Ok please keep this thread away from being locked, this is just an observation for the GM's and Mods.
With regard to the souless ones I just wanted to say that I think it's somewhat out of hand when players are being PKed by the same because regular players are interupting their 'levelling'.
Even more so when more or less all rooms are held by the same groups and gather together when normal players try to xp there.
I would like to suggest someone takes a wander around Gustins cats and necros.
The Cat's were clear for about a week and it was *SOOO* nice and I'm sure as hell people would come back in droves if you keep nailing them.
Btw, on Bartz when it happened was funny listening to shout. Farmers were giving death threat's to him.. "We bring you money, we customers too.. we kill all family ... you watch!!".
Ok please keep this thread away from being locked, this is just an observation for the GM's and Mods.
With regard to the souless ones I just wanted to say that I think it's somewhat out of hand when players are being PKed by the same because regular players are interupting their 'levelling'.
Even more so when more or less all rooms are held by the same groups and gather together when normal players try to xp there.
I would like to suggest someone takes a wander around Gustins cats and necros.
Can we leave it at that please :D
A little clarification needed.
You (someone) interupted their leveling and they pk'd you (someone)?
on Bartz when it happened was funny listening to shout. Farmers were giving death threat's to him.. "We bring you money, we customers too.. we kill all family ... you watch!!".
rofl...maybe if they play they should read the eula which the click "I agree" to.
thanks for the laugh. any other memorable shouts? :D
Yeah me and my friend got PKed in Dark Omens after a bot group was unable to successfully train us to get their room back. Where am I supposed to hunt when every single Lillim Great Mystic room in Disciples, Dark Omens, Saints, AND Forbidden Path are being botted?
Believe me I checked, there is no free room in all 4 7x cata's on Bartz.
I'm still pretty new to the game but I am suprized how many bots play. Most people seem to think they are just part of the game now. Kinda sad. I try to report some everyday, but I don't know if it helps any.
I wished GMSpam would visit the Forsaken Plains at Franz too.
It´s nearly impossible to level there as a legit player, only when I have luck and the server crashed or if some bots died I can make some experience points with my main character. So I stuck at L61 since weeks and have to play with my lower characters :(
I wish they`d at least start to answer the petitions on particular bot groups :( Ok, I can`t petition all cata probably, and they won`t be able to ban them all (I assume so, though I don`t see a reason why), but at very least I should be able to get ONE room for my party. Out of each and every room in every cata that is taken by automatons...
Hope this thread don't get locked. I would actually like to thank NC for the last mass banning. Since then, my ping rate to Hindemuth has dropped below 100 and stayed there - keep up the good work.
And I'll definitely keep my eye out for =SPAM=, maybe toss him a rec or 2
No thank you..... I worked hard to get what i have!
On the one hand, the lack of item drops has made afk-botting risk-free. But on the other hand all the low cats and necrops were full of people tryin to get your gear. They may have killed a few bots, but mostly other players (cuz bots use a client that can quick forcelog, whereas the rest of us are stuck in-game).
It was pretty sick to be lower level back then. You got trained all the time, not just like once per week, but every -_- day. Neither I or my son ever dropped anything of value, and only died a few times, but I don't miss that aspect of the game.
I loved it when people tried to train me as a raider. I carried a polearm and had some decent buffs, so if they trained me, I just headed to a corner and thanked them for all the XP.
I did not once die to someone trying to train me. So I do miss it, to be honest. At the same time, I never tried to train bots, so...
No I am appreciative of the way the current team try to sort out our issues, it's just that I'm on Gustin and at the moment we are having a lot of problems with the souless ones and their little masters.
I find it irritating that those that are obviously breaking rules can also stop other players (who aren't in most cases - not all) from playing where they want to. Fighting with live players for a room is one thing but fighting with hordes of bots is another all together.
On a side note - thanks all that have posted for not getting the thread locked, it's appreciated :D
Last time I talked about it I got my thread locked.
Yeah, Teon has that problem. The bots names changed, but it's still a pain to find a place in catacombs, or to find mobs at Hot Springs or Varka... and to know that they are even in Pagan is very frustrating.
BTW if you come to Hot Springs on Teon, say hi to the asian named TH doing Egg & Liquor Delivery quests in loop. He needs it, 'cause 24/7 on those quests is hard you know.
No I am appreciative of the way the current team try to sort out our issues, it's just that I'm on Gustin and at the moment we are having a lot of problems with the souless ones and their little masters.
I made a humble attempt at sarcasm. I too am on Gustin and I bristled a bit when the thread I linked claimed we should be more appreciative that NCSoft is doing something.
When(and I have been waiting for years) NCSoft gets the "soulless" issue under control I will...well, I will give them $15 just like every month. That's how it works. They provide a service. I give them $15 a month. They actually get around to banning the painfully obvious, umm...accordian shaped auto-collecting parties and I will give them $15 a month.
Your thread is on-point. I was just poking fun at another post by a different author.
No I am appreciative of the way the current team try to sort out our issues, it's just that I'm on Gustin and at the moment we are having a lot of problems with the souless ones and their little masters.
I made a humble attempt at sarcasm. I too am on Gustin and I bristled a bit when the thread I linked claimed we should be more appreciative that NCSoft is doing something.
When(and I have been waiting for years) NCSoft gets the "soulless" issue under control I will...well, I will give them $15 just like every month. That's how it works. They provide a service. I give them $15 a month. They actually get around to banning the painfully obvious, umm...accordian shaped auto-collecting parties and I will give them $15 a month.
Your thread is on-point. I was just poking fun at another post by a different author.
No I am appreciative of the way the current team try to sort out our issues, it's just that I'm on Gustin and at the moment we are having a lot of problems with the souless ones and their little masters.
I made a humble attempt at sarcasm. I too am on Gustin and I bristled a bit when the thread I linked claimed we should be more appreciative that NCSoft is doing something.
When(and I have been waiting for years) NCSoft gets the "soulless" issue under control I will...well, I will give them $15 just like every month. That's how it works. They provide a service. I give them $15 a month. They actually get around to banning the painfully obvious, umm...accordian shaped auto-collecting parties and I will give them $15 a month.
Your thread is on-point. I was just poking fun at another post by a different author.
I too am on Gustin and I bristled a bit when the thread I linked claimed we should be more appreciative that NCSoft is doing something.
When(and I have been waiting for years) NCSoft gets the "soulless" issue under control I will...well, I will give them $15 just like every month.
Thus spoke a member of the most heavily botted alliance on Gustin. :eek:
Hint: don't wait till GM's do something about it, do it yourself. Start from your own "soulless" clannies (you know who they are).
On a general note, I find it utterly hypocritical when someone complains about a group of low level farmer bots in some godforsaken catacomb, while turning a blind eye on botted lvl 78+ characters in his own clan. :mad:
I too am on Gustin and I bristled a bit when the thread I linked claimed we should be more appreciative that NCSoft is doing something.
When(and I have been waiting for years) NCSoft gets the "soulless" issue under control I will...well, I will give them $15 just like every month.
Thus spoke a member of the most heavily botted alliance on Gustin. :eek:
Hint: don't wait till GM's do something about it, do it yourself. Start from your own "soulless" clannies (you know who they are).
On a general note, I find it utterly hypocritical when someone complains about a group of low level farmer bots in some godforsaken catacomb, while turning a blind eye on botted lvl 78+ characters in his own clan. :mad:
So, Spam, you're encouraging violation of the forum rules, are you? That was a clear accusation of cheating, a type of post that your moderators have deleted dozens of times for me. Or are you somehow invested in defending those Lionna clans?
Let's face it, every major ally on Lionna that does the story bosses, plays at the olympiad, and is active in PvP is built on a foundation of botters dating back years. If the major allies on Lionna kicked their botters, they'd have too few left to play. Look at Franz, a huge group of Lionna players moved there, and all of them botted up to 75+ successfully with little trouble (of course, so did their primary rival). That rather does indicate that NCSoft is a total failure, doesn't it? When there's noone legitimate in Truelies clan, who's going to kick the botters? Do you expect them to kick each other? Why? And let's say they did kick out the 99% of the toons that were botted up, what would they do then? Spend 2 years levelling up to the level of their rivals who can do the same thing automated in a month?
Cheating happens now largely because everyone else has already cheated. Want to play with them? Then you cheat. You want to fix it Spam? Start here. FlightsofBlood, toon has been sold 3 times, used a paid powerlevelling service to hit 75, and has ebayed hundreds of millions of adena for gear. Want people to stop cheating? Start banning obvious cheaters like that, and maybe the players will start doing something too.
I too am on Gustin and I bristled a bit when the thread I linked claimed we should be more appreciative that NCSoft is doing something.
When(and I have been waiting for years) NCSoft gets the "soulless" issue under control I will...well, I will give them $15 just like every month.
Thus spoke a member of the most heavily botted alliance on Gustin. :eek:
Hint: don't wait till GM's do something about it, do it yourself. Start from your own "soulless" clannies (you know who they are).
On a general note, I find it utterly hypocritical when someone complains about a group of low level farmer bots in some godforsaken catacomb, while turning a blind eye on botted lvl 78+ characters in his own clan. :mad:
You should know me a bit better than that Acon - obviously not :mad: :(
bet spam is just sick of *******s who come complaining to him about botters when they basically do it themselves
how bout you? you legit?
lol. Yeah, keep going with that line. 3 years, I'm level 73. To get my s grade weapon, I crafted and sold, 2 tallum glaives, a BotMT, FDS, soul bow, a DS+6, and 2 elemental swords. And it ****** me off to see all the other shmucks that I can pwn because they haven't a clue how to play their newly bought/botted toon when I had to go through so much to get inferior gear. Honestly, BiggyLuv, if you're out there, how the hell does an s-grade tyrant lose to an a-grade swordsinger?
And I'm tired of HGMSpam. He's the guy at the top, he's the guy in charge, and so its his responsibility in the end that the game is full of bots. And my frustration has nothing to do with a bot enforcer pk'ing our SE last night (and the shmuck didn't drop anything when red).
2 big allys fighting each other with mostly botted/buyed chars, spamming QHP and CP pots with bought adena, winning olymp with bought gear - no use and no chance to fight tham, compare with tham whan your not botting/buying stuff and accounts ... but the best thing is they own best hight lv xp spots 24/7 so also no chance to reach theyr lv/gear/staff/enchanted skills .... i could write a book about that lol, but it would be usless like mine post here...
Hint: don't wait till GM's do something about it, do it yourself.
Thanks, but I'll pass. I came back with the sole motivation of hanging out with a friend of mine. While I am doing that I play my little lowbie toons and relax. My current favorite is a level 39 Cleric with the Devotion set, a quest wand, and some shield we got as a full drop.
That's what I do now.
I'm not going to play holier than thou anymore because I've never done it, I simply don't care. I'm not going to go rappeling into the Gustin forum railing against the injustice of it all, I simply don't care. I'm not going red to help NCSoft anymore, I simply don't care. I'm not going to act like that clan is doing it but that alliance isn't, I simply don't care. As far as I am concerned, everyone does it until proven otherwise.
I tried to help years ago. I'm done. No more going red. No more ostracizing people who do it. No more reporting it to GM's. I'm playing my little lowbies and when(if) NCSoft bans every single botter(regardless of whether I know them or not, again, I simply don't care who they are) that will make it easier for me to level and have fun while playing my little toons.
Is it hypocritical to want every botter banned? By your logic, I guess it is. If every botter went away tomorrow I'd be happy no matter who they were. I 'm just not going to spend anymore of my time to fight that battle when it could be spent having fun with friends.
You don't like that? Well, I'll rummage around and see if I can find some "I give a [censored]" but honestly I think I am completely out. :D
So, Spam, you're encouraging violation of the forum rules, are you? That was a clear accusation of cheating, a type of post that your moderators have deleted dozens of times for me. Or are you somehow invested in defending those Lionna clans?
Let's face it, every major ally on Lionna that does the story bosses, plays at the olympiad, and is active in PvP is built on a foundation of botters dating back years. If the major allies on Lionna kicked their botters, they'd have too few left to play. Look at Franz, a huge group of Lionna players moved there, and all of them botted up to 75+ successfully with little trouble (of course, so did their primary rival). That rather does indicate that NCSoft is a total failure, doesn't it? When there's noone legitimate in Truelies clan, who's going to kick the botters? Do you expect them to kick each other? Why? And let's say they did kick out the 99% of the toons that were botted up, what would they do then? Spend 2 years levelling up to the level of their rivals who can do the same thing automated in a month?
Cheating happens now largely because everyone else has already cheated. Want to play with them? Then you cheat. You want to fix it Spam? Start here. FlightsofBlood, toon has been sold 3 times, used a paid powerlevelling service to hit 75, and has ebayed hundreds of millions of adena for gear. Want people to stop cheating? Start banning obvious cheaters like that, and maybe the players will start doing something too.
I've got to agree in part with the sentiment here (though I probably won't be able to post anymore for doing so).
Something sure has changed. Not so very long ago if someone called someone else out on these official forums and proclaimed them by strong inference to be a cheater, that thread would have been removed or locked.
Not so long ago, saying "I quit--screw you" would get the thread pulled or padlocked.
Not so long ago, even TYPING the word b-o-t in any form got the whole darned thread locked....
I suppose times do change. Even though those things were addressed because they were specified in rules--it seems that now all are allowed (even though rules have not been changed).
Either the moderators have changed or something else has--because this forum is FULL of threads that would have been deleted or locked 6 months ago. Curiously the rules don't seem to have changed, just the enforcement of them.
I would argue you either enforce the rules uniformally or change them.
......You had me at 'the ol' golden padlock'......
whooow. I hate to break out the rule book on this one but the person I quoted called no one in particular a cheater. They said that someone in particular was ambivalent to cheating yet complained about it. (Yet is was removed by the true authority of the forums so...)
Listen guys/gals I know most people still want bots gone. I know that some people just don’t care anymore. I know that there are many that have just given up and started using bots because they are "tired of falling behind."
Everyday I try to remove as many of our automated friends as possible. I also answer many of the e-mails that are sent in from ex-customers asking why they are banned. They never thought they would get caught because everyone else does it and never gets caught. Well except when they get caught...
I am not asking our customers to stop this problem. It is my job to stop (minimize is more like it.) I am asking our customers to stand up against this problem. Don't let is be alright. If a friend or clan member is botting, let them know it bothers you and that it is cheating.
I don’t mind being called names. I don't mind people complaining about my inaction. Why? Because it means they still care. I am bothered by folks that are ambivalent to the whole thing and don't mind if their friends cheat and will report bots or complain about them only when they mess with their plans.
"My friend only bots to keep up. It is all those farmers in the catacombs that are the real problem." Sorry you can't crack open pandora's box to just take a peek. It is either open or it is closed.
I must apologize for taking this thread off course. Hopefully it will remain on course and I shall get back to removing bots.
Ok please keep this thread away from being locked, this is just an observation for the GM's and Mods.
With regard to the souless ones I just wanted to say that I think it's somewhat out of hand when players are being PKed by the same because regular players are interupting their 'levelling'.
Even more so when more or less all rooms are held by the same groups and gather together when normal players try to xp there.
I would like to suggest someone takes a wander around Gustins cats and necros.
Can we leave it at that please :D
I want to make it very very clear because I'm starting to feel that other people are attempting to insinuate otherwise.
I posted here because I use the cats a lot with my friend and a couple of boxed buffers we have. Occasionally I go with other friends from outside my clan (similar scenario). Recently I have had problems with bots attacking our groups because we want to party there. I really resent anyone insinuating that I am anything other than legit in my game play and therefore should not be complaining. After 2 years play and still level 72 with a handful of alts mostly D/C grade I hardly think so. :mad:
Can we put drop on mob death back in the game so I can at least dent the bots again? I loved getting full drops from bot trains. (even taged bots dropped gear).
At least you are working to get rid of as many as you can spam. Perosnally I stopped trying to train them when they stopped dropping gear because it no longer does any good, since they just go back to hunting after they rez.(it was fun to get their weapons and watch them all die over and over because they couldnt hurt mobs). I now only train them to get a spot to hunt in.
I report them every once in a while, but have become discouraged when a year later I still see some of the same bots that I have been reporting every other day.
IMO... the really solve the problem... derrastic measures NEED to be taken, it's unfortuneatly obvious the current system in place is either not working at all, or is working but it horridly overloaded..
Changes need to be made to the EULA, Server Annoucements made, and official annoucements on the main lineage2 site posted, followed by a date set when the system will be changed in a manner to completely boot anyone even remotely "bot" like.... yes, a whole swack of possible inicience will get the boot to, possible even me.... Still, i'd rather help out by working to get my account back again, if you followed the already available rules, you should have EVERYTHING you need to get your account back, (serial code is a nessity).... This would emediately render bought accounts inaccesible AND unable to be reattainted. Which i would guess would likely get rid of nearly 20% of the current servers population emediately (high end stuff to)...
Also a strick and quick method of having a dedicated GM port to every specific place where a bot report is submitted. AKA, if someone has an auto shop up, and someone reports it, it should be as easy as someone instantly porting there, buying it all up, and watching what happens, if they can confirm it (no one can refill stock in a matter of 1/4 second even with a macro of some kind), they get an instant boot. Someone auto-rezing? that's fairly easy to figure out as well.
Start preventing boxed buffers. Limit a single client to a computer.. if a client is already open, refuse another to be open.. instantly we'll get quite a number of buffers back playing full time. Sure there are a few people with another computer or more.. but it would still solve problems.
My point is:
At the current point of the situation, MASSIVE changes need to be made, major sacrifices need to be forced. And anyone that complains about it should clearly see that something needs to be done or else they are likely in favor of the situation at hand.
whooow. I hate to break out the rule book on this one but the person I quoted called no one in particular a cheater.
Yep, that was in no way a personal attack. I'm just...
a member of the most heavily botted alliance on Gustin.
Riiiiiiiight. As for you...
Don't let [th]is be alright. If a friend or clan member is botting, let them know it bothers you and that it is cheating.
I'll get Nancy Reagan to hop on this. We can go to schools and D.A.R.E. kids to stay off...3rd party programs that violate the End User License Agreement of Massivley Multiplayer Online Role Playing Games. Can we fit that on a poster? A t-shirt? I'll check with Kinkos.
No thanks. This issue(not being able to keep up, constantly seeing people cheat, never notcing a dent being made) is what got me to switch to a different game years ago and if I lift a finger to do anything it will be simply to state how disappointed I am that such a fun game could never get a grip on the problem in any tangible way.
Saying that it is your job to combat it and that you do what you can is reassuring.
I am not asking our customers to stop this problem.
Asking me, in the same breath, to make it my issue is disingenuous. I know you folks(NCSoft-NA) are in a tough spot but the ball was in your court years ago when legit players were much more plentiful and cries for assistance were met with thread deletions and promises.
Flash forward several years and the best answer you've got is for me to give botters the Care Bear Stare. I'm not making fun of the situation, that would be mean. Then again, I wouldn't tell someone three years after they quit the game because of people botting that the problem could be solved by letting the botters know that it bothers me and that I cast a scornful glare on their cheating ways. That would just be...silly. ;)
Everyday I try to remove as many of our automated friends as possible. I also answer many of the e-mails that are sent in from ex-customers asking why they are banned. They never thought they would get caught because everyone else does it and never gets caught. Well except when they get caught...
That's why I suggested - and still do - communicating more on your results. I assume it's hard to be efficient and not being laugh about because some cheaters are spreading misinformation to protect their business. I remember someone saying he was banned because he made too many petitions, but it's often more simple to push people to think that botters give more money to NCsoft than real players and thus, it would be useless to report them. Common misconceptions are also thrown for economy, like "without the bots, the economy would fail, you must thank them".
However communication and obvious acts and results would prevent more players to go to the dark side. There are too many nice people, sharing and polite, openly telling you they bot because they can't be banned. Communication could remove you some work, IMHO.
I am not asking our customers to stop this problem. It is my job to stop (minimize is more like it.) I am asking our customers to stand up against this problem. Don't let is be alright. If a friend or clan member is botting, let them know it bothers you and that it is cheating.
When you see someone who obviously cheats after years, it seems like they only got like a warning, then a 72 hours ban, and will continue cheating till another petition comes.
When someone you caught botting, expelled from your clan, reported with screenshots, emails and all, comes on your TS server asking if you saw Clan A at your level in TOI because she obviously has a list of players in the area, that's frustrating. When she whines in front of Longhorn because it isn't being done in a whole day (while some of your clannies have been waiting there for one week), because she's used to have all on a silver plate, when she tells you "the spot is taken" in the middle of Hot Springs when there's place for several people (between the zombies parties)... you feel the urge to yell :
"HGM Spaaaam!!! How many petitions do I need to send to remove that mentally challenged person?!"
And even if I feel heard when petitionning, I can't help but doubt on your ability to detect the use of an illegal program just for "enhanced PvP" and not for bots.
Listen guys/gals I know most people still want bots gone. I know that some people just don’t care anymore. I know that there are many that have just given up and started using bots because they are "tired of falling behind."
You give my Orc's the power and i'll turn the land red with bot blood..... I'm serious!
So far my game time consists of logging in seeing that the area i play in is teaming with bots reporting them and log out. I've had times that i couldn't get to the monsters fast enough to engage them.
I know you GM's are banning bots at a rate of 100,000 a second, but it's just not enough. I'm tired of trying to play this game only to find out i can't play.
IMO... the really solve the problem... drastic measures NEED to be taken
I've already made the suggestion of ether a GM based or NC backed Player based "Brute Squad". I don't know how much more drastic we can get....Now if they do such a thing thats another story.
I don’t mind being called names. I don't mind people complaining about my inaction. Why? Because it means they still care. I am bothered by folks that are ambivalent to the whole thing and don't mind if their friends cheat and will report bots or complain about them only when they mess with their plans.
"My friend only bots to keep up. It is all those farmers in the catacombs that are the real problem." Sorry you can't crack open pandora's box to just take a peek. It is either open or it is closed.
you rock spam and thats the last i will say in this thread since it's basically a bunch of botters running around with lvl 78 buffers named jhfkujghb saying how much you fail
Listen guys/gals I know most people still want bots gone. I know that some people just don’t care anymore. I know that there are many that have just given up and started using bots because they are "tired of falling behind."
You give my Orc's the power and i'll turn the land red with bot blood..... I'm serious!
So far my game time consists of logging in seeing that the area i play in is teaming with bots reporting them and log out. I've had times that i couldn't get to the monsters fast enough to engage them.
I know you GM's are banning bots at a rate of 100,000 a second, but it's just not enough. I'm tired of trying to play this game only to find out i can't play.
Splatter, what places are you talking about? I'm assuming you're talking about open field spots. Maybe we're just lucky on Seighardt, but apart from starter villages, the open fields are that much of a problem. It's the cats and certain other dungeons that are a real problem (on Seighardt).
I personally think the biggest problem is the amount of time it takes to ban them, sure u report them but there still there 2 weeks l8tr. If they were banned 1-2 days after u report them more ppl would make the effort, sure i know u have to be 100% sure.
I report every single bot i see, i dont care who it is, what clan there in friend or foe. They bot i report them simple as...
I don’t mind being called names. I don't mind people complaining about my inaction. Why? Because it means they still care. I am bothered by folks that are ambivalent to the whole thing and don't mind if their friends cheat and will report bots or complain about them only when they mess with their plans.
"My friend only bots to keep up. It is all those farmers in the catacombs that are the real problem." Sorry you can't crack open pandora's box to just take a peek. It is either open or it is closed.
you rock spam and thats the last i will say in this thread since it's basically a bunch of botters running around with lvl 78 buffers named jhfkujghb saying how much you fail
You're very funny Nan. For about the millionth time I MADE THIS POST!!!!
I have a 55 PP, 50 EE, baby cleric and 44 SE, I can only use one buffer at a time with any of my characters.
I don't give a flying (insert rude word here) what your 'botters' do. I am making the complaint because it's causing me problems. Is there any chance at all you can understand that.
i got really tired of reporting all i see that are using illegal programs, its just too many of tham, time from time ill write a angry petition whan i cant find xp spot at any 75,80+ place ... IT, pagan, MOS, fod, HS, varka, kentra, toi, catascobs, dino and yes they are also in hero rift farming RBs... they are just everywhere you look at any lv at any xp spot... sometimes im suprised to meet real player ingame, whitch is or was not cheating somehow
Spam, here's the problem. I can report the same bot a hundred times. Nothing gets done. Why? Because the bot is attended. Of the people that moved from Lionna to Franz and botted up, the only ones NCSoft banned were the idiots that left them unattended.
Your procedures are never going to successfully combat the problem until you find a means of banning -attended- bots. The bots where one person is watching the screens on several automated players. And I'm not going to go through the trouble of petitioning garbage named attended bots (or friends) since I know you cannot ban them.
You have never, to my knowledge, ever banned anyone I know that botted while at the keyboard. Never. Only the AFKers, and that's why L2 has failed.
How do you define an attended bot versus a normal player?
I can tell you how I caught a certain extremely evasive botter in the Blazing Swamp trench (one of the most popular spots among the "afk xpers"). I watched him from above, I targeted the mobs and saw him promptly switch targets, I targeted his buffer, clicked Assist and noticed that he did not have anything on target while buffing and healing his master, I saw other signs of an "automated gameplay".
And then he suddenly changed the pattern: now he did not retarget the mobs anymore, his buffer started to run around him in circles, and so on. He did all the things to show that he was not afk (as if he knew someone spotted him doing something bad). Heck, he even talked to his own buffbox in white chat, and responded. :)
I just kept watching... Guess what, finally he could not stand the tension anymore and pmed me.
The thing was, it is not possible to see anyone from the bottom of the BS trench (as I was hiding behind its walls). That is, you need to have some illegal things installed to be able to know that you're being watched from outside.
Anyway, I heard that bot programs send a certain kind of packets that can be easily detected and identified, server-side.
So, all a GM has to do is monitor the suspected player for a while and analize his data streams.
And, to be honest, it's what I'd expect to be a function of GameGuard: prevent a player from running illegal programs just by analizing his packets.
In practice though, botters still run their 3rd party applications uninterrupted, while legit players regularly get the "GameGuard error" message... :(
Listen guys/gals I know most people still want bots gone. I know that some people just don’t care anymore. I know that there are many that have just given up and started using bots because they are "tired of falling behind."
Everyday I try to remove as many of our automated friends as possible. I also answer many of the e-mails that are sent in from ex-customers asking why they are banned. They never thought they would get caught because everyone else does it and never gets caught. Well except when they get caught...
I am wondering if a policy change could be put in place. Instead of perma banned on first offense maybe be given 7 days. Next one is perma.
The reason for this is partly business and party... well you'll see. When banned the pro-farmers will just bot up a new crew. The hard core botters can be up an running again in no time. I've seen posts of people bragging level 1-60 in 10 days. And up to 74 or more in another 10 days. But the ones who try it once and get caught should be given another chance.
This game is getting old. Some people have been here a long time and get tired of someone popping up the next day in S grade. Some just can't take the grind. A seven day ban on 1st offense is like punishing a kid caught stealing a candy. Some won't do it again. A perma ban, however, will cause some will leave forever. They might go to another MMO or private servers. So this is lost revenue. These are also part of our dynamic community who will be missed.
I never thought I'd make this argument but times change. In the end this is just a game.
A kid who steals a candy once should not be cast out of society. A person who bots once should not be thrown out right away. Help our community stay alive longer.
The full party bots, on the other hand, should just get an IP ban.
whooow. I hate to break out the rule book on this one but the person I quoted called no one in particular a cheater. They said that someone in particular was ambivalent to cheating yet complained about it. (Yet is was removed by the true authority of the forums so...)
Listen guys/gals I know most people still want bots gone. I know that some people just don’t care anymore. I know that there are many that have just given up and started using bots because they are "tired of falling behind."
Everyday I try to remove as many of our automated friends as possible. I also answer many of the e-mails that are sent in from ex-customers asking why they are banned. They never thought they would get caught because everyone else does it and never gets caught. Well except when they get caught...
I am not asking our customers to stop this problem. It is my job to stop (minimize is more like it.) I am asking our customers to stand up against this problem. Don't let is be alright. If a friend or clan member is botting, let them know it bothers you and that it is cheating.
I don’t mind being called names. I don't mind people complaining about my inaction. Why? Because it means they still care. I am bothered by folks that are ambivalent to the whole thing and don't mind if their friends cheat and will report bots or complain about them only when they mess with their plans.
"My friend only bots to keep up. It is all those farmers in the catacombs that are the real problem." Sorry you can't crack open pandora's box to just take a peek. It is either open or it is closed.
I must apologize for taking this thread off course. Hopefully it will remain on course and I shall get back to removing bots.
Thanks
~spam
Just make me a level 80 char that cannot take dmg and does not run out of mana, a NC title and special colored name, I alone could make a massive difference on bartz, and here the best part, your customers will be screaming about how awesome it is, make it a "NC Volunteer Patrol" style clan if you want, no hunting, no oly, no clan wars, just smoking farmers and there res'ers. Won't touch one single legit player.
Been spending more and more time on korean servers, and there just beyonf superior compared to ours. I think it's time to ask for more control from korea there though, because things obviously are not working.
Listen guys/gals I know most people still want bots gone. I know that some people just don’t care anymore. I know that there are many that have just given up and started using bots because they are "tired of falling behind."
Everyday I try to remove as many of our automated friends as possible. I also answer many of the e-mails that are sent in from ex-customers asking why they are banned. They never thought they would get caught because everyone else does it and never gets caught. Well except when they get caught...
I am wondering if a policy change could be put in place. Instead of perma banned on first offense maybe be given 7 days. Next one is perma.
The reason for this is partly business and party... well you'll see. When banned the pro-farmers will just bot up a new crew. The hard core botters can be up an running again in no time. I've seen posts of people bragging level 1-60 in 10 days. And up to 74 or more in another 10 days. But the ones who try it once and get caught should be given another chance.
This game is getting old. Some people have been here a long time and get tired of someone popping up the next day in S grade. Some just can't take the grind. A seven day ban on 1st offense is like punishing a kid caught stealing a candy. Some won't do it again. A perma ban, however, will cause some will leave forever. They might go to another MMO or private servers. So this is lost revenue. These are also part of our dynamic community who will be missed.
I never thought I'd make this argument but times change. In the end this is just a game.
A kid who steals a candy once should not be cast out of society. A person who bots once should not be thrown out right away. Help our community stay alive longer.
The full party bots, on the other hand, should just get an IP ban.
Thats the most stupid thing ive heard, they should be banned for botting simple as. No warnings straight BAN. As for IP Bans they dont happen for 1 simple reason, it makes it harder to catch the botters FACT.
ip bans dont happen cos 99,99% of us have dynamic ips. U can change your ip by just reseting your router or disconnecting your usb modem. Every 1 or 2 days ip gets reset by the isp anyway.
I agree it's silly and stupid suggestion but people get stupid and do stupid things. They should be given the benefit of the doubt. A seven day ban gives someone time to think and go "Oh snap, I did get caught!"
Isn't it silly that our criminal justice system allows murderers to go free with little or no time? Same with bots that make it from level 1 to noble/hero. Isn't it silly some people are released from jail because they are found to be innocent later? Same with people who get banned because they were "botting" but according to them they are innocent. I give the benefit of the doubt here. Isn't it stupid gameguard blocks legit programs from working but does not block bot apps?
The point is that a seven day ban will hopefully scare someone from doing it again. In so doing a customer hopefully stays and keeps paying a monthly fee.
whooow. I hate to break out the rule book on this one but the person I quoted called no one in particular a cheater. They said that someone in particular was ambivalent to cheating yet complained about it. (Yet is was removed by the true authority of the forums so...)
Listen guys/gals I know most people still want bots gone. I know that some people just don’t care anymore. I know that there are many that have just given up and started using bots because they are "tired of falling behind."
Everyday I try to remove as many of our automated friends as possible. I also answer many of the e-mails that are sent in from ex-customers asking why they are banned. They never thought they would get caught because everyone else does it and never gets caught. Well except when they get caught...
I am not asking our customers to stop this problem. It is my job to stop (minimize is more like it.) I am asking our customers to stand up against this problem. Don't let is be alright. If a friend or clan member is botting, let them know it bothers you and that it is cheating.
I don’t mind being called names. I don't mind people complaining about my inaction. Why? Because it means they still care. I am bothered by folks that are ambivalent to the whole thing and don't mind if their friends cheat and will report bots or complain about them only when they mess with their plans.
"My friend only bots to keep up. It is all those farmers in the catacombs that are the real problem." Sorry you can't crack open pandora's box to just take a peek. It is either open or it is closed.
I must apologize for taking this thread off course. Hopefully it will remain on course and I shall get back to removing bots.
Thanks
~spam
Look spam simply put.
Ncsoft has never employed enough people to combat the problem. I would say 85% of people on kain who are normal (not farmer) players. Would use a bot program to exp their characters, that is in the top clans which make up 80% of the players on kain.
Back in c3, you would have been lucky to see that number at 20%. The lack of "bot banning" has become the main issue, as you said, people are now falling behind with the STUPID grinding that is needed to level 79/80 or w/e, and people have not been getting banned with the lack of employee's that ncsoft employs to combat the problem.
Currently the stance taken by ncsoft is really half *****. I understand YOU are doing the best you can, but its not good when the company wont give YOU the people under you to combat this.
Now it brings me to the question, what do we find acceptable, or more important what will ncsoft find acceptable to ban now a days.
As we have seen, you have been authorised to ban "AFK" botters, i wont go into detail about how u guys do it cos that ruins it.
You have no authority to ban someone whose on IG and who is 100% active or watching their char from what i can see.
Honest opinion of me, you should go after the farmers the hardest then go take out the real players (but there goes your profits as a company and ncsoft dosnt want it).
The amount of farmers in this game and people turning to botting because of the lack of in game support and banning from c3-c5 made it unprofitable for ncsoft to ban all the bots, which it still isnt.
I can understand as a company why you wont employ more staff to lose you revenue.
Thats just my opinion but i think ncsoft should take either a STRONG stance on botting or none at all, not a half ***** approach like is currently in effect.
I agree it's silly and stupid suggestion but people get stupid and do stupid things. They should be given the benefit of the doubt. A seven day ban gives someone time to think and go "Oh snap, I did get caught!"
Isn't it silly that our criminal justice system allows murderers to go free with little or no time? Same with bots that make it from level 1 to noble/hero. Isn't it silly some people are released from jail because they are found to be innocent later? Same with people who get banned because they were "botting" but according to them they are innocent. I give the benefit of the doubt here. Isn't it stupid gameguard blocks legit programs from working but does not block bot apps?
The point is that a seven day ban will hopefully scare someone from doing it again. In so doing a customer hopefully stays and keeps paying a monthly fee.
So basically you are saying if sum1 bots from lvl 1 to 75, then get caught gets a 7 day ban and warned not to do then thats ok they now have a lvl 75 toon they can play legit? LOL Dont be silly huh.
Botting is again the rules. break the rules you get banned its quiet simple. There is no grey area's its stated in black and white, Ppl that cheat get banned.
Botting is again the rules. break the rules you get banned its quiet simple. There is no grey area's its stated in black and white, Ppl that cheat get banned.
Be realistic. Is this what really happens? This is what is supposed to happen. If we hand more real players then NC could afford to have more frequenst farmer bans. As it stands NC is a FOR PROFIT company. They make money through subscriptions to the game. Someone has to pay HGMSpam's paycheck, someone has to pay for the server to stay up, someone has to pay for future upgrades.
A 7 day ban will hopefully scare people to stop botting. In the end we retain more real players. It's true a GM could walk all over the catacombs and ban every 9 man party but guess what happens after that? Revenues go down and people start getting cut. No work, no pay. A fine balance has to be struck.
This isn't an ideal world. Do you want more farmers or more regular players? Players bring in more players as they tell friends about the game. Later casual players still maintain a payment plan even if they login 2-3 times a month just to chat with friends.
Hard core botters will make 1-75 in a month with one toon or another. What I want is to retain someone who just happened to get stupid and thought he/she would not get caught.
If we hand more real players then NC could afford to have more frequenst farmer bans.
At one point L2 did have more players. Obviously I can't speak for everyone that left but I exited because of botting, but also Ebaying. At that point I wanted to keep up with the Jones' and the more I thought about the issue the more I realized that I couldn't keep up. Fighting the 24/7 professional teams for grinding locations, knocking out the levels legitimately and accumulating the gear that put me on par with others around my level? Pretty much impossible for anyone unless they can play with their eyes closed.
Cheating? Not an option. I like playing video games, not personally becoming part of the problem.
Tailchaser, this is not new. I left for two years and NCSoft still acts like they have a handle on it and the situation is under control. Whatever they have done, has not worked in the past, does not work now, and given their track record it will not work in the future.
One poster got it half right. Drastic action was needed...but it should have taken place years ago before lots of legit players got fed up and left. While I sympathize with NCSoft-NA having to deal with the problem of plugging holes in the ****, they made the **** and they control the virtual world that the **** resides in.
Maybe with another three years they'll figure all of this out. Maybe in another three years I'll be bored with whatever game I play next and come back just to see if it's true.
Well imo, i think it's gotten to the point where reguardless of where this ends up going.. from a business standpoint, if you neutristically look at it, either the game will continue to worsen for botting and cheating until a breaking point is met where everyone has pretty much gotten bored with it all. Cheating only goes so far before everyone steps in line, and the only people able to contend are indeed the cheaters, and from what i've seen, just about EVERY single person that has a 76+ and subbed 76+ are using it constantly. Technically we are getting very very close to that breaking point. Plenty of them quit, move onto a different game, a massive reduction in sales for the bot farmers due the massive leave instantly killing a considerably HUGE amount of the playerbase and income... while still not solving the problem completely, and keeping other outsiders uninterested.
OR
using a better controlled method that would mostly solve the problem (drastic)... restablish confidence in ncsoft lineage2 for the other either player base that left previously, or/and newer ones, while eliminating majority of the threat and continue to eliminate it if they keep the simialre drastic measures applied
It really ups peoples hopes and re-energizes them when they see a huge change.... specially posted all over the new forums
I'm passionately anti-bot and anti-cheat in general for multiplayer games. I don't think anyone cares in singleplayer games since hey, whatever makes the game more fun for you there. I could rant and rave on why I'm against cheating in multiplayer games, but hopefully there aren't anyone who disagrees with me so it shouldn't be necessary.
I've been on an anti-bot crusade since prelude, and I'm afraid I'm with the "it's still a problem today just as much as it was back then, so I disagree that nc has it under control" crowd.
I have no doubt that gm's are working hard to ban them. I've seen first hand periods where the world is relatively bot-free, and I've seen people complain and moan as they get banned for botting. It makes me feel better to see Spam active in this thread, I really appreciate that, but I don't see botting being combated efficiently anywhere soon, and I would be surprised if it was anywhere in the future. What is needed is an effective means of filtering out the bot clients upon login, a process which updates frequently to make it hard - if not just simply tedious - for botters to keep up. I'm not a programmer so I've no idea how feasable this is, all I know is that I love L2, but the sheer amount of botting and cheating because "everyone does it anyway", "it's not possible to compete otherwise", and "well I don't have time to play all day" is just depressing.
I don't bot, none of my friends bot, and all clans I've ever been in will kick anyone who are proved to be botting, and I would leave the alliance if it was any different. More often than not do I feel we're a minority when you see how blatant some people bot for months and years (I never assume people bot just because they're high level, I'm talking about people who admit and brag about it) without getting banned.
Plenty of them quit, move onto a different game, a massive reduction in sales for the bot farmers due the massive leave instantly killing a considerably HUGE amount of the playerbase and income
I find that comical in a way....The botters are technically destroying the playerbase that is making them profit.
No other way to put it they are a cancer. I just wonder if the cancer can be killed without killing the host. :(
Botting is again the rules. break the rules you get banned its quiet simple. There is no grey area's its stated in black and white, Ppl that cheat get banned.
Be realistic. Is this what really happens? This is what is supposed to happen. If we hand more real players then NC could afford to have more frequenst farmer bans. As it stands NC is a FOR PROFIT company. They make money through subscriptions to the game. Someone has to pay HGMSpam's paycheck, someone has to pay for the server to stay up, someone has to pay for future upgrades.
A 7 day ban will hopefully scare people to stop botting. In the end we retain more real players. It's true a GM could walk all over the catacombs and ban every 9 man party but guess what happens after that? Revenues go down and people start getting cut. No work, no pay. A fine balance has to be struck.
This isn't an ideal world. Do you want more farmers or more regular players? Players bring in more players as they tell friends about the game. Later casual players still maintain a payment plan even if they login 2-3 times a month just to chat with friends.
Hard core botters will make 1-75 in a month with one toon or another. What I want is to retain someone who just happened to get stupid and thought he/she would not get caught.
How u gonna tell the difference between sum1 who was stupid and sum1 who bots to sell accounts and adena, its against rules its bannable. Accept it or dont thats the way it is, and yes BOTS do get banned FACT.
A clannie caught another clan member botting in my clan. I came home from work confirmed it, we changed his title Imbottingkillme
came back in 10 minute sure enough he was dead and so was his botted buffer. Waited another 10 minutes no response from him so me and the other clannie picked up all his drops I kicked him from clan and had my whole clan report him.
He was banned and cursed me off on our forums later that day. If people would police their own clans and petition GMs after people are kicked then botting will not be so rampant. I think ncsoft takes a petition from a clan leader saying a clan member was just kicked for botting moves that to the top of their list because clan members would normally stick together.
How u gonna tell the difference between sum1 who was stupid and sum1 who bots to sell accounts and adena, its against rules its bannable. Accept it or dont thats the way it is, and yes BOTS do get banned FACT.
It's not up to you or me to decide if someone was stupid. It's up to the person botting. He or she got busted and the personal reaction would be "Oh geeze, I got caught. I better not do it again after my 7 days are up." Yes bots get banned but there's plenty out there that have not been banned either.
I don't know if this still applies but way back it was said that GMs know who bots and they watch those people. You bot and never do it again and it's forgiven. Keep doing it and you get banned. Instead of watching them slap em with a 7 day and let them know they've been served.
How u gonna tell the difference between sum1 who was stupid and sum1 who bots to sell accounts and adena, its against rules its bannable. Accept it or dont thats the way it is, and yes BOTS do get banned FACT.
It's not up to you or me to decide if someone was stupid. It's up to the person botting. He or she got busted and the personal reaction would be "Oh geeze, I got caught. I better not do it again after my 7 days are up." Yes bots get banned but there's plenty out there that have not been banned either.
I don't know if this still applies but way back it was said that GMs know who bots and they watch those people. You bot and never do it again and it's forgiven. Keep doing it and you get banned. Instead of watching them slap em with a 7 day and let them know they've been served.
You suggest to ease the work of professionnal botters in order to hope players who were wrong understand their mistakes but return playing honestly and still pay.
I'm sorry, but not only it's a wishful thinking, but it encourages botting : "let's see what level I can reach before the 7 days ban" will tell you the guy you want to save. And of course professional botters making real money in the process will stay longer. I'm not sure we need that. Do you need it?
We will NOT be having many NEW players come into the game AT ALL because they are so far behind, the only new people who get high enough level to be a factor, now a days come from priv servers and bot their way up.
The cancer has already spread to the whole body, its ready to kill the person off, just waiting for the wrong move to be made. again.
How u gonna tell the difference between sum1 who was stupid and sum1 who bots to sell accounts and adena, its against rules its bannable. Accept it or dont thats the way it is, and yes BOTS do get banned FACT.
It's not up to you or me to decide if someone was stupid. It's up to the person botting. He or she got busted and the personal reaction would be "Oh geeze, I got caught. I better not do it again after my 7 days are up." Yes bots get banned but there's plenty out there that have not been banned either.
I don't know if this still applies but way back it was said that GMs know who bots and they watch those people. You bot and never do it again and it's forgiven. Keep doing it and you get banned. Instead of watching them slap em with a 7 day and let them know they've been served.
You suggest to ease the work of professionnal botters in order to hope players who were wrong understand their mistakes but return playing honestly and still pay.
I'm sorry, but not only it's a wishful thinking, but it encourages botting : "let's see what level I can reach before the 7 days ban" will tell you the guy you want to save. And of course professional botters making real money in the process will stay longer. I'm not sure we need that. Do you need it?
Hey! THis has been said before and I will say it again as i believe in this idea: Make it so the bot clients (even the ingame ones) cannot connect to the servers. Seems pretty simple as i know it's very common on private servers. Sucks that illegal servers are ahead of us with these things.
PS: (a lil off topic but i wanna know) I heard today that there are some licensed private servers out there. 2 of them being DEX (dexternet) and BFDR (Battle for dawn-Reborn) Is this true or just bull ?
Hey! THis has been said before and I will say it again as i believe in this idea: Make it so the bot clients (even the ingame ones) cannot connect to the servers. Seems pretty simple as i know it's very common on private servers. Sucks that illegal servers are ahead of us with these things.
PS: (a lil off topic but i wanna know) I heard today that there are some licensed private servers out there. 2 of them being DEX (dexternet) and BFDR (Battle for dawn-Reborn) Is this true or just bull ?
I know very little about private servers, but I have an impression, from visiting one web site, that they are run as basically a volunteer effort, on the part of the people who staff the servers. Assuming that is true, that would explain why you see some things on private servers that you don't see on official servers.
All thier doing is changing the protocal version from the server and client to something other then what is currently (and for a very long time) being used. If the protocal version from the client does not match the servers protocal, it will not allow the connection. Kinda like many online FPS games, when a major patch is released, you have to update your game in order to log into an updated server, or you cant.
The simplest thing for NCSoft to do would be to change the protocal version every maintanance period (its only a version number). No, it would not keep the automated clients away for long. They will probably figure out what the version number is within days. But losing out on days of being able to generate income every week WILL hurt them.
Unfortunetly, afaik, this will not work with the in game version of the program since it uses the original client. This is where GG sould be doing it thing, but fails miserably since the program cant detect the cheats, yet successfully disable legitimate programs with ease.
We will NOT be having many NEW players come into the game AT ALL because they are so far behind, the only new people who get high enough level to be a factor, now a days come from priv servers and bot their way up.
The cancer has already spread to the whole body, its ready to kill the person off, just waiting for the wrong move to be made. again.
The list off people who hitted 80 legit is rather short thou and anyways they could always decide to just ban all botters w/e, close 4 servers & merge the few players left into one of the remaining servers.
I'm pretty much aware of how wide spread this cancer is but that doesn't mean it's a good thing or something that should be accepted as being "normal".
Anyways those that do bot should "see the signs" and refind the old ways or accept the consequences.
People who can't handle the grind as it is without botting shouldn't be playing this game in the first place.
yesterday trained again from bots, just becouse we refused to leave the only room we could manage to get from bots in 75+ catas. so whole party had to discover again how helpless you are agains bots and theyr owners... they do what they please and laugh ...
it is already really, really, reallly silly, not getting a bit silly...
yesterday trained again from bots, just becouse we refused to leave the only room we could manage to get from bots in 75+ catas. so whole party had to discover again how helpless you are agains bots and theyr owners... they do what they please and laugh ...
it is already really, really, reallly silly, not getting a bit silly...
Reasons I am rolling out my Destro again. Got trained 1 too many times on my other toons. When they train my Destro, or any group he is in we all just laugh. At 1 point we think they ran out of mobs to feed the blender because we didnt see them for a few minutes. It is getting rather rediculous though.
A clannie caught another clan member botting in my clan. I came home from work confirmed it, we changed his title Imbottingkillme
came back in 10 minute sure enough he was dead and so was his botted buffer. Waited another 10 minutes no response from him so me and the other clannie picked up all his drops I kicked him from clan and had my whole clan report him.
He was banned and cursed me off on our forums later that day. If people would police their own clans and petition GMs after people are kicked then botting will not be so rampant. I think ncsoft takes a petition from a clan leader saying a clan member was just kicked for botting moves that to the top of their list because clan members would normally stick together.
Just my 2 cents.
We actually did the same exact thing just this week. We caught a clannie botting.....we were suspicious to start with....got a pm from a friend who was around where they were and there they were, botting away with auto response and everything. You could type in the word "bot" and both would respond "no" and "not me" EVERY SINGLE TIME...you could do it in shout too and they would reply exactly the same every single time.
Unfortunately, we could not kick him while he was in "combat mode" so one of our guys had to kill him just for us to boot him out of the clan. Obviously, we washed our clannie quickly and there were several folks in the area helping and keeping an eye on him until the Red faded off.
We ALL reported these guys to the GM's and at the present writings, we have not seen hide nor hair of them. We're not sure if they got banned, got mad and quit playing or are in hiding.
My point is if you suspect, DO something about it. Our clan will NOT tolerate it. And it sent a message to the rest of our clannies....."if you bot, you will die and you will be reported"
Botting is again the rules. break the rules you get banned its quiet simple. There is no grey area's its stated in black and white, Ppl that cheat get banned.
People get temp banned for breaking other rules, like a 72 hour ban for using bad language etc. It is meant to serve as a warning and discourage people from doing it again. A similar system for botters probably wouldn't be a terrible thing. Just make the ban longer like the 7 days that other poster suggested and have the policy enforced about 3 million times better than it currently is and it could actually help.
Although with that said had they took action before 50% of the player base left due to their neglect we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Botting is again the rules. break the rules you get banned its quiet simple. There is no grey area's its stated in black and white, Ppl that cheat get banned.
People get temp banned for breaking other rules, like a 72 hour ban for using bad language etc. It is meant to serve as a warning and discourage people from doing it again. A similar system for botters probably wouldn't be a terrible thing. Just make the ban longer like the 7 days that other poster suggested and have the policy enforced about 3 million times better than it currently is and it could actually help.
Although with that said had they took action before 50% of the player base left due to their neglect we wouldn't be having this conversation.
I get what you're saying. I've heard that being caught botting by GMs isn't always a permanent forever ban. But I don't see how being more lenient to botters will make them less prevalent.
That is completely incorrect and i can tell you why. As from stated from NC.
Bots = Credit card fraud
I dout Ncsoft has to pay back the money. imagin if all little companys that been hit by card fraud had to pay the money back. you would have a massive outa business sale. Credit card companys have insurance to combat credit card fraud. They dont harm the buisness that reindered services befor the card was reported stolen. Befor credit card fraud protection was around it was the card owners responsablity to covery charges made. Its not much diffrent today accept the card companys insurance fraud covers the bill, and then passes it along to its customers. Sure the guy being arrested if ever convicted will owe the money to the company. If the store has not recvied funds yet due to delay of transfer and the card pops up stolen after the company will eat the lost then.
At most if caught during payment Ncsoft loses 14.99$ but the account is closed. so they ar enot losing much but the continied service on a bad card. Once they collect the money from the card its thers.
I find it intrsting the cards clear for the first payment and then some provided is a bad card. Is it not the customer responsibility to report there card missing? :) your card report comes in each month if someone is making charges. Not to mention everyone has the ability to get a printed report from a bank sooner.
i find the stolen credit card idea pretty hard to believe. this is something companies in every industry deal with, it should not take them 1+ months to realise that they arent being paid. they charge 15$ when you sign up, if they dont get it within a few business days the offender would be autobanned AND they would be in trouble from authorities other than just NCSoft. if credit card companies are refusing to tell NCSoft if a credit card is stolen or not, they can just re-evaluate what credit cards they accept.
Check if your credit card number is stolen or not: http://roger.noir.sk/rozne/card_jpg.jpg :D
Talk about social engineering. How many people would fall for it?
my post is based on that ncsoft takes 0 lose either if the card is legit or not. For them to claim there checking for fraud is just a PR thing. Its not the small business mans buisness to check for fraud once the card clears and proper id is provided.
"KingdomForCoin" i tend to lean towards your thought. I swipe my card at any store if its over charged it wont work. As far as them banning someone thats a no no in there rule book lol. The bots ive reported have been in the dungeons for months they must have a pretty good bad credit card. Or how about this thought the game company milks the card untill its reported? <-- if thats true then they dont really check for fraud lol.
Crawlerin as far as people falling for ******ed online scams. In my option they deserved to be taken for everything. Credit card companys and your bank would never ask for info in a non-secure e-mail address. I dont even do anything by the phone, i walk into the bank if anything needs to be cleared up. If you still belive the e-mail is from your bank, call them directly on the 1-800 number.
And: if you still want to give your number freely online , You can kick down donations to my charity. "The keep Steve on L2 fund" lol when you run by my player just say you donated and i will say " Hello " to you lol.
from what i heard, the farmer companys use japanese and chinese ncsoft game time cards which are severly less to suit the markets but still work on all ncsoft products such as NA l2. Thats what i heard neway
sorry, but if it is a stolen credit card, the user of that card has at least a month to report it being stolen or used without their permission. I know my statement comes in the last part of the month. I ususally look it over the following weekend. When my AMEX got took, they charged about 5k in jewerly on it up in Chicago the same weekend I was drinking beer in Cincy.
Now I caughter that almost a full 3 weeks later. Then the CC company withdrawls the payment from the vendor and the vendor is left with nada.
Stolen outright and tagged as such, should revoke that instant.
And try your up to the limit cc on a gas pump in the us. It does not call home to check if you have funds, it calls up and asks if it was stolen only, then gives you up to 50.00 of gas and off you go.
You can easily overcharge your card on gas and not be denied until the next month.
The real fraud is paying 15$ amonth and no one inforcing the rules. On one hand you hear about credit card fruad, and then there is game fraud to the customer. which is wrose in this game?
Game needs to take 1$ off the top of the 15$ amonth and hire people to walk around in the game. No more bot responses, time for live responses.
sorry, but if it is a stolen credit card, the user of that card has at least a month to report it being stolen or used without their permission. I know my statement comes in the last part of the month. I ususally look it over the following weekend. When my AMEX got took, they charged about 5k in jewerly on it up in Chicago the same weekend I was drinking beer in Cincy.
Now I caughter that almost a full 3 weeks later. Then the CC company withdrawls the payment from the vendor and the vendor is left with nada.
Stolen outright and tagged as such, should revoke that instant.
And try your up to the limit cc on a gas pump in the us. It does not call home to check if you have funds, it calls up and asks if it was stolen only, then gives you up to 50.00 of gas and off you go.
You can easily overcharge your card on gas and not be denied until the next month.
im gonna go steal a MULTITUDE of credit cards from myself, and see how much free gas i can get before someone figures it out. there are, simply put, not enough stolen credit card scenarrios in the entire world, to support one per bot, in any online game. but the real question is. how many hands does it take to wield a 2-hander in texas ? (http://boards.lineage2.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=general&Number=694006&Sea rchpage=1&Main=693668)
there are, simply put, not enough stolen credit card scenarrios in the whole world, to support one per bot, in any online game. but the real question is. how many hands does it take to wield a 2-hander in texas?
It only takes 1. I live in Texas and wield a 1-handed, 2-hander on a daily basis, its those 2-handed, 3-handers that are wielded with 4 hands that you hve to watch for.
And there probably are enough stolen cards to support ALOT of the bots. Chances are they are paying for 5 or 6 accounts with 1 card. And why cut into your profits from adena sales if you are a farmer company, when you can just use a stolen card. (I seriously hope they are stealing the card numbers of their customers, that would be classic)
there are, simply put, not enough stolen credit card scenarrios in the whole world, to support one per bot, in any online game. but the real question is. how many hands does it take to wield a 2-hander in texas?
It only takes 1. I live in Texas and wield a 1-handed, 2-hander on a daily basis, its those 2-handed, 3-handers that are wielded with 4 hands that you hve to watch for.
And there probably are enough stolen cards to support ALOT of the bots. Chances are they are paying for 5 or 6 accounts with 1 card. And why cut into your profits from adena sales if you are a farmer company, when you can just use a stolen card. (I seriously hope they are stealing the card numbers of their customers, that would be classic)
that would be too easy to catch.
if these serious farmers were smart they would not be using Direct to net CC. they would be using Paypal or western union MC. this would allow them to keep personal info tied to a different bank and allow the "business" transactions to take place in its own little card number. Western Union also does not keep account infos on hand and will only share these infos with a court order.
I think the adena sellers, outside of lin2, have nothing to worry about legally.
No one goes to jail for buying/selling adena, anymore than you go to jail when you cheat at Monopoly to steal your sister's hotels.
The adena/gold/gil/etc sellers, from what I've read, buy from farmers and sell to ebayer-players. They only need a few accounts to warehouse their wealth.
k now we're gettin' somewhere. so now Bot Lords are using stolen credit cards to buy CoH timecasrds (because L2 timecards are discontinued) to play a game for one month so they can report their own credit card as stolen?
k now we're gettin' somewhere. so now Bot Lords are using stolen credit cards to buy CoH timecasrds (because L2 timecards are discontinued) to play a game for one month so they can report their own credit card as stolen?
Yeah now your on to it!
These bot lords are also fully funded by the Bush Administration in a attempt to cause a market crash, resulting in a depression so he can announce a national emergency and wield unlimited authority!
A clannie caught another clan member botting in my clan. I came home from work confirmed it, we changed his title Imbottingkillme
came back in 10 minute sure enough he was dead and so was his botted buffer. Waited another 10 minutes no response from him so me and the other clannie picked up all his drops I kicked him from clan and had my whole clan report him.
He was banned and cursed me off on our forums later that day. If people would police their own clans and petition GMs after people are kicked then botting will not be so rampant. I think ncsoft takes a petition from a clan leader saying a clan member was just kicked for botting moves that to the top of their list because clan members would normally stick together.
Just my 2 cents.
I was a clan leader of a small clan. I kicked 3 ppl for botting and I petitioned them for about 10 times each one the last ~6 months.
Lately (about 2 weeks ago) I heard one of the 3 of them was banned while all these 3 guys were bottng together in the same party (plus their bot buffers).
Now the 2 of them who arent banned can keep playing their 76+ toons without need to bot again (since they have equiped their toons and have enought adena now), just because they werent banned when they were first petitioned.
Tarun: What is needed is an effective means of filtering out the bot clients upon login, a process which updates frequently to make it hard - if not just simply tedious - for botters to keep up. I'm not a programmer so I've no idea how feasable this is
all that is needed to do this is make a record on the server of the original l2.exe md5 and sha1 hashes* and check them server-side on login.
*its VERY hard to duplicate a hash, as the slightest change to the program changes the hash entirely.
edit: forgot to add:
so to speak, the hash is like a finger-print of the program. the only problem being, on EVERY update, the server has will have to be updated with the new clients hash, which isnt that hard.
The only thing I don't understand (not a programmer before I begin) is if it is as simple as people say it is (and I'm sure in most cases they know what they are talking about) why do NC not implement the same.
I know many people claim $ but looking at it from a logical point of view if the bots are &*%^ing off real players and in many cases causing them to leave it surely can't be profitable for NC to ignore the problem to this extent. What is the point to a server full bots and no players - the bots will leave too with no custom.
I am presuming there is far more to it than we realise.
How does NCNK cope with it or do they not have the same problem in the quantities we have?
Ok but does anyone know if they have this same problem, and if so to what extent. I'd be interested to know if there is a vast difference between the two.
last time i was logged into a NC KR lineage2 game, i visted 3 servers, 1 of which i didn't run into a single bot (i had a higher lvl player walk me around a bit and get me into places gotta thank that person, luckily they had msn cause i couldn't read a **** thing)..... 2 others i think i saw 1 to 3 bot groups in a rather non player visited location... ... they were reported.. apparently aren't all that common.
last time i was logged into a NC KR lineage2 game, i visted 3 servers, 1 of which i didn't run into a single bot (i had a higher lvl player walk me around a bit and get me into places gotta thank that person, luckily they had msn cause i couldn't read a **** thing)..... 2 others i think i saw 1 to 3 bot groups in a rather non player visited location... ... they were reported.. apparently aren't all that common.
That is more the attitude of the players though. From the get go, the korean players have policed the servers reporting anyone suspected of botting. Here, the top clans on almost all server probably have 45-50% of their toons that were botted. It is almost accepted by the majority of alliances. They know their members do it and they basically say, so, every one else does it to(I had a clan leader tell me that when I confronted him about his members botting once, big powerful clan, dont figure). I have seen clan forums that have a section DEDICATED t oselling of accounts and items for real $$. the GM's can do all in their power, but unless the playerbase takes a different stance, the NA servers will continue to be overridden.
actually you know it's bad when you join a clan.... and they tell you to go to thier website..
and the first thing listed in thier rules is that you MUST use "program names here" or you will be booted from the clan.. and that you MUST meet certain lvls with a certain time or else booted, basically botting is required...
last time i was logged into a NC KR lineage2 game, i visted 3 servers, 1 of which i didn't run into a single bot (i had a higher lvl player walk me around a bit and get me into places gotta thank that person, luckily they had msn cause i couldn't read a **** thing)..... 2 others i think i saw 1 to 3 bot groups in a rather non player visited location... ... they were reported.. apparently aren't all that common.
That is more the attitude of the players though. From the get go, the korean players have policed the servers reporting anyone suspected of botting. Here, the top clans on almost all server probably have 45-50% of their toons that were botted. It is almost accepted by the majority of alliances. They know their members do it and they basically say, so, every one else does it to(I had a clan leader tell me that when I confronted him about his members botting once, big powerful clan, dont figure). I have seen clan forums that have a section DEDICATED t oselling of accounts and items for real $$. the GM's can do all in their power, but unless the playerbase takes a different stance, the NA servers will continue to be overridden.
I do agree that, currently, the NA/EU servers tend to have the attitude of "screw it". However, this was not always the case. Back in the early days of L2, botting was not that common :eek:. Most players would petition the bots. As time went on and people stopped seeing results from the reports they made, they gave up hope.
If the police stopped responding to emergency calls or took hours to respond, would you take the time to call them? What would it take to get you to a point where you would rely on them again?
For me, I would need to see them being proactive. I would need to SEE them taking action.
it's really unfortuneate that ncsoft could not hire people out of thier own homes.... or manage to setup a system to allow volunteers whom have had a thorough background check and are exceptionally neutral to help out with the issues and provide a form of hope.
I suspect that NCSoft could hit the bots faster if they had more employees doing it, but that would mean that we would have to pay more for our monthly fees so they can pay these new salaries.
One bot hunter = 35,000 salary + benefits = $40,000
One per server = $400,000
One on duty all the time on each server, would mean 4 employees/server (for weekends, holidays, etc, 8 hour days and 24 hours in a day) = $1,200,000 / year
So I suggest that anyone complaining about NC support also volunteers to pay $50/month instead of $15.
I'm sure ncsoft would be able to manage reliable.. and under legal terms setup a volunteers that would be glad to spend a few hours at a time to forcefully remove these players.... and also track them down.. AND even provide a visual "SEEN" perspective of perhaps what could be called "LGM"..... lowergamemaster....
i dont find it excessive, actually, there is addition expense, losing revenue from the accounts they ban would increase, so the perfect world would prob cost us $50 a month
i dont find it excessive, actually, there is addition expense, losing revenue from the accounts they ban would increase, so the perfect world would prob cost us $50 a month
and the increase in revenue from new subscribers...
i dont find it excessive, actually, there is addition expense, losing revenue from the accounts they ban would increase, so the perfect world would prob cost us $50 a month
and the increase in revenue from new subscribers...
I suspect that NCSoft could hit the bots faster if they had more employees doing it, but that would mean that we would have to pay more for our monthly fees so they can pay these new salaries.
One bot hunter = 35,000 salary + benefits = $40,000
One per server = $400,000
One on duty all the time on each server, would mean 4 employees/server (for weekends, holidays, etc, 8 hour days and 24 hours in a day) = $1,200,000 / year
So I suggest that anyone complaining about NC support also volunteers to pay $50/month instead of $15.
Uh-huh.
Pardon me mensa, but if it's so hard and so costly then how do other games manage it so well? No answers? It's still the players fault/responsibility? Awesome. Maybe that's the tact that NCSoft-NA needs to take, "Customers! It's your fault and you need to fix it! Because we can't seem to do it..."
Indeed, that's a lovely tangent you're going off towards. The subscribers are the problem so charge them more or tell them to shut up. Just because other MMORPG's have solved or mitigated the problem to the point where it is a non-issue that doesn't mean that NCSoft should compete with them on that level($15 subscription fees). Yep, they should charge more than three times that and then that would solve it.
I guess the previous three years wasn't enough time and they just never had enough money to throw at the problem. Meh, maybe they will have better luck with Lineage3. That seems to be moving along swimmingly...
i dont find it excessive, actually, there is addition expense, losing revenue from the accounts they ban would increase, so the perfect world would prob cost us $50 a month
and the increase in revenue from new subscribers...
from all that advertising..........
coming from players that are no longer embarassed to show the game off to friends. I dont know about you, but I know my friends would laugh in my face if they knew how many bots are in this game.
Would you invite friends over if you had roaches covering your floor?
That would cost money, and there in the business to make money. the more bots they have the more money they make. Simple math, I saw word the new upgrade is going to inforce a even higher adena sink rate onto the legit players. Which in turn will increase the level of adena buyers for there coffers. Or even increase profits due to more players buying extra accounts. <-- very smart from a buisness point of view.
Reguardless of the business.. there is a point where to much business can kill a company and to little.. will also..
specially with such an unreliable costumer base as bot accounts...
Anyone that has a brain in thier head will know that with any set guidelines, that while the rules can be broken, that consistantly breakign the rules to gain profits usually leads to an insanely harsh crash that hurts everyone and even spreads out enough...
we don't have to start bringing up enron or similare company garbage
I suspect that NCSoft could hit the bots faster if they had more employees doing it, but that would mean that we would have to pay more for our monthly fees so they can pay these new salaries.
One bot hunter = 35,000 salary + benefits = $40,000
One per server = $400,000
One on duty all the time on each server, would mean 4 employees/server (for weekends, holidays, etc, 8 hour days and 24 hours in a day) = $1,200,000 / year
So I suggest that anyone complaining about NC support also volunteers to pay $50/month instead of $15.
Uh-huh.
Pardon me mensa, but if it's so hard and so costly then how do other games manage it so well?
The crash is already here, massive inflation but no hope in site. Ncsoft solution to harm the avg player, but wont go after the botters. Each update they act like they want to increase botters/adena buyers. You and i know if we were gm for 48hrs all servers would be cleaned during them hrs.
I report bad behavor all the time and weeks later still see the same automative players. I dont think its because NA players dont do anything, i think its because NA Ncsoft dose not give a ****. Thats my point a view sence ive busted my Azz reporting them to see nothing done. <-- once a person gets that kinda signal from a service the system has failed them.
i dont find it excessive, actually, there is addition expense, losing revenue from the accounts they ban would increase, so the perfect world would prob cost us $50 a month
and the increase in revenue from new subscribers...
from all that advertising..........
coming from players that are no longer embarassed to show the game off to friends. I dont know about you, but I know my friends would laugh in my face if they knew how many bots are in this game.
Would you invite friends over if you had roaches covering your floor?
I just got my brother involved in L2, getting him away from WoW.
There are bots, yes, do i condone them, no, do i lose sleep because the game i have played for over 3 years has bots, no
I even "showed" the game off to a friend last weekend that plays EQ2, he asked about bots, i told him same thing i tell everyone, "There are bots, but not where i hunt, and if they are, i "move" them with trains"
I suspect that NCSoft could hit the bots faster if they had more employees doing it, but that would mean that we would have to pay more for our monthly fees so they can pay these new salaries.
One bot hunter = 35,000 salary + benefits = $40,000
One per server = $400,000
One on duty all the time on each server, would mean 4 employees/server (for weekends, holidays, etc, 8 hour days and 24 hours in a day) = $1,200,000 / year
So I suggest that anyone complaining about NC support also volunteers to pay $50/month instead of $15.
Uh-huh.
Pardon me mensa, but if it's so hard and so costly then how do other games manage it so well?
Name a mmog worth playing that doesn't have RMT.
I would do it for free each day for 2 hours. Now send them a petiton saying you would do it for free they will tell you to goto hell in many ways.
I just got my brother involved in L2, getting him away from WoW.
There are bots, yes, do i condone them, no, do i lose sleep because the game i have played for over 3 years has bots, no
I even "showed" the game off to a friend last weekend that plays EQ2, he asked about bots, i told him same thing i tell everyone, "There are bots, but not where i hunt, and if they are, i "move" them with trains"
And obviously there are enough people out there that are not embarassed about the bot situation. Thats why we see loads of people coming into the game every day.
I'm thinking you didn't read my post, or didn't understand it.
I'm thinking the exact same thing. See, I said...
Just because other MMORPG's have solved or mitigated the problem to the point where it is a non-issue that doesn't mean that NCSoft should compete with them on that level($15 subscription fees).
And then you set up a nifty strawman fallacy with...
Name a mmog worth playing that doesn't have RMT.
That doesn't have RMT at all? Wow, setting the bar a little low there aren't we champ? Why not just ask for a virgin birth?
I think most players would be satisfied if NCSoft was as successful as Blizzard, or SOE. That doesn't mean stopping it entirely, it means mitigating or attempting to take the RMT out of the hands of 3rd parties. Gold selling is a non-issue in WoW. Pretty much the best thing people can buy with credit card purchased gold is an epic flying mount. SoE? They have made attempts to manage the selling of items by embracing and regulating it.
So what was the only way you could win this debate? You asked for a game that had no RMT. Wonderful logic there. NCSoft is doing a bad job, so the only way to deflect the issue away from the fundamentals of the discussion is to set the bar so high that the outcome is never in doubt by asking for everyone else to produce something that can't exist: a popular game where no one has ever offered anything of real life value for an item or account.
NCSoft can just turn everything into instances, and that way you won't see the bots. Wow! Suddenly everything looks so clean and special, just like WoW!
I'd rather know a problem exists by seeing it than pretend it doesn't. I can fight it that way. Denial is a sad, sad thing.
NCSoft can just turn everything into instances, and that way you won't see the bots. Wow! Suddenly everything looks so clean and special, just like WoW!
Ineed. You know what else looks special and clean? All that incredibly high end Bind on Pick-up gear that farmers are salivating over but can't possibly sell. It looks so special because it'll only have one owner ever and clean because it hasn't traded hands 300 times.
NCSoft doesn't have to institute that, but at leasts it's one way of successfully fighting the problem.
I'd rather know a problem exists by seeing it than pretend it doesn't. I can fight it that way.
And you'll share this playbook of ultra successful tactics with the other players and NCSoft when? They have teams of professionals playing in shifts 24/7 and we have folks who just want to play a video game for a few hours after work or school. Take a wild guess who has won that battle in the past, is winning it now, and will most likely win that in the future?
It's a matter of the tier of GM you receive. By doing /GM, you get an automated response from a first-tier GM that may or may not investigate the botter in question.
But if you send it to support with screenshot(s), it is often escalated to a second-tier GM (or higher).
Again, these are just my experiences. But they've worked for me.
It's a matter of the tier of GM you receive. By doing /GM, you get an automated response from a first-tier GM that may or may not investigate the botter in question.
But if you send it to support with screenshot(s), it is often escalated to a second-tier GM (or higher).
Wooo, pull back dat horsey.
It has always been my understanding that. All information is gathered by the first tier and passed off to the second tier to act upon. I hate to think the first tier are dumping our bot petitions into the petition dumpster to to speak.
I don't know for sure, all I know is that it often appears that a /gm does very little in getting a problem solved in a timely manner, whereas sending to support does.
Maybe it's perception, maybe it's not. Maybe it's just my luck that support operates faster.
Quote from Support: In addition to emailing us at support, you may also report suspected bots in-game by using the /gm command. Make sure to include the name of the suspected violator(s) along with any possible observations as to why you believe them to be using third-party software.
LMAO.... I don't have that much room in a petition to state all of the names and why i feel they are :)
if NC really wanted to deal with botting, they would provide medical assistance to people trying to wean themselves off it. the patch. just apply this patch, and you get the feeling that you are getting something done while afk, without actually doing anything wrong. hey, it worked with cigarettes didnt it?
GMs can either:
a) teleport to a 'known' location
b) teleport to exact coordinates
c) teleport to the location of a character by name, which no doubt can be detected by third-party sorftare and causes a GM alarm.
by providing the exact coordinates, it saves the GM from having to port to a nearby location and spend 30 minutes trying to /target the offender. this sort of thing is not useful if you mention something like "first room of patriots", but if it was "third room of patriots" it raises ambiguities about which one is the "third room", does it not? you can even shorten "location" to "loc" any there is a fair chance the 1st tier will understand.
edit: the ONLY time ive ever run out of space in a petition concerning bots, was when the dwarves were all over dark elf village that one time. it took me 2 petitions to get all the names squeezed in there.
If Gms could goto the location you would not have to provide them names. They would fix on you and solve the problem. This has been always my point that gms can not log into the game and act on petitons. Asking a gm to come to you and remove or investagate bots will never work. So the location thingy is a no go. All it takes is someone for no more then 2 hrs using the goto command. Goto all the cats and sweep them clean, then work on RB's and starter villages.
I would volunter for this " Freely" but there must be a logical reason they want them in the game.
jacent is in one of the most heavily botted and ebayed alliances on gustin
that is all
And that has what to do with the price of fish?
To be honest NN most of your input into threads regarding the bot problem is to accuse various people of being a bot or ebaying themselves. It seems you think if anyone has any knowledge whatsoever of anything which is regarded as against the EULA that automatically makes that person guilty of something :mad:
jacent is in one of the most heavily botted and ebayed alliances on gustin
that is all
And that has what to do with the price of fish?
To be honest NN most of your input into threads regarding the bot problem is to accuse various people of being a bot or ebaying themselves. It seems you think if anyone has any knowledge whatsoever of anything which is regarded as against the EULA that automatically makes that person guilty of something :mad:
i think she meant how can he actually stand being in there while hating bots,farmers,ebaying so much. i fink :eek:
To be honest NN most of your input into threads regarding the bot problem is to accuse various people of being a bot or ebaying themselves. It seems you think if anyone has any knowledge whatsoever of anything which is regarded as against the EULA that automatically makes that person guilty of something :mad:
First off, that was a direct quote from my post in the beginning of this thread. Jacent's personal fault was that, according to his words, he simply stopped caring ("it's none of my business, there are GM's for that"). While my point is that everyone should take a stand against botters and show zero tolerance to them, especially to those who belong to certain clans that embrace cheating.
What's said about Jacent, can be said about you btw. Don't complain about nameless farmer bots in some catacomb, start complaining about cheaters in your own clan, get them kicked or at least make their lives miserable.
What makes me laugh so much is so many people from our server always have the same comeback - your clan has botters so why are you complaining!
I don't control what the whole server does, I can't report something I don't see (and before you start again there is a HUGE difference between knowing someone does something and having proof - if I'm not there to prove a fact I can't do anything about it, GM's don't work on heresay.) There is a very specific person on our server who I know for a fact has broken all the rules to get where they are but I have no proof therefore there is little I personally can do. I don't associate with them but I cannot control what everyone else does - understand that Acon and stop saying the same thing to me over and over, it is pointless.
Secondly my post had nothing to do with you which is why I mentioned NN. There are posts throught the forums from NN that are all the same thing to lots of different people.