They did that with the increases to mdef at high levels (the rate mdef increases after 76 ismuch higher) the end result is that now a lvl 80 toon will have 25% more mdef than on the old table. However most of us fear a 76+ archer a lot more than an equal level nuker (yes i'm including lvl 80 in this).
They did that with the increases to mdef at high levels (the rate mdef increases after 76 ismuch higher) the end result is that now a lvl 80 toon will have 25% more mdef than on the old table. However most of us fear a 76+ archer a lot more than an equal level nuker (yes i'm including lvl 80 in this).
However, the intro of stones results in a increase of triple that in damage...
Thus making the m.def change pointless. :P
Not that I say nerf mages, let em have their time in the sun.
They did that with the increases to mdef at high levels (the rate mdef increases after 76 ismuch higher) the end result is that now a lvl 80 toon will have 25% more mdef than on the old table. However most of us fear a 76+ archer a lot more than an equal level nuker (yes i'm including lvl 80 in this).
However, the intro of stones results in a increase of triple that in damage...
Thus making the m.def change pointless. :P
Not that I say nerf mages, let em have their time in the sun.
you must REALLY suck at pvp to die to a mage nowadays. 101% Mcrit is only available when the player has VALAKAS necklas, and 2 Arcana maces (passive WM10, active WM10) and has an SD+EE78 to JUST support you. all that for maybe 1500 dmg mcrits. LOL at that.
you must REALLY suck at pvp to die to a mage nowadays. 101% Mcrit is only available when the player has VALAKAS necklas, and 2 Arcana maces (passive WM10, active WM10) and has an SD+EE78 to JUST support you. all that for maybe 1500 dmg mcrits. LOL at that.
you must REALLY suck at pvp to die to a mage nowadays. 101% Mcrit is only available when the player has VALAKAS necklas, and 2 Arcana maces (passive WM10, active WM10) and has an SD+EE78 to JUST support you. all that for maybe 1500 dmg mcrits. LOL at that.
vina, you can attest to this. being a 77 archmage who has taken Valakas, and has a LOT of support from clannies. you KNOW its much much much easier as a Sagi. hence, 80.
you must REALLY suck at pvp to die to a mage nowadays. 101% Mcrit is only available when the player has VALAKAS necklas, and 2 Arcana maces (passive WM10, active WM10) and has an SD+EE78 to JUST support you. all that for maybe 1500 dmg mcrits. LOL at that.
Uh-huh.
Oh, what do you think about my new job? I'm going to put my bachelors in Film and Developmental Psychology to good work by starting a consultation business for nuclear physicists. Mmm-hmmm. I can totally tell them how to do their jobs better seeing as how I have so much experience, you know, reading Wikipedia. :)
They did that with the increases to mdef at high levels (the rate mdef increases after 76 ismuch higher) the end result is that now a lvl 80 toon will have 25% more mdef than on the old table. However most of us fear a 76+ archer a lot more than an equal level nuker (yes i'm including lvl 80 in this).
However, the intro of stones results in a increase of triple that in damage...
Thus making the m.def change pointless. :P
Not that I say nerf mages, let em have their time in the sun.
you must REALLY suck at pvp to die to a mage nowadays. 101% Mcrit is only available when the player has VALAKAS necklas, and 2 Arcana maces (passive WM10, active WM10) and has an SD+EE78 to JUST support you. all that for maybe 1500 dmg mcrits. LOL at that.
Uh-huh.
Oh, what do you think about my new job? I'm going to put my bachelors in Film and Developmental Psychology to good work by starting a consultation business for nuclear physicists. Mmm-hmmm. I can totally tell them how to do their jobs better seeing as how I have so much experience, you know, reading Wikipedia. :)
LOL spud I could hit 1500 dmg at level 44 without even having empower doing normal nukes, You must be pvping level 20 nukers and please don't tell me that your losing to them lol!!!!
Also inevitable proof that Spud has reached maximum ignorance.
At lvl 70 I don't feel overpowered in pvp. Of course most of the people I end up fighting higher lvl than me. Someday I'll be up there in the high lvls, but of course everything will change another 5 times by then.
She's mocking you by making an analogy of her using a liberal arts degree to give informed ideas to a hard science field. Her point being that you don't understand high level content and thus your opinions are misguided at best.
She's mocking you by making an analogy of her using a liberal arts degree to give informed ideas to a hard science field. Her point being that you don't understand high level content and thus your opinions are misguided at best.
oh.
well, my sorc lvl 54 with simple Emp3 from buffbox SE, vs a properly buffed Dwarf = 900 dmg
given the resists and further increased Mdef of higher level gear and attribute stones, i would say 1500 dmg is normal in pvp for a nuker fighting non-dwarf classes which have good Mdef.
if you can show me SIEGE damage numbers for regular damage over 3k non Mcrit and disprove me completely i will stop posting.
until such time (as all the pvp videos of mages ive seen are for around 2000 for post-C5 videos, more damage in pre C4 videos) i think you all can kiss my white hairy crishna.
They did that with the increases to mdef at high levels (the rate mdef increases after 76 ismuch higher) the end result is that now a lvl 80 toon will have 25% more mdef than on the old table. However most of us fear a 76+ archer a lot more than an equal level nuker (yes i'm including lvl 80 in this).
Crusher/Slug/wutever > Archer. I fear nukers with Vortex+Crusher and 150 ele attk a BIT more than an archer.
She's mocking you by making an analogy of her using a liberal arts degree to give informed ideas to a hard science field. Her point being that you don't understand high level content and thus your opinions are misguided at best.
oh.
well, my sorc lvl 54 with simple Emp3 from buffbox SE, vs a properly buffed Dwarf = 900 dmg
given the resists and further increased Mdef of higher level gear and attribute stones, i would say 1500 dmg is normal in pvp for a nuker fighting non-dwarf classes which have good Mdef.
if you can show me SIEGE damage numbers for regular damage over 3k non Mcrit and disprove me completely i will stop posting.
until such time (as all the pvp videos of mages ive seen are for around 2000 for post-C5 videos, more damage in pre C4 videos) i think you all can kiss my white hairy crishna.
I'm just shocked NC actually managed to make both Archers and Nukers even MORE overpowered than they already were.. not to mention daggers backstabbing you for 15k damage LOL.. omg this is so broken..
Whoever has a lvl4 elemental attack on his weapon and a skill that uses that atributte will do insane damage, especially on a crit and the only way to counter this would be by having an equal or higher resist then that patt & surrender effect (in case of mages) which is impossible with just buffs + songs + dances & pots hence the fact you can also add elemental stones to armor (only S grade though).
The issue with adding stones to armor right now is the sheer cost/time involved in getting them stones and the fact you can basicly only protect yourself proper for 1 type of elemental attack (max 2 if you can afford to add stones on all s armor items) which means any other elemental attack will still hit you for insane damage.
The numbers on all of this have been posted several times on Blah and below is an actual break down as posted after extensive testing done in Taiwan.
She's mocking you by making an analogy of her using a liberal arts degree to give informed ideas to a hard science field. Her point being that you don't understand high level content and thus your opinions are misguided at best.
oh.
well, my sorc lvl 54 with simple Emp3 from buffbox SE, vs a properly buffed Dwarf = 900 dmg
given the resists and further increased Mdef of higher level gear and attribute stones, i would say 1500 dmg is normal in pvp for a nuker fighting non-dwarf classes which have good Mdef.
if you can show me SIEGE damage numbers for regular damage over 3k non Mcrit and disprove me completely i will stop posting.
until such time (as all the pvp videos of mages ive seen are for around 2000 for post-C5 videos, more damage in pre C4 videos) i think you all can kiss my white hairy crishna.
Christ... Ignorance is a bliss... *palmface*
so wheres the disproofing me already, call me ignorant all you like but I WILL REMAIN IGNORANT UNTIL YOU POST SOMETHING THAT CONTRADICTS ME COMPLETELY AND CONCRETELY.
you must REALLY suck at pvp to die to a mage nowadays. 101% Mcrit is only available when the player has VALAKAS necklas, and 2 Arcana maces (passive WM10, active WM10) and has an SD+EE78 to JUST support you. all that for maybe 1500 dmg mcrits. LOL at that.
Spud,
in this quote of yours earlier in this thread you stated 1500 mcrits and now you are asking for 3k non mcrit proof. What changed?
if you can show me tat 1500 dmg is less than half of normal damage, then i am wrong. otherwise, i have not yet been disproven. so i am right.
edited to add:
the reason i am asking for numbers should be 100% obvious. asking for a nerf where one is clearly not needed is redundant. if numbers can show that a nerf is needed, then numbers will be what the devs will look at.
otherwise, Qing about losing to a mage that a) has no useable CC or debuff, b) is actually hitting pretty low damage anyway, C) simply had more support than you, its all useless. proves nothing about the quality of a mage class, but proves the inadequacy of the opponent.
I think you might want to reread your original post in this thread again. If mages where only critting for 1500 then the regular hits would be in the 400 damage range and you would see thousands of posts by mages saying the nerf hammer smacked them into unusability. But in PVP with both sides are well buffed, yes the mage regular hit is in the 1500 damage range. But again this isn't what you stated in your original post. So the peeps laughing at you are doing it because what you stated is wrong in the original post.
spud check that taiwan link I posted, do a google translation of Chinese to English and check the damage increase charts
done, i see them, but i have no idea what it means. wat the heck is Daguai, and why is there 5 vs 20 vs 0
and what does that prove? adding elemental stones to weapons increases damage, that much i know. but i am getting confusing readings from those charts. with 0 stones 5k damage? with 150 elemntal attribute of water, 3200 dmg? what?
Let me lay it down to you. Lvl 78 SPS with full buffs and Arcane Power will mage crit for easily 9k on vortex. With all of those buffs usually 2 out of every 3 nukes is a crit (at least for SPS) Havent seen what the crits look like with full elemental stones.
when would progamer get to use those symbols in true pvp? not likely ever. also, those are all Mcrits. some of those Mcrits are upon a tank class, as they say 2500 dmg.
i have no doubt that most of the clan that progamer was testing it on was donating points (seen by the amount of wartags in the picture) thusly were significantly lower level.
Let me lay it down to you. Lvl 78 SPS with full buffs and Arcane Power will mage crit for easily 9k on vortex. With all of those buffs usually 2 out of every 3 nukes is a crit (at least for SPS) Havent seen what the crits look like with full elemental stones.
dont know what planet your from.
WIthout wild magic augment, the crit rate of a SPS is 19%, tested with 1000 nukes as the test, x3 tests.
with Valakas it jumps to about 50%, or with wild magic augment or with hero stick wild magic one. Then add another of each other in and its pretty mcuh 100%
Let me lay it down to you. Lvl 78 SPS with full buffs and Arcane Power will mage crit for easily 9k on vortex. With all of those buffs usually 2 out of every 3 nukes is a crit (at least for SPS) Havent seen what the crits look like with full elemental stones.
when would progamer get to use those symbols in true pvp? not likely ever. also, those are all Mcrits. some of those Mcrits are upon a tank class, as they say 2500 dmg.
i have no doubt that most of the clan that progamer was testing it on was donating points (seen by the amount of wartags in the picture) thusly were significantly lower level.
your proof is indeed proof, but obscure.
Its in the arena firstly dummy.
Second, since when was S grade "low level's"? See the arcane maces, drac bows, and such? Yeah thought so!
Might need to download it to see the full range of numbers.
Can also check her other downloads since she does have full 150 element and you'll see she does 2.4-3.4K per *regular* nuke depending upon resistance buffs buffed.
thats all i wanted to see, thank you ashane. 1500 dmg was not far off then.
2 people concretly say with 150 elemental attribute, you do around 2400 dmg to properly buffed pvp opponents in normal situations.
1500 damage would not be unexpected vs a heavy opponent, or a no-element unenchanted attack. 1500 dmg as the low end of the spectrum where the not-so uber ubers play.
no, not really that far off. it means my value (1500) was probably a lvl 74 nuker with no vortex instead of a 78 nuker with +6 nukes and a vortex+arcane power.
you didnt do it for me, you did it to PROVE mages needed nerfing.
concrete numbers are what developers listen to. at least, thats what Tabula Rasa devs listen to.
but what did we prove? that mages can do 2400 damage (on average) at the highest end of pvp.
more in some cases, less in others.
now, its up to others to inject the thread with subjectivity - "my class can withstand that damage, i see no problem" or "yes this is quite overpowered" or "thats too low, mine does 10x that using y z and a pro-biotic omega3 culture"
i have accomplished what most "nerf me" threads have failed to do. pull numbers out of the classes in question.
thank you. my pleasure.
srsly, if you want to whine how i am not contributing to a high level thread you can go ahead, fact is i have FORCED people to pull numbers up, to SHOW evidence that mages needed nerfing.
what have YOU done? sat back and call me every name in the book.
So, because YOU are a clueless newb, that dosent know a **** thing about it, that means .. something?
The Dev's can quiet easily see what numbers mages are doing. Why? Because some of them play mages.
I dont think they need nerfed personally. They are still as delicate as a flower barring Necro's.
That dosent change the fact that you sat here and told everyone *they* were wrong and *you* were right. When in fact *you* were wrong, as usual.
How about you dont post unless you are **** sure you know what your talking about? Then you could actually sit on the high fence for once and say "I *KNOW* I'm right... " instead of .. yeah I'm wrong.
do you deny that if i hadnt said anything people would be debating the need of a mage nerf?
internal testing 1v1 of the dev team is NOT testing. thats why we have the PTS. so that people can see the change for themselves. so they can take it to the forseeable limit, and go crazy with the buf***e, and pvp.
in all honesty i bet the devs dont even use BSPS for pvp.
that and tallum leather cause it just looks so nice.
true abuse of the numbers comes in at the point Progamer has reached, in the video a few posts up. 70k dmg crits (no doubt on lvl 50 toons)
would you have volunteered up how people who play mages do 3k dmg and that needs a nerf? not likely. had i not posted incredibly facetious numbers this information would not be available.
i know what i am talking about, and ive accomplished that which i set out to do. if you dont like my posting smack, you can continue to talk back, but youre not gonna truly know my intent until (as ive said) i fulfilled it.
if you think for a second that only Nobles know anything about this game youre sadly mistaken.
would you have volunteered up how people who play mages do 3k dmg and that needs a nerf? not likely. had i not posted incredibly facetious numbers this information would not be available.
I personally love this one. This is sig worthy material right here...
I.E. "Oh crap, I was wrong.. PRETEND I DID IT ON PURPOSE!"
~The more you know~
lol....
Lets think outside of the box, in general a mage is considered to be a heavy damage dealer for many games even non-mmorpg's and usualy there is a combat triangle were such and such class beats another class, YOU just goto find the right combo that will tear them to shredds.
Dont nerf mages.
Buff the rest of us up to their standards ^^
go learn how to buff >< you can easily get atleast 50 resist and that will take some of their damage.
and besides. its not only mages that gets like 60-70% more damage from adding atribute values to their weapons.
also do not forget you can add stones to your armors to get damage reduction for attributes.
given the resists and further increased Mdef of higher level gear and attribute stones, i would say 1500 dmg is normal in pvp for a nuker fighting non-dwarf classes which have good Mdef.
if you can show me SIEGE damage numbers for regular damage over 3k non Mcrit and disprove me completely i will stop posting.
until such time (as all the pvp videos of mages ive seen are for around 2000 for post-C5 videos, more damage in pre C4 videos) i think you all can kiss my white hairy crishna.
I'll show you where you fail Spud. You're assuming 3-6K DPS with NON CRITS, that's damage per second btw, is not TOO MUCH! That's the issue here, mages killing anyone within 2-5 seconds. Isn't that FUN!?
Even with 1500 damage per nuke, it's borderline insanity considering how often mages crit. Now we're talking properly buffed END GAME PVP.
I WISH nukers only hit me for 1500 damage with Magic barrier, Warding and CoV.
Spud epic fails again and again in this thread. L.O.L.
go learn how to buff >< you can easily get atleast 50 resist and that will take some of their damage.
and besides. its not only mages that gets like 60-70% more damage from adding atribute values to their weapons.
also do not forget you can add stones to your armors to get damage reduction for attributes.
Too bad 50 elemental resists does exactly NOTHING against someone with 150 elemental attribute. Need like a 100 to make a dent.
given the resists and further increased Mdef of higher level gear and attribute stones, i would say 1500 dmg is normal in pvp for a nuker fighting non-dwarf classes which have good Mdef.
if you can show me SIEGE damage numbers for regular damage over 3k non Mcrit and disprove me completely i will stop posting.
until such time (as all the pvp videos of mages ive seen are for around 2000 for post-C5 videos, more damage in pre C4 videos) i think you all can kiss my white hairy crishna.
I'll show you where you fail Spud. You're assuming 3-6K DPS with NON CRITS, that's damage per second btw, is not TOO MUCH! That's the issue here, mages killing anyone within 2-5 seconds. Isn't that FUN!?
Even with 1500 damage per nuke, it's borderline insanity considering how often mages crit. Now we're talking properly buffed END GAME PVP.
I WISH nukers only hit me for 1500 damage with Magic barrier, Warding and CoV.
Spud epic fails again and again in this thread. L.O.L.
and why cant you compete with that kind of damage? if youre facing end-game, this kind of crazyness is expected of the most powerful players. go learn a) how to defend better, b) how to group more, c) how to compete with that damage
put up a competition for that kind of damage first. read MY post again. whining about 3k damage when youre already an archer three-sub epic'd out in an end game clan. yeah right. cry more.
given the resists and further increased Mdef of higher level gear and attribute stones, i would say 1500 dmg is normal in pvp for a nuker fighting non-dwarf classes which have good Mdef.
if you can show me SIEGE damage numbers for regular damage over 3k non Mcrit and disprove me completely i will stop posting.
until such time (as all the pvp videos of mages ive seen are for around 2000 for post-C5 videos, more damage in pre C4 videos) i think you all can kiss my white hairy crishna.
I'll show you where you fail Spud. You're assuming 3-6K DPS with NON CRITS, that's damage per second btw, is not TOO MUCH! That's the issue here, mages killing anyone within 2-5 seconds. Isn't that FUN!?
Even with 1500 damage per nuke, it's borderline insanity considering how often mages crit. Now we're talking properly buffed END GAME PVP.
I WISH nukers only hit me for 1500 damage with Magic barrier, Warding and CoV.
Spud epic fails again and again in this thread. L.O.L.
yeah.. i miss the good ol days when pvp would last about 15 minutes instead of one side or the other typically getting lucky with a few initial crits or whatever.. and the pvp over in a matter of seconds...
in no way is that fun.... well maybe initially.. but it gets way old way fast
Just let it be, we all know that it will be a chronicle or two but that the Mages will get nerfed.
There is already massive archer nerfs this throne, plus the update introduces even more... and what, archers only ruled absolute for two chronicles or so prior.
It'll get nerfed regardless of what we say.
I still say that arent THAT overpowered, since achieving the "end game" Mage takes so much more then the end game Archer. Valakas alone is worth far more then even AQ & Baium put together. Not to mention WM10 to "really" be the bomb.
Although I will admit, it is one of the most fearsome sights you will ever see if you see a full 80 nuker group coming at you. (As Marti's group on Franz)
I still say that arent THAT overpowered, since achieving the "end game" Mage takes so much more then the end game Archer. Valakas alone is worth far more then even AQ & Baium put together. Not to mention WM10 to "really" be the bomb.
That was true last chronicle, but with their new 79 skills and elemental attributes they don't even need to crit anymore :p
I still say that arent THAT overpowered, since achieving the "end game" Mage takes so much more then the end game Archer. Valakas alone is worth far more then even AQ & Baium put together. Not to mention WM10 to "really" be the bomb.
That was true last chronicle, but with their new 79 skills and elemental attributes they don't even need to crit anymore :p
True, but there is still a huge gap between a "twinked" nuker and just a regular ol 79 nuker :P
Programer and those like him still utterly destroy everything compared to someone who isnt twinked like that.
If mages get nerfed il be dammed.
less than 50 different people have reply'd to this thread thats less than 0.001 of the lineage 2 community and still not ALL of the -50 people agree with nerfing mages.so why listen to these people?what about everyone else that cba to sign up a forum account?no point changing content becuase you havn't heard the other 99.999% of everyone elses opinion.
I still say that arent THAT overpowered, since achieving the "end game" Mage takes so much more then the end game Archer. Valakas alone is worth far more then even AQ & Baium put together. Not to mention WM10 to "really" be the bomb.
That was true last chronicle, but with their new 79 skills and elemental attributes they don't even need to crit anymore :p
I got my drink and I r ready to reply to all my dear fans and noobs who posted in this topic.
I state right now that I will ignore spudnik and other fanboys posts.
augment stones mmmh it's not the issue, archers can augment bows aswell for pretty much same damage % increase. Issue is chant of prot, and resists nerf. Making damage comparaison like : i get hit for 6.5k trhough perfect buffs and +4/5 s jewels. And i with double rings and attribute (not 150 yet but pretty decent) crit mages in A GRADE robes for 2.5 you guys still don't realise what is it gonna be like in a few months, when nukers begin getting these s80 robe sets with stun resist and s80 pdef...
no balance guys, nukers are fastest to xp, best ones in pvp, takes us back to c4 times when you used to do more damage on raid bosses with freezing stike than with an archer crit...
so believe it or not, to all nukers crybabies out there I have a special one fingered message.
Lets not forget that any mdef passive in the next update will make mages fail more often, this means that other casters, kamael, and knight based classes will be able to stand up to mages much better.
As Spud spoke to Tabula Rasa devs who spoke to Lineage 2 devs, there will be changes to elements with the first part of 2nd Throne : Gracia.
They didn't precise what direction the change will take, but I'm sure they carefully listened all lvl 54 mages in order to take the appropriate action.
Spud, stop arguing over something that's totally beyond you and that you probably will never have to deal with. Either take your time to RP and take the best from lower levels, or play and level before opening your mouth about something you only see on videos.
Lets not forget that any mdef passive in the next update will make mages fail more often, this means that other casters, kamael, and knight based classes will be able to stand up to mages much better.
what are you smoking? Btw just heard they boost attributes to 300 in ct1+ xd
- Shield blocking nukes.
- Spells fail to 1 dmg on green mobs.
- Attribute stones on armors.
- Elemental resistance buffs and passives.
Mages have already been nerfed. Time to boost them TBH.
lol nukes fail on mobs, hilarious...
stones on armor lol...
elemental resist were capped at 23 btw.
Bun, do you even read release notes? At higher lvls there are shoulder pads that you can add elelmental resists too, It an upcoming updated the mdef passives will all add a greater chance for magic to fail, according to translated notes (CT2 I think)
And yes, nukes fail alot more on mobs now then they used to.
150 attr. isnt using its full power *unless* your stacked with resists. Go ahead, add more, it just means that extra attr wont go to waste and will be used to further negate yours.
If you go beyond that scope, thats fine too, then surrender will actually work against you as compared to now where it does nothing since your resists are already gone.
Again, not that I feel they need nerfed, but tossing on more resistances isnt the answer. It'll help vs those without level 4 element, but thats about it.
The whole elemental thing needs reworked IMO. It gives massive benefits to certain classes, and virtually no benefits to others. Imbal imo.
- Shield blocking nukes.
- Spells fail to 1 dmg on green mobs.
- Attribute stones on armors.
- Elemental resistance buffs and passives.
Mages have already been nerfed. Time to boost them TBH.
lol nukes fail on mobs, hilarious...
stones on armor lol...
elemental resist were capped at 23 btw.
Bun, do you even read release notes? At higher lvls there are shoulder pads that you can add elelmental resists too, It an upcoming updated the mdef passives will all add a greater chance for magic to fail, according to translated notes (CT2 I think)
And yes, nukes fail alot more on mobs now then they used to.
lol what are you talking about, resists were CAPPED. you can roll with 100 resists on armor and it will still be taking just the same damage as at 23. Not even talking about when you get hit by +150 attribute weapon...
fail on mobs? who cares about pve, and still dunno what are you talking about with the "mdef passives".... What i read in new patch notes, is 1 shoot-aoe-through2kmdef seed type spells won't require any more seeding, instead of what you can seed yourself for another +20 attribute.
who did make a fool from you saying esist are capped at 23? i have se and i can feel diff between resist=23 and resist=30. kk? maybe it's capped, but definitely not at 23.
From what I understand, resist is capped at a certain number. For example if you have 100 resist and opponent has 0 attribute only 30 resist will lower the nuke's damage. Now lets say you got 100 resist and the opponent has 100 attribute, resists and attributes will cancel each other out and the nuke will do damage as it was 0 attribute.
From what I understand, resist is capped at a certain number. For example if you have 100 resist and opponent has 0 attribute only 30 resist will lower the nuke's damage. Now lets say you got 100 resist and the opponent has 100 attribute, resists and attributes will cancel each other out and the nuke will do damage as it was 0 attribute.
Is less valuable than attribute stones on a weapon, so the attribute stones are on the boost dmg side.
- Elemental resistance buffs and passives.
Attribute maxed out at 150 negates that to absolutely nothing, and with still some damage increase left. So in all, these new things results in one thing -> added dmg and not by a small margin. They are adding m.atk as well as m.def btw so those two - granted the increase is the same - cancels out (excluding dynasty)
Mages have already been nerfed. Time to boost them TBH.
You have been boosted. Particularly when looking at it from a non dagger melee pov. When I get a skill crit the max I reach is 6k dmg, and nukers? 7-30K? Even higher with the right insane equipment. Not to mention melees don't got ludicris high dmg aoe skills, even if they can be considered "a hassle" to go off. And before someone goes /roleplay mode, yes you are nukers so you should have AoE but they should not be high dmg enough to wipe out multiple parties in a few secs.
Since i remember my self in this game nukers have allways been kinda overpowered Oo
The only nerf that u got was the sleep casting time witch u got back by more from giving fear to all of u lil nikers lol...
Nukers have been boosted and by a high ammount in this cronicle.
An arcana mace with 150 water attack on an sps works amazing wonders as at 79 they can allmost 2 shot everything lol...
An arcana mace with 150 water attack on an sps works amazing wonders as at 79 they can allmost 2 shot everything lol...
I think we felt that in last fort siege <.<
Tbh there seems to be some guess work or miss-information. Please forgive me for maybe repeating some points, its hard to remember all the different information giving (right or wrong) at this hour.
First off the cap people talk about is between 30-50 when excluding attribute stones. A guy made a test with resists going from 0, 30, 60, 90 dark resist while using a necro as test dummy. The dmg decrease stopped between between 30-60 resist and further testing has showed the cap is between 30-50.
About attribute stones and some people dismissing it as a boost please take a look at the rework of the resist system as well.
Talking pvp only, the dmg increase from attribute stones stops at 100 p.atk - the last 50 only factors in when the target has resist to that attribute as AshaneFB pointed out. When that happens the last 50 works as an inbuilt surrender and negates that down. So 50 fire resist vs 150 fire attribute is like the target never had fire resist.
The reason why the new resist system works in favour of is the amount of +attribute is higher than the amount of resist you can stack up. As Diege (on blah) posted, with +30 resist split out heavy armor set, Eprot, Dprot, +a resist pot of choice will only bring you to about 80-100. Leaving still 50-70 attribute atk intact, which still gives around 23-35% dmg increase if not more afaik.
Now Sws/BD got dances to specific elements but that means dropping already needed dances/songs for general defense. Dynasty shoulder pads and such will help with adding more resists, but then question remains will it be enough to even out the 150 attribute? More so, in an interview it was said that it was planned to crank up attribute p.atk to 300...
So if that is true people will be in general truly screwed against the ones that benefit the most from attribute stones -> nukers. Lastly, despite the heavy botting etc. I really don't see most high end players running around in Dynasty for quite some time. The +++ to dmg is far easier retainable than what is only the maybe possible defence against it.
Attribute stones are already a broken system imo, l2 needs more defence instead of offence. CP pots was a slap on bandage to try to resolve the issues of high dmg dealing/very short pvp, but in the end it just negated the pvp dmg of the classes that don't deal high amounts of dmg in short time.
Hmmm I may be wrong but isn't PVE how you get to those high lvl's everyone wants nerfed. How can someone not take into account PVE when wanting something nerfed. Oh ya thats right, they have already got there, so heck with everyone else trying to get there.
I'm 20% to lvl 71 and know it will take another 6months to get to 75+ if not longer.
Yes endgame level 79/80 mages who have arcana maces with wm10; plus valakas necklace; plus slug; plus a full buff/dance set do very large damage, but these end-game mages do not make up the majority of the mage population. Nerfing every single mage because the smallest percent of the mage population does 2X as much damage as a normal mage is completely unfair.
When Spud said that mages at 76 range do 1500 damage, that number is actually smaller than the real number. At level 77 using major arcana (yes I pvp in major arcana), +30 water attack, arcana mace +0 and +5int tattoos and emp 3, I do on average 1100 damage per nuke to another character in S grade (unsure of level). With the highest level of wm on. I have neither a valakas necklace nor a wm augment, and with the highest level of the wm buff, I only crit once every 20 or so spells (5%), nowhere near the 19% that was posted earlier. Whoever posted that as just coming from a pure wild magic buff is smoking crack.
The attribute system is also perfectly fair, as NC needed to make sure that you couldn't reduce a mages damage to under 300, as this wuld obviously be unfair. That is why there is a maxium effective elemental resistance of 30. But this 30 is not to say you can only walk around with 30 resist on. That 30 means you can only exceed the resistance of the attacker by 30. You are more than able to max out elemental resistance on armor the same as you can on a weapon, but it seems that most people don't bother thinking about putting elemental resistances on armor, since it won't help them pve as much as elemental attack will.
An easy example of how the actual elemental system works is this. Mage A has 100 water attribute, Player D has 150 resistance to the element A is using, When A attacks, the attack goes through at 0 elemental attack and D defends at 30 elemental defense. The defense simply equals elemental defense-elemental attack to a maxiumum of 30. If both the attack and defense are equal, all attacks go through at 0 and defense occurs at 0.
I'm 20% to lvl 71 and know it will take another 6months to get to 75+ if not longer.
lol thats cause you don't know how to XP effectively.
Less then 1 month I went from 70 to 73 (less 7% from 73 infact). And actually I'm lvling really slow cause I don't lvl just my self but also Buffers, and clanies, friends, etc.
When Spud said that mages at 76 range do 1500 damage, that number is actually smaller than the real number. At level 77 using major arcana (yes I pvp in major arcana), +30 water attack, arcana mace +0 and +5int tattoos and emp 3, I do on average 1100 damage per nuke to another character in S grade (unsure of level).
I know what type of nuker you are, but please enlighten everyone else as to which particular nuker you are.
Are you... A) The weakest. B) The middle. or C) The strongest.
Furthermore, the damage numbers have already been stated as 150 attr. You arent even *close* to your real damage potential. 1100 + 50% = 1650, without mystic. Thats on the weakest nuker btw.
You are more than able to max out elemental resistance on armor the same as you can on a weapon, but it seems that most people don't bother thinking about putting elemental resistances on armor, since it won't help them pve as much as elemental attack will.
Sadly, there are 4 different types of mage damage you need to buff against. Dark being one of the highest, with Water/Wind being a close second, and Fire trailing.
Also, your incorrect about Armor, but whatever I guess.
An easy example of how the actual elemental system works is this. Mage A has 100 water attribute, Player D has 150 resistance to the element A is using, When A attacks, the attack goes through at 0 elemental attack and D defends at 30 elemental defense.
However, Player D has (at most) 30 resist for say.. Fire, and thus is going to get hit for full damage against any Sorc. (Or whatever other element)
Name me one nuker group that rolls around with *1* damage type. I'll show you the dumbest nuker group on the planet if you do.
Its great that your overpowered, cuz frankly it was about time for Archers to take a seat and [censored]. However, lets not be a stupid about it and try to convince everyone that your perfectly balanced.
I dont see *any* other class able to dish out the crits you guys do. I mean, your pretty much on the "short" end of the mage stick, considering you obviously dont even run with a BD, you dont have WM Augment (passive or active or chance), nor a valakas necklace. Would be like a C grader coming up to you and telling you that you cant kill him. The "real" mages are in a completely different league then you are.
I'm 20% to lvl 71 and know it will take another 6months to get to 75+ if not longer.
lol thats cause you don't know how to XP effectively.
Less then 1 month I went from 70 to 73 (less 7% from 73 infact). And actually I'm lvling really slow cause I don't lvl just my self but also Buffers, and clanies, friends, etc.
Actually I do know how people level faster than me. I have read about and been a part of those max xp groups and such. Why I said what I said is because I take my, time enjoy myself and play quite casually. I could get there faster if I wanted to but I am in no hurry. As long as I am having fun thats what matters to me.
Like I have mentioned before I quit for a little less than a year (about a week less). I got burnt out and bored with the game. I came back to check out interlude and had fun again so I started playing again. I imagine if I hadn't quit for that year I would already be competing for hero and all that stuff. I will get there eventually.
Yes endgame level 79/80 mages who have arcana maces with wm10; plus valakas necklace; plus slug; plus a full buff/dance set do very large damage, but these end-game mages do not make up the majority of the mage population. Nerfing every single mage because the smallest percent of the mage population does 2X as much damage as a normal mage is completely unfair.
What server do you play on? Let me guess, LOLionna?
Level 79 nukers are a dime a dozen. 150 attr attack weapons are as common as Drac bows in a few weeks, the stones are being farmed at a horrendous space.
PS. get a bracelet and shop for some nice talismans...
wanted to throw this in for those who think mages are not overpowered at the moment..
am a lvl80 SwordMuse with elements on my IC set, with all bufs etc. I have a Water resist of 130+ 1,6k mdef and I get hit regular non crit damage of ~1,4k by a 79 MM who has lvl4 water on his AM, sure I survive 1 crit easily but MM crit a lot so lol
Well, I can only hope NCSoft Koreea does not hear you :).
Or at least that the koreeans have more constructive thoughts.
NERF!!!! this is not constructive, it is destructive.
Good luck in making a constructive difference.
I'm just shocked NC actually managed to make both Archers and Nukers even MORE overpowered than they already were.. not to mention daggers backstabbing you for 15k damage LOL.. omg this is so broken..
+1
That was a fun thread to read, post more; I am bored at work :P
in K+ with song/dance of arrow resist combined with CoP archers aren't as strong as they used to be so imo next is needed a rebalance on the element resist bufs and we're "fine" to go
Yes endgame level 79/80 mages who have arcana maces with wm10; plus valakas necklace; plus slug; plus a full buff/dance set do very large damage, but these end-game mages do not make up the majority of the mage population. Nerfing every single mage because the smallest percent of the mage population does 2X as much damage as a normal mage is completely unfair.
What server do you play on? Let me guess, LOLionna?
Level 79 nukers are a dime a dozen. 150 attr attack weapons are as common as Drac bows in a few weeks, the stones are being farmed at a horrendous space.
PS. get a bracelet and shop for some nice talismans...
Spud is the only person from Lionna that agrees with spud. Well, i guess some other 5X melee toons might share his opinion on end game mages but yeah.
For Ellisande, imo Ashane already came with some very valid questions and points back that explains 'your' situation.
wanted to throw this in for those who think mages are not overpowered at the moment..
am a lvl80 SwordMuse with elements on my IC set, with all bufs etc. I have a Water resist of 130+ 1,6k mdef and I get hit regular non crit damage of ~1,4k by a 79 MM who has lvl4 water on his AM, sure I survive 1 crit easily but MM crit a lot so lol
Quoting this because it really shows how NC soft didn't remotely think attribute stones through. I guess some people still gonna go so what, archers can mad crit blahblah, now its our turn. All fix/nerf archers and nukers thread always turn into a comparison which class is the most powered but it adds nothing to the discussion in regards of balancing. People also tend to leave out melee, buffer and healer classes in this kind of [censored] situation, which is just ******ed.
L2 pvp is already range orientated but this takes it to entire new lvl of shittiness. Particularly if NC does raise the attributes to 300. Retail l2 turning into private servers though ofc it doesn't help NC does nothing to remove the l2radar (yay for having a priority target list with healers listed on top and invisiblity mode), and not to mention the in progress pvp bot. Luckily word goes it can't work on retail duo to the coding.
The game was already overboard on the rotatio of offence vs defence, but now its just ridicolous. This attribute crap needs to be reviewed and not just in the case of nukers - it goes for all classes that are now a one-two shot machine with simple buffs (i.e. basic buffs + dances)
I just wish pvp lasted longer than just a few seconds. Ya maybe 10% of the players on each server last longer than that but most don't.
I have however grown use to the nerf this nerf that of NcSoft. They don't believe in ballance, seems like they want people re-rolling every chronicle that way they spend more money on the game.
I see hawkeyes crying about spike dmg their portable wh of CP pots cant overcome.
Maybe they could reroll again if they wanna 1-shot ppl again?
You, like so many other people in this thread COMPLETELY misses the point. We're not complaining about archer damage here, because, uh, hmm how to put this, this is a NUKER NERF thread.. O.M.G. who knew?!!?!?!
On that note, give an archer level 4 elemental and full buffs and he'll crit you in the face for 5-10K damage, just as bad as nukers. Happy now? Go make another thread about it.
Or lets talk about something else, stun boost! Hahahahhahahahahaa Archers and Tanks can chain stun like no tomorrow, even WORSE than in Prelude when stun didn't break for 8 secs. LOL.
who did make a fool from you saying esist are capped at 23? i have se and i can feel diff between resist=23 and resist=30. kk? maybe it's capped, but definitely not at 23.
and not mages need a nerf. just you need l2p.
"you have se" what is that supposed to mean?
And yes, any bonuses from resists are now capped at 23% (or 26%, don't recall exactly atm and i don't freakin care). I did test
this, so I don't rely on heardsays like you.
You and the 20 others guys on this topic should get a clue about what you talk about before you post and make an idiot of yourself.
Like the lvl 69 spudniks feeling bad because they run into stacked lvl 80 archer parties once every 2 weeks when it's "pvp- siege" time, then posts how weak they are compared to them. I swear - you guys are aces...
On that note, give an archer level 4 elemental and full buffs and he'll crit you in the face for 5-10K damage, just as bad as nukers. Happy now? Go make another thread about it.
i guess if you give a dwarf a 150 bow and full buffs and go in selfbuffed with a lvl 69 sps, he'll just crit you for around 5k aswell.
ironically, if you put the sps just in a siren pow party, he will smash a lvl 80 prophet buffed dwarf in a couple seconds.
I see hawkeyes crying about spike dmg their portable wh of CP pots cant overcome.
Maybe they could reroll again if they wanna 1-shot ppl again?
You, like so many other people in this thread COMPLETELY misses the point. We're not complaining about archer damage here, because, uh, hmm how to put this, this is a NUKER NERF thread.. O.M.G. who knew?!!?!?!
On that note, give an archer level 4 elemental and full buffs and he'll crit you in the face for 5-10K damage, just as bad as nukers. Happy now? Go make another thread about it.
Or lets talk about something else, stun boost! Hahahahhahahahahaa Archers and Tanks can chain stun like no tomorrow, even WORSE than in Prelude when stun didn't break for 8 secs. LOL.
When Spud said that mages at 76 range do 1500 damage, that number is actually smaller than the real number. At level 77 using major arcana (yes I pvp in major arcana), +30 water attack, arcana mace +0 and +5int tattoos and emp 3, I do on average 1100 damage per nuke to another character in S grade (unsure of level).
I know what type of nuker you are, but please enlighten everyone else as to which particular nuker you are.
Are you... A) The weakest. B) The middle. or C) The strongest.
Furthermore, the damage numbers have already been stated as 150 attr. You arent even *close* to your real damage potential. 1100 + 50% = 1650, without mystic. Thats on the weakest nuker btw.
You are more than able to max out elemental resistance on armor the same as you can on a weapon, but it seems that most people don't bother thinking about putting elemental resistances on armor, since it won't help them pve as much as elemental attack will.
Sadly, there are 4 different types of mage damage you need to buff against. Dark being one of the highest, with Water/Wind being a close second, and Fire trailing.
Also, your incorrect about Armor, but whatever I guess.
An easy example of how the actual elemental system works is this. Mage A has 100 water attribute, Player D has 150 resistance to the element A is using, When A attacks, the attack goes through at 0 elemental attack and D defends at 30 elemental defense.
However, Player D has (at most) 30 resist for say.. Fire, and thus is going to get hit for full damage against any Sorc. (Or whatever other element)
Name me one nuker group that rolls around with *1* damage type. I'll show you the dumbest nuker group on the planet if you do.
Its great that your overpowered, cuz frankly it was about time for Archers to take a seat and [censored]. However, lets not be a stupid about it and try to convince everyone that your perfectly balanced.
I dont see *any* other class able to dish out the crits you guys do. I mean, your pretty much on the "short" end of the mage stick, considering you obviously dont even run with a BD, you dont have WM Augment (passive or active or chance), nor a valakas necklace. Would be like a C grader coming up to you and telling you that you cant kill him. The "real" mages are in a completely different league then you are.
I'm a level 77 mystic muse. With arcana set and +5int, I have the highest natural m attack a mystic muse can get without wearing the demon set. So whatever damage I do with empowerr, is the highest that a level 77 mm, who hasn't deleveled from 78, 79, or 80, can possibly do under the circumstances.
You say I am incorrect about armor, but do not explain how. Is it that you can only max out 100 from using attribute stones? Even if that were the case, the difference is only 50, not 120, and you are still able to get songs/dances and buffs. If your problem is that you have maximum offensive buffs but so bitterly complain about being hit too hard, maybe its time to stop whining and evaulate if every single buff you have really is helping you out more than taking some elemental protection buffs.
Your Player D example didn't really shed any new light around that wasn't obvious. The only thing it failed to show is that Player D does not have a maximum elemental resistance of 30 against every element. So in that case, it was actually lying by trying to make everyone believe you can only have a 30 max defense for every element.
Name me 1 archer group that rolls around with just 1 damage type, and I'll show you the dumbest archer group on the planet. One doesn't always have a choice in who they can find to group with, and even still, rolling around with just one element isn't necessarily bad as you can all share a single surrender and vortex (until slug), as well an aoe surrender from a single summoner if you are a mm or am.
Mages critting for 4x damage is roughly equal to any physical character with full crit buffs, so that is a mute point, they aren't doing any more excessive damage than anyone else barring the use of crit damage reducing buffs.
As far as my equipment, just maybe, and I know this hard for you to udnerstand, just maybe I have almost no luck in applying augment stones, attribute stones and am not in an allaince capable of downing valakas. What I have is all that I have and all that I can have without joining an entire alliance full of lolers. Though considering that my grasp of magery in this game is on par with any of these so called "major leagurs", I woudln't really go around saying they are ona different level, they are just luckier. Get a gm to give me their gear and levels, and then I can come back and tell you how whether mages with epics and lots of luck are more overpowered than any other character with lots of luck. Until that day, I form my opinion based on my personal game experience and see no reason to change my stance on the issue of a normal mage until my circumstances are changed.
I'm a level 77 mystic muse. With arcana set and +5int, I have the highest natural m attack a mystic muse can get without wearing the demon set. So whatever damage I do with empowerr, is the highest that a level 77 mm, who hasn't deleveled from 78, 79, or 80, can possibly do under the circumstances.
Are you, or are you not the weakest nuker in the game? Its a simple yes or no question. The answer is yes, you are the weakest nuker in the game.
You say I am incorrect about armor, but do not explain how. Is it that you can only max out 100 from using attribute stones? Even if that were the case, the difference is only 50, not 120, and you are still able to get songs/dances and buffs.
You dont even know and yet your trying to bring it into the discussion and act educated about it? ... Whatever.
If your problem is that you have maximum offensive buffs but so bitterly complain about being hit too hard, maybe its time to stop whining and evaulate if every single buff you have really is helping you out more than taking some elemental protection buffs.
You act as if we have so many slots as it is. Hell, you as a MM can toss on at least 3 debuffs with minimal effort. If you dont toss Warding/Vitality, your **** near a one shot to a M.crit, etc etc etc.
Your Player D example didn't really shed any new light around that wasn't obvious. The only thing it failed to show is that Player D does not have a maximum elemental resistance of 30 against every element. So in that case, it was actually lying by trying to make everyone believe you can only have a 30 max defense for every element.
How was it lying? To even hit 150 resistance your going to need every resistance buff in the book + pot. That dosent leave room for more, so your relying on elemental protection.
Name me 1 archer group that rolls around with just 1 damage type, and I'll show you the dumbest archer group on the planet. One doesn't always have a choice in who they can find to group with, and even still, rolling around with just one element isn't necessarily bad as you can all share a single surrender and vortex (until slug), as well an aoe surrender from a single summoner if you are a mm or am.
That was about the dumbest comment I've ever read.
Are you seriously trying to compare a bow/ranged weapon with attr to a nuker with one? If so, holy crap l2p.
As to the other comment, you always have a choice of who you group with. Most of us have "a group". Your part of "Bobby's" mage group, or "Sarah's" mage group. Your not just in a random how you do pvp party every time. (if you are, your doing it wrong, sorry)
Mages critting for 4x damage is roughly equal to any physical character with full crit buffs, so that is a mute point, they aren't doing any more excessive damage than anyone else barring the use of crit damage reducing buffs.
I love how you toss out at the end.. "barring the use of...". Well, duh? Who is not going to use CoP? Who is not going to use the new dance & song?
So, lets get this straight. A mage can do the same (or more, easily) then a Archer by crits. A mage can do far more then any archer crit on a regular fusion hit, let alone a crit. Yet, you can reduce the damage of the archer and even his ability to crit in the first place via armor. (or damage of the crit)
Where is the reduction for Mages now? It has always been a issue that you could not stack that many resistance buffs to overcome a fully balanced mage party, which is what most pure pvp guild mage parties are.
Though considering that my grasp of magery in this game is on par with any of these so called "major leagurs", I woudln't really go around saying they are ona different level, they are just luckier.
Keep telling yourself everyone is luckier then you are. It will make it all right, I promise.
Just to beat the dead horse again, no mages arent "overpowered" yet. CT1.5 it will be **** close/there though IMO.
In recent pvp mages (79+) did more 2,5-3,5K per normal hit to tanks! Well I am an A grader, so I got 3-5K damage. That is insane. 2-3 shooting a tank is just ridicoulous. If mages are not nerfed, then tanks need a really really big boost in mdef passives and maybe a toggle elemental resistance to survive.
I don't see how a tank is supposed to protect his party, if he dies as fast as everybody else.
Make tanks with 3 elemental protection toggles.
Also increase their mdef and pdef by a large ammount.
Tanks should be tanks, an icon of resilience to damage, surpassing other classes by FAR.
Make people actually be seriously AFRAID of tanks, not because of their damage but because they're insanely hard to kill and can actively distract the enemy's damage dealers from attacking their allied damage dealers.
Nukers are fine, they're supposed to be insane damage dealers.
Other classes need ajustments.
Nukers are fine, they're supposed to be insane damage dealers.
Yes they are supposed to be insane damage dealers, but they are also supposed to be "slow" (they are not that slow) and they are supposed to be weak against any melee but they are not (atleast not compared to their damage)
Nukers indeed NEED to be very very weak against physical damage, but imo extremely resistent to magic damage. A nuker should have a considerably harder time killing another nuker then an archer let's say. An archer should gun down a mage with absurd ease, and other physical dds should deal huge damage to nukers. (this already happens pretty consistently from what I know, maybe not enough?)
About their speed... well, I'm inlove with consistent cast speed since my first day of L2 in C1 (sorcerer forever) so I can't agree about this :p, let them compensate by something else please
:eek:.
that's probably because there isn't a single level 80 mage on erica.
we didn't move to bartz cause .. well, we're not ready. we have no 80s and not nearly enough epics compared to you all.
but you sure talk like you have any idea what goes on on our server. you must have learned a lot about what went on by watching DLMs vids right? lol...
That was about the dumbest comment I've ever read.
Thats exactly what I thought when I read yours, go figure.
When I said you were lying, it was because you were. A character can apply stones to armor for protection in the same way you can apply stones to aweapons for offense. The 30 maximum elemental defense, is only a maximum of 30 once all the dust has settled.
When character A who has 150 elemental defense is attacked by player B with 100 elemental offense, player A defends as if they had 30 elemental defense and player B hits as if they had 0 elemental attack. In that case 30 elemental defense is the maximum effective elemental defense, but it is not the maximum elemental defense, not by a long shot. By not showing this critical bit of information, you are trying to say that the max attack which can be applied to a weapon is 150 while the maximum defense that can be applied via armor and buffs is only 30 before the calculations to determine elemental damage have even occured. The 30 effective maximum takes place after the calculation of net elemental damage, not before as you needed everyone to believe. Had you shown this, your argument would have been even weaker, and so you did not.
Shall we show your complete and total ignorance of the mage class with this comment?
So, lets get this straight. A mage can do the same (or more, easily) then a Archer by crits. A mage can do far more then any archer crit on a regular fusion hit, let alone a crit. Yet, you can reduce the damage of the archer and even his ability to crit in the first place via armor. (or damage of the crit)
Since I am nice, I won't completely embarass you, I will merely point out that neither mage/healer/buffer robe mastery nor healer/buffer/kamael light armor mastery nor buffer heavy armor mastery grants any crit damage reduction. Oops!
Does a mage do more by critting on their spells than an archer does by critting on a normal hit? That obviously is not an independent and absolute statement. There are examples we can all think of where an archer crit will do more damage than a magic crit, at least you can if you are as knowledgeable about this game as you require we all believe. You might as well have said that a Chevy going 60 mph is faster than a Ford going 30 mph.
You cannot stack enough resistance buffs to reduce the damage of an assorted mage party? Just because you cannot reduce the damage as much in C7 as you could in C6 when there were no attribute stones for either offense or defense, doesn't mean there aren't general elemental protections you can get which will reduce the damage you take if you didn't have them on. Resist dark, elemental protection, resist elemental, invocation and whammo you've covered all the basics with just a hiero and a sword must (because you must have them for invoc and resist elemental :P). Of course this wont help as much when the mages are now waltzing around with these full 150 elemental weapons while you are refusing to use the stones to increase your own elemental resistance, but then again if the mages didn't have the ability to increase their damage with the stones, they'd be hitting you through all those buffs for 300 a spell. Perhaps there is a slight discrepancy between the ability to apply elemental stones for defense verse offense as everyone wants to use 1 stone to kill two and a half birds. At the end of the day, you need to pick your poison. If your beliefs about the total composition of mages on your server were wrong, you're going to pay for it regardless of whether the mage group that killed you was homogenous or heterogenous.
Let me also bring up I never said that level 79+mages with a valakas necklace, a wm passive and active augment, 150 elemental attack and a full buff set were not overpowered. What I did say and am continuing to say is that mages who do not have these things which take a great deal of luck to acquire are most definitely not overpowered and so nerfing every mage because a fully twinked mage is overpowered would be completely unfair. The solution to the problem needs to target the problem itself; the wm augments and the valakas necklace.
You dont even know and yet your trying to bring it into the discussion and act educated about it? ... Whatever.
Apparently I know as much, if not more, than you since you have failed to bring up exactly where I am wrong. This reminds me of a contrary to fact condition:
When I said you were lying, it was because you were. A character can apply stones to armor for protection in the same way you can apply stones to aweapons for offense. The 30 maximum elemental defense, is only a maximum of 30 once all the dust has settled.
The 30 I got was purely from Elemental Protection, not from Stones on the armor. (30 fire used in the example)
When character A who has 150 elemental defense is attacked by player B with 100 elemental offense, player A defends as if they had 30 elemental defense and player B hits as if they had 0 elemental attack. In that case 30 elemental defense is the maximum effective elemental defense, but it is not the maximum elemental defense, not by a long shot. By not showing this critical bit of information, you are trying to say that the max attack which can be applied to a weapon is 150 while the maximum defense that can be applied via armor and buffs is only 30 before the calculations to determine elemental damage have even occured. The 30 effective maximum takes place after the calculation of net elemental damage, not before as you needed everyone to believe. Had you shown this, your argument would have been even weaker, and so you did not.
Shall we show your complete and total ignorance of the mage class with this comment?
Your still acting as if its so easy to get level 4 on each armor peice, which only increases it by *30*, not 150 like it does for a weapon.
Lets say you do it, for sh*ts and giggles. You've got 30 to water, fire, wind, and dark. With a 150 atr weapon, you've only reduced there damage by..nothing. Yes, nothing.
Lets say you then buff EProt. Ok, so now your sitting at 50 water/wind, and 60 fire. Guess what? He (or she) can now toss Surrender into play, giving a increase of 20 atr, making you again at 30 water/wind or 40 fire. You've reduced their damage.. by nothing.
So in effect, to even crack the atr on the weapon, you need *full level 4* on *every* piece of armor, you need e*prot, you need a specific pot to the damage your taking AND you need the appropriate resistance.
So its "perfectly ok" to have to hit level 4 *4* times while a Mage needs to hit it *once*? Get real.
Since I am nice, I won't completely embarass you, I will merely point out that neither mage/healer/buffer robe mastery nor healer/buffer/kamael light armor mastery nor buffer heavy armor mastery grants any crit damage reduction. Oops!
Duh? The point is however, that ways are around to mitigate archer damage. No such way is around for Mages anymore. Now the most you can do is weaken them, but never get them to the point they were pre CT1.
Is that too hard for you to understand? You've got to protect yourself from dark/water/wind the most, and fire the least. In order to do that, you cannot buff yourself to hit a state where their damage would be LESS OR EQUAL to what it was Pre CT1 IF they have a 150 ATR weapon. Simple.
Let me also bring up I never said that level 79+mages with a valakas necklace, a wm passive and active augment, 150 elemental attack and a full buff set were not overpowered. What I did say and am continuing to say is that mages who do not have these things which take a great deal of luck to acquire are most definitely not overpowered and so nerfing every mage because a fully twinked mage is overpowered would be completely unfair. The solution to the problem needs to target the problem itself; the wm augments and the valakas necklace.
You honestly think developers balance games based upon mid game? Of course they dont.
Lineage 2 developers have stated in interviews they balance -end game- first.
Its the nature of the beast. You cant have someone who is level 80 being so overpowered that it breaks the game. No one considers the lowers or "unlucky" as you say.
The main problem is that on one hand a mage who uses an attribute of his nukes specialty gets a great increase in power against all targets, on the other hand the defence stones applied, reduce damage only of the selected attribute, so all other attributes do max damage.
As for Erica it is logical that whenever there is a dominant alliance, be it fob or RR, most end game players will want to join them. My clan belongs to Gaia/Terra alliance and we have lost plenty of end game players who joined either Fob or RR. Only if end game players are gathered in big numbers in other alliances can a real competition happen.
Sry but i need to disagree that tanker's cant be 3 shoted by mages. Why? Simple, mages have very low run speed and HP, any tanker that aproaches him will pown the mage. Tankers are made to suport phisical damage (pve and pvp) and resist more the magic but just enough for pve imo. Imagine nukers as R.P.G.'s or bazookas an rpg can easly put down a tank, they are made for that. Theres no point in a mage that cant kill close combat fighters at distance.
So a tank should be invincible? If a tank should be able to aggro nearly an entire party with no issues they should be able to deal 1 damage per swing. 6 or 7 people hitting anyone should kill them in a short order, tank or not.
A tank should be able considerably shake off any archer dmg and mage damage... obviously bring it down consderably... (instead of being smoked for 1500dmg or better a shot from a mage or by an archer, it should be down to 1/3rd that at the very least)......
Up close and personal kind of damage should probably not be so considerably hindered.. while a tank should be able to take a pretty significant number of leathal blow/strikes... (extremely high resistance at least to them).... i would expect the best method for a tank to be brought down should be close combat, direct malee damage.
Most of the tanks i've ran around with that are setup TO tank don't deal much for damage to begin with.... they could chop away at a mage for quite some time before killing them, obviously a tank that promotes the use of STR and Dex over con should be an easy to bring down tank..... a tank that increases Dex and Con and removes Str should be one tough SOB.
SKs imo, are papperweight tanks..... highest damage dealing tank around, easily the easiest to kill imo.. (at least should be).... The TK (that's the elven tank right... correct me if i'm wrong) should be a pretty decent middle ground tank between the sk and da.... da's should be just a mean sob overall.
The whole point of a tank is to be able to try and outlast all the other assisting party members, using hate and various other tank related skills to try and focus all the damage apon themselves.
A senariou that would be fun and of interest is in which 2 apposing parties identically matched groups..... are struck into PVP..
Both thanks using hate and all there other skills to draw agro would be used, and obviously the assisting players "try" to focus thier attention of the weakest and biggest threats in the group.
The result is with both groups using hate, that all the dmg is being directed apon both tanks, while the other party members are trying to focus thier attacks on the other party members.. the first to be able to break free of hate obviously are attacking those bigger threats.
Oventually the outcome will likely be that of who ends up being the better/skilled/more powerful tank as likely with enough agro power...as the tanks should most of the time outlast the rest of the group if possible if not a good chance that one of the tank will oventually drop.
Terry you could not more terribly wrong. If a nuker hits a tank for 1K damage, even for 800 per nuke the tank will be down anyway, before the nuker can be really harmed from the tank.
Now if you take a party of nukers and put it in a line in a siege, everyone is dead in 10 seconds, including tanks. Excuse me but that does not sound like the way it was meant to be.
Tanks are meant to be hard to kill. We can't deal any significant damage, all we are supposed to have is defence. So no class should be able to 1-3shoot a tank. I am not saying make tanks invincible, but I think it should take at least 10 hits for any class to kill a tank. In that time the tank party mates may attempt to bring down the enemy. If the tank falls as fast as everybody else, there is no point in having tanks.
I know what u mean, but as Tk i can take at least 5 hits from a mage, 5 hits for me is enough for any archer in my party take down a mage befor i die. We are talking about 1 class that can 3, 4 shots another, its not everybody. How many hits u can hold from an acher/close combat? enough for any real dd put down that target i think. I would like that my tanker could take more hits? Yes but not from mages, im alot more worried about a destro that put me down with 4 hits.
Mages can take down tankers that can take down archers that can take down mages. The problem for me is taht we cante really take down the archers.
Every whining about mages from C3 and up ended in mage nerfs. I have nothing again about PvP nerf but all nerfs were general so also PvE until now.
With new elemental resistances i think they are already nerfed a bit.
And we cud suggest that with mage nerfs NCSoft fix some melee inbalance.
Like that melee class have to click on mouse for every hit just like mage do and sure fix that melee class cant move until hitting just like mage when casting.
I am not arguing a tank should have some survivability, but noting should be able to stand up for very long against and DD party focus firing, that just doesnt make sense to do. Basically you are saying that a tank should be able to withstand more than multiple barrages (more than 3) from a fully buffed and decked out DD party. Why doesnt that make sense to me. In 1 v 1 they should have more survivability, but against a full group of DD's all classes (including tanks) should drop pretty fast when focus fired, I do not care what their claim to survivability is. If you make it so a fuly buffed out DD party cant kill a tank in less than 3 volleys, you reallize that tanks will basically be invincible in any sort of small scale pvp right? If 7 mages with full buffs cant bring down a tank in 3 volleys, 1 mage getting jumped by a tank will be out of MP before the tank dies, thats just crazy.
I know what u mean, but as Tk i can take at least 5 hits from a mage, 5 hits for me is enough for any archer in my party take down a mage befor i die. We are talking about 1 class that can 3, 4 shots another, its not everybody. How many hits u can hold from an acher/close combat? enough for any real dd put down that target i think. I would like that my tanker could take more hits? Yes but not from mages, im alot more worried about a destro that put me down with 4 hits.
Mages can take down tankers that can take down archers that can take down mages. The problem for me is taht we cante really take down the archers.
You people are 6x, you got NO business in this thread in the first place. Elemental stones are S-grade stuff so get the [censored] off already will ya? End game is what matters, End game is what is being discussed so if you wanna talk about some woopaloo lvl 6x handholding, go do it somewhere else. Your tank is a 1shot with a crit(which happens often) and your archers are 2 shots(vortex+slug).
And contrary to what you're saying, you CAN take down archers. Nukers are the impossible ones for tanks.
Now, get back to us once you have some elemental stones applied to your weapons and you've atleast SEEN a vortex+slug/crusher combo done by a nuker with 150 attr. Until then, go level.
and lucky or whatever your name is, are you seriously complaining about auto-attack? Did you maybe realise that melees dont 1-2shot mobs so the clicking would be insane. You need on average as many clicks per mob as any melee does. Less if the melee is getting stunned. Now get real, will ya? And elemental stones are a pure nuker boost first, then archer/dagger and a slight Tyrant/Destro one.
I am not arguing a tank should have some survivability, but noting should be able to stand up for very long against and DD party focus firing, that just doesnt make sense to do. Basically you are saying that a tank should be able to withstand more than multiple barrages (more than 3) from a fully buffed and decked out DD party. Why doesnt that make sense to me.
And what role of a tank makes sense for you in 9v9? Wasting a party slot?
In 1 v 1 they should have more survivability,
Their survivability in 1v1 is irrelevant, because even if they survivie... what for? They aren't going to kill anyone.
If 7 mages with full buffs cant bring down a tank in 3 volleys, 1 mage getting jumped by a tank will be out of MP before the tank dies, thats just crazy.
Who cares? Pre-CT1, 1 mage already was running out of MP on a dwarf that happened to carry CP pots.
And what role of a tank makes sense for you in 9v9? Wasting a party slot?
Well, taking aggro and allowing their dd's to get the first volleys off. And with a proper party setup (bishop with Celestial shield maybe or even an oop Dominator chanting invincibity) surviving the first volley, probably the 2nd and maybe a 3rd depending on how fast the volleys are coming.
Their survivability in 1v1 is irrelevant, because even if they survivie... what for? They aren't going to kill anyone.
Ever seen this interesting thing called the olympiad which in itself actually makes 1v1 valid, let alone random ganking etc.(and happens to be what NC Korea is balancing the classes around)
Who cares? Pre-CT1, 1 mage already was running out of MP on a dwarf that happened to carry CP pots.
Maybe in the 6x range, but if you can outpot damage from an endgame mage, the mage completely sucks. I get killed by mages on a toon with more than 15k hit points regularly when I am not properly pvp buffed, nd yes, I spam cp pots. Yes, someone might be able to out pot mages in 6x, or even early 7x's, but end game is a completely different story.
and lucky or whatever your name is, are you seriously complaining about auto-attack? Did you maybe realise that melees dont 1-2shot mobs so the clicking would be insane. You need on average as many clicks per mob as any melee does.
1 click per mob
click-target
hold F1
click new mob.
Who actually clicks on their skills? i got better things to do with my cursor.
and lucky or whatever your name is, are you seriously complaining about auto-attack? Did you maybe realise that melees dont 1-2shot mobs so the clicking would be insane. You need on average as many clicks per mob as any melee does.
1 click per mob
click-target
hold F1
click new mob.
Who actually clicks on their skills? i got better things to do with my cursor.
Eh, I do the same thing on my mage or fighter:
hit f1 (next target)
hold f2 (attack on fighter, main nuke on mage)
rinse repeat...sometimes I hold f3 in between the cycles to pick things up
And what role of a tank makes sense for you in 9v9? Wasting a party slot?
Well, taking aggro and allowing their dd's to get the first volleys off. And with a proper party setup (bishop with Celestial shield maybe or even an oop Dominator chanting invincibity) surviving the first volley, probably the 2nd and maybe a 3rd depending on how fast the volleys are coming.
Why not just replace them with 1 more DD? Even if that DD dies with the first volley... who cares?
Their survivability in 1v1 is irrelevant, because even if they survivie... what for? They aren't going to kill anyone.
Ever seen this interesting thing called the olympiad which in itself actually makes 1v1 valid
CT1 PTS TK hero here. But once the enemy starts using CP pots...
Who cares? Pre-CT1, 1 mage already was running out of MP on a dwarf that happened to carry CP pots.
Maybe in the 6x range, but if you can outpot damage from an endgame mage, the mage completely sucks.
Or that particular dwarf didn't. Again, there should be nothing wrong in a single nuker running out of MP on a fully buffed tank, if the nuker does not wait until UD and ToL wear out.
Why not just replace them with 1 more DD? Even if that DD dies with the first volley... who cares?
In a propper party a tank is currently a great asset. With a good healer and Propper PvP buffs a tank CAN survive 2 volleys currently and wil be able to actually hold aggro on themselves soon (hate lock for 3 seconds being added). That is why. An extra DD dying in 1 second is not the equivalent of your DD's being able to attack with 1 or 2 volleys while the tank holds aggro. It actaully kind of works now too with proper buffs.(but since hate doesnt lock it is kinda eh).
CT1 PTS TK hero here. But once the enemy starts using CP pots...
ok, well, start spamming cp pots on your tank.
*** You do realize that the korean devs are balancing the game for the olympiad right? So that means no spamming pots etc. ***
Or that particular dwarf didn't. Again, there should be nothing wrong in a single nuker running out of MP on a fully buffed tank, if the nuker does not wait until UD and ToL wear out.
No, with the damage a buffed end game mage puts out, unless the dwarf was keeping the mage stunned, they wouldnt be able to out pot end-game mage damage, which if the mage lets them get that close, they are a crappy mage. (and yes, if the mage is stupid enough to keep wasting mp through ud then they should run out of mp, but thats a crappy mage.
-----
And wait, so in 1 part of your post your saying that cp pots change things that olympiad doesnt matter, tanks should survive longer, then you are saying a dwarf, with not as much mdef as a tank by far, can outpot the damage of an end game mage, but the tank cant? Start spamming cp pots on your tank then.
CT1 PTS TK hero here. But once the enemy starts using CP pots...
ok, well, start spamming cp pots on your tank.
So what? Without UD, ToL and MP-eating toggles a tank does not have so good defense to compensate for the lack of offense, and will run out of CP pots first.
*** You do realize that the korean devs are balancing the game for the olympiad right? So that means no spamming pots etc. ***
I realize that the Korean devs have no idea of what they will "balance" the game for each new update.
Or that particular dwarf didn't. Again, there should be nothing wrong in a single nuker running out of MP on a fully buffed tank, if the nuker does not wait until UD and ToL wear out.
No, with the damage a buffed end game mage puts out, unless the dwarf was keeping the mage stunned, they wouldnt be able to out pot end-game mage damage
It obviously was before widespread use of WM10 augments, and well before elemental stones.
(and yes, if the mage is stupid enough to keep wasting mp through ud then they should run out of mp, but thats a crappy mage.
1. They should, but currently they don't.
2. It was you who said that it would be stupid if a single nuker would have run out MP on a tank given the same conditions as a nuker group assaulting the tank with their volleys (which surely means UD and ToL on a tank).
And wait, so in 1 part of your post your saying that cp pots change things that olympiad doesnt matter, tanks should survive longer, then you are saying a dwarf, with not as much mdef as a tank by far, can outpot the damage of an end game mage, but the tank cant?
No, it was you who said that the tank shouldn't be able to.
And no, a tank cannot carry as many CP pots as a dwarf can.
I realize that the Korean devs have no idea of what they will "balance" the game for each new update.
Thats certainly the best statement I've seen in awhile.
+Krissa.
So true. I think the dev's lost site of what they wanted to do a long, long time ago. Probably when a few of the key players got fired would be my guess.
"Dude, lets put in FLYING PIGS! WOUDNT THAT BE NEAT?@!?"
When I said you were lying, it was because you were. A character can apply stones to armor for protection in the same way you can apply stones to aweapons for offense. The 30 maximum elemental defense, is only a maximum of 30 once all the dust has settled.
The 30 I got was purely from Elemental Protection, not from Stones on the armor. (30 fire used in the example)
When character A who has 150 elemental defense is attacked by player B with 100 elemental offense, player A defends as if they had 30 elemental defense and player B hits as if they had 0 elemental attack. In that case 30 elemental defense is the maximum effective elemental defense, but it is not the maximum elemental defense, not by a long shot. By not showing this critical bit of information, you are trying to say that the max attack which can be applied to a weapon is 150 while the maximum defense that can be applied via armor and buffs is only 30 before the calculations to determine elemental damage have even occured. The 30 effective maximum takes place after the calculation of net elemental damage, not before as you needed everyone to believe. Had you shown this, your argument would have been even weaker, and so you did not.
Shall we show your complete and total ignorance of the mage class with this comment?
Your still acting as if its so easy to get level 4 on each armor peice, which only increases it by *30*, not 150 like it does for a weapon.
Lets say you do it, for sh*ts and giggles. You've got 30 to water, fire, wind, and dark. With a 150 atr weapon, you've only reduced there damage by..nothing. Yes, nothing.
Lets say you then buff EProt. Ok, so now your sitting at 50 water/wind, and 60 fire. Guess what? He (or she) can now toss Surrender into play, giving a increase of 20 atr, making you again at 30 water/wind or 40 fire. You've reduced their damage.. by nothing.
So in effect, to even crack the atr on the weapon, you need *full level 4* on *every* piece of armor, you need e*prot, you need a specific pot to the damage your taking AND you need the appropriate resistance.
So its "perfectly ok" to have to hit level 4 *4* times while a Mage needs to hit it *once*? Get real.
Since I am nice, I won't completely embarass you, I will merely point out that neither mage/healer/buffer robe mastery nor healer/buffer/kamael light armor mastery nor buffer heavy armor mastery grants any crit damage reduction. Oops!
Duh? The point is however, that ways are around to mitigate archer damage. No such way is around for Mages anymore. Now the most you can do is weaken them, but never get them to the point they were pre CT1.
Is that too hard for you to understand? You've got to protect yourself from dark/water/wind the most, and fire the least. In order to do that, you cannot buff yourself to hit a state where their damage would be LESS OR EQUAL to what it was Pre CT1 IF they have a 150 ATR weapon. Simple.
Let me also bring up I never said that level 79+mages with a valakas necklace, a wm passive and active augment, 150 elemental attack and a full buff set were not overpowered. What I did say and am continuing to say is that mages who do not have these things which take a great deal of luck to acquire are most definitely not overpowered and so nerfing every mage because a fully twinked mage is overpowered would be completely unfair. The solution to the problem needs to target the problem itself; the wm augments and the valakas necklace.
You honestly think developers balance games based upon mid game? Of course they dont.
Lineage 2 developers have stated in interviews they balance -end game- first.
Its the nature of the beast. You cant have someone who is level 80 being so overpowered that it breaks the game. No one considers the lowers or "unlucky" as you say.
Is it that hard to only put stones on for one damage type? Not really. Sure you may not have uber resistance against every damage type, but you will against your specific choice. The pots you can buy in villages also offer elemental protection, songs and dances add even more. So you don't reach 150 resistance for every element, cry me a river (which is exactly what you are doing). Archer damage can be mitigated partially, mage damage can be mitigated partially.
The last time I checked, 150-80 was less than 150; so you are still reducing elemental damage even if its not by a super high amount. That seems to sum up archer protection as well. Not perfect in any case, but certainly much less nonnegligible than you are trying to make it seem.
In the end, you are a destructive and unfair fool to ask for every mage to be nerfed just because the most twinked out 79+ mages are overpowered. Had you asked for the things that made this specific group of mages overpowered (valakas necklace+wm augments+full buffs), I would have stood behind you, as this would be fair and would not overflow into making my game experience even worse when I am not part of the problem in the slightest. Like NC, you fail to understand that to solve a specific problem, you must use a specific solution kill the actual problem instead of having the malignant cancer linger in the background while the rest of the body dies from the treatment.
I would like to ask why your focus has been on the elemental stones, which do not make normal mages overpowered, rather than the magic crit rate enhancing items which make even normal pre-76 mages too good?
Regardless of whether you can answer that, I still would like to know what it is that you claimed to know more of about the elemental stones that I do not. Your current silence on this topic speaks volumes.
Is it that hard to only put stones on for one damage type? Not really. Sure you may not have uber resistance against every damage type, but you will against your specific choice. The pots you can buy in villages also offer elemental protection, songs and dances add even more. So you don't reach 150 resistance for every element, cry me a river (which is exactly what you are doing). Archer damage can be mitigated partially, mage damage can be mitigated partially.
Which again, is 4 TIMES the number of stones. Really lady, are you thick in the head or what?
60 > 240. Period.
The last time I checked, 150-80 was less than 150; so you are still reducing elemental damage even if its not by a super high amount. That seems to sum up archer protection as well. Not perfect in any case, but certainly much less nonnegligible than you are trying to make it seem.
You do know theres absolutely no gain from 100-> 150 ATR on a weapon right as a Mage? That 50 ATR is ONLY used to reduce the defenders resistances. IF you manage to break that 50 ATR, they can then throw surrender/vortex to further reduce your ATR.
Even IF you had 80 of *EVERY* resist, you woudnt reduce their damage by a SINGLE point. Get it? Got it? Good.
In the end, you are a destructive and unfair fool to ask for every mage to be nerfed just because the most twinked out 79+ mages are overpowered.
I'm a fool? :X
I dont think Mages are overpowered, and if you had even read the thread, or the ending of **** near every thread I've posted on, I STILL dont think they are overpowered.
WILL they be? Yes... very soon. Are they *now*? No. Reading ftw.
I would like to ask why your focus has been on the elemental stones, which do not make normal mages overpowered, rather than the magic crit rate enhancing items which make even normal pre-76 mages too good?
Elemental Stones bring damage levels to the point of being a crit on every hit pre CT1 almost. That is how big of a damage boost it is. (The % gained is *very* close to what a natural M.Crit was in C4/C5 etc)
Durr.
Regardless of whether you can answer that, I still would like to know what it is that you claimed to know more of about the elemental stones that I do not. Your current silence on this topic speaks volumes.
I've already said it. If you didnt notice it, thats not my fault. You've blindly skipped it once, lets see if you do again.
Or hell, maybe you knew all along and were just trying to lie to people that 50 resist would lower a mage damage when in fact it wont on a 150 ATR weapon.
Attribute stones just made classes that were good and did not need a boost even better. There is nothing more to say about this. Fact is mage's gain allot from these. Did they need it? Hell no. But NC Soft has a weird view on what balance really is. Whenever it seem it is going the right way, they implement something that totally messes something up.
@Ellisandre
You sir are really stupid to think that only fully decked out 79 mages are the only ones that matter. The fact is that every 76+ mage with 150 attribute start to do immense damage. 79+ just fills/supplements their arsenal IMO. And why in earth do mages continue to say that mages are fine because archers are doing "insane" damage. God know that there are no other classes then those 2.
I hope that someday NCSoft gives every class the ability to enchant every skill with an attribute. I would like to see your face when you get 1 shotted by a Duelist using a Sonic Blaster that didn't even need to crit. See how your 150 robe will protect you from that because your attributed robe just doesn't protect you from his attributed weapon.
Here is a suggestion:
About armor attributes give each class one passive resistance to some short of damage. Knight classes should get two or even 3 passives. Then when the attribute stones are applied on armor, if they are the same type as the passive of that class they should increase that resistance by a much bigger amount.
Also surrender/vortex/slugg should have a chance to fail against knight armor.
Here is a suggestion:
About armor attributes give each class one passive resistance to some short of damage. Knight classes should get two or even 3 passives. Then when the attribute stones are applied on armor, if they are the same type as the passive of that class they should increase that resistance by a much bigger amount.
Also surrender/vortex/slugg should have a chance to fail against knight armor.
I'd put that but for each race instead of class. But yeah, knights should get some passive of those :o
I've killed several nukers and archers with my bishop sub, in arena only though :P I was lucky enough to get an active shadow flare nuke on my som and it hits hard enough to onehit most mobs in VoS. So.. trance, nuke, trance, nuke.... fun ^^
I've killed several nukers and archers with my bishop sub, in arena only though :P I was lucky enough to get an active shadow flare nuke on my som and it hits hard enough to onehit most mobs in VoS. So.. trance, nuke, trance, nuke.... fun ^^
I think one of the bigger issues thats been stated before, people do too much dmg in pvp. Getting or 2 shotted. Nowadays the biggest thing for healers is rezing people.
Pvp should take maybe 5-15 mins ... not 5 sec...
my view of balance is tanks kill archers.. archers kill mages mages kill tanks..
Tanks can't kill archers. They can stand up to them though, while others try to kill them.
If a tank can be 2-3 shot by a nuker, an archer will be 1 shot, or 2 shot too. So in order for an archer to be able to kill a nuker someone else has to be getting the nukers attention. If a tank can't hold its own against the nuker, who will stand up and take some damage, while the archer takes the nuker down?
I may be a noob, but I agree pvp can't be a 5-10 second fight.
Charmille can you plz tell us how long a high lvl/high hp orc like yourself can last against nuker/archer damage?
On the suggestions side, knight classes could get a 2min self buff with 4 min recast delay and long casting time (similar to kamael furious soul). This self buff could increase mdef and shield power/rate.
Also make excellent shield defence a real stat (like focus for fighters), give knight classes a much higher stat (eg 3-5% while other classes get 1-2%) and give one of the support classes a buff to increase excellent shield defence rate. Last give SwS a song to increase shield power/rate and excellent shield defence rate (which could also be a separate song).
When a tank hits for 150-200, that is less than cp pots, plus the archer runs away from you, kiting is his job, so you can't normally land a hit every tick. A fast tank like myself or an SK can land more hits on archers, but still hardly enough to kill them if they have cp pots with them.
Maybe vortex/slug etc should be considered a debuff, so that there is some protection against them. Or there should be some end game buff that protects against vortex/slug etc.
And charmille you still did not respond on how fast you die to a vortex/slug nuker :)
Titan 77, 3 shots by nuker in C5 while xping (so no protection buffs), that's what I've seen.
Charmille is darker green than the grass, that's also what I've seen.
I agree with that crits are too high and PvP doesn't last long enough. With lower crits and no CP pots, PvP wouldn't last infinite time but it would give tanks and healers more things to do. The lack of MP would still mark the end of the PvP.
And that wouldn't work with nukers doing constantly high damage.
Debuffs almost never work, buffs make the oop classes dominated everything. Buffers in actuall fighting is useless, healers are almost pointless, tanks are done for with a magic crit even with Vengeance
i still wonder what's the idea behind melee/fighter/knight classes debuff equations. They made it so surrenders, vortexes, and other mage debuffs have nearly 100% land rate, when melee physical debuffs just barely ever land, and melee magical debuffs would need +10 weapons empower, hero zerk, zerk and dance of mystic to land decently...
Basically Ashane, you have no idea whatsoever how the magic damage formulas were changed between C6 and C7; seeing as your arguments were subjective in nature. And if you do not know how the damage forumulas changed, can you really have a thorough grasp on exactly how damage changed between chronicles?
Would you have me believe that when I was hitting other players for 300-800 in C6, that I was doing good damage then when anyone other than a tank or a healer was hitting me for at least that much, if not more which was usually the case?
Do you honestly think I could be moved to consider myself overpowered when I see a destroyer running around with a blunt killing in 3 autoattack hits mobs that I need 3 spells to kill (vortex+2 of either hydro or solar flare, nveremind that this dest is killing continuously while I quickly run out of mp even with a full round of buffs) ?
And then like some offering of peace, you change your entire tone ; pretending that you haven't been shouting at me this entire time and suddenly say mages aren't overpowered now. Do you mean to say that when you refered to mildly overpowered you really meant to post balanced? Seems to me if you aren't posting saying mages are balanced or underpowered, and you do post saying they are mildly overpowered, you are posting saying mages are overpowered. And that leads one to know you are in fact posting to show you feel mages need a nerf and you ave latched onto the new attribute stones as that direction of the nerf you want for mages.
Yet despite all the silly crap is going back and forth, I think we can at least agree on 2 basic positions:
1)
A)Nontwinked mages were underpowered prior to C7 and had gotten nerfed every single chronicle between C3 and C7 (the reintroduction of magic resists with a vengeance!).
B) MM and Archmages in particular needed a pve boost, being the worst of all the DD classes due to a lack of sustainable damage output.
2) Valakas necklace+wildmagic augments+full buffs create overpowered mages, which should be nerfed by nerfing the wild magic augment and the valakas necklace
1) There's no such thing as C6 and C7.
2) A destro can't kill in 3 normal attack a mob you kill with three skills. Destros use skills too.
3) The topic is about PvP. It's implicit.
Basically Ashane, you have no idea whatsoever how the magic damage formulas were changed between C6 and C7; seeing as your arguments were subjective in nature. And if you do not know how the damage forumulas changed, can you really have a thorough grasp on exactly how damage changed between chronicles?
Mmm...I know most of the math formula's behind the game dear. Its a hobby. The stealth nerfs especially.
Would you have me believe that when I was hitting other players for 300-800 in C6, that I was doing good damage then when anyone other than a tank or a healer was hitting me for at least that much, if not more which was usually the case?
Are you, or are you not the weakest Mage? To make matters worse, your also one of the most "stacked against" Mages. (Meaning, most people will buff resist water over wind or fire if they have to pick due to buff slots)
Does that mean your gimp? Of course not. Your still outdps'ing a majority of classes.
Do you honestly think I could be moved to consider myself overpowered when I see a destroyer running around with a blunt killing in 3 autoattack hits mobs that I need 3 spells to kill (vortex+2 of either hydro or solar flare, nveremind that this dest is killing continuously while I quickly run out of mp even with a full round of buffs) ?
I'm sorry but PvE is not a concern. PvE is simply a timesink, that some do better then others.
Destroyer's got the nerf bat as well. Was it as hard as some wished? No, but they did get it and they got it hard.
And then like some offering of peace, you change your entire tone ; pretending that you haven't been shouting at me this entire time and suddenly say mages aren't overpowered now. Do you mean to say that when you refered to mildly overpowered you really meant to post balanced? Seems to me if you aren't posting saying mages are balanced or underpowered, and you do post saying they are mildly overpowered, you are posting saying mages are overpowered. And that leads one to know you are in fact posting to show you feel mages need a nerf and you ave latched onto the new attribute stones as that direction of the nerf you want for mages.
If you would go back to page 1 of this thread, you'll see some posts by me saying I never felt they were overpowered now. You'll also see a few more, saying the same thing.
Its one thing to argue against incorrect numbers and theories, its another to say a class is overpowered. Sorry if I'm putting the BS in your sob story about how weak you are at the moment. Your not weak. You are one of the strongest classes when fully geared up. Enjoy the status, its frankly about time.
1)
A)Nontwinked mages were underpowered prior to C7 and had gotten nerfed every single chronicle between C3 and C7 (the reintroduction of magic resists with a vengeance!).
B) MM and Archmages in particular needed a pve boost, being the worst of all the DD classes due to a lack of sustainable damage output.
Semi agreed I guess. Although again your talking PvE. Frankly I thought the SPS leveled extremely fast. (Two weeks 1-70 quicker then a SH for me personally.. though the SH was in C4. Both having a SE slave perm with BD dances)
2) Valakas necklace+wildmagic augments+full buffs create overpowered mages, which should be nerfed by nerfing the wild magic augment and the valakas necklace
Which has already been nerfed....
However, just want until the next update when you AGAIN get a damage increase of a pretty respectable % (due to seeds), THEN come tell me they arent overpowered when they are (literally) doing 125% more damage then in C4/C5 with full ATR + Seed.
wm aug and valakas neck were nerfed significantly in this patch elisande.
However, just want until the next update when you AGAIN get a damage increase of a pretty respectable % (due to seeds), THEN come tell me they arent overpowered when they are (literally) doing 125% more damage then in C4/C5 with full ATR + Seed.
or just wait till they release the 2nd set of elemental modifiers (element crystals) that bring attack element up to 300.
As far as I understand the elemental attribute points don't do anything past 100(difference).. So unless they introduce some really REALLY potent resist buffs I don't see what 300 ATR is going to do for you.
As far as I understand the elemental attribute points don't do anything past 100(difference).. So unless they introduce some really REALLY potent resist buffs I don't see what 300 ATR is going to do for you.
As pointed out, they work as "in built" surrender if target has resist to that attribute ^^ So even with 70 resist against the attribute, you remove absolutely non of the attribute dmg. With 300 can only guess the devs are thinking everyone gonna be running around with S80, which is guessed to perhaps cancel out the 50 inbuilt surrender or maybe more. Still, it's pretty [censored] >.<
As far as I understand the elemental attribute points don't do anything past 100(difference).. So unless they introduce some really REALLY potent resist buffs I don't see what 300 ATR is going to do for you.
how long will you feed us errated info, i told 5 times allready the cap is 150 not 100, and cap for resists is bewtten 23-26
it's a chance buff which last 15 seconds or so, knocks 1 of the buffs you have allready, and book to get it will probably cost more enough to make it cheaper to oe jewels. It's a minor change, nothing in the line of attributes or wild magic stack.
As far as I understand the elemental attribute points don't do anything past 100(difference).. So unless they introduce some really REALLY potent resist buffs I don't see what 300 ATR is going to do for you.
how long will you feed us errated info, i told 5 times allready the cap is 150 not 100, and cap for resists is bewtten 23-26
No hes correct, your not. Unless your misreading what hes saying.
If the opponent has 0 resists, 100 or 150 ATR will do the exact same damage. The 50 ATR is just used to knock down resistance buffs.
protection of rune, elemental, and alignment are 15 second buffs?
LOL betcha they arent.
The added effect of em is a duration yes.
10 Resist is the base effect though. (Grats, 10 resist...)
+40 chance trigger to element your being damaged by.. also triggers via stones on weapons, so not just spells. Even that is null and void now thanks to Seeds heh.
lol K+ is such a nuker boost... just look at enchantable skills.
Hell, Nukers and Daggers.
I dont know which is going to be stronger frankly. When K+ comes, then I'll say Nukers are overpowered.. but still dont need a nerf to DPS IMO, just weaker.
EVERYONE gets Mdef boost at 81 learned from a spellbook (should be enchantable). 3rd class skills can be enchanted to +15.
GF.
Christ your an Idiot.
Need to get to level 81 to get M.Def Boosts, which would be what, all of a few %? Factor in that how many people do you even know are or will be 81 in the near future? but heck, aside from that ...
New skills that can be acquired at level 81 have been added. Unlike previous skills, SP is not consumed to learn these new skills. When you double-click on the spellbook, the applicable skill is automatically acquired. The spellbooks for these new skills drop off of specific boss monsters (Baium, Frintezza, Valakas, and Beleth.)
Also, you mentioned that 3rd class skill could be enchanted to +15, I'm pretty sure you realized that this group of skills which does include Vortex, and Vortex Buster...
I'm not even gonna bother going on even more, because you make yourself look so idiotic and utterly clueless at times, its amusing.
2k pdef, 2.5k mdef in robes + shield.. yeah mages die easy :rolleyes: Doesn't matter how frail they are if you can't reach 'em before you're history LOL!!!!
Any real DD equally buffed and equiped can take them out fast, but if you want to nerf mages just cos you cant kill them with D grade equipment don't look for support mate
Any real DD equally buffed and equiped can take them out fast, but if you want to nerf mages just cos you cant kill them with D grade equipment don't look for support mate
Heh...
Grats killing some newbs who have never even had a level 80 character, let alone know what Buster is.
Running around in unsealed gear, without acumen SA. Your clutch, really.
As far as I understand the elemental attribute points don't do anything past 100(difference).. So unless they introduce some really REALLY potent resist buffs I don't see what 300 ATR is going to do for you.
how long will you feed us errated info, i told 5 times allready the cap is 150 not 100, and cap for resists is bewtten 23-26
No hes correct, your not. Unless your misreading what hes saying.
If the opponent has 0 resists, 100 or 150 ATR will do the exact same damage. The 50 ATR is just used to knock down resistance buffs.
shut up please, i don t missread anything i tested it.
you must REALLY suck at pvp to die to a mage nowadays. 101% Mcrit is only available when the player has VALAKAS necklas, and 2 Arcana maces (passive WM10, active WM10) and has an SD+EE78 to JUST support you. all that for maybe 1500 dmg mcrits. LOL at that.
EVERYONE gets Mdef boost at 81 learned from a spellbook (should be enchantable). 3rd class skills can be enchanted to +15.
GF.
Christ your an Idiot.
Need to get to level 81 to get M.Def Boosts, which would be what, all of a few %? Factor in that how many people do you even know are or will be 81 in the near future? but heck, aside from that ...
New skills that can be acquired at level 81 have been added. Unlike previous skills, SP is not consumed to learn these new skills. When you double-click on the spellbook, the applicable skill is automatically acquired. The spellbooks for these new skills drop off of specific boss monsters (Baium, Frintezza, Valakas, and Beleth.)
Also, you mentioned that 3rd class skill could be enchanted to +15, I'm pretty sure you realized that this group of skills which does include Vortex, and Vortex Buster...
I'm not even gonna bother going on even more, because you make yourself look so idiotic and utterly clueless at times, its amusing.
follow this logic to its illogical end.
there are a lot of lvl 80's already. 81 means stopping pvp for a couple weeks and farm it up.
end game clans ALWAYS farm these bosses. if not valakas, its sure as hell Baium and Frintezza.
since lvl 81 means +12 is a safe enchant (over 60%) it means there will be MANY lvl 81's with +12 or more 3rd class skills. such as Touch of Death, Targetable UD's (all 3 types), shield of Vengeance / faith, and Lethal shots. also Songs and Dances. yay for +12 medusa. LOL
+12 vortex? +12 vortex buster? equally as impressive as +12 Force and Sonic skills nevermind how crazy symbol skills get with sonic skills.
As far as I understand the elemental attribute points don't do anything past 100(difference).. So unless they introduce some really REALLY potent resist buffs I don't see what 300 ATR is going to do for you.
how long will you feed us errated info, i told 5 times allready the cap is 150 not 100, and cap for resists is bewtten 23-26
No hes correct, your not. Unless your misreading what hes saying.
If the opponent has 0 resists, 100 or 150 ATR will do the exact same damage. The 50 ATR is just used to knock down resistance buffs.
shut up please, i don t missread anything i tested it.
Your wrong, sorry.. get furious more. Proof is in screenshots -> L2Blah -> Att stones thread.
since lvl 81 means +12 is a safe enchant (over 60%) it means there will be MANY lvl 81's with +12 or more 3rd class skills. such as Touch of Death, Targetable UD's (all 3 types), shield of Vengeance / faith, and Lethal shots. also Songs and Dances. yay for +12 medusa. LOL
+12 vortex? +12 vortex buster? equally as impressive as +12 Force and Sonic skills nevermind how crazy symbol skills get with sonic skills.
+12 COV. wow. cant wait.
Do you think you can enchant every type of 3rd class skill/etc?
Your funny.. go luck at the tables and tell me which of all those skills you CANT enchant. I think you'll be amused. (Hint: Its not Vortex or Buster)
i have no idea what you can or cant enchant. i havent been on the PTS to know. i am making a point however, that ANY enchantable skill other than vortex means (bar none) that mages are NOT overpowered.
i have no idea what you can or cant enchant. i havent been on the PTS to know. i am making a point however, that ANY enchantable skill other than vortex means (bar none) that mages are NOT overpowered.
there are a lot of lvl 80's already. 81 means stopping pvp for a couple weeks and farm it up.
end game clans ALWAYS farm these bosses. if not valakas, its sure as hell Baium and Frintezza.
since lvl 81 means +12 is a safe enchant (over 60%) it means there will be MANY lvl 81's with +12 or more 3rd class skills. such as Touch of Death, Targetable UD's (all 3 types), shield of Vengeance / faith, and Lethal shots. also Songs and Dances. yay for +12 medusa. LOL
+12 vortex? +12 vortex buster? equally as impressive as +12 Force and Sonic skills nevermind how crazy symbol skills get with sonic skills.
+12 COV. wow. cant wait.
Seriously Spud just shut up man. +12 force/Sonic skills will NEVER be on par with even a +5 Buster who you can enchant to enhance the elemental damage. Until they add elemental enchants to everyone, mages will rule mostly.
ow and +12 is a "safe enchant" at 81? Have you even enchanted 1 skill? I failed at even 90% success...
As far as I understand the elemental attribute points don't do anything past 100(difference).. So unless they introduce some really REALLY potent resist buffs I don't see what 300 ATR is going to do for you.
how long will you feed us errated info, i told 5 times allready the cap is 150 not 100, and cap for resists is bewtten 23-26
No hes correct, your not. Unless your misreading what hes saying.
If the opponent has 0 resists, 100 or 150 ATR will do the exact same damage. The 50 ATR is just used to knock down resistance buffs.
shut up please, i don t missread anything i tested it.
Your wrong, sorry.. get furious more. Proof is in screenshots -> L2Blah -> Att stones thread.
Go read n00b.
The only noob here is you. I don't need l2blah and copy paste what some **** idiot writes there to look smart. I did the tests in game on retail. Write something when you hit 76 and are able to use attributes yourself.
Between you and spusnik... I swear to god, some people are freakin aces on this forum.
As far as I understand the elemental attribute points don't do anything past 100(difference).. So unless they introduce some really REALLY potent resist buffs I don't see what 300 ATR is going to do for you.
how long will you feed us errated info, i told 5 times allready the cap is 150 not 100, and cap for resists is bewtten 23-26
No hes correct, your not. Unless your misreading what hes saying.
If the opponent has 0 resists, 100 or 150 ATR will do the exact same damage. The 50 ATR is just used to knock down resistance buffs.
shut up please, i don t missread anything i tested it.
Your wrong, sorry.. get furious more. Proof is in screenshots -> L2Blah -> Att stones thread.
Go read n00b.
The only noob here is you. I don't need l2blah and copy paste what some **** idiot writes there to look smart. I did the tests in game on retail. Write something when you hit 76 and are able to use attributes yourself.
Between you and spusnik... I swear to god, some people are freakin aces on this forum.
I have 150 ATR on a bow.. next question please ;)
I'll post some screenshots in a few hours, then you'll kinda [censored] k?
0-100 attribute , damage increases (at least on promi) didnt try on other skill
100-150 attribute, zero damage increase good for when the opponent has resists(For example EP+Resist fire = 50 resist and you still do full damage if your weapon is +150)
Yes its mage era , but it was **** about time we stopped doing 300dmg to fully buffed targets.
But an archer/dagger has more chances to 1shot an mage down (50% crit rate and backstab hitting you for 6k) than a mage has.This game needs more defense imo ... But I will enjoy my chronicle. You can always stop playing for a few months. Noone will miss the whiners
0-100 attribute , damage increases (at least on promi) didnt try on other skill
100-150 attribute, zero damage increase good for when the opponent has resists(For example EP+Resist fire = 50 resist and you still do full damage if your weapon is +150)
Yes its mage era , but it was **** about time we stopped doing 300dmg to fully buffed targets.
But an archer/dagger has more chances to 1shot an mage down (50% crit rate and backstab hitting you for 6k) than a mage has.This game needs more defense imo ... But I will enjoy my chronicle. You can always stop playing for a few months. Noone will miss the whiners
Get the SwS song which is 50% archer dmg reduction lol. Combine that with the WC crit reduction and the very short "UD" of the BDs that reduce archery damage by another 80-90%. Daaaamn, so hard? A nuker party that can take 3 archer parties and see crits for 90 dmg from fully buffed Drac Archers.
PS. the dance and song arent even 3rd class afaik.