what is with all this "stupid choice to make sorceress." and "they suck." when i first started i made a mystic and everyone suggested i make a sorceress (i guess there's always the possibility they were just stupid)
i rerolled to a TH and now i want to start working on my mystic again, and im to the point where i have to choose between necro and sorc (yeah i know, never really got that far on her) and i come to check the forums and everyone's bad-mouthin the sorc...why's that? what's so bad about sorc? from what im seeing they can actually be ok with the right gear and they do good dmg (from what i've seen/done) so straight out, what's so bad about them besides mana being burned fast?
I think the main reason why people badmouth the sorc class is that it's almost as painful to level as a spellsinger and generally gets shafted by NC (e.g. no lvl 76 vortex and no overhit skill until Fire Vortex are common sorc complaints).
Further, all of the standard nukers are feeling a little pain these days as physical damage has received insane boosts with relatively little in the way of defensive options to compensate. Nukers can still be very strong when the enemy isn't buffed against their damage types, but certain combinations of buffs render any nuker impotent in the damage department. Necros complain the loudest since players often run around with dark magic protection buffs as a matter of course due to their wide utility in PvE and easy availability from prophets, ees, and cardinals, but it doesn't matter how much you magic crit if your enemies are stacked with the proper buffs to fight you.
Again, nukers are far from worthless, and they tend to dominate in impromptu, low-buff situations, but a lot of high-level players are annoyed that a few planned or lucky buffs can turn them from glass cannons into glass pea-shooters.
so sounds like by making either a sorceress or a necro ur going to get completely dominated depending on if who your up against has the right buffs to block your hits? or you might end up winning if the other player doesnt know how to play his/her class or doesnt have the right stuff to beat ya?
You usually will end up winning in 1v1 situations with similar-level opponents. You might lose due to factors such as being out-nuked, silenced, having a character like a glad, dagger, or tyrant resist your attempts to cancel/slow, and so on, but generally nukers are very powerful compared to other characters without complete buffs. Necros are even more so in most situations because of their pets, transfer pain, and powerful debuffs and mass banes. The sorc's advantages over the necro are chiefly a single-target Slow, Cancel, a lvl 77 Vortex, and that players rarely buff Resist Fire or Elemental Protection unless they already recognize a need for it
If you are in a group PvP situation and the enemy knows they will be fighting you as a main DD, they could have everyone buffed with EP and have the sws do Warding to drastically cut your damage. If they really wanted to be ridiculous, they could sing Flame Guard and apply Resist Fire (Surrender to Fire overwrites the latter, though).
Necros often run into the above problem since dark resist buffs are widely used even while xping. Necros are still great debuffers and survive the best out of all the nukers, but I've been in PvPs where my group had a very hard time or just couldn't win because my character was relied upon to do damage and couldn't thanks to resist buffs stacked like crazy.
Anyway, neither class is bad by any means. Necros in particular remain very popular. I personally find the class very enjoyable to play even in PvE thanks to its many useful skills and options. Most sorcerers I know are rather frustrated with their class by high levels. In mass PvP sorc can drop people very quickly, especially if they don't have Warding, but MP quickly runs out while an archer can go on dishing out 3k+ crits for much longer on the same MP bar.
I'm getting off track. Yes, your success as a nuker depends quite a bit on the circumstances of the fight. Nukers aren't weak, but in some fights they are very marginalized for the reasons discussed (dropping in two crits from an archer doesn't help, either).
hm, ok well i think i've changed my mind... i'll make her a necro i guess. last question (this will sound dumb i know) are the summons hard to use? 0.o im not the best mulit-tasker :p
The summons aren't difficult to use once you are used to having them. Just put pet command icons (mainly attack and drain or stun) on one of your hot bars for easy access during PvP. I also keep the summon information window at the bottom of my screen in case I need it. I have too many skills and macros on my 3 visible hotbars to fit all of the pet commands, so I have pet attack and drain handy (I end up using the Corrupted Man most often due to its ranged drain, but the Cursed Man can be a great choice for close-quarters PvP with its Cursed Stun and high melee damage output).
truth is sorc is gimped compared to the other 3 nukers. lack of mp regen (btm1 is useless for the most part) lack of skill variety (only one high power nuke until 77) make it boring after awhile.
NC could make 1 change however and make sorcerers everywhere happy.
give them Earth based nukes identical to the elf light and dark overhit nukes.
B2m is not as useless as you'd think.
This spell does not become more efficient meaning more mana for same hp, but more mana for more hp with its levels.
The thing is that a sorcerer is slower to recover mp with it as he needs to cast it more times for the same mp give and hp taken.
Meh, it's usefull nonetheless :).
If I had a choice between sorc and necro, i'd take the sorc hands down. But I tend to think of end-game type skills and pvp. Sorcs have amazing aoe attack, and with the proper buffs, those aoe magic crits hert. They dont even need a target. I also love Fire Vortex, choosing between the dark vortex of a necro and fire vortex of a sorc... well ya, no contest. Granted you need WM passive, Siren, and PoW or magnus. lol
another thing to consider, aoe as a sorc is really effective. You can xp rather quicky to at least 62 by AOE sleep group alligator island mobs from 44-52 and aoe nuking 1/2 hp mobs at Oren.
anyways, its not gimp, you just gotta think outside the box and reject band wagon thinking that the class sucks.
Spoken like someone who's never leveled a orc to end-game levels.
Tell you what. Do that, then come here cheering about how great the class is.
Hello there friend.
Speaking as someone who has leveled a sorc to not-quite-end-game but to 78 I can assure you, I would not re-roll or chose this on myself again.
Like a few have pointed out there are downsides to the sorc -
But here a few little myths and common arguments....
1) Body to mind is in-efficient compared to other nukers: Ok, that's a given. But I was also able to level from 72-74 just off scrolls and body to mind with a little pet healing my butt. Slowest massacre ever and I wished for nails to put through my eyes. But I suppose it was worth it.
2) No over hit until 77 when you get Fire Vortex: Good thing you can't over hit, otherwise you wouldnt have the sp to get your lovely over hit skill finally. But alas young sorcs, you havent been able to overhit a thing in your life and have probably died trying to body to mind your little mp back that didnt quite give you enough to get the last hit on a couple trillion mobs so you've had a few deaths until you realized how nice sleeping an enemy mob was, alas nc nerfed yout here as well. So, you made a deal with death itself and instead collected sp instead of exp and slowly made your way to 77. Congrats you have enough sp for your Fire Vortex, now go overhit crazy!
3) Casting speed isn't as fast as sps: Get yourself a lovely 78+ee and ask them to get out of your party but to buff you every 5 min, no problem! Better yet, grab a bd as well and invite it every 2 minutes. The BD and EE can converse and entertain themselves as you try to continually cheat death. Good luck young sorc!
4) You're damage isn't as good as SH's: Grab yourself a LOT of friends and have the stand around to buff you, dance for you, sing for you and such and ask them to please remain out of party, for again, you need that exp as it is precious. (P.S. : damage seems fine for me with the right buffs) Stats fully buffed (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v286/XcaelumdeaX/Shot0002212.jpg)
5) Male sorc's look like they are the off-spring of richard simmons: it could be worse young sorc's...you could look like light elf males!
Whatever your serious malfunction is....believe what you want.
There are a LOT of downsides to this class, but as with any class you'll find that! It won't be as fast of leveling as with other toons. It also depends how you play, what support toons you have, and how much time and patience you have to invest into it.
It has turned into something good for me. For those who have gone sorc, and for those thinking of rolling out a little sorc, good luck. You have been warned.
In other words Sorc's suck :)
The good thing is in mass pvp you never are prime target sinse ppl don't recognize you as a heavy DD. You can ninja your cancel / slow / decay spells without even be noticed ^^
For me most important, I play a toon not many people play in 3rd class lvl range :)
You never do a class change for Human Mystic, thats how you start out. So Arch Mage is the Third class change, Sorc is the Second and Wizard is the First class change.
While you may be technically correct, common usage is to speak of "3rd class" when you speak about the 76+ classes. As in "there are some new 3rd class skills in ct1". So just live with it, and use the terms like everybody else uses them :)
It's like when the whole world went "yay! welcome to the new millenium!" when year 2000 began, even though the new millenium technically only started in year 2001. Better to just keep quiet and accept it, instead of annoying everybody by insisting that you are right.
Speaking as someone who has leveled a sorc to not-quite-end-game but to 78 I can assure you, I would not re-roll or chose this on myself again.
Like a few have pointed out there are downsides to the sorc -
But here a few little myths and common arguments....
1) Body to mind is in-efficient compared to other nukers: Ok, that's a given. But I was also able to level from 72-74 just off scrolls and body to mind with a little pet healing my butt. Slowest massacre ever and I wished for nails to put through my eyes. But I suppose it was worth it.
2) No over hit until 77 when you get Fire Vortex: Good thing you can't over hit, otherwise you wouldnt have the sp to get your lovely over hit skill finally. But alas young sorcs, you havent been able to overhit a thing in your life and have probably died trying to body to mind your little mp back that didnt quite give you enough to get the last hit on a couple trillion mobs so you've had a few deaths until you realized how nice sleeping an enemy mob was, alas nc nerfed yout here as well. So, you made a deal with death itself and instead collected sp instead of exp and slowly made your way to 77. Congrats you have enough sp for your Fire Vortex, now go overhit crazy!
3) Casting speed isn't as fast as sps: Get yourself a lovely 78+ee and ask them to get out of your party but to buff you every 5 min, no problem! Better yet, grab a bd as well and invite it every 2 minutes. The BD and EE can converse and entertain themselves as you try to continually cheat death. Good luck young sorc!
4) You're damage isn't as good as SH's: Grab yourself a LOT of friends and have the stand around to buff you, dance for you, sing for you and such and ask them to please remain out of party, for again, you need that exp as it is precious. (P.S. : damage seems fine for me with the right buffs) Stats fully buffed (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v286/XcaelumdeaX/Shot0002212.jpg)
5) Male sorc's look like they are the off-spring of richard simmons: it could be worse young sorc's...you could look like light elf males!
Whatever your serious malfunction is....believe what you want.
There are a LOT of downsides to this class, but as with any class you'll find that! It won't be as fast of leveling as with other toons. It also depends how you play, what support toons you have, and how much time and patience you have to invest into it.
It has turned into something good for me. For those who have gone sorc, and for those thinking of rolling out a little sorc, good luck. You have been warned.
:)
<<Devine>>
Ok, so, if you want to play SH or Necro, it's good... they are good tunes. Likewise, the Sorc is also a good tune.... PROVIDED YOU ALSO ADD MULTIPLE SUPPORT TOONS.
Then again, if the other nukers had those SAME support toons, they'd still be light years ahead of the Sorc.
Let me apply your logic to the real-world:
Oh yes a tricycle is as good a method of transportation as a BMW.
When it rains you get freaking wet, but hey, I mean, you could wear a raincoat, ride with one hand on the handles and another with an umbrella, and maybe trashbag your legs. Oh and in winter, just attatch a basket, but twigs in it and ride with a bonfire in front of you to keep warm.
You'll require several hours to get to any job site further than down the block, and when you arrive, you'll be a sweaty, exhausted mess... but just think of the carbon footprint you are saving!
Oh sure, you can't reach speeds of 60 mph... but if you put the tricycle in the back of a truck moving approximately 60mph, you're basically just as good as the BMW driver! Heck, put it in the back of a mercedez doing 75 and you're even faster than that 60mph BMW!
No, it's just annoying that people don't know how to count.
It's a trivial thing, I'm actually interested where people forgot that Mystic was not a class and decided to write it off.
Sorc doesn't necessarily need multiple support toons. I think you can do well with just 1 SE recharger at the same or above your level.
In my experience, I could go all day long on a Mystic Muse with an SE in Tallum Robes and a Conversion weapon in Forest of the Dead.
The Tallum Robes is a pretty important part, and you want at least A Grade jewels (Phoenix is fine, +3 them).
If I duo'd with an SE with BW/Homy/Acumen, I lent them my support gear. MP pots give SE ALOT of MP when they pick it up with a Conversion Weapon. Tallum Robes basically means they will never get bled or poisoned, and the A Grade jewels lowers the damage on the rare drains they take.
Let the SE pick up all MP potions, use /walk and nuke away.
The SE should not run out of MP (due to a huge MP Pool + Invocation) and neither should you (for similar reasons).
Body to Mind 1 may not be uber, but it sure as hell isn't useless considering HP pots drop like candy and it can be totally negated with a cheap grocery store Healing Potion.
The worst thing about leveling a nuker (SH/SPS/Sorc) is the boredom. I join pagans parties on Necro and sit in a safe spot. All I have to do is righth click the targetters name (or use macro) and press Servitor Attack hotkey. I can do this for 18 minutes at which time I step out just to resummon and park the pet and then go back and sit down.
Necro servitor crits about 35% rate with Focus and CoV. I've seen 4 in a row since cursed man. Thought they were nukes until it was brought to my attention that servitor crits put a message in the system message window "Critical Hit!".
Nuker is just boring. Boring to the point where you have to almost make yourself get it to 7x becuase any long breaks make you nto want to play them anymore due to the monotanous grind (which keeps you in the same areas for many levels on end).
Hi Tensharo,
Not that I have a problem with what you wrote, but what many MANY people have done, is that they've played OTHER classes and then commented on how the sorc must therefore not be so bad. Try playing a SORC, THEN tell us about the class.
Sorc doesn't necessarily need multiple support toons. I think you can do well with just 1 SE recharger at the same or above your level.
True statement. A sorc with an SE is not a bad pve, assuming the mobs are 2-3 shot. anything beyond that, the mana usage, even with the recharger is too high to be of value.
In my experience, I could go all day long on a Mystic Muse with an SE in Tallum Robes and a Conversion weapon in Forest of the Dead.
Our SpS of lower level was able to 2 shot mobs in FoD that my Sorc had to Prom, Prom + Aura bolt or Prom, Prom + melee a few times. The SpS fares better in FoD than the Sorc due to mob weaknesses. So, if you want to tell me about the Sorc, don't play a Mystic Muse, play an ArchMage.
The Tallum Robes is a pretty important part, and you want at least A Grade jewels (Phoenix is fine, +3 them).
If I duo'd with an SE with BW/Homy/Acumen, I lent them my support gear. MP pots give SE ALOT of MP when they pick it up with a Conversion Weapon. Tallum Robes basically means they will never get bled or poisoned, and the A Grade jewels lowers the damage on the rare drains they take.
... DC robes are the way to go, both for pvp and pve for the sorc and for the sps. The idea is to 2 shot the mobs so you don't get bled or poisoned. Besides, in FoD, they drop enough herbs of life that if the occasional puppeteer bleeds you, you'll recover the hp fairly quick anyway, even without using your recharger to heal. (always assuming you want to never, ever click a heal potion)
Let the SE pick up all MP potions, use /walk and nuke away.
The SE should not run out of MP (due to a huge MP Pool + Invocation) and neither should you (for similar reasons).
Since the herbs have come into play, areas that driop them do allow even a Sorc to nuke through a buff round... assuming they take their time, pick up drops as they go along, etc. If I wanted to wipe out a field in a few seconds, I could. But at a severe cost to my mana. As such, I pace myself, killing fewer mobs per buff round, but doing so in the hopes that I will sit less. Then again, I actually play a Sorc, which I strongly encourage anyone who wishes to speak on the subject to do.
Body to Mind 1 may not be uber, but it sure as hell isn't useless considering HP pots drop like candy and it can be totally negated with a cheap grocery store Healing Potion.
BtM is worthless after level 40ish. 22 mp for 133 life? Not that the life is the problem due to the herb drops, as mentioned. Do you click your soulshot for every nuke or do you toggle? if you click for each nuke... well I suppose that's your own playstle, you do whatever you want... but in that case, I'll politely decline any further advice you might offer. If you toggle, and use BtM somewhat regularly (as suggested by replenishing life via herbs) then how much Sps are you spending on BtM?
For me... an Actual Sorc, BtM comes into play after I've run out of mana as has my recharger, so she sits, and I BtM till my life is drained, then sit again. I imaging doing so shaves off a minute, maybe 2 of sitting time... because there will be sitting time as a Sorc. I will also BtM at a raid, because the raid is more important than the cost of the shots I waste on the skill.
The worst thing about leveling a nuker (SH/SPS/Sorc) is the boredom. I join pagans parties on Necro and sit in a safe spot. All I have to do is righth click the targetters name (or use macro) and press Servitor Attack hotkey. I can do this for 18 minutes at which time I step out just to resummon and park the pet and then go back and sit down.
And that has WHAT to do with being a Sorc?
Necro servitor crits about 35% rate with Focus and CoV. I've seen 4 in a row since cursed man. Thought they were nukes until it was brought to my attention that servitor crits put a message in the system message window "Critical Hit!".
..... Sorc, remember?
Nuker is just boring. Boring to the point where you have to almost make yourself get it to 7x becuase any long breaks make you nto want to play them anymore due to the monotanous grind (which keeps you in the same areas for many levels on end).
As a solo process, yes. Nukers see teh same scenery, mainly because we have to attak weak mobs. We can't take a beating, and hp heavy mobs drain all of our mp. I've a much wider solo/duo range on my BH sub than my Sorc main.
I'm not trying to be over critical, but if you play an sps and a necro, don't try to tell me about my class. It's a different experience than either of the two mentioned, though the SpS is pretty close.
Hi Tensharo,
Not that I have a problem with what you wrote, but what many MANY people have done, is that they've played OTHER classes and then commented on how the sorc must therefore not be so bad. Try playing a SORC, THEN tell us about the class.
I duo my SE with sorc friend, and on M.Def/Resist neutral mobs a Sorceror and a Necromancer are functionally the same except for Clear Mind versus higher levels of B2M provided the Necro is leveling with Death Spike and not CDL.
True statement. A sorc with an SE is not a bad pve, assuming the mobs are 2-3 shot. anything beyond that, the mana usage, even with the recharger is too high to be of value.
Mobs are 2 shot all the way up to 76 or so. No one makes you PvE in a PvP setup. You can keep the Recharger 4-5 levels behind the level of the nuker and not have to worry about recharge decrading.
By the time a Sorceror leaves Valley of Saints, his recharger does not need to be leveled up until he gets to level 78.
Our SpS of lower level was able to 2 shot mobs in FoD that my Sorc had to Prom, Prom + Aura bolt or Prom, Prom + melee a few times. The SpS fares better in FoD than the Sorc due to mob weaknesses. So, if you want to tell me about the Sorc, don't play a Mystic Muse, play an ArchMage.
I know at least 2 Arch Mages and 3 Sorcerors on Bartz that I have leveled with and they do not have to 3 shot mobs in Forest of the Dead. Use a PvE set to level, and avoiding the 3 shot mobs are trivial. They are all bunched up in one area.
If a Mystic Muse can 2 shot mobs in DC Robe Set with Hydroblast in Top A Grade PvP setup, then an Arch Mage can also two shot those mobs. The only benefit a MM has in FoTD is on the Vampires, and only a few of them are 3 shot with Hydroblast. The true benefit comes from the fact that the MM can 1 shot alot of them with Vortex or Overhit.
... DC robes are the way to go, both for pvp and pve for the sorc and for the sps. The idea is to 2 shot the mobs so you don't get bled or poisoned. Besides, in FoD, they drop enough herbs of life that if the occasional puppeteer bleeds you, you'll recover the hp fairly quick anyway, even without using your recharger to heal. (always assuming you want to never, ever click a heal potion)
On a support toon? I disagree. Tallum is much better especially in Forest of the Dead (and Valley of Saints). Mobs Bleed, Poison and Nuke and in FoTD those mobs are agro. If you have to waste MP Purifying and Healing the SE, you are wasting MP. Tallum Robes gives my 62 SE almost immunity to Bleed and Poison, and her M.Def is high due to the set bonus and her Tatoo setup.
Tallum and DC have the same cast speed btw. The only diff is -2 INT instead of -2 MEN (MP Regen, MP Pool, M.Def) and +8 M.Def and Poison/Bleed resist instead of Para Resist.
Tallum > DC for a buffer.
Since the herbs have come into play, areas that driop them do allow even a Sorc to nuke through a buff round... assuming they take their time, pick up drops as they go along, etc. If I wanted to wipe out a field in a few seconds, I could. But at a severe cost to my mana. As such, I pace myself, killing fewer mobs per buff round, but doing so in the hopes that I will sit less. Then again, I actually play a Sorc, which I strongly encourage anyone who wishes to speak on the subject to do.
If a 76 MM with a level 72 SE can nuke through a full buffround with full SE buffs doing this, there is nothing stopping a sorcerer from doing it and making him "take his time". As long as the SE is picking up the MP herbs, the Sorcerer should be able to go for many, many buffrounds without a break except for buffs.
BtM is worthless after level 40ish. 22 mp for 133 life? Not that the life is the problem due to the herb drops, as mentioned. Do you click your soulshot for every nuke or do you toggle? if you click for each nuke... well I suppose that's your own playstle, you do whatever you want... but in that case, I'll politely decline any further advice you might offer. If you toggle, and use BtM somewhat regularly (as suggested by replenishing life via herbs) then how much Sps are you spending on BtM?
For me... an Actual Sorc, BtM comes into play after I've run out of mana as has my recharger, so she sits, and I BtM till my life is drained, then sit again. I imaging doing so shaves off a minute, maybe 2 of sitting time... because there will be sitting time as a Sorc. I will also BtM at a raid, because the raid is more important than the cost of the shots I waste on the skill.
That's inefficient. The point should be to maximize your uptime, not wait until the recharge + nuker is OOMP and then try to Body to Mind. What if a mob nukes you when you and your recharger are OOMP? How are you going to heal. I fail to see how your way is better than any other.
And that has WHAT to do with being a Sorc?
...
..... Sorc, remember?
The OP mentions the other classes in his post, as have many other posters. Read the thread. Quite frankly, the grass is greener elsewhere and Sorcerer is pretty dead compared to SH/SPS and Necro. I was just illustrating how much more versatility of playstile is available on the other class - i.e. the grass is greener. Other classes that have good nuking prowess can actually join parties in places where true mages aren't ever thought to be invited.
As a solo process, yes. Nukers see teh same scenery, mainly because we have to attak weak mobs. We can't take a beating, and hp heavy mobs drain all of our mp. I've a much wider solo/duo range on my BH sub than my Sorc main.
I'm not trying to be over critical, but if you play an sps and a necro, don't try to tell me about my class. It's a different experience than either of the two mentioned, though the SpS is pretty close.
You act as if L2 is rocket science. SPS is worse off than Sorc IRT MP management because Active mana regen is alot more powerful than passive mana regen. You can moderate some of your MP regeneration, but they cannot. Body to Mind 1 is more powerful than you give it credit.
And I have played with Sorcerors as well as logged in and played their toons. I have played SH too. Some people have jobs and good friends help them get the XP they don't have the time to do themselves.
What you think I did while I was deactivated for 2 months.
I did 76 - 77 on a Mystic Muse in 4 days without recharges, btw.
PvE is not hard or long. You just have to realize that this game is made for Korea and if you don't play similar to them get ready for a long road ahead.
Especially as a Sorc.
I don't even wanna start about PvP gripes I've heard/experienced.
PvE is not hard or long. You just have to realize that this game is made for Korea and if you don't play similar to them get ready for a long road ahead.
Trensharo, what do the Koreans do that is different? Or, to state the question differently, how would we play to play similar to the Koreans?
I was wondering if the 3 lvl higher of surrender to fire over surreder to wind/water could be "the" advantage of sorc over sps/sh?
Then again, it would make too much sense...
I duo my SE with sorc friend, and on M.Def/Resist neutral mobs a Sorceror and a Necromancer are functionally the same except for Clear Mind versus higher levels of B2M provided the Necro is leveling with Death Spike and not CDL.
Higher levels of BtM make a huge difference.
Mobs are 2 shot all the way up to 76 or so. No one makes you PvE in a PvP setup. You can keep the Recharger 4-5 levels behind the level of the nuker and not have to worry about recharge decrading.
By the time a Sorceror leaves Valley of Saints, his recharger does not need to be leveled up until he gets to level 78.
I know at least 2 Arch Mages and 3 Sorcerors on Bartz that I have leveled with and they do not have to 3 shot mobs in Forest of the Dead. Use a PvE set to level, and avoiding the 3 shot mobs are trivial. They are all bunched up in one area.
If a Mystic Muse can 2 shot mobs in DC Robe Set with Hydroblast in Top A Grade PvP setup, then an Arch Mage can also two shot those mobs. The only benefit a MM has in FoTD is on the Vampires, and only a few of them are 3 shot with Hydroblast. The true benefit comes from the fact that the MM can 1 shot alot of them with Vortex or Overhit.
The DC set (imo) is the optimal pvp AND pve setup for the sorc. (I'm not talking about the buffers here). There was another thread debating this, so, feel free to disagree if you wish, I'm going on my experience in the matter. The setup is not hindering my sorc.
Our SpS (lower level in DC as well) could 2 shot the mobs in FoD. I could 2-shot the mobs in FoD. Some mobs required a third nuke or some sword slapping, whereas our sps was still able to 2 shot them. Not trying to have a philosophical debate, just telling you what I've seen with my own eyes.
On a support toon? I disagree. Tallum is much better especially in Forest of the Dead (and Valley of Saints). Mobs Bleed, Poison and Nuke and in FoTD those mobs are agro. If you have to waste MP Purifying and Healing the SE, you are wasting MP. Tallum Robes gives my 62 SE almost immunity to Bleed and Poison, and her M.Def is high due to the set bonus and her Tatoo setup.
Tallum and DC have the same cast speed btw. The only diff is -2 INT instead of -2 MEN (MP Regen, MP Pool, M.Def) and +8 M.Def and Poison/Bleed resist instead of Para Resist.
Tallum > DC for a buffer.
Sorry if I wasn't clear. I was talking about the DD, not the buffer.
If a 76 MM with a level 72 SE can nuke through a full buffround with full SE buffs doing this, there is nothing stopping a sorcerer from doing it and making him "take his time". As long as the SE is picking up the MP herbs, the Sorcerer should be able to go for many, many buffrounds without a break except for buffs.
I have a boxed SE (You live SE's are a rarity... and we love you). As such I (Sorc) pick up all the pots. I'll give your method a try.
That's inefficient. The point should be to maximize your uptime, not wait until the recharge + nuker is OOMP and then try to Body to Mind. What if a mob nukes you when you and your recharger are OOMP? How are you going to heal. I fail to see how your way is better than any other.
I would argue that my way is efficient... in particular with the cost of shots (1 prom is 67 mp, 1 btm gives back 22, so toggled is quite expensive). I plan my circuit working back toward a safe spot as mana runs low. Heal pots help in sticky situations as do elixers ;). Of course, it's more adena-wise to use them only as an emergency rsource. But, it all depends on whether adena is an issue, I suppose.
The OP mentions the other classes in his post, as have many other posters. Read the thread. Quite frankly, the grass is greener elsewhere and Sorcerer is pretty dead compared to SH/SPS and Necro. I was just illustrating how much more versatility of playstile is available on the other class - i.e. the grass is greener. Other classes that have good nuking prowess can actually join parties in places where true mages aren't ever thought to be invited.
Sorc is the least versatile of the nuker classes. When I chose it, it was for the ability to Nuke and to Crowd Control (sleep cloud) and the nerf to SC effectively kaboshed by CC role. I understand the Grass is greener scenario, and ultimately we all make our own decisions on what class to play. Nerfs come around to most, but the sc nerf actually changed the entire nature of my toon. Not all Sorcs chose their class for the crowd control, so many are still nuking away with glee. I specificaklly went for that versatility of roles and the nature of my class was altered.
You act as if L2 is rocket science. SPS is worse off than Sorc IRT MP management because Active mana regen is alot more powerful than passive mana regen. You can moderate some of your MP regeneration, but they cannot. Body to Mind 1 is more powerful than you give it credit.
You give it too much credit. Of course, I recommend actually leveling your own sorc and relying on btm1 for mana management.
And I have played with Sorcerors as well as logged in and played their toons. I have played SH too. Some people have jobs and good friends help them get the XP they don't have the time to do themselves.
What you think I did while I was deactivated for 2 months.
Logging in on a Sorc and actually leveling oen are a bit different. Once the novelty of playing a different toon wears off and the monotony of the grind sets in, we can chat about btm1 in the 70s. I am the only one with access to my account, and earn every xp on my own. But to each his own.
I did 76 - 77 on a Mystic Muse in 4 days without recharges, btw.
Wow.
PvE is not hard or long. You just have to realize that this game is made for Korea and if you don't play similar to them get ready for a long road ahead.
Especially as a Sorc.
I don't even wanna start about PvP gripes I've heard/experienced.
I was wondering if the 3 lvl higher of surrender to fire over surreder to wind/water could be "the" advantage of sorc over sps/sh?
Then again, it would make too much sense...
No.
Human Wizards get Surrender to Fire in D Grade, Sorcerers get Surrender to Wind in C Grade, and Necromancers get Curse Gloom in C Grade.
Elven Wizards get Surrender to Earth in D Grade, and Spellsingers get Surrender to Water in C Grade.
Dark Elf Wizards get Surrender to Poison in D Grade, and Surrender to Wind in C Grade.
The 3 extra levels of Surrender to fire are there because Human Wizards start getting Surrender to Fire at level 25 whereas SPS and SH start getting their "main" surrenders 4 skill levels later at 40.
Surrender to Fire 1 - 3 = 25/30/35
Surrender to Fire 4/Water 1/Wind 1 = 40
The DC set (imo) is the optimal pvp AND pve setup for the sorc. (I'm not talking about the buffers here). There was another thread debating this, so, feel free to disagree if you wish, I'm going on my experience in the matter. The setup is not hindering my sorc.
DC is not optimal for PvE. Cast speed doesn't necessarily = optimal, especially when it comes at a huge hit in efficiency. Having to 3 shot mobs you would 2 shot in a more appropriate PvE (i.e. M.Atk) setup is inefficient and you are causing yourself more unnecessary grief by using it for PvE.
The same can also be said for Tatoo setups at various levels. The extra CON from that tatoo has negligible returns for a nuker that doesn't use cursed bones, it can be used in other places to offset the negative aspects of other sets.
Whatever floats your boat. I have done serious grinding at most levels of the game and know what works best for what. This includes a nuker with equivalent cast speed to a Sorcerer.
Our SpS (lower level in DC as well) could 2 shot the mobs in FoD. I could 2-shot the mobs in FoD. Some mobs required a third nuke or some sword slapping, whereas our sps was still able to 2 shot them. Not trying to have a philosophical debate, just telling you what I've seen with my own eyes.
I would have to know which mobs in FoTD you are talking about since I know for a fact there are mobs there that con Dark Blue to a level 72 toon and are 2 shot even for a 72 Necro with just Emp 3. A level 72 SPS would also 2 shot them in DC Robes with Hydroblast and a +3 SoM/Acumen.
The only thing you're telling me is the SPS is lower level. He may have a +16 Homu for all I know. More infor is needed, because I know a Sorc of higher level should be able to 2 shot anything that an SPS of equal level can 2 shot, and even more. The M.Atk descrepency between a 77 MM and 72 Necro with my gear is += 200 with top A Grade Gear +4/3 Trivially Enchanted. The same goes for Sorc.
A Sorc can two shot deeper into FoTD than an SPS. I know this for a fact, and from experience.
I have a boxed SE (You live SE's are a rarity... and we love you). As such I (Sorc) pick up all the pots. I'll give your method a try.
Yes, I play my SE live all the time for friends, because I play like 18 hours a day and only level at night when the majority of players are asleep. I sleep during the day :) Until the Summer Semester when I start college again, at least.
MP gained from herbs is based on your MP pool. The more Max, MP you have, the more MP you get from it. Picking up herbs on the nuker is effectively a waste of MP if your buffer has the right setup. I choose Tallum Robes because it offers the greatest degree of protection for the buffer (Resists and +M.Def) as well as equivalent cast speed to DC but without the M.Def/MP Regen/MP Pool hit. You need that because with a Conversion Weapon the Buffer's HP will be low :)
The buffer will have about 1k MP more than the Nuker, so it will get alot more MP from the herbs. Since the nuker has Higher Mana gain (and if the buffer is near the level of the nuker), you get More MP per pot because the buffer gets more MP from the herb and in effect the MP the buffer gets is more effective MP for the nuker due to recharge efficiency (MP Given > MP used).
I would argue that my way is efficient... in particular with the cost of shots (1 prom is 67 mp, 1 btm gives back 22, so toggled is quite expensive). I plan my circuit working back toward a safe spot as mana runs low. Heal pots help in sticky situations as do elixers . Of course, it's more adena-wise to use them only as an emergency rsource. But, it all depends on whether adena is an issue, I suppose.
Which is why I made the comment about Korean v. NA/EU playstyle. Over yonder, they make and adher to priorities.
When I go grinding, adena is the least of my worries. Getting through these levels as fast and efficiently as I can are my first priorities. Sometimes I don't even care if I leave adena fields on the ground when I'm done - even more common now that they "nerfed spam pickup".
That statement is ironic seeing as how most players will tell you to make the choice between grinding XP and grinding adena at any particular point in time (I can find and quote you if you wish).
Body to Mind is active mana regeneration. It's powerful. For an SH, 1 Body to Mind at max level won't even give them enough MP for 1 nuke unless they're using Death Spike so I fail to see why it giving "so little MP" is such a problem. Active Mana regen that you can spam and control is alot more powerful than what the SPS was given in the form of Mana Regeneration. They sit when they are out of MP. You get about 20 More MP/Tick average than they do using Body to Mind (because you can do it indefinitely if you use Healing Potions from the Grocery store).
Sorc is the least versatile of the nuker classes. When I chose it, it was for the ability to Nuke and to Crowd Control (sleep cloud) and the nerf to SC effectively kaboshed by CC role. I understand the Grass is greener scenario, and ultimately we all make our own decisions on what class to play. Nerfs come around to most, but the sc nerf actually changed the entire nature of my toon. Not all Sorcs chose their class for the crowd control, so many are still nuking away with glee. I specificaklly went for that versatility of roles and the nature of my class was altered.
Such things happens when skills (Sleep, Sleeping Cloud, Aura Flare) are abused. I'm sure the SPS are equally furious.
You give it too much credit. Of course, I recommend actually leveling your own sorc and relying on btm1 for mana management.
I can get one to 7x in 1.5-2 weeks. Let's make a deal. You roll an SPS or Necro and I'll roll a Sorc! We can race, and post Screenshots when we hit each grade. Game?
BTW, like I was told when I started Lineage II.
It's not worth playing a nuker without a boxxed buffer.
It's not like I don't have my own. I have no problems leveling an SPS with no recharges, do you think I will have issues leveling a Sorc with Clear Mind and Body to Mind 1?
Logging in on a Sorc and actually leveling oen are a bit different. Once the novelty of playing a different toon wears off and the monotony of the grind sets in, we can chat about btm1 in the 70s. I am the only one with access to my account, and earn every xp on my own. But to each his own.
I have logged in Sorc and SH friends and gotten them levels because they didn't have the time to grind for multiple hours.
Account sharing/helping people level/etc. is not against the EULA, so I see nothing wrong with helping friends. I even PL'd one of their SE buffers for them.
Yes, let's level up those alts to 7x so we can talk about Body to Mind 1 :P
Trensharo,
Firstly I appreciate the discussion and the politeness.
Second, I'll be replying without quoting you this time.
Thirdly, while I certainly appreciate your offer to level other Nukers and see who gets there first... my Sorc is my main and I still haven't gotten him as high he needs to be (and my sub is a BH... not noble yet.... feel my pain). So for the sake of practicality I'll have to pass. 2 jobs & a family make L2 a hobby, not a lifestyle for me.
Mobs in FoD were at the back end, so we are talking vampire warlords, warriors, magisters, puppeteers, scavengers, etc. SpS is lower A grade, SoM +3. My som is +5. (Not sure which mobs in particular she was taking down better than me, she's all but abandoned her sps).
I am fully aware that the SpS also suffers from the sleep cloud nerf. That is another class that has mana management issues and whose value to an xp group was more for aoe and crowd control than the short-term DD they can provide. Still, they get 2 elements, faster cast and earlier overhit, while we get higher per-nuke damage btm1 (yay) and... well that's about it.
As for grinding for XP vs Adena... I tend to advise players (especially new ones) that you do one or the other. That said, in my days in FoD, by not using btm between nukes, I actually averaged just over in adena drops what I was outputting in shots, so I was, technically, able to get positive xp and adena at the same time there. =) Doesn't factor in materials, but I deposit all that to the clan anyway.
Have a happy new year, we'll pick this up again soon (because Sorc will still suck in '08!)
Mobs in FoD were at the back end, so we are talking vampire warlords, warriors, magisters, puppeteers, scavengers, etc. SpS is lower A grade, SoM +3. My som is +5. (Not sure which mobs in particular she was taking down better than me, she's all but abandoned her sps).
That's like saying Sorc is > SPS because Sorc can 2 shot an Atrox (Fire Weak) with 2 Prominence and SPS can't do it with 2 Hydroblasts.
Holy Weak mobs are 2 shot because they are weak to holy, and the overhit nuke is much higher power than Hydroblasts. If the SPS gets Holy Weapon, it may be able to even 1 shot a few with the Overhit.
So I'll have to say it is not an apples/apples comparison.
Also, unless the SPS has some really good buffs, it can't overhit every mob. Since it is A Grade, it doesn't have Light Vortex so XP there isn't necessarily uber for him yet. In a few levels it will be :)
I am fully aware that the SpS also suffers from the sleep cloud nerf. That is another class that has mana management issues and whose value to an xp group was more for aoe and crowd control than the short-term DD they can provide. Still, they get 2 elements, faster cast and earlier overhit, while we get higher per-nuke damage btm1 (yay) and... well that's about it.
What spammable nuke does SPS get for general XP purposes? The only nuker that can totally switch elements is Spell Howler. They get Hurricane and Death spike in Addition to the respective Vortexes and a Dark-element Overhit.
SPS has 1 element, Aqua. Solar Flare nad Light Vortex are utility skills designed to facilitate a more versatile PvE experience.
Go to Isle of Prayer on an SPS where all the mobs are Aqua-Resist and tell me how well you do spamming Light Vortex and Solar Flare.
That's like saying Sorc is > SPS because Sorc can 2 shot an Atrox (Fire Weak) with 2 Prominence and SPS can't do it with 2 Hydroblasts.
Holy Weak mobs are 2 shot because they are weak to holy, and the overhit nuke is much higher power than Hydroblasts. If the SPS gets Holy Weapon, it may be able to even 1 shot a few with the Overhit.
So I'll have to say it is not an apples/apples comparison.
You mentioned FoD in particular and I replied specifically about the mobs in FoD:
In my experience, I could go all day long on a Mystic Muse with an SE in Tallum Robes and a Conversion weapon in Forest of the Dead.
Our SpS of lower level was able to 2 shot mobs in FoD that my Sorc had to Prom, Prom + Aura bolt or Prom, Prom + melee a few times. The SpS fares better in FoD than the Sorc due to mob weaknesses. So, if you want to tell me about the Sorc, don't play a Mystic Muse, play an ArchMage.
Obviously, the weak to fire mobs fall faster for the Sorc. Thus it's all relative and that was my point.
Also, unless the SPS has some really good buffs, it can't overhit every mob. Since it is A Grade, it doesn't have Light Vortex so XP there isn't necessarily uber for him yet. In a few levels it will be :)
Well, the Sorc can't overhit any mobs till 77.
What spammable nuke does SPS get for general XP purposes? The only nuker that can totally switch elements is Spell Howler. They get Hurricane and Death spike in Addition to the respective Vortexes and a Dark-element Overhit.
SPS has 1 element, Aqua. Solar Flare nad Light Vortex are utility skills designed to facilitate a more versatile PvE experience.
Go to Isle of Prayer on an SPS where all the mobs are Aqua-Resist and tell me how well you do spamming Light Vortex and Solar Flare.
Tell me how you like taking a sorc to FoG and spamming Prominence against fire resist mobs, or fire vortex, or blazing circle? Aura flare?
Tell me how you like taking a sorc to FoG and spamming Prominence against fire resist mobs, or fire vortex, or blazing circle? Aura flare?
Again, it's all relative.
Not all mobs in FoG are Fire resist. Last time I was there, only a few were. I did notice most have an M.Def classification, though. Since it's been a while, I will log in my dagger spy that's camped there and Silent Move around to make sure, and correct my post if I am wrong :)
And what nuker soloes in FoG?
A Nuker AoE group will still take a Sorc over an SH or Necro because they have 2 AoEs they can chain in that kind of group (usually have SWS and BD) so their damage is still overall good compared to the others.
And yes, the FoTD example I made was a valid example, since there are still purple mobs there that I cannot 2 shot on MM @ level 77 with Hydroblast, but a level 72/74 Sorceror can take them out with 2 Prominence in the same gear. Those are mobs without any specific resists/weaknesses i.e. Apples/Apples comparison.
My point is that a class that is fighting a mob that has resistances to their particular attack is always going to have a harder time. This is not a new concept nor is it unique to the SpS.
You might also note that as much as I point out the reasons the Sorc is a second-class class, I've expressed similar sympathy for the SpS.
I get the feeling that you want to drag this down the winding path of pointing out every game instance in which the SpS has less advantage than the sorc, and it's getting a bit tedious.
I get the feeling that you want to drag this down the winding path of pointing out every game instance in which the SpS has less advantage than the sorc, and it's getting a bit tedious.
No sir. You are the one who pointed out that an SPS was 2 shotting mobs you could not 3 shot in FoTD at a lower level,a nd repeated it to make a point. Wow, a LOWER LEVEL SPS 2 shotting Holy Weak mobs because the Solar Flare hits for about 400 damage more than the Hydroblast... 500 being a number I just pulled out of my head, but it seems fairly accurate seeing as how Solar Spark hits mobs there for 1k damage.
What you said is incorrect in this instance.
Mobs in FoTD do not have Holy or Aqua Resist. Some have Fire Weakness, some Have Wind Weakness (flying mobs), and some have Holy Weakness.
My point was that it is not an apples:apples comparison to say that a lower level SPS can 2 shot a mob that you have to 3 shot when the mob is Holy Weak and they are casting a high power overhit nuke of Holy attribute as the second nuke. It's lopsided. My example was to illustrate the lopsidedness of that comparison.
Instead, I offered my experience which is that with same top A Grade gear (+3 SoM, DC Robes) a Sorceror can 2 shot light blue/purple mobs with Prominence that I cannot 2 shot with Hydroblast at level 77 with a +1 nuke.
The only reason why the SPS can 2 shot the mob that u have to 3 shot is due to Holy Weakness and the power rating on Solar Flare. If that was any neutral mob (no specific elemental weaknesses), the SPS would take the same or greater shots to kill the mob as the Sorc would due to Sorcerer M.Atk advantage.
And if you're killing with any respectable speed, you cannot Solar Flare every mob there, anyways, unless you have some really good buffs.
There is no reason to drag this along. It's far to trivial.
Well i have always enjoyed playing my Sorceress, in fact it's been my best and most favourite character ever since i started her!
MP can be a problem, but if u are in party with a SE they normally manage to keep me topped up along with my B2M spamming alot i'm ok. the healers heal my lost HP and i'm a great DD and welcome member of the party :)