To start with my personal impression after about one week of intense gameplay, mainly on Teon:
1) Great game
2) Truckloads of content
3) Rather mature (forum-)community
4) Nevertheless a typical "asia-grind-game"
Point 4 is not meant as an offense; I was aware about this before I started to play. I personally don't mind to grind for my XP and my stuff, if there are some goals and motives.
And here starts my problem; now I must be very cautious to avoid certain key-words.
I guess, everybody will agree, when I say, that at least Teon is overrun by thousands 3rd-party-program-users.
When I read cross the board, this might also apply for other servers.
Why is this happening? (PLEASE go on reading! Don't post a reply NOW! :) )
I played other MMOs, where not a single case of that kind of abuse was ever seen and known.
What was the difference?
In these MMOs one did not get XP for killing a mob... XP could be achieved by solving quests and little campaigns ("chained quests").
Another MMO prevented the crafters from that desease just by letting the "craft-quest-NPC" move in a certain area: no biggie for a human player, but unsolveable for anything else.
Last example: Quests which require minimal logic input e.g. to put a round thingie into a round hole... cakewalk for a human player (at least for most of us...I guess?) but not to solve for an "artificial player".
Now I ask:
Is it the type of game ("hardcore grinder") which invites third-party-program-users? Is it the totally open environment which makes it so easy for all these farmers and exploiters to cheat?
Really, this is a serious question and should not turn into another "b...-thread". It is also not meant as criticism, because I personally like games with totally open areas and such. But if the price we pay for our "in-game-freedom" is this what we see when we log in, then I would reconsider.
Never accept cheaters, or evildoers in real life, lest we lose our hopes for humanity.
Why are there cheaters? Players cause them, or perhaps the flaws in human character cause them. People want the easy route, something for nothing. If players wouldn't cheat, there wouldn't be bots. I think that the blame towards NCSoft is somewhat misplaced...sure they should prevent it, but it is caused by much of the playerbase.
So we need to continue to work to make cheating against the moral code of the community. It is a never ending quest, but one we must undertake.
I played other MMOs, where not a single case of that kind of abuse was ever seen and known.
I'm interested what other MMO's you have played? Because as i'm a new player to the world of the MMO's it's every where. I see it at my local LAN's.....
You have the people looking for the easy way out, the others that want to make a buck off of them and the ones stuck in the middle because they want to hold true to what is right. So where does that live the middle class?
well when i was playing Final Fantasy 11 i didnt notice any bots because square enix was deleting accounts every week or month and that was posted on their site. No offense to NCSoft i think they are doing great
I think burning's reply sums up everything. Other mmos bots hide. And yes I have seen outdoor bots in wow and they have a "system" where they call people from other factions to kill em again and again.
And a bot can adapt very easily. Add some random ridiculously easy question to complete a quest? Like one and one = ? stuff like that. Even if the developers add 1000 different questions like this , bots will have a solution after lets say max 3 days. Those things were discussed over and over again.
Golden padlock. Nice try though :)
I played other MMOs, where not a single case of that kind of abuse was ever seen and known.
What was the difference?
In these MMOs one did not get XP for killing a mob... XP could be achieved by solving quests and little campaigns ("chained quests").
Another MMO prevented the crafters from that desease just by letting the "craft-quest-NPC" move in a certain area: no biggie for a human player, but unsolveable for anything else.
Last example: Quests which require minimal logic input e.g. to put a round thingie into a round hole... cakewalk for a human player (at least for most of us...I guess?) but not to solve for an "artificial player".
Those other MMO's must not have been popular. Quests can be set up by bots. NPC locations can be found with a simple /target and the circle-hole thing, is just simple logic of tracing the outside of the object to determine the shape.
The only reason a game is not botted is because there is not enough interest.
I played other MMOs, where not a single case of that kind of abuse was ever seen and known.
I'm interested what other MMO's you have played? Because as i'm a new player to the world of the MMO's it's every where. I see it at my local LAN's.....
You have the people looking for the easy way out, the others that want to make a buck off of them and the ones stuck in the middle because they want to hold true to what is right. So where does that live the middle class?
Stuck right in the middle of it all :(
Actually that caught my eye as well.
OP: could you perhaps list those? Because I would then expect that there wouldn't be any RMT associated with them currently or that they are very old games perhaps?
Because currently I can find RMT for every major game out there.
If I understood correctly so far, then you told me:
1) Even in instanced MMOs we have this
2) These programs can "learn" to solve logic riddles
Ok, I didn't know this.
In the opinion I had until now, these cheat-programs look for ways to farm XP, money, items the most economic (=the simplest) way.
Would it be "profitable", if there were no XP at all "per kill" but only for completing the entire quest and the only "loot" would drop at the end of a chained quest, after killing the boss?
I'd love to post examples, but wouldn't that lead to a closed thread immediatley?
Would it be "profitable", if there were no XP at all "per kill" but only for completing the entire quest and the only "loot" would drop at the end of a chained quest, after killing the boss?
That has no way of working in this game in that state. In order to level in this game you need to kill monsters to gain XP, quests are just a bonus of XP/SP/Adena or mats.
I'd love to post examples, but wouldn't that lead to a closed thread immediatley?
Just what do you want to talk about, bots or the moral player? The first will get a locked thread, the second may keep it open.
Splatter, with all respect.... I didn't ask, how they should change LII and if this would work with LII...
I just want to find out, if so called "grind-games" with an open environment are more susceptible to these kinds of cheats than games with different concepts.
Ok, two examples:
CoH / CoV
No "items" per se, only "inf" to farm
"Grinding" (aka "streeting") is possible but hardly seen
Anything in instances
DDO
No XP for killing mobs, but a lot of XP for an entire successfull campaign (aka "chained quests"). Also totally instanced.
Please: I do not say "this game is better and this is bad"... just examples of different concepts, nothing else.
I just want to find out, if so called "grind-games" with an open environment are more susceptible to these kinds of problems than games with different concepts.
Splatter, with all respect.... I didn't ask, how they should change LII and if this would work with LII...
I just want to find out, if so called "grind-games" with an open environment are more susceptible to these kinds of cheats than games with different concepts.
Ok, two examples:
CoH / CoV
No "items" per se, only "inf" to farm
"Grinding" (aka "streeting") is possible but hardly seen
Anything in instances
DDO
No XP for killing mobs, but a lot of XP for an entire successfull campaign (aka "chained quests"). Also totally instanced.
Please: I do not say "this game is better and this is bad"... just examples of different concepts, nothing else.
Ok, but you can purchase currency and what seems to be currency for both DDO and COH.
So games that are predominantly quest based do not stop such activities. LOTRO is the same and "is the same".
Ok, but you can purchase currency and what seems to be currency for both DDO and COH.
So games that are predominantly quest based do not stop such activities. LOTRO is the same and "is the same".
Ok, of course I realized that in these games, too. But I have never seen such armies of thousands in these and in others.
You tell me "they are there, too, you just can't see them due to the instances"?
OP: could you perhaps list those? Because I would then expect that there wouldn't be any RMT associated with them currently or that they are very old games perhaps?
You don't need botting for RMT. For example, you don't need botting to have AQ farmers, or to have Giran owners RMT selling the adena generated by the castle.
If you look in MMO history, you'll see that every tedious repetitive task trigger the need of automation. That may be in ressource gathering, quests completion or raise of XP.
It's a human reaction. If you design something that doesn't require human intelligence and must be repeated ad nauseam in order to reach the reward, it WILL be automated. The time it takes before it's automated depends on the size of the playerbase.
Now for cheaters (auto CP pots, radar, etc), some people don't accept a PvP system in its whole. For some, managing CP, HP, MP, targets and skills while staying coherent with what their parties are doing is too much. They just want to target an ennemy and shoot it down. Also, it doesn't help to have so classes which requires to stretch fingers on all the shortcuts (support classes).
Once they give up to the temptation to ease their task, it's generally too late to come back. In Teon's context, they realize it's become a necessity to compete. Only a few high level PvPers are 3rd-party-program-free, and generally only one radar in party is enough to ruin the game.
OP: could you perhaps list those? Because I would then expect that there wouldn't be any RMT associated with them currently or that they are very old games perhaps?
You don't need botting for RMT. For example, you don't need botting to have AQ farmers, or to have Giran owners RMT selling the adena generated by the castle.
That's very true, as evinced by the early days of L2 when the farmers were actually people.
If you look in MMO history, you'll see that every tedious repetitive task trigger the need of automation. That may be in ressource gathering, quests completion or raise of XP.
It's a human reaction. If you design something that doesn't require human intelligence and must be repeated ad nauseam in order to reach the reward, it WILL be automated. The time it takes before it's automated depends on the size of the playerbase.
Interesting point of view.
My interpretion of it would be:
"...so the days, when devs gave us another 'kill xxx of this and then kill yyy of that'-game and pretended, it is 'new and unique' are over. In their marketing-controlled minds to make anything the most simplest way they found their self fullfilling prophecy: The human player cannot and will not pay for '...must be repeated ad nauseam' and will find ways to avoid this.'
In other words:
We will see MMOs (relatively) free of cheaters, when the game pe se gives a normal human enough fun and challenge
during the run.
This would mean, that the devs would have to *develop* something new."
IMO, one of the main pbs lies in the fact that in Lineage II, you can buy everything !
From armor to weapons, from skill points (SP scrolls anyone ?) to mounts (Striders, Great Wolves), everything is tradable and buyable ! So, if you wanna have fun in a short period of time, the best way is to buy Adena, then you'll be able to buy your gear, skill points, clan levels, etc...
Here too, the late Star Wars Galaxies had a great way of getting rid of this problem : most of the high-level items (Jedi Robes, ...) could only be obtained by doing Quests, and were non-tradable (once you linked them to you, you couldnt transfer them to another character) !
So no bot could ever be interested in doing some long (but fun) Quest to obtain some stuff that he could not sell...
But that's the whole idealistic-but-not-humanly-realistic L2 economy system that would need to be changed...
I agree the solution is going to mean something non-conventional like untradeable items. You'll notice the Events more and more have had this sort of thing, though the clever marketeer knows how to get around that.
I really like the idea of getting items not from adena or from drops but from pointed quests and then not being able to trade them. This rewards people for hard work and acting in their role, while also denying the economies around people desperately impatient for power.
Well this idea was always one of the best - but it is neither new nor did any dev for whichever MMO take great care about it.
Sure, there are always again items in these games, which cannot be traded, sent, given. But these are a minority.
Another example (among many):
In AO were *many* items, which could only be acquired by looting certain mobs. One had to camp these mobs - some of them for weeks - until they spawned; then there was a 0,001% chance, that the specific item will drop.
Now everybody would say "great, if someone wants to to spend hours/days/weeks - it's up to him.
But: These items were not bound; they could be sold for ridiculous amounts of money.
Again one could say "well, if someone wants to spend a fortune just to have this item..."
But: Without these items, the corresponding classes were not really better than average.
So, if someone wanted to play the "high level game" and find acceptance among the other "elite"-players, (s)he must have the particular item (e.g. a special dagger for the "Shade", a special armour for the "MA" etc.).
Result: The "bored" high levels camped the lootmobs 24/7 and handed the items down to their "Twinks". This way, a level 100 with that item was more effective than a level 150, be it in PvP or in PvE.
Result 2: A 2-class-society; the "rich" and their twinks vs. the "poor"- Many dedicated players left the game because of these issues.
Question: Why didn't the devs do the obviously right thing and bind these "uberitems"? Why did they stand bye and watch, how the economy went down the drain, because of ridiculous pricing (e.g. said dagger could be sold for 900 Mill, while 1 Bil was the max a single char could hold)?
Now, this is an example of 2004. I am sure, there are many more MMOs with similar stories. Everywhere the same result:
Some elites and their twinks and the community of normal ppl, never ever having a chance to be better than average.
... as long as they play honest. But now the goldfarmers and the powerlevel-services come into play:
For a few bucks RL-money the average guy could suddenly afford all that... you all know, how this will go on.
All could have been avoided by the simple code "binds on acquisition".
Answer me please: Why will we see this never happen consequently (in every game are some "nodrops")?
I think that there is the 'uber based on gear' which is what most people use as their definition. There is also 'uber based on learning the game and being a person with your *** together', which is much more rare. And much more valid. And much more uber.
I think the reason that the uber bind was never done was fear of it completely destroying the sellable market. If all high end items bounded to a player you won't have anything to spend your adena on. :)
I think the reason that the uber bind was never done was fear of it completely destroying the sellable market. If all high end items bounded to a player you won't have anything to spend your adena on. :)
That's not always the case. Take FFXI as an example. The top high end gear requires you to get a non-tradeable (or multiple non-tradeable) drop(s) from quests and/or that game's equivalent of Epic bosses. You would then need to craft or buy specific items that an NPC would require to make your item wearable. This combines both the open economic aspect of the game with the questing/adventuring aspect for high-end gear.
If I understood correctly so far, then you told me:
1) Even in instanced MMOs we have this
2) These programs can "learn" to solve logic riddles
Ok, I didn't know this.
In the opinion I had until now, these cheat-programs look for ways to farm XP, money, items the most economic (=the simplest) way.
Would it be "profitable", if there were no XP at all "per kill" but only for completing the entire quest and the only "loot" would drop at the end of a chained quest, after killing the boss?
I'd love to post examples, but wouldn't that lead to a closed thread immediatley?
Ok the fault in your arguement is XP. RMT's do not care about XP at all except for maybe a small % of thier toons for high lvl content. Mostly they are low to middle lvls de-lvling constantly to stay in a range that maximizes returns. It's the game currency they care about the most.
"Bindable" items are only good if there is a way to "unbind" them and sell them. Otherwise, you have a much less lively economy - if you have one at all.
And yes, some of us play for the economical aspect of the game as well.
That would defy the purpouse.
Maybe add more things like the augmentations?
But then those additions would still allow you to play with them on the market using the things that bind them no? (see the stones in the case of augmentations)
So in the end you either bind them or not, anything in the middle is perfectly exploitable by our "friends".
The point is that, in the absence of a social fabric under which everyone gives up something in order to gain a common advantage, everything goes to hell. So, minimalist government guarantees that only those who lack ethical standards will thrive, because they will do anything to get ahead. Of course, the opposite extreme of maximalist government - as practiced most prominently by tin-horn third-world megalomaniacs - also causes everything to go to hell. ~ John O.
So in the end you either bind them or not, anything in the middle is perfectly exploitable by our "friends".
I'd go for "no binding" then, thanks. Empower your users.
Why do you insist that bound gear and an active economy are mutually exclusive? They can coexist, and do so well in a number of other games. There shouldn't be a choice between the two. There should be a combination.
My opinion, too. There should be enough "normal" items which are needed by everyone at all times. Thus, these items would always have their price on the market
(example from another game: Hides, cotton etc. for crafters)
and the numerous players who offer these goods would balance the market at the same time.
Conclusion until now:
I guess, we are at a point compareable with a RL-problem:
Whom should the governments fight? The drug-dealer or the ppl consuming drugs?
I'm pretty sure that nobody with a sane mind would say "we have to live with the drug-problem", right?
So, what could the correct player do against the permantently increasing community of cheaters?
IMO our "government" (=devs, GMs) give us evidence of their incompetence every single minute, when we must watch the armies of (more or less hidden) 3rd-party-program-users.
What can we do other than to say "we gotta live with that"?
I love how people are like OMG i wouldnt accept a THEIF or cheater irl omg!
how many people cheat irl? how many people steal irl? it happens deal with it, will happen in game, the asian playerbase in china needs to make a living mate, ive been there, they have a far better standard of life the ones who do that work than most of their fellow countrymen, its a nice job for students in university also over there.
Oh and i can actually see why someone would dump $1000 instead of wasting 1000 hours of their life to get the same result when they ahve busy lives and just want to have fun
So in the end you either bind them or not, anything in the middle is perfectly exploitable by our "friends".
I'd go for "no binding" then, thanks. Empower your users.
Why do you insist that bound gear and an active economy are mutually exclusive? They can coexist, and do so well in a number of other games. There shouldn't be a choice between the two. There should be a combination.
I didn't, read who wrote what - it was GabrielK who was excluding "the middle". I'm for a combination, as long as said combination leaves a thriving economy and non-bound, crafted items are as valuable to the players as bound ones.
I love how people are like OMG i wouldnt accept a THEIF or cheater irl omg!
how many people cheat irl? how many people steal irl? it happens deal with it, will happen in game, the asian playerbase in china needs to make a living mate, ive been there, they have a far better standard of life the ones who do that work than most of their fellow countrymen, its a nice job for students in university also over there.
Oh and i can actually see why someone would dump $1000 instead of wasting 1000 hours of their life to get the same result when they ahve busy lives and just want to have fun
Everyone is different
In other words:
For you it is totally ok
* if someone cheats
* if someone works for moneysellers
Furthermore you ask the "honest" playerbase to accept that.
Right?
Really, that point of view is beyond my comprehension.
The only difference between L2 and any sort of real world is that there are governments and police forces that are visible and enforcing the rules in the real world. In L2 the players are expected to police each other. Wolves guarding the sheep, as it were.
I know there are people employed by NCNA to enforce the rules and ban our automated friends, but they're not visible. Now this is a sneaky way to conduct the enforcement of the rules, but think of real life. The biggest part of having police vehicles that LOOK and STATE that they are police vehicles is to remind the populace that they are being watched. It's a deterrent. They also catch the ones that think they won't get caught and break the rules anyway.
Think of the guards in UO. They killed PKs and sometimes even kept reds out of towns. If you got caught thieving, you got guard-whacked. I'm not sure how adaptable that logic is such that it can look for automated behavior, but I wouldn't want an automaton evaluating my behavior anyway.
I think maybe extending the respawn rates in catas may help a little too. A good visible presence of enforcement to remind people along with the covert operations and bannings would help quite a bit, I think. I, too, like the idea that the augmented weapons not being tradeable/dropable. Maybe even a change to the higher level items such that augmentation destroys enchantment and you would have to enchant the items again. I dunno.
Governments are created by societies to protect its members. People shouldn't need visible police to not break the law. I police myself with my moral code and act accordingly.
Real life is hardly like that, people need police to be visible and active in order to fully respect the laws imposed. The moral code is a very flexible thing for most people. How far one is willing to bend it... well, that's why we have laws.
Luckly a sufficient number of people are willing to impose and uphold those self imposed laws to avoid anarchy.
The main thing that creates anarchy is the "survival of the fittest" instinct taken to extremes that creates discord and chaos. While competition is the best thing for evolution, excessive ambition (pride) can also lead to serios conflicts and war.
To start with my personal impression after about one week of intense gameplay, mainly on Teon:
1) Great game
2) Truckloads of content
3) Rather mature (forum-)community
4) Nevertheless a typical "asia-grind-game"
Point 4 is not meant as an offense; I was aware about this before I started to play. I personally don't mind to grind for my XP and my stuff, if there are some goals and motives.
And here starts my problem; now I must be very cautious to avoid certain key-words.
I guess, everybody will agree, when I say, that at least Teon is overrun by thousands 3rd-party-program-users.
When I read cross the board, this might also apply for other servers.
Why is this happening? (PLEASE go on reading! Don't post a reply NOW! :) )
I played other MMOs, where not a single case of that kind of abuse was ever seen and known.
What was the difference?
In these MMOs one did not get XP for killing a mob... XP could be achieved by solving quests and little campaigns ("chained quests").
Another MMO prevented the crafters from that desease just by letting the "craft-quest-NPC" move in a certain area: no biggie for a human player, but unsolveable for anything else.
Last example: Quests which require minimal logic input e.g. to put a round thingie into a round hole... cakewalk for a human player (at least for most of us...I guess?) but not to solve for an "artificial player".
Now I ask:
Is it the type of game ("hardcore grinder") which invites third-party-program-users? Is it the totally open environment which makes it so easy for all these farmers and exploiters to cheat?
Really, this is a serious question and should not turn into another "b...-thread". It is also not meant as criticism, because I personally like games with totally open areas and such. But if the price we pay for our "in-game-freedom" is this what we see when we log in, then I would reconsider.
Discuss! :)
imho your playing the wrong game if you want to change the pve content over the pvp.
So far the MMO Rappelz had/has the perfect solution to prevent automated players:
Have certain mobs on the field with the same names as the mobs around them, but can't be seen with the eye, so real players can't see them and thus won't attack them, but since automated players look at the data packets (i think?) they would attack a hidden mob among the non-hidden ones from time to time, and the GM's/Mod's can see in the logs which hidden mob is attacked by who, then these automated players would be sent to a certain "jail", for days or even weeks, where there is no way out other then to wait...