterating a group of lvl 20's if they "deserve a killin'" no matter what my lvl is.
Of course if they are alts and have the most powerful alliance on the server to back them up then that is also the risk I take.
I'm with Sovrath on at least one point. The player community, as a whole, can't change the system we have, only who's the current King Of The Mountain. The developers would have to change game design and /or rules to achieve what Smookie is talking about. (Actually, I might be with Sovrath on a lot of points, but that's the biggest point of his replies, at least as I read it.)
So you don't believe the current kings couldn't be persuaded to change the way they play the game as it stands? Is it absolutely necessary for the devs to control all aspects of human interaction?
Yes.
You tell me. "Knowing" the top clans on the server you play, could you persuade them? Humans are like that... give them an inch and they will take your ruler.
That is why we have laws. Because we has humans can only be trusted to be "good" for "so far".
I'm with Sovrath on at least one point. The player community, as a whole, can't change the system we have, only who's the current King Of The Mountain. The developers would have to change game design and /or rules to achieve what Smookie is talking about. (Actually, I might be with Sovrath on a lot of points, but that's the biggest point of his replies, at least as I read it.)
It's because we are both old, isn't it :confused:
Solidarity brother.
I started to write a reply, but I can't remember what I was going to say .....
It's like the welfare system and single women getting pregnant and having babies by multiple, different men, so they get a nice check every month from the government.
if it is easier to abuse the system than to be legitimate, people will abuse it.
Hence, we have the Olympiad. The system needs to be fixed, not the players, because you can't fix losers.
But that's the thing, they are playing the game based on the rules.
You level up and get powerful enough to take what you want. Whether it is hutning areas, castles, etc.
You really can't blame a player for that.
Now sure, I understand your point. You are saying that players need to step back and "become players" and know when they have graduated from "little league". But the reality is that the rule set for Lineage 2 allows complete and total freedom.
And I don't want to infringe on that freedom one bit. I love games that are free range and has alot of options. I'm not trying to change the mechanics of the game, I'm making a petition for players to play the game better. All the server elite would need to do is give a little sun back to the withering world, and all they would have to do to make this happen is back off just a bit. They'll still be the server elite, they will still own in PvP, they'll still be in control of the the best castles and lands in the game, but they will have given life back to the rest of the land. Like you said in another post, Sovrath, people need to know that pvp and fun doesn't start at level 75. But as it currently stands, this is just a hard truth that many can't get around.
But that's the thing, they are playing the game based on the rules.
You level up and get powerful enough to take what you want. Whether it is hutning areas, castles, etc.
You really can't blame a player for that.
Now sure, I understand your point. You are saying that players need to step back and "become players" and know when they have graduated from "little league". But the reality is that the rule set for Lineage 2 allows complete and total freedom.
And I don't want to infringe on that freedom one bit. I love games that are free range and has alot of options. I'm not trying to change the mechanics of the game, I'm making a petition for players to play the game better. All the server elite would need to do is give a little sun back to the withering world, and all they would have to do to make this happen is back off just a bit. They'll still be the server elite, they will still own in PvP, they'll still be in control of the the best castles and lands in the game, but they will have given life back to the rest of the land. Like you said in another post, Sovrath, people need to know that pvp and fun doesn't start at level 75. But as it currently stands, this is just a hard truth that many can't get around.
Da Smookster...
I can't disagree with you as a "person" but how does one quantify "give a little back".
Again, let's say "cheating aside", this game is about people "Playing all out".
Being competitive.
So how does a competitive player "step back" when it's not clear as to how much "stepping back" would be effective?
I can't argue against your motives because they are good. "give everyone a chance".
But that is like saying (in real life) love your fellow man, "do unto others", treat everyone equal, etc.
It doesn't happen all the time.
So if it doesn't happen all the time when it counts, how are you going to convince players to back off in a game? Especially a game where there is no real accountability.
And even though you might convince some, you are not going to convince all. So then you will have some players backing off and others going all out.
It just doesn't work.
The only way is to change the game mechanics.
You are betting on players being magnanimous and that just isn't going to work with some people.
However, if your argument is not the disparity between lvls and gear and you are only arguing that players need to "give other players a chance" then that significantly goes against the nature of the game. It could then be argued that players should not pk lower lvl players to allow them the chance to level up faster.
The game is solely about players and their interactions with each other. It certainly isn't about the great quests.
Agreed, this game is soley about players and their interactions with each other. That is precisely what my post is about. This world of L2 isn't flat, it's a living breathing organism rife with humanity and all it's flaws. As such, the same responsibility of the ruling class in the real world equally applies to the ruling class here if you want to keep the world viable. To promote the growth of the game, you have to use both a strong hand and a light touch at the same time. It requires an ability to both give and take, and the ruling class in this game has yet to learn this.
The spirit of L2 is levels, and these levels apply to ALL areas of the game. The MOB's are level based, the quests are level based, the lands are level based, the players are level based, and the castles are also leveled based. The NPC's that defend the castles I mentioned are at best level 50. Back in the day that slowed some of us down, now it's laughable. Some time ago, I actually saw one of the owners of Gludio castle go to town during a siege and kill one of the guards outside the gate to create a corrupted man. He killed the guard with one hit. I couldn't do anything but laugh at such stupidity. When you're that high over any area, it's time to move on. You've outgrown it. But the high levels in this game don't know how to do that and that's what I'm very concerned about. I don't think it's against the spirit of the game to go to the next level, I think it's exactly what the game is about. I would rather this whole change be a player based choice moreso than a nerf bat swing from NCSoft. I don't want to say you can't do a thing, but I would love for it to be considered in bad taste if you did.
Da Smookster...
But that's the thing, they are playing the game based on the rules.
You level up and get powerful enough to take what you want. Whether it is hutning areas, castles, etc.
You really can't blame a player for that.
Now sure, I understand your point. You are saying that players need to step back and "become players" and know when they have graduated from "little league". But the reality is that the rule set for Lineage 2 allows complete and total freedom.
Freedom to scam, to lie, to steal to pk, and to completley "oust" an alliance that has overstepped it's bounds so much that the entire server has had enough (this is what we do on Hindemith).
If you take away that freedom then the game has to be remade.
Already there is that buff that keeps players from being attacked (or attacking) someone who is 10 lvls or more above them up to lvl 39.
But where does that stop? So at lvl 40 they are "ok" and able to take care of themselves. All it takes is a b grader to wipe out a party of c grade lvl 40's.
So then should that buff extend throughout all lvls?
Or should the playerbase be responsible and realize that someone is 10+ lvls below them and not pk them or take care of a lower lvl clan that is mouthing off?
The game is about freedom and player's ability to do what they need to do.
Take that away and you start having a different game. Which is fine. But I want to know the game I'm playing.
And as an example, I don't go around pk'ing players that are lower than me "just because", but I have absolutely no problem obliterating a group of lvl 20's if they "deserve a killin'" no matter what my lvl is.
Of course if they are alts and have the most powerful alliance on the server to back them up then that is also the risk I take.
There's a huge difference between a clan taking a castle and a clan taking a castle with an alt clan. That, IMO, is working around the game mechanics (which are in place to prevent a clan from monopolizing castles). That is not healthy for the game IMO.
The reason why lower clans can't get anywhere is because there is absolutely nothing to accomplish at the lower levels. Most people who start off in this game are legit until level 40 but it all changes when they have to buy their top C Grade gear and get those PMs from the mysterious people on the server. Add two and two together and you see that those levels don't last long.
The fact and the matter is that there is little to be had from owning a castle at those levels as leveling is too fast (especially for some classes i.e. nukers/archers/summoners) and player retention is horrible because players use low clans for nothing but pk protection and a stepladder while they look for something higher level/better. It would suck to take a castle one week, and have half of your alliance unable to defend it by the time the next seige comes (out leveled it, 2 weeks between seiges is a LONG time to grind). Oh, and when you lose the castle, there goes your precious rep points also.
Had a new player starting up a clan here, and he's getting ready to buy a Gludio Clan hall now. All clan halls should be seigeable, all castles should be seigeable, but they need to check a players account and not allow other toons of players in castle holding clans on that server from participating in seige, or signing up even.
They can do this for an event (24h limit on bows on account on server), but they can't do it for something that is more intricate to the gaming experience?
First thing...people are too greedy to give up power.
Second thing...NC doesn't care.
Third...the game has become the tireless grind for $$ to get what you need to lvl sufficiently. Of course anyone in a castle owning clan will call you a crybaby if you complain about the economy.
I do agree that changes need to be made for the sake of the game's legitimate player base. More and more cheaters are playing today than every before, maybe it's because NC has made the game "too difficult". Not only that, I can honestly say that 95% of the people in game I know either e-bay or bot...I know this because they told me. That doesn't mean that 95% of the server cheats, just that a majority of peope I KNOW have and continue to do so.
Lucky for my server there are some clans like Ferslicious's clan that will help you with D grade. Problem after that is, you still need c, b, a and the only clans that can help with that are the "rich" clans. There is definately a lot wrong with this game atm. NC needs to step up and make some major changes that help fix what this game has become. It's just not fun anymore. Players won't come together to fix anything, hell almost every post I've read or put up has been torn to bits.
There's a huge difference between a clan taking a castle and a clan taking a castle with an alt clan. That, IMO, is working around the game mechanics (which are in place to prevent a clan from monopolizing castles). That is not healthy for the game IMO.
I agree 100%.
But what is the answer? I don't believe you are going to convince these players to "let up".
There's a huge difference between a clan taking a castle and a clan taking a castle with an alt clan. That, IMO, is working around the game mechanics (which are in place to prevent a clan from monopolizing castles). That is not healthy for the game IMO.
I agree 100%.
But what is the answer? I don't believe you are going to convince these players to "let up".
I don't think it should be up to the players to "let up" so that's all non-factor. They don't care about me, why should I care about them - seriously. You try to talk to member of top alliance and this is the type of response you get:
"Who are you?"
"Who are you? I don't know you. You're non-factor scrub. War us or shut up."
NCSoft needs to fix their own game. They are changing Olympiad, adding fortresses, etc. They need to "fix" castle seiges.
If you think it's okay for 1 alliance to own all castles on a server then you mind as well approve of botters and ebayers IMO. There is a thing called unfair competition and it exists even in a PvP game regardless of how powerful you and and whether or not you believe you or entitled to everything you can take just "because you can".
Lack of a lower level game is the one thing that kills Lineage II. The barrier to entry is to high cause the game is getting old now. They need to FIX it so that the game can be equally fun and playable at all levels 20/40 and up.
I agree tren. The low lvl game needs improvement, some excitement if you will. Someone had suggested on a previous post to make the fortresses lvl based...NC are you listening? It would help improve the game for the lower lvls. There is a lot out there for the 75 + chars. Not so much for anyone who can't compete in the big leagues.
There's a huge difference between a clan taking a castle and a clan taking a castle with an alt clan. That, IMO, is working around the game mechanics (which are in place to prevent a clan from monopolizing castles). That is not healthy for the game IMO.
I agree 100%.
But what is the answer? I don't believe you are going to convince these players to "let up".
I don't think it should be up to the players to "let up" so that's all non-factor. They don't care about me, why should I care about them - seriously. You try to talk to member of top alliance and this is the type of response you get:
"Who are you?"
"Who are you? I don't know you. You're non-factor scrub. War us or shut up."
NCSoft needs to fix their own game. They are changing Olympiad, adding fortresses, etc. They need to "fix" castle seiges.
If you think it's okay for 1 alliance to own all castles on a server then you mind as well approve of botters and ebayers IMO. There is a thing called unfair competition and it exists even in a PvP game regardless of how powerful you and and whether or not you believe you or entitled to everything you can take just "because you can".
Well, that's hard to answer.
As I said above "cheating aside". Because if I was so inclined, why could I not carve out an empire? Why could I not proclaim myself emperor?
If legit players can gather their armies and sweep the server then why not?
And yes, NC does need to work on their sieges. It horrible. However, the name of the game is create your armies and siege. If there is an artificial limit on how many castles a group can take then shouldn't there also be other artificial limits?
It's hard to fix because NC created an open game where the players get to rule. Because of this and because of cheating, the game has been broken.
I don't really know how to fix it. Any of us could suggest changes but would that change the game in a way where it wouldn't be L2 anymore?
The problem is that most of the high lvl player base is not legit. I personally know a few NON-legit players in those monopolizing clans...it's amazing the things people will confide in you. The richest clan on my server is a farmer clan...what a suprise, they have a castle too! Farm on, Farm on, no one can stop them...not fair, but hey, no one is fixing it anytime soon.
The problem is that most of the high lvl player base is not legit. I personally know a few NON-legit players in those monopolizing clans...it's amazing the things people will confide in you. The richest clan on my server is a farmer clan...what a suprise, they have a castle too! Farm on, Farm on, no one can stop them...not fair, but hey, no one is fixing it anytime soon.
But that's exactly it. If players are saying that the game is broken only because of cheating then yeah... ok.
But if there was no cheating at all (which of course is hypothetical) would then game be "fixed".
I say no. I agree. The lower lvl game is broken. So how do you keep an open pvp game "open" and fix the lower lvl game?
(also a farmer clan owning a castle would never happen on Hindemith.)
The problem is that most of the high lvl player base is not legit. I personally know a few NON-legit players in those monopolizing clans...it's amazing the things people will confide in you. The richest clan on my server is a farmer clan...what a suprise, they have a castle too! Farm on, Farm on, no one can stop them...not fair, but hey, no one is fixing it anytime soon.
I see them botting their nuker subs in VoS all the time. Lagging me with fields of arrows and only speaking after they log off to shut their walker off and log back and in want the area since they are awake now and can do it themselves. "I had to restart I have this area." /boggle
But that's besides the point.
It has nothing to do with legit or illegitimate players, its that a game that relies on competition and castle control should not allow one group of players to monopolize the server in this way.
Taking castles with alt clans is an EXPLOIT (want a definition?) and should be a bannable offense IMO. They can investigate it the way they investigate our bot reports.
LvL base the fortresses, so that you don't have a swarm of heros coming up on some 40+ toons for a fortress that sits outside gludio.
Make the empty buildings in all towns seigable clan halls, again, lvl based by town. Ex: Aden would be 61+
Atm I stay away from PvP because all that will happen is someone will get their "main" and it'll turn into a permamnent war and a lot of trash talking. Why not take the xp loss out of PvP? Then more people will be inclined to partake in PvP. I'm so bored it's not funny, and I'm itching to PvP...but who? Dueling sucks, I wanna PvP, the real PvP, not the sneak up and gank, or Duel, or PK, but active PvP without all the garbage that comes with it.
One thing I saw that caught my attention was the idea that the player community is give and take.
Now, frankly, aside from the materials that the soulless bring to the market... what exactky do we... the lowbies, the neutrals, the scrubs, bring to the table? What do WE do for the top dogs? Why SHOULD they give a rat's [censored] what we think of them and the way they play the game?
And... in that regard I will have to (at least partially) retract an earlier statement of mine. THAT problem, is a Game issue, not a Player issue. Vampyress, LadyMoira, EllieBelly, Kiranya, Jkoster, and others do their share to give back to the community, be it through guides, assistance to new players, tech help, etc... But in-game, unless they are part of the BigDogCartel their efforts fall short if significance.
What WOULD be a good game change would be for the system to allow the lowbies, the neutrals, the scrubs... and their opinions, struggles and efforts to matter. To have some impact on the game itself. Something that could, in-turn, help or hinder the Big Dogs enough to at least get their attention, if not gain their respect or grudging support.
Feudal Europe consisted or Castle Lords and serfs. While the Castle Lords fought amongst themselves for power and in many ways controlled the lives of the serfs, if enough of the serfs revolted they could, in effect, cripple that castle lord. So, your typical, successful lord would need to at least eb mindful of the needs of his subjects.
There are few discussions on the forums that really catch my attention, but something almost philosophical about L2 like this has tremendously.
I have to say I lean towards smookie. I'd agree there are the problems with the games due to NCsoft's development thus far, but the game is primarily about freedom, and fixing many of the problems is going to backfire on that sense of freedom. It would destroy L2 like Sovrath said.
I focus on the here and now and what the players could do - no doubt they can be blamed. For cheating, for warmongering, for conquering far too much, for trash talking. All of that really is unacceptable even with the freedom to do so. I don't push someone down "because I can" in real life, as I wouldn't do so in the game here. And as for cheating, well the game is supposed to be tough - to say the system being tough forces you to do is silly, you had a choice to play this tough game. There is a really undeveloped sense of ethics within virtual games. In real life it's supported by law, class systems, and society, forcing someone to at least act with manners even if it isn't them. Others, it just comes naturally to (the people I would want to be around certainly!). It's naive to say one post, or two posts could get this to change, but it would be foolish as well to say virtual ethics could never form.
Even if the problem at hand is solved, there is something wrong with the elite player base.
This may do nothing. This may change the mind of 1-2 people. But it's definitely an ideal I'm already latching on to personally.
It has nothing to do with legit or illegitimate players, its that a game that relies on competition and castle control should not allow one group of players to monopolize the server in this way.
Exactly.
The keyword here is a "negative feedback loop" (Google it up :)). Basically, the more power you amass, the harder it should be to even just maintain it. Depending on design, at about 25% to 50% of the control, it should become so that you need all this power just to maintain the status quo.
We don't have problem of castle monopoly on Teon. The two big allies fight more on the RBs than the castles. They take the main castles and totally don't care about the others, simply because they're useless for them.
However for olympiads, making them class-based would prevent the happy point giving fair, apart maybe for Sagittarii that are still numerous enough to reach noble to give their points.
Generally the top clans of the servers are not playing the same game. Few are legit, simply because it doesn't make sense for them. More PvE grind wouldn't help them to PvP better. They're playing it more like Counterstrike than a virtual world with ponies in the grazing lands. They can be very nice, generous, helpful, polite, and openly admit they're using a third party program.
And as they set up the level of PvP, if you want to enter it, you'll need an equipments that cost a kidney and a half. They are not playing the same game, that's all.
Generally the top clans of the servers are not playing the same game. Few are legit, simply because it doesn't make sense for them. More PvE grind wouldn't help them to PvP better. They're playing it more like Counterstrike than a virtual world with ponies in the grazing lands.
Agreed. At the higher levels the game is played more like a first person shooter complete with trash talking, port camping, and roving gank parties. The funny part is, this type of gameplay is what the rest of us seem to be constantly striving towards at break-neck speed. The powerlevelers have set this game into sprint mode when it was meant to be a bit more of a marathon (or at least a decent cross-country race). Nowadays you level solo with boxed characters or you perceive that your leveling is slowed to a crawl. Why do we care so much if we don't get a level or two a day? Has anyone even stopped to ask yourselves why are we trying to level so fast in this game? This isn't a rhetorical question, I really want a personal answer from anyone (other than Splatter ;) ) as to why you think we hit the level mill with such zeal and fervor. Cause I think that the answer to this question may shed alot of light as to where the problem lies. Do we as players feel that we have to level or do we do it because we want to?
Why dont you come on over to the Teon server, there's much pvp to be had, at any level if you fancy! ,o)
Teon will be one day the same, its only question of time, coz 2 EURO vs 8 USA servers now, but there will be more EURO servers opened in future (more servers = more people spread out)
lets hope fortresses, S80 armors + new race will give old and new players something to do for a while :)
Everyone is in a panic to get there because that's where all the excitement is. You are nothing unless you're 75+ in this game...that is just the way it has become. PvP is fruitless because most people are on a sub, an alt or a bot. There are very few "new" people in the game. The lower lvl people have nothing to do but grind, but most people want a little PvP. What is a lvl 52 anything against a group of 76+ out hunting for wartags? The answer...easy prey. Anything below 75 is not useful in any type of war, PvP or sieges. If you participate in sieges and are in a clan that is not full of 75+ then all you have done is jeopordized the lvling for your lower lvl clan mates. So I definately see why everyone is in such a hurry to get to the top.
What NC could do is add to the lower lvl game to help people have more fun at lower lvls. Or make PvP an option ONLY if there is a war unless on a sige field. That would make things more interesting for sure. These suggestions of course are just off the top of my head, but soemthing definately needs to be done to improve the mid-game content.
Everyone is in a panic to get there because that's where all the excitement is. You are nothing unless you're 75+ in this game...that is just the way it has become. PvP is fruitless because most people are on a sub, an alt or a bot. There are very few "new" people in the game. The lower lvl people have nothing to do but grind, but most people want a little PvP. What is a lvl 52 anything against a group of 76+ out hunting for wartags? The answer...easy prey. Anything below 75 is not useful in any type of war, PvP or sieges. If you participate in sieges and are in a clan that is not full of 75+ then all you have done is jeopordized the lvling for your lower lvl clan mates. So I definately see why everyone is in such a hurry to get to the top.
What NC could do is add to the lower lvl game to help people have more fun at lower lvls. Or make PvP an option ONLY if there is a war unless on a sige field. That would make things more interesting for sure. These suggestions of course are just off the top of my head, but soemthing definately needs to be done to improve the mid-game content.
Precisely, the new stigma to the game is that 75+ or bust. But again, that's because the high level people and their lack of restraint has pushed the server into this self destructive corner. With this kind of mindset, the grind becomes painfully tedious work instead of what it should be....a game. If the high level players let go of Gludio, Dion, Innadril, and Schuttgart castles and then we as players decided that these would be sieged only by clans at certain levels, then grinding would only be something you'd do if you wanted to, not because you feel like you had to.
Let's say it worked out like this:
Gludio and Schuttgart would only be sieged by lower level clans with the majority of it's members roughly between the levels of 20-55, Dion, Innadril and Oren would be sieged by clans with members mostly between 56 and 68, Aden, Rune, Goddard, and Giran will be sieged by players that are 69+. With this kind of dynamic in place, There's no reason for anyone to hurry to any level. And here are the benefits of such a change:
- A new player starting out can take advantage of the easier leveling from 1-40 at their own pace and still participate in sieges with comparable players each weekend.
- A low level clan can incur enemies of another low level clan during sieges and start a war. Thus, pvp will flourish at lower levels.
- People could party more and save money on SS since there's no need to run to 75+ for good pvp.
- Lower level lands will stay populated for longer periods of time, thus utilizing more of the L2 environment
- Clans at lower levels can run more raids if people aren't constantly outleveling the raid bosses at a phenomenal rate. This equals more clan coordination skills, strategies, and drops.
- People can fish and manor or sell without feeling like they're making a tradeoff against leveling.
- Less pressure to outlevel the competition will lead to less people seeking to level through innappropriate means.
- Warsmiths and Bountyhunters will be invaluable to clans again.
- You can sit back and appreciate the skills and dedication of the server elite by watching them siege their castles again.
All that would be left is for L2 to make trial periods 30 days long and new people would be instantly hooked. And just imagine how much better this would be once CT-1 dropped if we kept along this line of playing. These are just some of the things that can come about just by the higher clans simply making a choice to allow the land a little breathing space. What do you guys think?
Forgive me if I am wrong, but I still got a feeling that once the "big dominating alliance" turns back, another "bigger powerhungry alliance" grows and take server.
That's just in human nature.
Seriously, all of this can be fixed by a localization change for the servers here.
NC Soft NA is big on "Well, we make localization changes based on what we think our players need."
The thing is, new players start, they get to 40-52 and the grind sets in, they figure out people have spent YEARS getting to 75, and they quit.
There go your new players.
All of those aspects that you mention above could be fixed if they allow people to level faster.
Sure, it is easier now to get to C/B grade if you are a new player. Getting to S grade? Well.... you are going to be hard put to find a new player that starts Lineage 2 in August, 2007 and says, "In 2009 I will be level 75!!!"
Does that not sound insane to you? It does to me. Who in their right mind would want to do that?
The rush to hit high levels has less to do with "joining in the excitement" that it has to do with "having the barest hope to escape the high level grief/gank parties and top-level-turds."
Seriously, all of this can be fixed by a localization change for the servers here.
NC Soft NA is big on "Well, we make localization changes based on what we think our players need."
The thing is, new players start, they get to 40-52 and the grind sets in, they figure out people have spent YEARS getting to 75, and they quit.
There go your new players.
All of those aspects that you mention above could be fixed if they allow people to level faster.
Sure, it is easier now to get to C/B grade if you are a new player. Getting to S grade? Well.... you are going to be hard put to find a new player that starts Lineage 2 in August, 2007 and says, "In 2009 I will be level 75!!!"
Does that not sound insane to you? It does to me. Who in their right mind would want to do that?
If you don't like it, bugger off. I've been back on the forums two days, and all I've seen you do is whine about the grind.
Seriously, all of this can be fixed by a localization change for the servers here.
NC Soft NA is big on "Well, we make localization changes based on what we think our players need."
The thing is, new players start, they get to 40-52 and the grind sets in, they figure out people have spent YEARS getting to 75, and they quit.
There go your new players.
All of those aspects that you mention above could be fixed if they allow people to level faster.
Sure, it is easier now to get to C/B grade if you are a new player. Getting to S grade? Well.... you are going to be hard put to find a new player that starts Lineage 2 in August, 2007 and says, "In 2009 I will be level 75!!!"
Does that not sound insane to you? It does to me. Who in their right mind would want to do that?
If you don't like it, bugger off. I've been back on the forums two days, and all I've seen you do is whine about the grind.
LOL go bugger off yourself buddy.
I've been here since prelude, I can whine all I want. Start pointing out the new players and I'll stop
And then you realise the majority of the people in those level ranges are alts anyway, you realise your plan fails.
Forgive me if I am wrong, but I still got a feeling that once the "big dominating alliance" turns back, another "bigger powerhungry alliance" grows and take server.
That's just in human nature.
The beauty behind the thing is that it doesn't matter if the people in that level range are alts or not, as long as they're within the level range, it's still fair to new players. If a person decides to reroll, that's all well and good.
As far as there being a possibility to create a new force of serverjerks, well that's where the elite players get a chance to shine. Since they would be the key to movement, it would also be plausible that they would be the enforcers of the new rules. Anyone that doesn't play by the rules, and gets a castle by cheating runs the risk of running afoul of the really high level players and getting their castle or fortress taken from them.
And Jethro, like I said earlier, why is it that you want to level so fast to 75+? If a system is in place that allows you to enjoy the game on lower levels, then what's the hurry?
oh man 2 years
right now im new and i like the game so far
and cant wait to start partying and playing with other people
but atm im focused on getting my self ready
but i do like some of the ideas you have
new server anyone, but then again everyone will rush to that one. so ftw, be nice
im new
Hmm.. a few thoughts, in no particular order or necessarily in response to any particular comment previous...
The Grind
The Grind is all there is to L2. Everything else is a distraction from The Grind. There is simply no other way to advance your character. This, by itself, is not such a terrible thing.
However...
The Grind in L2 is boring. It's generally unrewarding. Most classes do not possess skills that require any thought or strategies to use, so The Grind is simply mindless, timed presses of a handful of keys. For myself, as a Swordsinger, I can XP with 3 buttons in a party, 5 soloing.
This is neither interesting, nor fun. Little wonder many automate this task.
Fix: Make combat require thought, strategy and human interaction. Rather than banning bots, simply make the game to difficult to automate. Create combat content, and update the classes in response to that, that prevents Skill A + Skill B + Skill C = WIN. Create combat that follows If Skill A then Mob SkillB, then Skill C unless Mob SkillA, if Mob SkillA= True, then Skill D = WIN. If SkillD does not = True, then result is Lose.
You attack, mob counterattacks, mob uses a skill, you use the appropriate counter-skill, then another skill, Mob counters that skill, etc. Situational, reactive, dynamic content. Require thought to combat, bots cannot function in such an environment.
Rewards...
The nebulous concept of XP is not an award... in fact, its a millstone about your neck in many cases. The acquisition rate is, for the average, abysmal.
Make hunting rewarding. Remove mob-specific drops and make them level specific, with adjusted percentages for the mobs specific level. Top D items, and parts thereof, should drop from mobs level 35-45, with greater chance from level 42-45 mobs... all mobs in this level range.
It should not cost you more in resources to hunt in a given, level-appropriate area, than you bring in. Improve loot tables.
More gear on the market does not destroy the economy, it simply removes elitist, economic snobs. More gear = more enchanting attempts = more crystals. More mats = more gear being made for.... more enchanting attempts. More gear means lower prices, lower prices means more items more available to players. Players happy with gear progression (as important, if not more so, than level) means better word-of-mouth advertising, more to show off.
PVP
L2s only positive claim to fame.
Fix it.
Simple as that. Fix it.
This is not a player-controlled scenario. Blame for the sinfully broken mechanics of this game falls squarely on the shoulders of the Devs who, having seen them in action for nearly 4 years now, obviously couldn't balance two classes if I put a gun to their heads.
Get rid of the RPS system. Provide every class with a range of skills that make them PvP-effective. Victory in PvP, in this new system, depends more on timing, strat, and appropriate use of appropriate skills at appropriate times. Healers should have a chance to kill Archers... every class should, all other things (level, class-appropriate gear, etc) being equal, be given a 50/50 chance to win any 1v1 against any other class. This is where real skill and, yes, luck, comes in.
Player Behaviour...
Ban the buyers. No questions asked. If a toon receives 6 billion adena from "aiuhfsefhioai", whom is clanless, and has never been in a clan... this is an adena transaction. Ban them both, and all accounts linked to the guilty. Follow "aiuhfsefhioai"'s transaction logs on the server, and find the rest of his buyers, and ban them, too.
Levelling faster? It's the rare few players that spend 2+ years getting to level 75+. Really, those are the exception. Most who will see it will see it within six months, the way the game is now. Of course, most of this is done with PLevel parties and through Master Card and Mistress Visa... but such is the game.
If the grind was made more interesting, and more rewarding at every level, it wouldn't matter so much.
Other thoughts...
Turn the Coliseum into an instance, into a real coliseum. Have various PvP-oriented events, based on level-ranges, available at all times. Clan A and Clan B from AllyOne want to have some fun... so they go to Coli and play 70+ King of the Hill. Clan A Academy and Clan B Academy from AllyOne want to have some PvP fun... while big brothers and sisters are fighting for the Hill, they play a 30-40 game of Capture the Flag.
That's just one idea but, in short, give people something to do other than grind. Give them things that are fun to do, not simply a repackaged Grind (like Fishing... Acclaim's Two Moons got Fishing right, even if it fails in many other ways).
i like that last part, should be other games than just "kill everyone else" at the collisium. the olypiad never needed rewards to be popular, all this hero junk and demonic weapons really made the game go sour, i think. but on topic, yes seiges should be available for lower level AND new players. it is silly that sieging is a very central concept of the game, yet its something a new player will never get a chance to do. in fact, that should should be a guideline, when considering changes to allow new players to siege. is it possible to get there in less than the time of a trial account? is it possible to have some chance at a siege, during the first month of play? hopefully fortresses will help this some.
Well, I personally would rather see castles that cater to a certain lvl range than making it easy to lvl.
Otherwise there is no point to lvling and (at least for me) I could be playing Guild Wars instead.
As far as things like the olympiad or the demon sword ruining the game, I would say that it is how they are implemented that is the problem.
The demon swords should turn a player into a raid boss with set hit points and power and make it so that it requires a huge amount of people to take him/her down. However, it should solely be used for pvp and not PvE. At least that is my opinion.
I personally love the idea of the Olympiad but it should be made so that you it's not possible to throw the match. Or if you do throw the match you receive a lot of penalties.
Sorry but I don't feel that there is anything wrong with competition. I also don't feel that there is anything wrong with there being players stronger than others or clans/alliances stronger than others provided that they've earned it.
The issue is that players who are not of higher lvl cannot take part in pvp which is "supposed" to be the selling point of this game.
Changing the game at this point in its run would be too drastic. Sort of akin to what happened to SWG.
What NC needs to do is to pay attention to the details (something they have always been bad at)
i didnt say anything about making it easier to level, nor did i suggest removing the olympiad altogether. with the olympiad, people with boss jewels win, and get blessed enchants, and uber weapons, and rep points. maybe still give them rep points and hero chat, but really, even the glow is stupid (lagging opponent = pvp++). the point im trying to make is, if they can win the olympiad, they are good enough at pvp, that they dont need the extra hero skills, which allow them to get pvp points even easier.
and actually, i think it was you that came up with the idea to make it so that even a level 1 at a siege should have a role, be it running miniquests during the siege or whatnot. it was not a bad idea.
if it is easier to abuse the system than to be legitimate, people will abuse it.
Hence, we have the Olympiad. The system needs to be fixed, not the players, because you can't fix losers.
pretty rash statement - all players are losers. ?? that is just thoughtless and rude to players no matter what their level.
And i take exception to the fact that you think i am a loser because i play this game. I do not WISH to have a higher level clan than i already have (not into politics). I do have a large circle of friends ingame, and we help each other if we can. MY responsibility as a player is to play with the rules as listed within MY morality as i am comfortable with. I CHOOSE to not participate in free-for-all pvp. I certainly CHOOSE to not AMBUSH other players for chaos. I work with diligence to gain those skills and weapons and gear that i can. THAT IS PLAYER RESPONSIBILITY!! how EACH player plays their CHARACTER in this game, their CHOICES. thus, each player's choices grants each player their power to continue to make choices.
(climbs off the top step for the next being to offer their rant.)
i didnt say anything about making it easier to level, nor did i suggest removing the olympiad altogether. with the olympiad, people with boss jewels win, and get blessed enchants, and uber weapons, and rep points. maybe still give them rep points and hero chat, but really, even the glow is stupid (lagging opponent = pvp++). the point im trying to make is, if they can win the olympiad, they are good enough at pvp, that they dont need the extra hero skills, which allow them to get pvp points even easier.
and actually, i think it was you that came up with the idea to make it so that even a level 1 at a siege should have a role, be it running miniquests during the siege or whatnot. it was not a bad idea.
if it is easier to abuse the system than to be legitimate, people will abuse it.
Hence, we have the Olympiad. The system needs to be fixed, not the players, because you can't fix losers.
pretty rash statement - all players are losers. ?? that is just thoughtless and rude to players no matter what their level.
And i take exception to the fact that you think i am a loser because i play this game. I do not WISH to have a higher level clan than i already have (not into politics). I do have a large circle of friends ingame, and we help each other if we can. MY responsibility as a player is to play with the rules as listed within MY morality as i am comfortable with. I CHOOSE to not participate in free-for-all pvp. I certainly CHOOSE to not AMBUSH other players for chaos. I work with diligence to gain those skills and weapons and gear that i can. THAT IS PLAYER RESPONSIBILITY!! how EACH player plays their CHARACTER in this game, their CHOICES. thus, each player's choices grants each player their power to continue to make choices.
(climbs off the top step for the next being to offer their rant.)
With what you quoted, I did not mention all players.
I refer to those players who all join the same clan/alliance because they know that they are big on points trading in the Olympiad. If that's you, and you choose to be part of the group that abuses the system, well then yes, you are a loser.
I'm not entirely sure what you are ranting about, to be honest :)
If you don't understand me, then you should read the first post in this thread by Smookie.
if it is easier to abuse the system than to be legitimate, people will abuse it.
Hence, we have the Olympiad. The system needs to be fixed, not the players, because you can't fix losers.
pretty rash statement - all players are losers. ?? that is just thoughtless and rude to players no matter what their level.
And i take exception to the fact that you think i am a loser because i play this game. I do not WISH to have a higher level clan than i already have (not into politics). I do have a large circle of friends ingame, and we help each other if we can. MY responsibility as a player is to play with the rules as listed within MY morality as i am comfortable with. I CHOOSE to not participate in free-for-all pvp. I certainly CHOOSE to not AMBUSH other players for chaos. I work with diligence to gain those skills and weapons and gear that i can. THAT IS PLAYER RESPONSIBILITY!! how EACH player plays their CHARACTER in this game, their CHOICES. thus, each player's choices grants each player their power to continue to make choices.
(climbs off the top step for the next being to offer their rant.)
With what you quoted, I did not mention all players.
I refer to those players who all join the same clan/alliance because they know that they are big on points trading in the Olympiad. If that's you, and you choose to be part of the group that abuses the system, well then yes, you are a loser.
I'm not entirely sure what you are ranting about, to be honest :)
If you don't understand me, then you should read the first post in this thread by Smookie.
if you want the goodies - work for them. YOUR CHOICE.
if it is easier to abuse the system than to be legitimate, people will abuse it.
Hence, we have the Olympiad. The system needs to be fixed, not the players, because you can't fix losers.
pretty rash statement - all players are losers. ?? that is just thoughtless and rude to players no matter what their level.
And i take exception to the fact that you think i am a loser because i play this game. I do not WISH to have a higher level clan than i already have (not into politics). I do have a large circle of friends ingame, and we help each other if we can. MY responsibility as a player is to play with the rules as listed within MY morality as i am comfortable with. I CHOOSE to not participate in free-for-all pvp. I certainly CHOOSE to not AMBUSH other players for chaos. I work with diligence to gain those skills and weapons and gear that i can. THAT IS PLAYER RESPONSIBILITY!! how EACH player plays their CHARACTER in this game, their CHOICES. thus, each player's choices grants each player their power to continue to make choices.
(climbs off the top step for the next being to offer their rant.)
With what you quoted, I did not mention all players.
I refer to those players who all join the same clan/alliance because they know that they are big on points trading in the Olympiad. If that's you, and you choose to be part of the group that abuses the system, well then yes, you are a loser.
I'm not entirely sure what you are ranting about, to be honest :)
If you don't understand me, then you should read the first post in this thread by Smookie.
if you want the goodies - work for them. YOUR CHOICE.
pretty rash statement - all players are losers. ?? that is just thoughtless and rude to players no matter what their level.
And i take exception to the fact that you think i am a loser because i play this game. I do not WISH to have a higher level clan than i already have (not into politics). I do have a large circle of friends ingame, and we help each other if we can. MY responsibility as a player is to play with the rules as listed within MY morality as i am comfortable with. I CHOOSE to not participate in free-for-all pvp. I certainly CHOOSE to not AMBUSH other players for chaos. I work with diligence to gain those skills and weapons and gear that i can. THAT IS PLAYER RESPONSIBILITY!! how EACH player plays their CHARACTER in this game, their CHOICES. thus, each player's choices grants each player their power to continue to make choices.
Kindrah, I don't think that Jethro was calling you or anyone else that doesn't abuse the system a loser. He was simply saying that he believes that the people that have given the game a huge black eye will continue to do so, simply because they lack the ability to reign in their stupidity. I still however disagree with the "all is lost" mentality because I firmly believe that at the center of every one of these raging blockheads there is a creamy nougat of genuine common sense that can be reasoned with.
What I proposed is not only for the good of the lower clans and newbies it's good for the growth of the game. This in time means more money, more competition, and more recognition for the higher clans. I mean, let's face it, they've pretty much tapped out of everything else. Major clans that have been having wars have called them off due to boredom with killing the same guys over and over again. Major clans have disbanded due to lack of excitement. These guys fail to realize that their own actions are the very heart of their problems.
I don't blame the game design because I can see what the developers were going for. They hoped to create a class based society within the game complete with nobles, heroes, knights and vagabonds. People were meant to know their place within the game. Now this doesn't just mean that people know when to stay down, it also means that people on top were supposed to know when something was "beneath" them. This was supposed to make the Higher levels and heroes something almost regal, but it has since degenerated it into something wildly barbaric and embarrasingly thuggish.
CT-1 could be a giant rebirth for the game. We could have new members joining the land, we could see old friends reemerge, but we need to nip this destructive pattern that has bled over every aspect of this game well before the North American launch. We should all set this as our goal and push forward until we make it a reality. I know we can do it!!
There are people who work for them, unfortunately, there are more who don't. Most people I know that are noble/hero have been playing for years...these people that become hero in 6 months - a year, please, as if you didn't bot or pay to be power lvled. I especially love the ones who BUY the accounts from the people who did the work and got tired of the BS...
Hell, I know one guy who uses walker but doesn't use any shots lol, and he doesn't leave it going 24/7 just so he LOOKS like a normal player. This game really had some amazing potential, it's truly unfortunate that so many people had to cheat and continue to do so.
If NC improves the mid-game content, I bet less people would cheat, because they'd be able to do everything they want at their current lvl. I seriously think that what NC needs to do, is go play a series of other games for a while, at least a month, and take a look at their set up. EX: WoW, there is a reason more people play WoW than lineage, and it has little to do with advertising. The game is so rich with content. It's truly designed for grouping. L2 seems to have been designed for a variety of preferences, solo, duo or group. The problem is that it's hard to do everything in this game. It's a constant uphill battle. Just getting the adena to outfit yourself is far worse than the grind. I know this will get flamed, it's in all the boards nature it seems. Personally, I just don't care anymore. When my acct is up, I'm quitting and going to WoW. Too bad I did the 6 month subscription. So until my acct tells me I can't log in because it's not paid, I'll continue to throw my two-cents in here and hope it actually makes a difference. 3 more accounts and 2 live players with them, gone because it's just too much.
I especially like the in game message "You have been playing for a considerable amount of time, you should consider taking a break" LOL, clearly, this is what L2 really wants me to do...that's why everything in this game takes so long. Want to make money? Prepare to spend hours in an afk shop. No one should have to have their computer going all the time just to advance in a meaningless piece of software that we never should have installed to begin with...unless of course we're 17. I think that's where NC went seriously wrong, they designed the game for people who can spend hours upon hours upon hours at the keyboard. They forgot that a lot of us have kids, jobs and a rl life. I love how poeple say "work for it" LOL. Ok, whatever you say, stress out about a bunch of pixels that just happen to look real cool when they're all together. This game needs an overhaul, it will never happen. Eventually, the remaining few legit players will die off (myself and my bf included as of november).
Tedwerd, I would love to respond to your post, but before I can, i want to know what you mean by "Mid-game" content and exactly what levels do you consider to be within the mid-game range? If anyone else thinks they know what was meant, please chime in...
Mid-game is 41-60ish. You get Noob Protection up to 40 now, and until you're in upper B/early A the average toon can't even attempt most of the content considered "end-game".
Mid-Game I think is really anywhere from 40-75. Up to 40 you need to work on getting your class, at 76 suddenly you're somebody, clans will take you, groups want you, you can raid again. That's a huge gap in between though.
Mid-Game I think is really anywhere from 40-75. Up to 40 you need to work on getting your class, at 76 suddenly you're somebody, clans will take you, groups want you, you can raid again. That's a huge gap in between though.
I know what you mean, but this just doesn't appear to be an issue with the game, as much as it's an issue with the players. Again, all this can be tracked to how we've allowed the game to degenerate from it's original ideals. There is much to do in the mid level range, but sadly everyone is so wrapped up in leveling as fast as they can to reach this supposed "end game content" that they are unable to enjoy it anymore. The raid bosses, castle sieges, seven signs, and pvp are supposed to be enjoyed on all levels. There is, if anything, less to do in game once you reach level 75+ and I feel it's high time that people realized this.
WoW is sometimes seen as more enjoyable simply because there is no added pressure or frustrations when it comes to the playing the game. There is, however, no challenge in WoW as well. I stopped playing it because I found the gameplay to be significantly boring compared to funfest L2 was in the good old days. Unfortunately, L2 is but a pale shadow of what it once was, largely due to a handful of players on each server. It can be a pressure free, enjoyable game once again, if we all worked together to make it a reality. Start sending PM's to every hero in hero chat letting them know that it's time they backed off a bit. Take the time to send a quick letter ingame to the clan leaders of the more oppressive clans on your server, let them know that we want the game to be great again. Let them know how much they've ruined it and tell them what our expectations are in the upcoming release. If you really had any kind of care for this game, believe me, it's worth the time, it's worth the effort, it's worth saving.
So many people cheat now a days I'm not sure the game can be saved. The people I'd be pmming to ask them to let up a bit cheated themselves, they enjoy their pushy ways and their general griefing tactics. Want Baium, that'll be 50 mil please for that res since you just got pked INSIDE Baiums room. I want your room, leave or die (of course there is a full party just waiting to gank you) and the sad thing is, that's them being nice. I love it when you see in Hero chat (from a hero you saw 6 months ago at lvl 20) "I'm off to bed everyone, I have school tomorrow". Lineage is not a hard game per se...it's /target kill, /target kill, it's really not all that involved. It's the people who cheat that ruin it. You can't get things on your own anymore, not unless you spend an unreasonable amount of time buying selling crafting. When I started l2, it was fun. When I made my se I made a good in game friend (who's since quit...what a suprise), we partied in the noob areas just for the sake of company, then we headed to the cats once we hit 20 and finished our transfer quests. I had no problems finding pole parties or any parties for that matter. Now the game is dead. The few noobs that are around usually quit once they see what this game has turned into. I can see the originaly vision, and it sure had potential, but this last year especially I've seen this game go down hill. It's finally become too much and it's killed the fun. Rarely do I log in and actually have fun. I now log in simply because, I paid for it, so I'm gonna use it.
Tedward, great post! I have been playing Lineage II for 4 days now, and in that short time I have taken a stroll through the newbie areas as well as making my way to the high level areas (use newbie token to get to Dwarven Village, run to Rune Township from there, faster than the ferry, lol) and get an idea of the L2 society, which you describe accurately.
It seems the game is only as good as the people who play it, which in this case either means we are massively outnumbered by bots and adena buyers, or the legit players are somehow unable to work together to overcome the cheaters.
Of course, NC is responsible for failing to enforce their own rules as well as structuring the game to accomodate cheating. I am currently playing on a two week trial that came with Guild Wars. I have never encountered any sort of cheat or imbalance on GW, for example, because the game was made to address the setbacks of other online RPGs like L2 (although GW is not MM).
I admire your ambition to get people over to WoW, but as for me, I had already been a devout player and a role-player at that, before the expansion packs came out. I was an infamous level 60 Warlock/Engineer that patrolled the Horde villages hunting down intruders, sort of a one-track minded undead sentinel. WoW was nice because even though there were bots and gold buyers, the game was still surprisingly balanced and there was nothing holding me back. One problem with WoW is that some of the PvP sessions (forget what the snowy place is called where you can eventually summon a giant monster to fight for you... it's been that long) routinely last 9+ hours. There is a great amount of dedication/addiction that is necessary at the higher levels to progress any further. To add to that, WoW is full of drama queens. I found myself banned from particpating in most of the level 60 PvP games because the Horde had friends in the Alliance in RL, who were sore about me killing their Alliance friends whenever they tried to raid a village. In a roleplaying server, I was expected not to roleplay. In addition, Blizzard's GMs were worse than L2's.
So why am I playing L2 when I know it's messed up? Well, I am trying a different approach to the game. Having played online games since Q-Link and the 1200 baud modem, I know that every game eventually becomes an insane struggle for complete dominance. I know there will be kiddies, who don't have to work, glued to the game, or botting, or buying adena, whatever. So my approach is to not make complete dominance my goal, to not try and compare my character with other characters. I work two jobs, but when I come home, I find it theraputic to put on my Bose headphones and log into L2 for an hour or two, grinding or exploring-- the game is gorgeous and so is the music, moreso, in my opinion, than WoW or any other MMORPG I have played. I like to watch the colors of the sky and the HDR effects look fantastic... the environmental sounds are great as well. I have challenged myself to just enjoy something for what it is. No rush to be high level. I guess L2 is the vehicle for my experiment. I don't use potions to keep my character constantly grinding. If he needs rest, I let him sit and go iron clothes or cook dinner, or do something else that constitutes having a life, and then I come back.
I would, however, devote more time if there were more players willing to work together to change things. Maybe if NC were willing to implement a banning option for private stores, we could establish a bot-free, legit trading economy. We would have to communicate and continuously update the list of bot names and cheaters, add them to our banned from private store list, so eventually they would be cut off from all trade resources as well as the adena. Obviously I haven't been playing that long, and I'm just throwing out ideas that may not be viable, but there has to be something the legit players can do to change things.
I'm not really trying to get people to play WoW :) Just want the devs to take a look at other games and why they work. I really hope that your experience with Lineage2 is much better than mine. I loved this game when I started, LOVED it. It's just not the same as it was. I'm pushing for server transfers which doesn't look like it's happening anytime soon. If there was a transfer option, I would try that before quitting. Once you get to a lvl where you'll need gear, it starts to turn sour. So my advice to you is, find an academy in a good clan that is willing to help you. Take advantage of the clan armour, any good clan will provide that for you, see if they have weapons for loan (we have a pair of D duals...the other weapons we stolen lol). Do manring when you can, lvl in the cats if you can as much as possible, that was you can collect seal stones for an extra source of revenue as well as weapon trade-ups. When you are hunting for this clan, make sure they have a crafter who can craft all your shots (should you choose to use them, most people do) and can craft weapons/armour. Save all your mats. Sell all ng recipes to the grocer in town. Anything you don't need, sell. Use resources like [censored] to help you price items or to find out what items you have that are of value. Take a look on stratics for quest pertaining to your lvl, look at the rewards, there are very few worth doing btw. If your reward is like 15k, it's not worth it, the market is insane in this game. Take advantage of newbie buffs when you can. (Next chronicle these will be available in all towns via the adventure guildsman". Finally, make sure this clan you look for has people who are willing to help. Maybe put a post on your servers board? But I wish you the best of luck, and hope you don't go sour as I did.
naa, i think i read into one of your sentences a bit too much.
I know what you mean, but this just doesn't appear to be an issue with the game, as much as it's an issue with the players. Again, all this can be tracked to how we've allowed the game to degenerate from it's original ideals. There is much to do in the mid level range, but sadly everyone is so wrapped up in leveling as fast as they can to reach this supposed "end game content" that they are unable to enjoy it anymore. The raid bosses, castle sieges, seven signs, and pvp are supposed to be enjoyed on all levels. There is, if anything, less to do in game once you reach level 75+ and I feel it's high time that people realized this.
It can be a pressure free, enjoyable game once again, if we all worked together to make it a reality. Start sending PM's to every hero in hero chat letting them know that it's time they backed off a bit. Take the time to send a quick letter ingame to the clan leaders of the more oppressive clans on your server, let them know that we want the game to be great again. Let them know how much they've ruined it and tell them what our expectations are in the upcoming release. If you really had any kind of care for this game, believe me, it's worth the time, it's worth the effort, it's worth saving.
I appreciate your ambition in these matters, although I am a new player. Do you have any sample letters or messages you could post as an example? And maybe some of the replies you have received? I think that would be motivating, and I want to have an idea of what you would say to these people.
I get the idea that being oppressive and dominating the game is what they want. It's why they do what they do. What about the rest of us? Do you think the dictatorship depends on us for anything, and if so, is there a way we could collaborate to take that away from them in order to get what we want?
Or, would you say the more hilarious possibility is true: That if the lower level players were to all disappear, and it was just the heros and oppressive clans, they would just keep playing on their own and enjoy it?
I play on Erica, and what people are saying about the absence of lower level players is true... everywhere I grind up to level 20 has been vacant except for me and the monsters... lol. Most of the players are higher level... there is hardly ever anyone on from the Academy level of my guild.
tedwerd if you could transfer servers, what server would you transfer to? there is only one problem with L2, one bug in the system. and that problem exists on Every server, because some players, no matter what game they play or what server they are on, bring that problem with them.
Finally, make sure this clan you look for has people who are willing to help. Maybe put a post on your servers board? But I wish you the best of luck, and hope you don't go sour as I did.
I got picked up by a clan at level 3 or so, when I bowed to a higher level player and started a conversation, and I think it's fairly nice because they are a level 5 clan and I am in their Academy. Your tips are both concise and helpful, since I didn't know about many of the things you mentioned (have you written a guide yet?). My main is sitting on level 19 because I don't want to waste my newbie travel tokens. I thought I could use them to travel for trade opportunities, but then I remembered I can't trade in trial mode. So, I made a dagger wielding fighter and got him up to level 8 (as to not lose exp in death after level 9) and have been using him to explore different areas, see where the most trade activity is, etc.
Normally I think I would have gone sour by now, but remember my approach to the game is different than it has been before. I am going to let my character grow over time, enjoy the aesthetics of the game, and if other characters are dominating the adena and gear and property through "thuggish" means, then what have they really accomplished? Sure, they have power, but it's the way they wield that power that determines how great they are. A ***** on a throne with a crown is still just a ***** with a crown. I'd rather be an inspirational noob with running around with an apprentice weapon, having fun regardless.
Haha no guides :P But your clan will likely be able to help you out with various money making tips :) I think actually there is an informal guide to making money in l2 under the "player guides" section of this board.
Some of the advice is not so great, like following around a high lvl nuker and stealing his loot, that is just bad taste, but there are some other ideas in there that are not so bad. (I skimmed through it )
Nepheus, I didn't have a letter prepared, but here's a decent template to start with. Please let me know what you feel should be changed. We can send this to the members of the top clans and their leaders on each server that have over dominated castle sieges in areas that they've clearly outleveled.
Dear _______:
The players of <insert server name here> would like to congratulate you on your many successes you've had while playing L2. You and your clan have shown both ambition and determination during your rise to greatness and the accomplishments you've made should be commended. You and your peers were among the first to stand in Antharus's Lair, you've wrestled with Baium, and you've captured the title of Hero on many occasions. You've bested many in-game challenges, but we would like to challenge you to further the ideal of elitism you've constantly strived for by showing that you have not only the strength of a leader, but the wisdom of one as well.
Lineage 2 is not the game it once was. The newbie areas are empty, marketplace sales are down, hardly anyone parties anymore, people that have been playing for years are throwing in the towel. For all it's good points, the game is drying up due a perceived lack of goals and opportunity at lower levels. We believe that it is within your power to change all of this and restore this game to greatness.
All we ask is that you voluntarily no longer compete in the sieges of Dion, Gludio, Innadril, and Schuttgart castles along with the fortresses in low level territories, as you've outgrown the useful for such areas anyway. This will allow lower level clans the opportunity to compete on a more level playing field and will draw more new players to the game. You will also benefit because when you and other high level players are all fighting for Aden, Rune, Goddard, and Giran, as you'll have more more challenging sieges and even more bragging rights.
The future of Lineage 2 and how this game progresses in the North American market rests within your hands. We do appreciate your consideration in this matter, and hope that you will honor the game, the players, and ultimately yourselves by choosing to grant us this small request.
I'm a level 40 Tyrant and it took me 3 1/2 - 4 years to reach this goal. :D
Yeah, people laugh at Splatter, but he's a shining example of how much you should really care about leveling...
Da Smookster...
Though Splatter should be extolled for playing the game "his way" (as well as anyone who seeks to play the game in a manner that seems "outside the box") I feel that you are saying that because you don't value one type of gameplay (leveling as quickly - and legitly - as humanly possible) everyone should not value it.
This is a game based on power. It's imbued within the basic structure and philosophy of the game. I don't feel (like others) that it is executed as well as it should be but that is the game we are playing.
That's also like saying that even though someone can afford 2 houses they shouldn't have 2 houses. My feeling is, if that is what you like and you feel you want it, AND you came across the means to afford the 2 houses in a legit way, that should be able to get those houses.
Or 5 cars, or the best computer, or expensive suits, expensive food, etc.
I just can't get on board with that. I can agree that all lvls of the game should have compelling gameplay (I feel that they have trivialized the 1-20 experience that it borders on "criminal") but I don't feel that if a player plays the game well and wants to attain power then they should have to "hold back".
Beause all you are saying is that playing the game the way it was designed is wrong. It might be "wrong' for certain players but it is a game of power.
And yes, people shouldn't cheat and bot but if a person wants to play 12 hours per day (ouch) then that should be his/her (probably not a "her", they seem to have more sense) then they should not be chastized for it.
"Choice" swings both ways. The choice to play the game in a more leisurely manner and the choice to go "all out".
I'll even draw another example. It's like a smaller player joining a football team and most of the kids are huge. But the smaller player's genes dictate that he really is better suited for another sport.
So instead of having him play something else you just ask the other boys to "go easy". Might work with small neighborhood matches but not in competitive high school matches.
Less QQ more pew pew. look, the only thing your right about is farmers reselling AQ/zaken/orfen/core. something needs to be done about AQ/zaken, these farmers have those on lockdown, then they resell for 600mil. i dont know why ncsoft tolerates these boss farmers. its open and its blatant.
accounts shouldve been limited to 12hrs in 24hrs a long time ago. would be less incentive for ppl to bot/share then. in wow, they do this in china (cos its the law)
btw noob areas are empty because its easier than ever to lvl up to 15-20 and leave said noob area, and L2 has fewer newbs than ever (its 3+ years old guys). wow noob areas are dead, does that mean wow is dead?
Wow! Looks fantastic and is eloquent and tactful. That helped me understand our situation better. Sounds like the highest level players are fighting in battles that aren't even challenging for them. When I find out who the people are I need to mail in Erica, I will do it.
It also sounds like we could make a website devoted to this cause-- something to inform players of the situation so they might be more convinced to work towards a better L2, starting with the letters. If the letters don't work, maybe we could amass enough players working together to take over the lower level areas by force. If there is a way to advertise a site while sitting in the game, people who run by might look at it? I don't know. We could call it something big... some kind of movement that will change L2 history forever! *Imagines fields overrun with newbies charging at the enemy kind of like the end of 300*
I just can't get on board with that. I can agree that all lvls of the game should have compelling gameplay (I feel that they have trivialized the 1-20 experience that it borders on "criminal") but I don't feel that if a player plays the game well and wants to attain power then they should have to "hold back".
Beause all you are saying is that playing the game the way it was designed is wrong. It might be "wrong' for certain players but it is a game of power.
"Choice" swings both ways. The choice to play the game in a more leisurely manner and the choice to go "all out".
I understand where you're coming from and therefore I feel the need to clarify what I meant. Alot of people get hung up on the "need" to level. It's this perception that causes many people to believe that L2 is just a hideous grind. For the people that want to excel by playing the long hours to reach the top shelf, these are rarely the people that complain. Usually, they think the game design is perfect the way it is. I was making the statement that "people shouldn't care about leveling" to let people know that the grind isn't all this game is about. I tend to think that the less you care about getting that next level to compete, it feels more like you're playing a game...not working it.
btw noob areas are empty because its easier than ever to lvl up to 15-20 and leave said noob area, and L2 has fewer newbs than ever (its 3+ years old guys). wow noob areas are dead, does that mean wow is dead?
Granted, but if new people are constantly joining L2 and getting through levels 1-20 very quickly, there should be a very high influx of people in the gludio / dion areas. As it stands, all the people we've gotten into our academy over the past few months all had "mains" in other clans. So you tell me, what do you perceive the state of the servers to be at the moment?
I'm a level 40 Tyrant and it took me 3 1/2 - 4 years to reach this goal. :D
Yeah, people laugh at Splatter, but he's a shining example of how much you should really care about leveling...
Da Smookster...
Though Splatter should be extolled for playing the game "his way" (as well as anyone who seeks to play the game in a manner that seems "outside the box") I feel that you are saying that because you don't value one type of gameplay (leveling as quickly - and legitly - as humanly possible) everyone should not value it.
This is a game based on power. It's imbued within the basic structure and philosophy of the game. I don't feel (like others) that it is executed as well as it should be but that is the game we are playing.
That's also like saying that even though someone can afford 2 houses they shouldn't have 2 houses. My feeling is, if that is what you like and you feel you want it, AND you came across the means to afford the 2 houses in a legit way, that should be able to get those houses.
Or 5 cars, or the best computer, or expensive suits, expensive food, etc.
I just can't get on board with that. I can agree that all lvls of the game should have compelling gameplay (I feel that they have trivialized the 1-20 experience that it borders on "criminal") but I don't feel that if a player plays the game well and wants to attain power then they should have to "hold back".
Beause all you are saying is that playing the game the way it was designed is wrong. It might be "wrong' for certain players but it is a game of power.
And yes, people shouldn't cheat and bot but if a person wants to play 12 hours per day (ouch) then that should be his/her (probably not a "her", they seem to have more sense) then they should not be chastized for it.
"Choice" swings both ways. The choice to play the game in a more leisurely manner and the choice to go "all out".
I'll even draw another example. It's like a smaller player joining a football team and most of the kids are huge. But the smaller player's genes dictate that he really is better suited for another sport.
So instead of having him play something else you just ask the other boys to "go easy". Might work with small neighborhood matches but not in competitive high school matches.
Another way to look at it is to note that Smookster emphasized "caring" about levelling, not specifically that one shouldn't gain levels quickly. If you read Smookster's sample letter previously in this thread, you will see that he even compliments the influential players on their ambition. I'd bet even Splatter doesn't mind gaining levels. Perhaps it is the motivation, not the behavior, that is in question here. It comes back to the issue we have talked about in this thread of not only gaining power, but attempting to dominate the game entirely to the point where it becomes ridiculous. Games originated as a way to have fun and enjoy a challenge at the same time. At a certain point, when a player cares so much about dominating the game, the contributions that the player makes to the game become questionable. Ok, I'm gonna sit at a high level where I'm pretty much invincible and do my guaranteed grind for 12 hours every day, making sure I maintain a chokehold on all available properties and my clan has all the number one rankings. Over and over. It doesn't sound very fun or challenging anymore. That is why in older forms of games that were designed purely for fun, like monopoly, the game ends when a monopoly is developed and a new game starts so the FUN can continue. If you had to just keep rolling and going around the board being unable to acquire any new property or do anything NEW, I doubt the game would be very entertaining.
Maybe if the fanatic high level players that dominate everything cared a little bit less (they remind me of the study of child development, which observed that infants attempt to gain a sense of power and control by trying to engulf objects in their mouth, kind of like these fanatics trying to engulf the entire server in their mouth), some new opportunities would open up in the game, like mid-level players gaining some territory (as was suggested earlier), and something new would happen in the game. If we are all required to devote 12 hours a day to the game and obsess over it just to compete, it is no longer a game... it's our whole life.
There is going to be some disagreement about what people should or shouldn't be chastized for, but it seems somewhat clear that even NC asks players to take a break after every hour of play, and I would say that there can be an unhealthy level of caring about the game that we shouldn't be afraid to comment on. L2 can draw people into subscribing with the beauty of the game experience itself, but along with the ambience of the game is the fact that NC designed it to keep making money for them... we are stuck in a battle between people who want to have fun playing L2 and people who supplement living with playing L2. Since NC does nothing about it, it is up to players...
I like the idea of only being allowed to be logged in for a max of 12 hours in any 24 hour period.
I second that, or third, to be correct. If they set a max of 12 hours, they should also drop the subscription price since it would no longer be unlimited play.
Look, I am obsessed with levelling my forum avatar! I must post and post until I level up past Elpy! OMG! I vow not to change my underwear until I am all powerful!
the study of child development, which observed that infants attempt to gain a sense of power and control by trying to engulf objects in their mouth
I learned something today :D
Yay! Isn't it weird that we were once babies too, with no sense of identity? We gain our sense of self by having our parents mirror our actions, kind of like confirming that we exist and have an influence, which is part of why babies love being imitated so much.
wow noob areas are dead, does that mean wow is dead?
offtopic, but it depends on what server you are looking at. Some are bustling, but endgame is dull, while others are empty and most players are towards endgame. Newbie areas aren't dead on my server, atleast. Everytime I go there, I see a healthy population of new players roaming around and conversating with each other; where they came from is probably because of word of mouth and the thousands of trail account keys. On the flipside, you will see a large population of 70s everywhere you go.
When I first started (towards the end of C2 to around end of C3), I got to interact with many lowbie players 20 and under, and the older players sometimes came to DE village to help us out. The sense of community among players I felt when I first started really helped with the boring grind. When I came back in C4, the change of how things once were to how things are now really shocked me, so I left. It's a shame the newbie area in L2 are now ghost towns, and almost everything is done for the self, greed, and e-fame. To be honest, how a game gains popularity is in the hands of the company & the players, and unfortunately, a wonderful game like Lineage II is in a double jeopardy.
See the thing you are over looking is the manor. If castles change hands all the time, the manor is broken, and people make LESS money, and have LESS incentive to stay in the game because they can compete with the high level people LESS. Castles staying with a single owner for a long time makes the game MORE fun overall.
I disagree...
The manor system isn't a highly complex piece of equipment that can only be handled by someone that over plays the game. Our clan just got Dion and Innadril castles and we pretty much set the manor up exactly like it was before we took over. No one suffers, no problems are had. Anyone that wants to take over a castle should always check to see what the previous owners had set for manoring before they siege. That way, they have a good idea of how they want to set it up. I really don't see where there's a problem.
Da Smookster...
When I looked at the Heine and Dion manors last night they were completly messed up.
Was fine with me...because it meant more seeds turned into my castles :p
But anyway - I don't mind low level clans holding castles in those areas because they are a pain to me. I only would take those if they were in my enemies hand or QHP's were leaking to my enemies from them.
I was kinda upset though how you just took it without asking after we helped you at Heine, lol. I would've said yes if you did ask........
I was even more upset about our enemies being on your lawn helping you.......
When I looked at the Heine and Dion manors last night they were completly messed up.
Was fine with me...because it meant more seeds turned into my castles :p
But anyway - I don't mind low level clans holding castles in those areas because they are a pain to me. I only would take those if they were in my enemies hand or QHP's were leaking to my enemies from them.
I was kinda upset though how you just took it without asking after we helped you at Heine, lol. I would've said yes if you did ask........
I was even more upset about our enemies being on your lawn helping you.......
Well, about the manors....we're experimenting a bit. Trying to completely learn the process and take our personal understanding a bit farther than just imitation. But every clan, including yours, had to deal with the learning curve when it came to setting up the manor. You guys figured it out, we will figure it out, any new clan that takes over the castles from us will figure it out. The game will continue on...and the world keeps on spinnin'.
As far as 1 guy from your rival clans being on our front lawn during the siege time, well.....it was a siege. But I will say that Airb0rne used to be a member of our clan before he joined your rivals and his younger brother is still a member. So he was just stopping by to help out his brother during the last 10 minutes. But just so you don't think we are soliciting help from your enemies clans to take over a castle, we also very recently had Bloodstalker's cousin in our clan and even got warred by Tribunal because we refused to kick him out of our clan when Tribunal demanded it. So we're a very neutral clan that really doesn't want to be affiliated with any of the high level guys (as allies or supporters) at the moment. We do have personal friends on each side though, and have no qualms about raiding or partying with any of you.
I am glad that you saw my post, however, and I'm even more thrilled to hear that you agree that you've outleveled the castles in these areas. ICA has been a long time superpower on Sieghardt and I hope that you will share some of what you've read here with the rest of your crew. It is my hope that your rivals on Sieghardt, and members of the superpowered clans on other servers also take the time to form an opinion about the ideas expressed in this thread. We'd all love to hear back from you.
I disagree Lothlian. That would be like saying there are no neutral countries who own land.
The manner in which castle or land was acquired does, in fact, play a role in the neutrality of the owner.
Once upon a time, NH listed itself as neutral, took a castle from NPCs and defended against all attackers. they were neutral and were castle owners.
Smookster's clan was in... a similar situation. The castles in question were abandoned by the larger clans because they weren't worth the manpower to take and/or defend. His clan is long known as being neutral and while some sore players may try to make the case that their castle ownership nullifies it, it would be a lost propaganda campaign.
The angered and sore could certainly grief Smook's clan. It's a daily occurrance on most servers anyway, but that and the defense of their castle and/or clanmates does not change their neutrality.
To be honest i read all replays and i think most fail to see the root couse to why kids and ebayers are at the top, normaly they would have moved on or lost since they dont understand what mmorpg is truly about. The basics is Nc not defending thiere creation, they let botters abuse and turn it into a ugly thing. NC should fight for it and not be concerned about financial loss. Those who think NC is doing thire best is truly naiv, Nc runs statistic over time and would not ban the majority of bots whitout an somewhat accurate prediction of the outcome. Nc is run by economics who dosent really understand this game sicne they took the wrong path. Instead of doing the right thing, the only thing that could have saved/save this game they are to greedy/chicken and afraid of the short term loss they might suffer if they ban bots. Its ovius that nc is fighting for two sides thinking they can make the majority of players happy . There are 3 major factors.
Adena farmers for IRL cash= Less than 20-30% of totall account i would say but still allot of money
Ebayers= not counting those who ebayed once or twice "only" i would say about 50-70% of the server (MAIN REASON WHY THERE IS adena farmers) including "teh leets"
Legit players= 5-15% people who might have ebayed when things turned sour, i can not blame these. But people who would still prefer a game whitout adena farmers and who would fight for it.
This is how it looks at my server, can easily tell by levling to 75+, by visiting most levling spots its esay to tell who is adena farmer or not, and amount of ebayers can be judged by the insane amount of adena farmed every day. A minority buying all this adena would meen that we got allot of rich people playing this game :P I got a frinde who used to work with me, mainly in design, he offerd me help with some artworkfor clan website, later he showed me a example that he allredy made, i asked how he got it. He told me that his frind owned a adena farming company and that he had done it for him. So i asked about his frinde. This frinde was buying his second car out of the money he made selling vir gold. and this is only 1 out of many adena selling websites...
NC got better numbers on this. they know who the botters are and who the ebayers are, or they could finde out easily. They could ban most whitin 1-4weeks if they wanted. But its all about $$. Investors want thiere cut and ovisly they are worried about the thoe who ebay, what will happend when price of adena for irl $ goes 10 time higher whit the risk of being banned if buying? what will happend when you cant buy adena for irl money? How many would quitt? i think nc are not ready to finde out. If this game turned legit its a fact that bots would be replaced with new/old players joining us but i think that NC is unsure what the CURRENT PLAYERS want. Since they ebay on large scale nc think they wants adena for $$ and leav adena farmers alone, basicly nc is giving ebayers what they want, adena at low price. Would most ppl stay around if there was no adena for $? thats the million dollar question.
I am 100% sure that if they had put effort into keeping this game legit we would have a really nice comunity with maby the most loyal fanbase playign untill la3 :) Even if they had banned bots a year ago it would have made a noticble diffrent. I think nc regrets not taking action sooner since allot of players quitted latly, or they are fooling themself thinking players left for diffrent reason. Maby they will do something soon, can only pray. Combining the no tolerance of cheating /botting policy with a new server i think allot of players would come back, giving this game what it really needs, would fit nicely with CT1 release. I dont think ebayers should be punished, they did what everyone els did, what was bessesery to not be left behind, still they are respsonsible for ruining it for legit players, if a majority of subscribers wasent recordeed ebayers DEMANDING change nc might have acted diffrently. Ebayers whining for a change wont make much off diffrence... Its a game by nc for us, nc do not care about the individual to much, but the mass is important:.Can only hope Nc do something, players can only do so much if anything, repair the sinking ship befor there is nothing left to save... Sorry for long post. :(
not that any of this has to do with the post at hand...just a couple counterthoughts. you say that if they ban ebayers, the price of adena will go up? i think it would go down, as people take a step back and notice that their actions may have consequences. when the price drops low enouhg, people realise that 100million is really an insignificant amout of RL cash. when its something everyone can afford (like 1 penny per million adena) players will realise the truth about it. ebay is and has always been, a choice. by banning the people that chose it, NCNA is not preventing people from making that choice, they are simply making it more risky. the million dollar question is not how many would quit, they already know. the question is not even "after the ebayers quit, will they be replaced by other players". the answer was, and is, yes. the real question i think, is will the new players stick around. and thats really up to the current players to decide...a sandbox is only fun to play in, until someone defecates in it. i think your percentages are off too. ill agree with you, some 50-70% of the playerbase are routine ebayers. but i also think some 70% of the playerbase doesnt want RMT and bots ruining their game. see, theres an overlap, a portion of the population that doesnt want bots to grow, but they feed them anyways.
on-topic: agreed, castle sieges in lower-level areas should be left to lower-level clans, and by lower-level clans i mean clans that include a lot of lower-level characters. might be a bit idealistic, but i agree with the OP in thinking this can be done without a change from the game developers.
I think that its relevant to to topic since its the ebay problem that let these people become so powerfull, if we could not ebay or bot i think legit players would be running most servers. People that might know what a mmorpg is suposed to be about. I said that if they ban the suppliers, adena farmers price for adena for irl money would go up BIG times.
Both of you are right. It depends on the economic decisions made by a) the farmers and b) the players.
If the players are willing to take the risk then they will. If the farmers are starved of business so much that they get desperate they yes they will lower their prices down alot to encourage people to buy from them more frequently, and in bigger packages. The system you propose can be easily circumvented by farmers telling people to set up sell shots for a certain price and the farmer just buying the 1 silver arrow from the person to transfer the adena to them. No system is fool proof, no system at all.
Too bad everything in Lineage II is tradeable. That is a huge part of the ebay problem and had it not been this way there would only be a fraction of the bots the game has now. Hopefully they learn from their mistake in Lineage 3. If I hear everything is droppable/tradeable in LIneaeg III on the level of Lineage II I wont' even bother going to the website.
It's an open invitation to farmers, and a business opportunity for entreprenuers.
EDIT: Sorry for the confusion I'm Trensharo - on other computer cause I'm watching people feed each other in Olympiad...
Seems like my english is to bad :( I was talking abut a ban of any and all adean selling companies. Than there would be really low supplie for Adena for irl, basicly only players would be selling adena for $ since botters would be banned aswell. This would make Adena allot more excepsnive and allot of stuff would go off the market, stuff that botters allredy have so that part would equal but the increase of players would creat a larger demand. Adena selling companies would have to go back to old style, with live players farming for them and even than they could get banned since massive adena being sold can easily be discovered.
Account 1-20 Farming accounts
Account 21 selling acount
acount x/y/z buyers account
So , account 1-20 farms 24/7 just so account 21 can buy 1 silver arrow for 500 mil each from account x/y/z? Good bizz , aight? ;O
I dont think nc is stupid enugh to fall for that one :P
But what if someone owes me adena and I have to go out for the weekend/to sleep at night so i put up a sell shop with an arrow for 80m so they can give me my cash without me at the computer?
Should I be banned?
Too many bad things can happen, and yes that's quite an acceptable way to get what someone owes you. I do it with friends all the time (cause my playtimes are semi-US, semi-Euro).
If you keep doing so many times and the money came from surces that keep feeding you with cash, than it can safly be asumed that you are a farmer. Its not like adena farmers level up new chars to replace exsisting ones, If there is a connection between these chars and sucpisios trasnfer it only need to be monitored for a little time. You are talking about rare occasions.
...and silver arrows, weigh the same as a duck! and ducks weigh the same as witches and witches live in castles, and thats what this thread is about, letting the new players, and the old low-level players have some fun by sieging. contrarywise, heroes do not weigh the same as a duck, so they should not be playing with the silver arrows. logical? of course not. possible? absolutely.
Too much risk in this. I see where you are coming from, but there is just too much risk involved IRT legit players being banned.
And I'm sorry, but there are few game companies that have the resources to devote to banning the amount of bots, farmers, and ebayers that exist in Lineage II. The root of the problem is the way the game was designed - so the farmers and bots will ALWAYS run rampant. The risk of getting a farmer account banned is worth the amount of cash they make farming on it due to the worth of the adena (worth more than some RL currencies - sad but true). If NCSoft was to ban all the botters and ebayers on the NA servers they would have close to no playerbase left. Mind as well wipe them all again and start from scratch with new server (maybe they'd crash less then).
Leveling in Lineage II is trivial to the point that a hardcore player can legitly play a toon from 1 to noblesse in 6 months (less if powerleveled by friends in pole/nuker/archer grups *ATM*). The risk of getting an account banned is therefore also worth it to many people, especially if they are smart about it (xfer the gear/adena/items to a clean account before you log off or before Tuesday update dates).
If you think farmers keep all their adena/items/mats on one account, think again. Those are businessmen, they think like business men. They are just as intelligent as the developers at NCSoft in many/most cases. It would suprise me if farmers have more than 4-5% of their items/adena on just a few accounts.
Also, NCSoft would have to crack down on Farmer Clans/Alliances and Powerlevelers. Those accounts are often played live. How can you ban a clan for farming raid bosses if they are selling it for adena and using unknown acounts to sell the adena? How can you ban an account utilizing a powerleveling service if the powerleveler is always at the keyboard.
There's an SH that has been getting Powerleveled in Valley of Saints for the past few months and after numerous petitions she is still there. I have screenshots of people TELLING me they bot that I've sent to NCSoft and they are still botting, leveling, seigeing, etc. I guess they are busy looking around for the "gfjdgfd" toons that players flood the petition queues with and cannot get the cheaters that need to be banned imminently. Killing bot trains does absolutely nothing for the botting problem (as the farmers have already made more than they spent on the account). There are loopholes around everything and in the end the cheaters almost ALWAYS win and the legit playerbase almost always suffers for it.
Okay, I really didn't want this thread to degenerate into an ebayer/farmer/botter bashing affair. From my perspective, all those negative aspects of the game are just side effects of an even more negative stigma associated with what is and what isn't necessary to enjoy the game. In any system that's dependent on the interaction of different personalities, there will always be a certain amount of corruption and amorality. It's almost necessary so that you can have a definitive description of what's considered "good" or "bad" within that system. Your biggest responsibility is then to decide what you will personally deal with or what you will altogether avoid.
I personally have no issues with anyone who takes shortcuts to endgame or gear as long as they commit to that decision and play only on the level they've so desperately needed to achieve. From my experience on the PTS, a group of level 75 characters fighting each other is the exact equivalent of a group of level 40 or level 20 players doing the same thing. You really gain nothing from the quick level unless your mindset is to crush people that are waaay to low for you to be concerned with anyway. A person like that isn't interested in competition, they only desire an unfair fight. Now if you say that this is exactly what people that take shortcuts are doing, then now you realize what this thread was about from the beginning :p.
Hello to the world of L2 ... Long time sense my last post.RedStealthOf MidNightExpress
AS many of you have been reading From my Co leader Smookie. We have taken control of two castles, Wasn't my intention to do so but it happened. All actions done by any outsider were on the own. Far as Inaddril goes I walked in doors smashed down no one there "Seal of ruler" Sat on the out side wall waiting.
AS far Dion goes I usually siege Once month. Just to get few clanys used to how the goelm/hog works ..
AS I tell the Clany's, all they care about is farming the "Repoints" by using Alt clans in fear of loosing all those points.If my coment are to straight forward sorry i dont beat around the bush.
AS far as I go, I don't feel I need to ask any one if I can siege. Its part of the game. And risk i put my clanys
But hey its a game and I finally got to experience Owning a castle not easy by no means.
With no Directions or explanation on how the manor works I think doing rather well. I give all the enchants to clany's once I covered the cost of running it. Others items I keep to myself to sale return profit to w/h/Owning a castle is Huge deal.. As far as it goes I'll be waiting for the zerg to come kill all of us under 72 players, which is all but me Redstealth.
I look forward to any clan of my size to come siege next sat. To experience what it must been like in it heydays.
Smookie is my Public affairs rep on most things outside the clan I trust his judgment on the server and who's doing what and by who is sating it. He's been playing the game longer than I have.
Any questions for me send me an E-mail to one of the names below. I will most likely be on one of them.
Well that's all for me The clan leader of MidNIghtExpress
71 Palidain,72 WarSmith, 62 Prophet (semi retired nerf sleep) many other chars
I walked in doors smashed down no one there "Seal of ruler"
I did that at Gludio on Lionna a few weeks back. We did a rush, got pushed back. I found myself standing alone in the courtyard with no enemy OR allies, walked in and crested.
Since then I've not been able to step foot on a siege field without suffering instant multi-archer party related deaths. 21 A-grade archers all aiming at an SE? Instant pain.
If a game dont work properly from your point of view, most of the time if not the player's fault, it is developer's fault. They could create some restrictions for sieges, stop the botting.... so, making the game more playable for everybody who is paying a monthly fee. Check around other games, how its developers take really care of them.
Anyway, Lineage II is a different game from others, where players dominate and make the world decitions, eh ?
its not the developers job at all. the deleopers designed L2 to be a lawless (some might even call it "chaotic") game of knowledge and brute force. knowledge (like knowing how to set up the manor system properly) is power, with power comes responsibility (like giving newbie clans some pointers to set up their manor).
I applaud your sentiment, but honestly......... you're asking the people that make real money from game money to stop. It aint just the b0ts you can see, its the top clans. The castles that they own with 2-3 players in an alt clan, the raid-boss farming. It's not all for in-game fame.
I applaud your sentiment, but honestly......... you're asking the people that make real money from game money to stop. It aint just the b0ts you can see, its the top clans. The castles that they own with 2-3 players in an alt clan, the raid-boss farming. It's not all for in-game fame.
So you think that high level clans are taking the money they get from owning a castle and selling it for rl money? I don't mean to sound naive, but I just can't imagine anyone doing that with lower level castles because not that many people shop there enough to make them profittable. If it wasn't for the manor, low level towns wouldn't make hardly any money from sales because of the lack of populations in these areas. But I dont know, if you guys feel otherwise, please explain.
Do you really, REALLY think that this will happen?
I mean seriously? I hate to always be the person who ya know, says what really goes on in l2 but the high level clans on lionna t least dont give a flying [censored] what lvl castle it is.
Castles = MOney
Money = Gear
Gear = better damage
Better damager = more pvp wins
More pvp wins = more castles
More castles = more money
etc...etc...etc...
Want to get a chance to do something in this game? Level up. Sorry, but welcome to Lineage2.
Do you really, REALLY think that this will happen?
I mean seriously? I hate to always be the person who ya know, says what really goes on in l2 but the high level clans on lionna t least dont give a flying [censored] what lvl castle it is.
Castles = MOney
Money = Gear
Gear = better damage
Better damager = more pvp wins
More pvp wins = more castles
More castles = more money
etc...etc...etc...
Want to get a chance to do something in this game? Level up. Sorry, but welcome to Lineage2.
Love,
Rikku
Yes I do think it will happen and here's why....
The high level guys that play this game and dominate castles all love PvP and sieges. The people that don't, usually don't take castles. And while it's true that more money equals better gear and etc., having pimp-hard gear with no one to fight equals a serious amount boredom. You can kill the same people over and over again only so many times before it's just not exciting anymore. So what I'm proposing will add new blood to the field in high level competition or at the very least, have more people contending over the same piece of real estate.
Also, if everyone agrees to only siege the castle within a certain level range something like what I specified before (Gludio and Schuttgart lvl 20-55, Dion and Innadril lvl 56-68, Aden, Rune, Goddard, and Giran lvl 69+), then high level players can also have alts in those range levels siege other castles and fill up the battlefield during sieges. The whole idea of epic battles and comaraderie is what brought alot of people to L2 in the first place. Nowadays, the idea of an epic battle is about 20 to 40 people max on a siege field at any given time. A pale shadow from the days of old when there were so many people running around a castle you rarely even knew which one was hitting you.
And I don't blame you for your "level up" attitude. It's all a part of what has been forced to become the L2 standard due to bad leadership skills and an overwhelming lack of foresight on the part of those that currently hold the top positions.
Most lower castles have active manors (if the owners know how to set them up), that's where the money comes from, not from the taxes if you're not, say, Giran or Aden.
Been two weeks. Two manors you took are still broke as hell.
Well, the castles really aren't our problem anymore since we gave up one and lost the other this past weekend. I've been meaning to ask you, though. Exactly what made you think the manors were broken? We took in alot of fruit, made alot of things to sell, and learned a whole heck of a lot. For a first time around, I think we did great!
BTW, thanks to mostly all the big clans on Sieghardt that allowed us the benefit of a siege without seeing the usual hero rush. The entire clan had a blast at the siege! We defended the castle for a little over an hour before we were beaten by the advancers. We fought like heck, died alot, and kept coming back for more. I'm a little disappointed that the opposing team had to farm out help from level 78 toons to help them take it, but hey...it is L2 and it was cool to kill a level 78 character for the first time.
I really wish that more of the smaller clans would have signed up to siege the castle, and I do hope that they will do so in the future. Maybe if we keep the ranges somewhat like they were this past siege, we can get more people in on what a great game L2 is.
The whole idea of epic battles and comaraderie is what brought alot of people to L2 in the first place. Nowadays, the idea of an epic battle is about 20 to 40 people max on a siege field at any given time.
Leave that dead server of yours then. 20-40 ppl, man, your server must be like totally empty.
Leave that dead server of yours then. 20-40 ppl, man, your server must be like totally empty.
Nah, just totally uninterested. We had a really bad time with a bunch of upper level players completely dominating the siege affair. Got to the point that no one bothered to show up cause it was boring to constantly get one or two-shotted before you even got to the castle.
The whole idea of epic battles and comaraderie is what brought alot of people to L2 in the first place. Nowadays, the idea of an epic battle is about 20 to 40 people max on a siege field at any given time.
Leave that dead server of yours then. 20-40 ppl, man, your server must be like totally empty.
Hmmm, leave Sieghardt and go to a euro-time-based server full of FOTM botted toons... I'll pass.
the manor is "broken" if people are trading fruit to your castle and not to his.
lol no.
I actually had seeds to turn in to Dion or Heine (or Giran as well). The buybacks are dion and Heine were very very low and you had the alternative seeds set up!
Hmmm, leave Sieghardt and go to a euro-time-based server full of FOTM botted toons... I'll pass.
You like your FOTM botted toons there more then? ;) Every server has them, but if you really want to have epic sieges, yeah, you might have to move to a server with people playing. There's always Bartz too, altho not sure on its status since UR left.
I wasn't interested in the carebears when they appeared in the 80's. No need to relive it again on Bartz.
And yes, every server has their share of botted toons, but let's keep it real. It took Sieghardt 3 chronicles to get toons to the levels it took Teon 3 weeks to match.
Plus, it's still Euro time on teon. Great for euros, not for most Americans/Canadians.
FYI, The Dion siege had small forces show as the large forces were at other castles. The expected attacking force elected not to bother sieging because of the large number of defenders online at several other castles. Sieghardt is just fine, though some of us smaller clans are always enouraging new blood to come to the server and increase the fun.
the manor is "broken" if people are trading fruit to your castle and not to his.
lol no.
I actually had seeds to turn in to Dion or Heine (or Giran as well). The buybacks are dion and Heine were very very low and you had the alternative seeds set up!
Our buybacks were set in almost a mirror image of Giran and Oren castles. And our clan leader decided to offer alternative seeds because it was requested. And even Giran offered the alternative seeds as well so I don't see where our offering was a bad decision.