hey people, after playing wow for a while I decided to play L2.
I know this game takes long time to reach high lvl...so I dont want to waste any time creating some useless class and reroll again. I know I am going to be either sword singer or blade dancer. So my question is, which class is better for duo and small party?
By looking at their skills, seems like SS is more of defense and BD is more of offense class. My friend told me nobody wants SS at high lvl..is this true? He said people prefer BD than SS. I would like some pros and cons about these two classes if possible from veteran players.
thanx in advance.
Your friend is basically right. BD is far more sought after, but I think most people would take an sws if one was avalable. But be warned, light elves look awful in many of the DD heavy armors :)
Both classes are valuable. The damage output of a Chant of Victory party with Song of Hunter, Dance of Fury, Fire and Warrior is awesome. BD's are needed in any melee or mage party, while SwS's are needed in melee, archer and tank groups. SwS's are great at pulling because of their speed.
hmm I see, then what about soloing and duoing with these classes?
How far can I go soloing and duoing with a friend? I heard at certain lvl, you have to group no matter what to gain exp, is this true?
Not true. I can solo just fine at 73 on my SwS, provided I have either clan hall buffs or drag along my own buffer. The BD has an easier time soloing because they have higher patk and better offensive dances.
My wife (75 BD) and I duo often with just self buffs. We both have Might/Shield 2 and put up 6 songs/dances. We pull mobs with our bows (often killing them before they get to us) and finish them off with melee attacks. It works quite well.
You'll start to want a buffer in your group at some point, but you do not need to join a bigger party at any point for xp. It might be beneficial, but it's not necessary.
Depends on what server you play on. I'm on Gustin as a BD. Originally there were few of us around, now there's loads. SWS are sought after as there are few of those and most people try to get both BD and SWS in a party if possible
I see more in-game demand for sword singers (because there aren't many), but more enthusiasm for blade dancers. Basically people like buffs that make them feel powerful (like BD dances) rather than buffs that make the mobs feel weak (like songs).
I know other folks in this thread are talking about higher-up levels. I'm not there yet, but it at least seems possible to get there.
In B-grade in a duo with SE (without pots/scrolls/OOP or any consumables except soulshots), I get 5% per buff round ~ 15% per hour on my BD. That's with pretty mundane gear, not top or overenchanted. I imagine a destroyer or warlord may do better than that, but I feel ok with my progress. It's actually substantially slower in groups for me, but of course more fun.
The cool thing with BD or SwS is you have to be in-party for your buffs to work, so you're an asset even if all your high-level friends have their own PP/SE.
I see there are so many songs and dances, but can I play more than 1 song or dance at one time? Is there a limit of how many songs or dances you can play?
I have a related question, might as well ask. I've often read that having a SwS and BD in party togther can cause mana issues, especially if one of them is being a *jerk*. This is counterintuitive, and I'm wondering if somebody can explain that. (I would think that the 2 would just alternate 2-minute buffs to help conserve mana.)
I see there are so many songs and dances, but can I play more than 1 song or dance at one time? Is there a limit of how many songs or dances you can play?
Each new song/dance costs extra mp. I haven't bothered to work out the math, but it seems like the 2nd dance costs 150% of normal, 3rd = 200% of normal mp.
In a group, people are usually more concerned that your song/dance will wipe off a 20 minute buff than wanting you to do one with minimal* benefit.
*minimal may just be perceived benefit. e.g., dance of inspiration (increases accuracy) I think really can help - even if you only miss 5% of the time, that's a ~5% increase in damage output if you dance it.
The base-mp for a song or dance is 60. For every song or dance that is already up, add an additional 30 mp for the next song or dance.
For example, if you did 3 dances, the mp usage would be as follows:
Dance 1 - 60mp
Dance 2 - 90mp
Dance 3 - 120mp
So in this case, your 3 dances would cost you 270mp and last for 2 minutes. You need to be able to regen that mp before the 2 minutes is up, otherwise you're eventually going to run out of mp and not be able to dance.
A SwS and BD need to coordinate their songs and dances, because if you don't time them correctly, somebody is going to be using too much mp.
ACK!! are you saying if I perform a dance and someone else performs a song, that other person will cost 90mp instead of 60mp even though it was his/her first song?????
I'd go SWS just because there are way too many BD's and getting a higher party later isnt exactly as easy as it would be if you were a SWS.
I'd also prefer a SWS over a BD (if I *had* to pick) in PvP personally.
100% agree. There are some places that are not really reasonable to go without a SWS because of the amount of dmg you take. It is also better to crit more often than to crit a few times for high dmg.
[warning - biased opinion towards pvp and toon looks ahead]
LOL, your friend is basically WRONG. First of all any self respecting clan will do the possible to have them both at each party, and BDs are way more available than SS, so a newcomer SS will have at least the same opportunities a BD will (in fact more).
Then why BDs are more common? Firstly because in the past increasing your attack was more efficient than your defense in both PvP and PvE and BDs provide this at lower levels.
Also, although people will find lots of arguments to justify this differently, DEs not only look pimp but also LE looks awful in Heavy armor, specially the male LE. So if both classes are good more people opted for DEs coolest look.
Many people still have this mentality, or pretend to have so to justify his preference in having a female DE in thongs rather than a feminine looking LE male with shoulder pads. But, in fact, since C5 SS are receiving the better half of the steak. Defence gained in significance, Critial Dmg buffs (DW and DoF) have been nerfed, SS received more skills.
I'd say that if one absolutely HAVE to choose between having either one or the other in the party it will be like "SS i chose you", but as I said, you really want both in your party.
You don't have to believe me. Just go to blah a look for siege videos of C4 and recent siege videos, look at the proportion of dances/songs in the buff bars and take your own conclusions.
Moreover, by increasing the archery range and reducing damage, the difference in damage output between a SWS and a BD became somewhat less important than it used to be.
Putting on my drama king hat, if things follow the same tendencies I'm afraid that in a couple of chronicles (or thrones w/e) BDs will risk be dropped in favor of a true DD or a True tank.
Looking at a PvE standpoint things soften things a bit. I still think BDs to be more versatile and surely better looking :). And BDs are better to solo than a SS (but both are fairly ok to reach mid B grade and why anyone would like to solo either class after mid b grade is beyond me). But even in PvE there are situations you will prefer a SWS if you are forced to chose and some defend that the best power trio atm involves a SS not a BD,
As I warned this is somewhat biased towards a PvP point of view, but this is a PvP game and, at least for me, PvE is just a complement to it. Some ppl may think it the other way, but playing L2 as a PvE game is "not my sandwich".
just my 2 cents
Btw, regardless of gender, DEs still look better than LEs LOL
Also, although people will find lots of arguments to justify this differently, DEs not only look pimp but also LE looks awful in Heavy armor, specially the male LE. So if both classes are good more people opted for DEs coolest look.
Firstly, you should never, ever play a male SwS. It's a sorority. Anyone who attempts to tell you differently is sadly, horribly deluded. That's what TKs are for. Being boys. SwS-school for the girls, TK-school for the boys... sheesh.
Secondly, BW and Maj Heavy are our only "bad" looking armour sets. Everything else is made from win, and generally far more win than anything a DE can dream of putting on. For one, I am glad I don't often have to chase away drooling hordes (unless I'm fighting zombies, but that's different) everytime I step outside, and DE don't run that fast in the first place...
Now, on to the specifics...
Yes, SwS and BD, in a party together, are a song-and-dance routine that impacts the other's MP usage with each buff. There's a number of ways to make it work, generally called referred to as an X/Y routine, such as 2/3, 1/3/1 or some similar thing. Usually, this is the number of songs vs the number of dances, and in what order. So, in 2/3, the SWS sings her two and the BD does his 3, in 1/3/1, the SwS sings once, the BD drops his 3 dances, the SwS sings her second song, etc. Most BD/SwS pairs generally find a routine that works best between the two of them and stick with that.
In most parties, supporting more than 5 at a time between the two of is generally not sustainable indefinitely, because of the MP costs and fairly static MP regeneration rates (within a given range of levels). Nearer end-game, 6 such buffs can be maintained, though this depends on other actions either of the two is doing (Arrest/Hate, Symphonies, PBD, using bows, etc).
Unlike many other classes, however, both the BD and SwS can be very versatile in their application, though both definitely compliment each other as well as fill their own unique niche. SwS, for example, tend to provide better support to melee-AOE parties, while the BD is better suited for mage-AOE parties, the SwS for archer parties, BD for caster, both together for a melee-DD or "traditional" PVE party.
If you intend to get into a big ally and want to be the rarer of the 2 classes go sws. But be prepared for it to take longer to level/get to 70+.
If you want to be versatile. Good for mage, archer, melee parties. Better at soloing and level faster then go BD. The reason BD's are more popular is simple, they pawn more.
As a sws though, I gotta say I love my class. Since BD's are more popular, it's nice to know that if I party with a BD the party will pawn no matter what. I just wish mage songs didn't come at 77 and that we had maybe 1 more attack oriented song ^^
I love playing a SWS in any party, even just hanging back in an Archer PVP party is fun as hell, even though you can't kill anything. You can slow, root, hate and debuff .. and last but not least survive like a [censored]!
I prefer the 3 dances 2 songs combo in parties, this is viable from around level 70-72 for the SWS, I even throw in some arrests now and then and don't go OOM, even though I should, thankfully many BDs are slackers (more so than SWS') and sometimes forget to dance ^^
Secondly, BW and Maj Heavy are our only "bad" looking armour sets.
Which are the armor you wanna be wearing on Grades B and A. Tallum is also an exelent choice for a more offensive SS, and this one does look good on LE females, but look evem better on DEs. Then you have IC on S grade which also looks awful on LE. Unfortunately it looks bad on a Female DE too (I just HATE those collars).
Everything else is made from win, and generally far more win than anything a DE can dream of putting on.
No way!! 75.45% of the armors in this game have a not so hidden +16 bonus on hawtness for DEs!
For one, I am glad I don't often have to chase away drooling hordes (unless I'm fighting zombies, but that's different) everytime I step outside, and DE don't run that fast in the first place...
If you intend to get into a big ally and want to be the rarer of the 2 classes go sws. But be prepared for it to take longer to level/get to 70+.
If you want to be versatile. Good for mage, archer, melee parties. Better at soloing and level faster then go BD. The reason BD's are more popular is simple, they pawn more.
As a sws though, I gotta say I love my class. Since BD's are more popular, it's nice to know that if I party with a BD the party will pawn no matter what. I just wish mage songs didn't come at 77 and that we had maybe 1 more attack oriented song ^^
Now a days it won´t take you too much longer to hit 70+ than it would for a BD, actually if you can find the right clan it can be faster (at least while we are in interlude). the worst period will be from 40 - 49 (after you leave clan academy and before you get hunter song). Up to lvl 40 is not a biggie if you get into the academy of a good active clan. After you get hunter you should not find yourself without a party unless you want or are clan-less or in a bad clan (or in clan that already have all SS they need, which is the most uncommon).
And yes BDs do solo better than SS, but if solo is your thing i'd advice you against both classes.
I just feel like adding that there are only 3 physical critical rate buffs in the game (excluding selfbuffs and passives), two of them add 30% while one adds 100%. SwS gets the latter one, which alone makes them incredibly desirable for certain parties.
Don't have much else to add I guess, but I just feel like reiterating what others have basically already said. SwS is defensive (with some exceptions) while BD is more offensive. BD is more desirable overall since offense is considered far more important than defense. The flipside is that because BD's are so popular, there are a *lot* of them compared to SwS, and you are more likely to find a party who could use (/want/need/etc) SwS than you are finding a party who are looking for a BD but can't find one. If that made any sense.
I only have one word for hunter in pole parties. Crack.
Come the VR nerf, Earth will be heaps more desirable for us polers as well.
No boss jewelry will increase critical rate. SWS is desirable because you get the benefit from boss jewelry critical damage multiplied by Hunter's critical rate.
No boss jewelry will increase critical rate. SWS is desirable because you get the benefit from boss jewelry critical damage multiplied by Hunter's critical rate.
Okay, so why is an SwS bad for an archer party? How does boss jewelry overlap with hunter? Why would *anyone* go "no thanks, we don't want you in our party, we have boss jewelry"?
That still doesn't change the fact that SwS is a very desirable class to have in your pvp party, which is what I'm trying to argue here. I'm saying that SwS is desirable, and you are more likely to find a party if you are desirable but don't share your class with 50 others.
BD has no buffs to increase critical rate, boss jewelry will not increase critical rate, SwS will double your base critical rate which will make you benefit more from BD dances and boss jewelry.
This makes SwS a good class to have in your party, and nowhere did I say "better" than anything. Please take your argumentative nature and elitist assumptions elsewhere.
You will be needed no matter which class you pick but leveling a BD is easier than leveling a SWS especially if you dont have buffs
Very true.
Bladedancers get better buffs earlier than SwS's and you simply can't discount have a strike(Sting) and Hex while leveling. They are simply awesome tools for leveling and you get them really early.
The biggest(only?) downside to playing a BD is that your gear weapons from 40 until the ends of days is already picked out for you. You will use duals and that's pretty much it. You can dance and then switch weapons but it's unbelievably annoying. So unless you want to put all your weapons on your hot bar and constantly swap them it's dual swords and only dual swords. That being said, with the buffs BD's gives no one complains in poling parties if all your doing is dancing then going into the fray to find and then kick the [censored] out of the mob that has the poles missed.
Managing songs and dances together is a pain in the [censored]. No, it's not a huge issue but compared to what other buffers go through it's pulling teeth.
That still doesn't change the fact that SwS is a very desirable class to have in your pvp party, which is what I'm trying to argue here. I'm saying that SwS is desirable, and you are more likely to find a party if you are desirable but don't share your class with 50 others.
BD has no buffs to increase critical rate, boss jewelry will not increase critical rate, SwS will double your base critical rate which will make you benefit more from BD dances and boss jewelry.
This makes SwS a good class to have in your party, and nowhere did I say "better" than anything. Please take your argumentative nature and elitist assumptions elsewhere.
double your base crit rate? so i can go from my 300 to 600? woah really?
lol get your facts straight.
Bd is 100X better than sws for any party, both is good but if cant have both bd always.
I'm not aware of any class which can get 300 base crit rate. A level 80 MlS will have 165.
Edit: 193 for WR.
Edititit (grr): Make that 138 for both of the above, l2c glitching out on me.
Editit: I'm pretty positive Hunter still doubles your base rate, just that it's so strict in what it considers base rate. Passives, items, buffs, and so on don't affect eachother. If your crit rate is 150 where 50 is from passives and whatever, you'll get 250 from hunter. If 150 is purely from your dex, you'll get 300.
As a HE you have critical passives which are excluded though, if that's where you last tested it.
On my WL I'm pretty sure that with hunter and focus I get base+base+(base*0.3)+augment. I never sat down and dissected it, but will see if I get a chance next time.
As a HE you have critical passives which are excluded though, if that's where you last tested it.
On my WL I'm pretty sure that with hunter and focus I get base+base+(base*0.3)+augment. I never sat down and dissected it, but will see if I get a chance next time.
Woudnt you argue thats just silly?
"Base" crit rate is whatever I have with a weapon equiped and no buffs. I dont have the option to turn off Critical chance, its a "part" of me, just like the base critical rate on a weapon.
Fact is, its not doubled..its that simple ;P You really cant argue that "Well if you turn off critical chance it would be!" because thats impossible.
I'll have to try it with a variety of weapons. I have 2 accounts, so I can party different classes with my SwS and whatever weapons they have to bring, and see what happens.
Thinking about it, the example I gave earlier might not be 100% valid, as Hunter may now add a static bonus to your critical chance that just happens to exactly correspond to the base critical chance of the weapon I had equipped at the time.
Still, if Hunter adds a static 96-point boost to the critical stat, that is at worse a ~25% bonus (or more, depending on your base critical) to your critical chance. Nothing to turn your nose up at, unless you're at the cap of 500 already.
As far as what Hunter actually does, Tarun is correct. It doubles the "base" crit rate, where "base" is the crit rate excluding passives, buffs and gear. Everything else is added on top of that. You can argue the definition of "base" all day long, but this is what Hunter is actually doing.
Which is what I thought, as well, and has been my understanding of Hunter for years now (and I am somehow the last person to be told when they change skills), but as Ashane suggested, if it doesn't double the base critical of a bow, then its not exactly doubling the base critical chance anymore, is it?
I have an Elven Scout (ie, sub-40) with no tats or stat-changing items, so I'll give it a whirl to see what happens.
The Elven Scout has a (true) base crit of 46. He also has a passive Critical Chance (level 28 skill) that increases crit rate by 9. If you don't have hunter up, your crit rate will be base + passive = 55. With hunter up, you'll have base x 2 + passive = 101.
Base: 46
Base + Hunter: 92
Base + Passive: 55
Base + Passive + Hunter: 101
The Elven Scout has a (true) base crit of 46. He also has a passive Critical Chance (level 28 skill) that increases crit rate by 9. If you don't have hunter up, your crit rate will be base + passive = 55. With hunter up, you'll have base x 2 + passive = 101.
Base: 46
Base + Hunter: 92
Base + Passive: 55
Base + Passive + Hunter: 101
How about
(hunter)(base) + passive + buffs + SA
if that's what it is. no reason to muddy it up with inaccurate notation.
Yeah, but hunter still is only one of 3 critical rate buffs in the game, and is more effective than the other two combined at that (focus and blessing also only go on base afaik).
I'm just trying to argue that an SwS is *plenty* useful still, and that you can't deny that what's basically being buffed with focus an extra 3 times is a good thing. I'm not sure why it's so controversial with me saying SwS is desirable and hunter being one reason why. I'm not trying to argue that SwS is "better" than BD or that hunter is "better" than fire, all I'm saying is hunter is a good buff which works great together with boss jewelry and fire.
Yes, I agree. I think NC included a Light Elf race just because they felt like they had to have a LE race. Not because they really want LEs in the game. I've seen this in other games also.
Personally I have never seen a party take a SWS over a BD. Except a tank party for raiding but those are horrid low xp parties that are a total waste of time. Sure song of hunter is nice, but attack speed dance is better. BD's are even really good for mage parties while I dont think a SWS does much of anything for a mage party. Solo a BD is pretty good and their buffs help them alot. A solo SWS is kinda lame usually using a bow or a dagger and trying to pretend to be a archer or dagger class without those class benifits.
Personally I have never seen a party take a SWS over a BD. Except a tank party for raiding but those are horrid low xp parties that are a total waste of time. Sure song of hunter is nice, but attack speed dance is better. BD's are even really good for mage parties while I dont think a SWS does much of anything for a mage party. Solo a BD is pretty good and their buffs help them alot. A solo SWS is kinda lame usually using a bow or a dagger and trying to pretend to be a archer or dagger class without those class benifits.
I believe we were talking about a PVP party where SWS > BD in most cases.. though both are of course preferable.
The reason LEs rarely get anything positive in the Chronicle changes is because they're so popular in Korea. NCSoft apparently decides that, since everyone plays them, they must be perfect.
However, I am lead to understand that they're popular because they're cute, and lack the social stigma that the "******" DE have. From what I am lead to understand, promiscuity is a Very Bad Thing (TM) in the Asian mindset.
Compare the EE to other buffer classes, however, and they're still relatively sub-par. While the EE does have a selection of choice, useful abilities, they provide little that the typical party requires in day-to-day levelling.
Personally I have never seen a party take a SWS over a BD. Except a tank party for raiding but those are horrid low xp parties that are a total waste of time. Sure song of hunter is nice, but attack speed dance is better. BD's are even really good for mage parties while I dont think a SWS does much of anything for a mage party. Solo a BD is pretty good and their buffs help them alot. A solo SWS is kinda lame usually using a bow or a dagger and trying to pretend to be a archer or dagger class without those class benifits.
I have never seen one party take one over the other, if you have both available you take them both... and BD soloing mid Bgrade and up is only "pretty good" if you compare it to Dorf solo, OL solo and such...
And "I dont think a SWS does much of anything for a mage party"... I can only assume that you 1) do not do much pvp (earth, vitality, warding. and so on) even if you don´t care about pvp, that have not looked in 76+ songs
and BD soloing mid Bgrade and up is only "pretty good" if you compare it to Dorf solo, OL solo and such...
You don`t seem to understand, that in a similar equip (lowA) and PP/SE BD will outdamage TH in pve... dances really boost melee dps. Obviously you never played BDs..
You don't seem to understand that BD + whatever you want is not solo. Doesn't matter if you are the only human, or sort of, interacting with the computer interface, it is solitary, but it still isn't solo play.
And lol at playing a bad buffed TH, I definitely include them in the “as such” category. And LAWL at soloing an A-Grade BD, You obviously play in a crappy clan, if u r even in one.
OK. First of all, if unbuffed, bds dps will *greatly* surpass that of a th :) guess why. And I wont even start a flame on how everyone has a boxed buffer nowadays.
Second thing - I have a solid nice clan with a castle and ch, and I have a const party and a number of people who will try to grab me whenever a chance presents itself - that is, when i`m not in a const. That in no way means that I am in group all of my ingame time. Sometimes I`m just not inclined to party. Like, hard day, want to be left alone and grind away yadda yadda. And let me tell you the grind is not much worse than in solid archer const. I knew you`d be surprised.
All those talks on "you exp alone you`re looser get a clan" are way too outdated you know. Everyone plays a game the way he likes it. If your ultimate goal is to EXP MORE - go on get an SH. I like my toon as it is, and I like the diversity I can get playing him.
OK. First of all, you miss the point. Doesn't matter if an unbuffed BD has a higher DPS than a unbuffed TH. It is still crappy xp/h anyways, if you exp is slower with a TH then it falls under the "as such" category.
And regarding boxed buffer, I won't start a flame on this either. First because the point here is discussing solo, not duoing with a boxed char and, seccond, Its not my choice of the day but I have nothing against it. I personally prefer go fishing for feathered hat parts when I feel anti-social, but if it suits you, go for it. I used to have a boxed SE myself, but I deactivated it the day I stopped having problems to find parties back in Bgrade.
And well… I've seen plenty of crappy clans with ch and castle, but I'll take your word for it ... it's not like I care anyway. Now... are you saying a solo BD (and I mean solo, not boxed duos or whatever) will have as good xp/h as in a solid archer party? if so I'll believe it when I see it... Maybe it’s just me that wants to stay bind, but I find it hard to believe PvE is broken that much….