What do you guys think? Does L2 simulate real life in a way? regarding Politics and Money? Hardship, working for money, playing the market etc etc, Lotto and Horse Races as well.
if RL economics were like L2 economics anyone with half a brain and a hundred bucks to invest would be a millionaire
So you are qualified?
L2 economics follow the same underlying laws as rl economics because NCSoft has (wisely) refraiined from putting all kinds of artificial price limits and auction houses in the game. For those players who have had some graduate level economics courses, the elegance of the market will be evident.
Re Politics: I see game politics played on many levels and the point that the smaller clans must be better at it is well taken. True, there is a lot of high school mentality politics in L2, but we also see that in rl where the leader of a big country might feel that they can go Pwn a smaller country because of some perceived insult. But I also see the occasional brilliant political moves if the leader is wise enough and has the right interpersonal skills, there have been some impressive fait accomplis on my server.
One of the best things about L2 is how the same types of people are present as in rl so we see the same typs of things happening, only intensified because of the faster time frame.
Sure, if someone understands economics in rl they will make a fortune just like in L2. It may take longer, but the same rules apply. For example, the first million is the hardest to make and after that they become progressively easier.
L2's economy is NOTHING like the real world. NOT EVEN CLOSE.
U cant "ebuy" in real world. No more differences imho.
But you can... People in 'the real world' buy jobs or better houses or all kinds of things all the time because they have more money. And many people cheat, lie, steal or do other illegal activities to get that extra money.
The real world and L2 both have a free market economy(for the most part). The only difference is that the inflation rate in L2 is ALOT higher than in the real world. The influx of new money is just that much faster in L2 causing the prices to become as high as they are (ebuying as well as just hunting and not puttin money into "sinks" causes this). The same inflation happens in the real world, just at a slower rate. You havent noticed that a $0.75 pack of gum used to cost $0.45 about 7 years ago?
Very true Geclar, the supply of money impacts inflation in rl and l2. However, on my server I have seen less inflation in the last year or so than we saw in the first couple of years of L2. I think this may be because, back then, the large group of starting players tended to hit C grade within a few months of each other, then B grade, then A grade...and each new grade created a demand for items in that grade range which bid up the prices.
I think Jute made a great point, too. If we substitute the word 'cheater' for 'ebayer' (ebaying is just one form of cheating) then we see plenty of cheaters in the 'real world' as well, and probably the same people who cheat in L2 cheat in rl since the same person is making the decisions in both arenas of life. Sometimes the cheaters get ahead but perhaps not as often as in generally thought, especially by those low on the ladder. Perhaps one of the reasons that I tend to post so strongly in anti-cheating comments on these forums is that my rl job/profession is one where cheating is abhored and where the exposure of cheaters is a goal raised almost to an art form.
The reason their are so many cheaters in L2 is because it seems to be relatively risk free. People are inherently going to try the quickest easiest method to get what they want, not alot of people have the moral character to do things the right way. I, personally, enjoy the journey more than the destination, but thats just me.
If there were little to no consequence for cheating in real life, I GUARANTEE you would see so much counterfit money, people stealing etc. And thereing lies the reason why things in RL seem to be so different, people stand to lose more by misbehaving in RL than they do by cheating in a game.
I have just one quick thought on the economy aspect of this thread;
Would buying in game money be similar to me taking my American dollar and buying goods in Mexico where the same product is much less? The same holds true for the Euro, I just got back from Spain and I lost about 30% of my buying power because the Dollar is weak against the Euro, but is still strong against the peso. Same products, much different value. Think about how this may be similar to how the economy works with the ability to buy in game money. Am I a cheater because I make a lot of money in the US and then retire in Mexico?
Appetizer for thought.
The reason their are so many cheaters in L2 is because it seems to be relatively risk free. People are inherently going to try the quickest easiest method to get what they want, not alot of people have the moral character to do things the right way. I, personally, enjoy the journey more than the destination, but thats just me.
If there were little to no consequence for cheating in real life, I GUARANTEE you would see so much counterfit money, people stealing etc. And thereing lies the reason why things in RL seem to be so different, people stand to lose more by misbehaving in RL than they do by cheating in a game.
This is very true, much of everything in RL is based on a "Risk vs. Reward" system.
If such transactions were illegal, than perhaps you would be a cheater. But they are (I think) entirely legal. If you think that the dollar is going to depreciate compared to the Euro you can buy Euro denominated travellers checks with your dollars, wait for the changes, then switch back from Euro to more dollars (if your transaction costs/fees for the travellers checks are small) and make a nice profit. Perhaps an in-game example would be buying and selling AA for a profit. (Maybe one day we will get that new continent with a different currency and can do ingame currency speculation.)
However, with ebaying, that is specifically forbidden in the EULA. Every time you log into the game you 'AGREE' to the EULA. If you then break the EULA by ebaying I would say you are a cheater, as well as a liar since you 'Agreed' and then did what you agreed not to do.
As an aside, I am NOT accusing Allwine of this in any way, just to be clear.
Going to Mexico and buying stuff is similar(kinda) to finding which city has the lowest taxes and buying Soul Ore or goods there, then reselling for profit in a city where you can be lower than the vendor price, but high enough to make money. (this used to work well buying ore in Dwarve land, then selling in giran, but not anymore). Nothing illegal about it. Now if you were to get someone to magially create you large sums of money then we could compare you to ebaying for things. It just introduces large sums of cash into the market that was otherwise remaining idle.
To the OP's original question, I think that economics in L2 and RL have some similar basic components but that's about it.
As for politics--the game version doesn't have any resemblance in my opinion to RL.
One economic similarity to the 'design' of L2 economy and RL is that economic success as it was planned in the game and as it exists in RL is not particularly easy.
Having excess disposable income in RL takes time and effort--likewise in L2 (if you stay within the Eula and also don't scam others).
I think the impression of the wealthy in L2 and in RL (class distinction) is similar as well--although this probably has more to do with culture than any other single fact. If a person has a drac bow and boss jewels in L2 many, many people say "he cheated"--whether he did or not. Likewise, in RL the guy with the 1,000,000 home and 3 Lexus' and the summer place and country club membership "must have cheated" to get ahead.
Obvious to both L2 and RL--'free market' (or more accurately limited govt interference markets) do not guarantee that everyone ends up at the same finish line....they (attempt to)guarantee that 'some' laws and rules and relationships are essentially equal starting places for everyone.
This is why it's important imo that when playing L2 you measure your progress with a yardstick of your own performance--and not against what others have and do. I remember clearly having about 400k at lvl 25--and also when I made the first million adena, 10 million adena, and 50 million adena. Although many, many players have much more than me, against my own experience I'm able to be pleased with my progress :).
I was just posing a question out of curiosity. I definately do not condone cheating in game or in RL.
To Drakkos,
It is funny that you mention how in RL people will point at a financially successful person and say they cheated. That is so true.
Because of what I do in RL, I have been encouraged to write a book about the subject of wealth and can it be obtained without hurting or cheating someone in some form or another.
Now, on to the perception of cheating. I used to play basketball and when I knew I could get away with a foul (obliviously against the rules of the game) I would try. Sometime I get caught and sometimes I don't. Would this relate to being a bad person that is cheating and trying to get ahead of others because of their loss? Just another curious question for debate :-)
if you make a model economy with an infinitly growing money supply (only "controls" are after the fact sinks) and a black market exchange rate (seen as currency controls in the real world) then your getting close. but it gets even harder to model with the idea that the manufactured goods have a near unlimited use and grow to a near perfect competition like price base (my +3 maj helm is just as good as your +3 maj helm).
in short? sure you could make a realistic economic model based on this game (pick a server) but it does little good and wouldnt provide any sort of accurate economic modeling (a gamer could see what upcoming changes are likely more than a traditional forecaster could)
as to the politics, well.... it was already said l2 politics is a bad high school with the added benefit of being able to hide and never have to face anything done.
Market is very realistic, politics however, are on the same level as high school politics... it is pretty childish.
"My clan will pawn your clan!!"... "What did you say?!!! this means WAR, die noobs!!"
Sorry, not much depth to that.
Childish politics? Sound like US politics. "Hey you! You bomb our country, we bomb yours" or "Hey! You have what we want, we bomb your country" L2 translation: "Hey you! You killed our clanmembers, we kill yours, WAR!!!" and "Hey! You got a Baium Ring and you are red, we hunt you down to get it!"
Market is very realistic, politics however, are on the same level as high school politics... it is pretty childish.
"My clan will pawn your clan!!"... "What did you say?!!! this means WAR, die noobs!!"
Sorry, not much depth to that.
Childish politics? Sound like US politics. "Hey you! You bomb our country, we bomb yours" or "Hey! You have what we want, we bomb your country" L2 translation: "Hey you! You killed our clanmembers, we kill yours, WAR!!!" and "Hey! You got a Baium Ring and you are red, we hunt you down to get it!"
This is rather uncalled for. Sure it's an opinion. And this is a discussion thread but throwing stones at the US isn't necessary.
This is also the country that materially helped to rebuild Japan and Germany after stopping both from their courses of horror.
This is also the country that attempted to stop communism in Viet Nam, and the brutal regime of Hussein in Iraq--where 3/4 of 50 million people, including women for the first time, actually got to have a vote.
Certainly not perfect (nor is any nation) but not deserving of silly and baseless generalized criticisms either.
If such transactions were illegal, than perhaps you would be a cheater. But they are (I think) entirely legal. If you think that the dollar is going to depreciate compared to the Euro you can buy Euro denominated travellers checks with your dollars, wait for the changes, then switch back from Euro to more dollars (if your transaction costs/fees for the travellers checks are small) and make a nice profit. Perhaps an in-game example would be buying and selling AA for a profit. (Maybe one day we will get that new continent with a different currency and can do ingame currency speculation.)
However, with ebaying, that is specifically forbidden in the EULA. Every time you log into the game you 'AGREE' to the EULA. If you then break the EULA by ebaying I would say you are a cheater, as well as a liar since you 'Agreed' and then did what you agreed not to do.
As an aside, I am NOT accusing Allwine of this in any way, just to be clear.
Already happening with Ancient Adenas. No need for a new continent and a new currency.
I have often thought that L2 was, on a rudimentary level, a political and socio-economic simulator. The key, of course, is the question: What will happen when the community has to police itself, save for the most heinous crimes?
It is a lesson in anarchy, and the powers that form in the absence of strong rule. Both the economy and political scene is affected, though the former less than the latter.
While RMT adds a degree of inflation, it comes from the principal that there is an infinite amount of adena. One way or another, that adena stands to make its way into circulation. Once it exists, there are few options to remove it (i.e. money sinks). All we do, really, is pass it around.
So, not counting RMT, what happens? The rich become richer, the poor remain poor (barring a good drop, or a benefactor). Until someone finds a good method of making money, there is little they can do to change their situation. Meanwhile, those who have the money have the methods to invest and make even more.
Sounds a lot like a magnified version of what already happens in a 'free' market.
Oh, and Rioni? This is a great topic. I made sure to highlight it over at L2 Vault (http://l2vault.ign.com), so hopefully we'll see more feedback coming in soon.
Of course they are not Exactly the same, but i would say they are somewhat similar.
Just think of it this way. If you get banned, its almost as if someone killed you.
Drugs Dealers, Counterfeiters can be your farmers and ebayers.
Botters can be the people who steal money from banks and take very large and illegal shortcuts in life. Similar to real life not everyone can be stopped.
Monopoly can happen if you buy out all the shops and resell for a higher price. And I believe the buy low and sell high still applies as well.
and I do know there are buffers out there who sells buffs for money as well. Isn't grinding away at mobs for hours on end a source of money? Similar to a real job isn't it? Don't you and your employees raid your bosses office to try to attain the checkbook of light? I was kidding about the check book of light btw.
Don't we try to save money as much as we can? Don't we walk everywhere instead of using the gatekeepers? Almost similar to driving instead of using the airport to save money.
Isn't the most rich and powerful live in big castles and have clan halls? Similar to big mansions and houses?
I personally think L2 is just a small chunk of what real life is.
I hope you can see what im trying to say here, I am not saying that RL and L2 is identical, but however it does have some economical elements same with political that is similar to real life.
and wars don't even have to be country wise in fact it doesn't have to be of this time period.
Rival gangs, rival companies, Don't they fight each other for power and position and wealth? Mafia, Gansters etc etc.
I also wanted to mention each race in L2 worships a different god similar in real life, but thats irrelevant.
@ jkoster thanks! This topic has been in my head for awhile now, ever since i saw an article if video games can actually help you. Then i start to think that some of them can! FPS games for reaction and accuracy, RTS for planning an operation, MMO for patience, politics and money. Of course just on a very small scale, nothing major.
The whole high school politics thing, generally it still does happen,
In the office environment there are a lot of high school politics.
I kinda like the comparison of rule-breaking in lin2 to other kinds of rule-breaking. I think mostly because I've never worked out for myself exactly where I think it stands.
There's things against the rules that are:
(0) an infraction
(1) rude
(2) wrong
(3) shameful
(4) immoral
(5) repulsive
In games, there's usually some continuum. A hard check in basketball may be rude, but not wrong. A 3-second violation (like when did you last see that called?) is prob'ly just an infraction. But then there's the Ron Artests whose behavior is repulsive enough to turn fans away from the sport.
In lin2, where does botting, ebaying, account-sharing, etc. fit in?
There's also other behavior, such as illustrated in another thread, where people do something that damages the trust of the community, with unwanted language (Erica had a "***********" for a long time despite at least one of us petitioning it).
Is botting immoral, like a dangerous hit in sports that puts someone's health at risk? Or is it just a 10 yd penalty, automatic first down?
How about if I borrow your buffer, just for OOP use?
Does it make a difference if you're a profarmer botting for $$ or a top player botting for exp?
Ebaying a little? Ebaying a lot?
Buying an account? (just what proportion of your server's heroes are on their first player still?)
Soliciting a minor in-game for cyber sex?
All are against the rules -- I'm just not sure where they fall on the moral continuum.
A good point, Wyzeguy, but what you have left out is this:
What do you do when those who would exist in this world lose their moral compass? They possess it in real life because of the laws set upon them. Without these laws, without someone else's moral compass pointing their way, they become murderers and thieves, bent on one purpose:
Destroying the existence of others, if only for a moment.
When you can kill and not suffer repercussions, when you can steal if you are powerful enough.
We exist digitally in a realm of 'might makes right' and as such we see evidence of it every day. The A-grade necro that comes to Windmill Hill to destroy anyone he sees because the he thirsts for the kill, or the scammer that succeeds at 'take down your weapon' day in and day out because for him, it is the Game that he plays, not the realm in which we exist.
I propose, then, that Lineage 2 goes beyond a socio-economic study and directly into a visual representation of human nature. What do you do, when the restraints come off that keep you a 'productive' citizen? When you answer only to yourself?
A good point, Wyzeguy, but what you have left out is this:
What do you do when those who would exist in this world lose their moral compass? They possess it in real life because of the laws set upon them. Without these laws, without someone else's moral compass pointing their way, they become murderers and thieves, bent on one purpose:
Destroying the existence of others, if only for a moment.
When you can kill and not suffer repercussions, when you can steal if you are powerful enough.
However it isn't the laws that keep people honest, it's the fear of consequences or some internal sense of justice. Mostly, what keeps a society within the rules it has set up for itself is peer pressure. You follow the rules because if you don't you will be thrown out of the group.
A good point, Wyzeguy, but what you have left out is this:
What do you do when those who would exist in this world lose their moral compass? They possess it in real life because of the laws set upon them. Without these laws, without someone else's moral compass pointing their way, they become murderers and thieves, bent on one purpose:
Destroying the existence of others, if only for a moment.
When you can kill and not suffer repercussions, when you can steal if you are powerful enough.
However it isn't the laws that keep people honest, it's the fear of consequences or some internal sense of justice. Mostly, what keeps a society within the rules it has set up for itself is peer pressure. You follow the rules because if you don't you will be thrown out of the group.
Well, partly true. "Everyone" doesn't follow all rules because of fear (though I'll grant it is the biggest motivator of human behavior).
In society there are certainly "sticks" used to beat you if you deviate--but there are also "carrots" used to reward you if you comply (with norms, etc.).
Some people in society will conform and behave not out of fear but out of expectations of reward--which indeed exist.
"If we all drive the speed limit it's a) safer, b) more fuel efficient...whatever". Some will obey for positive reasons.
If you pay your bills early you get rewards--or your mortgage you save tons of money. Those 'carrots' do incent some people...as do our institutions.
Yup! Good old institutions. Family, marriage, education, law, etc.--these are SOCIAL constructs with implied norms. Those who voluntarily follow the norms that are expected have the continued reward of participation in the institution.
This can be a powerful motivator (not sure if you would call that a carrot or argue it is a 'stick' since fear of banishment/exlusion is present).
Generally I agree that fear of consequence motivates--but there are other motivating factors.
I do agree with jkoster that L2 offers a view of people playing in a world of little consequence ("Lord of the Flies" anyone?).
You are correct I neglected to mention the rewards aspect. However, I would argue that most of those rewards are still 'social' based. The only things that are not are just plain basic human necessities.
But there have always been individuals who are basically altruistic, they get a reward from helping others. I see this in the game as well...
No, it's not a hard and fast allegory for 'real life' but I think it's pretty close.
thats exactly what this game has become over the years, D. EXACTLY.
except on our server its pigs dancing around impaled humans.
but theres a catch i dont know if youve considered - this game is itself a virtual world. why inject real values in a fake society?
its not that L2 mimics RL for economics or politics - its that the virtual world HAD no structure for this, so the players used what real knowledge available to design their own rudimentary methods of marketing and political hierarchy.
what we have now still has some semblance of its early years - there still is spoil-for-profit, still is crush for SS although less now because A and S shots can be crafted sans-crush, but there have been added many forms of marketing and many systems of politics since the days before heroes.
There are theories (Moral Reasoning Theory, developed by professors Kohlberg and Rest) which imply that different people make decisions which have moral implications in different ways. Some people are constrained only by fear of being caught and punished. Some people look to their friends, family and peer groups to define what is right and wrong. Others look to what they think the norms of society are for their guide. Some others (few) will have a personal moral code which they follow even if it doesn't maximize their wealth and even if it is contrary to what most others think is OK to do.
I have vastly oversimplified the theory, but the idea is that different people have different reference points for right and wrong, which seems to be consistent with both this debate and how people play the game.
its not that L2 mimics RL for economics or politics - its that the virtual world HAD no structure for this, so the players used what real knowledge available to design their own rudimentary methods of marketing and political hierarchy.
its not that L2 mimics RL for economics or politics - its that the virtual world HAD no structure for this, so the players used what real knowledge available to design their own rudimentary methods of marketing and political hierarchy.
its not that L2 mimics RL for economics or politics - its that the virtual world HAD no structure for this, so the players used what real knowledge available to design their own rudimentary methods of marketing and political hierarchy.
myeah... and mr holiness should also remember, the game actually consists of other people than l2blah people *shocker*.
And those people are actually more to the numbers than the l2blah... They just dont take as much unnecessary "childrens play" space.
And therefor doesnt get as much attention.
They are the real people in this game, except the undead ones.. ^^
myeah... and mr holiness should also remember, the game actually consists of other people than l2blah people *shocker*.
And those people are actually more to the numbers than the l2blah... They just dont take as much unnecessary "childrens play" space.
And therefor doesnt get as much attention.
They are the real people in this game, except the undead ones.. ^^
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Which is true, but the political factors are the ones posting in l2blah usually. You are not much of a politician if you are silent by the side-lines. On my server herochat is filled with flaming and two sides constantly grief eachother. Those two side have close to all hero's, castles and those two sides are the ones posting on l2blah. Sure, people not on those two sides play L2 too, but they are not part of the politics/endgame much. Unless you disagree hero's, olympiad, castles and wars are the defining events in L2. Sadly in every MMO powergamers start to take over after 6-12 months or so.
(not trying to say what happens there is good or fun, just stating some perceived facts here)