I was gonna post this in my "What this game needs to be a real MMO-RPG-" thread, but realized it's not really about the same thing...
So, following Sigge's answer :
The game needs new players more then anything. But why on earth would they want to come play Lineage II?
I kinda agree with you (sadly), and maybe something missing in L2 (besides the RP part which is the object of the other thread) is the ability to have real fun at "low" levels...
When i took a look at the new CT1 features, i realized that, once again, all the cool and fun stuff is only available to high-level characters, even stuff that doesnt really seem to have a big PvP impact like Great Wolves...
I would perfectly understand that the "cool PvP" stuff would be available only to high-levels, after all L2 is still marketed as "the" PvP MMO, but why cant we get some fun stuff at low levels ? Stuff that doesnt really have any ingame impact but that's only pure fun ?
Even if you only want to mount a Strider from time to time, you have to get a Hatchling and spend endless boring hours levelling him up ! And it seems they did almost the same thing with the Great Wolves !
And if you wanna get those funny flying creatures next to you, you have to be the Clan leader of a Fortress-owning Clan or something...
I understand that L2 is about achievement, and it should stay that way, but why on earth make all of the cool stuff only available to high-levels ?
How about some love for the low-levels ? :p
Cos if you wanna drag new players in, you have to be able to tell them "hey give this game a try and see how fun it is", and not "hey give this game a try for at least two years and see how fun it becomes in the end", less and less ppl are ready to do that :eek:
is Anarchy Online fun at low levels? LoTRO? Warhammer? Tabularasa? Checkers?
no.
if any game was fun at low levels you wouldnt see "powerleveling" services as prominent. i see more wow plvl ads than l2plvl ads.
even wow you need to invest time and energy and knowledge to make a fun character. but the fun doesnt last. it never does. not even in L2.
hence, subclassing.
so please grazzt, zaar or whatever you call yourself nowadays, MAKE some fun at low levels. hell ive been here 3+years never hit 60 yet and i have a LOT of low level fun. i make it all myself.
Yes it certainly seems so, i'll have to see that for myself in a couple of months...
i see more wow plvl ads than l2plvl ads.
Oh sure, and you didnt think for one second that it may have something to do with the fact that there must be 100x more ppl who play WoW than L2 ?
I really hope you're not a scientist or anything, with this kind of thinking :)
even wow you need to invest time and energy and knowledge to make a fun character.
Sure, but the fun starts much earlier, and hence attracts more ppl, that's all i'm saying.
so please grazzt, zaar or whatever you call yourself nowadays, MAKE some fun at low levels.
No need to get personal or anything... or have i hit a touchy spot without knowing it ?
hell ive been here 3+years never hit 60 yet and i have a LOT of low level fun. i make it all myself.
And i've been here for 2 years, my highest level character is still 53, and yes of course i'm having fun, otherwise i wouldnt be here, i would be playing WoW.
But this is the General Discussion board so i'm just discussing...
I think NCSoft had the idea the last couple of chronicle releases (before CT1) to REWARD lowbies and move them up faster.
Certainly that has been the effect of pots from mobs, newbie buffs (now expanded), shadow weapons for free, clan oath armor, academy/clan changes, etc.
In essence, NCSoft seemed to be saying "we GET it--everybody hates being a lowbie". 1-40 is a comparative breeze now. It used to be a LOT harder.
A couple of the Kamael changes seem to be reflective of what you are advocating, Grazzt. Particularly the instanced dungeon quest for players not past the first class change. I actually did that with 4 other players last week and it was a BLAST.
To the degree that you are talking about these kinds of things, I agree with you.
I don't see any reason there couldn't be similar (instanced dungeon) quests in other starter areas (certainly they have the space) and perhaps a couple in the Gludin area for all races to work together.
The only other 'assist' that has occurred to me over the past couple of years that would be helpful to those below S-grade would be to at least expand mammon exchange to low range B-grade weapons of all kinds, and to have a way for a full clan to acquire armors (like clan oath) at least in C-grade for those who just got out of the academy. I go back and forth on my opinion of whether these should really occur.
Of course giving free stuff works for some but those players won't stay in any appreciable numbers. L2 requires a lot of time and the exp curve requirements are STEEP after S-grade. This virtually guarantees that the sort of person who will appreciate L2 the most is one with the inner desire to put up with it.
I'm generally against making 1-52 TOO easy and meaningless and quick and certainly am against significant increases to end game levels.
Just focusing on new players--give them a pet alligator and a floppy hat and put it on the box and you'll get a few thousand who join. 99% of those will never reach A-grade anyway. Somewhere about lvl 46 (currently) they'll see exp slow down and go to the next game that's faster anyway.
All that being said, it seems to me that NCSoft 'may' be slowly heading in the direction you advocate. I don't have a problem with lowbie additions.
I've long said they should toss some more lower raid bosses with great lowbie drops into the starter areas. If the Kamael instanced dungeon is an example of possible lowbie additions I think NCSoft did a good job with that. Lastly, it's hard to argue they haven't been paying attention to lowbies with all the recent changes (whether you like them or hate them). They've virtually removed higher level griefing--they've made leveling cheaper (you now get thousands of free shots) and made starter content flexible (you can try out various weapons/armor for instance) and provided 'buffs in the field' that fall constantly as well as newbie buffs that are pretty good!
A pretty casual player should go from 1-40 in about 3 weeks or so I would think (perhaps a month). If a player can't find anything new to learn or experience after 2nd class change as a newbie (new areas, raids, new mobs, working toward finding your needed gear/drops/recipes, assist clan leveling, sponsor an academy person, etc) then they aren't going to stay in L2 anyway.
Many of starters I believe feel mainly scared of the grind past 40+. Even in 6x when I have been playing since NACB that I feel like I won't be able to catch up to anyone unless with you know what which of course I won't go to. They are even increasing level cap to 85, we aren't Korea over here and we don't have kind of gaming life (most of us have lives). Plus you cannot PvP solo unless you are 78+, I have been going to castle sieges since B-grade thankfully because I just tag along in a group and do whatever damage I can but when it comes to fighting on my own, I am screwed.
Grazzt is kindof right though, I've been playing this game since Open Beta and except making it easier and faster to get out of the noob range it still is attracting appealing or not worth trying anymore why?
Well There is no one in the low areas... Nothing cool happens till B grade which is a long grind so yeah Noob Time BORING
Actually, after your 1st char in wow(where your just learning about the game your very 1st time), low levels are excruciatingly boring. same for Lotro, hell especially for LOTRO which is nearly the same thing as wow except you look much worse. All mmo's are like that.
Actualy yes, it was fun. Cause you had some field and base to attack in pvp for low level only. So you had to roll a low level toon with your guild to attack thoses base/field/town and it was preaty funny !
Big clan were rerolling and recruiting some lowbie to get them in the fun.
I think NCSoft had the idea the last couple of chronicle releases (before CT1) to REWARD lowbies and move them up faster.
Certainly that has been the effect of pots from mobs, newbie buffs (now expanded), shadow weapons for free, clan oath armor, academy/clan changes, etc.
Very true.
When i first started the game 2 years ago, it took me almost 2 months to get to lv20 !
I knew absolutely nothing about the game (i didnt even know that we could automate the use of SoulShots, i cliked on them with every shot :eek:), i knew noone ingame, there wasnt any newbie buffs or herbs or shadow weapon or anything...
And i bowed about 20 times to someone who gave me 50.000 adena in the DE starter village (it's been 2 years and i still remember :) )
And now, i just rolled a Kamael and it took me only a couple of days to get to 20 !
A couple of the Kamael changes seem to be reflective of what you are advocating, Grazzt. Particularly the instanced dungeon quest for players not past the first class change. I actually did that with 4 other players last week and it was a BLAST.
Yeah i definitively have to try these !
Of course giving free stuff works for some but those players won't stay in any appreciable numbers. L2 requires a lot of time and the exp curve requirements are STEEP after S-grade. This virtually guarantees that the sort of person who will appreciate L2 the most is one with the inner desire to put up with it.
Sure, the end game should really stay hard to reach, that's actually one of things that make a lot of ppl come back to this game when they sometimes leave (i'm one of those ppl).
Just focusing on new players--give them a pet alligator and a floppy hat and put it on the box and you'll get a few thousand who join.
Exactly.
99% of those will never reach A-grade anyway.
Exactly :p
Lastly, it's hard to argue they haven't been paying attention to lowbies with all the recent changes (whether you like them or hate them).
Oh i agree with you, they're really going in the right (imo) direction, but i'd just like them to go a bit faster ;)
Like KnightOfDarkness said, sure they made levelling easier and faster, but they could also make some more cool stuff to do when you're still low-level.
Now NCSoft, give us that alligator pet and floppy hat :cool:
hell ive been here 3+years never hit 60 yet and i have a LOT of low level fun. i make it all myself.
P1: - Look at the newbies! They have fun! Buaaargl that's dirty...
P2: - I heard newbies hit their own pets to try to gain xp.
P3: - No no, they are just too poor to wear the correct grade armor and weapon, and they just can't go to IT or Pagans! Hu hu hu!
P1: - But they don't have the right to have fun! They're newbies!
P3: - Come, my highbie friends, let's go to Dino Island. There's nothing good there but we'll go just because we can!
P1, P2, P3: - Erk erk erk erk!
Actualy yes, it was fun. Cause you had some field and base to attack in pvp for low level only. So you had to roll a low level toon with your guild to attack thoses base/field/town and it was preaty funny !
Big clan were rerolling and recruiting some lowbie to get them in the fun.
Actually I thought this is what fortresses were going to be... For lower level players... But nooooo...
Actually I thought this is what fortresses were going to be... For lower level players... But nooooo...
What people seem to fail to grasp is that anything that L2 does that is intended for "low level" players will be farmed by low level alts with maxed gear. True low level players will *always* be screwed.
No gimpy clans trying to war you, plenty of NPC buffs, Blessing of Protection to assist with the 12yr-olds, Raid Bosses that you can actually kill and get drops.....
I think the thing that is missing is any sort of progressive challenge.
In general, mmorpgs capitalize on the social aspects of the game to be fun. I've known many people in a wide range of mmogs that play primarily to socialize.
Lin2 (WoW, EQ, Co_, etc.) are like a chat-room, but with a purpose. It's kinda like instead of going to a singles-bar/meat-market you join a co-ed hiking/book/etc club.
But in lin2 there's not enough push from the game to improve your play, form groups, and stuff like that. In WoW there's Wailing Caverns and Scarlet Monastery that will require you to get a decent party (healer + tank + others). And if you want the best gear for your level, you HAVE to go there.
City of Heroes, I s'pose you could grind your way up, but the game is about missions which require teamwork. The criticism of EQ was that you could ONLY play with a party that had a tank, healer, and slower (and that it was a long boring grindfest).
Lin2 gameplay for PvE is hugely long, literally thousands of hours to get up high enough in level to play pvp. Whether it's s'posed to be the focus of the game or not, it IS something you'll spend most of your time on.
Lin2 gameplay for PvE is unidimensional. I kept hoping it'd improve, become more dynamic. But fact is, Wall of Argyos is the same **** thing as Orc Barracks.
Forgotten Plains is exactly the same as Apostate which is exactly the same as Heretics. Hit a mob, run to the next one -- like this game was MADE for bots.
The point about pets and stuff like that, you can get a wolf at lvl 15. I know that's not a strider, but I'd be ****ed if it doesn't play basically the same way. Fun at low levels would be nice, but there's a lack of imaginative design in the game at all levels.
Lin2 gameplay for PvE is unidimensional. I kept hoping it'd improve, become more dynamic. But fact is, Wall of Argyos is the same **** thing as Orc Barracks.
Forgotten Plains is exactly the same as Apostate which is exactly the same as Heretics. Hit a mob, run to the next one -- like this game was MADE for bots.
There are some difference between places. Fortress of Resistance has mobs fleeing to call other mobs, Forgotten Plains has mobs changing form, Frozen Labyrinth they multiply, Forest of the Dead there are different mobs at night, Pagans, MoS and IT have all different rules...
Sure a lot of place are about the same and ideal for botting, and now bots even go to areas where mobs stun.
Now Lineage 2, as a lot of popular MMORPG, sees its PvE mainly centered on monster bashing in loop and sometimes a Raid Boss at the end. The MMORPG with a different PvE are a totally different concept from the beginning. And I'm pretty sure even Age of Conan PvE will be about massive monster bashing. And fedex quests.
If you want to socialize, make a bishop. Personally I solo on a limited scale on other toons, and even there I prefer a small party with friends' alts than staying alone. Because yeah solo makes things very stupid in L2. The only way to solo for me is to do AOE with my wizard or poles with my melees. Otherwise I quickly realize I'm loosing IQ points.
That said, newbie buffs and herbs are killing newbie support classes even more, and that's not helping for socialization at low levels. But if you want to socialize at low level, there's one great thing to do : Raid Bosses. At low levels, one party is enough, and it's funnier than the RB ~70 or more which require more than often several clans to organize.
The point about pets and stuff like that, you can get a wolf at lvl 15.
If you happen to have a spare 1/2 mil laying around to get the quest started that is. I dont know any lowbie (new players) that has that kind of money to get better gear, much less blow it on a pet.
We do need more stuff for those 1-40 ppl. I say Bring back all those newbie bosses we used to have!!! Put in some new lowbie areas to explore. This shouldn't be all about the end game. It takes too darn long to get there for most of us. Actually, thinking about it, its not about the end game or NCSoft wouldn't make it so hard to get there. They just arent rewarding the inbetween game.
kind dont understand those who say that l2 isnt interesting in low lelvels.. =/
create character, 2-3 hours ure lvl 20, get top D and go RB.. ;) in the first day.. join academy, make new friends, explore new things, visit forum etc
The point about pets and stuff like that, you can get a wolf at lvl 15.
If you happen to have a spare 1/2 mil laying around to get the quest started that is. I dont know any lowbie (new players) that has that kind of money to get better gear, much less blow it on a pet.
You're thinking of the baby pets, not of the wolf. The wolf quest doesn't require any monetary investment if you don't mind a bit of running (once Gludin -> your home lands -> back to Gludin and once Gludin -> Gludio -> Dion -> Giran and back), and probably less than 5k porting costs if you do it with a Dark Elf during the "cheap porting" time, and know the "shortcuts".
There is a common mis-conseption in this thread - the game is serious business, not for fun. Get used to that and you will start to get really sucked into L2. :D
It is fun to kill low lvl RB. This is made with badly organized and "kiddish" rb parties but nevertheless they are succeessful every 2 from 3 tries.
The problem is when someone becomes overconfident and try to kill lvl 35 RB with the same badly oprganized and "kiddish" party which killed lvl 23 RB.
But yes - the game needs more twisted quests with better rewards. Not just kill 1500 mobs to get 500 quest items for 1 EAD... Something which requires cooperation and gives party rewards. Not full parties needed to kill a RB (there is a such newbie quest), but parties from 3 different classes. And the reward must be for the whole party.
Low levels are great I think..
You can get pickup raids , do rifts , festivals , aoe with just healing pots , get free armor from clan , have buffs without the need of a buffer following you.
What else you need? I would say the most boring levels are 60ish - 72ish ..
You play as a beginner. The more you play, the better you get as you learn strategy. Like chess. Many people learn how to play but unless you play regularly against different levels of opposition, your game won't improve. You start at the basics and work up.
The low levels of Lineage 2 are designed like this. The whole idea is to start low, learn how to best use your skills against mob at similar levels to yourself. The more you do, the better you get. Levelling is supposed to be a journey of discovery and learning from level 1 upwards. Take time and enjoy the journey.
Power levelling defeats the whole point of the design of the game. I can't see the point in starting Lineage 2 one week and pushing for A grade withing a few weeks. You get there and then complain that there's no content and that you need better items and better mob. You then encourage other new players to level up quick so you have more people at similar levels for pvp etc and the game becomes top heavy and unbalanced.
I realise that there's a type of player that wants the best of everything in five minutes and the grind isn't for them. But that's not how this game was designed. If it was, we'd all start at 75.
So if we all start at 75, everyone would want loads more content and far higher mobs up to level 150. People would moan about the grind to 150 and so the cycle goes on.
I enjoyed the game at low levels, my highest char is still B grade yet I have countless other lower characters that I love to play. I play the game how its presented to me. Its escapism and relaxation from work and thats all I need.
What castle has instance? there is only 1 on Kamael land, Hellbound is 80+ crystal caverns are 78+ the dark cloud mansion? right....
There is a common mis-conseption in this thread - the game is serious business, not for fun. Get used to that and you will start to get really sucked into L2. :D
idiot if the game wasn't made for fun no-one would play it I swear that was the dumbest remark I ever seen
What castle has instance? there is only 1 on Kamael land, Hellbound is 80+ crystal caverns are 78+ the dark cloud mansion? right....
Every castle and fortress, perhaps read the patch notes once in a while or ask people who have them?
There is a common mis-conseption in this thread - the game is serious business, not for fun. Get used to that and you will start to get really sucked into L2. :D
idiot if the game wasn't made for fun no-one would play it I swear that was the dumbest remark I ever seen
You clearly didnt get it. Old was being sarcastic...
Actually, after your 1st char in wow(where your just learning about the game your very 1st time), low levels are excruciatingly boring. same for Lotro, hell especially for LOTRO which is nearly the same thing as wow except you look much worse. All mmo's are like that.
That's not what the thread is addressing. He isn't talking about rerolls, rather about first time players. And the first time through WOW, the players seem to be having fun. If not, then there's millions and millions of people that are evidentally more masochistic than L2 players.
I saw "What would make it fun" not "We want this fixed!"
I just *love* people that don't read.
I do too! the more people who can't read, the better chances of having a higher paying career
... says the one who didn't notice the sarcasm. ;P
It did seem a little odd that Knight didn't pick up on the sarcasm of my post in the other thread. But hey, I wil give Knight credit: anybody who would quote Erma Bobeck in their signature in thse forums ain't all bad. Even though I am a male, I came to follow her columns for the last few years she was alive, and I also read one of her books. Now, back to the topic of the thread.
I saw "What would make it fun" not "We want this fixed!"
I just *love* people that don't read.
I do too! the more people who can't read, the better chances of having a higher paying career
... says the one who didn't notice the sarcasm. ;P
It did seem a little odd that Knight didn't pick up on the sarcasm of my post in the other thread. But hey, I wil give Knight credit: anybody who would quote Erma Bobeck in their signature in thse forums ain't all bad. Even though I am a male, I came to follow her columns for the last few years she was alive, and I also read one of her books. Now, back to the topic of the thread.
Lol I had a 5 year old throwing toys around at that time which made it hard to concentrate and to remain calm so I probabaly didn't even try to catch the joke and started flaming then turned around and piledrived... well thats another story back to the topic...
its fun at low levels. I like this game as it is. I have no problems that i will cost me years to reach the high levels. I hope they dont change this game like they did with SWG. before L2 that was the game i played for 3 years. I mean it cost me 3 years of play to reach the master ranger toon and play it effective. But the problem is that the game changed totally and i never had the chance to play with that toon for a long time. i hope this never will happen with L2. Take your time for the game even if you cant play 24 hours a day because you also have RL. i learned alot with the SWG NGE crap. But i see alot of peeps tell me that you reach lev 20 in a couple of hours and have Dgrade top mat. Well i think that this is totaaly wrong. i mean it cost me a couple of weeks to reach lv 20 and i cant afford top d stuff at that level. sure i,m not play this game constant.
this game is more fun at low levels than any other game i've played. it's probably the reason why i make so many alts lol!
nothing beats going into a cata, and then shaking up the hornet's nest by trying to steal someone else's room. takes me back to the good ol' days of cruma in C1.
even more fun when you randomly pk some one, and they bring their "main" that is in like B grade ( lol ) and kills your lowbie, and so you bring you own main and beat the snot out of them, and then you war their clan... oh fun times.
i miss the old war system though, where you didn't have to be declared back. those times were fun, and a much better system than now.