Canto's Corner
Do we as players have a responsibility to police ourselves and others when it comes to gaming? Do we have a responsibility to help maintain the health of the game and its servers?
What's Hot..What's Not!
Canto expressed a very real issue in his rant this morning: Do we, the players, have a responsibility to ensure that our game is maintained in a healthy state? Do we have an obligation to play the game as intended or is it perfectly acceptable to "break" the game for other players? Let us know what you think by voting in our poll. (http://l2vault.ign.com/?dir=sympoll&dispid=52)
It's my belief that any member of a community has a responsibility to work towards the betterment of it, however that is just my wacko off-the-wall libertarian view of things.
Many people do not take this approach in real life, so expecting it in a game is unrealistic. Many players do not even view it as a community and you also have the anonymity factor in play.
The other point, and this is a very big one, is that players are paying for an entertainment service. In that light, many have no desire to spend their leisure time policing the environment and feel that should be the realm of those whom they are paying the monthly fee to.
Player policing is a tricky situation because even in real life it doesn't work. Instead of using a RL example, I will take one from Asheron's Call:
On the Morningthaw server, they had monthly Monarch (clan leader) meetings and they also had a schedule site where groups can sign up for a slot to do the major quest in the game. A good portion of the community had a lot of respect for the people who worked to improve the community (Elder, Nyneve, Bucc Bow, etc). Yes, you still had server drama but you had a sense of order, community events, and a good amount of respect for one another. If a player had a problem with another player, they told their Monarch and the two monarchs handled it.
This all works well as long as you have a community that respects the system. Eventually, you had people that did not respect the server schedules or acknowledge the authority of the Monarchs. Even worse, you had Monarchs that said they didn't care about the system or the meetings.
From there it all breaks down and there really was an entire period of the most pathetic forum and ingame drama you'd ever seen in an MMOG... for probably a year straight.
Basically, what I am saying is that if an MMOG offers any level of player policing or player responsibility, the players have to acknowledge that there are only two possible outcomes
1) the majority work to build the community and respect each other
2) people treat each other the way people normally do in real life (like crap) and the only thing left is 'might makes right'
There are no other outcomes when the tools are in the hands of the player.
In general, players are responsible for their own use of the platform. To me that also means it is necessary that consequences are experienced too.
If one breaks the EULA, whatever the rules prescribe as a consequence should happen.
It would be GREAT if somehow a sense of community (pride?) motivated folks to work together on making their game world 'better'....but that just isn't possible.
The logical outcome of travel down that road would be some form of direct democracy (which is a ridiculous concept for regulation of anything).
As much as I wish it were otherwise, NCSoft is responsible to PROGRAM a platform that exists and to set up some police oversight.
Players are responsible for INDIVIDUALLY playing within the EULA they understand to be in place (or else forfeit their money/dues and game assets).
The architecture leaves L2 with "might makes right" and the term "might" is absolutely unqualified. If a clan gets away with botting for a year and collects 15 billion adena which lets them buy fabulous stuff--they are still "mighty".
I don't look for L2 to be a social utopia. I accept it as it IS. If I feel moved to try to make something on this planet truly 'better', I go find a mirror to see who I should start with.
~D~
What you (we) pay is trivial, taking a girl to a movie and dinner can cost what you pay for a year of L2. We get one of the biggest deals on the planet, we pay pennies per hour (if you play enough!).
But back to the topic. I suspect that the proportion of players who build their server/game community would be similar to the proportion of citizens who actively build their own communities by engaging in public service, voting, and volunteering around town. Many (or most) people seem to be free riders who accept the benifits of a democracy without putting anything back into it just like most players use the game without contributing. There is a minority of good citizens who maintain what is good in society. They understand the issues, the free riders don't.
Well if my 15$ amonth is not paying for babysitters, i want my money back. I understand there is no such thing as Law or respect in all humans. Eveyone pretends to be someone they really are not .History can tell you this, just remove the police from the world and see what happens.
Man was deisgn to kill each other, the only thing stopping us is RULES, and self preservation. This same animal behavor can be seen in the game and when no one is watching.
The responsibilty falls on the game company to police ther own game. If this was not true the game would be free and end up like a hacked out series game. (Diable,Doom,Ect).
When i try to be responsible, and report wrong doings nothing happens. So maybe the games own system is failing ther customers. Once the customer notices the system is failing, he or she will take advantage of that. It is also human nature to take SHORT cuts. This kinda behavor plagues the players and also Plagues the Game company.
Once people notice the Rules/Laws are not being inforced, well you know what happens next. So maybe this post should be directed mostly at the company to inforce there rules in the game, with 0 acception .
So to summon it up in a few words:
INFORCE THE RULES THAT WE PAY 15$ FOR, or give the money back lol.
On the Morningthaw server, they had monthly Monarch (clan leader) meetings...
Other than Darktide, there were other servers? ;)
Both players, and the game producer, are responsible. However, the lion shae of this is on the game producer, as it controls the code, ability to ban, and sets the tone of what is allowable, or not, in its game.
Players should not have to make up for the LACK of support given by ncsoft after we PAY for the service.
It isn't lack of support unless what the player is doing is against the rules of the game.
I would take the opposite road you are taking. I'd be all for more tools for player policing in L2 instead of putting the task in the hands of the devs. There are several reasons for this.
To start, it would probably result in a MASSIVE support issue as there would be a tremendous amount of support calls.To use the recent example, each person feels they themselves have exclusive rights to an area and that the other person has absolutely no business being there - I was here first, I'm tying to complete a quest, I'm here to level, I'm here to make cash, I need a certain drop, These mobs have the spoil I need, etc.
And the second reason is that each server has its own 'personality' and its own politics. Hard coded rules get in the way of that. They force a system on the players and further prevent the possibility of negotiation or diplomacy.
A game like L2 has to be handled differently from a game like WoW. The game is based on risk, consequence, and PvP. More dev control, in the form of game mechanics or ingame 'police', has an adverse affect on each of the factors that make L2 what it is.
Dont put rules in place if your not gonna enforce them lol
This is the truth. Why did many people go to Franz? For competition. Everyone cheats, everyone bots. Everyone's on the same playing field! You don't have a bunch of legits that you simply smash and get bored, you're PvPing against people who cheated just as much as you.
Kinda funny to read Cantoscav is still in L2. He used to be one of the most stridently anti-botters/ebayers on Lionna....until he joined their alliance. Haven't heard much from him since that.
It would be an interesting experiment to see what would happen if NCSoft made a special server where trades could be done between players using real world currency. Where toons could be bought and sold and anyone could macro. Would it be very different? I doubt it. Maybe more equal, probably more crowded, but cheating is so rampant, I doubt it'd be much different.
I like the idea of a player run server with little GM interraction, which is what we have now. But what we need is castle owning clans having MORE control. Who can/can't enter their towns, who is KoS by the town guard. Who can use their stores, who can get discounts. Other than to leech N% tax from towns, get a few fancy items and buffs, what else is a castle for? Even in CT 1 it's just a clan hall with bigger walls.
If owning a castle granted you power over the towns and villages under it then clans could control the economy much more. This way you'd see more activity in other towns...
If owning a castle granted you power over the towns and villages under it then clans could control the economy much more. This way you'd see more activity in other towns...
If owning a castle granted you power over the towns and villages under it then clans could control the economy much more. This way you'd see more activity in other towns...
AKA Shadowbane.
Loved it, would love it here personally.
Same here. If controlling a town offered some control over guards or prices or a KOS list, that would prove very interesting and maybe entice more people to band together to take over different towns.
Fersilicious is correct about NCS. If they are going to have a EULA that players pay expecting to have enforced.. a reasonably 'earnable' level playing field, then they should enforce it.
I can recognize the their 'We're working and investigating the issues on all servers' and would be more apt to sympathize if there weren't Eula-breaking braggarts flaunting their success at cheating as well as the rampant soulless groups running night and day as visible as an open-weeping sore on the face of L2.
But once you move beyond NCS simply enforcing the EULA, you do have a wide open game that is intended to be run by the players. Should Baium be available to all? That should depend on the controlling forces on the server. Should noobs be able to leave their start towns without being dropped by a perma-red? The players should make that decision.
And they do.
There will always be a good vs evil, a polite vs impolite, and despicable vs just. Frankly part of the game (at least for me) is having those that I consider to be 'bad eggs' to work against.
My values are, I suppose, fairly evident by now. I don't expect every player to embrace them. If they did, I'd not have a niche place in the game and would be looking for another lawless town to try to clean up.
That noted, it is sometimes saddening... sometimes even shocking to discover how many players disregard their fellow gamers in L2 and how low they'll go simply to ruin the gaming experience for them.
Moreover, there are plenty of players who may complain about the behavior of some others, yet stand by and refuse to make an effort to affect their surroundings.
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." ~ Edmund Burke
It is of course true that NC needs to enforce their rules, but on the other hand I dislike the mentality where people "do" because they "can". "It's not my job to make Lineage 2 a fun game for others, so why should I? I will use hero shout for personal attacks where the victim can't defend himself because NC won't do anything about it."
It's a matter of principle and integrity. It's exactly the same as saying it's okay to steal if you don't get caught.
I believe that the virtues of Honor of Integrity cannot be forced.
Now it may be that I'm from the last generation where integrity and personal accountability were taught to be striven for and admired that people who share my views are so rare, not only in L2, but IRL as well.
The mindset of "It's a PvP game, cry more" "Screw other players, my getting to top level by lying, cheating or stealing is justified by the results" "I pay my subscription and if I want to use my play time to ruin the experience for others, that's my right" is what it is. Ego-centric Mysanthropic, trollish behavior.
In the real world, such attitudes, when they actually infringe upon the rights of others are often punished (justice system or a punch in the teeth), which is why punks who can't get away with pulling that sort of behavior IRL flock to internet communities and games to flame, trash, or otherwise behave rudely toward others.
The general complacency of the community that don't actively participate in such behavior only enboldens the offenders.
All one who values honor and integrity can reasonably do is stand up for him/herself and hope to find others who believe similarly and band together.
The basic problem you have Pamean is that people that tend to be impolite also tend to cheat. The two are related. So you'd be handing even more power to those who will abuse it most if you give control over NPCs to them. Look back at the early days of Lionna. Who was it who controlled the hunting grounds? Botters. They were willing to be the most brutal, rude, and cheat. They are related.
Many rules dont get inforced. ive seens names that are hate fully to life styles and race. Ive reported them and nothing happens. So at least i know the No third party rule is not the only rule allowed to be broken.
So like i posted in the Paid servies post that got Locked lol. I would pay an extra Quarter to hire 1 to 5 people to inforce the rules apoun Petiton. <-- this means live Gms/Human logged into the game 24/7. No more we will look into it and 3 to 10 weeks later the same person breaking the same rules.
I would Inforce a NO AFK RULE for farming/hunting. This would not take much investagation. "Hello are you there?" "pls respond?" Anyone home?" <-- Cya would not want to bee you! This rule would only apply to the toon attacking, wont effect your boxed players in follow mode.
In our society, we choose our governement, and then we make rules and expect our government to enforce those rules. This is how we shape our community. If the government stops enforcing the rules, chaos erupts, and the community will have difficulty maintaining itself.
This is what has happened in L2.
The community can only do so much, we rely on the govt (NCSoft) to enforce certain rules.
Sure, the players can go hunt reds, clear lowbie areas, band together and take out clans of jerks, etc, etc.
IMO all of that stuff is what makes the game fun. It's not so much that we are responsible for doing it, but many find it very enjoyable, and as a result it has never been a huge problem.
On the other hand, the community is for the most part powerless to fight ebaying, powerleveling, account purchasing, and the other EULA violations. We count on NCSoft to enforce those rules, and to put it bluntly, NCSoft has fallen absolutely flat on their faces.
The result, just as I have mentioned above is that there is alot of chaos and the community has trouble maintaining itself.
We'll never be able to say for sure, but it's my feeling that this failure has hurt the community, which in turn has hurt the game.
I would Inforce a NO AFK RULE for farming/hunting. This would not take much investagation. "Hello are you there?" "pls respond?" Anyone home?" <-- Cya would not want to bee you! This rule would only apply to the toon attacking, wont effect your boxed players in follow mode.
Actually, this is what Mythic did with Dark Age of Camelot. I never saw unattended characters..and I remember clearly once we came across 2 of them camping a spot. We petitioned..the GM came down and said "Anyone who's NOT using a 3rd party program...stand up and cheer!" Of course my friend and I cheered..the other 3..ignored the GM and continued to attack a mob that had just spawned. *POOF* they were gone. As far as the "tag alongs" if you are going to have a tag along..then pay attention to it..if you see the GM say that..better respond with both. I feel tag alongs are just one SMALL step above the unattended toons, as it ruins opportunities for live people who enjoy playing support classes. But that's another topic :)
I like the idea of a player run server with little GM interraction, which is what we have now. But what we need is castle owning clans having MORE control. Who can/can't enter their towns, who is KoS by the town guard. Who can use their stores, who can get discounts. Other than to leech N% tax from towns, get a few fancy items and buffs, what else is a castle for? Even in CT 1 it's just a clan hall with bigger walls.
bigger walls but without free buffs or cheap teleports :p
If owning a castle granted you power over the towns and villages under it then clans could control the economy much more. This way you'd see more activity in other towns...
In our society, we choose our governement, and then we make rules and expect our government to enforce those rules. This is how we shape our community. If the government stops enforcing the rules, chaos erupts, and the community will have difficulty maintaining itself.
This is what has happened in L2.
Two very different situations.
"we make rules and expect our government to enforce those rules"
In our society we chose the government and the laws by which we live. We did not do that with L2. Our characters live under rule they did not appoint and laws they did not make. The rulers have stated "You have the tools to handle things... go handle them."
...until now.
The citizenry (players) of this land (L2) have certain choices. Changing the laws is not one of them. Encouraging the government (NCSoft) to act is. Working together as a community is. Since the latter of the two choices is not possible, then we are left with the former. I say the latter is not possible because it is an undeniable fact that outside of clanmates the vast majority of L2 players do not care at all what happens to the next guy. I don't know of an MMOG that has less community than the NA servers of L2. So that leaves us with encouraging the government to take action. Fortunately, whether the naysayers and malcontents want to admit it or not, the government has already taken the initiative
- events designed to offer higher rewards during NA player normal play hours
- meet and greets to get player input
- regular interviews with Alyra, Ornery, and other team members
- massive bot clean ups ingame, most noticeable was during this past event
- and a renewed push in getting new blood into the game
Some people refuse to acknowledge that and spam the boards with repeat posts about how there is no support and the devs don't care. Those people are usually the loudest voices. Since we cannot shut them up, it is up to us to drown them out...
...with suggestions, constructive criticism, and player action.
There used to be a much more larger, more cohesive community here, but as I predicted 3+ yrs ago, failure to apply the rules has left us with a handful of people who care, and a whole bunch of people who enjoy wallowing in the mud.
There used to be a much more larger, more cohesive community here, but as I predicted 3+ yrs ago, failure to apply the rules has left us with a handful of people who care, and a whole bunch of people who enjoy wallowing in the mud.
Very true.
In a greater context, however, it is an undeniable fact that gear & class > skill & "right" almost every time. It is very hard to "fight the bad guys", solely as a player-community effort, when the bad guys have all the best gear, power, and characters.
The GMs have repeatedly said "player issue" but there is little the legitimate can do to compete with the not. XP Loss means nothing to one who does not have to spend the time, personally, to regain it. Adena costs mean nothing to those with billions to spare.
I do not believe, however, that it is a player's responsiblity to be the law-enforcer for the virtual world. It is, however, the player's responsibility to play within the rules of the game. By the same token, it is the responsibility of the GMs and Support Staff of the game to enforce their EULA appropriately, equally and proactively.