But realistically we are a healer, as much as any SE or EE. We are a hybrid healer buffer which happens to have his own personal party. Attack mages no but mages none the less.
actually i have no problem with beeing the support char behind the summon.
my problem is that the game became almost completely ranged. in previous updates classes like gladiators/ destroyers wich are pure meele classes imho got either runspeed boost or damage boost or a ranged attack.
im 1 of the lucky owners of the spectral lord (79 summon) but what i totally miss is ranged attack either for the sumomn or the summoner.
even if i were able to outheal an enemies damage (wich is increadible hard and mana consuming) in 9/10 fights the enemy can kite the summon if hes low on cp and cp pot his way to full cp again while my mana is gone at some point.
I was thinking of starting a summoner for a change of pace. But after reading some threads (here and on other forums), I don't think I will. They seem to be very gimp in open PvP.
But realistically we are a healer, as much as any SE or EE. We are a hybrid healer buffer which happens to have his own personal party. Attack mages no but mages none the less.
That was really bad for WC and OL. My WC has 32 STR that's more then any summon class can dream of. + we can wear light or heavy armor yet we get same nerf as healer class with a bow or Pole.
actually i have no problem with beeing the support char behind the summon.
my problem is that the game became almost completely ranged. in previous updates classes like gladiators/ destroyers wich are pure meele classes imho got either runspeed boost or damage boost or a ranged attack.
im 1 of the lucky owners of the spectral lord (79 summon) but what i totally miss is ranged attack either for the sumomn or the summoner.
even if i were able to outheal an enemies damage (wich is increadible hard and mana consuming) in 9/10 fights the enemy can kite the summon if hes low on cp and cp pot his way to full cp again while my mana is gone at some point.
necro is just a nuker that takes lower damage due to tp
imho summoners should have a more defined role.
if the role is to summon a massive beast that can devour fighter classes untill its banished by a healer then thats ok. remember the pss system. summoners are labeled offensive mages (in contrast to buffers, se,ee,bishop who are defensive mages) and therefore their role is to have an advantage over fighters classes in pvp.
well for a ps i dont see that advantage when archers 2 shot the summon beyond our capacity to heal it and even glads, destroyers, tyrants and tanks have an advantage in open pvp over a summoner due to cp pot spamming and pvp damage nerf.
the thing is we can not:
- send wave after wave of summons at our opponents
- outheal our opponents damage
- catch a kiting target
- severly debuff our oponent to make it easy for the summon to finish him (maybe a endgame wl can but a ps cant)
summoners really don't preform in the rps system like we should, mostly due to the damage nerf. as for being able to out heal damage, there is no way in hell unless i fight a tank, everything else can 2 hit my summons if lucky, i need UD just to take on 1 glad at my lvl.
pure summoners summons should also get +30-50% p.def to make up for how hard fighter classes hit now.
necro is just a nuker that takes lower damage due to tp
imho summoners should have a more defined role.
if the role is to summon a massive beast that can devour fighter classes untill its banished by a healer then thats ok. remember the pss system. summoners are labeled offensive mages (in contrast to buffers, se,ee,bishop who are defensive mages) and therefore their role is to have an advantage over fighters classes in pvp.
well for a ps i dont see that advantage when archers 2 shot the summon beyond our capacity to heal it and even glads, destroyers, tyrants and tanks have an advantage in open pvp over a summoner due to cp pot spamming and pvp damage nerf.
the thing is we can not:
- send wave after wave of summons at our opponents
- outheal our opponents damage
- catch a kiting target
- severly debuff our oponent to make it easy for the summon to finish him (maybe a endgame wl can but a ps cant)
Summoner is just a buffer that takes lower damage due to tp?
Don't make baseless statements without explaining flawwed reasoning. Quite frankly, that statement makes you look rather... below the intelligence threshold...
The reason why Summoners are labled Offensive Mages is only becuase they go through the Wizard path in their first class Change. Cannot believe you don't see that - it's trivial.
Summoners are a support class... FOR THEIR SERVITORS. Prophets are a Support Class, for Player Characters. Unless you want to call Prophets with a wolf Summoners, I suggest you really digest and take into mind those trivial differences in class design.
It is no one's fault that L2 has turned into a 600-900 range Zerg fest, but the players themselves.
Summoner is just a buffer that takes lower damage due to tp?
Don't make baseless statements without explaining flawwed reasoning. Quite frankly, that statement makes you look rather... below the intelligence threshold...
The reason why Summoners are labled Offensive Mages is only becuase they go through the Wizard path in their first class Change. Cannot believe you don't see that - it's trivial.
Summoners are a support class... FOR THEIR SERVITORS. Prophets are a Support Class, for Player Characters. Unless you want to call Prophets with a wolf Summoners, I suggest you really digest and take into mind those trivial differences in class design.
It is no one's fault that L2 has turned into a 600-900 range Zerg fest, but the players themselves.
hmm heres my (late) reply:
offensive mage:
as you stated yourselve the ps chooses the Wizard path in their first class Change. he doesnt choose the healer path (like a se) yet none of the nukes or offensive spells get continued. windshackle is the only thing that gets continued and thats an ee debuff not an offensive spell.
a buffer (prophet) is a defensive mage a phantom summoner is not (see the paper/scisor/stone system introduced inc5)
defensive mage/ support class
if we were a support class the combination is very bad. while a pp/se/.. has 5 times more buffs then a summoner for his summon. if the pp goes pvp grp with a dd that dd will pop cp pots/heal pots yet the summon can do none of this.
if you remember the early early chrons a summoner had a lot faster summoning speed and it would be good to go back to that role.
for the sumoner i see 2 possible playstyles that would support a more offensive role:
1. the summon is a expendable (spell) then:
the summon should be smmoned fast, send against the enemy, die and be resummoned again. the summone would still need to have more pdef then now not dying in 2 hits and be able to hit kiting enemies.
2. the summon is a (meele) weapon then:
the summon should not die at all. remove tp, remove summon healing and basicly force the enemy to kill the summoner and not the summon.
and of course its the game designers fault if they make classes 2shot others from 900+ range. why wouldnt a meele blow do 5 times the damage then an arrow shot at maximum range ?
To continue off-topic, I wonder if NC has ever considered scaling archer damage based on distance to the target.
While 1v1 low-buff PvP favors the nuker (the other main ranged DD), this game is much more about group PvP and events than it is random solo encounters, and as I'm fond of complaining, archers have it too good overall for being ranged DDs. They easily compete with and often surpass nuker damage while having advantages in survivability, mobility, almost universally deadly damage (tanks come the closest to "Resist Archer"), and an MP bar that will last for many more kills than a nuker's.
agreed to the summoning thing. They are wicked for PVE.. can solo and lvl fast if you know how. Quiet price but thats the payoff from solo.
Heres the thing, in PVPnow days everyone knows to kill the summoner not the summon. so really they need to do some changes. make them part of the summoner, or give them extreme bonus to pdef. Or change the stats of the summoner to make up for the totally nerfed basic stats. Int.. is usless as a summoner, and other then that a DE mage has nothing.
techincally to kill a summoner u kill the summon, regardless how much hp the summons have they have very low defence. any class but a tank can 2 hit summons it seams these days.
Eh, not true, get high enough with decent buffs and your summon can take some punishment. The key is to have a acumen weapon to heal fast... You can be deadly with an acumen weapon+zerk+pp acumen... I can out-heal necro dmg sometimes with that combo.
necros are fairly easy with good buffs. try taking a glad or an archer, glads fully charged use 2 skills and my summons are dead. there is no outhealing it.
necros are fairly easy with good buffs. try taking a glad or an archer, glads fully charged use 2 skills and my summons are dead. there is no outhealing it.
Agreed, I avoid glads like the plauge, hopefully them getting their Pdef slashed in half in CT1 will make them somewhat easier to handle. Archers fully buffed are a menice as well, but not as bad as glads. However, unless I am fighting some major alliance in a castle siege, I rarely run into an archer with the crazy pp+SE+BD+sws+warlock buffs. They are sometimes manageable if you are around the same level. >_<
in endgame pvp you should always go for the summon 1st
1. against high dd like archers and nukers the summoner wont be able to outheal the damage,
2. the summon can not pop any pots. even if the summoner could outheal the damage hell run out of mp fast (100+ mp per heal)
3. the summon has far lower pdef/mdef then the summoner
4. once the summon is dead the (real) summoner, not talking about necros is a s good as weaponless since resummoning an unbuffed summon takes to long and would be useless anyway.
necros are fairly easy with good buffs. try taking a glad or an archer, glads fully charged use 2 skills and my summons are dead. there is no outhealing it.
Agreed, I avoid glads like the plauge, hopefully them getting their Pdef slashed in half in CT1 will make them somewhat easier to handle. Archers fully buffed are a menice as well, but not as bad as glads. However, unless I am fighting some major alliance in a castle siege, I rarely run into an archer with the crazy pp+SE+BD+sws+warlock buffs. They are sometimes manageable if you are around the same level. >_<
They loosing P defence ? How? that should effect everyone wearing heavy!
Has any summoner out there ever used the bloody orchid with SA backblow..??
According to l2 calc the dmg output would be H U G E.
But Im not so sure they done the calcs correctly, says I would crit ~70% of my hits from behind, Id say that sounds off...
From behind, also i believe the hard cap of 500 crit rate(50%) still stands. Generally though i'd say backblow is inferior to just focus. Yes is has a stronger effect but it only works from behind which, with l2's funky mechanics often as not doesn't recognize you as being where you appear to be.
I remember one post that said they went off every 30 seconds, but that could have been someone's offhand guesstimate or perhaps for a cubic that tends to fire less often (Spark vs. Phantom, for example). I rather imagined that the activation time would remain somewhat variable, but I don't have a class with cubics on the PTS, so I don't know.
as i've heard it, all except the healing now activate on target while in combat every 30 seconds, so for example i could be in oly and even though i'm mostly doing healing the cubics will still fire on the opponent.
Do you know if there are any changes to healing cubic fire rate? And are both cubics in the same 30 sec interval (if both are offensive)? Meaning that if one fires, the other can't fire for another 30 seconds? - If the other one doesn't fire again, that is.
offensive mage:
as you stated yourselve the ps chooses the Wizard path in their first class Change. he doesnt choose the healer path (like a se) yet none of the nukes or offensive spells get continued. windshackle is the only thing that gets continued and thats an ee debuff not an offensive spell.
a buffer (prophet) is a defensive mage a phantom summoner is not (see the paper/scisor/stone system introduced inc5)
Cubics and debuffs are quite offensive, in an inverse sort of way. They are detrimental skills. Also, through your servitors, you have other offensive skills. Like drain on one server and AoE Poison/Corpse Burst on another. The servitor in and of itself is an offensive skill. It's just another/different means by which a Summoner deals damage and/or supports their party/themselves.
defensive mage/ support class
if we were a support class the combination is very bad. while a pp/se/.. has 5 times more buffs then a summoner for his summon. if the pp goes pvp grp with a dd that dd will pop cp pots/heal pots yet the summon can do none of this.
Sorry, but PP, SE, EE, Bishop, WC, and OL don't have servitors that can deal very good damage or give Epic-Jewel-like short-duration buffs to players.
if you remember the early early chrons a summoner had a lot faster summoning speed and it would be good to go back to that role.
That's called Arcana Agility and Summon Lore. Enjoy.
for the sumoner i see 2 possible playstyles that would support a more offensive role:
1. the summon is a expendable (spell) then:
the summon should be smmoned fast, send against the enemy, die and be resummoned again. the summone would still need to have more pdef then now not dying in 2 hits and be able to hit kiting enemies.
2. the summon is a (meele) weapon then:
the summon should not die at all. remove tp, remove summon healing and basicly force the enemy to kill the summoner and not the summon.
1 is just dumb and would severely overpower summoners in Olympiad which is how NCSoft balances the game.
2 is overpowered because it would make summoners the only class that can kill other players outside of their line of sight. Every other range class needs line of sight to kill another player (Nukers, Archers, Gladiator and Tyrant ranged skills, etc.). With this in place, a Summoner would be able to run around the corner while it's summon solos people and kill a couple/few of them before they could even find him. Do you see where I'm coming from?
and of course its the game designers fault if they make classes 2shot others from 900+ range. why wouldnt a meele blow do 5 times the damage then an arrow shot at maximum range ?