Came to mind after a day of passing through Fields of Massacre, Forbidden Gateway and Forsaken Plains and seeing corpses of our favorite automated friends. Dead for probably hours earlier than my arrival. They were certainly still there long after I'd left 4 buff rounds later. Dead, yet fully equipped with their dark blue OE'd weapons sticking up like incandescent grave markers.
Report them? Sure I could, just like the other 3 - 4 live players had already done.
But I'm thinking at this point that clearly those live players should be compensated for their troubles. After all, the investigation that a GM does will take days, if not weeks. And we all know the "tree in a forest" approach all but ensures those automated players will pass the investigation anyway.
So why not give all classes the ability to loot any character that has been dead for longer than, say, 2 minutes in a non-siege combat zone? I mean come on, you're dead and unattended, so you deserve to have 100% of your items taken from you. It's more civil than grave robbing, and much more economy friendly than anything that automated players are doing for the market presently. And just think of the look on the controller's face when he/she wakes up the next morning to find their naked toons. Priceless!
Yes, I know this would never work, or at least not as I imagine it. But dream with me anyway:
You're on your way to your chosen hunting ground and find "Blxllxplxxxxzzt" face up, in full Tallum Heavy, with what appears to be +10 duals. Next to him is his healer, "GuudbuffgiralXOXO" in BW robes and carrying a SOM. And sprawled out at the head of this curious procession is the automated spoiler, "xxBOOxBEExx", also equipped in top gear and clearly unattended. All dead and yours to loot.
Wouldn't that be cool?
[note: Posted in General Forum for wider audience viewing.]
2mins? WTH? You know, people stay dead, waiting for better rez etc. Hour or two atleast, other than that, I'd go train train train em all!
Duration is really not that important. Like I said, those corpses were there for a very long time. Heck, they're probably still there. (Someone on Devianne go run through the areas mentioned and let us know.)
Well, it was fun when there was drop on death, you could train "them" in catacombs and get like 800k green seal stones at a time...but "they" complained I guess and we lost drop on death....now it is pointless to resist them...the same ones you report 6 months in a row are still doing their thing in the SAME spot 24/7.
Well, it was fun when there was drop on death, you could train "them" in catacombs and get like 800k green seal stones at a time...but "they" complained I guess and we lost drop on death....now it is pointless to resist them...the same ones you report 6 months in a row are still doing their thing in the SAME spot 24/7.
You do realize that a 9 man party using no shots lvl alot slower than u do in a duo right? ofc they are gonna be there for a long time... :D
So why not give all classes the ability to loot any character that has been dead for longer than, say, 2 minutes in a non-siege combat zone? I mean come on, you're dead and unattended, so you deserve to have 100% of your items taken from you.
Your automated friends have the ability to automatically disconnect on death. Legit players (trained while afk, for example) cannot.
And why do you think that you deserve easy loot? Go work for it :p
The point was that even though it is obvious(no player collisions anyone??) that they arent using the legit client, and they have been reported, they are still there. Not that they are in the same spot(which thy probably dlvl for anyway).
Your automated friends have the ability to automatically disconnect on death.
I admittedly wrote this completely ignorant of 3rd party processes and capabilities. But it begs the question, if they can D/C, why haven't they?
And why do you think that you deserve easy loot?
Ha! I did not say that I deserved easy loot, only the automated players DESERVED to lose it. Trust me, I wouldn't make my living finding or training these types, but if I stumble upon them, hey, why not loot them for all they're worth? :D :D :D
Your automated friends have the ability to automatically disconnect on death.
I admittedly wrote this completely ignorant of 3rd party processes and capabilities. But it begs the question, if they can D/C, why haven't they?
Maybe because they don't need to... so far?
They can forcelog on seeing a red, what makes you think that they would not be able to disconnect on death?
And why do you think that you deserve easy loot?
Ha! I did not say that I deserved easy loot, only the automated players DESERVED to lose it.
No. Automated players deserve to be BANNED. And the loot from them - to be confiscated by NCsoft, but not to be given to some random (or not) player that happened to be around.
2mins? WTH? You know, people stay dead, waiting for better rez etc. Hour or two atleast, other than that, I'd go train train train em all!
OMG!!! QFT!
Anyone above 75+ will wait a long time for a good rez, hell even as a level 40 I might wait more than 2 mins for a rez, or even up to 15 or so. Geez o.O Yeah I'd love to have all my gear ***** because I died and walked away to get a drink or something.
This is a great idea! But sorry to burst your bubble, NcSoft will never take into consideration, the good ideas to prevent botting never go into effect, you should know that by now.
How could this hurt? If you give people an hour to get up and they do not know, there is seriously something wrong.. Also, although the adena farmer bots may easily be able to program to automatically get up, they do not care about exp (atleast it doesn't seem like it) so it would not do much to them but to those players who actually play the game but want to bot levels, this would deter them a lot which would be beneficial.
How could this hurt? If you give people an hour to get up and they do not know, there is seriously something wrong..
IRL something wrong, yes. ive been known on more than one occasion to have to emergency AFK to take people to the hospital AND IT CANT WAIT for soe.
Also, although the adena farmer bots may easily be able to program to automatically get up, they do not care about exp (atleast it doesn't seem like it)
Farmers are live players with bot support. RB farmers, adena farmers all. smart business in a hostile game such as this is to bring live people to play instead of 100% bots. SOME of them are real. those ones are the ones that survive the 1000 mob trains and never pop shots. EXP might not be a problem for them, but it wont hurt their Adena supply either. we arent talking 1 SOM from a bot train causing an adena uproar in RMT prices. 1 SOM is easily replaced. also very FEW FARMERS use A grade. for good reason too. they dont spend money killing mobs by using pots,shots, scrolls, or energystones, so for the FARMERS yure not hurting them AT ALL by swiping their gear. that gear's cost is nothing for the farmer who can BOT back that gear by drop or farming cash.
so it would not do much to them but to those players who actually play the game but want to bot levels, this would deter them a lot which would be beneficial.
players botting is a different issue. but remember Cheaters are not Farmers. Cheaters will by ANY means gain an upper hand. you steal a +3 Arcana, he 'bays a +4 and boxed support. how does this help? ITS ENCOURAGING CHEATING!
so how do you deal with cheaters in a game where actually STEALING items from them HELPS them ? i know how I do it, but i leave your method up to you.
Now don't get your panties in a twist everyone. Let's expand on the original idea here a bit.
Okay, you report "lkjghlkds" and the powers that be decide they are, in fact, soulless.
Instead of banning the little ****, make that ONE toon spoilable on death. Eventually someone will train or kill him. The lords above already determined he was soulless.
Sure they'll do a bit more damage farming till killed the next time--but after they are reported and investigated leave them in game & let them pop like a pinata.
Better yet, when ol' "lkjghlkds" gets confirmed as a bot, leave him alive and hang a tag of some kind on him that only computers outside of that same account can see. Don't know if that is possible but it would be funny as hell!
so, in essence, drakkos, let the players decide the fate of the botters?
i know this is going to sound bad ...
let me quote Jesus for a moment; "Let him that is without sin cast the first stone"
i can report whomever i wish for whatever reason i so choose. i could accuse Charmille of IG Swearing, should Charmille be tagged as an EULA violator and POP when i kill?
i think someone suggested a while ago how that all bots should be made Red when theyre found guilty of botting.
this idea holds much the same concept, though somewhat different in implementation.
it has been said before, but its worth repeating; the end result of Open Cheating be it botting or otherwise SHOULD be a ban. NOT an otherwise derogatory, or defamatory public statement. thats Harassment.
My first thought was like Charmille - 2 minutes is not nearly long enough. On reading Spud's response though - I think he's right. Real-life emergencies will inevitably come up for a few players, situations where they would not log off, but have their attention immediately diverted. So, on that basis, no, this is something that should not be implemented.
so, in essence, drakkos, let the players decide the fate of the botters?
i know this is going to sound bad ...
let me quote Jesus for a moment; "Let him that is without sin cast the first stone"
i can report whomever i wish for whatever reason i so choose. i could accuse Charmille of IG Swearing, should Charmille be tagged as an EULA violator and POP when i kill?
i think someone suggested a while ago how that all bots should be made Red when theyre found guilty of botting.
this idea holds much the same concept, though somewhat different in implementation.
it has been said before, but its worth repeating; the end result of Open Cheating be it botting or otherwise SHOULD be a ban. NOT an otherwise derogatory, or defamatory public statement. thats Harassment.
Hold on there hoss, I didn't say you flag the soulless because 'someone reported it'. I said the soulless gets tagged after the GM's PROVE it's one of the soulless.
If you report Charmille for IG swearing and have no ss of it, nothing should happen to Charmille. There would be no proof in that case.
If the GMs can't tell through an investigation that a reported bot is a bot then they shouldn't be in the GM role.
Presumably if someone reports "Drakkos is a bot" tomorrow, after watching my hysterical game play for a bit, the GM's would go "no WAY anyone could program a bot to be that bad!"
So yeah--I am saying to tag 'em and flag 'em and let them stand....AFTER sufficient evidence is collected to ensure they are bots.
So yeah--I am saying to tag 'em and flag 'em and let them stand....AFTER sufficient evidence is collected to ensure they are bots.
So, basically you are saying that NCsoft should tell players: "Yes, we know that this toon bots, but we aren't banning it", correct?
yup. How's that banning thing worked for you so far?
Did you even read my note?
TAG THEM AFTER PROOF IS OBTAINED AND LET REAL PLAYERS KILL THEM.
Could it work WORSE than the current system?
So after real players kill them then what? They just go back to botting?
Nvm. As often happens, there is more support for maintaining the status quo that allows the easy use of 3rd party programs than there is for trying anything at all different.
Let's keep things just like they are. That should work just fine.
So why not give all classes the ability to loot any character that has been dead for longer than, say, 2 minutes in a non-siege combat zone? I mean come on, you're dead and unattended, so you deserve to have 100% of your items taken from you.
Your automated friends have the ability to automatically disconnect on death. Legit players (trained while afk, for example) cannot.
And why do you think that you deserve easy loot? Go work for it :p
I was once laying dead in a catacomb for around 12 hours at the gatekeeper (on the water side) where it is suposed to be safe from mobs.
I had to go afk for what I thought would be 30min, but something came up and I was gone for 12 hours. When I came back I found myself dead (by mob) at the gatekeeper.
No mob could had agroed on me there unless someone brought one and did a switch on it to force the mob to attack me.
If I where to loose all my items because of that I would most probaly leave the game and start playing what I used to play before I started with L2 and that was Black Hawk Down, BF2 and other FPS games (no not CS).
So after real players kill them then what? They just go back to botting?
Nvm. As often happens, there is more support for maintaining the status quo that allows the easy use of 3rd party programs than there is for trying anything at all different.
Let's keep things just like they are. That should work just fine.
I think you missed their point. If it is proven that a person was botting, ban them. Why keep them in game and assign a form of legitimize player harassment that only encourages mob mentality and witchhunting. Even worse, it allows them to continue what they are doing instead of removing that account from the game.
everyone of us knows, that they just dont WANT to harm the big part of the bots ... they wont change anything - never. every *!$%& private server could detect bots and i bet the nc servers do even better ... just accept it ... we (the legit players) wont change anything... but red flaggin bots would be very nice so u could clear ur lvling spot
Plus them making 75-80 harder and then increased level cap.. The minority never was the minority, its the truth that it is a majority of bots... I shouldn't have resubscribed just yet, I should have waited until Kamael came on live so I feel like I can actually compete with others while not cheating.
So in other words the plan is full of holes? That's right, it's easier to point fingers at the detractors of the idea and say OBVIOUSLY YOU WANT TO KEEP THE BOTS IN GAME, meeep!
If someone was botting, they should be banned. But in the case of a mistake ban, it would be completely insane to throw the characters gear to the wind in case the account was unbanned later.
And there are ALWAYS 'detractors' when it comes to anti-bot ideas aren't there Ellie?
Always--bunches of detractors--tons and legions of detractors.
They all have one theme: "THAT won't work...no".
See, here's the point of the whole looting thread the OP started: It's legitimized griefing of bots.
They don't KNOW they've been targeted, found by GM's to be a bot, and tagged till they lose all their stuff-- THEN they get banned. I think that not-so-subtle concept has been there from the start of this conversation.
Once they are banned currently it takes them a nano-second to get the next game card registered and back they come withh a new bot toon on a new account.
The OP's idea wouldn't change that--it would just give players a little SATISFACTION before the bot was banned.
He never said this would eliminate bots--he said it would be fun for players. And I agree.
Is it feasible?--lol..probably not.
Would it effect bot #'s?...probably not.
The real point of this thread now has become not whether there is merit to the OP's fun post or my comments. Now we have moved to where we ALWAYS move on any anti-bot thread....
Some number of people immediately argue against doing ANYTHING to bots that might upset the way things are.
I'm not making any accusations against anyone in particular but rather pointing out that it is always, always this way.
i think u dont get the point ... especially mine - did u ever see nc doing anything big against the bots ? no. did we (the legit players) did ever get any ideas (doesnt matter if good or bad) thru to the gms ? ... NO. what did we get ? YES we where forum banned for standing up... and we got a beautiful "whine about the bots" thread where the gms can point at and never look in again ...
Sorry Drakkos, I don't think "anything" is always better than status quo. Your solution is worse IMHO.
If you're so stuck on bots that you want to spend playtime to grief them, you might want to consider having a break. Two wrongs don't make a right. Griefing a griefer is not suddenly ok.
It doesn't take more time for bots to recreate an account if they're flagged "drop on death" by a GM than if they're banned. What's your point there ? :confused:
L2 needs solution to get rid of bots WITHOUT players having to spend their time fighting them. According to some botters, a relaxed server would make them stop. Maybe it can help.
Anyway, it sounds more like an implicit "I want a cheap way to get stuff" thread.
i think u dont get the point ... especially mine - did u ever see nc doing anything big against the bots ? no. did we (the legit players) did ever get any ideas (doesnt matter if good or bad) thru to the gms ? ... NO. what did we get ? YES we where forum banned for standing up... and we got a beautiful "whine about the bots" thread where the gms can point at and never look in again ...
Actually, that's not even remotely true. There have been many instances of very large bans. So large that "so called" legit players (who can say?) where caught up in it.
Players coming to these forums noticing that suddenly the servers were light status (from normal/heavy) and that large swaths of bots were gone.
I personally have reported bot groups to find them removed.
The issue for NC is that they are a bit stubborn and arrogant. Unlike other companies that might announce their bannings, NC usually doesn't.
If once per month they said "NC has banned 'x' amount of players this month" then, whether or not it really means anything, players would have some idea that something has been done.
But NC doesn't do this. Because of this it seems that they are silent to so many players. This creates bad will.
And again, in the end, you can't remove these things permanently. Not one A class title that I know of can.
My initial thought is that the game engine needs to be built from the ground up to be difficult t bot. however, with the great amounts of money to be made, I'm sure there are programmers out there who would be willing to find ways to create bots for a small part of that money.
If NC was to create several instances then you probably would see far less bots. Doesn't really fix the problem but it does sweep it under the rug. That would also affect the open nature of the game and allow players to hide in instances as well.
As far as the reasons that NC can't just roam around the landscape and ban on sight? Well, they don't tell us why. Or they do say that they don't want to ban legit players if they can help it.
i think u dont get the point ... especially mine - did u ever see nc doing anything big against the bots ? no. did we (the legit players) did ever get any ideas (doesnt matter if good or bad) thru to the gms ? ... NO. what did we get ? YES we where forum banned for standing up... and we got a beautiful "whine about the bots" thread where the gms can point at and never look in again ...
In-game solutions for what's really just a computer security issue is stupid.
I'll fully admit I don't believe NCSoft will do much proactive against bot programs anymore than Blizzard, SoE, or any other mmog company does.
But looking just at lineage2 -- if you ever tried to hunt in Branded or Apostate in C3 or C4, you faced a near constant stream of hi-level griefers, bringing trains to drop on lowbie c-graders in hopes you'd drop your Karmian. Of course people claimed that training was a great tool against bots, but it was used far more often in my experience to beat up and try to harvest lowbie players (like me).
If, by some stroke of radical change, NCSoft wanted to be proactive on bots, whatever change they make really really should make the game more fun, not less fun.
Letting some dipswitch who just killed me also loot my gear, just cuz I'm waiting for a better-than-clan-hall rez, don't amount to fun.
It doesn't take more time for bots to recreate an account if they're flagged "drop on death" by a GM than if they're banned. What's your point there ?
Exactly. If you don't get satifaction from bots being banned, then this is just an idea to get free gear.
Would I like to come across a pile of A grade gear ready for spam pick up? Sure. I just don't think anyone should benefit from the "unclean hands" of those deserving a banning.
Wouldnt it be simpler for GMs to just ban then though? What's the point of doing all that complicated stuff when you know that even with the simple stuff of just baning the automatons GMs arent doing all that great a job of it.