Punch of doom is a LAST resort move, Crush of Doom is just, powerful, Kamael uses souls and all the reuses are fine...
tyrant...
thats exactly the point tho, knight. crush of doom is NOT spammable, cycles longer, and is LESS potent. so Crushing pain should EITHER get a big power nerf, or cycle longer.
in an effort to cencede the weakness of the Kamaels in general, i opted for longer reuse. 5 sec means spammable.
First, as a Kamael Berserker has very little survivability, compared to Destroyer and as a balancing factor he, like Soul Breaker, gets very powerful skills.
as I know from my observation Kamaels skill casting speed is quite slow and, taking into concideration their HP/ CP and P.Def., if they will try to stand and spam some skill, even if a very powerful one, they should get killed faster than their target (if its not a healer/nuker, but if healer is left without covering units, then...). Also you should take notice, that it's very easy to disable Kamael by stun and since nearly every class has it I cant really immagine Berserker standing and spamming some skill.
Second - are you absolutely sure, that this skill does not require that bleeding rush landed first? Because if it does (and I'm almost certain it does, because it's very simmilar to Checkmate), it's like three times less useful than Crush of Doom.
So, I dont see problem with this skill. But then, I'm not a Berserker, I might be missing the point too.
Spud!! I've told you that in private, and I'll repeat again... Nerf us more??? Actually the reuse is 10 seconds, I timed it better.
I quote a lot of what Dark said. Kamaels are already NERFED so much: Can't wear heavy, heals only work 60%, low con, need souls to do EVERY SINGLE skill...
And Dark, Crushing Pain has absolutely no requirements besides the souls, the skill you're thinking about is Contagion, which is a lvl 64 skill that requires bleeding to work. It has the same power as Crushing pain at lvl 64, but you gotta land a bleed first. While Crushing pain doesn't.
I mean, yeah, right, nerf Kamaels more so no one plays them? What's the point. You, Spud, have a LOT of other skill arrays that you can use to actually deal damage with your Tyrant... you have blasters which are powerful, you have totems, you have so many other things that we Berserkers don't have. If we want to deal real damage on a target, we have to rely in Dark Smask and Crushing Pain after lvl 60. We can't frenzy like Destroyers... We don't have the Tyrant's arrays of skills. All we can do is debuff with Violent temper, hit, Crushing Pain and Dark smash...
And in PvP... well, not even going to begin saying that we need to be lucky to land both Shoulder Charge and Disarm to hope we'll survive. And kite, and Shoulder Charge, and disarm, and use the skills, and rinse and repeat. AND eventually we RUN out of mana and souls and if we haven't killed our target by then, we're dead meat.
DO you REALLY think we need any more nerfs?? Please.
The reuse on crushing pain and crush of doom is the same, although berzerkers have a toggle (that takes a soul to activate) that lowers pdef, evasion etc and gives faster atk speed (and some other stuff), which is why a berzerker can use the skill more frequently than a destroyer.
Please try not to compare berzerkers with tyrants, since they are in no way similar. If anything compare it with a destroyer (and as pointed out by Charmille, they end up lacking alot of stuff when you do).
Berzerker=light armor only destoyer lookalike with a bit more runspeed and some debuffs. Lot less hp lol.
Umm Smittie, unless Crush of Doom has a reuse of 10 seconds, it's not the same reuse. And Crushing Pain's reuse time isn't conneected to the attack speed at all. I've tested it, it's a fixed reuse rate of 10 seconds for Crushing Pain. It was the first thing I tried with the reuse rate, and I rarely use my toggle when I want to spam the skill cause I run out of mana REAL fast.
And Zerkers shouldn't be compared with Tyrants or Destroyers because there's just absolutely no connection. The amount of CP and HP I have on my Zerker is probably close to the whole amount an Orc fighter has for HP only, and I have a +4 CON tattoo. I don't get to frenzy, I have low con, so please, nerfing one of the ONLY real skills that make us Zerkers valuable is completely unfair.
People need to play toon first, THEN comment on it.
And people trying to compare any Kamael class to already existing one always makes me grin, because they fail all the time. It's impossible to compare, Kamaels are too different from anything in L2.
People need to play toon first, THEN comment on it.
And people trying to compare any Kamael class to already existing one always makes me grin, because they fail all the time. It's impossible to compare, Kamaels are too different from anything in L2.
Yep. That's why I comment about it and I think I can give a fairly decent view, since I've been grinding my Berserker from lvl 1 and I've almost reached A grade, all by leveling up, not using "second" ways of leveling if you know what I mean.
And the thing is that if you don't play a Zerker, you can't begin to grasp the concept of the character. There are way too many nerfs for the Kamael already to actually deserve any more. Suggesting a nerf to the basic stuff that makes the race and especially the Berserker class interesting and the only interesting things that actually define them, it's unfair to say the least. It'd be like telling a gladiator that their blasters should be nerfed. Or telling a Dagger that Lethal Strike or Silent step should be nerfed.
It's not like the Kamael are becoming PvP legends and destroying everything and can't be touched.
Oh wait, those are archers. My bad ;)
As a clannie of mine told me the other day: "Just make sure your Zerker doesn't kill an Archer, cause that's when NCSoft will nerf them" :p
I play a Soul Breaker and I would agree With MissB, I don't think we could stand any other Nerfs! I have some very good skills but it is balanced by the need for souls and the heal problem. I have played many characters and this one is very different form any others.
And Zerkers shouldn't be compared with Tyrants or Destroyers because there's just absolutely no connection. The amount of CP and HP I have on my Zerker is probably close to the whole amount an Orc fighter has for HP only, and I have a +4 CON tattoo. I don't get to frenzy, I have low con, so please, nerfing one of the ONLY real skills that make us Zerkers valuable is completely unfair.
Not even close to the HP we have. Especially if we go +CON too ^^
And Zerkers shouldn't be compared with Tyrants or Destroyers because there's just absolutely no connection. The amount of CP and HP I have on my Zerker is probably close to the whole amount an Orc fighter has for HP only, and I have a +4 CON tattoo. I don't get to frenzy, I have low con, so please, nerfing one of the ONLY real skills that make us Zerkers valuable is completely unfair.
Not even close to the HP we have. Especially if we go +CON too ^^
I know... I've actually compared with our clan's destroyer... And I do have a +CON tattoo as well, so...
Im not saying ppl should nerf the berzerker, I like mine the way it is. I do think it shares a lot with destroyers, as compared to tyrants, which the OP was talking about.
Zerkers just need to crit more, those passives and the crit buff they get sure rox. WTB song of hunter lol.
Destroyers are a raw power class... berserkers really aren't.
None of the Kamael classes need a nerf - unless you compare them with a temple knight or something. They're all getting boosted up in the next update, for a good reason.
Dude Spud Beserkers aren't that strong they need a boost matter of fact... heres an example
I had a 52 TH in doom, my friend was 51 beserker with PL, we both had 52 SE buffs, We were going to pvp but I said he will die fast as he was in c grade, so I took off my b grade dagger and put on that dagger you get when you start a human fighter :P, so we started i had turned on VS and Accuracy, he ran to do shouder charge, I ran out and back stabbed him, Lethal blow! CP=0 Then I used deadly strike and did 700+dmg then I did constant crits ranging from 200-300dmg, he did disarm and ran back to nuke :P, when stun came off I put on that heart shooting bow and did a stunning shot 200dmg +stun and a power shot 300dmg, then i switched back to that ng dagger and did a back blow and it was over.
When the fight was over I noticed that I had only lost 800cp...
Beserkers need a boost. Thats rediculous to get killed by a toy.
Dude Spud Beserkers aren't that strong they need a boost matter of fact... heres an example
I had a 52 TH in doom, my friend was 51 beserker with PL, we both had 52 SE buffs, We were going to pvp but I said he will die fast as he was in c grade, so I took off my b grade dagger and put on that dagger you get when you start a human fighter :P, so we started i had turned on VS and Accuracy, he ran to do shouder charge, I ran out and back stabbed him, Lethal blow! CP=0 Then I used deadly strike and did 700+dmg then I did constant crits ranging from 200-300dmg, he did disarm and ran back to nuke :P, when stun came off I put on that heart shooting bow and did a stunning shot 200dmg +stun and a power shot 300dmg, then i switched back to that ng dagger and did a back blow and it was over.
When the fight was over I noticed that I had only lost 800cp...
Beserkers need a boost. Thats rediculous to get killed by a toy.
you really havent faced the awesome power of the zerker until 60+
if you want to see some good zerker ownage try the MRT on lionna. theres a zerker there that can and WILL kill you even without crushing pain.
By the way, KnightOfDarkness, as a dagger user you should have noticed, that none grade and top grade daggers skills damage differs not that much to gimp your offensive powers a lot. Actually with that crap you can kill anyone that you can with your normal weapon, just a little bit harder.
Unless they have changed it recently.
Also he didn't used Sword Shield (well, yeah, it's emergency skill, but it refreshes pretty fast actually). When going 1 on 1 you should expect your opponent to have it ready. I don't think your UE would help a lot. And he also didn't debuffed you..?
Maybe I'm wrong, but he didn't used all his power then, while YOU, however did (I would have made use of switch, trick and probably even bleed though).
By the way, KnightOfDarkness, as a dagger user you should have noticed, that none grade and top grade daggers skills damage differs not that much to gimp your offensive powers a lot. Actually with that crap you can kill anyone that you can with your normal weapon, just a little bit harder.
Unless they have changed it recently.
Also he didn't used Sword Shield (well, yeah, it's emergency skill, but it refreshes pretty fast actually). When going 1 on 1 you should expect your opponent to have it ready. I don't think your UE would help a lot. And he also didn't debuffed you..?
Maybe I'm wrong, but he didn't used all his power then, while YOU, however did (I would have made use of switch, trick and probably even bleed though).
SB has Debuff not Zerkers and he used disarmed on him Did you read all of it?
SB has Debuff not Zerkers and he used disarmed on him Did you read all of it?
Not true. Violent temper is a debuff that lowers your pdef and casting speed by a good margin. It's an "active skill" but a debuff. A zerker NEEDS to use that if he wants his hits to do almost double damage.
Example:
Crushing pain against a lvl 62 BD without Violent temper. Damage. 731 (I was in B grade, probably with my A grade weapon I would do more).
Crushing pain against the same BD WITH Violent temper: 1.1k.
So, yeah... After 64 this should be the procedure for a Zerker:
Toggle hard march. Shoulder charge, violent temper, disarm, crushing pain, blade rush. If the bleed lands, contagion. Kite, shoulder charge, disarm again, contagion (if the bleed is still in effect), crushing pain... and then the target should be dead. And of course, toggling Strike back and Dark armor against Necros, for example. Dark blade... Should work against Paladins, but again, Paladins will own a Zerker with no big deal because of their shield stun.
Providing the stun lands and the disarm lands as well.
Problem? You might end up running out of Souls or mana if not both. Most likely both.
Right... we so totally need a nerf, don't we? *rolls eyes*
i killed him, but only barely. him = PoF'd, me = bish buffed.
So the guy needed Prophecy of Fire to actually be able to stand against you, you still killed him and you STILL think we should get nerfed?
Still no comment, Spud. You know I love ya and all but...
You're trying to compare yourself basically not-buffed (Bishie buffs can't compare to a Hierophant with PoF) against a fully buffed Kamael with Prophecy of Fire.
dont pretend the Kamael are weak, you know youre not.
Oh come on, Spud... they're not weak but they are definitely NOT such a powerhouse as you are depicting them to be to actually deserve a nerf! The ONLY skill we have that deals some damage, damage that a Destroyer does with no great deal, and you think we deserve a nerf? Please... Because it has a cooldown of 10 seconds, it becomes "spammable"? It's not even THAT spammable after all, and we have so many other nerfs that it's not even funny.
I think more than anything, you shouldn't ask nerfs on classes you've never played. We don't need any other nerfs, thank you. Make a Berserker lvl 60+ and go solo, with self-buffs, and see how nerfed we already are. We are glass cannons, forced to wear light armor, low CON, we have a SOUL requirement (Which your skills don't), we drain MP like water...
Please...
Don't try to compare your skills to ours, that makes no sense, I'm sorry. Different classes, different builds, different EVERYTHING. That makes no sense at all!
I wonder why people always try to compare Berserker to Destroyer. The only simmilar thing I can see between them is that they both wield big piece of metal. EVERY other aspect is radically different. I mean everything - armor, skills HP, CP, moving speed, attack speed, masteries, passive skills, active skills and self buffs, natural resists... heck, even the weapon is different. Only jewels are the same. Even then, mdef value differs bigtime due to magic resistance masteries.
Huh...
you have shield stun, essentially, but with some range to it.
and your 2 aoe skills have higher power than the same aoe skills (same in range, same in blast radius) as glads/tyrants, making Zerker the most sought-after aoe class for no other reason than you can aoe while running away, and stopping to blast. no need to charge, no extra stone cost, and the skills themselves consume far less MP per cast.
my tyrant skills cost more mp than your zerker skills, and i cant outrun you. the only chance i get at killing a Zerker is by cripple and chainstun which never works. crushing pain dealing the damage it does (with your incredibly higher Patk) with no after effect (like self stun) and extremely short reuse, coupled with shoulder charge, VT, only to run away and switch to Spread wing, shoulder back and kill me with another Crushing pain + SA/SB. thats MAYBE a 1/4 of the MP bar. a drop in the ocean.
that right there is enough to kill every non-heavy class in game. im willing to bet another cycle of run, spreadwing, VT, shoulder, Crush, run, at least once would kill the highest heaviest class out there. the only chance someone has against a zerker is to cripple or cut off exit path (i.e. arena, oly, cata).
youre not weak.
even if Crushing pain used all your souls in one cast, i would be happy with that much of a nerf (as little a nerf as that is) cause as it is, really nothing compares. there isnt a DD out there with that kind of CQC potential.
and if the boost thats coming does what i think it does, ill be very miffed.
my tyrant skills cost more mp than your zerker skills, and i cant outrun you. the only chance i get at killing a Zerker is by cripple and chainstun which never works. crushing pain dealing the damage it does (with your incredibly higher Patk) with no after effect (like self stun) and extremely short reuse, coupled with shoulder charge, VT, only to run away and switch to Spread wing, shoulder back and kill me with another Crushing pain + SA/SB. thats MAYBE a 1/4 of the MP bar. a drop in the ocean.
Well, only that if I wanted to use all that, I'd be out of souls and out of mana real quick. And then, I'd be dead meat.
What you are failing to grasp here, Spud, is even if the skills sound neat and powerful in the theory, we still have the souls limitations AND the mana limitations to them.
Considering that in order to win by doing all that, I'd have to literally SPAM all those skills, since my normal hits don't do much more damage than normal, I'd run out of souls pretty fast. Not to mention out of mana. And not to mention the fact that disarm and shoulder charge don't stick every single time, so you'd have to retry. More mana, and more souls. Yeah.
So theory doesn't apply to practice. I'm sorry.
that right there is enough to kill every non-heavy class in game. im willing to bet another cycle of run, spreadwing, VT, shoulder, Crush, run, at least once would kill the highest heaviest class out there. the only chance someone has against a zerker is to cripple or cut off exit path (i.e. arena, oly, cata).
Yeah, all beautiful in theory, here's how it actually works in reality:
A Zerker wouldn't have enough souls or mana for two runs of all that sequence. That's what you're failing to grasp here, Spud. And without mana or souls, a Zerker is very much an easy target.
And to beat a Zerker isn't difficult. You just need to stun them. Which is, unfortunately, so freaking **** easy.
now now, why is it that we can't have a decent conversation without resorting to offenses?
I'm just debating here with Spud, who I happen to consider a friend and all, the reasons why his ideas of a Berserker might be a little too overrated, that's all. No need to say he disgraced the Orcs, I've seen him playing and he doesn't deserve that comment at all.
SB has Debuff not Zerkers and he used disarmed on him Did you read all of it?
Not true. Violent temper is a debuff that lowers your pdef and casting speed by a good margin. It's an "active skill" but a debuff. A zerker NEEDS to use that if he wants his hits to do almost double damage.
Example:
Crushing pain against a lvl 62 BD without Violent temper. Damage. 731 (I was in B grade, probably with my A grade weapon I would do more).
Crushing pain against the same BD WITH Violent temper: 1.1k.
So, yeah... After 64 this should be the procedure for a Zerker:
Toggle hard march. Shoulder charge, violent temper, disarm, crushing pain, blade rush. If the bleed lands, contagion. Kite, shoulder charge, disarm again, contagion (if the bleed is still in effect), crushing pain... and then the target should be dead. And of course, toggling Strike back and Dark armor against Necros, for example. Dark blade... Should work against Paladins, but again, Paladins will own a Zerker with no big deal because of their shield stun.
Providing the stun lands and the disarm lands as well.
Problem? You might end up running out of Souls or mana if not both. Most likely both.
Right... we so totally need a nerf, don't we? *rolls eyes*
i killed him, but only barely. him = PoF'd, me = bish buffed.
So the guy needed Prophecy of Fire to actually be able to stand against you, you still killed him and you STILL think we should get nerfed?
No comment, Spuddy.
Ok this is 62+ they were 51 and 52 PVP is not always end game and high lvl I find I pvp more on my lower level Alts. PVP starts at lvl 1 in Lineage I think people forget that sometimes and it manners at the low end as well at the high end.
And Spudnik in CT1 A Tryant of = level to any kamael should never loose in PVP. (Points at the Period)
Ok this is 62+ they were 51 and 52 PVP is not always end game and high lvl I find I pvp more on my lower level Alts. PVP starts at lvl 1 in Lineage I think people forget that sometimes and it manners at the low end as well at the high end.
Nope. Violent Temper isn't a 62+ skill. Starts at lvl 49. And I'm not even 62 yet, my Berserker is 61.
And Spudnik in CT1 A Tryant of = level to any kamael should never loose in PVP. (Points at the Period)
Depends... really depends. PvP isn't really that set up in stone as far as I'm concerned. But I agree that both of them fully buffed, unless the Berserker's lucky, the Tyrant should win. I won't even comment on the other classes as I don't see, as far as what I've noticed from friends and all, a possibility for a Soulbreaker or an Arbalester to be strong in PvP as a Berserker can be.
Does not depend if the Tyrant isnt a total idiot. Carrying capacity = victory against classes that cannot deal such damage as nukers, archers, daggers and Tyrant/Gladi skill crits or Frenzied Destros. And your Berserker is one such class. It lacks the burst DPS to overcome the high CP and HP pool of a Tyrant that can spam CP potions and carry many times more than what the Zerker can.
But it seems that CP potions, GHP and QHP and elixirs are something you 6x people do not use.
Does not depend if the Tyrant isnt a total idiot. Carrying capacity = victory against classes that cannot deal such damage as nukers, archers, daggers and Tyrant/Gladi skill crits or Frenzied Destros. And your Berserker is one such class. It lacks the burst DPS to overcome the high CP and HP pool of a Tyrant that can spam CP potions and carry many times more than what the Zerker can.
But it seems that CP potions, GHP and QHP and elixirs are something you 6x people do not use.
correct, on all counts. CP counts as a win on siege fields where numbers count.
1v1/arena/duel its pretty useless. end up costing you money.
Does not depend if the Tyrant isnt a total idiot. Carrying capacity = victory against classes that cannot deal such damage as nukers, archers, daggers and Tyrant/Gladi skill crits or Frenzied Destros. And your Berserker is one such class. It lacks the burst DPS to overcome the high CP and HP pool of a Tyrant that can spam CP potions and carry many times more than what the Zerker can.
But it seems that CP potions, GHP and QHP and elixirs are something you 6x people do not use.
Truth to the last sentence.
And I hope you are not being sarcastic about the last line. I, for instance, can't afford to use those things, even though I'm not all that poor.
Does not depend if the Tyrant isnt a total idiot. Carrying capacity = victory against classes that cannot deal such damage as nukers, archers, daggers and Tyrant/Gladi skill crits or Frenzied Destros. And your Berserker is one such class. It lacks the burst DPS to overcome the high CP and HP pool of a Tyrant that can spam CP potions and carry many times more than what the Zerker can.
But it seems that CP potions, GHP and QHP and elixirs are something you 6x people do not use.
correct, on all counts. CP counts as a win on siege fields where numbers count.
1v1/arena/duel its pretty useless. end up costing you money.
buy a cookbook on different ways to cook kamael (or buy a chicken cookbook exclude all light meat recipes) and you'll never lose to a kamael again. :D