I would very much like this thread to stay constructive and polite so it wont be locked, Alyra showed us on numerous occasions that she could be open-minded about General Discussions so i hope it will also be the case here :p
The recent situation with the Community about those Server Transfer has make me wonder : "are we, NCNA's clients, in a position to demand stuff from them ?"
To me, the answer is obvious if you've read some of my recent posts ;), but i'd like to hear what others have to say about that.
If you look at what happened with Auto Assault, Archlords, RF Online, Ryzom, and, most of all of course, Star Wars Galaxies, it's pretty safe to say that players do have a say about what they want or not in a MMO, and if they're not pleased, then they let their wallet do the talking and the game goes bye-bye...
Like i said in a previous post, like it or not but the people working at MMO companies go to work everyday thanx to us, the paying customers...
So, why shouldnt we be able to demand stuff from them ?
I'll chime in on this to say that I believe the word "demand" itself conjures up negative connotations, and may mean different things to different people.
There's a world of difference between saying, "I want this now! Give it to me! I demand it!" and "I'd really like to see this happen. Here's why I'd like it, and how I'd suggest doing it."
I absolutely believe our players have the right to share their opinions and desires, and we welcome such. :)
I can make an example for you , which at least in Greece is 100% accurate.
A policeman gives you a ticket for illegal parking lets say at 8am. You have to go to the proper building to pay for it.You decide to go the same day to get rid of it. The cashier there has 100 people in front of him. He collects 1 ticket then talks on his phone. Then after another one he goes to get a coffee. This is going till 2 pm where finally is your turn and you pay.
Of course you pay taxes , so this cashier is hired and paid from the goverment. But can you demand from him to work faster? I say yes. Is he obliged to do so? I say no.
If designers/game companies completely listen to the playerbase then they could make some very bad mistakes. After just about 4 years of playing online games I have come to the conclusion that "gamers" can be highly irrational and emotional.
They don't always see the bigger picture. Game designers need to be professional and design games/services that are complete in and of themselves so that players can then determine of it is right for them.
To always listen to the masses results in Britney Spears, Two and a Half Men, and People Magazine.
Not to say that there isn't a place for that but catering to lowest common denominator gets you the "lowest common denominator".
Yet, game companies do need to maintain a finger on the pulse of the player base. Players can and do vote with their wallet.
Game Companies need to be professional, need to think a bit about it's customers but also need to stay true to some higher ideas and values. It's hard, I'll give you that.
As far as NC goes...
NC needs to have more openness with the player base. I've seen other game companies have a greater presence on their boards (Turbine comes to mind) and there is more of a sense that, regardless of whether they adopt the players ideas, that they are at least listening.
Quite frankly, even though I know many players see blame with NC Austin, I really feel that it is NC Korea that is to blame for a lot. Because, after all, NC Austin is not free to do whatever it wants. It has to maintain things for NC Korea.
My office is part of a larger company. Even though we try to do things that we feel are better than what the Main company wants, in truth, they call the shots and we follow.
Perhaps the best way to put it is that game companies need to be more sensitive to what a "modern" game company needs to be. Especially in light of recently published and failed games.
They need to be at the Vanguard (no pun intended, I assure you) of what customer service is suppose to be as opposed to just going through the motions or adopting a lackadaisical attitude. They need to look at what the playerbase needs and then define themselves in a way that will actually fill that need. Notice, I didn't say "want".
However, game players do like to whinge a lot. And given that everyone wants something different, it's almost impossible to take everything at face value.
I absolutely believe our players have the right to share their opinions and desires, and we welcome such. :)
Ok, so maybe the word "demand" is a bit too strong, but i used it to show that if the "opinions and desires" of the players do not make it to the game sooner or later, then they'll stop playing sooner or later, and the game will die sooner or later...
I agree with you that we cant say "i want this now ! give it to me now !" (because we have to be polite and say please in the first place :p), but, i really believe that the ultimate boss of every company (including my small one) are its own clients.
Following that logic, Grazzt, we are a very, very small portion of the "boss" portion.
Sovrath said it perfectly.
My office is part of a larger company. Even though we try to do things that we feel are better than what the Main company wants, in truth, they call the shots and we follow.
To always listen to the masses results in Britney Spears, Two and a Half Men, and People Magazine.
What ?
Are you kidding me ?
Two And A Half Men is the best show there is !!!
:cool:
However, game players do like to whinge a lot. And given that everyone wants something different, it's almost impossible to take everything at face value.
Following that logic, Grazzt, we are a very, very small portion of the "boss" portion.
/agreed with both of you, but then sometimes there are general trends that you can see emerging (yes, Server Transfers :p), and to ignore those trends, where for once most of the playerbase agrees on something, is very dangerous i think.
That's the very mistake SOE made with SWG and i dont think any MMO company want to repeat that same mistake ever again...
Two observations. No company on the planet has to do everything every customer wants--and not a single company is able to accomplish that service level.
Apple computer doesn't, Harley Davidson doesn't, and so on.
Every producer of a 'something' tries to prepare a marketable (desired) product. It either is or is not successful in producing revenue.
Ultimately the company producing the something has absolute control and authority over their 'something'.
Good companies listen to customers and focus on meeting VALID requirements of the paying population that have a chance at increasing profit.
I would use other examples of what listening to customers has done as notable failures:
McDonalds, the world's most succesful and prolific burger maker listened to a few nut jobs, did some crap market research, misinterpreted data---and made the McLean (haha)--which has never reappeared on their menu after an historic flop.
Coca Cola corporation--intending to go after "hip young people" changed the recipe for Coke!!!! And quickly changed back in one of the stupidest marketing campaign ideas since Creation.
So generally, consumers vote with their wallets--not their mouths. And companies listen to customers and pursue an understanding of valid customer desires in pursuit of profit--sometimes calling it right and sometimes failing miserably.
My second observation is that it is not possible to say what "L2 players want" because there isn't a coherent voice. If there is a coherent, single opinion about 'some' change, it would probably not be recognizable from the juvenile whining on many posts here on this forum.
The posters here represent a fragment of L2 players--albeit a knowledgeable and interested fragment--it still is in no way representative of the body of paying customers. Meaning that NCSoft would have as good a chance of following popular opinion represented on these forums and MISSING with a change, as they would in hitting a home run.
Consumers can't demand--they can only pay a competitor.
The problem with 'doing what L2 players all want' is in determining what they ALL (or the majority) would want.
But such services of asking what the consumer wants and then following up with it has not happened, is not happening, and probably will never happen as every day pass, less and less people care, NC is working on a entirely new "Lineage" This one is going to die down soon enough. If opinions weren't taken to mind in the early stages of the game, they certainly won't be taken in now. Sometimes they may come in and say "We'll look into it" or "Our staff members are working on it" then just walk away and..."I'm going on my lunch break." it's irrelevant, but irreversible and nothing we do will tend to this problem, that's just the way things work. Always has...Always will be.
if the "opinions and desires" of the players do not make it to the game sooner or later, then they'll stop playing sooner or later, and the game will die sooner or later...
I for one, completely disagree with this statement. Just because a player has an as you put it, opinions and desires, that does not mean that ncsoft has to do squat. If they listened to every whine and cry to change this, and change that, we'd have like 50 different races by now, and people starting subclassing by the end of their first month playing.
It's important to voice our opinions. Of course it is, if the players did not have an opinion on anything, this would be like, the worst game ever, for the soul fact that ncsoft would not know how to cater to us. And while every now and then, a decision is made that I don't exactly like, or enjoy, I shrug my shoulders, maybe send them my opinion if It's drastic, and then I move on. Do you want to know why? Because I would have quit ages ago if this game was perfect.
If every single class, every single quest, if everything was perfectly balanced, do you have any idea how boring that would be? I rather like the flaws of Lineage II. It gives us something to whine about to each other, to groan over, and eventually, to laugh over. Like what if they fixed the dwarf quests so you didn't have to find Toma because too many people had complained about it? Personally, I think that'd be a bit sad, I rather liked joking about Toma, giggling as I watched someone do some pretty fantastic swearing while trying to find him. Flaws give a little class you know?
I don't really understand why you even bothered using quotes on opinions and desires. I think it would be extremely rude only for us to demand this and that of ncsoft. They've given us a game, they continue to work on it, and while some of us still continue to yell at them and groan about customer service or whatever, or that ahh, they never listen to your demands, my opinion on your state of mind is so graphic, I believe I would be forum banned. They're doing what they can, at their speed. Wait in patience, omgbbq you have this huge problem that stops you from logging on, OH NOES, you've got to log on RIGHT away, to do x, y and oh! Don't forget Z!
Well lar di dar, they're working on it. Go do something productive with your life please, while you wait for a few days, perhaps weeks, and maybe months. And while you might think the "outside" is an expansion pack, you might find it pretty relaxing from being inside 24/7 playing a video game.
And sorry, if I rambled, I'm slightly under the weather :(
But such services of asking what the consumer wants and then following up with it has not happened, is not happening, and probably will never happen as every day pass, less and less people care, NC is working on a entirely new "Lineage" This one is going to die down soon enough. If opinions weren't taken to mind in the early stages of the game, they certainly won't be taken in now. Sometimes they may come in and say "We'll look into it" or "Our staff members are working on it" then just walk away and..."I'm going on my lunch break." it's irrelevant, but irreversible and nothing we do will tend to this problem, that's just the way things work. Always has...Always will be.
I don't see this as you do. I think a lot of common opinions from players have made it to chronicle upgrade content. Certainly players were behind a lot of the 1-40 improvements we've seen. A lot of class changes have occurred due to player input.
Players talking about 3 people killing a RB was taken to heart (now it takes 300--lol...j/k).
Why did sleep get nerfed? (beside the fact all Devs play an archer?).
Why has there been so much change related to the concept of 'balancing'? (most of which I would argue has not been done right).
Why was end game content expanded at least a little?
Most of those things can be tied back to specific player suggestions.
We're coming up on Server Transfers (we think) and you can change gender now--player suggestions and discussions.
To say "NCSoft doesn't listen to players" imo is not accurate. They don't listen to ALL players all the time--but they've tried to do some of the things that seemed popular.
I know I have the rep as a fanboi--I'm not at all. I've criticised a lot about L2. In fact, in some ways I think they listen TOO much to rants and complaints.
To give you some props though--I'd like to see them personally interview and survey players at all levels with a legitimate survey tool to obtain opinion more often. I don't think it would hurt them to gather legitimate data on player opinion.
This forum is not, imo, player opinion. Hence, NCSoft should conduct formal surveys (or more accurately should HAVE done so).
Perhaps the life-cycle of most MMO's isn't long enough to warrant the investment.
Given the issues and deficits with a lot of the MMO's out there trying to compete--it sure looks like it's standard operating procedure to toss a beta into the market, rework it based on initial feedback, and then rush the product to market counting on content upgrades from time-to-time to keep subscribers paying.
I don't have a problem with that since most every MMO company out there seems to do the same.
Still, it would be nice if they emailed out 20,000 surveys and got formal data points on major opinions from 3-4,000 players to consider in their content change.
If they do that I'm not aware of it.
I tend to agree that with L3 looming on the horizon it's not likely they'll do major surveying of opinion.
Players talking about 3 people killing a RB was taken to heart (now it takes 300--lol...j/k).
Still only takes 1 at low levels.. and not much more at high levels (go go destroyer's!)
Why did sleep get nerfed? (beside the fact all Devs play an archer?).
Cuz it was unbalanced in the korean pvp. Ever watch Korean style pvp video's before? Yeah.
Why has there been so much change related to the concept of 'balancing'? (most of which I would argue has not been done right).
Know why it hasnt been done right? Cuz its being done for the KOREAN audience, not us. (Look at all the buffs to Orcs.. Orcs were a very unpopular class early on in L2's life. SR's/LE's etc were a very popular class, yadda)
Most of those things can be tied back to specific player suggestions.
We're coming up on Server Transfers (we think) and you can change gender now--player suggestions and discussions.
Again, a Service that the KOREAN's have, developed for THEM, not us.
Your being extremely naive if you think our suggestions have any effect on the game over there.
The majority of changes done are based upon KOREAN feedback, not NA feedback.
..........
I could go on for awhile, but whats the point? If you wish to think your suggestions are somehow "improving" the game, then by all means, continue. But I bet you any suggestion that you THINK made it in because you suggested it, was suggested on the Korean boards 30 times over well before you or whoever put it on these boards even thought of it.
Until the say NCNA gets rights to run there own events and content you will never get what you want. SCEA L2 can have a double XP event because they have the right to do it. Lineage 1 US servers can also run there own stuff cause they negotiated for that right.
L2NA no. If they wanted to run a double/triple XP even they can't. If they wanted to up drop rates, they can't. If they wanted to change the way BSOE's work so they don't make wars a laugh, they can't.
Well listening might help with retaining players from Europe and North America. I have just been to the Newbie towns on several servers and they are completely empty. 20 to 40 towns are almost empty. What this means that this game cannot last very long if things don't change.
Ok Mirra, i will blame the weather for your rambling, but this has got to be the most fanboyish and clueless post ever :p
Flaws give a little class you know?
Little flaws can give a little class, i agree with you on that, but big flaws like the ones we sometimes get in this game are really nothing but a pain in the [censored]...
They're doing what they can, at their speed. Wait in patience
You're completely missing the point, but this has been debated over and over again so i'll just point you to all of the other threads about that.
Go do something productive with your life please, while you wait for a few days, perhaps weeks, and maybe months. And while you might think the "outside" is an expansion pack, you might find it pretty relaxing from being inside 24/7 playing a video game.
Well, i'm not sure you really know who you speak to, so please go see my posting history and you'll realize that i'm not really the kind of ppl who play this game 24/7 :D
Now please, like i said in the 1st post, try to stay polite and constructive if you wanna have an interesting and un-locked discussion...
* Any company would in their right mind listen to their costumers.
* Any company that impliments any wish is a doomed one.
* Any player that has a voice is 1 that should be listened too if this has valid ground (suggestions etc)
* When a large group of players complain about an issue that has valid grounds in the product a company needs to look into it. Not doing so could be lose of costumers.
Costumers can't demand anything as long as that is a paying costumer.
Any costumer with shares/stocks of that company have the power to influence policies (Aka the more shares/stock-cetificates the larger the power (s)he can use to influence change).
you can request/ask/plead and maybe someone somewhere will listen. But Ash is right, everythign you suggest here has been talked to exhaustion on the korean servers. L3 is too far away for them to start cutting back on L2 at the moment.
Maybe when they consider beta for it, L2 population may drop.
get on and play tbh. In a perfect game, there would be no tasks and no accomplishments... thats what makes L2 intersting, and what keeps forums alive - debating changes/flaws/improvements etc.
Isn't listening to Korean fans and players still listening and responding?
What are the Koreans? Aliens?
The comment was essentially that NCSoft NEVER listens to players, NEVER implements any change from ANY players, etc.
Whether the ideas come from Korea or NA or Pluto--when devs alter content to assimilate player wants the whole game is being responsive to a degree.
/my point.
Ashane, by your reasoning everything you have ever written here and could ever conceive of writing here might as well be skipped because someone in Korea has already thought and written it.
Funny about your applied logic--it didn't stop you from posting 30 times in support of server mergers.
And no, fyi, I don't read Korean forums. I don't have any interest in doing so. I'm sure they are fine folks and have wonderful and enlightening ideas--I just don't have that kind of time. Between working life, home life, sleep, and the time I can squeeze in to play L2--it's all I can do to read these posts and check a couple NA game sites I like.
The comment was essentially that NCSoft NEVER listens to players, NEVER implements any change from ANY players, etc.
Whether the ideas come from Korea or NA or Pluto--when devs alter content to assimilate player wants the whole game is being responsive to a degree.
Again your being clueless.
We are talking about NCSoft *NA*. Not NCSoft Korea. You know, we being in the North American division?
So no, you dont have a voice in any real changes to the game. Believing you do is just being naive.
Ashane, by your reasoning everything you have ever written here and could ever conceive of writing here might as well be skipped because someone in Korea has already thought and written it.
Do a search of my post history and tell me how many times I've opened up a thread in the suggestions board. That answer would be a big fat *zero*. I hardly even post there, other then to point out flaws or inconsistent answers.
Why? Because its a pointless sub forum. No use other then to give players a false sense of hope.
Funny about your applied logic--it didn't stop you from posting 30 times in support of server mergers.
Because Server Merges are something that NCSoft NA *CAN* do to affect OUR game here. Sometimes I wonder if you dont think man :X
Whats the difference between saying... "I really wish Dwarves got a new skill, such as X" and.. "I really wish the manor times would shift a bit" ?
One is affecting something that NCSoft NA has absolutely no control over. The other is something they can change if they so wish.
To always listen to the masses results in Britney Spears, Two and a Half Men, and People Magazine.
What ?
Are you kidding me ?
Two And A Half Men is the best show there is !!!
:cool:
:mad:
As far as the NA player base being listened to...
I'm not sre that we aren't heard at times. There is definitely evidence that suggestions that come on our suggestion board do make it in game. So, either someone from the Korean playerbase is making the same suggestions or they do take some of our thoughts.
One thought that comes to mind is the Castle that has a Raid Boss and the dungeons in the fortresses.
Before any of that was in the game, someone came to these forums and suggested that castles should have their own dungeons for use by the castle holding clan and alliance. This sparked a whole conversation as to whether or not this would be a good thing, allow players to avoid enemies, etc.
Yet, yadda, yadda, yadda, we do have a castle with a raid boss and we have fortresses with their own dungeons.
Also, (and again who knows where they got this idea) the ability to transfer clan leadership was a huge topic on these forums over a good part of the game's life. Now of course, we can transfer clan leadership.
I think players need to differentiate between ideas that the NA playerbase suggest that fit in with the game design and "we are the NA/Euro playerbase and we are different therefore we want "x".
The latter probably will never be considered. It's the former that can (and at times does) make it into game.
Two and a half men is pretty funny some times plus they have hot womens!
Anywho, L2 is kinda like an exclusive restaurant with a somewhat limited menu. You can suggest that they serve certain dishes but if it doesn't fit in with the head chef's "vision" it won't happen. Yes, they must do what makes a profit but I doubt that the $100 a plate place will server you a plain old hamburger.
The best advice I can offer is to respectfully suggest what you would like and vote with your wallet. When I get bad service at a restaurant, I leave. I don't make a scene. I don't demand to see the manager and throw a tantrum. If asked why, I will tell them. Calmly. I don't make demands.
Two and a half men is pretty funny some times plus they have hot womens!
Anywho, L2 is kinda like an exclusive restaurant with a somewhat limited menu. You can suggest that they serve certain dishes but if it doesn't fit in with the head chef's "vision" it won't happen. Yes, they must do what makes a profit but I doubt that the $100 a plate place will server you a plain old hamburger.
The best advice I can offer is to respectfully suggest what you would like and vote with your wallet. When I get bad service at a restaurant, I leave. I don't make a scene. I don't demand to see the manager and throw a tantrum. If asked why, I will tell them. Calmly. I don't make demands.
On of the best post I have read on this forum. Lucid, sensible and mature.
Two and a half men is pretty funny some times plus they have hot womens!
Anywho, L2 is kinda like an exclusive restaurant with a somewhat limited menu. You can suggest that they serve certain dishes but if it doesn't fit in with the head chef's "vision" it won't happen. Yes, they must do what makes a profit but I doubt that the $100 a plate place will server you a plain old hamburger.
The best advice I can offer is to respectfully suggest what you would like and vote with your wallet. When I get bad service at a restaurant, I leave. I don't make a scene. I don't demand to see the manager and throw a tantrum. If asked why, I will tell them. Calmly. I don't make demands.
On of the best post I have read on this forum. Lucid, sensible and mature.
But let us be clear, you are NOT agreeing with the two and a half men remark. :eek:
I'm not about to go read every post you made, I'm sorry, but I just have this itty bitty feeling that I wouldn't be enjoying myself. And if you want to keep this thread polite, I would not recommend calling people 'fanboys' as you put it. Might 'cause a bit of irritation especially with the players who have ovaries.
But I guess we had a little confusion here, let me attempt to clear up what I was talking about. When I mean flaws give class, I mean, I don't want every class to be as overpowered as, say, archers or something. Every now and then, it's rather silly, if irritating to find out how useless a skill is, or how you can't do this or that. Now, I felt that the use of the word little implied little flaws, and little class. But I can understand your confusion.
I'm sorry if I missed the point there, but I have the impression that ncsoft listening to demands sort of ties in to how fast they do stuff? I've had a few dealings with them in the past, and I know that it can be frustrating feeling like they're not answering or doing whatever you're asking of them, and they're doing it slowly at the same time.
And the last comment you quoted of me, well. Whoever said I was only talking to you? I'm sorry if you were confused, next time I try to speak with you, I will use smaller words.
But let us be clear, you are NOT agreeing with the two and a half men remark. :eek:
I hate to be the one to inform you, but Charlie Sheen is an acting genius...have you never seen "Navy Seals"? Anything he is in is gold. (Men at Work was also great)
Two and a half men is pretty funny some times plus they have hot womens!
Anywho, L2 is kinda like an exclusive restaurant with a somewhat limited menu. You can suggest that they serve certain dishes but if it doesn't fit in with the head chef's "vision" it won't happen. Yes, they must do what makes a profit but I doubt that the $100 a plate place will server you a plain old hamburger.
The best advice I can offer is to respectfully suggest what you would like and vote with your wallet. When I get bad service at a restaurant, I leave. I don't make a scene. I don't demand to see the manager and throw a tantrum. If asked why, I will tell them. Calmly. I don't make demands.
On of the best post I have read on this forum. Lucid, sensible and mature.
But let us be clear, you are NOT agreeing with the two and a half men remark. :eek:
You'll always have Cashmere Mafia, I guess (my wife watches that tripe.) :p
Men at Work got boned out of an Oscar. Friggin' genius that movie was.
And if you want to keep this thread polite, I would not recommend calling people 'fanboys' as you put it. Might 'cause a bit of irritation especially with the players who have ovaries.
He he, good point :p
I'll just say "fanguys" or "fanfolks" from now on then :)
On a more serious note, to me, "fanboy" is not an insult, for example there's one person here that sometimes i think has a fanboy attitude but nevertheless is the person i respect the most in this game (yes, jkoster).
"Fanboy", to me, is when you're so happy with this game (which i am too sometimes, so i can understand that) that you fail to see how it can also have very big flaws that can be very annoying to some other ppl, and you try to blindly defend NCSoft whatever they do.
I'm sorry if I missed the point there, but I have the impression that ncsoft listening to demands sort of ties in to how fast they do stuff?
Not really, the whole point was that they announced something (Server Transfer) with a precise release date and kept pushing this date away without telling us anything except "soon" :mad:
By the way, we still dont have any details on how this Server Transfer thing will work, so... i demand details :D
Point of reference, I think there are a lot of things flawed in the game. There are many things I would change, and have been suggested in the past.
Often times, I do not like something but cannot come up with a way to suggest it be changed so I do not say anything. There are also suggestions I do not think fit with the theme of the game, or the vision that has been acknowledged, and I do not post those.
Also, I tend to keep my suggestions in private channels, rather than the forums, as I find they are not always suggestions that I feel would be received well by the more... asinine members of the community.
I actively take steps to combat what I don't like, but more than anything I believe that this game is what you make it. If you focus solely on the negative, the game will be a negative experience for you. If you focus on the positive, you will enjoy your time here.
Two and a half men is pretty funny some times plus they have hot womens!
Anywho, L2 is kinda like an exclusive restaurant with a somewhat limited menu. You can suggest that they serve certain dishes but if it doesn't fit in with the head chef's "vision" it won't happen. Yes, they must do what makes a profit but I doubt that the $100 a plate place will server you a plain old hamburger.
The best advice I can offer is to respectfully suggest what you would like and vote with your wallet. When I get bad service at a restaurant, I leave. I don't make a scene. I don't demand to see the manager and throw a tantrum. If asked why, I will tell them. Calmly. I don't make demands.
if the hamburger came with a side of dog poo you might not stay so calm.
Yes, but not as high-level as Zaarr.
I'm levelling my other characters there, and having a bit of fun doing so, but (just like you said :p) it's not as fun as playing with same-level friends... hence the need for Server Transfer :)