Welcome to Lineage2, the best game I have ever played, and I have played a LOT.
This game is designed to be played for a long time, so advancing in the game takes more effort than in most other games. I am a L2 old timer, 3+ years in it now, and still having more fun all the time. Please let me share a hint that has made all the difference in making the game great fun:
Don't Cheat.
One of the most common cheats is to purchase an already levelled up character/account. If you do this you are hurting your game enjoyment and the enjoyment of all the rest of us in several substantial ways:
1. The game content in levels 1 - 50 (or whatever level) contains a great deal of fun. If you skip it, you miss the fun.
2. If you skip levels you do not learn the Essential tactics to play at upper levels. This is L2 specific knowledge, haviing played other games is not good enough. I would rather have an honestly levelled 30 in my group than a purchased lvl 70 (who won't know jack about anything and is a danger to their group).
3. You learn the game lore by playing through the lower levels. The history of the world is rich and deep, it will enhance your game play to know it. You learn it by doing quests throughout the levels.
4. You cannot fake being in the game a long time. The old timers will Quickly spot the new player with a high level. They will mostly despise you, they will laugh behind your back, they may take advantage of you. You will not have the knowledge to fake it, it cannot be done.
5. Why pay someone else to play a game you pay to play? It makes no sense.
6. Every time you long in, you click "I Agree" to the Eula. When you cheat you are lying on that click, and such lying does effect the kind of person you are. Game or not, its a real decision that relates to the kind of person you really are. If this statement bothers you, it proves that it is true.
6. The organizations which supply powerlevelling disrupt the game itself. Their huge numbers of PMs cause lag, their bots disrupt the economy. When you support them you hurt all the players of L2....which is one of the reasons that the old timers will despise you if you purchase a toon.
7. The toon you purchase was botted. People saw it, they will recognize you as a botted toon. You may well have been reported to a GM so your toon (and money) will dissapear with the account ban.
8. All these reasons apply to other methods of cheating as well. Purchasing adena causes the bots who generate that adena. If you don't like bots, then encourage everyone you know NOT to buy adena. If you buy adena, then the bots are YOUR FAULT.
So welcome to L2, it is a wonderful game which will enrich your life if you play it right.
Some very good advice here, Definitely needs that sticky
the problems is that it isn't really a "welcome players" and then game advice.
It's more like, "Welcome players, I'm tired of cheaters so here's my advice so that you don't ruin the game".
I'm not sure how new players will react to that. Will they indeed take it seriously or will they roll their eyes?
It's like welcoming someone into your home and before they get 2 steps into the door, you start a litany on what they shouldn't do, which towels to use, to kindly remove their shoes and please stick to the guest parlor.
True Sovrath, but isn't the time to tell a new player not to buy an account when they are first visiting the boards, BEFORE THEY DO IT?
I can't disagree.
It's just that I think the tone of the post is more like "if you are a new player do not buy money or items - here's why".
I think that new players will see the post and think "oh, I'm a new player! Maybe there is advice on class or leveling or getting into a clan, etc."
Then they open the post and it's a sermon.
I can't disagree with it and it's very well written and comprehensive. Should be stickied. I just wonder if you'll lose more people than you gain.
From my experience, people don't like to be preached at. Especially if they haven't done anything yet. They tend to get defensive or their eyes glaze over.
Anyways, that's my 2 cents for whatever it is worth. Perhaps if there was other advice there it would be more about "advice".
To me it looks like Rumpunch's 95 Theses of Contention nailed to the Wittenberg Church door!
Well, sticky it with an edit of the usual new player information then:
1. This is not a kind game. People can and will harm your in game progress, and it is their right to do so in this game.
2. This is not a quick game. Everything takes time, and if you can't enjoy spending time on the game, you won't enjoy it without cheating.
3. This is not a one-track game. You need to watch your finances and your level progress: Just hunting will generally not supply you with sufficient money to stay in gear appropriate to your level. Find a money-making method fast: Consider one of the two styles, either while hunting (repeatable quests (http://lineage2.stratics.com/content/library/quests/), manor (http://lineage2.stratics.com/content/features/manorsystem/), AoE (http://www.lineage2.com/Knowledge/race_human_skill.html?my_class=human_warlord)), or in town/while you're away (buy low sell high, crafting, consumable vending)*.
4. This is not a solo game. This game is all about clans - clan drama, clan raids, clan fun, clan groups, clan wars. But do not find just any clan, but find a clan that suits you. Here are a few questions that you should ask yourself before joining a clan:
- Does the clan's charter reflect my stance on ... roleplaying/PvP/cheating?
- Is the clan very active? If no, are those who come online usually online around my time?
- Do they usually speak my language? There are many foreign clans in game, especially Greek and French ones.
- Do they have the right levels for me to hunt with? Being in a clan with people lower level than yourself can be an exercise of frustration - which shouldn't apply to a new player - but being with people who are much higher level can be annoying as well, as you won't be able to significantly contribute in hunting parties for a long time to come.
- Do they have the right classes for me to hunt with? It's no fun playing a support class in a clan where everyone plays one on a second computer, and by the same token, it's not fun playing a class designed to kill 20 mobs at once in a clan full of people who can hit one at most. If you play a speciality class, make sure you are in a class where you can form up reasonable parties!
5. This is still a game. Trying to compete with everyone immediately will drive you either out of game or into cheating. Enjoy your journey up, don't pressure yourself, and laugh about the game rather than gritting your teeth. It's supposed to be fun, and your attitude towards it is the only thing that can determine this.
* There aren't many guides around for this, because most of the methods for this only offer profit for a very limited amount of players, and people are therefore not too keen to tell it all - I'm one of them in all honesty. Look through the Player Guides forum to glimpse a bit here and there.
It's an interesting post, but I'm not sure it would particularly encourage or discourage buying accounts. It's not hard to figure out that in a game where it takes literally years to level, people would notice if random level 75s suddenly popped up all over the place with no clans and no clue on how the game worked. The people who buy accounts likely don't care.
The people who just start the game as normal, I'm not sure it even occurs to most of us to buy accounts/bot/whatever (why would I pay some scrub to play a game for me that is supposedly a leisure activity?).
But yeah, possibly you might want to re-title the post to "reasons to not buy accounts" or something. Fewer of us noobs wandering in, staring at it, and scratching our heads in confusion :P
(why would I pay some scrub to play a game for me that is supposedly a leisure activity?).
So many people start by buying 10, 20mil to 'start off' it's ridiculous - and from there they get worse. No, it makes no sense, but they do it regardlessly - because for them, failing to win at the game (i.e. buying things) is more important than actually enjoying it.
On my travels as a noob (on a different server than my main so I really am a noob with no source of adena)
Well, at lvl 13 I have finally got gear better than the squires and apprentices stuff. I upgraded through the weapons and armour traders, and I got the adena by using the shots that were quested and doing the repeatable quests as many times as I could...and I continue to do them. As many as I can get as well as manoring, I have some good mats that will make me a few thousand anyway (I'm only lvl 13...so it's good for me!). I have met a few people, very nice might I add. I am waiting on a clan invite for an academy...if they don't pan out, I already have an invite for another academy....sooooo to all the NEW people. HAVE FUN! It can be done without cheating :)
Honestly, if I was on trial account and read this first post, I would assume this game was full of cheaters and that I had no chance whatsoever to be competitive unless I cheated. So I would just go find another game to play since it now sounds to me like this game would have to become a job to be competitive and have fun.
The sentiment was in the right place, but the delivery took a wrong turn. "A" for effort.
So many people start by buying 10, 20mil to 'start off' it's ridiculous - and from there they get worse. No, it makes no sense, but they do it regardlessly - because for them, failing to win at the game (i.e. buying things) is more important than actually enjoying it.
I think that gets into RMT, which has some different causes than level botting. The impression given to noobs, which someone has mentioned, is well beyond what an average player can achieve on their own. You see people walking around in top gear for their grade as soon as they're able to use it and spam SS/pots/etc when they hunt, and get the idea that that should be achievable normally, which it is not. Most of the people walking around these days who are low level have either bought adena or are alts of higher level players. Therefore, the expectations of new players when they see this is different from what they can actually manage to do on their own, which worsens the problem. Having the resources to play your character and muck around as you like without worrying if you'll go bankrupt is a powerful lure, and I would argue somewhat different than botting one.
Not that I intend to buy adena, but if I had not been lucky enough to be recruited to Academy fairly early (and had the pig event happen, which was a fair bit of money) I may well have given up on the game. The first time I walked into Giran and looked at the shops I nearly did cancel right then and there, because even 1m adena seems like forever when you've got 200k at most in 20 levels of repeated moneyquesting.
Sure, it's not absolutely necessary to always have the top gear for your level, but there's a complete dirth of mid-range (and therefore cheap) stuff available once you're past what the NPC shops provide. Nobody sells them because there's such a focus on the "best" stuff. I can't even remember the amount of time I spent poking around Giran for "affordable C grade weapon". No, not your +8 duals that go for 40m. Affordable-to-normal-people, at that level.
There is a huge social aspect which you've mentioned in your post, that nobody warns noobs about when they first get the game and read the manual: that to get anywhere without being utterly gimped (and it's nice to say "play the game at your own pace", but if you can't pull your weight in a party due to having crappy gear, you don't get invited to parties and are locked out of many aspects of the game) you more or less have to have the support of a clan or at least a constant group of active friends. You might go "well duh it's an MMO, of course social is important", but the degree varies from game to game and L2 has one of the hardest curves I've seen.
I'll get off my soapbox now, but just - the system is entirely intimidating from a noob's perspective, which is probably why not that many noobs persist in playing the game.
I didn´t know what the term "ebaying" really meant until recently. Why on earth would anyone pay real money for ingame money? I´m sure that others don´t see it my way and others do; but what the heck is the FUN in that? I started off really slowly, and I had trouble making money for a while, but only for a while. Quests, partying and learning to play the market is a part of l2; I feel like I´ve really earned the adena by selling, buying and questing. Later on my clan did help me I admit, so maybe I´m very lucky. However as was stated l2 is not a solo game; and finding the right clan shouldn´t be too hard. May take a while to find a right one..
If people want to get off easy by purchasing adena for real money why play l2 at all? Here I merely repeat what was said earlier by a lot of people: L2 is not easy, it´s not quick and it´s most certainly not meant to be played alone, so I totally fail to comprehend why anyone would buy a readily levelled character thats not yours, that you didn´t put the effort into... whats the fun in that :s seriously ... after all it was levelled by someone else.. I mean sure yeah its easy but l2 wasn´t meant to be easy.. if you want easy go play some happy platform game I´d say :P
And also those automated levelling things are scary... O_o
and get the idea that that should be achievable normally, which it is not.
Oh, it is - since I rejoined in C1 and first broke into D Grade, I have not stopped using blesseds/pots/etc. and having pretty much the gear I wanted. If I ever get off my [censored] and actually get level 61, I should have majestic heavy and robes waiting for me.
and get the idea that that should be achievable normally, which it is not.
Oh, it is - since I rejoined in C1 and first broke into D Grade, I have not stopped using blesseds/pots/etc. and having pretty much the gear I wanted. If I ever get off my [censored] and actually get level 61, I should have majestic heavy and robes waiting for me.
Yep, it is, esepcially in nowadays economy and some key events (pig event hint, and some older ones).
Also when you've managed to get some money, sometimes well under a million, it is more then enough to start inveting in certain ventures, shots beeing the SLOWEST yet the most stable and with no actual risk involved.
I made most of the money i ever had in L2 from playing the market (resell), manor and events. Recently i noticed it is harder to make money from manor, most things i can manor sell for smaller profit then when i first started.
However now since i am set on 2 classes (at least) up to B grade (for one i still have to buy/craft the weapon, but by selling all C grade i have i should be close enough (at least for crafting if i hunt the market) so only some extra effort) i'm concentrating on leveling when i can. I'll just have to start making money before i hit B so i remain comfortable.
People should understand this is NOT an easy game, however it can be very very fun if you play with other people and join a clan fit to your play style and time zone :P.
Don't get discouraged by cheap people that don't appreciate every little honest way of making money and saving up on adena.
IMO your like one of those christain group that runs around and tries to force your religious goals and life on others.
your whole post is no better then them, it's pushy. And rather annoying.
"don't cheet": this saying has been pushed around and around on people since I first joined back in C1, and you people are still doing it. It's fine if you don't want to cheet, stop pushing your believes on others cause it's not right nor fair to you (in your opinion).
Let them sign into the game, and get banned if thats what they want to do, your post serves to do nothing more then what Soverath was saying in his first post.
However where I do agree with you: when a person buys a high lvl acc: they will not know how to play, and people will notice it right off the bat. I can spot a new player from a mile away. As so can any one else thats been around for a while.
1) I still remember my days on CT2 back in C2...those days I'll never forget, but what we got now in the game is nothing not a thing like it was back in C2/3.
2) By the time I've hit lvl 60 I already know my class.. there is little more I can learn for my PW that I don't already know...my point is: I could basically skip 60-74 and not care cause there is only 1 change in that whole time; 1 new skill. so I disagree with you on that one.
3) Is so far from the truth its not even funny.
4) Is true, I agree with that.
5) It's simple...to get ahead...why not pay to let someone sit behind your cleint/ have you in party while you go to the store/ work/ club/ night out with the SO/ ETC; many more reasons.
6) Clicking the "I agree" doesn't mean you really agree...personally: I don't, but thats not doing to stop me from clicking that icon now is it?
7) Most people now adays don't care if you bot, or get botted. Most don't even bother to submit petitions any more cause they have already seen how that system isn't working like it should!
8) The bots are the fault of the Dev.'s; not the players. L2 market Will not survive with out the farmers! Again you show how naive you are about free market, and L2 game machainic's.
Case in point: I just made friends with a farmer last night, he was up all night farming a certain rec that only drops in 1 place, I pmed him this morning asking if he's gotten any, he pmed back "yes, 1", I was like cool let me buy it from you. he's total time farming that area was well over 12 hours!
A normal group is lucky to last 2 hours, if your running up to ToI 7 from 1 that will will take just 20 minutes to run up to floor 5, what if you're going to the heart of dvc, thats easily 1+ hour run in.
You're lucky as a hardcore player to get people to stay at their PC long enough to farm for 2 hours. much less 12 hours none stop!
If a Farmer can only get 1 rec of two rec's I asked for, in over 12 hours. then you have no clue how important the bot's/farmers are to L2 market.
Then again your max chr is what 56? have you managed a 61+ toon in A grade with all of your alts and rerolls? for someone that parades around the boards like you have a clue. You show alot of ignorance!
Instead of your post as it is now, rewrite it. or delete it. it is in no way helpful to new players, it's more vindictive!
Note: at no time am I declaring that I bot, or ebay in my post or statements here-in. BTW I'm not trying to be a butt-head, only to show his attitude isn't appreciated by alot of people...most of which don't post on official forums.
I'm really starting to get tired of hearing the word "cheating."
Just because you (in general) think it's cheating doesn't mean other people believe it to be so.
Sony is a good example. they offer to sell "gold" to players.
I think you guys need to come up with another method for naming convention. Cause "cheating" is only in the eye of the beholder.
What you (in general) might consider to be cheating someone else things of it as getting by, surviving, or getting ahead. Cause one person (company in this manner) declares it as "cheating" everyone else has to jump on the band wagon.
The whole holy crusade needs to stop, and people need to jump off their "high horses," steep back into reality imo.
I'm really starting to get tired of hearing the word "cheating."
Just because you (in general) think it's cheating doesn't mean other people believe it to be so.
Breaking the game rules (EULA, Rules of Conduct) in order to gain an advantage over other players is cheating.
Sony is a good example. they offer to sell "gold" to players.
Breaking the game rules (EULA, Rules of Conduct) in order to gain an advantage over other players is cheating.
EXP: Well I have top A grade weapon, and you don't; that means I cheated? I'm 76 and started 4 months ago, your 65 and started 2 years ago; that means I cheated?
the word "cheat" is over used on these boards. it's like a toxic fume that you have to breath in and out every day... and quite frankly I'm tired of breathing it in!
Wow do you live in front of your comp 24/7 - that's some impressive levelling.
Then again your max chr is what 56? have you managed a 61+ toon in A grade with all of your alts and rerolls? for someone that parades around the boards like you have a clue. You show alot of ignorance!
Breaking the game rules (EULA, Rules of Conduct) in order to gain an advantage over other players is cheating.
EXP: Well I have top A grade weapon, and you don't; that means I cheated? I'm 76 and started 4 months ago, your 65 and started 2 years ago; that means I cheated?
the word "cheat" is over used on these boards. it's like a toxic fume that you have to breath in and out every day... and quite frankly I'm tired of breathing it in!
Well my friend. If you are lvl 76 full A grade and all in 4 months I WILL say you cheated. I would say you have at LEAST done some of the following. Ebayed, wall licked and or broken EULA with a 3rd party program useage.
I have played L2 for18 months and got to where I am now and that included 6 months off work ill where I more or less played for 18 hours per day for that period.
Yes I had 1 Million Adena given to me by a friend to start up but other than that nothing. I have had Clan help for S Grade now but, lvl 1-76 in 4 months aint hapening using legit means unless you NEVER sleep and if you turn around and say you are your a bigger fool than I already think you are.........
I think you guys need to come up with another method for naming convention. Cause "cheating" is only in the eye of the beholder.
So if you dont see the EULA as a set of rules and don't see a third party program as cheating then it is ok in your eyes?
Sonshine, you are a fool and an idiot and seriously deluded if you think you can kid yourself into thinking that. You may get away with it in a game but if you use that sort of attitude in RL then I am afraid you will take one mighty fall....
"don't cheet": this saying has been pushed around and around on people since I first joined back in C1, and you people are still doing it. It's fine if you don't want to cheet, stop pushing your believes on others cause it's not right nor fair to you (in your opinion).
The problem is that other people cheating actually changes things for everyone else as well. It's not a "to each his own, doesn't bother anyone else, etc" situation. It effects everyone.
Honestly, it makes very little sense for you to be so disturbed by people growing tired of seeing cheaters. It only comes across as you being personally offended, in which case the next logical assumption is......
no, I went to school last night came home, read some stuff online that I wanted to catch up on.
then got in game and started to work on various things like...crafting my dc set. which was why I had pmed him.
My point is that you can't expect players to beable to sit in front of their computers for 24/7. which is what the drop table says you have to do if you want a chance to get that item(s) that you want/need.
what rumpunch has shown over the last 2 years is the same thing over and over again: I hate bot's, and "cheaters." Which I believe is more because he knows he can't compete with them, so it makes him emo. For that reason he comes here with this very pushy post practically screeming at us why L2 is bad, and what he assumes that alot of new players buy their acc's from some previous player (which is true I knew alot of A-holes on Erica that acc Buy).
1-76 is possible in 4 months. You would have to live in front of the computer, but it is possible. I've seen it done by a former cheater who was banned originally, signed up again and refused to cheat in any way. His friends helped him out with the adena portion and some gear, because well, they could. But to say he cheated because he's up there, is not really accurate. For a casual gamer playing a couple days a week only for a couple hours, no, not a totally realistic goal. But someone who has holidays from work say, and chose sit in front of the computer instead of go outside...definately possible. If he said he did it in one month, ok then yes, I'd have to agree that some form of cheating must have happened...but 1-76 in 4 months, I would say is accurate legitimately. You have to remember that some people get more help than others, chances are, he got a good clan early oh who helped a lot.
Also, levels themselves are not the issue for someone who plays at least a few hours every day considering they are a few hours of intense partying.
And also considering equip is not really an issue (the clan wants you high lvl and is willing to invest in you ;)) it is very achievable...
I know that with a good party you make over 5 percent in under 2 hours between 77 and 78 (i was watching a friend of mine grind away with his clan mates, him beeing a SE, back in C4), even more... What does that tell us ?
Sooo, if you're invovled and have people to play with, and you don't have to worry about getting gear.... lvl 76 in 4 months is more then .. achievable.
Breaking the game rules (EULA, Rules of Conduct) in order to gain an advantage over other players is cheating.
EXP: Well I have top A grade weapon, and you don't; that means I cheated? I'm 76 and started 4 months ago, your 65 and started 2 years ago; that means I cheated?
Then have you ever broken them in order to get your top A or lvl 76 faster than others? If the answer to that question is "yes", that means you cheated.
And it seems not only do you miss my point in my post but you also miss the whole point to the game.
If it was meant to have botters/Ebayers/Adena Sellers then the Eula wouldn't exist and the whole concept of the game would be different.
It isn't meant to be 'easy'.
The sad fact is that far to many people come into this game and have no patience to play it so go for the easy way - buy accounts, adena and get power levelled. They sit at their computer crying at the fact that they can't compete with the 'big boys' in game. But that is the point - you work hard so you can compete.
If someone's attitude is that it should be 'ok' to buy accounts, Adena etc then go play another game. If they appear in game one day with a level 70+ toon which they cannot play all that's achieved is making themselves look an idiot. Maybe that toon is amazing in PVP - big deal - you have to be able to play it first!
What stands true is this: whoever breaks the EULA and rules of conduct CHEATS, even if you cast morality aside, anything that breaks the SET rules is CHEATING.
One can not be anymore clear then this.
I wasn't saying I did it. I have heard of it happening.
there is a reason I put "EXP" in front of my hypotheses. as in "example."
I'm not deluded. I just happen to be a passisific.. most of you are more aggressive.
there was a time when I hated "cheaters", bots, and the likes...but as time goes on, and NC$soft does nothing to change things. Then you take a hard look at the economy (go on I dare you to take a class in economy, then apply it to L2).
it is simple to see why bots are needed. another EXP:
(note this is take from a post in bartz section)
Has the attitude in this game changed to pro-bot?
yes: at lest for me. and lots of people I see.
quite frankly with the way NC$oft mistreats the Economy with low drops, causes the need for more farmers to fill the demand that the economy, and the player base needs.
Cause of this high demand/ low supply normal players just simply can't stay up long enough to farm whats needed.
Thats where the 24/7 farmer groups come into play. They supply our demand; and those starts the never ending cycle!
Only way to fix this, is for NC$soft to fix the 52+ drop/spoil tables, make dwarfs fun to play, and to mass ban the current bots.
Quite frankly as long as the bots leave when I want a room then it's all good let them do what they do. I don't feel I should change my opinion about them TILL NC$soft decides to fix whats truly broken (noted above).
Thensuro wrote:
QFT.
Real farmers always try to avoid petitions and reports by giving you the time you need to level in a particular room. Players who are running their own bot trains for their own profits are usually quick to log in high level botted up toons to come PK you.
agan all you see is the one sidedness of omg you ebayed it's so wrong lalalalala.
rather then the, well I can't craft d/c light set cause no on parties ever in DVC, or I can't craft top grade weapon cause dino island is too hard to put together a few parties to try to do something for the community.
you wander why so many people ebay or bot?
cause perhaps NC$oft-Kr don't understand that we need a game that fits to the NA/euro market so people can compete. you'r blaming me for having confilting idea's with what you think is wright or wrong, based off what some people half way accross the world thing is best for them, and not whats best for us.
People play L2 for 2 main reasons: good (if not great) community; high lvl pvp system to play. Then a few smaller reasons; graphics, waiting for better game, etc..
"Cheating" is just a word, one that I think is over played on L2 forums, in a rather large sum!
edit to add: sorry I want to debate more, but I'm extremely tired and will take a nap now...later all....
If you were supposed to get in game assets for RL money, this game would have a cash shop.
You can try to justify yourself all you like - a game has rules, and breaking them is cheating. What would you say if someone in football tackled someone to the ground and then said 'well, it's all right if I do this in wrestling'?
This is this game. It has rules. You break them to get an advantage, you cheat. People play L2, among other things, because it's a clan heavy progress game - that's what really is at the core of the game if you look at the basic ruleset. And what an awesome game it could have been without cheating *******. ^_^
PS: I'm not level 61 because I've been playing games with better gameplay while just having fun making money on the market (I'm almost always logged into one or two of my town dwarves). Whether I'm low level or not, as is constantly and impressively demonstrated to me by high levels, has nothing to do with how much I know about the game, except for knowledge of the 76+ hunting spots.
Yes a game has rules, and yes breaking them is cheating.
But first, i will never say "ooooh you cheated you will burn in hell for all eternity and i'm never gonna talk to you ever again", if people wanna cheat, i really dont care, if they have fun that way good for them, they're not ruining my fun (mainly because i play the game in a different way than most of them do :p)
But the real point is, when you create a very competitive game where it's not only possible, but also very easy to cheat (because you can buy everything with virtual currency, from gear to Skill Points), what would you expect ?
You dont get anything by cheating in a table-top RPG because you're only here to have an evening of fun with 4 or 5 of your friends, but in a heavy-PvP MMO where you compete against thousands of people you barely know, that's a different story...
And to add to it, when the game is clearly designed to make anything a bit powerful almost impossible to get for a normal day-working, night-sleeping, life-having human being, you're just encouraging ppl to cheat !
So, yes a game has rules, but when it's so easy and so encouraging to break them, maybe those rules are not the best ones around.
I think the devs knew from the start that a lot of ppl would cheat, but they didnt really care, and neither do i...
What's the point of "competing" if you're going to cheat?
That's only competing with your visa - and if you want to do that, then the simple solution is to buy a big car.
Interesting you say that. There is an article in the latest Games for Windows that talks about cheating:
Bah.... of course I left it at work. However, it discusses different types of players as well as different types of "cheaters".
Part of it is that your statement is biased as you are trying to understand something based on your values.
A person who takes advantage of botting or power-leveling is not playing for the same reasons that you are. They have honed in on what they want and have determined that one or the other (or both) will get them to their goal.
A person who wants to spend their time nurturing (for lack of a better word) their character is investing in a different type of gameplay than someone who is purchasing money or botting. You both might value aspects of the game but not all aspects.
People who purchase money don't value the idea of making money and if it holds them back from their goal (looking cool with best gear, winning at pvp because of great gear, etc) then they will do what they can to bypass that aspect of the game.
Players who want to pvp quite a bit but hate raiding or PvE might resort to botting so they can bypass long grind sessions to not only level but to also achieve higher lvls.
I don't think they look at it as "competing" but "can I best you given what I have at my disposal.
Let me ask again: What's the point of winning at PvP in a game where little to no skill is involved in it, when you didn't get the thing that's making you win yourself?
If a game like CS had a grind, I'd completely understand PvPers wanting to buy past it. But as it is in L2, all you buy are bragging rights for... yeah, buying bragging rights. Because that's all there is to brag about.
It's the same as buying a book in a store and considering yourself a great writer for not even having read it properly but just prancing around with it.
Let me ask again: What's the point of winning at PvP in a game where little to no skill is involved in it, when you didn't get the thing that's making you win yourself?
If a game like CS had a grind, I'd completely understand PvPers wanting to buy past it. But as it is in L2, all you buy are bragging rights for... yeah, buying bragging rights. Because that's all there is to brag about.
It's the same as buying a book in a store and considering yourself a great writer for not even having read it properly but just prancing around with it.
Again, I think you are missing the point because you are evaluating from a point of view that is your own.
They do it. Because of this they have reasons and I presume they enjoy it.
Whether or not you understand those reasons or agree with them is not important to them.
I know that they do it because they like it, that much is obvious. I still don't get how someone can derive satisfaction out of it - as I said earlier: I do not condone 'cheating' in real life either, but there, at least, it makes perfect sense to try. Or maybe in a sport where you can win money.
Trying to tell players how to play now this far along. is.... welll.....pointless unless rules are enforced.
I'd agree with this.
the thing is no one should be able to tell someone else how they should or shouldn't play this game. You can recommend, "I think the is the best way cause; XX reason".
Like wise if I want to buy in game assets cause thats how I want to play the game, then no one should be able to tell me no, cause that the way I want to play.
NC$oft barely enforces their own rules, basically to the minimum. So why should we lesion to them, if they wont enforce their own rules. Not to point figures, but I wouldn't be surprised to hear that NC$oft staff has/does buy game currency.
Trying to act like you're somehow in the right for cheating is, at best, pathetic. Saying 'I don't want to wear NM because it's ugly' and 'I don't want to play by the rules of this game' are two things altogether.
No, nobody will actually stop cheating just because someone else said so - but god do I wish they would just go ahead and start consequently banning buyers, both of adena and accounts.
You people don't even seem to realise what you've done to the game.
NC$oft barely enforces their own rules, basically to the minimum. So why should we lesion to them, if they wont enforce their own rules.
Exactly, and they do that because it would be near to impossible to enforce those rules, or half of the playerbase would leave...
(but i dont get your "$" instead of "S" for NCSoft, like some ppl do mith Microsoft, does that mean that NCSoft is a company that wanna make money ? Sure they wanna make money, how else do you think a company could survive ? And for the record i think that NCSoft is a great MMO company even if i disagree on some points in one of their games...)
Not to point figures, but I wouldn't be surprised to hear that NC$oft staff has/does buy game currency.
Of course they do !
Remember that interview with Mr Garriott a while ago ? :p
You people don't even seem to realise what you've done to the game.
YEAH YOU PPL!
He he :D
Maline this attitude gets you nowhere, because those ppl absolutely dont care what you may think of them (just like i do when you get mad at me for no reason :p)
You think that cheating in a competitive game is no fun, but obviously they're thinking the exact opposite, and given human nature i can really understand their point of view, besides if they have fun that way, who cares ?
If ppl are taking advantage of a flawed system, dont blame the ppl, blame the system.
If ppl are taking advantage of a flawed system, dont blame the ppl, blame the system.
The point is that it's not "advantage". It's playing the wrong game and screwing yourself out of a good part of the game you happened to play.
lol right. so by buying enough money to out fit you in your next set of gear that you would other wise never be able to afford with out the "out sourcing" is wrong.
Whats wrong my dear is that they didn't develop the game better so you wouldn't need to. What I mean is this:
A new drop table.
Allow people to farm their up coming grade before they even get to that grade. (RFonline did that, worked great)
Fix spoil tables; I shouldn't even have to comment here having no upper grade mats for spoil was just stupid, having such a low spoil rate is stupid.
There is alot more that needs to be done to fix this game. which they need to do along before they (NC$oft) can get players to change their mind.
Another problem if you will, is that NC$oft forces most pvp to be top lvl (76+), cause of the skills you get at those lvls. this is causing for players that play the game, that are in wars, that openly pvp only invite people who meet basic statards.
Given this people are more willing to spend RL cash for game cash so they can reach top lvl and get into all of the pvp. thats a huge mind set for alot of people mel. and you need to understand that. Maybe you don't mind sitting in town all day making cash but some others would rather be out grinding then hanging around town.
Personally I like the economy. it's fun, and I learned a lot of RL issues about how economy's work and function off this games economy system.
PS: grazzet. reason for $ is cause NC$oft cares more about making their money then actually fixing the problems at hand.
If ppl are taking advantage of a flawed system, dont blame the ppl, blame the system.
The point is that it's not "advantage". It's playing the wrong game and screwing yourself out of a good part of the game you happened to play.
lol right. so by buying enough money to out fit you in your next set of gear that you would other wise never be able to afford with out the "out sourcing" is wrong.
The "omg I couldn't afford my gear if I wasn't cheating" mentality is indeed wrong. You could. Unless we are speaking about farmed boss jewels.
Whats wrong my dear is that they didn't develop the game better so you wouldn't need to.
Dunno about you, but I don't need to.
Allow people to farm their up coming grade before they even get to that grade. (RFonline did that, worked great)
Is RFonline a clan-based MMO?
Fix spoil tables; I shouldn't even have to comment here having no upper grade mats for spoil was just stupid, having such a low spoil rate is stupid.
Which mats can't you get?
Another problem if you will, is that NC$oft forces most pvp to be top lvl (76+), cause of the skills you get at those lvls. this is causing for players that play the game, that are in wars, that openly pvp only invite people who meet basic statards.
Dunno about your server, but on Hinde I see (and take part in) lvl 60+ PvPs as well.
Given this people are more willing to spend RL cash for game cash so they can reach top lvl and get into all of the pvp.
If you only want "all of the top lvl pvp", you are playing the wrong game.
Many of the posts on here talk about a one sided argument and only seeing the game from a 'cheating' perspective. I think that's actually unfair because implies no understanding of both view points.
There are a lot of people who play L2 and play it as it is meant to be - create character, grind, play markets, join clan, etc etc sub, noble wayhey top of the class, playing with the big boys and girls.
Then there are those that also 'play' the game in the sense of they own a character, join in the seiges, PVP, belong to a clan but didn't put any actual work into the character they own. They are still playing but by a totally different way to player A.
They are also - no matter what anyone argues - breaking EULA rules whether or not some players consider the rules to be useless and that it is perfectly acceptable to break them. In their eyes it is a case of "I want a top level player, I want top level gear and I want it now - how much?" That to those players is acceptable.
To player A not only is it unacceptable (because of the rules and because they would prefer people play the game as it's meant to be) but it also difficult to understand why. There is of course in some areas a small amount of, I suppose, 'jealousy' because their idea of right and wrong prevents them from using rl money to purchase items for a game and it seems unfair that they would spend maybe years getting a character to subbed class when someone else comes in who has been in game 1 day with a 76/76/76 top everything +++++ Adena who chose to buy their character.
My own personal point of view is that I don't understand why anyone would buy a character because you miss so much of the game in doing so. Having struggled to purchase items myself I can understand why people purchase things from outside the game but to me it's like playing Monopoly and taking all the money from the bank before you start - what's the point?
A part of my hope in starting this thread was that potential users of 'the service which spams emails in game' would be dissuaded from using that service. I hope that they get few customers that they go out of business.
I do believe that breaking the EULA is cheating and that all the excuses for breaking it are just that, excuses for cheating.
I am encouraged at the number of like minded people who have posted in this thread. You are the salt of the earth, your influence for what is right and honorable helps not only this great game but also everyone who reads and considers your ideas.
It's playing the wrong game and screwing yourself out of a good part of the game you happened to play.
No, no, and no (and no :p)
To them, they're playing the exact right game they wanna play and they're having fun doing so (at least i believe so, because if anyone spends RL money on a game that's no fun to them then something's really wrong with those ppl :))
Like Madders said, it's just a difference in point of views, you think you're playing the right game for you and they think they're playing the right game for them.
The only real acceptable argument IMO is : do they take away some of your fun while having theirs ?
To me, that doesnt change a thing, bots leave the rooms when i want them, bots provide the needed mats when i need them, so i really couldnt care less.
Now, if they're taking away some of your playing fun, please explain :p
it's like playing Monopoly and taking all the money from the bank before you start - what's the point?
It's not exactly like that.
When you play Monopoly, it's like my table-top exemple, you're playing it only to have an evening of fun with 4 or 5 of your friends that you see face to face, before or after having a good diner with them, and so on...
Now, try to create a Competitive Monopoly Online with hundreds of thousands of people playing it and let's see if noone tries to cheat :)
It's playing the wrong game and screwing yourself out of a good part of the game you happened to play.
No, no, and no (and no :p)
To them, they're playing the exact right game they wanna play and they're having fun doing so (at least i believe so, because if anyone spends RL money on a game that's no fun to them then something's really wrong with those ppl :))
Like Madders said, it's just a difference in point of views, you think you're playing the right game for you and they think they're playing the right game for them.
But why don't they play a game which has better PvP content?...
The only real acceptable argument IMO is : do they take away some of your fun while having theirs ?
... and the only meaningful answer I can find is "to have easier ways to screw others".
To me, that doesnt change a thing, bots leave the rooms when i want them, bots provide the needed mats when i need them, so i really couldnt care less.
Now, if they're taking away some of your playing fun, please explain :p
I don't give a **** about farmers' bots. Their customers are what worries me. I don't like seeing servers' top alliances dominated by IRL cheaters and pwnz0r wannabes.
I do believe that breaking the EULA is cheating and that all the excuses for breaking it are just that, excuses for cheating.
Yeah, but they dont care the first thing about that, and i'm not sure they even feel like they're cheating, because of what i said about the design of the rules, so all of this is completely pointless when we are talking about "how to stop them" !
There's no stopping it, there's only what NCSoft does, which is ban them from time to time, but not too many and not too often otherwise the majority of the playerbase would leave ;)
I am encouraged at the number of like minded people who have posted in this thread. You are the salt of the earth, your influence for what is right and honorable helps not only this great game but also everyone who reads and considers your ideas.
Well, even if i dont completely disagree with you here, still i wouldnt judge a real person on the actions he/she takes in a computer game, a game is just that... a game.
JKoster once said that he reported a RL friend to the GMs because he was found out cheating, it's his right to do so of course, but i personnaly never would do that, i'll always put RL first and foremost over a computer game...
So if someone said
You can do 3 years to get your bachelors degree, costing you $1000 over that space of time
Or
I can **** the system of the university and make you graduate in the next graduation next week for $700
what would you do?
You cannot (IMO) compare a game to RL...
In real life, if you dont spend those 3 years learning things, yes you will have your small sheet of paper that says that you have a degree, but the first day you'll start working everyone will see that you dont know a **** thing about anything and you'll be fired and probably reported to some organization...
But this isnt real life, this is a game, where you can plug in and out whenever you want, change your characters, change servers, even quit the game if you're fed up with it, so, to me, these are really 2 different things...
The only real acceptable argument IMO is : do they take away some of your fun while having theirs ?
... and the only meaningful answer I can find is "to have easier ways to screw others".
So, they're taking away some of your fun because they have an easier access to high levels than you, they have better gear that they didnt really worked for, and so on ?
Someone talked about jealousy at one point in this thread, dont you think there's a part of it maybe ? :)
it's like playing Monopoly and taking all the money from the bank before you start - what's the point?
It's not exactly like that.
When you play Monopoly, it's like my table-top exemple, you're playing it only to have an evening of fun with 4 or 5 of your friends that you see face to face, before or after having a good diner with them, and so on...
Now, try to create a Competitive Monopoly Online with hundreds of thousands of people playing it and let's see if noone tries to cheat :)
For what I am trying to say it is exactly like that. If you play this game from scratch without buying a high level character you get the experience of learning. You see all the lower level areas, have the thrill of levelling up and having new skills, saving Adena until the proud moment you can actually afford the armor you've waited months for, the first time you get to join a seige because you're actually high enough to join in now etc etc. Buying a character stops all that because you can't redo what has already been done for you.
It's the same with the Monopoly example. If you play correctly you have the thrill of buying properties, stopping other players from buying full sets, buying homes, hotels etc. If you take all the money from the bank before you start you may as well just pick up all the property cards and dump hotels on everything before you throw the dice.
It's kinda hard for me to answer that, because it took me almost 2 years to get two characters to lv47 and lv51, so i know about having fun at low levels, otherwise i would have switched to another game a while ago :D
So, of course to me there's no point, but what i'm trying to say is, for some ppl it's fun to play at low levels and discover the world of Aden, but to some other ppl the fun is only at Castle Sieges and heavy PvP, and they dont wanna wait 2 or 3 years before being able to play those parts of the game, so they "shorten" the process :p
And as long as those ppl dont ruin my fun while doing so, why should i care ?
So, they're taking away some of your fun because they have an easier access to high levels than you, they have better gear that they didnt really worked for, and so on ?
No.
Because they trashtalk in hero chat.
Because they fiddle with oly points and then hero zerg the sieges.
Because they don't care about their PvP expenses.
Because they make lowbie PvP less fun.
Because they have already destroyed some servers with their attempts to dominate everywhere.
In short, because the servers' toplevel culture is formed by scums.
You'll be surprised how MANY people come from unofficial servers... and.... not wanting to start going thru all the lower levels and equipement gathering they did on those **** unoff servers they ebay and afklevel (lol..).
They reached a very high subclassed highly geared and don't want (understandable) to go thru the same process all over again. They're just "returning" themselves to what they were there.
I saw this happen believe me, and while it's understandable from this point of view, it's not understandable why NCSoft allows those unoff servers to exist...
If they weren't fooled by the unoff servers in the first place, they would have been a lot less prone to cheating when joining up with the real servers.
Some might say that unoff servers are preferred by many due to their more "casual nature", because you can achive alot more in less time (even an increased rat of 3-4 is huge and I'm sure it feels), however it's just a foolish thing not to say illegal and prone to have everything you played for gone in a blink of an eye.
This is just a thought, about origins of people that are not really newbs at this game but more of newbs on the official servers.
Edit: Some of the names that fill the hero chat come from there, where they once ruled the lands... Hehe, you know who you are :). I'm not accusing them of anything persay... Maybe.. maybe not :o
let em cheat. its easier to kill the lvl 80 peeps that dont know what they are doing than to kill a lvl 74 that knows his toon inside out.
let em buy adenas, when they discover they are promoting bots by buying adenas they will quit for shame.
let them bot. when they cant level cause of PK, it becomes a matter of "i will sooooooo get you for this" and some good drama comes of it.
let em cheat. the best way for police to stop gang violence is to promote it. then you take down the last man standing.
however if you are all too lazy to PK/report every suspected botter, ebayer, etc, then IMO you should stop complaining.
nice welcome tho, Rum. an ounce of prevention is indeed worth the pound of cure. just depends what youre trying to cure. imo this was not the way to advocate fair play - nonetheless for what you did do, its all good.
cheating in any game is a simple decision - do you or do you NOT want to get to the end and finish? in L2 as with any MMOG there is no end, nor finish. only the last level and best gear. the faster you get there, the easier time (you would think) it would be to kill everyone else still on that path.
some of us choose to think and play outside the MMOG normal, tho. instead of playing the game to the end and just screwin around after that, some peeps like myself have chosen to STOP at lvl x. at that level we start screwin around. some of us end up with some extra cash and start an alt in good gear. then when pplz ask us how long weve been playing we say since beta, and they laugh.
end game is what you make it. the true lvl 80 end game of L2 is unreachable in a short enough time. those that want to play that type of end game bad enough will cheat to get there. plain and simple. make your end game something you CAN reach in a reasonable time and you never see nor feel the need to cheat, nor do you care about those that are passing you and cheating.
to tie this back into my original points, it really makes a difference at what level your Uberness comes into play. the disease is lvl 80 in S80. the cure is to put the Uber threshold lower. in essence to nerf the game. the harder it is to reach the end of the game, the more ppl will cheat to get there. north american culture - i want my x on a silver platter and i want it NOW. and youre going to give it to me for free.
lower your expectations. all ill say. not advocating cheating, advocating the chill-out message of relaxed grinding.
nice welcome tho, Rum. an ounce of prevention is indeed worth the pound of cure. just depends what youre trying to cure. imo this was not the way to advocate fair play - nonetheless for what you did do, its all good.
Unfortunately that's not a particularly "welcoming" message. I understand the sentiment, but it seems to imply we're all potential cheaters, regardless of how we intend to play.
I mentioned getting into an altercation with some guy who accused me of botting, in another thread. Normally I'm pretty polite to people, but in that case I completely blew up at him. Because I was grinding away like a good little monkey, putting up with all the annoyances of being low level/poor/etc, and I definitely did not appreciate being accused out of the blue with no more evidence than "because I thought so". This sort of assumed-guilty-until-proven-innocent attitude does not encourage new players to stay.
Bottom line: those of us who don't intend to bot don't need to be preached at. The people who are botting aren't going to be deterred by social disapproval.
but the first day you'll start working everyone will see that you dont know a **** thing about anything
Naive is all I can say. Most of the other students entering university along with me know more about computers than I do - and some of them already dropped out.
Recently, a doctor was dishonourably discharged here in Germany because all of her credentials (not sure this is the right word) were fake ... but she had been appreciated as a competent researcher and practicioner by her colleagues.
The difference between IRL and this game is that it gets you ahead in a meaningful way if you cheat IRL. In this game, all it does is make you bother the people who are really playing, because, as pointed out m any times, this game is a competition of patience after all... and by skipping ahead on the patience part and joining the flex of 'who had more patience', you're screwing things up for all involved (including yourself, look at all the people crying about nobody wanting to PvP them).
I can't believe people are flaming a post that is trying to stop people from cheating before they start...his intentions are noble! A for Effort!
his intentions were noble, but his post was far short of that.
simply put, this game is not made for the "give me uberness now" players which are all coming from wow and GW etc. to this end these players cheat. well, as stated by Rum they need to NOT cheat. except that after getting to lvl 25-30 and seeing NOBODY not to mention those who they did see picking on them, calling them bots and generally being a nuisance, it really begs the question why NOT cheat? games like wow and GW offer a degree of relief from nuisance players by offering instances, fast levelling, and NPC's that will help you level, not to mention numerous highly lucrative quests. this game offers FAR SHORT of that, giving players virtually NO comparative help with grinding. the quests do not multiply EXP, the drops offer no inherently high value at any level, and herbs do nothing but help melee toons level faster in zones of shoddy exp mobs.
all signs point to cheat for new players coming from other MMO's and dare i say rightly so. if Ornery and Omega seriously want to market L2 to the general MMO base of wow and competing games, it will REQUIRE the game to be scaled back to comparative ease of play.
this is to say two things: rumpunch was not coming from the correct perspective by preaching at players about not cheating; and playing lineage2 to competitive levels requires hardcoreness that surpasses the requirements of other games. in and of itself this is not a bad thing, but goes against the psyche of the typical gamer.
i say rumpunch comes from the wrong perspective because his post is trying to show why most players that care to play fair cannot sit idly by watching cheaters climb the ranks. its true except that without cheating there would be no uberness. and without uberness there would be no game. why is it you see the legit players working so hard to get the next level and sweating over every death? because uberness is the incentive to get the S grade/hero. fair play involves no uberness. wheres the fun in that?
as it is, ive seen players claim it takes 4-6 months of 12hr per day grinding to get S grade. well it takes 8 months when youre working for every adena to gear yourself for those levels and legitly playing the game. who plays for 12 hrs a day anyway? not the players coming from GW and WOW. in those games even the casual gamer can have high level fun in a short amount of time requireing minimal effort. for the 5 weeks a casual 1hr per day WoWer can get his lvl 70, he would gain lvl 30 in L2. and have shoddy cheap mismatched gear. likely he wouldnt know anyone either.
this ultimately makes it VERY hard to keep a LARGE base of legit easygoing gamers. a SMALL base of said gamers is the existing economy. the LARGE base of legit gamers have mostly cheated to get high level after seeing the casual grind fail miserably.
preaching you SHOULDNT cheat was not the way to deter it. you SHOULDNT take the game in the S-grade-or-nonfactor way. there are two problems with this tho. as i said before the NA culture is a grabby one. gimme my Ferrarri, miami mansion and my cottage in Vegas, and put it all on my credit card it isnt necessary to have those items, just as it isnt necessary to be S grade or nonfactor in L2. it helps, but it isnt necessary. currently it IS necessary, but thats another topic altogether. the second problem with telling people they shouldnt take the "uber or nothing" stance is it goes against everything that every game has ever offered. the higher you get, the more uber you should become. its the reward of every game. why shouldnt people go big? indeed, there is no reason NOT to. the only problem with going big in this game is it is (as stated before) a game of patience and perseverance. bypass that and presto, instant fun.
so what should you tell people? well, cheating is against the rules.
The difference between IRL and this game is that it gets you ahead in a meaningful way if you cheat IRL. In this game, all it does is make you bother the people who are really playing, because, as pointed out m any times, this game is a competition of patience after all... and by skipping ahead on the patience part and joining the flex of 'who had more patience', you're screwing things up for all involved
I still dont get how...
Really, honestly, they're not screwing anything for me, if i see a toon at lv1 one day and then i see it at lv50 the next week, i really wouldnt care at all, and i dont see how it's "screwing things" for anyone...
They wanna level faster than me and have better gear than me ? Let them do that, why should i care ?
Like JKoster once said "you play your game, i play mine"...
his intentions were noble, but his post was far short of that.
[...]
so what should you tell people? well, cheating is against the rules.
thats about all you CAN tell someone.
Really, honestly, they're not screwing anything for me, if i see a toon at lv1 one day and then i see it at lv50 the next week, i really wouldnt care at all, and i dont see how it's "screwing things" for anyone...
Oh I don't know - can you afford your B Grade? Can you get pick up groups? Can you join PvP without having a main come down on you and pwn you? Can you be sure that whichever clan you join, they will be co-operating on gear and level progress?
Right, has no impact whatsoever on you.
Cheaters broke this game, there's really no denying that.
Ok try looking at this scenario - and it is just that.
Player A has been in game a year or so, reached level 60, plays regularly. They belong to an average level clan, nice range of players - Academy through to subbed class - have a small but decent clan hall, attend seiges, PVP and currently own Dion Castle. Player A is quite content with the game play.
Player B comes into game after having bought a 76/76/76 player which come complete with a billion or so Adena and several 78+ buffers. Player B has several friends who also want to have high level characters so buy them also however they don't come with all the gear. Player B purchases this for them plus numerous other items as his aim is to create a clan of all top players and basically take over the server. Player B disappears for a month or so and re emerges with ++ players at top level which are 'loaned' to friends and so this clan is evolved.
Player A's game play is now disrupted by the fact that this 'new' clan is basically wiping most other players out at regular intervals because Player A cannot complete with Player B's credit card. Also because of the fact that Player B can afford to buy almost anything they want, the market is now disrupted also.
This is just because Player B chose not to abide by the rules.
Now admittedly my scenario is exceptional but I think you can see where I am coming from. Buying accounts and Adena can have a bigger affect than is first noticed.
Now admittedly my scenario is exceptional but I think you can see where I am coming from. Buying accounts and Adena can have a bigger affect than is first noticed.
Ok, i see what you mean, but that wasnt really my point.
Your scenario would mean something if the game was brand new and not already rotten by all the cheaters.
My point was about the state of the game as it is, with high-lv Alliances composed (probably) of 80% of cheaters. So, at very-high levels, it's mostly cheaters against cheaters, but, once again, i really dont care, they do their business and i do mine.
Now, if you wanna make me say that this game could have been an excellent game, yes, sure, but it's way too late now, so it's only a great game, in which we have to live with all the cheaters, which i do perfectly fine and that's why they dont bother me that much :p
I totally accept that, I'm much the same in that they are there and I can't change that so I work around it and play my way.
Having said that surely it is better to try and deter potential new players from cheating than saying nothing because it already exists so what difference can one more make.
As you say it is each to their own game but I do believe that those of us that wish the game is how it was meant to be should try and keep the newbies going in the right direction - a bit like raising kids :p
Well here's the thing...I happen to know quite a few people in the clan that is pretty well dominating Kain atm who did Cheat. They botted up to 76/76 and they pk all the people who want Baium unless they pay up. Now, here lies the problem...due to their greed, people are quitting. Real legitimate players. I would have quit if I had to pay, luckily I knew someone. But it's really sad to see people that I have known since I started playing quitting because some 17 year old owns aden and thinks he's king [censored] because he's high lvl in an online game. I play for fun, people like that ruin my fun when I get pmms "50 mil and you can have Baium" excuuuuse me? Or when you're in a room in a cat and here comes the same rtard only on his bot lord toon training you or pking you to get your room. Or the farmer clan who is doing all the raids, getting all the good mats and recs because their bot group goes 24/7 except for the few hours during maintenance, then they sell the crafted items or the recs and mats for rediculous prices that really make some people seriously consider e-baying in turn buying adena from these same farmers who are getting rich quick off Lineage2 in game and in RL...
So yeah, I'd say the cheaters have impacted gameplay huge, market too, and the overall general conduct of the players of lineage2. It doesn't mean we all cheat, but there sure are a lot of us that do.
My favorite, is when you see the no name person that no one seems to remember seeing EVER suddenly a HERO...seriously
Well here's the thing...I happen to know quite a few people in the clan that is pretty well dominating Kain atm who did Cheat. They botted up to 76/76 and they pk all the people who want Baium unless they pay up. Now, here lies the problem...due to their greed, people are quitting.
Well, wait a minute. Are you angry that they attained these lvls through cheating or are you angry that they are charging "protection money" for people who want Baium?
Because they are both mutually exclusive.
If someone was to lvl legit up to 76 and charge this money, well, that's L2. That's the game. It would be up to the people who want Baium to get a group up there to protect them. Or two.
Using illicit means to lvl up is one thing but these players are going to do this regardless. I'm sure you could say that if these players had to grind up to these lvls legit they would have quit.
Possibly, but no real proof in that. L2 has always had people who did this stuff, even in the early days when we were all pretty close in lvl.
No, it's not a seperate issue at all. If you botted or ebayed, you don't have to worry about going red, you don't have to worry about getting exp back if you die in PvP, you have limitless resources to bother people in your game time because you don't have 'other things' to do (i.e. level/make money), etc.
Pressing for protection money is much, much more difficult for a clan that doesn't cheat, so you could say 'Using their ill-gained assets to gain an advantage that a legit clan in their situation could not have held' would be more accurate.
Lock-downs and wars are cool, but as has been said many times: What's the point of killing someone who can just bot it back? If you want no-consequence PvP you can get better, more complex gameplay in just about any other game (... even in RFO or Rappelz, sad as that may be...) - and ebaying and botting do just that.
PS: Not liking cheaters = go to WoW? Please. I know it's not going to change, but saying 'they make no difference' is ludicrous at the very best.
No, it's not a seperate issue at all. If you botted or ebayed, you don't have to worry about going red, you don't have to worry about getting exp back if you die in PvP, you have limitless resources to bother people in your game time because you don't have 'other things' to do (i.e. level/make money), etc.
Pressing for protection money is much, much more difficult for a clan that doesn't cheat, so you could say 'Using their ill-gained assets to gain an advantage that a legit clan in their situation could not have held' would be more accurate.
Lock-downs and wars are cool, but as has been said many times: What's the point of killing someone who can just bot it back? If you want no-consequence PvP you can get better, more complex gameplay in just about any other game (... even in RFO or Rappelz, sad as that may be...) - and ebaying and botting do just that.
PS: Not liking cheaters = go to WoW? Please. I know it's not going to change, but saying 'they make no difference' is ludicrous at the very best.
That is a good point and I can see that being a huge issue. However, it seems to me that Tedwerd is equally disturbed by the very fact that someone is charging protection money, as she says that it is because of their greed that legit players are leaving. (and not to say that she has to love it but just to point out that that behavior is part of the game)
I do wonder however if such players, even if they didn't get their lvls or equipment illicitly, would still behave in that fashion?
I still think it would be done. These types of players like this type of gameplay.
IIRC Dynasty when they were still (pretending to be?) legit locked down first DVC and then ToI on Devianne. On the other hand, p00t and cohorts never bothered with such a thing - they had no need to reserve the good levelling grounds for themselves because they never had any intention to earn it themselves.
No, it would be one thing if so and so was a legit player...but I happen to know that most of them are not...and that's what bothers me...the "50 mil for baium" really is just icing on the not so tasty cake.
Well the good news is you don't need someone to kill Baium for you. Simply do this. Camp the spot with a friend who has some bloody fabric, continuously talk to the angelic vortex until it ports you in. Immediately have your friend run to Baium and wake him...no one else can port in at this point. Run to him and hit him with your dagger til you see in yellow that you have his blood. BSOE. Your friend will be dead, they should stay dead until they are ported out (around 30 mins). Their dead body will be ported to the ground outside TOI. You can then BREZ. So, no "protection fee" and you have completed your mission. Bring all pvp pots neccessary because I highly doubt that the clan who camps baium will just let you do this without trying to kill you.
I lasted 10 without getting pked at all. You have to have good timing and a little luck. Not to mention I was up there waiting with someone who had no intentions of paying, and this is what they did...only, they kept one toon logged in somewhere else, and asked the people up there to pm her/him when Baium was up. We did, she logged in her other accts, went in, woke baium...you get the point.
You have to be quick, she was lucky because the 78 archer who was there didn't realize what she was doing before it was too late...