LOL. Just boost their heals, or up their P.Attack somewhat. SEs are still the best utility buffer/healer for playing with a wide variety of classes. That plus VR is why that particular class is chosen so often for boxing (not the, err, aesthetic attributes).
Haha, well ... he'd have to have thought of a more specific suggestion for suggestions. :p Then again we've talked our mouths fizzly over here of what they should do to boost SEs.
And guess who the general consesus (anti-crit buff) went to?
I really wonder what's going on in Korea to make them think that boosting WCs more is a good idea.
What you want boosted? Maybe something to balance the weight of those hooters?
everything or anything. se excels at nothing.
they have no unique buffs. they have no unique skils (besides pow but that is gimpest prophecy anyway)
so really... give se something.
They have Empower. I think only maybe OLs and one of the Summoners have that, but you don't see a lot of those.
They also have VR. Yes, I know WCs have this, but there really aren't all that many WCs, at least on my server.
The recharger nerf was harsh. OL's getting emp was kind of cruel. SE's not getting major heal was a BBBBB slap. Warcryers getting VR was lool. Why do people still play SE's?
They need more than bow chicka wawoh wawoh to survive this next patch imo. I would at least make them more of a mage/healer imo... Give them a heal move that heals both MP/HP and also a recharge move that gives AoE recharge to people within 500 range. Improve PoW and give SE's a 1200 range silence nuke. Endgame give them a summon-able flying pet that is immune to magic and has cancel as a spammable skill (mwhaha, carried away? no way).
Korea lost their think-tank when they lost the head-developers + 90 others due to "management-issue's" a bit back.
I would not be that surprised that they left as management was so ranged-type happy that any suggestion to balance/skills were undiscusable.
SE needing something sure.
But I think we are rechargers only never to do anything else as I again saw that in the translated CT1 patchnotes.
Way cool huh??
Nowadays I get 1/2 shotted by mage's even though I am 75+ in level.
Rock-Paper-Scissors balance
My shiny undercarriage.
I'm sorry, but I can't join in on the whole "boost SE!" bandwagon.
For most of L2's history (Release all the way through C4!), SE's were the healer class to have in party. It wasn't until C5, which was what, less than a year ago? that Elven Elders FINALLY got some lovin'.
SEs had it easy all this time and were incredibly "overpowered" as a support class. The two elder classes were supposed to play a hybrid healer/buffer class, but the SE seemed to be heavy on both ends while the EE was expected to survive on nothing but fast cast speed (which was kinda nerfed w/ the introduction of tattoos and SA's on weapons - an SE w/ Acumen SA, Tats and Avadon casted fast enough for most groups.)
On the buffs side of it, during Prelude-C2, SEs were given two of the most sought-after buffs in the game - Vampiric Rage and Empower. EEs had nothing even close to comparing with that. Nearly every group wanted one of those two buffs, with the exception of archer parties. (But this was the 'age of daggers' if you'll remember, when TOI was introduced and many archers rerolled daggers. Also, at the same time NCSoft gave SE's Vamp Rage, they nerfed Evasion, giving SE's an even bigger boost and EE's an even bigger nerf.)
On the healing side of it, SE's started out from the beginning with more heals than EE's. They had Greater Heal and Greater Group Heal. EE's did not get GGH (I still can't figure that one out.) And then, of course, came Purify (another one I really don't get!) Many mobs at the time paralyzed and players were low enough that they had to have (or at least thought they had to have) a healer that could purify. The only option for EEs was either to find a group that would go where mobs did not para or tag along as a back-up healer. The only heal EE's ever had that SE's didn't was Vitalize - but this was not even remotely an issue. Vitalize restores about the same HP as a normal heal, but costs more - plus, did not cure paralysis. Purify cures everything Vitalize does, also cures paralysis and costs less mp per skill than Vitalize does.
All this to say, SE's were extremely 'overpowered' in their role as a support class. They could play as main healer in a variety of situations and had great buffs. (Dagger teams w/o tank at portal - courtesy of VR!) They were the most sought after healer for 2.5 years.
IMO, NCsoft never should have given one class all of those good buffs and heals the way they did SEs. They should have broken it up more. If they had just given EE's purify instead of SE's, I think that would have really put the two on more equal footing, where both classes would be desirable. But they screwed up for 4 chronicles and now are trying to fix it. Did they go overboard nerfing SEs and boosting EEs? I honestly don't care! LOL I'm just glad that I'm finally playing a desirable class! You can't even know how sickening it was to see "GLF SE" or "GLF SE... or Bish" for 4 chronicles straight. I do want it to be balanced, but at the same time – most of the player base is 75+ and subclassed by now, so xp groups are not as huge of an issue as they used to be. Therefore, IMO at least, the nerf to SEs is not as harmful to them as the 2.5 year long nerf the EEs had to suffer and level through. And maybe a little part of me is looking at it as revenge to all those SEs who started lower than me and shot up to 75+ in half the time it took me... SEs who were actually logged in and played by clan members when they were ofline while EEs who were actually online sat around begging for groups... all because EE's did not have Emp or Vamp Rage or Purify...
OMG SE's killed my family :(((((((( Nerrrrrrrrrrrrffffffffff and keep them nerfed!!!!!!!!!!!11111111
BTW now EE's had it really easy for 1 chronicle.So if they are nerfed after CT1 its ok, right?I mean they were overpowered for 2 chronicles!!!shift+one
I think looking at this and totally turning a blind eye to people who actually ARE just starting to play the game and ARE NOT 75+ with a subclass is very dumb, insulting, and uncalled for.
To the poster on page one with the long-winded useless post - nothing you said made sense. I mean, god forbid Purify Cost less than Vitalize. Vitalize Lacks Para Cure and Purify Lacks the Heal. Please use your brain.
There are alot of other factors to be taken into consideration other than your own bastardized opinion of another class.
I understand you are butthurt becasue you couldn't figure out how to make your class useful other than getting an F1 to mash all day long - that is not the case with the other/skilled EEs that I know.
NC does a weird job balancing classes, and in my mind healer/buffer classes is one of the worst cases. Still, that's no reason to wish so much bad for SEs. The bad thing for EEs is not that SEs exists, it's that EE buffs are mostly defensive, not offensive. You know, in a way I kinda wish NC would just give all buffs and most heals to all buffer classes, and then let people just pick a buffer to based on the looks of the different races. The only uniqueness I'd care to see remain would be the group buff casting of the WC, and maybe the Bishop role as the specialized healer class.
I'm sorry, but I can't join in on the whole "boost SE!" bandwagon.
For most of L2's history (Release all the way through C4!), SE's were the healer class to have in party. It wasn't until C5, which was what, less than a year ago? that Elven Elders FINALLY got some lovin'.
SEs had it easy all this time and were incredibly "overpowered" as a support class. The two elder classes were supposed to play a hybrid healer/buffer class, but the SE seemed to be heavy on both ends while the EE was expected to survive on nothing but fast cast speed (which was kinda nerfed w/ the introduction of tattoos and SA's on weapons - an SE w/ Acumen SA, Tats and Avadon casted fast enough for most groups.)
They were very wanted because during the "early days" of L2 (up to C3 or so), there were no high level skills. When you compared a prophet and a SE, both had pretty much the same important buffs, just that SE had VR/EMP and prophet had haste (which also comes in bottles). Yes sure, prophet also had stuff like zerk/holy weapon, but you did not really need that stuff. If you compared SE to Bishops, both had greater heal/greater group heal, so both could function as healers in pve parties (where greater battle heal or the slightly higher cast speed of the bishop were not needed). Then in C4, NCSoft introduced high end skills and people got their 3rd classes plus got S grade, and the SE first got some problems when it became obvious that for some of the new areas SE heals were not good enough. In C5, even more high level skills were introduced and the "real" buffer classes got e.g. higher levels of shield/might, more useful resist skills, more people reached 78 and high lvl parties wanted specific prophecy buffs/cov, pvp got so harsh that anything but EE/bishop heals became useless and the SE basically got nothing new (except for some skills all the other classes got, too - so that was not anything to improve the SE situation).
So now we had: SE heals useless in anything but basic duo/trio pve groups, same for buffs, SE can still recharge but EE is better with clarity/pow. Seriously, it has been quite some time since I saw "group lf SE". And Warcryer a rare class? Sorry, but lol.
Now Interlude comes around and brings - nothing for the SE. Some classes get 79/80 skills to look forward to, but not the SE.
CT1? Still no love, only thing I see is that "buff a target so it can be recharged better" skill, which of course EE gets, too.
As I see it, that's 3 chronicles of being nerfed or neglected (C5, Interlude, CT1), plus one chronicle (C4) in which class design problems first became obvious for high lvl SE (not being good at anything specific, while other classes stormed ahead in their specific area - in a game where people usually only take "the best" into their parties). Isn't it telling that the only interesting buffs people say the SE has are VR/emp - things from prelude and C2 - while all the other classes get super powerful skills in every new expansion?
Being a good hybrid class during the early days / lower levels of the game is no justification for making the class completely gimp and useless during the rest of the game. Nobody who started his SE during prelude wants to be told now "well your class was overpowered way back then when everybody was lvl 50/60, so it's only fair that now nobody wants your 78+ char except for recharges and out of party VR/emp, and during sieges, well, you can always play your sub" (ok I exaggerate - I still get clan parties of course, but what I usually do there IS nothing but recharge, buff VR/emp, smack mobs, throw PoW on those who do not insist on PoF).
The bad thing for EEs is not that SEs exists, it's that EE buffs are mostly defensive, not offensive.
The bad thing for both EEs and SEs is that SEs are too easy to box.
Well, there is some truth to that, and I understand what you're saying. But still, an EE could just as easily be boxed - but most players don't want to box an EE, because they have to choose 1 set of buffs for boxing, and the EE buff set is not the one they are going to pick.
Edit: I would love to have EE buffs in addition to other buffs myself. I just would not choose to go only with EE buffs, for the most part.
About the whole 'internal balance' for the healer classes thing, the 'should' state is clearly like this:
- SEs should be able to offer sufficient (but not top notch) heals, buffs and recharges for a small group in a low-risk area. Unfortunately, since they are so easy to box, they can most easily do this out of party ... which is getting fixed in the shape of a wolf I guess.
- Prophets should have the best buff set of all classes, with top line offensive, defensive and utility buffs. They are the one dedicated buffer class after all. By the same token, they should not be able to buff a 9 man party with hybrids and summons/pets without help from either an elder or WC. That mainly means giving prophets haste 4~5/acumen 4~5 with the same effect haste 2/acumen 3 have now and leaving the bottles at effect level 2/3, as well as fixing the CoV/PoF situation.
- EEs should have a solid collection of unique 'we already have buffs so hey these look pretty good' buffs, which they do. They also should be a decent healer and emergency management. BRES, BSoEs and the constant bishop boosts have made the latter more and more untrue.
- Bishops should be the best healer. BtB and invincibility really have no business being in their skillset, but what's done is done.
- WCs should have a mostly incomplete skillset that's really only good for back-up buffing in big groups, and one that comes late. The latter is still true, the former ain't. Oh, and fix their freaking offense while you're at it - this was never a pure buffer class to begin with, so wth happened?
- OLs are pretty much the same as WCs. They're not buffers, they're not ally(clan) healers. So how about not giving them buffs they have no business having (when they're supposed to have an odd selection of buffs that would never have been sufficient for PvE) and fixing their seals? IIRC they were an AoE class at a point...
What I think needs to be done?
- Stretch all buffs up to level 74. The difference between buffs from a level 74 character and a level 56 character should be the same as the difference between DDs of levels 74 and 56. For this purpose, boost cancel again so that it will pretty much wipe the slate clean with buffs from an OOP box or a clan hall and make buffs from higher-level buffers so 'strong' that they only have that small chance of being removed.
- Give prophets and SEs even more mana management, ideally in the form of passive MP VR to encourage people to hit things a little.
- Give both elders a variant on greater heal which heals-and-buffs (of course in group heal variant on SE, single target on EE), giving various effects that might help uncinch a PvE situation.
- At the same moment, give EEs their self-recharge back but make it a point to influence and limit it using a HMG-style passive rather than a reduction in cost of recharge (easily accomplished by moving the pre/post mana costs around a bit).
- Don't give WCs top levels of all their current buffs when you stretch the buffs, only of a select number... but only if the DoTs and drains get fixed.
- Leave OLs alone since they're hurting enough and fix the seals. :p Oh and make them able to buff pets.
Last but not least: Slow the pace of PvP to make debuffs, status effects, burns and heals more efficient. :P Start by nerfing crits!
The bad thing for EEs is not that SEs exists, it's that EE buffs are mostly defensive, not offensive.
The bad thing for both EEs and SEs is that SEs are too easy to box.
Well, there is some truth to that, and I understand what you're saying. But still, an EE could just as easily be boxed - but most players don't want to box an EE, because they have to choose 1 set of buffs for boxing, and the EE buff set is not the one they are going to pick.
If you want, you may even box a Necro for Might 1 and Shield 1. It doesn't solve the problem: boxed SE for most of PvE situations is better than live SE or EE.
Yep, it's pretty freaking difficult to add a better performance/exp taken ratio to a party than a level 58 out of party SE. Fortunately wolves mean more DD potential so you can actually hope to add damage for the exp you're taking, maybe enough to compensate together with the "better performance than the box" that a live SE offers.
It's also a reason that people need to be forced to level up buffers - competing with an in party boxed SE is infinitely easier than competing with an OOP one. :p
If you want, you may even box a Necro for Might 1 and Shield 1. It doesn't solve the problem: boxed PP/SE for most of PvE situations is better than live PP/SE/WC or EE.
About the whole 'internal balance' for the healer classes thing, the 'should' state is clearly like this:
- SEs should be able to offer sufficient (but not top notch) heals, buffs and recharges for a small group in a low-risk area. Unfortunately, since they are so easy to box, they can most easily do this out of party ... which is getting fixed in the shape of a wolf I guess.
- Prophets should have the best buff set of all classes, with top line offensive, defensive and utility buffs. They are the one dedicated buffer class after all. By the same token, they should not be able to buff a 9 man party with hybrids and summons/pets without help from either an elder or WC. That mainly means giving prophets haste 4~5/acumen 4~5 with the same effect haste 2/acumen 3 have now and leaving the bottles at effect level 2/3, as well as fixing the CoV/PoF situation.
- EEs should have a solid collection of unique 'we already have buffs so hey these look pretty good' buffs, which they do. They also should be a decent healer and emergency management. BRES, BSoEs and the constant bishop boosts have made the latter more and more untrue.
- Bishops should be the best healer. BtB and invincibility really have no business being in their skillset, but what's done is done.
- WCs should have a mostly incomplete skillset that's really only good for back-up buffing in big groups, and one that comes late. The latter is still true, the former ain't. Oh, and fix their freaking offense while you're at it - this was never a pure buffer class to begin with, so wth happened?
- OLs are pretty much the same as WCs. They're not buffers, they're not ally(clan) healers. So how about not giving them buffs they have no business having (when they're supposed to have an odd selection of buffs that would never have been sufficient for PvE) and fixing their seals? IIRC they were an AoE class at a point...
What I think needs to be done?
- Stretch all buffs up to level 74. The difference between buffs from a level 74 character and a level 56 character should be the same as the difference between DDs of levels 74 and 56. For this purpose, boost cancel again so that it will pretty much wipe the slate clean with buffs from an OOP box or a clan hall and make buffs from higher-level buffers so 'strong' that they only have that small chance of being removed.
- Give prophets and SEs even more mana management, ideally in the form of passive MP VR to encourage people to hit things a little.
- Give both elders a variant on greater heal which heals-and-buffs (of course in group heal variant on SE, single target on EE), giving various effects that might help uncinch a PvE situation.
- At the same moment, give EEs their self-recharge back but make it a point to influence and limit it using a HMG-style passive rather than a reduction in cost of recharge (easily accomplished by moving the pre/post mana costs around a bit).
- Don't give WCs top levels of all their current buffs when you stretch the buffs, only of a select number... but only if the DoTs and drains get fixed.
- Leave OLs alone since they're hurting enough and fix the seals. :p Oh and make them able to buff pets.
Last but not least: Slow the pace of PvP to make debuffs, status effects, burns and heals more efficient. :P Start by nerfing crits!
Sigh, Maline, Maline, ..... Methinks thou dost not like the color green, or the beauty of the savage beast. Oh, for shame!
I like WCs and OLs. Neither were meant to be a full buffer class - they have been removed from their original function and been turned into slightly more AoE buff/heal*****es.
Not a turn of events most live players of either class really appreciate, I think. The fact that I'm for weakening their buff sets does not imply that I'm for nerfing the classes altogether.
Tsk Tsk... people fussing at me for hating SEs... I never said I didn't think SEs were nerfed in C5 or that I didn't think they should be balanced. (I did however, say I was enjoying the fact that EEs were a 'wanted' class after so long.) On the contrary, I don't think NCsoft has done anything right regarding the elders (SE or EE) since the beginning. First the pendulum swung one way, now the other. They need to flippin' fix it. I think some of the suggestions here are good ones - others would just be too much, taking us back the other way (just like some suggestions for EEs in C3 were too much.)
IMO, they need to specialize the two elder classes a bit more. EEs should lean a bit more to the healing side while SEs should lean a bit more to the buffing side. Give each cross-skills (like heals to SEs and buffs to EEs) but make it so that each has a niche.
The problem with this (and I think a lot of SEs are already feeling) is that the SE is becoming too 'buff-centric' and therefore oop only. Unfortunately, NCsoft has no idea how to make a buffer work, in the NA market at least. This happened long ago to all the prophets (as we all know.) There are very few live PPs and they are constantly battling the oop mentality. NCsoft needs to do something with all the buffer classes to make them more fun to play / more desirable to be played live. Maline's suggestion about increasing buffs to 74 is not a bad one, but people would just bot their oop PPs and SEs up to 74 without batting an eye. It really wouldn't solve the problem.
Some changes I think would at least start to balance out the two elders (on the condition that NCsoft fixes buffers):
Shillien Elders
<ul type="square"> +Major Heal*
+Clarity
+Return 2 (not my idea, I first saw it in this thread, but why not? It wouldn't be a huge boost, but it wouldn't affect any other classes so why not give it to both SEs and Bishops? Heck... give SEs PR too! That would spice PvP up a bit more, if a group had an SE and an EE in it, the enemy would have to take out both players instead of just focus-firing the EE.)
Elven Elders
<ul type="square"> +Greater Group Heal (NOT Major Group Heal)
+Purify
-Vitalize? (to help balance out more with Bish...)
Not that all of that would completely balance the classes out, it may even unbalance some of the support classes, but IMO the SE should have those skills and the EE should have the skills I listed for them.
*I think the whole Major Heal introduction was just one big screw up. What was the point of that, other than nerfing SEs and knocking buffs off bars?
MH alone was not a big screw up.Nerfing GH was.MH already was superior in all aspects - heal power , MP cost , reuse timer.
And untill NC makes boxing impossible any SE buff boost will not do anything to make them more usefull to groups.
Just remember: The second that SEs receive sufficient heals, there is no longer any reason to party an EE or a bishop. The cast speed alone makes a huge difference in utter stress situations like 'AoE pull gone wrong', but buffs >>>>>>> heals, and the SE is infinitely better equipped in that area.
Their heals need to be sufficient for ordinary PvE - and MH is beyond overkill there.
Sorry but in high lvl areas in C4 SE heals was not powerfull/fast enought especially in stress situations(i'm speaking about ordinary exp groups without OE'ed gear/prophecies).There is nothing that live SE's could offer to group that couldnt be done with oop box+heal potions after introduction of MH and GH nerf.
Greetings, Im a msg board lurker but this is my first post, be gentle :p
I starter playing more or less 5 weeks ago on Franz, and indeed my main is an SE. I had difficulty deciding on which class to play; especially after all the "Horror" stories I heard of SEs: that theyre mostly boxed, that their heals suck and lack of unique buffs. But in the end their more offensive buffs and "emergency" heal capabilities seemed more interesting to me than a PP or an EE.
I´ve seen an amount of live SEs on Franz. I swear to god (Shillen? :p) I almost, almost see them more than any orc buffers; and even more amazingly I don´t think I´ve seen an Overlord, even once, but I bet there are some.
Despite the amount of live SEs, I have yet to see a Hero, a party or anyone else shout "GLF SE". It´s always either an EE or WC.
I get very good exp. in small parties (duos, trios); but when it gets to bigger ones things get a little tough. And there is just no way, of course, that I can be a sufficient healer for a 9 person party. I do get asked for clan parties though, so in that sense I´m cared for. But I seriously got the impression that EEs, and PPs, and well almost every other buffer class is more wanted than a live SE. A boxed one is always preferred over a live one :( despite how people say the opposite.
Having said that though, no, I still don´t feel like rerolling :p my SE is fun, at least up until now ;) But I think that perhaps SEs need a bit of love in the next update?
I think this is why it's no big problem to you. You didn't see the glory days of the SE (Prelude - C3). There was no better support class to be. Good heals, great buffs, everyone wanted you.
That's why so many of them are oop-boxed. Because everyone loved having one, everyone decided to make their own. That led to fewer live SEs getting a party, which coupled with the nerfs in C4, C5, and Interlude caused a great many SEs (myself included) to reroll.
Now, I still play mine and I agree, in a small group of two or three an SE is a good support class. But once you get into larger groups, there had better be a real healer.
If they made defensive roles and made the ratio of support classes to DPS classes a little more skewed for support-heavy parties, things could change.
Its not as if ppl can OOP DPS chars (well, besides big boom :>) for exp. However with support INparty, they could make sweet spots for heavily supported DPS groups that offer either the best exp/loot or the best gameplay (easy, hard, unique?, bonus for the ammount of support chars inparty?). As it is now, SE's may as well be npc that u can rent, for an hour of buffy buffy.
IMO, they need to specialize the two elder classes a bit more.
No, thanks. One of the reasons I chose an EE was that they were the most universal class in the game (it was before bow nerf).
EEs should lean a bit more to the healing side while SEs should lean a bit more to the buffing side. Give each cross-skills (like heals to SEs and buffs to EEs) but make it so that each has a niche.
Actually, I'd prefer more debuffs for both. And for PP.
Elven Elders
<ul type="square"> +Greater Group Heal (NOT Major Group Heal)
+Purify
-Vitalize? (to help balance out more with Bish...)
Well...
I like having buffslots for my buffs, I can keep purifier out of job in ToI and AL (Trance is cheap and fast), and I've already forgot where Vitalize is on my bars. So, you are giving Major Heal to SEs, but no real change to me.
.Some changes I think would at least start to balance out the two elders (on the condition that NCsoft fixes buffers):
Shillien Elders
<ul type="square"> +Major Heal*
+Clarity
+Return 2 (not my idea, I first saw it in this thread, but why not? It wouldn't be a huge boost, but it wouldn't affect any other classes so why not give it to both SEs and Bishops? Heck... give SEs PR too! That would spice PvP up a bit more, if a group had an SE and an EE in it, the enemy would have to take out both players instead of just focus-firing the EE.)
Elven Elders
<ul type="square"> +Greater Group Heal (NOT Major Group Heal)
+Purify
-Vitalize? (to help balance out more with Bish...)
Not that all of that would completely balance the classes out, it may even unbalance some of the support classes, but IMO the SE should have those skills and the EE should have the skills I listed for them.
*I think the whole Major Heal introduction was just one big screw up. What was the point of that, other than nerfing SEs and knocking buffs off bars?
not a good idea to give same buffs to 2 classes, some buffs should be unique, coz only thats why people take you in party (Warlock coz of cat for pve, EEs coz of pr for pvp, SEs coz of emp... aaah that with SEs unique buffs was messed up already)
some buffs should stay in this game unique, by giving same skills to others will not balance game... look at OL... his end game buffs are messed up now too strong so well lets correct it so he cant buff whole ally with it...
EEs have more defend skills + more heal skills so if more skill to EEs the first that i would give tham would be crit protect buff or arrow protect buff, it would work in pvp an in pve good
SEs are more dmg oriented buffers, but new dmg buff for any DD could mess up the whole game just more... but they have nice INT that isnt used for nothing exept root, shackle mp burn or erase (we all know how usless those in pvp are), so why not give tham some nice dubuff that they could use in pvp and be needed in pvp partys? Maybe 1 target CP heal would solve it all...
coz whan it comes to pve SEs are just fine, no need to boost tham there, yes many people box SEs coz its easyer to have a slave than search for live one, but its always live SE > box SE whatever you say. Yes many people reroll from SEs or are blessed if they can sub, coz in end game there is harder for tham to find pvp or pve partys, they are missing some good unique skills coz all other buffers, healers > SE in end game.
i still like to play mine SE but im starting to wonder for how long ill be able to wait for something usefull she can do in pvp
Just remember: The second that SEs receive sufficient heals, there is no longer any reason to party an EE or a bishop.
As long as those heals cannot be boxed efficiently by DDs, there is nothing wrong in giving them to SEs. The demand on live healers is high enough, at least on Hindemith in both EU and NA prime times.
And Bishop and EE still have their Trance and Turn Undead. And bards love Clarity.
Their heals need to be sufficient for ordinary PvE - and MH is beyond overkill there.
A slightly more effective heal could be an ok thing; then again like I stated before I´m still relatively new (but boy do I learn fast :)) But I never, ever expect an SEs heals to be as effective as a Bishops, or as fast as an EEs.
Hm I also envy them for their capabilities of doing damage to undeads! I read a few threads and seems like some people would also like SEs to have some soloing possibility with undeads or something like it..
I´m trying not to let myself be discouraged, so far I´ve had fun, and hopefully it´ll continue... (btw this is totally unrelated but I saw a dwarf who had subbclassed into an EE, nothing special I´m sure but she looked so funny casting.)
pcoz whan it comes to pve SEs are just fine, no need to boost tham there, yes many people box SEs coz its easyer to have a slave than search for live one, but its always live SE > box SE whatever you say.
Live SE in group that buffs and then uses heal 4 times during buffround is > box that buffs and sits for 20 minutes while you use 20 heal potions per buffround?And no , 99,8% population wont go searching for place where bish/EE is overkill and SEs heals are just enough.
i still like to play mine SE but im starting to wonder for how long ill be able to wait for something usefull she can do in pvp
If you mean levels , well , never.52lvl SE can make same impact on pvp as 80lvl SE.
If you meant new skills in future expansions...We will see...
pcoz whan it comes to pve SEs are just fine, no need to boost tham there, yes many people box SEs coz its easyer to have a slave than search for live one, but its always live SE > box SE whatever you say.
Live SE in group that buffs and then uses heal 4 times during buffround is > box that buffs and sits for 20 minutes while you use 20 heal potions per buffround?And no , 99,8% population wont go searching for place where bish/EE is overkill and SEs heals are just enough.
Some people would like to go into the places where Bishop+SE aren't overkill. Too bad NCsoft nerfed SE+EE combo.
i still like to play mine SE but im starting to wonder for how long ill be able to wait for something usefull she can do in pvp
If you mean levels , well , never.52lvl SE can make same impact on pvp as 80lvl SE.
WM2, PoWind (sorry). And as long as your enemy has melees, Mana Burn, Windshackle and o/ed Root.
A slightly more effective heal could be an ok thing; then again like I stated before I´m still relatively new (but boy do I learn fast :)) But I never, ever expect an SEs heals to be as effective as a Bishops, or as fast as an EEs.
Of course not. But that also is pretty much the problem - that NCSoft made the SE a hybrid buffer/healer class, but then they forgot to give the SE something unique which STILL makes them wanted in parties, even though they cannot heal as well as a bishop or EE AND cannot buff as well as a prophet or warcryer. Right now, the only thing a SE is good for is for a duo or trio in an easy exp spot. And even then you can run into problems when things get slightly harder (i.e. accidentally pulling several varka silenos mobs, or several mobs at hot springs), the heals are already too bad then and you have to spam battle heal and mp rest afterwards...
What is the point in having a class which can only be played live in small exp duos/trios? Getting exp and lvling up is not the "final goal" of the game, you level up to then actually DO something, like participate in sieges, go see the very hard hunting spots with good spoils/drops, pvp, do epic raids. Why would anybody play a class which can only watch in envy when others go to an interesting full party exp place? Why would anybody play a class which is basically useless in pvp? (Yes, you can participate in epic raids - as recharge bot, no complaints about that though). And if you get a spot in a good full exp party, you sometimes hear "we could use a little bit more DD power here", which translates to "would be good to have the SE out of party and get another DD instead, the SE isn't doing anything anyway (except buff vr every 20 minutes)"...
So, to sum up:
SE can buff, but not good enough (since it's only a subset of PP buffs, and important buffs are missing, so you would need another buffer anyway, so why have the SE for buffs in the first place?).
SE can heal, but not good enough (understandable since Bishops should be better - but the difference in heal power is so big that SE basically CANNOT heal anymore).
So, what is the point of the SE? Only duos? That's not enough, sorry. This class seriously lacks a reason to exist. Either strengthen one of the areas (buffing or healing) so that the SE actually CAN function either as a healer or a buffer for a full party (which would of course threaten prophets and bishops, but there's a lack of live healers and buffers anyway...), or give the SE something completely new so that people want them IN parties instead of sitting outside. And not only some debuffs for pvp, I mean something useful for large exp parties.
As you said yourself Sakura: In C4 greater heal was insufficient. That's because it had a really lengthy cool-down, which meant that EEs and bishops' GH>Vit>GH and GH>GBH>GH chains netted them the advantage. Since MH is pretty much spammable, having only one heal would lose its disadvantage, and the SE's cast speed would be covered for.
We all know that healing can be boxed fairly efficiently if the main player is a DD (because the DD barely needs any attention), so I don't see giving a fully sufficient PvE heal to a commonly boxed class again as great idea.
If at all, I'd say give them MGH - not an alternative to MH, but still a skill that can help significantly in touchy situations - or maybe their own line of heals, all in GH style but with varying effects (i.e. for example a heal that raises the VR effect you are currently receiving for 15 secs, or one that has the crit protection property etc.).
Well , heals would solve 2 problems :
1.You say that healers could be easily boxed but of all people that i know only one actually boxed a healer in places where you need heals.Most of the people will just go and box a buffer in easy spot.
2.Right now to feel and be usefull i can do only one thing - recharge.Pushing F9 every eight seconds isnt very fun experience and adding more active skills would be good.
As I said, it'd be better to give SEs their own brand of heals than giving them the fast MP efficient point heal that was supposed to be the EE's specialty (and already got shipped off to bishops who used to have to drain themselves dry with GBH to heal as fast as an EE).
Trying to give all the support classes all the same skills (except not) is not an appropriate solution to the problem at hand.
I find the 7x calling someone else a nerd funny. Game balance is a hobby (and interesting subject), so discussing it is fun.
As for the balance reason: All outlined above. If SEs get a strong, cheap spammable single target heal, that's a harsher passive nerf to EEs than all the crap that's been going on with bishops (including Invocation) put together.
If SEs get a strong, cheap spammable single target heal, that's a harsher passive nerf to EEs than all the crap that's been going on with bishops (including Invocation) put together.
exactly, 1 target CP heal would be much better or the chance to OE grater heals, that would help too, but most of all debuffs
pcoz whan it comes to pve SEs are just fine, no need to boost tham there, yes many people box SEs coz its easyer to have a slave than search for live one, but its always live SE > box SE whatever you say.
Live SE in group that buffs and then uses heal 4 times during buffround is > box that buffs and sits for 20 minutes while you use 20 heal potions per buffround?And no , 99,8% population wont go searching for place where bish/EE is overkill and SEs heals are just enough.
live SE can do much more than box one, coz its live player playing the char... in any party can go sm wrong really fast, live player can react much faster than box. btw do i have to write here what live char can do more and better than a box oop char, whan i see your 70+? :eek:
i still like to play mine SE but im starting to wonder for how long ill be able to wait for something usefull she can do in pvp
If you mean levels , well , never.52lvl SE can make same impact on pvp as 80lvl SE.
If you meant new skills in future expansions...We will see...
as sm wrote already 80SE>52SE in pvp anytime, again on 70+ you should know that :eek:
i meant i like to play her in pve and pvp, but in pvp its just not so much fun, coz its not much she can offer in pvp, whan it comes to buffs/heals or debuffs
The entire game has changed since the beginning, no class is the same as it was in the beginning. The fact is, SE's were harshly nerfed. We can't run, we can't fight, we can't res, we can't even heal as well. Orcs have the same buffs and they do it faster AND they can help deal damage in party. EE's can solo undead...don't cry about EE's and how they started. This post is about SE's. They need a boost. Something, anything...the AOE recharge would be awesome. How about trance like the EE's got? What the hell am I supposed to do in pvp? Root, don't make cry...seriously...
You can help deal damage in party - only a few points off from an orc (who won't have MP for extended amounts of soul cry anyway after buffing). It's just that there are hardly any SEs with +STR (or +DEX) around, it seems that's left entirely to the orcs and prophets to do.
There is no point looking at what SEs can or can't do without looking at what the other healers can or can't do. If you just look at them in an isolated light, they have a fantastic all-around set of buffs, decent point heals and recharges... which would be oh-so-awesome if everyone else didn't do it better.
It's just that there are hardly any SEs with +STR (or +DEX) around, it seems that's left entirely to the orcs and prophets to do.
In an attempt at trying what has been said, I stripped the +DEX/+CON from Olorae last night and set her up with DC Light and a Bloody Orchid (all shadow).
It was not pretty, it was not efficient, but .01% per kill was the result. Died twice finding a place I could do it though, so I'm ultimately -14.5% down for the night.
I would have to go +STR or +DEX to make a difference, but nuking my CON means less hp, means less stand-up fighting.
I don't know what you were trying to solo, but considering that Amathal can solo (yes, solo) dark reds in B Grade robes with a dagger without dying (those are still green to Olo) I'd say you picked a bad spot. Let me join you for a hunt at some point to demonstrate, PM me if you're still on (should you still have the shadow stuff).
Depends on the manor on your server - and solo at 76+ is rough for all classes. Generally, especially the SE (who needs GSAPs and GMHPs on top of the usual elixirs/pots of every other class) will have a tough time breaking even.
For a prophet I'd say FotD (Tallum & Invigor & MBar = god mode there), but the SE doesn't have all that ... Should probably grab a second 'useless' class (dwarf, tank, etc.) and duo a catacomb room. FList should be full of them if you've been soloing so far.
Then again - I've always said 'to low 7x'. :P I'm really hazy about the 76+ spots.
there are a fair few classes in game that struggle to break even adena wise
as an se you should try and get into one of those fancy nuker duos i read about
will be hard with all the boxing, but i know on my server at least i have seen a few ppl shout for a se
HoT overbuff removes the use of SE heal in optimized parties were you're buffed to maximum, ie parties not for SE to begin with because there's already a WC.
Otherwise SE heal is already enough to help the main healer on pole party and keep things going without pots in most of small parties.
Anyway, VR nerf for pole parties is clearly not the end of the world for SE. The end of abusive poling maybe. SE will still level fast thank to three untouched things : Empower, Wild Magic and Recharge. It means indecent amount of XP in duo with nukers.
Those who are crying that Bishops get all the nice things, reroll Bishop and you'll understand what Bishops lack of : parties. Then you'll understand why saying Bishops get nice things every patch is absurd.
SE are still the most efficient PvE assists, simply because it's very quick to go duo. The time to create a bigger party makes any other assist's advantage fade out.
thx for those infos, was just curious about those solo places :D
btw as SE i didnt solo after 50+ and the solos i did before have been just for fun whan i wanted to be alone (doing the same with wolf still),
thats why i think SEs are good in PVE and dont need more skills, mb some for fun but they are OK in PVE, its the PVP part that they are just a joke in especially after the heal nerf